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Rioters Make Nazis Look Good in Toledo, Ohio

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An aborted attempt at a march in Toledo, Ohio on October 15th, 2005 by about 15 people identifying themselves as “America’s Nazi Party” ended up with riots and looting and arson by the locals. TOLEDO BLADE STORY

Mayor Jack Ford declared a state of emergency this afternoon following a violent uprising in North Toledo that erupted following an aborted march by a group of Nazis.

He issued a citywide curfew starting at 8 p.m. tonight, tomorrow, and possibly Monday.

Mr. Ford said those protesting were mainly male gang members in their 20s. He said the protests were not triggered by race relations but by gang members with grievances.

“We went to talk to them. Most of them were gang members in full colors,” the mayor said. “Their anger was based on some long-standing things but also that we had allowed the [Nazi] walk to occur in the first place.”

North Toledo descended into chaos for several hours this afternoon after angry crowds who turned out to protest a planned march by a small group of National Socialist Movement calling themselves “America’s Nazi Party” erupted into violence.

A mob of at least 500 people threw bricks and rocks at police and vehicles, looted a bar at Central and Mulberry and started it on fire, and overturned a car at a North Toledo gas station and burned it.

There were reports of minor injuries to police and numerous arrests.

You’ve really got to be a major jackass to make self-described Nazis start to look good, but these Toledo residents have managed to do it. Rioting is just far, far worse than a few idiots with swastikas talking some trash. As riots unfolded before the Nazis even started, the city cancelled their march for them, and sent them packing. They apparently left peacefully and without any incident on their part.

Before sending in police in force to make arrests at around 3:30 p.m., Mayor Ford and Toledo Fire Department chief Mike Bell approached the mob and attempted to negotiate a compromise. But as they talked, and as the crowd yelled and screamed at them, looters broke into the bar at Central and Mulberry and began taking merchandise.

Mr. Bell eventually began walking back toward a large group of police shaking his head.

“No more negotiating,” he said. “We’re done. They just set a building on fire.”

Holy negative stereotypes, Batman!

Not to put too fine a point on this, but the local Negroes here did about a thousand times more to make their point for them than some handful of Nazi idiots could ever possibly have done. If they had simply ignored them, these dozen odd schmucks with police escort would have simply looked like pathetic museum pieces. Or if the locals unstrategically but understandably had lined the streets and cussed the Nazis, the Nazis would have still just looked like fools.

But the first sign of someone merely even planning to say things they didn’t like became an excuse to go burning and looting. What? This is just exactly the kind of behavior that Nazis or Klansmen would accuse them of.

It’s unfortunate and unfair that the behavior of a few hundred folk will be taken as a reflection on other black folk who had nothing to do with this, but you’d be asking the near impossible to expect everyone to not notice nonsense like this.

We struggle to be colorblind, but pattern recognition is basic to human psychology. Mayor Ford announcing the official line that we’re pretending this is not race related does not change the facts. It’s not white guys from the suburbs or even my backwards cracker neighbors that go burning and looting at the drop of a hat. That such patterns end up coloring the perceptions of many people who do not actually conform to those negative stereotypes is nearly impossible to avoid. Putting it very gently, foolishness like this doesn’t help.

The Nazis didn’t NEED to march in Toledo. The locals made their argument for them.

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  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    At least my hate crimes in Toledo don’t disturb the peace.

  • Mike

    You’re totally right! We already watched Detroit burn a few decades ago and now I can’t take my family to the Toledo Zoo tomorrow for fear of having my car flipped over, my wife raped and my kids killed. They probably won’t even refund my damn tickets. Congrats to the folks that attacked their own neighbourhoods and made themselves look like animals. It’s hard to make Nazis looked civilized, but congrats again to the folks in North Toledo for doing that as well. I guess any excuse to riot will do…

  • http://www.breakingwindows.com Matt Paprocki

    This wasn’t that far from me. A few miles, if that.

    Very few of the local news stations had anything for a while. It was weird to see this being picked up by CNN and Fox News, but none of the local stations (other than a scroll during the college games). One of the stations came on with their “special report” graphics and music, then cut back to Blues Clues.

    Freaky day to say the least, and I was all for people chucking rocks at Nazis, but once they start trashing stores, blasting police, and setting buildings on fire, it’s impossible to believe in humanity anymore.

    From what some people on the ground said, it wasn’t too bad until the Nazi’s were escorted out. The cops apparently gave them a ton of protection, and that only ticked people off more. They said to expect more tonight, but so far it’s been quiet. Curfew must be working.

  • http://www.breakingwindows.com Matt Paprocki

    now I can’t take my family to the Toledo Zoo tomorrow

    It’s on a completely different side of town, not even close to the riot area. I don’t see any danger there.

  • Hari

    After what happened in New Orleans, (and Benton Harbor, LA, Detroit, ect) this kinda behavior shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone….

  • Mike

    Thanks Matt. I did a quick mapquest and plotted the zoo location versus the corner of Central & Mulberry where the trouble was and noticed many miles in between. I was most concerned that because of the “declared state of emergency” that public areas like the Zoo would have to close their doors. I was being a drama queen with the “burning, raping and killing” comments to highlight the contempt I hold for the people who were acting like neanderthals. I’ll keep an eye on the news and see what things are like in the morning. Hoping this was isolated and no repeats tomorrow. Glad you’re OK. Windsor media has picked up on it, but CNN has the best coverage, as they LOVE to sensationalize anything.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    Anyone else find it ironic that Neo Nazis planned to rally against gang violence?

  • http://www.breakingwindows.com Matt Paprocki

    Anyone else find it ironic that Neo Nazis planned to rally against gang violence?

    They knew exactly what they were doing. They claimed they needed no police presence, when even ignorant fools like them know they’ll get it. Now they can go to wherever it is they came from and say they made their point.

    While it’s hard to refute that everyone involved was pretty damned stupid, the catalyst was the Neo Nazi group. They were the problem and when you have that much hate and anger in a single area like that, hell will always break loose, regardless of color.

  • Coooooon

    Fools tend to attract foolishness. I’m not surprised…and I’m black! I’m so pissed at my people that I’m going to go rape the next white woman I see. When is the freakin’ White revolution going to start so all us coloreds can get sent back to where we came from?

  • Dave chisom

    All you holier than thou nitwits should just shut up. The rioting was very unfortunate but you all could have made your points without displaying innate and full blown bigotry. I guess you’re probablly no different from those Nazi clowns.

  • Cooooon

    Hey! I resent that Dave! The socialist Neo Nazis are just trying to protect their often-persecuted Race! They want a Country where not only is the Government a huge welfare state, but all non-whites are killed or expelled. I suppose anyone darker than cream will be “removed”…as blonde Jesus intended it to be.

  • http://www.breakingwindows.com Matt Paprocki

    Oh boy… here goes this thread…

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    What can I say? My city hates Nazis and they don’t care who knows it!

    (This city is so freakin’ weird. We had a mayoral candidate who said she was God’s chosen one to build an amusement park and turn the government into God’s government. There’s a Hooters across from a Catholic elementery school. Katie Holmes lives here. God bless home.)

  • Cooooon

    …and Katie Holmes should be protected from our Negrodom! She shouldnt have to be subjected to spinning rims and Nike Air-Force ones!

  • Frank

    It is time to rid society of both Nazis and Black racists/criminals. The times of trouble are beginning. Make sure you have more than one gun and thousands of bullets, and friends. Join together to smash the criminals, Rise up and take back your country!

  • Francine

    Yes, I agree, Farakhan says we hate him and his people. Well, we dont, but maybe we should!
    Let’s Go get ‘em!
    Push em back, Push em back, wayyyy back!
    F.U.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I read the various stories about “anti-Nazi” violence in Toledo and said “huh? – how did Americans get so intelligent?” Then I read further and saw that the Nazis were protesting gang violence – and the gangs were on hand to let the Nazis who had dissed them know just who was boss.

    Well, I gotta say, it is better than reading about the traitorous government we have here giving land away to our enemies and pretending they’re making peace.

    Looking at all this from a third of a world away, I have to say that the neo-Nazi clowns did make their point rather well. Mind you, had it been me in charge, the neo-Nazis would be dead now, killed by the gang members they protested against. I have no love for the Neo-Nazis. Nevertheless, the black gangs (sorry, there is just no getting around the race issue here) displayed the same immense intelligence that the Arab rioters who streamed into Gush Katif displayed – destroying hot houses that Jews were forced to abandon a month or so ago.

    Those hothouses would have made the Arabs millions of dollars – but the Arabs had to let their rage rule – and kill their own futures. That is what the gangs are all about, too. Letting rage rule so that it kills one’s own future.

  • http://bgolat.com brian

    i live in toledo, and watched this whole thing progress on the news today.

    i agree 100%. the nazis did little more than show up and maybe yell some comments into the crowd before the walk was cancelled. the crowd took upon themselves to prove exactly what the nazis wanted to show. and they fell for it. i find it pretty pathetic.

    personally if it was my neighborhood, i wouldn’t give them the satisfaction of upsetting me. i wouldn’t set a plan to be home and protest it. let them do what they want and move on. they won’t be back if there isn’t the reaction they are looking for.

  • KJ

    The White Nationalist say the Jews and Blacks are out to destroy them.

    The Blacks say the Jews and Whites are out to destroy them.

    The Jews say the White Nationalist and the Arabs are out to destroy them.

    The Arabs say the Jews and Whites are out to destroy them.

    Everyone is afraid of everyone.

    I forgot where I was going with this….

    The End.

  • Justin Berry

    All I want to know is where the hell was FEMA? Some poor looter could have gotten hurt!

  • David

    why is everyone blaming the gangs.. i live in east l.a. and you’re damn right a riot is gonna break out if the police are protecting an organization that wants us to be slaves again. I dare racist to show there hoods in my city and expect not to get beat down. all the t.v. is showing are the poor nazi bastards being protected. In my opinion there is a greater thing to learn.. the pigs are not on our side they are here to protect and serve the upper class. if you really sympathize with the nazi’s you should really take a look at what side of the line you are standing on. The media is trying to make it look like the real hate group are blacks and minorities. Not So.. What is needed is a multi-racial organization that fight for the interest of the working class.. BREAK WITH THE DEMOCRATS.. FOR A WORKERS PARTY!!!

    ‘Labour cannot emancipate itself in the white skin where in the black skin it is branded.’

  • brian

    i dont sympathize with the nazis. the media isnt trying to make the blacks and minorities look like hate groups.

    how can you try and justify the fact that these people today were committing crimes and destroying their own neighborhoods and local businesses over 10-20 idiots? they more than stepped to the level of nazis, they went below – and for that the nazis won. this rioting/looting went on for hours AFTER the “walk” was cancelled.

    i definately do not like hate groups, but rioting and looting and destroying property that has NOTHING to do with the nazis is unacceptable. the police were there to protect EVERYONE. what about media, rescue workers and innocent people. they were all affected and some vandalized and injured from these idiotic acts.

    at LEAST the damn nazis left in peace and did no physical destruction or caused injuries to people.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    The Nazis have been doing their little rallies for a long long time now. We have always allowed it because of freedom of speech, just like we allowed that huge black rally in D.C. today.

    So why are the blacks getting mad now??? They are not. This rally was even conceled. Those Black gang members were just looking for an excuse to rob and make a scene.

    If I was living in Toledo I would have grabbed my shotgun, then opened my door to attract the looters to my house, then hide around the corner and the second the looters started pouring in a would have blew all their heads offs.

    Then reload and go outside and start a riot of my own.

  • brian

    EXACTLY. it is always ok for black conventions, gatherings, million man marches, etc.

    yes there were a shitload of “gang” members or dressed to be gang members. how does looting the bar, stealing cases of beer, lighting it on fire, flipping cars, have anything to do with any hate group?

  • Justin Berry

    There exists a very simple test to determine if the race of the rioters played a part in their actions.
    Here’s the plan- Have farakhan plan a rally in a predominately white racist stronghold (i.e. Jasper,TX) If the whities go crazy and tearup their own town,then race played no factor.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    I say we should have any kind of convention we want and other people should respect it. We should be able to have Klan meetings and Million Man Marchers.

    And don’t say, “But the Klan is based on hate, and the MIllion Man March is based on positiveness”, because that is bullshit. I watched Farakan’s convention today and I witnessed a lot of Hate speeches about the white race, cops, Republicans, and basically anyone else who isn’t Black.

    The fact is “Freedom of Speech”. We respected the right of the Blacks to have the Million Man March thing eventhough it was based on Hate, so why don’t they respect a small Nazi group meeting in the Park???

  • KJ

    I’m a Black Republican. “Republican” and “Black” aren’t antonyms, Anthony. There are some of us that aren’t reactionary communist that believes the “man” is out to get us, trust me. The Nazis have the right to march PROTECTED anywhere they please. Those gang members simply took advantage of the Nazi presence to loot. It was wrong.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    KJ, you’d be just the kind of person what I would think would be particularly disgusted by this. You could be a black Republican, or a respectable Democrat, or just any apolitical black person what doesn’t like idiots destroying their neighborhood and reflecting badly on everyone there while they do it.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Why does everybody blame the gangs, David? Well, let’s see – they make life miserable for the folks living in their neighborhoods, sell drugs that white men (and Arabs from my neck of the woods) profit off of, they kill people – how’s that for a start?

    Mind you, we’re not talking about sympathy for the Nazi pigs here, just why folks get on gangs.

    Your solution was tried twice, by the way. Both times the attempts were unsuccessful. In the 1920’s Russians established a “dictatorship of the working class” – and killed off millions of people. That dictatorship collapsed in 1990 and now you see the rich folks running the show there, like they did 100 years ago.

    We Jews tried to set up a working class state and succeeded for a while – until TV was introduced here and all the trashy garbage attitudes from America overwhelmed local values. Now things are awful here. Five percent of the people own everthing here, just like they do in the States.

    Sorry to bring you the bad news…

  • Daniel K

    This is Louis Farakhan’s fault. How ironic to have blacks fight Nazis at the behest of a bigot who adores Hitler.

  • Luke

    Those stupid [edited] really piss me off. If there dumb enough to destroy their own [edited] then those spear chuckin [edited] should go the hell back to Africa. If we really want to get rid of crime we should bring back slavery. Or abort the little [edited] before they can go rob a store or marry a white women.

  • Robert

    These pigs got what they deserved and the whole city should’ve been burned down.
    Cheers for the kids who don’t take shit.
    And shame on the morons who can’t see why
    it was a Patriotic duty for them to riot.
    There’s more where this came from.
    The white man must pay the reaper if he wants to dance with fire.

  • Steve

    “”Those stupid [edited] really piss me off. If there dumb enough to destroy their own [edited] then those spear chuckin [edited] should go the hell back to Africa. If we really want to get rid of crime we should bring back slavery. Or abort the little [edited] before they can go rob a store or marry a white women.””

    Hey white trash- you would never have the balls to say something like this to a black man. White men are weak and full of hate in their talk. But thats all you can do is talk. You’ll never be strong. Your day is soon over and you see it. Talk shit all you want.
    Thats all you have left, Talk.
    You weak peice of shit. Thats why your women don’t want you anymore. They laugh at you. And so does the world.
    Nevermind the black man. Your doomed.

  • whiteykiller

    yo blood unite. we can take all these stupid whiteys to hell. whos wit me!!

  • bongmaster

    yo everybody needs to hit the hooka man!!!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    It’s curious to me to try to tell folks apart here. It’s difficult, for example, to figure out Whiteykiller in comment 34. Nominally, it’s a person of color wanting to kill whitey. There are some who think that way, but it’s just so stupidly over the top that KW could just as easily be a Klan sympathizer putting words in a fictional black mouth.

    Likewise with Luke carrying on about sending blacks back to Africa in comment 31. Those dumbass comments would make more sense if you looked at them as a black guy trying to rouse ire against whitey or some such.

  • no.oneframer

    i build custom homes and ive never seen a [edited] in construction. how come is it too hard of work!! all you [edited] are good at is looting face the facts stuppid.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    The hurricane names reset to ‘A,’ and Adolf just came from Lake Erie and hit the Glass City.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Gives a whole new spin to the John Denver song, “Saturday Night in Toledo, Ohio” doesn’t it?

  • Shark

    Nothing better than a well-dressed, well-groomed, well-behaved Nazi.

    Nothing more ironic than a Nazi protesting “gang violence”. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while.

    PS: Congrats, Big Al, you’ve done it again. Too bad the Diva ain’t around to consummate your foreplay.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Aw, Shark, ya had to go and invoke the Diva, didn’t ya? Now I’m gettin’ all misty eyed.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    While the white supremacists didn’t throw a single projectile today, that whole Holocaust thingee a while back still puts them at a very high rate of murders per year.

  • El Bicho

    I’m just glad this didn’t happen in Illinois.

    “I hate Illnois Nazis.”

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Superb article, Al. My thoughts exactly.

    Now, I’ll dive into reading the comments section… [shudder]

  • doug

    I’m from the midwest and I’m glad to be away from the midwest. The lack of perspective by most of those making comments on this sad situation is breathtaking. Everyone sees this from their own skewed vision, and usually takes sides according to race. Wake up people, we’ve got domestic terrorists within, foreign terrorists at our door steps, thieving politicians lying to you and stealing what little cash you have, the elite turning the common joe against one another, and you’re so blind that you’re worried about a gas station getting looted, or complaining that your community’s strife is preventing you from taking your kids to the zoo! Hello, you are all about to suffer a fate a lot worse than that, if you don’t wake up and start trying to solve the real problems of “your” city, your country and your “world community. Internal strife and external pressures have brought down many a great nations, but why don’t you just continue sitting there pointing fingers at those “other” people, until you find your city, your country, and your world in ruins.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Anyone else find it ironic that Neo Nazis planned to rally against gang violence?”

    Yep. Like Al pointed out, the rioters made the NAZI’s own point for them…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “They knew exactly what they were doing. They claimed they needed no police presence, when even ignorant fools like them know they’ll get it.”

    There is always a large police presence when white-supremacists march, and it’s not because the racists are likely to become violent. It’s always the idiotic “anti-racist” protestors/rioters who go berzerk and cause injuries and property damage.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “I dare racist to show there hoods in my city and expect not to get beat down.”

    So, you support violence against people who hold opinions counter to yours?

    “the pigs are not on our side they are here to protect and serve the upper class.”

    White-supremacists tend to be about as NON-upper class as you can get…

  • melallen

    Great article!

    Anyone who professes to be surprised by the behavior of the rioters in Toledo is living in a dream world. Just take a good look at the current sorry state of American society. And while you’re at it, take a good look and a good listen around you at what is hilariously regarded as our “popular culture.” If the garbage that assaults my eyes and ears everyday is indeed “popular,” then we are in serious trouble as a nation.

    I realize that currently we are not allowed to even slightly criticize these morons, but that must change. Those of us who care about public safety and decency need to band together and do whatever it takes to to regain control of our society and culture before they are irrevocably lost.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    >I’m a Black Republican. “Republican” and “Black” aren’t antonyms, Anthony. There are some of us that aren’t reactionary communist that believes the “man” is out to get us, trust me. The Nazis have the right to march PROTECTED anywhere they please. Those gang members simply took advantage of the Nazi presence to loot. It was wrong.<

    KJ, I totally agree with this comment. You got me wrong. I wasn’t saying black people in general were anti-Republican, I was saying that that Million Man March thing that took place yesterday was full of hate against everyone who wasn’t black.

    There are many Black Republicans: J.C. Watts, Clarence Thomas, Poweell, and I will proudly say:

    CONY RICE 4 PRESIDENT!!!

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Rabbit food for president, Anthony?

    Perhaps you meant Condi Rice

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Yes Doctor, I left out the “D” in Condy.

  • Clarence McCay

    I have seen hatred in some of these comments.
    I believe that if we all (black, whites,jews and all races) would use the energy that it took to hate and use that energy to love and make peace then this world would be a much better place to live.
    Come on people lets all try to love one another and make this world a better place to live.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yes Clarence, but love is not ALL we need. That love needs to be applied up side the head sometimes. What exactly is the truly most loving thing to do in situations like this? Is it to just pat criminals on the head and let it go, or is it to bust some thugs down hard enough to keep the peace?

    If the broader community responds to this type of situation with some clucking about the understandable grievances about blah blah blah, is that a display of love or mere cowardice?

  • Amanda

    All of you ‘pro-pigs’ are forgetting that this whole situation IS about race, not about free speech. The pigs are protecting the Nazi’s motive to spread the idea of genocide of blacks and minorities. The Million Man March was for blacks to march for atonement. Not to spread the idea of facism. Who has ever heard of a black facist? NO-ONE! I also live in East L.A. and gangs do not spread violence. They protect the neighborhood better than the cops. But if any of you are that ignorant to the fact that we will step aside and let Nazi facists spread their ideas… then you are ignorant. Pigs are here to serve and protect private property. They are not out for the interest of blacks, minorities, lower-class, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to protect you. They got what they deserve.

    Todays pig, tomorrows bacon.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “I also live in East L.A. and gangs do not spread violence. They protect the neighborhood better than the cops.”

    Oh, yeah. VERY credible…

  • Rob B

    Though I do not support the Nazi group, they have the RIGHT to demonstrate (It’s called free speech people) To Amamda, the Nazi group did not burn a bar or trash a gas station! The gangs did. And of the MMM. On many occasions,(I did watch most of it) I heard hate spew from the mouths of the many, but not all the speakers. The NOI national youth leader stated ” the enemy does not wear blue or red, he wears white, even when he is naked” Who is this enemy he is talking about?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    If you hate non-whites, and you want to utilize your free-speech rights by marching in a town, you are an unpopular person, and a hater.

    If, in response, you attack police, overturn cars, and loot stores before burning them to the ground, you are a violent criminal.

    As has been said, the NAZIs looked good compared to their opponents, in this case…

  • melallen

    Hey, man! Let’s give peace a chance. War! Huuuuuh! Good God, y’all. What is it good for? Absolutely nuthin’. (Say it again.) Hey, man, can’t we all just get along? I mean, what the world needs now is love, sweet love. Come on people, now, smile on your brother. Everbody get together, gotta love one another right now. (Right now. Right now.) And for good measure we can all gather ‘roun’ the communal campfire, hold hands, and sing “Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya.” That oughta get results!

    Now, let’s fast-forward to the real world. Hey, man, the hippie-infested 60s, thankfully, are over. I went thru all that back then and don’t want to have to go thru something like that again. The authentic “hippies” I had the pleasure to come into contact with back in the day, as they say, were for the most part self-righteous, self-centered, cynical, and sinister. A sorry lot, indeed. Love and peace, my butt! That’s not at all what those phony phreaks were about.

    To achieve true and lasting peace and love for all is certainly a laudable goal, but we’re goin’ to have to slap some people into line along that long and winding road to utopia. And of course we’ll have to be careful to weed out the Charlie Manson types among us.

  • David

    To Rob B.

    Their right to demostrate is not called free speech.. Free speach would be letting someone give there idea or opinions.. Nazi’s spread terror and the call of racial genocide. Sure white supremist say they are for the purifacation of of there race but it’s what they practice that says who they are.. just ask blacks in the south. I know others do have some interesting opinions that i may not agree with and that’s ok as long as they are not preaching about a preparing for a holy white war i’m ok with. someone can isult me as much as they like.. i understand that i don’t have the right not to get offended.. Some of you compared Louis F. to a nazi.. i agree with Amanda.. Even though anyone can be racist.. there have only been white fascist.. argue against that.. Louis F. is a racist and his call for atonement is a joke.. Farakahn is a racist prick and a false leader just like that liar/idiot rev. jackson and al sharpton..

  • Good Riddance

    Good. Burn that bitch down. Teach the city to allow Nazi’s to march in that city again.

    Funny how cops protect Nazi marchers and their 1st Amendment rights and yet if you join a protest march against the government or war you get arrested for ‘blocking traffic’.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Mugabe seems rather like a fascist dictator hell-bent on starving/killing his political opponents…and he’s the black leader of Zimbabwe!

  • Luke

    There’s a racist on here with the same name as me, so I guess from now on i’ll have to call myself “the nice luke” as apposed to “the racist inbred piece of shit luke”

    The moral of the story is, don’t let nazi’s march anywhere there are black folks, instead march them where there’re jews, that way white folks will get pissed off and prove that we’re not racist, and secondly, they probably won’t riot or burn things.

  • melallen

    My, my! Can’t we all just get along?!!

  • Rob B

    David, This is verbatim from the first amenment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” Again I do not support the Nazi group. But they had the right under the law to assemble. It was the gangs that caused the damage in this instance. Hell, the mayor was threatened by members of the gangs. You had members of the neighborhood give excuses for the very gangs that trashed their neighborhood. Reference to Fascism and a fascist, this is the definition: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. The continent of Africa is full of them. Leaving out South Africa, the number exceeds ten and their are all Black. Every country has its history or its present time. If you do not learn from history, you will end up repeating it.

  • Luke

    boohoo rob, whether it’s allowable under the law or not, a little common sense wouldn’t hurt, if a group of people is prone to start rioting and burning things when they get pissed off, DON’T PISS THEM OFF, the law says you can do the thing that pisses them off, but the law of common sense says you probably shouldn’t.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    So Luke, black people riot when they get pissed off?

    The mayor seemed relatively calm. Then again, he never shows emotion. He got that from Data of Star Trek: TNG.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Trying to get sideways out from under the race issue here, try this mental exercise to approximate an appropriate response: Imagine that for some reason the crackers in Franklin County Indiana got all rabbit ass crazy on some bad moonshine and homemade meth, and went rioting in Brookville. They loot and burn the Pioneer bar, generally causing destruction and mayhem.

    What would be the appropriate thing to do if a bunch of white hilljacks were out of control? Apply the same answer to the equivalent situation with black folks going nuts in Toledo. Fair enough?

  • Luke

    Yes Matthew, they do, at least more so than white people, in this instance black folks started a riot, in new orleans again black folks got pissed off and started rioting, I’m surprised you’d even need to ask that question, I’d have thought the answer would’ve been blatantly obvious. Having said that, here is where I’m suppose to say not all black people riot, just like not all arabs are terrorists, or not all jews are lawyers or not all whites are racist hillbillies etc etc.

  • John Q.

    Finally a riot worth being a part of. Wish I was there. Now cities will get it. Sponsor a march and die.
    White supremacist marches are not peaceful. It’s equal to throwing a kill U.S. soldiers march. Nobodys is down with hating black people who fight our wars.

  • Luke

    David, This is verbatim from the first amenment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    Where in that does it say we have to block traffic so that people we don’t like can piss everyone off, there needn’t be a law passed to stop people from peacefully assembling, all that they had to do, was not give them permission to march, their right’s would not have been violated, if anything, it violates peoples right to use a public street, and everyone should be happy about that because it meant some racist shit eating fuck heads could march around a little bit, who the hell would go to so much trouble to make the nazi’s happy? Fucking stupid.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Luke, you got life all messed up there in comment 71. “Not give them permission to march” is the same thing as you say it as positively prohibiting them. Fifteen of them could perfectly well have marched their dumb asses down the sidewalk without blocking traffic at all.

    The whole point of this free speech thing is that you have to tolerate the free speech of schmuck faces. The fact that you don’t like what they want to say doesn’t mean you get to shut them down. That’d be acting like…well, a Nazi.

  • Luke

    That’s bullshit, just because you want to say what ever you want, why does that mean you should be about to block traffic? if they could’ve marched their dumb asses down the sidewalk then that’s exactly what they should’ve done. How the fuck does marching have anything to do with speaking?

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Luke, that marching would fall under “peaceable assembly.” What else is it that you think free speech means, that we all have a right to say absolutely anything that Luke agrees with?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Let me say right now how glad I am that Luke and his complete lack of constitutional reading comprehension are not on the supreme court.

    dave

  • Luke

    you aren’t getting my point, how are nazi’s not able to peacefully assemble everyday of their lives without marching in the middle of the fucking street?

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    Technically the sidewalk is used by pedestrians, bicyclists and skaters — so that would be blocking traffic too. Where do you want to draw the line?

  • Luke

    are you dave, I thought we were buddies, all I have to say is, if I was in charge, black street gang members wouldn’t start rioting because I let nazi’s march down the street near where they live, if I ever let those fuckers march at all, or I’d purposely let the nazi’s march so I’d be able to have gang members arrested when they start rioting, throw those stupid fuckers in jail.

  • John Q.

    this freedom of speech argument is an excuse.
    a decade ago a women who’s child was murdered was walking to the store. on the way the murderer who was out on bail, yelled, “where’s your son?” you bet your ass the mom went postal. she got a shotgun and killed the arrogant psycho.
    this is what nazi marches are. in your face. who the hell puts up with a group of adults that watches lynches of their ancestors before playing catch with their kids. it is intended to provoke. threats are made. and that is when it no longer becomes freedom of speech. anybody who says i love watching you folks die doesn’t deserve a march.

    white supremacists have killed more americans than al qaeda! difference is al qaeda-by-association gets you in lockdown in guantanamo bay. how much freedom of speech does a suspected terrorist deserve. if nazis get to march let al qaeda march. let them kill each other of this planet.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Technically the sidewalk is used by pedestrians, bicyclists and skaters — so that would be blocking traffic too. Where do you want to draw the line?

    Walking/marching on the sidewalk doesn’t require a permit, while doing the same thing with the same number of people on the street does require a permit.

    I read in another article that the city denied the Nazi group a permit to march in the street. There’s nothing they can do about them walking down the sidewalk, though.

  • Luke

    technically you’re a retard, sidewalks are for people, roads are for cars, that’s the most obvious fucking line available, if you can’t figure out where to draw the line, you should have your brain recycled.

  • Shark

    * Nazis are bad.

    * Rioters/looters are bad.

    * Sidewalks are for pedestrians.

    * Streets are for autos.

    * “Marches” are for brass bands.

    * Al Barger loves to post subtle race baiting ‘essays’ while trying to appear ‘logical’, dispassionate, and non-partisan.

    ~End of “debate”

    NEXT ASSIGNMENT:

    Compare black Toledo looters to white Enron executives.

    Compare damage to American society from actions of the above ‘groups’ of criminals.

    Compare jail sentences among both groups as of today, Oct. 17, 2005

    ~ gotta run! The Apprentice with Martha Stewart is on!

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Luke, the only retard here is the one who doesn’t understand the American Constitution and the right of the people to peaceably assemble.

    In other words, you can’t keep Nazis — or any other group — from walking peacefully on public sidewalks, which is what they were planning to do. You *can* deny them a permit to march in the street, which is apparently what the city did in this case.

    Freedom is scary, isn’t it, Luke?

  • Anon

    this excerpt was posted by a guy named Mark Plaid in the SHARP (skinheads against racial prejudice) forum, its his report of what happened while he was there:

    “We had ARA (Anti-Racist Action) representatives from Kent, Ohio: Columbus; Pittsburgh; Philedelphia; New Jersey; Toronto; and possibly more. I would say that over 50 people showed at the staging area. When we marched to Woodward High School (incidentally my high school alma mater) more people came out to march with us from the neighborhood. That is a very integrated neighborhood and people from many ethnic backgrounds showed.

    When we got to Woodward, the first thing I noticed were boneheads standing side by side with cops. At least two of the boneheads were brandishing SUBMACHINE guns. In all there were only about 30 of them.”

    THEY HAD MACHINE GUNS!

    That ends it for me.
    Peaceful assembly?
    NO – instigation is more like it.
    Can anyone be surprised?
    I’m glad they rioted.

  • Nancy

    If gangstas trash their own neighborhoods over the transparent & flimsy excuse that they’re outraged by a march that didn’t even take place, well, they get what they deserve & they deserve to be forced to live in that pigsty they’ve created – and if they want it fixed, they can damn well buy the lumber etc. & fix it themselves. A little hard work won’t hurt any of these shitheads. And the people who live around them & tolerate their crap deserve it, too. They all tore it up themselves, let them all build it back up themselves, or live like the vermin they’ve proved themselves to be, instead of human beings.

  • Luke

    You piece of shit, when did I ever say they can’t walk on the fucking sidewalk? Read what I said you moron, I made it explicitly clear that racist shithead nazi’s can march up and down the god damn sidewalk all they like, but going out of your way to let them have a special march down the street and fuck up traffic so they can piss off black gang members and cause a riot is a stupid thing to do. Now don’t ever mention sidewalks again.

  • Luke

    Damn right Nancy, not to mention all the poor folks who’re forced to live in those shitty areas and endure gang related stupidity everyday, they’re vermin too, let them live in the rotting hellhole created by everyone else, the only reason they’re in that situation is because they lack the drive to bother getting out of it themselves, the kind of superior drive that all us surburban white folks know we have.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    All i have to say is…where are the blues brothers when you need them???

  • Luke

    Society really just needs to take out the trash, here’s my remedy, it only takes one generation to break the cycle, so every kid born in the next 10 years, gets taken by the government and brainwashed, and everyone else will become nice and docile from the drugs in the water, and everyone in the future will have to repeat this mantra 100 times every 10 minutes “I’m okay, you’re okay” Only then will we be free of pointless voilence, just like that movie equilibrium, that gun-fu shit was crunk fo shizzoez.

  • MCH

    Hey Luke, I dare you to call bhw those names to her face. She’d slap you so hard you’d starve to death backing up.

  • Luke

    I doubt it, I can take a pretty hard slap.

  • Nancy

    I didn’t say “all the poor folks”; I said all those who tolerate their crap. A lot of the poor in these neighborhoods are standing up & refusing to take it any more, working w/the kids & police to get these maggots & their support systems out so decent people can live in peace. Good for them! I’m talking the friends, girlfriends, parents & other relatives who condone this behavior or look the other way instead of doing what they should do, shun them, throw them out, turn them in, as so many are going in some neighborhoods.

    Actually, these guys are underemployed; why doesn’t BushCo round them all up & give them a chance to work out their mad digging people out of the rubble and/or rebuilding shelters, etc. in places like Afghanistan? At least they’d learn construction skills.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Luke – sorry, but that’s BS. Take a look at Newark, NJ in the 50’s. My father was born and raised there! There was a time when it was a nice town. There was a time when people gave a damn about where they lived. Why is it my responsibility to maintain everyone elses front yard? I don’t know what that section of town where these riots took place looks like now or looked like then, but I’d be willing to place a bet!

  • NANCY is STUPID

    “Actually, these guys are underemployed; why doesn’t BushCo round them all up & give them a chance to work out their mad digging people out of the rubble and/or rebuilding shelters, etc. in places like Afghanistan? At least they’d learn construction skills.”

    DAMN YOUR STUPID NANCY.

  • Nancy

    LOL – better than being an illiterate fool like you. By the way, use your actual ID, not a duplicate, you spineless coward.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    The erudite Luke writes:

    how are nazi’s not able to peacefully assemble everyday of their lives without marching in the middle of the fucking street?

    And then he goes on again:

    That’s bullshit, just because you want to say what ever you want, why does that mean you should be about to block traffic? if they could’ve marched their dumb asses down the sidewalk then that’s exactly what they should’ve done.

    And then when I tell him that the Nazis were going to use the sidewalk, that they weren’t going to be blocking traffice, he goes all bonkers and adds:

    I made it explicitly clear that racist shithead nazi’s can march up and down the god damn sidewalk all they like, but going out of your way to let them have a special march down the street and fuck up traffic so they can piss off black gang members and cause a riot is a stupid thing to do.

    Luke, my hotheaded boy, my point was that you keep talking about the group blocking traffic in the street, when in fact they were going to use the sidewalk.

    From Salon.com:

    [The mayor] said the city indicated it wouldn’t give the Nazis a permit to march in the streets but couldn’t stop them from marching on the sidewalks like other citizens.

    But don’t let the facts get in the way of your wild rantings.

    And MCH has at least one thing right: you wouldn’t have the balls to say to my face the things that you’re saying to me here.

  • Rob B

    “Actually, these guys are underemployed; why doesn’t BushCo round them all up & give them a chance to work out their mad digging people out of the rubble and/or rebuilding shelters, etc. in places like Afghanistan? At least they’d learn construction skills.”

    Oh, thats right, the rioting was the fault of President Bush. Just as the hurricanes (He steped in a puddle while on the east coast and the ripple created the hurricane). Damn that man. And the raining on the north-east. He must have left the water running on the front lawn of the White House. And lets not forget he started the fires in california when he threw his cigarette out of Air Force One on his way back from visiting Arnold.

  • Nancy

    Never said the riots were Bush’s fault; I was just suggesting a constructive mutual use for these idle men with too much energy & nothing to do with it, & Bush’s dilemna of being unable to get anyone to sign up for his fake wars. The gangstas get experience, learn discipline, & some skills beyond looting, Bush gets some cannon fodder for his particular pathology, and the poor but innocent neighbors get some peace & security in what’s left of the neighborhood. Maybe even the surviving reformed gangstas can come back & help them to rebuild it to be better.

  • Rob B

    Nancy, If they wanted or needded a job, (Many probably do have jobs, I would hope as this happened on a sat.) they don’t need a hand out, they need motivation.

  • Nancy

    This may be true. Question, tho: do gang members hold jobs? A local publication ran a series on how jobs help wean kids away from gangs – the gang members themselves said as much, that if they were employed, they wouldn’t have time for a gang. Given that the reports all said that these guys were in gang colors, etc., then in fact do they work? I don’t count criminal activities as work, btw, so any labor stealing cars, pimping, doing drugs, etc. doesn’t count.

    I may be anti-Bush, but I’m certainly not anti-troops, and I think the military is one of the best things that could happen to any young person. You learn discipline, basic life skills they generally don’t teach you in school, most ex-military are self-confident & self-respecting, and Lordy, do they have lovely manners! I wish actually (if we weren’t in a bogus war) that there was an automatic 2-year period of service when kids got out of high school. It would have been great for my sister. It certainly was good for me & gave me time to ‘look around’. I never regretted it – altho as I said, I am the first to acknowledge that under this particular administration, I wouldn’t advise it. Bush is ‘way too callous & careless with American lives. Any shit-for-brains who says, “bring ‘em on” when HE’S not the one going into danger …. !

  • Rob B

    I am a vet with 26 yrs of service. 20 as an enlisted Military Police officer and then 5 years ago I went back to school and earned a BSN. I came back in as a comissioned officer in the Army Nurse Corp. I thank you for your service to OUR country. I don’t see serving my country as a waste of my time(I did not say that you did) I do not pick my battles or which wars to fight. Iraq is a better country today than under Hussein…No doubts about it. I spent 14 month called to active duty as a trauma nurse at Landstuhl Regional Medical center in Germany caring for our wounded warriors. They are the ones who are seeing the good that we are doing there, not the politician (Reps or Dems) The stories they tell of the hope and heroism is unbelievable. Go to link and at thee bottom of the page is a link to a journal I wrote about my time there. As a prior military member you will be proud of what they do, As I know you already are.

  • ss

    Shark:

    Good call on Barger.

    BHW & Luke:

    The point here isn’t ‘street or sidewalk’. According to the Supreme Court, freedom of speech means you can have and state any opinion you want, in an appropriate forum. ‘You can’t yell FIRE! in a crowded theater’ actually comes from the majority opinion in a Supreme Court ruling. If you state your opinion in a deliberate attempt to cause a riot, the government is obligated to maintain the peace.

    Our courts have had a blind spot when it comes to Nazi’s since I was a kid. I can only speculate as to why.
    But the Nazi’s were obviously deliberately attempting to provoke a public disturbance. The fact that they did does not reflect poorly on ‘negroes’, to use Al’s word.
    It reflects poorly on the courts that have allowed Nazi’s to abuse their right of free speech, in ways others are not allowed, since the Skokie march.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yeah there Shark, why don’t ya back your bullshit up a step there [comment 82]:

    * Al Barger loves to post subtle race baiting ‘essays’ while trying to appear ‘logical’, dispassionate, and non-partisan.

    ~End of “debate”

    No, NOT end of debate. Thank you for crediting me with subtlety, but in what way is this “race baiting”? Is is possible to address ill behavior by a minority group that would not get me this label?

    I see that you wish to take the place of Mac Diva with hurling the baseless racial accusations. But Shark, I knew Mac Diva, and you’re no Mac Diva.

    Instead, you seem to think that the ill behavior of Enron executives somehow excuses these idiots in Toledo. These are completely unrelated topics with no logical or rational connection. Enron executives who have robbed shareholders should be punished, and so should schmucks rioting and looting in the street.

    Then again, you have repeatedly and explicitly rejected reason as a standard, which leaves only your emotional whim as a basis of judgment.

    Is there some reason why your avowedly irrational whims should be taken as a serious point of debate?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    SS, you have no basis in reason. Stating unpopular opinions in the streets is NOT the same as shouting “fire” in a crowded theater, not anything like it. Lying to make people think there is a fire is not equivalent to stating an unpopular opinion.

    If they state their stupid and unpopular opinion suspecting that someone will react violently, that’s still the responsibility of someone to control their own behavior.

    If Farrakhan came marching down the street here in Laurel talking nonsense about white devils, that would not give the local crackers a right to act like rampaging animals. Same when the shoes on the other foot.

    And what’s this all about? “the courts that have allowed Nazi’s to abuse their right of free speech, in ways others are not allowed” Their ideas might be dumb, but how have they “abused” the right to free speech, and who has not been allowed similar freedom of speech in this country?

  • ss

    Al:

    Even you have to know you’re choice of the words

    ‘…but the local Negroes…’

    in this post, was likely to be seen as a little deragatory.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    I think the proper term is “Nubians.”

  • ss

    Just so comment 104, Al.

    The case before the SCOTUS where the famous line ‘you can’t yell FIRE! in a crowded theater’ wasn’t literally about someone yelling fire in a crowded a theater. They meant you can’t deliberately provoke a public disturbance.
    This ruling was upheld in (I believe it was) Feinman v The State of New York.
    Feinman was a young Jewish kid who fought in WWII and came home determined to wipe out segregation. He gave a speech on a street corner where he urged blacks to rise up against whites. A scuffle started in the crowd and Feinman was arrested.
    He argued he was arrested wrongfully in that the arrest violated his right to free speech. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court, that found against him, citing the case in which the famous line
    ‘you can’t yell FIRE! in a crowded theater’
    was used in a similiar manner.
    What Feinman did, and what the Nazi party has sought to do repeatedly since they got away with it in Skokie, seem like pretty much the same thing to me.

    You can say what you want, but you can’t go out of your way to create a public disturbance doing it.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yes SS, I intended to be a little derogatory to these particular ill behaving people. “Negro” is not in fact a derogatory term, but a lot of people now decide to take it that way because they are determined to look for anything they can take offense at.

    As a term of offense, “Negro” is very mild for people acting this bad and stupid. Anyone who goes out rioting and looting and then takes offense at being described as a “Negro” is certainly welcome to get bent so far as I am concerned.

  • Cracker

    I’m offended by the term cracker. I know the history of the term. “A white slave master cracking the whip on a slave” This term is sterotypical and degrading!

  • ss

    As I see this law, and many actual judges have interpreted it differently, Farrakan can call you a white devil on any nuetral territory he wants, but your local court would be justified in barring him from marching in Laurel if they could demonstrate he was only doing it to cause a public disturbance.

  • ss

    And it wasn’t that long ago Farrakan marching in any predominately white town would have caused a riot.
    The difference, Al, is that progress has reached your town, maybe more of it than you’d like. In some parts of Toledo, they’d like to see any progress not on the t.v., but it hasn’t made it there yet.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    Yes SS, I intended to be a little derogatory to these particular ill behaving people.

    So… if there had been murders would you have been willing to call the people N******s??

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    If you state your opinion in a deliberate attempt to cause a riot, the government is obligated to maintain the peace.

    And that’s why the police were there, in case they needed to maintain the peace *during the walk*. However, if you have not yet opened your mouth, the government has no right to prevent you from walking down the sidewalk. The government can deny you a permit to use the street, but everyone has the right to walk on the sidewalk until they’ve broken the law in some way.

    Just being there doesn’t count as breaking the law. If it did, just about anyone could be restricted from walking in a particular neighborhood just because they weren’t liked by the majority of people who live there.

    And that’s why the sidewalk/street difference does matter. The government did all it could to deter the group from coming by saying no to the street permit, but they couldn’t proactively take away the group’s right to use the sidewalk.

  • ss

    I think your kind of splitting hairs on this street/sidewalk issue.
    If the intent of a group of Nazi’s having an assembly in a predominately black neighborhood was to cause a public disturbance, then the Nazi’s abused their right to free speech.
    The police could have restricted them.
    And when other groups protest in a way that is meant to cause a public disturbance, members of that group often do get arrested.
    We just like to coddle Nazi’s because it proves how determined we are to accept the free expression of any idea, and to prove you can legally belong to any political party you want.
    We haven’t been so open in the past, and the Nazi’s are taking advantage of our penance for past mistakes.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yeah there Dodger, that’s some nonsense. Criticize what I actually say, not some strawman that you’d like to imagine me saying. Negro is a perfectly good word, and not being concerned with offending a schmuck with a word that is not negative in the first place is totally different than using the N bomb.

    SS, you are certainy welcome to get well and thoroughly bent with your insinuations about more progress than I’d like. That’s exactly the kind of bullshit that I’ll have no patience for: anybody who is critical of any foolishness by members of a minority group gets tarred as a racist.

    Let me say it again, real slow so you can get the point: My goal would be to treat these schmucks in Toledo with exactly the same standards and social expectations I would apply to my neighbors in my hood.

    The only difference being that if it were my local people, particularly anyone that I personally knew, I’d probably be using considerably harsher language.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    You said that you chose to use a racial word that you know is offensive becasue you objected to the behavior of the people you were describing. (You already said you intended to be derogatory, so don’t act like it was an innocent word choice on your part.)

    I only wondered, if they had engaged in behavior you found more objectionable, would you have used a racial term that was more derogatory.

    And before you say this is a concern that is completely out of left field, let me say: I’ve actually heard people say things like “I only use N***** to talk about the bad ones.” Your logic seems similar to me…

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    I think your kind of splitting hairs on this street/sidewalk issue.

    Maybe, but as far as I can tell, it’s a factual part of the story. The street permit was denied.

    If the intent of a group of Nazi’s having an assembly in a predominately black neighborhood was to cause a public disturbance, then the Nazi’s abused their right to free speech.

    The problem is that any unliked group could be said to be trying to cause a public disturbance. What’s your standard of proof? Without one that’s very precise and measurable, we would put any kind of public protest at risk just because the majority of people in the region don’t like the message.

    A group of anti-abortion protesters routinely stand on the sidewalk at a corner about a mile from my house. If my neighborhood was predominantly pro-choice, could we argue that these people were just here to antagonize and provoke us to violence, thereby getting the police to prevent them from using their constitutional right? What are they doing in MY neighborhood, putting their signs in front of MY children? Why, it makes me so MAD I could start tossing rocks!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    No TA, “Negro” is not an offensive word. It is a neutral, or perhaps even clinical word, equivalent to caucasian. It is not a derogatory slang term at all.

    I know that some people choose to become offended by the word, but they are wrong to do so, and I refuse to accept the whole structure of intellectual intimidation that certain groups get to set and reset the rules of conduct like this, threatening anyone who objects with charges of racism.

    I used a neutral word, and simply did not choose to care that some folks might decide to use that as an excuse to be shitty with whitey rather than addresssing the ridiculous behavior of these miscreants.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “I also live in East L.A. and gangs do not spread violence. They protect the neighborhood better than the cops”

    In Little Italy, not East L.A.

    Them little Mexican cartels sell drugs to their own neighborhood kids.

    ——–

    Fifteen fricken Nazis!!!

    Fifteen Nazis wanted to have a small rally. If Blacks were actually offended by this they should have use their HUGE numbers in a peaceful Anti-Demonstration. Not tearing apart their own neighborhoods.

    Plus, nobody was even offended by this. It was just a whole bunch of misfits who saw a chance to stir up some trouble. So let’s not even talk about the Nazis anymore since they had nothing to do with it.

    Let’s start talking about cracking down on Gangs and promoting some Black leaders, like Bill Cosby, who will actually do something positive with the race.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    How can someone say that “Negro” is an offensive word???

    Negro literally means “Black” in both Italian and Spanish. Is Black an offensive word???

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    Al,
    Here’s what you said in your last comment:
    It is a neutral, or perhaps even clinical word, equivalent to caucasian. It is not a derogatory slang term at all.

    Here’s what you said in the comment before that:
    Yes SS, I intended to be a little derogatory to these particular ill behaving people

    Don’t blame other people for interpreting a word as derogatory and offensive when you use it as a derogatory and say so yourself.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Negro is how you describe someone. If he used “n***er” instead then it would have been derogatory.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    If he used “n****” instead then it would have been derogatory.

    He used it as a derogatory term. See Comment #108, in which Al says exactly that.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    I wouldn’t say ‘…but the local Negroes…’ is deragatory.

    But in comment 108 it seems that he was trying to get out of something he thought he might get critisized for. Kind a like a liberal. “I voted for the 87 Billiion, before I voted against it.”

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    TA, my general tone was not particularly conciliatory. I have a negative opinion of people who behave this way, and I did not intend on pretending otherwise.

    However, the specific word “Negro” is not a derogatory term. I intended on avoiding inflammatory language, largely on the basis of it not being necessary. On review, the only specifically derogatory term I used was “jackass.” Perhaps that was unnecessary.

    Or perhaps y’all can just cut to the chase, and explain why it was Bush’s fault and that the Negroes of north Toledo really had no other recourse to protest the injustice being done to them.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    I interpreted comment 108 as saying that you only used the word “negro” because you disapproved of these people’s actions, and that you intended the word (not the post as a whole) to be derogatory. If, in fact, you were referring to your “general tone” and not the language SS was asking about in #105, it was not clear in context, and I misinterpreted you.

    I still wonder, if you wanted people to focus on the issue, why you chose to use a word that you knew would offend some people, and possibly distract from the issue.

    Is using “negro” something you do without thinking?
    Do you have an ideological reason for using the word?
    Do you feel it is more precise for some reason?

    I’m honestly curious.

    Or perhaps y’all can just cut to the chase, and explain why it was Bush’s fault and that the Negroes of north Toledo really had no other recourse to protest the injustice being done to them.
    Hmmm…. Maybe because we (or at least I) don’t think it’s true.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    This is more specific analysis than I put into the original use of the word here, but I might describe the usage here as formal and slightly emotionally distant, rather than terms I would more commonly use, such as what I would intend as a quietly friendly term like “black folks.”

    I might would liken the modulation in tone between “black folks” and “Negroes” to how I deal with children. When they’re ill behaving, it goes from friendly pronouns to formal Christian names. Instead of “howdy, buddy” it might become “Daniel Wayne, come here.”

    I chafe at finer points of people deciding to be offended by non-offensive words like this largely because it represents to me a kind of intimidation. You’re going to jump through all of our arbitrary hoops, and never displease us, or you will be branded a racist and ostracised.

    Homey don’t play that. I particularly don’t play that in this specific situation. I’m really not going to feel apologetic for using this neutral word to describe a bunch of people whose mothers obviously did not raise them right. I’m just not worried about hurting their little bitty feelings.

  • melallen

    Hold on right there! You mean we can’t use the term “n*g*o” anymore? Good grief! What’s next?!! Whooooa! Wait just a minute. I’m forever hearing radio spots for something called the United Negro College Fund. Really! And if you don’t believe me, then turn on your radio. When I was a child in the rural South back in the 1950’s, we were told that it was “not nice” to use the so-called “n-word.” Instead, we were instructed to use “Negro,” which was, and remains, the proper term. I repeat: was, and remains, the proper term. Besides, in Spanish, the word “negro” means “black,” so what’s the problem here? Huh?!!!

    Also, I’ve heard that “colored people” is now considered at least a moderately offensive term. If that’s so, then maybe someone needs to rename the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Wow!

    Why does all of this seem so stupefyingly illogical, you ask? Because it IS so stufpefyingly illogical, dadburnit!

    Okay. From this day forward I don’t want anyone, ever again, to refer to me as a Caucasian. I’m giving you fair warning that all of a sudden I find that term extremely offensive. What’s my reason, you ask? Well, I really don’t have a reason yet, but give me time and I’ll think of one. Besides, if I choose to find a word offensive, that’s my right and my business, which means you’ll have to respect my feelings and wishes. For the time being, you can refer to me as “white” — at least for the time being. Of course, that too is subject to change without warning. So in the future please be careful whenever you refer to me. You know what? Come to think of it, the best thing to do is simply not refer to me at all.

  • nugget

    what the hell is a socialist neo nazi?

    A socialist nazi? Am I missing something?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yes Nugget, apparently. The Nazis were “national socialists.” Nazis are a type of socialist. They practiced socialistic economics, just to a different goal somewhat than the “nice” welfare state socialists running much of Europe now.

  • nugget

    I understand that, but I think the only real correlation is dictatorship. Fascism and Socialism do have similar economic gameplans, but on the political spectrum they are complete opposites. That being said, the end result is always the same. Socialists are just a little more tactful and well meaning.

    I dunno, it hits the ear kinda funny.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Al, the use of the word Negro is, at best, dated, but unfortunately, it looks like you’ve used it to be confrontational.

    It’s an old term that in the US has essentially died out. [I’m pretty sure you know that.] Plus, others have told you on previous threads that they find the term offensive, and yet you still use it.

    This is more specific analysis than I put into the original use of the word here, but I might describe the usage here as formal and slightly emotionally distant, rather than terms I would more commonly use, such as what I would intend as a quietly friendly term like “black folks.”

    Your choices were not limited to using the word “folks” or “Negro.” Why not call them “gang members” or even “Blacks who rioted”?

    The word choice DOES mean something because you’re careful to deliberately use a word that you know bothers a large number of people that belong to the group its referring to.

  • Tswana son

    That there are a few bad elements in every race is an irrefutable fact; Hitler – the very idol these new millenium Nazis were commemorating and the mad bunch who happily helped him light up six million Jews – is a great example of certain bad elemeants within the white race.
    I wonder why it is then that whenever a few [edited] run amok it becomes another black mark against the black race? Is there really a need for white America to periodically stand up, point a self-righteous finger and say “Y’see? It’s the [edited] again”. Racial profiling is enough.
    Let us not forget that black people didn’t go to the US by choice. Perhaps instead of blaiming African Americans for rebelling against exile in a country that neither wants or feels it needs them, you should be asking yourselves why your ancestors couldn’t leave well enough alone?

  • ss

    Al, I appreciate you going slow for me a while ago. We’ll get back to how you used the word negro to do a little race baiting in a minute. First I have to correct your uninformed history lesson on the economic policy of the Nazis.
    The people who originally formed the Nazis did see it as a Nationalist Socialist party (as opposed to global Bolshevism). However when Hitler took the reigns of the party he had most of those people, along with the leadership of his Marxist opposition, killed.
    Although the word ‘socialism’ remained in the party name, Hitler, as head of the Nazis, left ownership of companies like Porsche and Krupp in private hands. He had the government borrow money and awarded huge contracts from the state to these companies. This was the arrangement between private industrialists and governments throughout the West at the time and has remained so ever since.
    Hitler’s dictatorial tendencies showed more in his secret police, and the way he educated children.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Tswana [comment 133], I’m not trying to tar all black folks with the behavior of a few- these schmucks in Toledo did that. Plus, this isn’t just one or two people one time. This rioting nonsense springs up repeatedly. And it certainly is race related.

    You cannot expect people not to notice this. There’s so much carrying on about how racist the country supposedly is. We’ve largely eliminated and outlawed institutional racism, but still we’re suspect because of negative private attitudes.

    White people are suspect of taking bad, prejudiced attitudes towards black folks. Some of that is undoubtedly true, and there are lots of little strands of remnant prejudice.

    But when we see just pure unadulterated nonsense like this, it is major negative direct empirical input. No, it’s not all black folk doing this obviously, but it is a recurring thing and it’s not just one or two people one time.

    If several hundred white folks donned hoods and took to the streets of Laurel, it would be noticed and taken as a reflection on our whole community. Bet others of us would be coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

    By rights, the black community should be taking more responsibility. Farrakhan, Jackson, Sharpton, the NAACP- they should all be on this.

    Instead, there’s silence and worse. For example, when Cosby says anything to address the internal cultural nonsense in the black community, he catches hell.

    And of course, any white guy that admits to noticing all this nonsense inevitably becomes the goat. Using a neutral term like “Negro” that some people will arbitrarily decide to be offended by is therefore an offense. If this “bothers a large number of people that belong to the group its referring to” then maybe members of that group should do a better job of taking responsibility for policing their own.

    Instead of made up nonsense about the government ie whitey putting AIDS on the hood like Kanye West carries on with, or crap about Bush not doing enough to prove that he really, really likes black people, maybe some concentration on the real problems of the community are in order.

  • steve

    why have african-americans become so destructive? i.e. L.A., Cincinnati, Detroit, Toledo, NEW ORLEANS?!? I would have figured that they learned something about non-violent protesting from the great Martin Luther King. He made a difference in the 60’s without raising a finger. He made great strides for his people…now these days his community’s moral fiber has deteriorated using violence as an answer.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>why have african-americans become so destructive?<<

    Frustration at years of being held down and made into vote cattle by the Democratic party is a big factor.

    Dave

  • Verified Patriot

    African Americans are the smartest voting contingent in our society. Though not part of this group, polls show a mere 2% support George Bush’s job performance.
    (steve) How hypocritical to choose a violent president that conducts pre-emptive strikes against unproven WMD holding nations and then criticize the showing of similar violence among its citizens. Presidents are our moral compass. Thanks to horny Bill half our teenagers think oral sex isn’t sexual relations.
    Violence is a product of a fuck you president! This president says fuck you to the world. Clinton said fuck you to his female staff.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    I see there VP. I knew this rioting crap was Dubya’s fault. Now I know why.

  • ss

    As opposed to years of being passed over and used for race baiting campaign tactics by the Republicans.
    Which the Chairman of the GOP admitted to less than a year ago. Though he did promise the GOP would stop doing it.

    Just wondering here, Al, Dave, and all others of the right on this thread:
    How many times over the past 20 yrs have you denied the GOP was using AA as a race baiting tactic?
    Having the Chairman of the GOP admit it in public must have been a bit of a slap in the face, huh?

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    SS, never ever having been a Republican, I certainly do not feel any need to justify them, nor have I ever claimed that a political hack wouldn’t use a bit of race-baiting if they think it would help.

    However, no Republican in recent years has race-baited nearly so despicably as those 2000 James Byrd ads sponsored by the NAACP.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Using a neutral term like “Negro” that some people will arbitrarily decide to be offended by is therefore an offense. If this “bothers a large number of people that belong to the group its referring to” then maybe members of that group should do a better job of taking responsibility for policing their own.

    Ah, so you are using it as an epithet. So much for it being a neutral term. If it were, there would be no special conditions required for its use or non-use.

    Also, there is no such thing as “policing their own.” The law abiding Black community bears no responsibility for the gangs or their behavior, just as the white community bears no responsibility for the Nazi group that wanted to march.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    No BHW, “Negro” is not an epithet. But yes, I know some people decide to find the word objectionable, and I just didn’t care.

    Perhaps “policing” was not the best word for it, in that I don’t expect law abiding black folk to literally patrol the streets stopping no-goodniks. Not their job.

    It is more their responsibility, however, to create a cultural climate in their communities that says this stuff is unacceptable, much as it is the responsibility of rural white folks to stigmatize Klanish thinking. They’re obviously not doing it.

    Also, where are these families? Maybe it’s not everyone’s responsibility, but their own people should be doing a hell of a lot more. Mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles ought to be grabbing their idiot offspring involved in such nonsense and, as my hero Bernie Mac would say, busting their heads till the white meat shows.

    Bet money that young Master Jordan would never end up involved in this kind of crap, if for no other reason than fear of having to answer to Uncle Bernie.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    My grandmother’s maiden name is Negro (Italian for Black). Is her NAME offensive???

  • Bennett

    That would be the Moorish influence on Sicily. Be proud AG, the Moors kicked some serious but in Sicily.

  • Jobe

    President Coke is our moral compass?! So that’s why black rioters were searching for WMDs.

  • Ruvy from Jerusalem

    This is to comment 130 by the poster of David Lee’s article, Al Barger.

    “The Nazis were ‘national socialists.’ Nazis are a type of socialist.”

    Check up your history, Al. Adolf Hitler worked for German Army intelligence after WWI. His job was to infiltrate organizations that the army thought could endanger the State. Bear in mind that the army was right wing in Weimar Germany.

    Hitler walked into a meeting of six guys who called themselves the German Workers Party. He signed up as member #7.

    He, the infltrator, took over the bunch and remade it into his own image with his dominant personality.

    What emerged as the Nazis were not socialists, or any other kind of “ists.” The party was nothing other than the personal tool of Hitler in his quest for power. In the beginning, he took support from wherever it would come (except Jews).

    Hitler was into race politics and the occult and this is what he transformed his party into. A good insight into Nazim is gained from the book “The Pink Swastika”.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    The Nazis were in fact socialists, practicing socialist economics. They were organized around Hitler as a cult of personality. That’s not a contradiction.

    The fact that their socialistic system was not focused on “nice” goals does not make them any less socialistic.

  • JR

    The Nazis took over the unions so they deprive the workers of rights and depress wages. That’s no kind of socialism I ever heard of.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    From dictionary.com: Socialism- Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

    Socialism is about whatever goals or values the government sets from the top. Some folks like to delude themselves that socialism is about nicey-nice stuff to help out poor working folk. In your theories it might be, but in practice it is not. The Nazis were a classic example of socialism in practice.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “That would be the Moorish influence on Sicily.”

    This shows your lack of knowledge.

    1) My grandmother is Napoletano, not Sicilian.

    2) The name Negro is an Italian word, not a moorish word.

    3) Does a British man named John Black have Moorish ancestry??? Negro is the Italian word for Black (even in your basic dialect).

    4) Moors are not Negroes, they are North African Muslim Arubs.

    “Be proud AG, the Moors kicked some serious but in Sicily.”

    Yeah, I am proud that the strict Muslim influencial history mixed with the modern day Catholisism has made it so that in Sicily there are no abortion clinics, gays, drug problems or anything else that comes with Liberalism.

  • Bennett

    C’mon AG, we proved that Sicily has ALL the facets of any metropolitan area! Don’t you remember all the links to Sicilian Gay Clubs and hotels that are gay friendly?

    Sicily has no drug abuse? Can you back that up with any documentation?

    Sicily has a zero abortion rate? Can you back that up with any documentation?

    Do you really believe any of what you write here on BC?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Well first of all I just want to go on the record and say that I, Anthony “Abortion” Grande, do not change the subject of this thread.

    I am sure that there has got to be some drug abuse in Sicily but compare it to the rest of the free world. I am sure there has got to be a couple abortions here and there, but that number is way way way way down.

    Now that Gay Hotel you were talking about is in the tourist section of Palermo or Messina or some other urban area. That doesn’t mean that there are gay Sicilians in Sicily.

    I made you look like an ass when you said that my grandmother’s name is Negro because Moors invaded Sicily.

    Just compare statistics of Sicily, a conservative Religious moralistic Region, to let’s say France, a liberal country.

  • Bennett

    No, I let the Moorish thing go as it was just yanking your chain, and since you don’t get the inference, I won’t push it.

    You do make one person look like an ass with regularity, however.

    Particularly with your gross generalizations.

    “…let’s say France, a liberal country.”

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Bennett, I didn’t think you were capable of the yanking of a chain. Every time I do it to you you call me on it. So I called you on yours, culo.

  • KYS

    Interesting that such a “conservative Religious moralistic Region” is the birthplace of the Sicilian Mafia, whicn is considered one of the largest organizations operating in Italy.

    http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/lcn/ioc.htm

    I guess drug trafficking, weapon trafficking and murder are better than abortion and gay marriage.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    KYS, the Mafia doesn’t traffic to or kill native Sicilians. The traffic to American and other European idiots.

    The Mafia only kill their own. It is the rule of Omerta not to harm the non-affliated. Ones who do get dealt with.

    Sicily is the birthplace of the Mafia. Whatever you see in movies or read in fiction books is not real. The Mafia does indeed exist but it does not control the everyday life of Sicilians.

    The La Cosa Nostra of the U.S. brought Italian Americans up in society. If it wasn’t for the Mafia my family and many others would have never come here and became Americans.

  • KYS

    The Mafia doesn’t kill native Sicilians, but they only kill their own? How does that work exactly?

  • KYS

    On May 23, 1992, the Sicilian Mafia struck Italian law enforcement with a vengeance. At approximately 6:00 p.m., Italian Magistrate Giovanni Falcone, his wife, and three police body guards were killed by a massive bomb. Falcone was the Director of Criminal Affairs in Rome. The bomb made a crater 30 feet in diameter in the road Magistrate Falcone’s caravan was traveling. This became known as the Capaci Massacre. Less than two months later, on July 19, 1992, the Mafia struck Falcone’s replacement, Judge Paolo Borsellino in Palermo, Sicily. Borsellino had just been named to replace Falcone. Borsellino and five bodyguards were killed outside the apartment of Borsellino’s mother when a car packed with explosives was detonated by remote control as the judge approached the front door of his mother’s apartment.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Al, I hate to burst your bubble, but the Nazis, whatever else they did, did not practice the concept of taking over the means of production and distribution in Germany. Private banks were left private, private firms were employed to carry out arming the country, (IG Farben, Thyssen, etc. etc.).

    There were a few parts of the economy that had been under state control under imperial Germany – the telegraph and telephone systems for example, and these remained under government control in the Weinar republic and under Hitler’s rule as well. It was imperial German policy to use the state as an engine of economic expansion.

    Don’t confuse a dictator calling the owners of private firms into his office and telling them what to do with outright takeover. There is a difference. That difference is represented by what the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics did. They did take over entirely the means of production and the means of distribution. That was how the Soviet economy worked. Running a private business was akin to a crime in Soviet Russia. Not so in Germany – ever.

    Hitler’s dictatorial planning may look like socialism to you. If the American government was as dictatorial in its planning, you would probably scream ‘socialism!’ – the big bugaboo word in America.

    And you would be just as wrong.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Right Ruvy, the Nazis were socialists, not communists- though in the practice the differences tend to be minimal.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Wow KYS!!! You found one incident in the last 2,500 years the Mafia has been around!!!

    The Sicilian Mafia doesn’t kill or harm the hardworking Sicilians who are not affiliated with the the Mafia. It is the rule of “Omerta”.

    The Mafia has in a couple situations killed Police or Judges. These Mafia members who do this are usually killed.

    Even if a couple officials from Rome are killed because they are Anti-Mafia, life in Sicily still goes on, they still don’t do drugs, they have virtually no abortions and good luck finding a gay Sicilian.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Oh yeah…Have you ever heard of drive-bys in Sicily??? Where men get in cars on shoot innocent people because they happen to live in an enemy neighborhood. It doesn’t happen in Sicily, because the Sicilian towns are protected by the Mafia.

    The day the Mafia gets wiped out in Sicly it will be the day drug dealers start selling drugs to Sicilian Adults and Sicilian children. It will be the day when young punks start forming little gangs where they kill people based on where they are from.

  • RogerMDillion

    Anthony Grande on October 19, 2005 06:36 PM
    “in Sicily there are no…drug problems”

    Anthony Grande on October 19, 2005 07:56 PM
    “I am sure that there has got to be some drug abuse in Sicily”

    It’s always best to go at least two hours before changing your story.

    “If it wasn’t for the Mafia my family and many others would have never come here and became Americans.”

    How dare you. That is a lie and and insult to many hard-working, honest Italians. You are lucky my grandfather doesn’t have internet access. I suggest you retract that statement.

    “Omerta” is the code of silence. Show we wear “Omerta” is what you claim.

    and we don’t get French benefits.

    Vote for Anthony

  • KYS

    Anthony, all I need is ONE instance to prove your claim false. But if you want more, there are plenty out there.

  • RogerMDillion

    KYS, or you could wait long enough and he’ll do it himself.

    Vote for Anthony

  • KYS

    I know, Roger. Isn’t that fun to watch?

  • KYS

    Oh! Another flaw in the AG logic:

    ” It will be the day when young punks start forming little gangs where they kill people based on where they are from.”

    Since the Siciliani “don’t kill their own”, they’re already making this distinction, are they not?

    Anthony needs a reality check. Let’s sign him up for Jerry Springer’s Boot Camp.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Roger, you don’t know the history of your culture. The Mafia brought us here, protected us and helped us rise up into society.

    1900-1940 were hard times for Sicilians in the United States. We were poverty stricken. The mostly Irish corrupted cops showed no respect for us. When we had a problem we went to the Mafia for help because they were the only ones who could help. They kept drugs, muggers, rapists, burglars off our streets.

    Coming to America and getting started was the hardest part. Thank God the Mafia loved their people. They brought us here, they paid our way and when we got here they made sure we got jobs to feed our families.

    During the 1920’s that situation was ecspecially true. The United States passed heavy immigration laws making it virtually impossible for the mass Italian immigration to continue. So the Mafia sent their OWN ships to southern Italy and brought them here themeselves outside of the law. Thousands and thousands came over during this time period in the 1920’s.

    My family came in 1900. They were in Montelepre and had no money. Marranzano had us put on a ship by paying for it himself. And when my Grandparents landed at Ellis Island with not a dime in their pockets the Mafia made sure my Grandfather got a job in a box factory which with in four years he owned. In tern for all this my family had to show respect for the Mafia like the rest of the Italians.

    “Omerta” is the code of silence. Roger

    Omerta is much much more than the code of silence.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    KYS comment 168

    No, I did not say “Siciliani”, I said Mafiosi. The Mafia doesn’t kill fellow Sicilians who are not affiliated with them.

    The presence of the Mafia in Sicily is the reason why Sicilians don’t kill eachother also.