For me, the intense drama, Herculean legal action and international attention focused on one woman, Terry Schiavo, in an incapacitated state for 15 of her 41 years (doctors appointed by Florida courts to examine Schiavo say "persistent vegetative state," other physicians have questioned that diagnosis - nothing in this case is without rancor and contention), reminds me that ultimately we are a nation — and a government — of individuals, that every life truly does count, and that people of good will can intensely disagree over matters of conscience.…
Article comments
76 - Thad Anderson
In the newest USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll, Bush's approval rating dropped to 45%. "The new poll found the largest drop for Bush came among men, self-described conservatives and churchgoers."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-24-bush-poll_x.htm
Recently, I had a conversation about the Schiavo case with two of my friends from school, both of whom are Republicans who voted for Bush. They were appalled by Congress having a special vote on this case to get around the legal system, and by Bush's - for the lack of a better term - executive activism.
Now, I think my friends finally understand why I kept telling them "you guys up here in New York don't know what you're getting into with right-wing religious conservatives from the South." I think it's pretty offensive the way they're turning Terri Schiavo's situation into a simplistic "culture of life" vs. "culture of death" divide - actually, I should say that I think that's incredibly offensive - but if they want to keep doing the political equivalent of Napoleon's march into Russia, it's fine with me.
77 - Dave Nalle
Thad, you do understand that the poll you cite directly contradicts your conclusion, right?
As you describe it, the poll suggests that it's those southern religious, right-wing conservatives who have been alienated from Bush by the Schiavo business.
And from what I've seen, while there's a small, very outspoken extreme religious minority - the 'culture of life' people who are in the keep her alive camp, most of the rest of that camp are liberals who just can't accept the reality of death.
Dave
78 - Steve S
Wow Dave, who would have thought the Republican party is being fractured and torn apart because it is stepping on the toes of Separation of Powers just in order to placate liberals.
79 - Dave Nalle
It shouldn't be a surprise, Steve. When you have a party where one part places the Constitution higher than anything else and another part places the 'Culture of Life' first, when the two come into direct conflict that party is going to start having some problems.
It's just like the division in the Democrat party between socially conservative Catholics and Blacks and socially liberal northeaster intellectual elitists.
Dave
80 - Steve S
It shouldn't be a surprise, Steve. When you have a party where one part places the Constitution higher than anything else and another part places the 'Culture of Life' first, when the two come into direct conflict that party is going to start having some problems.
And which of these two factions of the Republican party are the camp of liberals again?
81 - DrPat
Shark, I'll place my vote right now for HST - he tops anyone still (nominally) living in the self-mutilation department!
Or "self mutilization," as the Google searchers find it...
82 - bhw
Dave, the "culture of life" part is the Republican party, not the Democrats. As we liberals all know, because we've been told so often, we have created a culture of death. We favor abortion rights and assisted suicide laws, aka, the culture of death.
Forget the Liberty, just give us Death!
83 - Dave Nalle
>>And which of these two factions of the Republican party are the camp of liberals again?<<
As I've said before I don't think this is a liberal/conservative issue at all. I imagine Liberal Republicans come down on both sides of the issue for religious reasons or personal reasons.
Dave
84 - Dave Nalle
>>Dave, the "culture of life" part is the Republican party, not the Democrats. <<
I never said it wasn't. But the point I keep making is that this characterization of the Republican party isn't accurate, and Thad's poll demonstrates it. Bush has lost support among Republicans because of his position on Schiavo. That means there are a significant number of Pro-Death Republicans he pissed off - or more likely Republicans who value due process and the Constitution higher than 'Culture of Life' issues.
And as I said before, there is a huge chunk of the Democratic party which comes down on the keep the veg alive side of this issue. All those Catholics and african american fundamentalists, and people who have personal reasons for believing there's a point in keeping her going.
This just doesn't break down along party lines. Maybe if it continues to be such a prominent issue it will force the party realignment which we need so badly.
Dave
85 - Temple Stark
You're confused Dave. The official reaction does and has fallen along party lines - with the very notable exception of the vote in the House of Representatives which was pathetic all around. Only 58 voted against it.
The public reaction, thankfully, is on the side of mercy and, of course, 81 percent or whatever crosses all kinds of cultural and religious boundaries, though probably not too many African American fundamentalists were polled.
86 - Dave Nalle
Temp. I'm just referring to the poll Thad quoted above which says that Bush's approval among conservatives dropped when he supported the unconstitutional attempt to intervene. That doesn't make me 'confused'.
You seem to agree that public opinion is strongly in favor of ending the whole farce, and support that broad has to cross party lines.
I can't believe I'm providing this link, but there's a rather good article on Democratic support for the unconstitutional intervention on the World Socialist WebSite sponsored by the 4th International of all groups.
CBS did a really comprehensive poll on the subject which shows how negatively people reacted to the congressional attempt to meddle in this mess. Although they clearly asked party affiliations they seem not to have bothered to compile most of their data on a party by party basis, though they say that opposition crosses party lines.
Dave
87 - Thad Anderson
Dave said: "Thad, you do understand that the poll you cite directly contradicts your conclusion, right? As you describe it, the poll suggests that it's those southern religious, right-wing conservatives who have been alienated from Bush by the Schiavo business."
Dave, you have a good point. Let me clarify what I mean. When I say "right-wing religious conservatives from the South," I'm not talking about I'm not talking about Southern political conservatives or Southern Protestants generally - or even politically conservative Southern Protestants.
I'm specifically talking about a subset: the "evangelical"/"born-again Christian" factions of the various Protestant denominations. The labels "evangelical" and "born-again Christian" are difficult to explain, and the media has struggled with this - after all, isn't all Protestant theology based on being reborn in Christ's love, and then spreading the message?
Yes and no. Although those are key aspects of Protestant theology in general, "born-again Christian" and "evangelical" have come to refer to a subset of people, some of whom belong to the traditional denominations (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.), but many of whom belong to newer denominations. My definition of "evangelical" or "born-again Christian" would mean people who are socially conservative, believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, put a heavy emphasis on being "born-again" (a personal transformation during adulthood, in which someone identifies a specific turning point as the moment when they were saved), and, finally, believe that they must advocate for Christianity having a strong role in larger society and government policies, as part of their evangelism.
In my observation/opinion, all of this "culture of life" vs. "culture of death" talk is an attempt to appeal to that base of evangelical Christians who came out and voted for Bush in November. So, while my earlier post may have sounded contradictory, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are probably a lot of churchgoers, including a lot of Southern Protestants, and even a good many politically conservative Southern Protestants, who do not value this symbolic battle over the rule of law and federalism, and do not think that an emergency meeting of Congress to overrule a state's high court was appropriate.
The other day, I overheard some people in the locker room here at my school in NYC, talking about the place of religion in society. At one point, one guy said "I understand that religion is important, but some of these people, like the Methodists, are crazy." I was taken aback, because the Methodist denomination is huge, politically diverse, and for the most part, very mild-mannered and middle-of-the-road. Calling Methodists "crazy" is kind of like calling Mr. Rogers a flashy dresser. Hopefully, as TIME and NEWSWEEK rush to put Southern Protestants on their covers, they'll take the time to learn about some of the nuances.
88 - Dave Nalle
The idea that methodists are crazy is not a new one. While they may seem mild if you're not familiar with them, they're pretty hard core. I know that our local methodist church are a bunch of scary zealots as bad as any fundamentalists in their way.
Dave
89 - Rob H.
And perhaps the definition of "evangelical" or "born-again Christian" should also include a "tendency to refuse to acknowledge that their view of religion may not be the only view - with a willingness to trample other people's rights to their own beliefs where they contradict - whose members include, frighteningly enough, Jebb Bush and George W. Bush."
There is another group who advocated "having a strong role in larger society and government policies, as part of their evangelism" - they were called the Taliban. Do you even remotely see the similarity?
There is a thing called separation of church and state, and it's there for a reason - and if all of the Southern Protestants were living in Afghanistan a few years ago, they would understand perhaps how dangerous an unequivocal alliance between Church and State can be...
90 - Thad Anderson
Well, there are definitely all kinds of congregations within the various denominations - and even all kinds of people within specific congregations. The Methodist church, in particular, is having a huge schism over gay marriage and other culture war issues.
My parent's church, which I grew up in, is the largest Methodist church in their city, and I would say that it spans most of the range of North Carolina's political spectrum - some born-again Christians, some politically-conservative-but-not-evangelical Christians, and a lot of more moderate and liberal Christians. If I took the guy who called Methodists crazy to that church on a Sunday, I'm afraid he'd be very disappointed.
91 - Rob H.
..not to in any way derrogate everyone's rights to religious freedom, and the right to vote their concience which derives from those beliefs - however, too often I see the extreme right referring to the rules of god AS THEY BELIEVE THEM TO BE - being incorporated into the rule of the land... and just as they would be offended by extreme Muslim beliefs being made law - so should they understand concern about their belief systems being made law.
92 - Eric Olsen
I agree with Thad that's it's pretty pointless to generalize about entire denominations
93 - rose
this is such a sad story about terri it makes you wonder why are goverment dose not come in with the army and help were all killers and there is no help for are own people what is now in gods hands will be on the people own sins for killing a inocent person were killing her now as i write and there is no help for this person this is so wrong i don't know how a judge can kill her and then let the people on death row still be feed and taken better care of yes we treat the killers and rappers better then this we should all now be guilty of just letting terri die
94 - Eric Olsen
we are too kind to killers and rappers
95 - HW Saxton
And English as a second language folks.
96 - Bennett Dawson
And no-punctuation-whatsoever folks.
But hey, thanks to rose, I feel better about myself.
:-D
97 - Geo
The poor thing. This is such a sad, sad story. With many lost souls, not shedding the least bit of compasion for the girl, let alone her beloved family, who are deeply affected by the tragedy of it all. And some of you have the audacity to mock and joke.
One truth can be wrought from this whole experience. Our government has ceased to be a democratic republic and is in reality an appellate system of government. I guess the unelected justices on the various tiers of the judical branch, make or break the laws, the moral code, the wishes of the people. Why aren't they called on it? As I recall from civic's class, or gov, or whatever... the system was set up as a series of checks and balances. I guess all the text books and the spine-less House of representatives, along with the executive branch... didn't have the same text book as I did.
Clearly, through checks and balances this could have been settled.
Or, perhaps everyone wished this woman to die... they just didn't expect it to over 2 weeks.
98 - Tristan
I don't agree with Rose's position RE:terri schiavo --
but does that make you all feel better to make fun of her like that?
Seriously--I thought we were supposed to deal and respond to the ISSUES and not the personalities here.....
and I'd think making fun of someone because of their spelling, punctuation, and or english as a "second language" might be a little benaeath people who are more gifted and better educated; otherwise what good IS a "better" education--if it makes us meaner , you know?
maybe there is something wrong with our education "system" if this is what it does to us......
like i said-- I think the opposite of Rose on the Schiavo position--but she seemed very sincere and well-meaning in what she wrote....
99 - gonzo marx
to Geo...
i'm afraid i must disagree on your assessment of "checks and balances" NOT working..
i believe it has worked in exactly the way it was intended..
the original Court case determined that Terri's wish was to NOT be kept alive under these circumstances..
you can feel however you desire about that sentiment...but we are speaking about just the Law and the system here..
Florida Law..as written by the state legislature is VERY clear in these circumstances, and once the Judge determined that the facts bore out the testimony of the husband and two other Witnesses , along with the medical facts found by impartial, Court appointed experts from more than one field...he made his Ruling..
due process took the Case thru the Court system...up to the Supreme Court of the United States not taking the case over a year ago..after further appeals on different ground also going thru the system..as well as an Injunction from the Governor of the State at one point...it went back to the original Judgement
where the System could have broken the intended Rules of checks and balances involved would have been if the illegal intervention by the Federal government had changed the outcome of the Court's ruling...
from a completely legal standpoint i am very happy that the federal courts and the 11th circuit apellate Court have upheld the Ruling of the lower court
now..personally..i feel deeply for both sides of this very difficult Issue..
but the System worked...those that are NOT happy with the outcome..for whatever their Motives...shoudl at least face the Reality that EVERYTHING was done exactly according to the Rule of Law
i say it again..the System WORKED in this case...step back and view it with some Objectivity and i believe you will agree..
cold comfort to the grieving Family, i know...but a good example of what it means to live under the Rule of Law..
for those that feel this was some kind of miscarriage of Justice done by "activist judges" etc..
i would ask you to re-examine and define your terms..
an "activist judge" would have been one that OVERTURNED the lower court's Ruling..since such action would have had NO basis in Florida Law as it has been written by the duly elected Legislature
so, Geo..i would suggest that perhaps you should go back to the "textbooks" you mention..and read them over a bit more carefully...setting aside emotional coloring..and examine the FACTS presented therein...
Excelsior!
100 - Madspirit
You heterosexuals are always so much about marriage and family. Well...the law says the spouse is the legal next of kin. One of the main reasons I fight so hard for us...gays and lesbians...to be able to marry...is because I want my girlfriend to make the difficult decisions...not some red-necked relative. Terry Shaivo's husband has the right to make this decision...and if it were the other way...the conservatives would be supporting the husband. ...but...things don't go their way and they become the obvious hypocrits they really are. What the parents are doing is not humane or out of just pure love. It's painful to lose a child...the hardest thing on the planet...I've heard...but you don't take your brain-dead child...prop them up...and call them "Alive". They talk about how she could improve. Well..she's been in this state for 15 years. When is this amazing improvement going to start? This is pathetic and lewd. ...and the woman had a RIGHT to die...not be propped up like a house plant. Grow up people.
Madspirit
101 - apckrfan
Not to mention the patients at the Hospice who had to live out their final days, take their final breaths to the noise of protests who had no business being there to begin with. If every death that resulted because an artificial feeding tube or other form of life support were pulled people would have very little to do with their time.
Couple that with the fact that loved ones were denied entry or delayed entry into the Hospice and missed the death of their loved ones ...
It was a tragic situation. Her husband had the right to do what he did. Would it not have been easier to 8 years ago when he found out there was nothing to be done for her to give up and let her parents have her? It would have saved him a lot of headache and heartache.
But he didn't do that. So that leads me to believe that he truly believed she would not have wanted to be kept in this state. I sure wouldn't and it would upset me to have to see my once vivacious and upbeat child in that position.
Spouses and significant others discuss things with one another that they do not with their parents or siblings. Not to mention her parents have been quoted as saying they would do whatever it took to keep her alive, including amputing body parts.
I am a parent and I am a parent who has lost a child. Would I do anything to get him back? Yes, but would I want him kept alive in such a state? No!
If nothing else comes out of this situation, I hope that everyone will if not get a living will but at least go beyond telling their better half of their wishes. Tell your parents, tell your siblings, so there is no question.
102 - Madspirit
As I've already stated, I support Michael Shaivo and his right to make this decision for his wife. I think it is obscene and pathetic and CRUEL to pretend this woman is cognitive of anything. They should have let her die years ago.
However, I think it is unkind and unneccessary to make fun of Rose for her opinion, her spelling, her grammer. She feels strongly and her feelings obviously come from the heart. I do not see how mocking her could make anyone feel better. It's a plainly asshole thing to do.
Madspirit
103 - sydney
agreed.
two questions;
If you were told you would be in a vegatative state by morning and would have no cognitive or very little cognitive ability, would you prefer to live or die?
Personally, if I had no cognative ability, I would choose to die without question. Why would I want to sit and stair at a wall for the next 40 years. That would be hell.
If I did have cognative ability, I would DESPERATLEY want to die. Being concious of my life and citing incapacitated stairing into space for 40 fucking years? Give me a fucking break!!!! This is beyond humane. Absolute torture.
2) Some people refuse to accept the inevitability of death. When a person can not support one or more of their body systems on their own, and are rendered unable to feed themselves and require life support as did MRs. Shaivo, then people must accept they the natural course is for them to die.
It is not the job of science to keep a heart beating untill the tissue eventually desintegrates. Give me a fucking break. This is soooooooooo common in the hospitals these days. Wher unconcious victims are constantly ressucitated over and over and had the victim any ability to speak they would be saying.. "FOR GOD SAKES< JUST LET ME DIE!!!!!"
People in western cultures need to get real and come to terms with our own mortality.
104 - Madspirit
I agree with most of what you say. If I was totally cognitive...I don't know. Look at Stephen Hawking..a man I adore. He can move nothing...do nothing...but his mind is still brilliant and he still contributes greatly to our collective knowledge. Shaivo was not cognitive of anything.
Madspirit
105 - sydney
"What would Jeusus do?"
-- Who the fuck cares? JEsus doesn't have jurisdiction over everyone in America. If anyone let Jesus, or thier interpretation of JEsus, determine my fate I'd be real pissed!
In any case, if Jesus, were here to chyme in on the debate, he'd probably tell us to mind our own fucking business and let the family decide it amoungst themselves.
Jesus never had anything to say about constitutes death. Thank god.
YEt again the hard core Christians make me sick to my stomach. Pompous pricks!
106 - sydney
Stephen hawking is not in a vegatative state. Far from it...
and he has full (nay, fullest) cognative ability
107 - Madspirit
That IS what I said...that Hawking is fully cognitive. I was responding to the guy who said he would not want to stay alive even if cognitive...IF his body did not work.
Madspirit
108 - sydney
ya I realize you said that he was cognative.
I was merely suggesting that because he is Fully cognative (as you say), he is not relevant to the discusion. He can communicate his own wishes, carry move himself, talk etc..
And I was also saying that he is not in a vegatative state. he has control over the movment of some of his body.
I just didnt want you to use him as a comparison because, to me they're are not comparable.
109 - Madspirit
Yes..Shiavo and Hawking are not comparable. ...but it is relevant in responding to the guy who said he wouldn't even want to be alive if fully cognitive but without functioning body. I love Hawking and would not have brought him into the discussion except to point out to that guy that some might think there is a reason to live...without body but with brain.
Madspirit
110 - Eric Olsen
doesn't he type with his eyebrows?
111 - Madspirit
Hee
Madspirit
112 - sydney
actually he types by burping. Between his assistant and himself, they have worked out a sort of morsecode language.
113 - Linda
How can you say it cost the family nothing to keep her alive. They weren't paying for the hospice? Somewhere I read that the settlement money that Michael Schiavo got for Terri's care went for her care and the lawyers.
114 - Eric Olsen
Medicare had been covering it for some time
115 - gonzo marx
Eric O sez...
*Medicare had been covering it for some time*
excellent point..which brings me to another problem i have with DeLay et al
the same folks that were screaming about all this are the very SAME folks that rammed thru "tort reform" that would limit the damages from lawsuits such as the one cited here as well as the gutting of Medicare which has been covering here care in the hospice
anybody else smell the Hypocrisy here?
Excelsior!
116 - Joyce
The money won to provide care for Terri because her life expectancy was 50 years,Michael was allowed by the Court(Greer )to use it to pay for HIS attorney (Felos and others ) to kill her. Whats wrong with this picture? He didn't even mention Terri wanted to die at the malpractice hearing, it was seven years later,right after he met Jodi he conveniently remembered Terri wanted to dehydrate to death. Yeah right.
This whole thing with DeLay is a smoke screen to take attention away from the corruption in Florida Courts , DCF, the legislature and God knows where else.
Terri was murdered by the Judicial branch of Government and all the rest just sat on their back side.
117 - Eric Olsen
the courts merely followed the law - perhaps the law should be changed