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Satire: Bush Won Iraq War Four Years Ago – Freedom Reigns

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Four years ago today, on May 1, 2003, combat operations in Iraq ended. That nation is now a thriving democracy in a peaceful Middle East where freedom bells chime.

The event was marked in a speech by President Bush on the deck of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln. Arriving in the back of an S-3 Viking which landed on the carrier, Bush spoke in front of a large banner which announced "Mission Accomplished" and began the speech by declaring an end to major combat operations in Iraq.

"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed," Bush declared. He also noted the destruction of the Taliban in Afghanistan. "You are homeward bound," Bush said to the men and women aboard the Abraham Lincoln.

And, like a dream, it all turned out exactly as the President said. The banner was perhaps a premonition. Like World War II, it all ended on the deck of a mighty ship. The symbolism was acute. The U.S. was again secure, thanks to the acumen of her President. The May 1 speech was a moment for free people everywhere, and especially for George W. Bush.

American marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen returned home and grew old with their families. They watched their children grow old with them. They drove their cars on lazy trips and barbecued under hazy suburban skies.

Once the mantle of tyranny was removed, Iraq became a healthy model of democracy in the Middle East. The oppressed peoples in neighboring countries heard the beckonings of freedom, responded, and set it loose across the entire Middle East. Iran's days of sponsoring terrorism and seeking nuclear weapons ended. Israelis and Palestinians live side-by-side in a two-state solution long advocated by President Bush. People do love to be free.

All this goes back to that fateful speech by our stalwart President. His bold vision, enacted at short notice, with only the slightest logistical thought, with merely a moment's logical reflection, has changed the world forever. It all started with Iraq. Indeed, Americans were able to wage war and go shopping at the same time. Iraqi oil revenues paid for it all.

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  • Zedd

    Ah wasn’t that a great day. I still get misty eyed when I look back. Indeed Iraq is the example of liberty and democracy not only for the region, but for the world. Forget Truth and Reconciliation we stand firm on the “Mission Accomplished” process for nation building. Who knew that that is what it takes. What a man!!!

    I think it was that moment that united our country, red states and blue states, all holding hands to support this great man, our leader, our President, we ALL ran to the polls supporting him in droves and anyone and anything that is associated with him!!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    I sometimes wonder why leftists crow so loudly and so often about their own country’s hardships and struggles. And then I remember that they are leftists, and it all becomes clear.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Yet another content-free post from RJ. Why not just go back to mocking Democrats’ physical appearance?

    People are laughing at you and the rest of the right who still support a man who had a chance to put on the flight suit FOR REAL and fight in a war he supported but wouldn’t risk his life for. But when he got a chance to play “pretend pilot,” he couldn’t wait. That performance would have been disgusting even if what he said that day was true, that the war was over.

    It is more disgusting now that 3000 more seats at 3000 more dinner tables in the US will be empty tonight because of his war.

  • MCH

    “I sometimes wonder why leftists crow so loudly and so often about their own country’s hardships and struggles.”

    And I sometimes wonder why rightists crow so loudly and so often when it comes to sending someone else in harm’s way, instead of fighting their own battles.

  • Arch Conservative

    “It is more disgusting now that 3000 more seats at 3000 more dinner tables in the US will be empty tonight because of his war.”

    Yet liberals such as yourself have had no problem murdering millions of babies in the last 30 years Leslie.

    Your lame “3000 dinner table” remark pales in comparison to the the number of cribs that will go empty this year thanks to leftist ideology that says it’s ok to murder a baby if you call it “choice.”

    You have absolutely no moral authority to lecture to anyone who may have supported this or still supports this war when you can dismiss millions of dead babies without a second thought.

  • Wild Bill Hiccup

    Terminating unwanted pregnancies has nothing in common with sending young men and women overseas, under false pretences, to murder foreigners, including men, youths, girls, women, pregnant women and newborn babies.

  • MBD

    “Terminating unwanted pregnancies has nothing in common with sending young men and women overseas, under false pretences”

    There is something in common.

    Both are wrong.

    However, abortions are premeditated murder and going into the Iraq war is a lot of things but it isn’t overt murder.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Bill, I’m curious if you can actually DEFINE the word ‘murder’.

    Dave

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Conservative:

    I know you can’t produce any arguments actually supporting the war, so I don’t blame you for changing the subject. Of course, I’ve never mentioned my position on abortion here, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

    I find your dismissal of my lamenting the 3000+ dead soldiers as “lame” reflects not only a pretty severely truncated vocabulary and poor command of the language, but also an amazingly callous lack of respect for the people who sacrificed for your war.

  • Franco

    #6 — Wild Bill Hiccup

    Terminating unwanted pregnancies has nothing in common with sending young men and women overseas, under false pretences, to murder foreigners, including men, youths, girls, women, pregnant women and newborn babies.

    You’re right about this WBH. Here is specifically where there is no connection.

    Every last one of the 3351 killed US military personel over the post 4 years in Iraq all volinterred to be put in harms way. And not a single one of the 6,000,000 terminated babies in the US over these same 4 years volunteered to be put in harms way.

    #9 — Leslie Bohn

    I’ve never mentioned my position on abortion here, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

    Yes you do. AC is not changing the subject, he is making a correlation which you clearyly are trying to duck. Why? It could make one think you are amazingly callous about the terminated babies.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Franco:

    Please do not endeavor to tell me what I know. This is rude. My position on abortion has no bearing on a discussion of Bush’s war, which has killed 3000+ American military personnel. Your logic is faulty here.

    You don’t know me, and to suggest I am “callous” about “babies” is awful. What kind of a person would attack a stranger like that? What the fuck is the matter with you? You wouldn’t say that to me in a bar or in a restaurant or in a classsroom or any other face-to-face forum. And of course, since I’ve never expressed an opinion on the topic, the suggestion is particularly stupid.

    Care to address the actual topic? It’s up there at the top of the post: A draft-dodging President who dressed up like a real little pilot and declared the war over 4 years ago?

    I repeat: 3000+ empty seats at 3000+ dinner tables.

    I note your theory that if people volunteer for the military, they deserve to die. This is the clear logical implication of your statement comparing the “innocent” with the “volunteers.” I urge you to reconsider this statement.
    I look forward to hearing your opinions of the president’s actions.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Arch:

    Leslie is quite justified in calling you out for trying to introduce a red herring here. The abortion debate and the Iraq war are entirely separate issues, and trying to invalidate someone’s position on one by assuming their converse position on the other is a logical fallacy.

    I could just as easily ask why you are opposed to abortion but seem to have no problem with the death penalty (which I am 99% certain you support).

  • http://www.thirdeyepublications.com Thirdeye

    In response to the typical ridiculousness of pro-war folks ranting about abortion I will post a letter to the editor I wrote that pretty much sums up my feelings on so-called moral fallacies.

    The sick priorities of the so called “pro-life” factions in this country are evidenced in a recent message popping up on bumper stickers and billboards. An ultrasound image displayed next to the words, “I am an American.” Awwww…how touching. The image is clearly from a late-term pregnancy, and we are supposed to relate personally to the unborn child.

    Problem is, 88% of abortions occur in the first trimester. Most ultrasound images from this period look nothing like the cutesy, nearly fully developed face and hand displayed along with this catchy slogan. Besides, why not “I am a human being”? Are Americans the only ones with a “right to life”?

    It would seem so, since individuals supposedly so concerned about human life are encouraging wars and foreign policy decisions responsible for the deaths of millions of children who have already been born. So what’s worth more? A partially developed American fetus or a fully grown 11-year-old in Iraq? What about the dead American soldiers, how much are they worth?

    How about a picture of a pregnant teenager living in an inner-city with desperate eyes, who has no access to good health care or a stable living environment. Is she not an American? Will you force the course of her life by making her have an unwanted child? What about the women who are sure to die due to failed back-alley abortions or suicides if the process is mad illegal? Do they not have a “right to life”? For that matter, what about other species that every day face extinction due to the constant transformation of lands to solely support humans? Do that not have a “right to life”?

    I am reclaiming the term “pro-life” for individuals able to consider the significance of life in its many forms, whether it be a woman in America facing a difficult decision, a family in foreign lands, or a tree older than any of us.

  • Franco

    #11 — Leslie Bohn

    What people say is as important as what they don’t say in understanding them more clearly. From what you have written it has said a lot on both accounts.

    If being honest and direct is being rude in your book, then I suggest you start reading some other books.

    I never said you were callous. I never attacked you Leslie, never once. I carefully chose my words giving you full benefit of the doubt and fair opportunity to respond. Here is what I said.

    “It could make one think you are amazingly callous about the terminated babies”.

    As far as saying those same words to you in a bar, your right, I wouldn’t, I don’t go to bars. As far as saying it to you in a restaurant or in a classroom or any other face to face forum, I would do it without hesitation.

    You’re choice in how you responded to those words, what you said and what you didn’t say, shows you continue to choose to deny the hypocrisy in the anti-war effort. An overwhelming majority of the war protesters in Congress today and those on this blog are also pro abortion. It is from within this fact that lays the questions of real conscience and concern for human life instead of political grandstanding.

    The political anti-war efforts of exalting 3,351 US military deaths that claim should not have had to occur, while at the same time sweeping aside any show of that same kind of heart and compassion for the 6,000,000 unborn infant deaths at the hands of a woman’s right to choose is not separable. This politically displaced conscience posistioning reveals hypocrisy for care and value of all human life. Politically separating it is conscience denial by choice. It is your choice and it has nothing to do with me.

    You are right, the 3,351 empty seats at 3,351 dinner tables is an irreparable lifetime suffering loss for all of their family, friends, and this nation and I agree completely. But the hypocrisy of those who would deny the tragedy of the 6,000,000 empty cribs while they politically exalt their anti-war agenda at the expense of 3351 fallen brave individuals is why you have found this argument.

    How utterly obtuse to suggest that I think that those who choose to volunteer for US military service deserve to die. Those thoughts came out of your mind, not mine. It shows how shallow your perspective truly is. Frankly, I think your throwing out the bull to sweep over your unexplainable indifference to the 6 million.

    Lets clear up one thing right now!!! PEOPLE WHO VOLUNTEER FOR THE MILITAY DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE.

    The following points being made are clear. There are two simple facts that I would like to see you address. (1) The overwhelming majority of US military service personal on the ground in Iraq, who intimately knew those who 3351 fallen and share with them the desire to bring order to one of the most disordered regions of the world. They put themselves in harms way yesterday and today for this end, they volunteered for it, they were trained for it, they are about that business and they want our support, appreciation and respect. You are making a case for them that they are not asking you to make. Who do you think you are? (2) The 6 million who have died back here at home have no choice, are utterly defencless and need someone to speak for them. Your completely ignoring these two facts and this is exactly why you have found this argument.

    I will address your request to discuss the subject of the satire pieces written above. Lets see some additional facts in holding on to perspective.

    The USS Abraham Lincoln, the aircraft carrier where President Buch gave his speech had finished its major combat objective and it was going home. During its major combat role in the opening stages of the war it flew 16,500 air sorties over Iraq. Let me spell that out for your…sixteen thousand five hundred. Its mission and its objectives were successful and its mission was accomplished and it was and did go home following Bush’s speech. I challenge you to disprove these facts I just stated!

    War is hideous and you will not find an argument about this from me. War has been part of this world since the dawn of time. This fact speaks louder then anything said so far. War will always be in this world. How to deal with wars of yesterday and tomorrow in an ever-shrinking world is where our county and our leaders must deal. Howver to politiclly position oneself to deny that war is a world reality and that the US is part of that world is not political leadership I can trust nor place the safety of my children in.

    I support our troops over in Iraq and other troubled regions in the world. I respect their decision to serve and place themselves in harms way to protect and defend our way of life and I am proud of them for it. I respect their desire for me to support them in their difficult mission. I stand in aw of them. I support President Bush in his support of them and in his efforts to defend the United States or America and its way of life. If you have been paying any attention at all the past few decades, you see Islamic Imperialism on the rise, most recently Turkey in the past week. This is not due to President Bush. Need you be reminded that the ongoing 400,000 – Darfur Genocide in Sudan started before Bush was president and this on going butchery is at the hands of Islamic Imperialists. This wave in radical Islamic butchery is not ending when our troops come home from Iraq. This butchery has a life and legs of its own and it is networked both around the world and inside the US. We fight them on their soil or we fight them on ours. Where would you have the blood spilled Leslie?

    In closing I present the following facts and reality for perspectives sake. Setting aside all the worlds countless historical wars, and setting aside even the current Iraq war, within just the last 10 years alone the world has witnessed the following wars ending and beginning, and the toll it has taken on the people involved.

    3,800,000 – Second Congo War (1998–2004)
    1,000,000 – Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2002)
    500,000 – Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)
    200,000 – Sierra Leone Civil War (1991–2000)
    125,000 – Eritrean-Ethiopian War (1998–2000)
    66,000 – Second Chechen War (1999 – )
    7,000 – Kosovo War (1996–1999)
    4,000 – Waziristan War (2004-2006)
    3,900 – Kargil War (May-July 1999)
    3,700 – Northern Ireland (1969 – 1998)
    3,000 – Civil war in Côte d’Ivoire (2002 – )
    3,000 – Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2000 -)
    1,800 – Israel-Lebanon conflict 2006 -)

    Out of all these deaths totals in these conflicts, how utterly strange that the only ones still making today’s headlines or found in BC debates are the last two listed at the bottom which represents less then 1% of the total casuistries. Can you explain this?

    Additionally the grand total falls far less then 6 million.

  • Franco

    #11 — Leslie Bohn

    What people say is as important as what they don’t say in understanding them more clearly. From what you have written it has said a lot on both accounts.

    If being honest and direct is being rude in your book, then I suggest you start reading some other books.

    I never said you were callous. I never attacked you Leslie, never once. I carefully chose my words giving you full benefit of the doubt and fair opportunity to respond. Here is what I said.

    It could make one think you are amazingly callous about the terminated babies.

    As far as saying those same words to you in a bar, your right, I wouldn’t, I don’t go to bars. As far as saying it to you in a restaurant or in a classroom or any other face to face forum, I would do it without hesitation.

    You’re choice in how you responded to those words, what you said and what you didn’t say, shows you continue to choose to deny the hypocrisy in the anti-war effort. An overwhelming majority of the war protesters in Congress today and those on this blog are also pro abortion. It is from within this fact that lays the questions of real conscience and concern for human life instead of political grandstanding.

    The politically anti-war efforts by exalting of 3,351 US military deaths, while at the same time sweeping aside any show of that same kind of heart and compassion for the 6,000,000 unborn infant deaths at the hands of a woman’s right to choose is not separable. This politically displaced conscience reveals hypocrisy for care and value of all human life. Politically separating it is denial by choice. It is your choice and it has nothing to do with me.

    You are right, the 3,351 empty seats at 3,351 dinner tables is an irreparable lifetime suffering loss for all of their family, friends, and this nation. I agree completely with you. But the hypocrisy of those who would deny the tragedy of the 6,000,000 empty cribs while politically exalting their anti-war agenda at he expense of 3351 brave individuals is why you have found this argument.

    How utterly obtuse to suggest that I think that those who choose to volunteer for US military service deserve to die. Those thoughts came out of your mind, not mine. It shows how shallow your perspective truly is. Frankly, I think your throwing out the bull to sweep over your unexplainable indifference to the 6 million.

    Lets clear up one thing right now!!! PEOPLE WHO VOLUNTEER FOR THE MILITAY DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE.

    The following points being made are clear. There are two simple facts that I would like to see you address. (1) The overwhelming majority of US military service personal on the ground in Iraq, who intimately knew those who 3351 fallen and share with them the desire to bring order to one of the most disordered regions of the world. They put themselves in harms way yesterday and today for this end, they volunteered for it, they were trained for it, they are about that business and they want our support, appreciation and respect. You are making a case for them that they are not asking you to make. Who do you think you are? (2) The 6 million who have died back here at home have no choice, are utterly defencless and need someone to speak for them. Your completely ignoring these two facts and this is exactly why you have found this argument.

    I will address your request to discuss the subject of the satire pieces written above. Lets see some additional facts in holding on to perspective.

    The USS Abraham Lincoln, the aircraft carrier where President Buch gave his speech had finished its major combat objective and it was going home. During its major combat role in the opening stages of the war it flew 16,500 air sorties over Iraq. Let me spell that out for your…sixteen thousand five hundred. Its mission and its objectives were successful and its mission was accomplished and it was and did go home following Bush’s speech. I challenge you to disprove these facts I just stated!

    War is hideous and you will not find an argument about this from me. War has been part of this world since the dawn of time. This fact speaks louder then anything said so far. War will always be in this world. How to deal with wars of yesterday and tomorrow in an ever-shrinking world is where our county and our leaders must deal. Howver to politiclly position oneself to deny that war is a world reality and that the US is part of that world is not political leadership I can trust nor place the safety of my children in.

    I support our troops over in Iraq and other troubled regions in the world. I respect their decision to serve and place themselves in harms way to protect and defend our way of life and I am proud of them for it. I respect their desire for me to support them in their difficult mission. I stand in aw of them. I support President Bush in his support of them and in his efforts to defend the United States or America and its way of life. If you have been paying any attention at all the past few decades, you see Islamic Imperialism on the rise, most recently Turkey in the past week. This is not due to President Bush. Need you be reminded that the ongoing 400,000 – Darfur Genocide in Sudan started before Bush was president and this on going butchery is at the hands of Islamic Imperialists. This wave in radical Islamic butchery is not ending when our troops come home from Iraq. This butchery has a life and legs of its own and it is networked both around the world and inside the US. We fight them on their soil or we fight them on ours. Where would you have the blood spilled Leslie?

    In closing I present the following facts and reality for perspectives sake. Setting aside all the worlds countless historical wars, and setting aside even the current Iraq war, within just the last 10 years alone the world has witnessed the following wars ending and beginning, and the toll it has taken on the people involved.

    3,800,000 – Second Congo War (1998–2004)
    1,000,000 – Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2002)
    500,000 – Angolan Civil War (1975–2002)
    200,000 – Sierra Leone Civil War (1991–2000)
    125,000 – Eritrean-Ethiopian War (1998–2000)
    66,000 – Second Chechen War (1999 – )
    7,000 – Kosovo War (1996–1999)
    4,000 – Waziristan War (2004-2006)
    3,900 – Kargil War (May-July 1999)
    3,700 – Northern Ireland (1969 – 1998)
    3,000 – Civil war in Côte d’Ivoire (2002 – )
    3,000 – Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2000 -)
    1,800 – Israel-Lebanon conflict 2006 -)

    Out of all these deaths totals in these conflicts, how utterly strange that the only ones still making today’s headlines or found in BC debates are the last two listed at the bottom which represents less then 1% of the total casuistries. Can you explain this?

    Additionally the grand total falls far less then 6 million.

  • troll

    *The political anti-war efforts of exalting 3,351 US military deaths that claim should not have had to occur, while at the same time sweeping aside any show of that same kind of heart and compassion for the 6,000,000 unborn infant deaths at the hands of a woman’s right to choose is not separable.*

    while it is an arguable point of usage whether there is such a thing as an ‘unborn infant’ the dead soldiers don’t face this ambiguity

    this turn of phrase is on a par with ‘death tax’ and other tidbits of emotional manipulation

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Franco:

    The topics are not linked in any way, except that you put them in the same sentence.

    On what other issues must I conform to your opinions before I have “moral standing” to lament the deaths of 3300 people? Or to point out that our President and his policies are directly the cause of those deaths?

    Repeat: You don’t know my position on abortion, making your argument even stupider. Arranging a whole moral argument around something you don’t know is pretty much a waste of time, no?

    As for the “Mission Accomplished” business, you seem to have bought the Bush party line here, that “MA” referred to JUST THAT BATTLESHIP. Of course, here’s “Sky King” Bush’s lede that day:

    “Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.”

  • MBD

    Troll:

    “while it is an arguable point of usage whether there is such a thing as an ‘unborn infant’ the dead soldiers don’t face this ambiguity”

    Is it also arguable that a “dead soldier” isn’t a soldier, since technically speaking, he’s a corpse?

  • troll

    true MBD – if he’s dead then he’s probably a corpse…though he might be an empty beer bottle

  • Franco

    #17 — Leslie Bohn

    “The topics are not linked in any way, except that you put them in the same sentence.”

    Death links them. Death at the hands of others.

    “On what other issues must I conform to your opinions before I have “moral standing” to lament the deaths of 3300 people?”

    Politically separating it is denial by choice. It is your choice and it has nothing to do with me.

    “Or to point out that our President and his policies are directly the cause of those deaths?”

    Islamic Imperialism is directly the cause of those deaths. Just exactly like the 2,973 Americans put to death by Islamic Imperialism on 9-11-2001.

    As I said before. This wave in radical Islamic butchery is not ending when our troops come home from Iraq. This butchery has a life and legs of its own and it is networked both around the world and inside the US. We fight them on their soil or we fight them on ours. So I ask you again….Where would you have the blood spilled Leslie?

  • bliffle

    “Bush Won Iraq War Four Years Ago – Freedom Reigns”

    You’re right.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. Franco:

    Wow, I didn’t realize I was conversing with an actual member of the Bush administration, since it seems to me those are the only ones left who still buy the widely discredited “fight them over there… ” theory of terrorism you espouse.

    When the President and his apologists trumpet this slogan, we must ask ourselves if it’s true, or if it just sounds good. Is there actual evidence for it? Does it make sense? Does a war there actually prevent terrorism here? How?

    I’d say the opposite is true. Each of the 100,000 or so (perhaps many more) Iraqis our military has killed in that country has sons, brothers, fathers, cousins and friends who now have more reason to hate the United States. Plus, resources, especially financial, that could be put into better domestric security are instead being sunk further and further into a morass.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Have I mentioned that trying to connect the deaths of soldiers in Iraq to abortion is about the stupidest damned thing I’ve ever heard?

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Leslie writes:

    Does it make sense? Does a war there actually prevent terrorism here? How?

    I’d say the opposite is true. Each of the 100,000 or so (perhaps many more) Iraqis our military has killed in that country has sons, brothers, fathers, cousins and friends who now have more reason to hate the United States. Plus, resources, especially financial, that could be put into better domestric security are instead being sunk further and further into a morass.

    You say that the “opposite is true,” yet I don’t see where you prove that in what you write here.

    The point being to keep the fighting out of the USA, how have you shown that we’ve failed to do that?

    In point of fact, when and where has there been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11?

  • Leslie Bohn

    True that we haven’t had another 9/11. Is there proof that this has anything to do with the war? Or even any indication that it is? Is this really a logical either/or proposition, either we fight here or there? Why not both?

    I offered support for my theory (the dead have relatives with new reason to hate us, we are diverting money that could be spent on security), but obviously no “proof,” as it’s a prediction: The hatred we spread over there will come back to haunt us for years.

  • Arch Conservative

    No one wants to join in and participate in an unpopular war.

    I was amking the point that so called liberals who care so much about human life only do it selectively when it reinforces their leftist ideology Dave.

    Leslie chastised anyone who in any way ever supported the war as being callous and completely uncaring about the 3000 American lives that have been lost.

    Since she is sitting so high on the horse I think it is a completely valid point to make in pointing out that Leslie does not seem to be all that compassionate herself when she can dismiss millions of American babies being murdered without so much as a second thought and then tell reiterate again how heartless are those who may have supported this war at any point in time.

    Nalle..do you have any idea the number of times I have written a post condemning abortion on this site only to have some leftist come along with the response “well gee you care so much about babies but how about all the people dying in Bush’s war.” If the moonbats are allowed to make the comparison then why am I not allowed to?

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. C:

    Can’t argue with my actual words, I guess.

    Unfortunately, anyone can go back and read what I wrote. I chastised YOU for being callous when you called my lamentation for the 3000+ dead “lame.”

    It’s very amusing that you keep flogging your abortion red herring without even knowing my position on the matter.

  • Arch Conservative

    Well the safe money’s on your being a card carrying member of the leftist guard that holds “abortion is a choice not a baby.”

    If I am wrong why don’t you enlighten me.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. C:
    I have tried to enlighten you in every post in which I’ve addressed you, alas.

    Abortion has nothing to do with the performance of President Bush on the deck of the Abe Lincoln, or with my lamenting the deaths of 3300+ soldiers, so, er, it’s none of your business.

    But please keep in mind that I’ve never attributed to you any ideas that you haven’t expressed. It’s called honesty. Of course, I acknowledge that it’s easier to support your position honestly when the facts are on your side.

  • Arch Conservative

    You keep saying I attributed a position to you which you have never expreseed and yet you will still not inform us all as to your views on abortion. So I’m going to go on assuming that you’re a die hard leftist pro-choice gleeful advocate of infanticide.

    If you don’t like it that’s just too fucking bad.

    I guess you’ve never compared and contrasted two issue sthat had some common aspects before Leslie?

    From your refusal to see the obvious points on which the war casualties in Iraq and the casualties here at home in the abortion mills can be compared and contrasted it seems as if you’re motivation lies not with a desire to express sincere concern for the deaths of our soldiers but rather a desire to blindly bash Bush.

  • zingzing

    someone (i think leslie) brought up the anti-abortionists embrace of the death penalty. how do you reconcile that with your “anti-death” posistion? and how is it that pro-war people generally fall into the anti-abortion crowd? and then they want to call hypocrisy on those who are anti-war, anti-death penalty and pro-choice? how can you be fine with your own hypocrisy and not with another person’s?

    i mean, i definitely see the hypocrisy of the situation (being anti-war and pro-choice). it’s a conundrum. but, archie, calling leslie (who hasn’t said one way or the other) a hypocrite is just a good way to point out your own.

    plus, abortion has nothing to do with war. so it’s a non-sequitor. i think she’s saying, let’s keep it on target.

    wait. is leslie a man or a woman? my apologies either way. it’s one of those names. i have one of those names. so i am sympathetic.

  • Arch Conservative

    someone (i think leslie) brought up the anti-abortionists embrace of the death penalty. how do you reconcile that with your “anti-death” posistion?

    That is a very fair question zing and I unlike Leslie, answer fair questions when they are asked of me.

    When a baby is murdered by every leftist’s favorite pasttime, abortion, it is the taking of an innocent life and usually for no good reason. When someone is executed it is because they have committed a horrendous crime against society or individuals in society, usually murder. The death penalty is a form of punishment for a person who has done something very wrong and usually has no redeeming value to society at all and that is why I feel it is justified.

    “and how is it that pro-war people generally fall into the anti-abortion crowd? and then they want to call hypocrisy on those who are anti-war, anti-death penalty and pro-choice? how can you be fine with your own hypocrisy and not with another person’s?”

    Another fair and valid question. Here’s my answer.

    I am not prowar in the sense that I would ever desire war unless all other options had been exhausted. As for the current war I thought it was a good idea at the outset but now believe it has been so mismanaged and bungeled that it has disolved into a complete lost cause. In a war, or at least the present one, the people who died on our side were volunteer soldiers who knew that they might someday be called to die for their nation. An abortion involves a baby who has no choice in the matter. Also I believe that the motivation for wars is usually to serve some greater good for a nation that justifies the casualties that may take place. With an abortion, the motivation is usually for the mother to do whatever she can (ie kill her baby) so that her lifestyle won’t be comprimised or cramped in any way and I don’t feel that this is justifiable whatsoever.

    if Leslie doesn’t want me to assume she’s a die hard pro-choice person then why doesn’t Leslie just come out and tell me I’m wrong about her views on abortion? She/he refuses to do this so I am just going to assume that this silence means I’m right and I most likely am. Quacks like a duck and all that.

    Lastly zing….if you’re so insitent on belieeiving that abortion and war are so wholly unalike that they should never be discussed as being in any way relative to each other then I would appreciate it if you would reiterate that sentiment in coming to my aid the next time I am discussing my opposition to abortion and some leftist comes along with “oh but you’re fine with George Bush’s warthat’s killed 400,000 innocent irqis you war mongering right winger.”

    Fair enough?

  • Zedd

    Zing

    i mean, i definitely see the hypocrisy of the situation (being anti-war and pro-choice). it’s a conundrum.

    Actually the pro choice position doesn’t see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don’t apply.

    The anti abortion view says its wrong to kill human beings and embryos are human beings. The reasoning should apply to wars, and gun control, state sponsored killing.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Actually the pro choice position doesn’t see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don’t apply.”

    then how do you explain the pro-choice position on partial birth abortion Zedd?

    At that stage in the game there is absolutely no physician that would state that it’s an embryo and not a human being. In fact the consensus is that the baby is in almost all cases, viable outside the mother at that point. yet we have all the pro-choicers in an uproar last week due to the supreme court’s decision to uphold the pba ban.

  • zingzing

    zedd: “Actually the pro choice position doesn’t see the embryo as a human being. Its an embryo so the laws that apply to human (moral and civic) don’t apply.”

    now, zedd. you know i am pro-choice. and i agree that an embryo is not a human being, only a potential human being. still… while i don’t see abortion as murder, it does mean that a life will not take place. i can see where the anti-abortion crowd is coming from. i myself would be very against aborting any parasite made up, in part, of my spunk.

    my reason for this is that i have known a couple of young women who had abortions (neither of them mine) and they certainly had horrible doubts about the decision they had made. i wouldn’t want my potential wife/mother of my child to suffer from such a thing. also, that’s my fuckin kid too and i want my say… there probably are circumstances that would push me towards abortion, but those would have to be pretty extreme.

    that said, i could never bring myself to judge a woman for making what she thinks is the best decision, as long as she thinks long and hard about the issue in front of her.

    archie: “then how do you explain the pro-choice position on partial birth abortion Zedd?”

    zedd may hold different beliefs than i do, but i think that partial birth abortion, especially if the baby is viable, is just wrong. unless, of course, there is some medical reason for it. i mean, if you could just pull it out instead of killing it… why not just pull it out and put it up for adoption? i dunno. it doesn’t seem like much of an issue to me.

  • zingzing

    and archie, as for your “would you back me up next time some leftie calls me out on the war when we are discussing abortion” question… i would, if your views on the war were unknown. actually, i quite admire the fact that you finally agree that bush royally fucked this one up. takes a bit of balls.

    still, you can’t be pro-war and anti-abortion and crow about it… war doesn’t just kill our soldiers, it kills plenty of innocents as well. iraqis certainly wouldn’t be dying in the numbers they are right now if it weren’t for us being there. just the way it is.

  • Arch Conservative

    unless, of course, there is some medical reason for it.

    Well zing the curent ban has a medical exception clause in it but that still wasn’t good enough for many on the pro-choice side.

    Another thing that I’d liek to add that rarely ever gets mentioned about abortion is the percentage of women who have more than one. According to the center for bioethical reform 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have already had one.

    That is a staggering statistic that undercuts the ‘it’s a rare but tragic” bs the left offers.

  • zingzing

    look, archie, and i’m going to put this bluntly… some women are whores who get knocked up frequently because they are too fucking stupid to use a goddamn condom.

    there.

    here’s another truth: some abortions are unecessary, and really the woman should be forced (not by me, not by the government, but by her own concience) to bring the baby to term because she (and he) should learn to take responsibility for the things she (and he) do (does). doo-rang-doo-rang.

    abortions should be legal because they are sometimes necessary for the mother. that’s her choice. but women who have multiple abortions for the simple fact that they can’t keep a man’s dick covered are just fucking up their own bodies.

    the best abortion is the one that ends up in a plastic bag with spermicide all over it. i’ve had millions, maybe billions, i dunno.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Mr. C:

    To answer your question would indicate that I thought it was relevant. I’ll answer any relevant question about the topic. I haven’t been “silent” on the matter, I’ve told you why I wasn’t answering. You may continue to assume whatever you want, to the endless amusement of the logical minds who read this, especially me.

    The two topics are simply not related in any meaningful way, so your arguments are fallacious.

    Glad we agree the war should end.

    BTW, it wasn’t me who asked the death penalty question, as I try not to make arguments based on assuming someone else’s position.

  • bliffle

    George Bush’s brilliant campaign in Iraq and subsequent pacification of the mideast and stemming the onslaught of the islamo-facsist barbarians has clearly demonstrated that he is the Most Valuable Human Being. More valuable even than Mother Theresa and Whitey Ford rolled into one, if you can imagine such a thing (and I’m sure that the low mind of a BC auditor CAN imagine such a thing!)

    But his life is in danger! Yes, danger, of a kind so mathematically certain as to be incontestable.

    At this very moment there is an asteroid somewhere in space hurtling toward our planet with unstoppable force. When it strikes earth huge upheavals will rent the earths mantel, huge lava flows will occur, dust and debris will be thrown in the air for thousands of years, life forms will be extinguished, entire species will disappear.

    But salvation is near! Scientists report that they have hypothesized a planetary system similar to our solar system some hundreds of billions of light-years away, that could perhaps support our form of life. Hallelujah! The Hidden Hand of God (or is it yaweh, or is it allah, or Zeus, or Adam Smith?).

    But we have only enough energy on earth to send one person to that saving solar system. Who better than our Most Valuable Human?

    Send Bush into outer space! Do it now! Don’t waste time!

    It’s your patriotic duty.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    You have too much time on your hands, Bliffthuselah…

  • Dr Dreadful

    Leslie,

    It was me who asked the death penalty question.

    Arch immediately proved my point by differentiating between his anti-abortion and pro-death penalty positions.

  • Arch Conservative

    Which point did I prove Dreadful?

    You, as well as zing asked how I could be pro-life and at the same time support the death penalty. I answered your question. You may not have agreed with my reasoning but at least I did provide an answer based on my beliefs and views. That’s more than can be said for Leslie. With her if you go off topic even slightly it’s “on no we can’t talk about that….that wasn’t the topic of this post…..we can’t talk about it….i won’t talk about it…no….. never….”

  • Leslie Bohn

    Actually, Dr. D, I don’t think it’s necessarily a contradiction to be anti-abortion and pro death penalty. Obviously, if one is just against the abstract idea of “killing,” then it is.

    But I think it’s a logically reasonable (if morally repugnant) to be in favor of killing people judged guilty of horrendous crimes and at the same time be against the killing of people who are guilty of nothing, if one considers an unborn person a person.

    I say “morally repugnant” because I oppose allowing a government to kill its own citizens under any circumstances.

  • Arch Conservative

    Let me just add that while I support the death penalty I do not support it nearly as much as I oppose abortion.

    If the death penatly were to be repealled nationally I don’t think I’d be that upset as long as those who were on death row for their crimes remained in prison for their lives as punishment.

    And I guess it may be logical for one who does not consider it a baby but rather a fetus. What I don’t understand is how any decent person can actually look at a picture of the aborted taken as early as late in the first trimester when arms, legs, hands, feet, a head, eyes….etc have all been formed and say that it is not a human being….say that a life was not taken.

    And I am really trying to be reasonable and I can appreciate that it is probably a very difficult and trying decision for many women to make when they decide to abort their baby. However difficult it may be though I still believe that a decent caring person would decide to have the baby anyway even though they may face hardship in their life, because it is the right thing to do. Often times deciding to make the right choice in life also means picking the hardest choice or hardest route and abortion is the perfect example of this dilemma.

    Aside from the individual woman and her choice though I am disgusted by the lengths to which the “abortion industry will go to.” When the people that run planned parenthood decide that it’s a good idea to manufacture a t-shirt that says “I had an abortion” on it and offer it to their clients as if it were something to be proud of and celebrate then it is time that we ALL ask just how damaged and twisted these people are.

  • Dr Dreadful

    I don’t think it’s necessarily a contradiction to be anti-abortion and pro death penalty.

    I don’t think it is either. But there was Arch, insisting that you declare your position on abortion, as if it were contradictory to be pro-choice and anti-war. So I offered him the analogous question of how one could be anti-abortion but pro-death penalty.

    Lo and behold, suddenly it was OK to hold contrary positions on ‘life’ issues.

  • Franco

    #22 — Leslie Bohn

    “When the President and his apologists trumpet this slogan, we must ask ourselves if it’s true, or if it just sounds good. Is there actual evidence for it? Does it make sense? Does a war there actually prevent terrorism here? How?”

    The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, just to name a few well known international alliances of militant organizations that have become household names are all well organized and well funded groups, and they all appreciate your confusions to the answers to those questions Leslie.

  • Zedd

    Zing / Arch

    I don’t support partial birth abortion unless the mother’s life is in danger.

    Under normal circumstances, if the fetus is viable then it is murder in my opinion. The fetus is now a human being.

    Also, if you’ve been able to have an abortion for months, what compelling reason would there be to cause you to have to wait until the fetus has developed into a human being in order for you to abort the pregnancy? Seems sadistic.

    Perhaps in the future they will come up with artificial wombs for viable fetuses that are not wanted by their host parent. Seems rather cold and sterile for the tots though. Perhaps tapes of a loving woman’s voice, movement, external touch and the temperature of the womb could be simulation. May end up being a better place to develop than what some mothers provide.

    That innovation may however encourage two semester instead of full trimester pregnancies for money…

    With time all of these types of issues will be solved and new ones will emerge. Then the next ice age will hit and we’ll start over :o)

    Anyway, my point was that it is pointless to discuss the death of fetuses vs living viable humans. The premise is that fetuses aren’t humans yet.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Lo and behold, suddenly it was OK to hold contrary positions on ‘life’ issues.”

    Hey I at least offered an explanation where Leslie did not.

    “Perhaps in the future they will come up with artificial wombs for viable fetuses that are not wanted by their host parent.”

    Perhaps in the future crisis pregnancy centers which provide counseling and aid to women seeking to have their baby rather than abort it will get millions of dollars in government funding the way planned abortionhood does now.

    Perhaps the butchers that run plan abortionhood will grow a concscince and stop using propaganda to get peopel to support abortion

  • Zedd

    Arch

    Planned Parenthood does provide counseling and aid to women seeking to have their baby. They do that all day, all of the time.

    You have no idea what Planned Parenthood is do you? Stop talking about it because you are way off and you sound silly. Its just a clinic where women go for all gynecological issues. Just because they also perform abortions doesn’t mean that that is what they are for. Its just a woman’s clinic. However men can come if they have reproductive concerns or STDs. Most women go there for cheaper birth control pills.

    I personally think drinking has ruined more lives than anything in history. I abhor it. So many women have been abused, raped and killed because of drunken husbands and boyfriends all over the world. So many children have been beaten and abandoned by alcoholic parents. Husbands have lived distressed and in shame because of wives who are alcoholics. Adults live their lives lacking confidence because of childhoods surrounded by alcoholics. The elderly are abused, taken advantage off and forced to cower in their late years because of children with this evil disease. So many individuals have lost their lives due to this drug that we as a society celebrate.

    Alcohol is legal. Whether I like it or not. Also we know that making it illegal doesn’t work. It is indeed a destructive element. However I don’t think it makes sense to protest at places that sell alcohol. ITS LEGAL! Should I protest people who drink? ITS LEGAL! The only thing I can do is not drink.

  • bliffle

    #41 — May 4, 2007 @ 11:33AM — Clavos

    “You have too much time on your hands,…”

    Perhaps. But at least I’m on topic. Are you?

  • Franco

    #48 — Zedd

    “Anyway, my point was that it is pointless to discuss the death of fetuses vs living viable humans. The premise is that fetuses aren’t humans yet.”

    In your opinion.

  • Zedd

    Franco
    In your opinion.

    In the opinion of pro choice people. So it is futile to discuss the topic by making those comparisons. Its futile.

    That is the shortest response that I’ve read from you. Wow.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “In the opinion of pro choice people. So it is futile to discuss the topic by making those comparisons. Its futile.”

    It’s futile? Do you understand the nature and purpose of discussion and argument?

    There are two sides to every argument…

    So, the pro choice people’s premise is the only valid one, and that ends the discussion because to argue against it is “futile”.

    Bizarre.

  • Arch Conservative

    Zedd…….I know what planned parenthood is you dolt.

    They are the nation’s largest abortion provider and their largest source of revenue is abortion.

    Plain and simple…they are in the abortion business…everything else is window dressing

  • Dr Dreadful

    Strange, Arch… my wife and her sisters have been to Planned Parenthood a number of times in the past and not once were they offered an abortion. Shoddy service I call it. They should complain to the management!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    DD,

    Your anecdotal evidence about your wife and sisters-in-law’s experiences with PP, while cute, doesn’t actually refute AC’s claim in #55.

    But perhaps that wasn’t your intent…

  • Dr Dreadful

    I just like to yank Arch’s chain every once in a while, Clav. Interesting some of the stuff that flushes out…