Sex fiends, malodorous misfits, old timers with control issues, making amends to jerks - AA's enough to drive you to drink!
RELIGIOUS CULT OR PSYCHOPATH MAGNET?
I'm not an alcoholic, though I played one in the "rooms." Mind you, I used to throw 'em back with the best of them, but then I just became a craven pothead who can hardly ever even score any. My boyfriend Bowleg Guy (BG) and I went to AA for 14 months because he's got himself some drinking problems. The results are in, and they're not pretty. Here's four reasons we finally "just said no" to the fellowship without looking back:…
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Article comments
26 - Elvira Black
Margaret:
Thank you for the reality check. Although I've gradually developed some regular readers via my persoal blog, the fact remains that BC gets about three times as many hits each day as I have amassed in 8 or 9 months of blogging.
This post was my very first one on Shithouse rat, and thus did not have many readers. In fact, I went out and "pimped" for the few readers I did get by visiting an anti-AA site.
Since I love to give and receive comments, it also made sense to me to take advantage of another forum which encourages and values comments, perhaps as much as the posts themselves.
27 - Elvira Black
Tim:
Many thanks--I'll check out the link you mentioned, and congrats on your novel as well.
Nancy:
One of the reasons BG eventually "went out" is because he really began to see AA as a religious cult. Every meeting concludes with the Serenity Prayer which includes the word G-d. Some meetings ended with the Lord's Prayer, which is specific to Christianity, and assumes that the Lord is male (Our Father...).
I also have trouble with the concept of being powerless over one's "disease." Some AAs explain their lapses and missteps by saying that "my disease was talking to me." I think the mindset that one cannot conquer an addiction save for a Higher Power takes some of the responsibility away from the individual.
Life is full of difficult struggles, and I believe that in most things we do, we get out what we put in. Those who are truly determined to stop drinking can--some with the help of AA, and some by other means, but always by owning up to their personal responsibility in the matter. I also do not think that drinking excuses one from immoral behavior.
28 - Elvira Black
Roller:
Frankly, it amazes me that someone who has read my entire blog would not recognize a new entry (or seven new entries) here. It also astounds me that you would never have posted one comment on either site until now, and that the one you did post seemed only an attempt to belittle and chastize me. I suspect that the only reason you are "apologizing" now is because others brought up the point that double posting at BC is perfectly acceptable.
However, if I am wrong in my assumptions, I apologize as well. I'm glad you enjoy my writing, but I also believe that comments are half the point of blogging, and I try to take sufficient time to comment to other's posts and respond to those on mine. I do plan to continue to post new pieces here as well--as many as I can muster.
29 - Elvira Black
BTW:
A BG/Elvira drinking horror story can be found here--though it was swiped from my own blog (lol)...
30 - gypsyman
Cheers Elvira for an honest assesment of one person's dealing with AA. The part of AA I never could get, and why I never partook, was surrendoring myself to a higher power.
That's what I had been doing for the twenty years of substance abuse, surendering myself to something else, why in the hell would I want to continue doing that? Great become addicted to god or whatever spiritual thing they were selling that day, instead of booze and drugs, no thanks.
Spirituality helps one overcome addiction if you like the comfort it can provide. But unless you're willing to own up to who you are, and stop surendering, your just trading one crutch for another.
I'm no saint or hero because I stopped abusing drugs and booze, it was something I had to do if I was ever wanted to deal with all the shit I was running away from. Nobody, be it a judge or court order or shrink is going to get you to sober up unless you want to...
I spent time in a halfway house where everybody but me was taking part in enforced AA meetings. It was amazing how many of them would show up pissed when they returned from day passes, or were smoking pot in the cans...
I've got nothing against AA or groups like that, but they are not the only choice. I hope BG can find the demons that drive him and face them down, it sounds like he wants too and knows they are there which is the bravest thing any person can do.
Don't let anybody tell him or you otherwise, we all have to move at our own pace, and going into those dark places inside of us is the scaries journey we have to make...good luck to both of you and hold on to your sense of humour, that serves you better than just about anything else.
gypsyman
31 - Elvira Black
Gypsyman:
Thanks for the terrific comment, which to my mind sums it all up beautifully--and from the point of view of someone who's been there, done that, and found his own way--as we all must, I think.
32 - Elvira Black
Note to Tim:
Heard the podcast; read the excerpt from "Half-Empty"--superb! I asked the powers that be to add your book to the other two displayed before the comments, which they have done--and I plan to buy it as well.
33 - batsmore03
Frankly I agree with you Elvira. Were we in the same meetings? When I went, the people were friendly at first but that didn't last long. I was having to travel 50 miles round trip from our home and they expected me to be there each meeting. I got a life other then spending my time there three to four times each week.Some of the people there were nasty smelling and just grossed my wife & I out. We at the time were trying to raise children and had to find sitters each time we went. We were not about to take them with us to the meetings. I worked as a carpenter and was always to tired to sit thru listening to people say the same thing nite after nite. We were expected to give money each night or we got some evil looks from the other members. Then there were those that wanted rides all the time-usually the smelly ones that acted like they were drunk at the meetings. It was not a good experience for us at all. It just wasn't for us. My wife stayed by my side thru the whole thing and I hated to put her thru that so I stopped going. I would leave the meetings and wanted to go get drunk just from having to go thru the mess. It might be good for others and thats great. If people can get together and talk to total strangers about their bad habits and it help them- thats great. Not for me though. I never went back but did stop on my on and still don't get drunk to this day. That was around 15 years ago. Now I'm working on stopping smoking but will not go to any type of support groups. That experience was my lesson on support groups-they are not for everyone. Specially not me. Even the on line chat rooms that are suppose to help people are ridiculous. They mostly talk crap and I won't go there for help anymore either. I have learned to help myself and have my best friend to support me- my wife.
34 - Elvira Black
batsmore03:
Were we at the same meetings? Hey, you never know--lol....congrats on being able to stop without AA--though many of its members would have one believe it's well-nigh impossible to do so.
That sucks that you had to go through so much and had to endure such a negative experience with creepy people. I'm assuming someone had mandated you to go, which I think very seldom works. Sounds like your wife has been a very postiive influence and support system for you. I'm so happy to hear it's worked out so well.
Ah yes, the smoking...I'm battling that too. Used to be the meeting rooms were as smoky as any bar, but now in NYC you can't light up in either place--just as well, though, right? LOL... Many thanks for your comment!
35 - Doc-Rods
Well as someone who is recovering thru AA/CA, I think some of you are commenting on something you know little about nor havw made any effort to overcoem your own prejudices to try and understand, but, what the hell, that's what the net is for eh?
Commenting about other people's personal failings- well, isn't that just pride, selfishness and arrogance? May a (higher power/God of your own understanding)bless you, if spouting bile makes you feel a little happier, fair enough, that's your way, but I'll stick with the fellowship.
Ps... GOD ! Fuck me I'll bet that word spooks the lot of you eh? lol
36 - Elvira Black
No rest for the weary...or the crazy...sigh...
Figures I'd come back on the i'net after 9 months off due to circumstances partly outta my control and the first thing I see is a comment from some troll who doesn't even know how to spell (I think he got "fuck me" right, but I think I'll pass on the thought (shudder)...
Yawn...haven't you got some recovery work to do? Like making amends to all the folks you undoubtedly messed up, fucked over, and (of course) harassed and annoyed?
Thanks for one more kick in the ass from cyberspace...where do I go to, ladies and gentlemen, to get one moment of respite?
Alright, I absolve you of your "sins" and bad spelling, grammar, syntax and manners...
Now say twelve serenity prayers and read the twelve steps (no, better yet, write them out) twelve times...you are forgiven, my child...I have communicated with Doctor Bob and Bill W themselves and they applaud you.
Hey, take the plank outta your own eye before you get into anyone else's program, aye?
Another AA Nazi? Sigh...don't quit yer day job (alright, I'll quit...sarcasm can be quite addictive when your life's been threatened a few times in the real (not virtual) world, but I digress...
37 - Elvira Black
Christopher, still comments editor? This fercockta PC (oh how I miss my Mac-he local public library doesn't even let me see if/when a comment has been published...just as passive agressive as every ex boyfriend I've ever had the displeasure to deal with....
Help! Damsel in distress (well, I've tried everything else; even my ex's are afraid to enter my lovely 24 hour gated community now...
As Bob D said back in the day, don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.
Blowing chunks, that is, and I ain't even hung over.
Boy, sure did miss you guys...including the last comment...how safe to have a battle of wits (and twits) in the virtual world. Safe 'n' cozy...
Wow, I need a drink (not an alcoholic, so don't even start)....or do...but may not get back online for another dog's age, depending...
But hey guy, seriously, thanks for the comic relief. A good straight man is hard to find...
38 - bliffle
Elvira,
Welcome back.
39 - Ruvy
Elvira,
My computer crashed a while ago, and I lost your e-mail address. If you are still on-line, go to my blogsite (at the URL), find my e-mail addy and give me a holler.
I've missed you.
Ruvy
40 - zachjones82
i just started AA, been sober 36 days and all of a sudden seeing all this negative, horror stories, leave your wife stories. i always thought my sponsor asking "90 for 90" was a little unrealistic and stupid, but hey "i'm new" "listen to your sponsor no matter what" maybe i'm paranoid but sometimes it feels like a cult to me. what would your take be? plz help.
-zach
41 - Elvira Black
Hi Zach:
Thanks firstly for giving "legs" to one of my oldest posts (lol). But on a more serious note, here's my take:
BG and I went to many an AA meeting years ago. I am not an alcoholic, but have had my substance issues and ironically I think the experience did more for me than him in the long run.
At first I was too shy to "share," but eventually as I grew more comfortable started to participate in the groups. After the one-year mark, one day when BG was chairing a downtown Manhattan meeting I told him I was ready to tell my story.
The "miracle" of this was that prior to that my fear of public speaking prevented me from pursuing my lifelong dream of becoming a university professor. But having been around other people in the meetings, some of whom were horrible, some of whom were extremely nice, and everything in between, I just started to talk and it all came out naturally, as if I were just talking with BG instead of a crowd of strangers and near-strangers. AA helped me connect with others and bring me out of my shell. That was a good thing.
The negatives of AA, to my mind, are many. BG and I reached our one year annivesary to much fanfare, but about two months later BG was on his way to chair a meeting in Manhattan when he turned heel and went off to use. I begged him not to, but of course being the dutiful co dependent I went along for the ride.
Shortly thereafter he decided to quit again, and so it was on and off for a bit. I felt "powerless" because if he were sober, I was, and if he got drunk, I drank. Yes, I enabled him and vice versa. But I really did beg him to reconsider the day he just relapsed.
It had been building for quite awhile. IMHO, BG had been white knuckling/pink clouding it for a year. He went overboard in volunteering to help, thus building up resentments, as he was warned by some in the group. We went to a lot of meetings in the Bronx and lower Manhattan, and he'd made a commitment to chair downtown, as I said, that he later couldn't handle. He's often said that he thinks he sabotaged himself by overcommitting, and realized that he had serious personality clashes/issues with some of the folks in the groups. He is very sensitive and would rather avoid a group than try to deal indefinitely with difficult, manipulative people.
And, sadly, AA is full of them. Since there are not admission dues or criteria for membership, the rooms are full of some sincere people as well as lots of sociopaths, those mandated to come, thieves, liars, and other lowlives.
And then there's what someone I know used to call the "AA Nazi's": people who can't wait to tell you how to do your program; that it's "not the way we do it here," what you're doing wrong, what you should be doing, offering unsolicited "help," and so on.
There are people who turn AA into their new "drug of choice," and since for some it is the first sense of accomplishment they use it to weild their "power" and "influence" onto newbies. Even one of the exalted founders allegedly was all over the young new female members; and the other died an alcoholic. So the founders that are held up almost as gods have feet of clay. As they say, whether we've had two days or 20 years sober, we are all just one drink, one hairsbreadth away from the next drink, which is a great equalizer for those who are wise and humble and who have done some work for others in the rooms.
The upshot of all this is that BG got clean and sober all on his own. Maybe he was just getting too old--some people "grow out" of their alcoholism--and he found a good support program at the VA, where he was tested regularly for urines. He has, knock wood, been clean and sober about two years without benefit of a meeting. It was his time to "get it," do the work needed to stay sober, get a "life" so drinking was not his "life," take care of himself physically and psychologically, etc.
But yes, the rooms are full of psychopaths, people on power trips whose only sense of satisfaction comes from telling others what to do; criminals looking to, as one guy said "scheme for some cream;" court mandated folks, as well as the revolving door drunks who always come back after a two or three day or week or month bender and get the applause for having one day back as if they had swum the English Channel or won the Nobel Prize. I'm all for group support, but some people just use it as a refuge; a place to go between drunks to get "strokes" and "forgiveness."
Many in AA have serious "character defects," but like to blame "the disease" for their actions. This, IMO, takes away the whole issue of personal responsibility and makes every horror store acceptable and even "honored" by the group.
But if someone has an immoral character--if they've not only been a drunk but stolen, cheated, lied, been in DWIs, blackouts, hurt or left their family or job, and so on, I don't think they "deserve" a free ride esp if they are recidivists who just come to AA when they want to be "forgiven their sins."
Well, I could go on, but you get the pic. AA can be a very useful tool, but I personally wouldn't put too much reliance on a sponsor to "tell me what to do," considering said sponsor is just another drunk with more sober time than you. Yes, some people who are basically sheep treat the original tenets with reverent fanaticism, not realizing that the program was originally founded in the 30s, and we are in another century so some of the old rules and tenets of the Big Book simply don't apply in the same way. To treat the Big Book as gospel and the founders as saints is, well, nonsensical.
One other thought: a lot of people are making a lot of money off of using the AA model, including most detox programs, work related benefits (i.e. if someone at work is having a drinking problem, they might mandate them to go to a rehab, AA, or other AA based program.) The AA "industry" makes milllions, (well, probably billions) of dollars and employs a lot of people who use the tenets of AA in their rehab positions. And what exactly happens to all those dollars that go into the basket, which in some places is passed around twice in one meeting?
OK Zach, please feel free to write back and explain your dilemma in more detail. I hope this helped somewhat. AA has helped a great many people, but it is not a cure all, and people have to have some personal responsibilty and not allow others to manipulate them for either "positive" or negative reasons of their own.
42 - Martine
This is very silly. 12 step programs are usually very respectful of personal choices. I attended a 12 step program as a part of a court agreement. I am not a Christian, and my beliefs are very far off the base they use. I explained several things to them, including the fact that my belief system did not really encourage second guessing myself in such a way that I would want to try to come up with ways I have harmed people. I believe that whatever decision I made at the time (right or wrong) I made for a reason. They didn't exactly like it, but they made no attempt to belittle me. When they realized i was only going to take certain things from the course, and leave others, they treated my decision with total respect. I am very glad to have been given the chance to meet other people with the same problems, and to hear of their stories. I am also grateful to have been given the time to straighten things out with their support. There is no program that will fir everyone perfectly, but I don't think this one is harmful.
43 - Dog-Matt-ich
It's any wonder Elvira's comments and observation and witticisms have legs all these years, it's at least because she's a sharp cookie and a fine writer, too. Thanks for sharing the experiences you and BG underwent on the journey to gaining some balance in your lives. I've enjoyed a lot of the comments your blog here has attracted, thought there are, too, many which remind me of the refuge one can find in the Aristotealain notion that: the aim of good art is to purge bad emotion.
The scope of my comment here remains complimentary, so I'm severely limiting my comments. After rehab and many months of dogged, well, slavish adherence to the principles of recovery the AA way, there came a day not too long ago I simply stopped and go go no further with "THE PROGRAM." My mind closed like a bear trap because I realized that AA did not offer me the kind of recovery I want for my life. In fact, it is so counter to the grain of my fundemental aspirations in life as to be counter-productive to continue with meetings or to have any direct personal association with AA.
AA did get me to a point where my head is clear enough to make that decision. I have no bones about it, it helped, but there's a cultural component shot through that help which, to me, is most decidedly unhelpful. I find it echoed here in Elvira's blog; also, for a historical reference I start it again in my mind with Ms. Vowel's recent book "The Wordy Shipmates."
Thanks again Elvira for a wonderful post, I'll be sure to keep you in mind when my loose sight of my own sanity!