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Reverend Wright at the National Press Club

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Much to the chagrin of Obama supporters, as well as to the scorn of most normal people everywhere, Reverend Wright seems to be on some kind of speaking tour. It must be Christmas for the GOP because this is the gift that keeps on giving.

When asked by a smirking Donna Lienwand, VP of the National Press Club, about his now famous post 9/11 sermon, he tried to explain that he was taken out of context. The "chickens coming home to roost" comment, he said, was quoting the Iraqi Ambassador, as if that made repeating it in a religious fervor following the 9/11 attacks okay. He then said:

this man is insane…to quote the Bible, 'Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever you sow that you shall also reap'. Jesus says do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You cannot do terrorism on other people and expect it never to come back on you. Those are biblical principles, not Jeremiah Wright bombastic principles.

Not quite backing away from his post 9/11 sermon, is it?

Asked whether he was unpatriotic, a question that for some reason, seemed to elicit giggles from the NPC audience, he suggested the accusation was unfair and that those who thought that only listened to sound bytes. He then cited his military service as compared to Vice President Cheney.

Asked, "What is your relationship with Louis Farrakhan. Do you agree with and respect his views, including his most racially divided views?"

His meandering response started by trying to parse the difference between Zionism and Judaism:

Where Louis said twenty years ago that Zionism, not Judaism, is a gutter religion, he was talking about the same thing United Nations resolutions say, the same thing now that President Carter is being vilified for, and Bishop Tutu is being vilified for, and everybody wants to paint me as if I am anti semitic because of what Louis Farrakhan said twenty years ago.

There are multiple layers of offense associated with this comment alone. Zionism is the belief that Jews should return to their ancient homeland of Israel. To suggest that the desire for a Jewish Israel equates to some separate religion, not to mention a "gutter religion," is highly offensive, especially considering the environment during which the creation of the state of Israel occurred.

To say that Zionism is a "gutter religion" is to say that Judaism itself is a gutter religion. While some Jews may have different views regarding the policies of the state of Israel, none would support such inflammatory comments. There is no theoretical argument about the state of Israel anymore. Jews live there now. The fact is that anyone who is against the state of Israel is against the Jews that live there, as well as Jews everywhere. Any anyone who would share or defend the view that this belief, Zionism, is a gutter religion, is anti-semitic. (Notice the period.)

On the one hand, Wright justifies Farrakhan's comments by saying that the U.N., Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu all agree with Farrakhan. But then Wright makes the case that the he (Wright) shouldn't be held accountable for comments Farrakhan made twenty years ago. So are the comments valid or out of date? It can't be both. But let's take a closer look at the justification anyway. Jimmy Carter's recent trip to the Middle East to meet with various terrorist leaders confirms for many a long history of anti-Jewish sentiment. The U.N. has spent more time villifying Israel in the past two years than taking action in Darfur. To hoist Jimmy Carter and the U.N. as proof of some kind of moral compass or justification is laughable.

Wright goes on to say, "Louis and I don't agree on everything…" but then described Farrakhan as "one of the most important voices in the 20th and 21st century, thats what I think about him."

Wright saved his best comments for last:

When Louis Farrakhan speaks, it's like E.F. Hutton speaks, all Black America listens. Whether they agree with him or not, they listen. Now I'm not going to put down Louis Farrakhan any more than Mandela would put down Fidel Castro…" [quoting Mandela from an interview with Ted Koppel when Mandela was asked about the Cuban dictator] "'You don't tell me who my friends are, you don't tell me who my enemies are.' Louis Farrakhan is not my enemy, he did not put me in chains, he did not put me in slavery and he didn't make me this color.

I guess that means that Wright doesn't like the color of his skin? I'm not going to touch that one, but the audience seemed to love it.

Following another question from the ever more smirking Ms. Lienwand (who at this point had an even bigger smirk – I interpreted each smirk as approval), regarding Obama's response to the Wright issue:

Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on the polls. Preachers have a different person to whom they are accountable. I do what pastors do. He does what politicians do.

We've heard him use this "words are meaningless" tactic before. But those of us who have watched Obama's speeches with a critical eye already know this. Wright ended with this gem: "I am not running for office, I am open to being Vice President."

Scary, but the crowd cheered wildly. I was watching all of this on CNN. Anchor Tony Harris closed the segment by saying that "Wright had given a speech yesterday to a crowd of 10,000 and received a standing ovation."

These comments were made TODAY. I feel like that kid from Sixth Sense — I see crazy people, and they're running for president.

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About The Obnoxious American

  • Pablo

    A typical neo con zionist argument that is based on half truths and falsehoods. According to the author’s opinion, if one is to criticize Israel they are in face anti-semitic. An absurd argument on its face, and is almost invariably used by people such as the author’s ilk to defame those that criticize the inhumane treatment of occupied peoples in the middle east. Furthermore there are literally thousands of citizen’s of Israel that are fundementally opposed to Zionism that are in fact jews. So what does that make them Obnoxious?

    I suggest that the author google “Haredi”, “Satmar Hasidim”, and “Neturei Karta”. These are Jews inside Israel that are fundamentally opposed to Zionism.

    On a side note it is interesting to me as a coinspiracy theorist that the Balfour Declaration was sent to Lord Rotshchild, and the following was taken verbatim from the Wikepedia article about it.

    “In his posthumously published 1982 book The Anglo-American Establishment, Georgetown University history professor Carroll Quigley revealed that the Balfour Declaration was actually drafted by Lord Alfred Milner, who was the head of the Rhodes-Milner Round Table Groups that Cecil John Rhodes called for in his will to be “Churches for the extension of the British Empire.” Milner was the trustee of Rhodes’ will, while both Milner and Rhodes were self-described British race-patriots. The recipient of the Balfour Declaration, Lord Rothschild, was also a close friend of Rhodes and was at an earlier time the trustee of Rhodes’ will.

    Quigley wrote:

    “This declaration, which is always known as the Balfour Declaration, should rather be called ‘the Milner Declaration,’ since Milner was the actual draftsman and was apparently, its chief supporter in the War Cabinet. This fact was not made public until 21 July 1936. At that time Ormsby-Gore, speaking for the government in Commons, said, ‘The draft as originally put up by Lord Balfour was not the final draft approved by the War Cabinet. The particular draft assented to by the War Cabinet and afterwards by the Allied Governments and by the United States. . .and finally embodied in the Mandate, happens to have been drafted by Lord Milner. The actual final draft had to be issued in the name of the Foreign Secretary, but the actual draftsman was Lord Milner.”

    Funny how the Milner Group and the Rhodes trust always seem to find their way into these world events. I am sure Dave will slumber along soon and disparage Quigley, as that is his forte, being the shill that he is.

    The Milner Group, Chatham House, the CFR, and the Rhodes Trust all let by the most powerful family of the last 300 years the Rothschilds. Oh yeah thats right I am paranoid and making it up!

    Smirk for YOU Clavos.

  • Pablo

    Oh and by the way I cannot stand Obama, that being said I do like the Rev, he has spunk, and I agree wholeheartedly with his statements. I saw a great video yesterday of Obama praising Brzesnski in the most flattering of terms. Obama is nothing more than the left version of the New World Order as are is his opponents, both Hilary and creepy McCain.

    You think you have a choice but you don’t, they all work for the same family. Why even last week two of the leading Rothschilds came out publicly one for McCain and one for Hilary. Hows them apples?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Obnoxious? quoting the reverend Wrong: “Where Louis [Farrakhan] said twenty years ago that Zionism, not Judaism, is a gutter religion, he was talking about the same thing United Nations resolutions say, the same thing now that President Carter is being villified for, and Bishop Tutu is being villified for, and everybody wants to paint me as if I am anti semitic because of what Louis Farrakhan said twenty years ago.”

    and then continuing…To say that Zionism is a “gutter religion” is to say that Judaism itself is a gutter religion….Any anyone who would share or defend the view that this belief, Zionism, is a gutter religion, is anti-semitic.

    Boychick,

    You want to live in exile, this is what you should expect. You want to wrap yourself in a foreign flag, this is what you should expect. You and every single other Jew living in exile, including the two sons of Ehud Olmert, y”sh. The man that John McCain supports so enthusiastically raised two draft dodgers and a lesbian who condemns the ideology of her own country as murder.

    Wake up!

    A couple of nights ago, while riding from Jerusalem to Ma’alé Levoná, I met a man who had immigrated here from Canada in 2001. His reason for doing so, in his own words was, “I was tired of looking over my shoulder.”

    Sounds paranoid, right? Tell that to Ben Ami Kadish, an old man in a nursing home being hauled in for “espionage” against the United States on behalf of the State of Israel.

    Larry Franklin is sitting in jail because of trumped up charges against two AIPAC employees of espionage also. Jonathan Pollard, who ought to have been released from prison some fifteen years ago, rots in jail and will continue to rot there, while real traitors against the United States walk free.

    You are right that Carter is a Jew-hater, a moral midget who accepted money from the Saudis (including the bin-Laden family) for his “institute” and is now spouting out their hatred for them, wrapping himself in an American flag coated in peanut oil. But when Ambassador Gillerman of Israel called Carter for what he is, who should come riding to the old peanut farmer’s rescue but the AMERICAN State Department?

    Dummy!! (or is it Dhimmi!!) Can’t you smell the coffee? Who do you think is being basted for the next round of condemnation? YOU ARE!! You and all the other American Jews who do not denounce Israel. If the Bush State Department rushes to defend a Jew-hater like Carter, do you think a McCain State Department will do any less?

    At least with Barack Hussein Obama you can see the hatred of Jews and of Israel shining in the eyes and off the whites or the teeth of all those who are close to him. You can see the truth. With McCain, all you see are glad-handing lies that get undercut with arrests and intimidation. If you persist in feeding yourself with the delusion that Jews are “safe” in their American exile, the truth, when it hits your butt, is going to be ugly and painful indeed. At least here, in the mountains of Samaria, you can get a glimmer of the truth as it faces you, presenting both danger and opportunity.

    For you, boychick. A classic restatement of your article.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    What the hell, Obnoxious?, let’s throw in this little tidbit for you to think about.

    “Zionism” was a term invented by English theologians some three centuries ago to describe the concept in the Bible that Jews desired to/should/would return to Israel. It was never used in JEWISH writings on the subject until Tuvia (Theodore) Herzl came along. Now, Pablo (Paul) takes the point of view that there should be no Israel, using (or misusing) the views of the Satmar Hassidim, the Neturei Karta (who run to Ahmadinejad to kiss his butt beard), and the Hareidim, who warned for a long time about the dangers of supporting the State. When I watched Jewish soldiers and police kicking Jews out of their homes in Gush Qatif three years ago, I realized the truth of the warnings of the Hareidim.

    The State, having accomplished its goal of putting an anti-Torah régime in power, is now swallowing its own child, systematically destroying the country at the orders of its masters in Washington.

    But all this does not change the fact that “Zionism”, was a both a colonial project of the British, which is what Paul emphasizes above, and a movement to bring home our people in preparation for Redemption – a fact which secular Jews like you do their best to ignore.

    This is a classical Kabbalistic style event – the Light of Redemption coming from an evil Husk of Darkness.

    Obnoxious?, I care little for what Paul believes, even though he and I share a number of perspectives on the world and how it works. Where it comes to our resettlement home, I look at the Light of Redemption, while he sees only the evil Husk of colonialism. By attempting to wrap yourself in a foreign flag, you and most North American Jews will blind yourselves to this reality – both the duality of the nature of rise of the Jewish entity in the Land, which reflects the Jewish messianic concept of Good arising from Evil and the more existential and teleological reality that the Zionist régime, having accomplished its purpose, is now destroying the State by its actions.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Obnoxious, let’s skip for a second the fact that you set this piece up as explaining why people would be crazy to vote for Obama, yet barely mentioned his name let alone demonstrated he shares even one of the Reverend’s ideas.

    Let’s skip all that and go right to the end of your piece.

    Wright ended with this gem:

    “I am not running for office, I am open to being Vice President”

    Scary, but the crowd cheered wildly.

    The crowd LAUGHED. Because it was a joke, Obnoxious. Which, if you saw the video, you are well aware of. Yet your implication here is that you thought he was seriously suggesting himself as a vice presidential candidate.

    Assuming you intended that implication, it was quite dishonest of you.

    Fortunately, even if Obama did get elected President, and even if WRIGHT got the Veep, you’d support them, right? Because you “refuse to be ashamed of your country and its actions,” apparently regardless of what they may be?

  • troll

    Ruvy – you should not be trusted with code…neither htmlical nor biblical

  • Clavos

    Fortunately, even if Obama did get elected President, and even if WRIGHT got the Veep, you’d support them, right? Because you “refuse to be ashamed of your country and its actions,” apparently regardless of what they may be?

    i.e., “My country, right or wrong.”

    That’s why I always reserve the right to be ashamed of whatever country I’m claiming as “mine” this week…

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    troll, so true!

  • troll

    The fact is that anyone who is against the state of Israel is against the Jews that live there, as well as Jews everywhere. Any anyone who would share or defend the view that this belief, Zionism, is a gutter religion, is anti-semitic. (Notice the period).

    ‘noxious – your absolutist ‘argument’ supports antisemitism…..imo

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    All religions are gutter religions as they are based on lies, albeit possibly well intentioned lies. Religion is the enemy of humanity.

  • Clavos

    Religion is the enemy of humanity.

    Humanity is the enemy of humanity.

    Understandably.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Thanks for the stern talking to and explanations. I expected to get some crap for saying that people who are anti zion are anti Jew. I think you missed a crucial statement that I made in this piece and perhaps I should have used bold to make sure this was not missed:

    “There is no theoretical argument about the state of Israel anymore. Jews live there now.”

    Ruvy, Pablo, et al, this is the point. You are having a debate of the last 70 years. Israel exists now. If people want to debate ancient history they are welcome to it, but that’s what it is.

    Israel exists today. To try and temper what Farrakhan said as being merely anti zionist, is an excersize in the ultimate parse. Sorry, but there is no zionism anymore, but there are Jews living in a state that is their ancient homeland, one that the powers that be decided to give to them.

    Each time you allow there to be a debate on this issue, there is a debate on this issue. But the debate is over. It is what it is. And the fact remains that to chastise zionism is to chastize Jews, especially out of the mouths of these people. Are any of you really going to buy that Farrakhan actually likes the Jews but just hates the effort to create Israel? That’s laughable.

    Mr. West,

    I did see the video. In real time. Had you read the article you would have known this (my repeated references to Lienwand’s smirking to wit). Some of the audience was laughing, some were cheering. The tone of the crowd was definitely supportive of Wright.

    If you want to try and minimize the sentiment that was going on at the NPC of all places, that’s your right. I think it’s worth noting if the National Press Club applauds a man who said “G-d **** America” 5 days after 9/11. I think it’s notable if they giggled when he was asked about his patriotism (in his case especially, it’s no laughing matter).

    I especially think this is notable in terms of Obama, who claimed “Not to be in church that day” because it’s clear that anytime Reverend Wright speaks, his comments are of the unsavory nature. These comments were made just YESTERDAY, and yet the Democratic frontrunner for the highest office in the land hasn’t seen fit to actually renounce this man, only the comments he made on that tape.

    I am starting to really believe that Obama is truly change we can believe in. Not necessarily change we want however.

  • Lee Richards

    Michael is correct: there’s nothing in this piece that supports the supposed topic of it.

    I think you need to be only mildly deluded to vote for Obama, but close to certifiable to really want either of the other two candidates.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “Michael is correct: there’s nothing in this piece that supports the supposed topic of it.”

    The title is “Reverend Wright at the National Press Club.” Not sure what you percieved as the “supposed topic” but this piece delivers everything you’d expect given it’s title.

    Is it that I am drawing conclusions about Obama because of this? Well so is the rest of the country. And rightfully so, given Obama’s refusal to actually deal with this issue head on. No, Obama’s race speech wasn’t it. It was a well delivered speech, and it drove conversations about race (although, as Dan Miller’s recent article points out, the discussion on race is a bit remedial in 2008). Obama has never really explained his association to Wright in terms that are acceptable to the majority of Americans, hence why this keeps coming up.

  • zingzing

    i for one, don’t give a damn about rev. wright. nor do i really care about obama any more. i don’t even want to think about them together (or in the same thought). i’m sick to death of this election and everyone involved. shit, just by being relatively silent, mccain is starting to look good. not that i’d vote for him, but he’s the one least on my nerves right now.

    as for what rev. wright has to say… i wouldn’t, if i were him, put it in the ways he has put it… that being said, the people who plotted and executed 9/11 were certainly pushed to do it by something. maybe there’s some delusional “america made us what we are (we had nothing to do with it)” junk going on, but it certainly was our actions/tomfoolery in the middle east that made them look to us as a target.

    we mucked about in a place we didn’t belong, and 9/11 is what we got. there may not be a completely direct correlation between the two, but they are related. so, if not “god damn america,” something damned america, or a part therein, that day.

  • Cindy D

    You’d make a great Nazi Obnoxious.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Gotta like that…someone telling a jew he’d make a great nazi…can’t wait for that rebuttal!!!

  • Clavos

    There’s no such thing as a great Nazi; there aren’t even any mediocre ones.

    They’re somewhere below toxic bacteria on the evolutionary scale, along with Islamic Jihadists and patriots of any persuasion.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    I think you missed that notice above the posting form that says personal attacks are NOT allowed.

    That said, calling anyone a Nazi, other than actual Nazi’s who murdered people in concentration camps, is an insult not just to me but to the memory of all those who died at their hands. You should be ashamed of yourself. I’m sure you won’t be given the casuality that you threw that term around. I’m guessing you probably call a number of people Nazi’s even though they’d never try and murder entire sects of humans. For shame.

  • troll

    so…whose going to point out that Cindy didn’t actually call ‘noxious a nazi but only suggested that he’d fit right in by which what she meant we can only imagine – ?

  • Cindy D

    OA-

    I didn’t call you a Nazi. I wasn’t attacking you either. Simply pointing out something about my perception of you, doesn’t make what I said an attack. I was entirely serious.

    What I said has to do with the brand of “patriotism” you seem to practice. The worst flavor–blind patriotism. You were accidentally born an American. My understanding of the way you think makes me believe that if you were accidentally born in Germany during Hitler’s rule, you would be a great Nazi. Defending your country whilst disparaging any critical examination of what it actually does.

    Note to Clavos: Let’s not be silly. Your understanding of English will allow you to understand my meaning of “great” in the sense that I used it. Lest you argue that someone might think the “Great Fire of London” was a good fire.

    But this is all related to my thinking about patriotism as a whole. Is there a patriotism that would allow love of one’s country without crossing over into blind support of one’s government?

    Does patriotism necessarily hold that those within your nation are somehow more relevant or better than those outside? Can this possible be a “truth?”

    The problem with patriotism, as I see it practiced by those who claim to be patriotic, is that it seems to require turning off one’s critical thinking faculty. If we can’t think critically about something, ipso facto, we can’t think realistically about it–we are thinking in the realm of fantasy.

    If “we are the best” by patriotic definition–we will fail (as we do) to see what might be better about others. If patriotism requires we love our nation blindly, then patriotism requires we take a step outside reality and base our decisions and opinions on fantasy. How can that be good?

    If we are never wrong (above criticism), then we are not wrong no matter how heinous our acts. That is why blind patriots would make great Nazis.

    The best type of government would be designed by people who were very critical of their government.

    In this way, I think “patriotism,” as it is widely practiced by “obnoxious” and “ugly” Americans, is destructive and one of the main things that keeps us mediocre.

  • Cindy D

    hehe, I will troll :)

  • The Obnoxious American

    You’re right, she didn’t call me a Nazi, but she suggested that I had all of the personality traits, that i was Nazi-like. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that it was insulting to me and anyone who might have been impacted by real Nazis.

    Real Nazi’s engaged in genocide, tried to kill Jews, Blacks, Gays, etc. I just happen to think Obama’s pastor is an idiot, and that Obama should have done a better job of disavowing his pastor.

    When you equate me with a Nazi, you lower the meaning of the word Nazi. All of a sudden a Nazi is just a guy with strong feelings. Let’s never forget what the Nazi’s did. Let’s not trivialize the crimes against humanity by Nazi’s by suggesting someone with a strong (or Republican) viewpoint is an equivalent.

  • bliffle

    Wasting time discussing Wright helps to assure that you won’t address the real issues of this election. So once again you will vote out of ignorance and based on prejudices and whims. And meanwhile people who DO want the candidates to address issues and develop policy will be frustrated by this smookescreen. Bah.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I have a question…whatever happened to critisize in private…praise in public…isn’t that what good leaders do? That’s the way I was taught…you have a problem with someone or something, you take it to the side and handle it…

    Bitching about your country, or blaming your country and it’s leaders for everything that’s wrong with the world is just as bad as blindly following…

    Making blanket statements about 9/11 being our fault or AIDS being developed by your country to kill it’s people is way over the line and not productive…to say the least and unpatriotic as well.

    And one last thing…to say…you’d make a great asshole is just as bad as saying…you’re an asshole. Just to prove my point, I’m gonna say it at tomorrow mornings meeting here at work, just to prove a point…hope I get fired, I’d hate to think my office might be a terrorist target or something.

  • Cindy D

    OA,

    Real Nazi’s were first children (just human ones, not inherently evil ones) who were indoctrinated with blind patriotism.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox,

    Let me get this in before Clavos* does…

    You don’t need an apostrophe in ‘Nazis’. You were using the word in its plural, not its possessive, form.

    * Our resident style ‘Nazi’… 😉

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    bliffle – sorry, but the people you associate with is an issue. It goes to a persons critical thinking and what kind of choices he or she makes in life and what kind of choices he or she will make in the whitehouse as well.

    And sitting in the same church for twenty years listening to that mans bullshit is very relevant to a lot of people, maybe not to you, but it is to many others.

    People ask, what do you really believe…I mean, you sat and listened to that crap all that time and did nothing about it…never spoke up…never got up, you must believe it!

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    So just that we are all clear on what’s going on in your mind, you suggest that you are right in saying that “[I’d] be a great Nazi” by further insulting me by suggesting I have blind patriotism. Sorry but that’s a pretty weak justification.

    You are in the minority on this point. Most American’s don’t accept what Reverend Wright said following 9/11, nor do they accept what he said yesterday at NPC. And Obama is paying the price.

    Further, my patriotism is hardly blind. Especially when you compare my views (which support the long and successful history of capitalism in this country) to that of the Obamabots who support this candidate who has virtually no experience and whose whole claim to judgement was that he voted against the Iraq war. Sorry but by that measure, it’s those people who would make great factions (not Nazis).

    Feel free to type another page worth of justification, but your post stunk and you should be ashamed.

  • Cindy D

    cancel my apostrophe too Dr D.

  • Cindy D

    I can only hope that I am in the minority on EVERY point OA. When I am not, I hope to continually question myself as to what has gone wrong in my thinking.

  • Cindy D

    Andy,

    Please keep your criticism private.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Only of you Cindy!

  • The Obnoxious American

    “Wasting time discussing Wright helps to assure that you won’t address the real issues of this election. So once again you will vote out of ignorance and based on prejudices and whims. And meanwhile people who DO want the candidates to address issues and develop policy will be frustrated by this smookescreen. Bah.”

    Bliffle,

    You are aware that I’ve written several articles that dissect the Democratic candidates from a purely policy point of view. In case you missed them:

    Democrats: I just don’t understand

    The Official Obama Hit Piece

    Dishonest Dems

    I am very familiar with the policies that Obama is running on, and I’ve devoted the above articles to refuting those policies. Anyone who reads my columns is well versed on policy issues.

    This may very well be the first post dedicated to non-policy stuff. That said, I am in full agreement with Andy Marsh, who you associate yourself with IS important, especially in a candidate with so little else to define his history or views.

    Cindy,

    As a Republican in New York City, I am familiar with being in the minority. That said, the minority you seem to want to be associated with isn’t one you should be proud of. It’s sad, I have lost much respect for you as someone who discusses politics with me, and I am positive I am not the only one who has a different view of you given your comments in this thread.

    To the rest who are siezing upon my misplaced apostraphe, enjoy that, but it won’t change the point, it won’t make Rev Wright right, and it won’t make Obama president.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Andy,

    sitting in the same church for twenty years listening to that mans bullshit

    I very much doubt that Wright’s sermon every freaking Sunday for twenty years was a tirade against (white) America. You know perfectly well that those words were cherry-picked out of millions because it was believed they could be used against Obama.

    If you believe him, Obama wasn’t even there the day Wright made the speech everyone has a firecracker up their asses about.

    Having seen charismatic Black preachers in action, I suspect that in reality most of the man’s homilies were geared, as per his job, towards scaring the immortal bejeezus out of his parishioners.

    The logical gymnastics Obama’s opponents have been using to try and paint his friendship with Wright as some kind of fatal character flaw would be comical if they weren’t so indicative of the sad sick way American politics seems to work these days.

  • Clavos

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

    Samuel Johnson, 1775

    Quoted for Truth.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    cancel my apostrophe too Dr D.

    You only did it once. I singled out Obnox because he was a repeat offender!

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    As usual, a sober and smart recount of the situation. That said, I think it’s clear, given Wright’s recent speaking tour, that he probably says what he said in that famous post 9/11 sermon fairly often. After all, it didn’t take that much to get him to repeat it yesterday. Was some of it meaningless bravado, for sure. Does Obama being a part of his church mean Obama agrees? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Is American politics sick at the core because of it, not at all.

    This is the vetting process. I think most Americans were willing to forgive Obama for Rev Wright, especially after his “race” speech. But Obama’s continued parsing of whether he supports the man or his comments, combined with his lack of experience and record, make this information all the more telling. It says a lot to the people that he hasn’t been more outspoken against these words, as opposed to explaining he’s done instead. It makes him look weak, it makes Hillary look more credible (!).

    People can attack me all they want, call me names or make fun of my typos (we all make them), but it won’t change the basic truths about this article, nor the fact that this situation is impacting Obama’s electability with his abetting.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox, of course he repeated some of it yesterday. He’s been all over the news for that speech and he was asked about it. Why wouldn’t it come up? It’d be like landing an interview with the ghost of Oppenheimer and not talking about the atom bomb.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy

    “Real Nazi’s were first children (just human ones, not inherently evil ones) who were indoctrinated with blind patriotism.”

    I had to respond to this drivel.

    Sorry, but there were plenty of Germans who managed to rise above the indoctrination and actually saved the Jews in their midst. Not sure what kind of moral relativism you are engaging in, but unless you are suggesting that grown men have no responsibility for their own moral compass, your point is entirely meaningless. Everyone is first a child. So what? When they grow up, it’s up to them to decide what’s right or wrong. “Just following orders” isn’t ever an excuse.

    If I were you, I’d hang up the keyboard.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc, but thats the point. He still feels this way. And Obama still has not refuted the man (not just his comments).

    If this were a white candidate, well let me stop right there, we all know what happened to Trent Lott when he toasted Strom Thurmond. Aside from being on the wrong side of the politically correct fence, what’s the difference really?

  • Ruvy

    Cindy,

    There is a great deal you do not understand about either patriotism or about Nazis. Saying that they were born as children and indoctrinated to be Nazis does not say a whole lot. Everybody was born and was socialized into one society or another.

    Asserting that someone’s nationality is a mere accident of birth is not an accurate assertion. You do not know the Will of G-d, and you are not G-d that you can make an assertion that all births in the universe are accidental occurrences.

    Patriotism is not blindly following any government or nation. It is in the belief in the fundamental values of that nation, whatever they happen to be. In my own country, those values are undergoing a major shift. But what those values are is not yet determined. The issue of what those values will be will determine who is a patriot here in Israel.

    The real Nazis were racists who honestly believed that Jews had to be exterminated for the good of all Mankind, as they defined Mankind. And they followed their beliefs. The murder of Jews was an issue that stood at the same level of importance as defending the Fatherland, and it was to be followed with the same determination.

    Calling anyone a Nazi (or saying that that would make a great Nazi) implies that they have murderous personalities, and a satanic desire to kill off “inferior” races of people.

    Think carefully on your words, Cindy, for you (actually, all of us) are judged on them.

  • Cindy D

    “Sorry, but there were plenty of Germans who managed to rise above the indoctrination…”

    Of course there were, and that is what is good about subjecting one’s government to criticism. This supports what I am saying. Can you see that?

    Are you grasping the point I am making about ANY form of uncritical patriotism? You are sort of making comments around my point perhaps because you cannot allow your mind to entertain even the possibility that what happened in Nazi Germany might have been in part a result of an unquestioning patriotism (like some Americans practice).

    What I am saying is, it scares me to see people uncritical of their government. It’s destructive as far as I can see. I can’t see it leading to anything worthwhile, but, I can see it leading to the acceptance of horrendous things.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “What I am saying is, it scares me to see people uncritical of their government. It’s destructive as far as I can see. I can’t see it leading to anything worthwhile, but, I can see it leading to the acceptance of horrendous things.”

    Great, you should write an article all about that. Not sure why you suggested I’d be a great Nazi, or your urge to post that here, in an article that has nothing to do with blind patriotism, by an author who isn’t a blind patriot, about a subject that doesn’t even relate to patriotism.

    Moreover:

    “Of course there were, and that is what is good about subjecting one’s government to criticism. This supports what I am saying. Can you see that?”

    What you were saying was that I’d make a great Nazi. Nope, still not SEEING it.

    “Are you grasping the point I am making about ANY form of uncritical patriotism? You are sort of making comments around my point perhaps because you cannot allow your mind to entertain even the possibility that what happened in Nazi Germany might have been in part a result of an unquestioning patriotism (like some Americans practice).”

    Now that you are making that point, sure I see it, but I still don’t see what that has to do with the article I wrote. Unless you are STILL suggesting that I am a blind patriot, which would be ignorant. Some may disagree with my points, but to suggest

  • The Obnoxious American

    that they represent some blind patriotism is to indicate a lack of familiarity with my arguments.

  • zingzing

    “Asserting that someone’s nationality is a mere accident of birth is not an accurate assertion. You do not know the Will of G-d, and you are not G-d that you can make an assertion that all births in the universe are accidental occurrences.”

    so god chose you as an american and you decided that god was wrong, so you moved to israel?

  • http://lawconinsurance.blogspot.com/ Lawyer Consolidation Insurance

    Reverend Wright Advocates Separate but Equal at NAACP Dinner to Thunderous Applause – “Different is NOT Deficient”

    “A statute which implies merely a legal distinction between the white and colored races-a distinction which is founded in the color of the two races, and which must always exist so long as white men are distinguished from the other race by color-has no tendency to destroy the legal equality of the two races” – the Plessy v. Ferguson majority opinion enshrined in law that different is not deficient.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Perhaps God intended for Ruvy to be born in the US and then move to Israel. Either way, it doesn’t take away from the very good point he made in response to Cindy’s comments.

    It doesn’t excuse Cindy’s way out of line comments about me, her trivializing of what it means to be a Nazi, nor the amount of backpeddling she’s done since then to avoid admitting that her comments were shameful, and in bad taste. In fact, she’s probably backpeddled about a full 26.2 miles by now in trying to explain her transgressions. She calls it being in the minority or trying to help me see something that she never said until pressed. I call it prejudice.

  • The Obnoxious American

    LCI,

    If this hasn’t become the closest Left Wing allegory to the Trent Lott/Strom Thurmon affair, I don’t know what is. It’s not quite being covered in the same way.

    With Trent Lott, the media basically exposed this to prove that Trent was racist by association (and perhaps he was).

    In this case, the media is outlining this to ensure that the voting public is prepared for this information come election day, or so that the super delegates can make an informed decision. No one in the media is suggesting that Obama feels this way, and in fact many journalists are making the case for Obama that he shouldn’t be judged by his associations (CNN’s top political staff to wit).

    It’s tough having a long memory.

  • zingzing

    so cindy is now prejudiced (against who?) because she said that your “blind patriotism” (which stems from the “I refuse to be ashamed of my country or its actions” part of your bio) stinks of the same reasoning that german citizens used?

    as for ruvy’s point about god and nationality and “accurate assertions,” one is taking a mighty big step to say that god plants new human births inside political lines. whatever.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox,

    Lott has a history of making racially insensitive and/or downright offensive comments. He got away with it for years and became Senate Majority Leader in spite of it.

    But… marry his unfortunate foot-in-mouth habit to a very public sucking-up to Strom ‘Lookin’ Good in a Hood’ Thurmond, and you have a recipe for the Republican bigwigs to finally decide that enough was enough and yank the rug from under his pale white hairy legs.

    Does Obama have a history of cosying up to black supremacists? I hardly think so.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing, I no longer understand what you are talking about. My bio about not being ashamed of my country does not equal blind patriotism. Quite the opposite, I think those Americans who are ashamed of this country are in fact self hating.

    I may disagree with certain platforms or policies of this government. But I would never hoist our foreign policy responsibilities onto the dysfunctional UN – a view that many on the left share, and indeed a major part of Obama’s (and Kerry’s) platform.

    That said, it has NOTHING to do with the article. I find it curious that you are so quick to defend Cindy’s poorly chosen words.

    Doc:

    “Does Obama have a history of cosying up to black supremacists? I hardly think so.”

    Well I guess that’s the question now isn’t it. 20 years of attending a church whose pastor is calling for seperate but equal certainly sounds like a history of cozying up to something. If not black supremist, certainly seperatist. Not what I’d expect from the preacher of the candidate who claims to want to heal the racial divide (that incidentally doesn’t exist so much anymore except perhaps in the same extremes that give birth to the Cindy D’s of the world).

  • zingzing

    “My bio about not being ashamed of my country does not equal blind patriotism.”

    ahh, but by “refusing?” no matter what?

    “I think those Americans who are ashamed of this country are in fact self hating.”

    there are things that this country does that should ashame you. we aren’t any angels. we’re money-grubbing, war-mongering, religion-crazed, hypocritical and somewhat backward. but that’s not everything that we are. i’m not ashamed of this country, but some of its actions ARE pretty damn shameful. i want them to change, so i can believe that everything this country does is done with the understanding that “america” only exists in the world, and that our first priority should be to all of humanity, not to some political designation.

    “I would never hoist our foreign policy responsibilities onto the dysfunctional UN”

    and this unilateral gung-ho bullshit is really working in our favor?

    “I find it curious that you are so quick to defend Cindy’s poorly chosen words.”

    they’re just words. and i didn’t defend her words so much as condemn yours (as exactly the same thing you are complaining about, really).

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    20 years of attending a church whose pastor is calling for seperate but equal certainly sounds like a history of cozying up to something. If not black supremist, certainly seperatist.

    Nah.

    Wanting that to be true don’t make it so.

    the racial divide (that incidentally doesn’t exist so much anymore except perhaps in the same extremes that give birth to the Cindy D’s of the world)

    The racial divide exists, Obnox – albeit for the most part no longer in the same hateful terms it used to. But it’s still there.

    For instance: how many Black friends do you have? Close ones? How many White friends do you have? Close ones?

    In the lunch room at your workplace, who sits with whom?

    Can you identify several distinctly ‘ethnic’ neighborhoods in the city where you live?

    That kind of thing.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    I guess when I run for president, they’ll look at my super liberal best friend and say, “Well, if he tolerated her extremist views for over 20 years, and he isn’t disowning her as a best friend, then that’s just as bad as agreeing with her or saying it in a speech.”

    Granted, this is actually one of many reasons I am unelectable. But still.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I agree that you shouldn’t run for President, Suss. You tend to cut through bullshit far too easily.

    But you’d make a wonderful debate moderator. Move aside, Mr Lehrer.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    First, every country has things that they should be ashamed of. Every country should change for the better. But it’s when you take it to the point of saying things like this:

    “I want them to change, so i can believe that everything this country does is done with the understanding that “america” only exists in the world, and that our first priority should be to all of humanity, not to some political designation. ”

    it belies a blind anti-patriotism that exists on the left.

    Our government should be focused on what’s best for this country. Not humanity OR some political designation, just what’s in our best interest. And if in the course of looking out for ourselves, we can also make the world a better place, then great. And that’s precisely what’s happened. The creation of the state of Israel for example WAS an attempt to make the world better. Our alliances with those who are now our enemies (famous pic of rummy with saddam) was borne out of the desire to make the world better.

    Problem with the left is that they assume Bush is evil, the GOP is evil, I am a Nazi, etc. This is where Cindy’s comments came from and why they are so offensive. Why your comments are nonsensical and you are trying (with little effect) to turn this argument around on me.

    It’s this blind factioning that the left routinely engages in that makes claims by the likes of Obama, the single most liberal senator, to be “post partisan” whatever that means, so laughable. Especially when for the life of me, I can’t understand what post partisan means. Non-partisan perhaps? or just a dictatorship?

    Unilateral gung ho? How about just doing what’s in our best interest? That works.

  • Baronius

    Obnox – I’m sure you could be great at anything if you applied yourself.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    “Wanting that to be true don’t make it so.”

    Again, you are assinging too much of this onto me. I don’t want it to be true. In feb I was wishing that this guy was a Republican. But this situation, and moreover the way Obama has handled it, has raised questions in my mind as well as in the minds of many.

    If we want to turn this article, which is about Wrights comments at the NPC into a debate over me (taking tidbits from my bio even and using them to argue the issue no less), feel free, but that would be the biggest strawman yet on BC.

  • zingzing

    “it belies a blind anti-patriotism that exists on the left.”

    patriotism is nothing but a nice word for nationalism, which is a dangerous, dangerous thing. witness the 20th century for your proof.

    “Our government should be focused on what’s best for this country. Not humanity OR some political designation, just what’s in our best interest.”

    the world is going to run into problems that way.

    “The creation of the state of Israel for example WAS an attempt to make the world better.”

    exactly. didn’t work out, eh?

    “Why your comments are nonsensical and you are trying (with little effect) to turn this argument around on me.”

    my comments are nonsensical? YOU tried to make her out to be insensitive towards the jews, which is just a weak argument. in effect, you tried to make her out to be a nazi. invoking the nazis is foolish, i’ll give you that.

    “It’s this blind factioning that the left routinely engages in that makes claims by the likes of Obama, the single most liberal senator, to be “post partisan” whatever that means, so laughable.”

    see bush’s campaign. every presidential candidate tries this junk. it never works, but it tricks some people into voting for them.

    “Unilateral gung ho? How about just doing what’s in our best interest? That works.”

    no it doesn’t! our “best interest” (or whatever the government decides that is) is what lead us to the “unilateral gung-ho” nonsense. a majority of the rest of the world was saying “don’t go in there, it’s just going to make things worse for all of us,” and they were right.

  • zingzing

    “but that would be the biggest strawman yet on BC.”

    how long have you been here? we’ve seen mighty big strawmen around here.

  • Cindy D

    “…the racial divide (that incidentally doesn’t exist so much anymore…”

    Have a look around Tim Wise’s site. Particularly, an article, in the essays section, titled:

    Of National Lies and Racial Amnesia:
    Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama, and the Audacity of Truth

    Here are some videos where Tim Wise presents some fairly well-evidenced challenges to the status quo concerning racism in America. The first one is a highlight that lasts only 5 minutes.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    I never tried to make Cindy out to be a Nazi. I called her out for using words that even you agree were insensitive. See, as a Jew, when I hear people call George Bush a Nazi, or when they call someone with even less of a moral stain a Nazi, they cheapen the meaning of the word. In Cindy’s world, if you have strong views, you are Nazi like. Sorry, but Ruvy got the description of a Nazi correctly, a murderous person, someone willing to wipe out an entire race. I know you probably hate Bush given your comments, but he isn’t a Nazi. I am sure as hell not a Nazi in any way shape and form.

    It’s clear that I have to explain all of this to you. It’s clear that you are doing your best to try and argue on behalf of Cindy’s terribly chosen and insensitive words. You can continue that defense but it is unbecoming.

    In response to your other views, we don’t elect our government to make the world better. We elect them to RUN THIS COUNTRY. It’s funny because you cling to the idea that the US’s goal should be to improve the world, but in the same post, you make fun of the results of these attempts (talk about nonsensical):

    “the world is going to run into problems that way.

    “The creation of the state of Israel for example WAS an attempt to make the world better.”

    exactly. didn’t work out, eh?”

    So which is it, should we try and help the world, or should we only help the world when it can’t be later poked at by navel gazing liberals with 20/20 hindsight?

    “see bush’s campaign. every presidential candidate tries this junk. it never works, but it tricks some people into voting for them. ”

    Give me a break. Being above partisanship is the very centerpiece of Obama’s campaign. Bush may have suggested that he would work across the aisle, and I dare say that he has, more than Obama has. But Obama’s big selling point for indies and even (gasp) some republicans has been to suggest that he will rise above it all. And it’s simply not true.

    “no it doesn’t! our “best interest” (or whatever the government decides that is) is what lead us to the “unilateral gung-ho” nonsense. a majority of the rest of the world was saying “don’t go in there, it’s just going to make things worse for all of us,” and they were right.”

    Obviously you are talking about the decision to go into Iraq. Sure, the UN said, don’t do it. They were also taking money from Saddam via the Oil for Food scandal. Same UN that created an impossible to rely upon inspections regime. Rather than tell us not to follow our own foreign policy, the UN could have ensured that we didnt go to war with Saddam by removing greed and corruption from it’s programs. But it didn’t.

    I am not saying that the War in Iraq was managed well, it wasn’t. But to sit there and complain that we went into Iraq out of some gung ho unilateralism is ignoring the realities at the time and playing into the classic liberal argument that Bush is evil, that the GOP is evil, that Cheney is Darth Vader, etc. It’s all nonsense.

    “how long have you been here? we’ve seen mighty big strawmen around here. ”

    Not surprising with guys like you running around here.

  • Cindy D

    actually this was right on target:

    “…(which stems from the “I refuse to be ashamed of my country or its actions” part of your bio)…”

    your bio. very simple. you said it yourself.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    I never said racism doesn’t exist, it does and always will (your Nazi comments to wit). What no longer exists is a real racial divide.

    If it did still exist, we’d never be seriously talking about Obama as a candidate for president. But we are. Because for the majority of Americans, race doesn’t matter nearly as much as it did a mere 30 years ago.

    I think part of the reason why the Rev Wright thing is so bad for Obama is because most Americans are not racist. They don’t want some candidate preaching to them about healing a divide that to them no longer exists. It turns Obama into the “black” candidate, as opposed to a presidential candidate.

    I have a feeling that most voters, who like me are probably proud at how far this country has come in terms of race relations, will find the conversation about a divide that doesn’t, that can’t exist in this day and age, rather pedantic. I certainly feel this way.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    “your bio. very simple. you said it yourself.”

    Great, glad that zing was able to explain your idiotic comments. Thanks for clarifying. And as I said, it is a major strawman. Now that we’ve spent countless posts discussing your foolish and insensitive name calling, care to actually argue the central point behind the article?

  • Cindy D

    and you dispute the evidence i presented via tim wise exactly how? (or you just disregard it, what i presume).

  • Cindy D

    Here’s Tim Wise on white privilege (it’s 9 whole minutes).

  • The Obnoxious American

    did you read my post? There is a difference between an individual’s racism or prejudice (such as you suggesting I’d be a good nazi) and my systematically being denied the same rights as you because I am jewish. Get the difference?

    Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black. But no longer is there a divide in this country. What we have now is the result of a divide that at least systemically no longer exists. It will of course take many years for the effects of the divide to normalize.

    I agree that when I was growing up, being white gave you a privledge. I can tell you that when I was a youth on the city streets, the cops tended to be a lot kinder to this white boy than to many of my African American friends.

    In this day and age, many cops in NYC are black. Are we suggesting that they are continuing the systemic oppression of blacks? Let’s be serious. And this is just one example. Same could be said for corporate opportunities, educational opportunities, etc. It’s all there for any underprivledged person, white or black, should they pursue it.

    I’m sure there are still klansmen somewhere out there (perhaps in some dark corners of NYC), but the difference these days is that they’ve been forced out of the mainstream. It is a crime to be racist now, and you will get prosecuted. So talking about a divide in 2008 is ignoring the realities of how far we’ve come, and is quite the opposite of the audacity of hope.

  • Cindy D

    “Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black.”

    I can hardly believe my ears. So, POOR BLACK PEOPLE IN URBAN CENTERS are arrested and jailed more often than white people, EVEN THOUGH WHITE PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE CRIME and you are also saying:

    “But no longer is there a divide in this country. What we have now is the result of a divide that at least systemically no longer exists.”

    Even though there used to be more white people in jail because they committed more crime and even even though more white people commit more crime now there are more black people in jail. You say that there is no longer a divide?

    I say you are attending to the notions in your own head instead of the facts of who is and is not in jail and who does and does not commit crime.

  • Cindy D

    It has become okay in your narrow mind to decide that poor people from bad neighborhoods can be jailed more often. You are a screaming racist.

  • Cindy D

    I resent what you and people like you have done to MY country.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox, you’re confusing active racism with the racial divide. The latter is the antithesis of what Martin Luther King envisioned when he talked about Whites and Blacks ‘sitting down together at the table of brotherhood’. On a practical, everyday level, that part of the Dream is still some way off, purely because of peer pressure and individual choice.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “It has become okay in your narrow mind to decide that poor people from bad neighborhoods can be jailed more often. You are a screaming racist.”

    Thanks for telling me how I feel. For your information, I grew up very poor, in a bad neighborhood. I’m a racist? Wrong, I’m just not living in liberal fantasy land.

    In the future, debate my comments. Don’t waste my time telling me what I think or who I am. You really don’t have much of an opinion besides them talking points do you?

    It would seem based on your posts (and not some nonsense that I dreamed up about you) that you seem to think that there is a systemic prejudice against blacks in our legal system. Care to prove that allegation? Just FYI, stats aren’t proof.

    Another point, you blur the lines between white and black, rich and poor. But let’s be clear, no one cares what color you are as long as you have green in your pockets. Is there a class divide? Sure, I’d never deny that. But it’s not racially motivated (but perhaps systemic) divide.

    Cindy, we are all less smart for even engaging in this conversation with you.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “I resent what you and people like you have done to MY country.”

    People like me? lolllll you are sounding more and more foolish with every post. Zing, care to catch her back?

  • bliffle

    Marsh,

    It’s a mistake to judge a man by the company he keeps.

    Judas kept excellent company.

  • Pablo

    Ruvy,

    To set the record straight as it seems like you are putting words into my mouth sir. I never said that Israel should not exist. I simply set out in a very brief way my understanding of how the globalists started the state with the Balfour Declaration.

    Might makes right, as it always has and always will when it comes to territory, just as my own country was created by force of arms, and sending native inhabitants to reservations. Does the US have a right to exist. Of course it does, as your country does too. The proof is in the pudding as it were. So please refrain from mis-characterizing what I say, as I NEVER said nor implied that your country does not have the right to exist. That would be foolish, as it does in fact exist.

    Pablo

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doc – really? You think I know what’s taught in that church every Sunday? Apparently, you do and I’m proud of you. Yeah, maybe he didn’t preach that hate every Sunday, but he did it more than once…it isn’t just the 9/11 sermon…there are a few others…the AIDS thing and the govt…he’s a nut! There’s more, but they slip my mind. And still Obama sat there with his family MOST Sundays and listened intently.

    I stopped going to church when I was about 16 because of shit I heard on Sundays! He kept going for twenty fucking years! Yeah great the church did great things…the way I remember my history books, Germany was in a deep depression before WWII. Did that make that guy that took the reins any better???

  • Cindy D

    “Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black.”

    Said by you Obnoxious American.

    In other words, it is okay to throw poor people (including poor black people) in jail, out of proportion to the crime they commit. Why is that? Because they are poor or because they are black and poor?

    You know what? This is what capitalism apparently breeds. People so blind to their own racism, classism and bigotry that they proudly proclaim its normalcy without even recognizing it.

    YES, I PROVED IT…PLEASE DEBATE THE INFO IN THE LINKS I GAVE YOU.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    I am merely stating facts. In fact, I think we are all confusing class divisions with racial ones. As someone who grew up in a house with the electicity frequently turned off for lack of payment, I can attest that you don’t have to be black to be poor, and you certainly don’t have to be black to suffer prejudice.

    It’s actually the opposite of what you say, I agree that active racism still exists, and will always exist in some form or another (just ask Muslims). But systemic racism does not. It’s the systemic racism that causes racial division.

    Once you dismantle systemic prejudice, all that is left is the result of the prior divide. Such is the case we have now where an African American can make a realistic run for the white house (progress), but many blacks are still poor or underprivledged (artifacts of prior divide).

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    If you are going to call yourself The Obnoxious American, you really should toughen up when someone calls you something you find obnoxious.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    It would seem based on your posts (and not some nonsense that I dreamed up about you) that you seem to think that there is a systemic prejudice against blacks in our legal system. Care to prove that allegation? Just FYI, stats aren’t proof.

    Then what would be, Obnox? It’s hardly fair to challenge for proof and then disqualify any data before it’s even provided.

    Sure, stats are tricky. But consider this. Arrest figures show that whites and blacks are arrested at a ratio of about 70-20 – as you’d expect given the makeup of the general population. So why is the prison population half black? Somewhere between the back of the cop car and the jailhouse door, something is going on.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    It’s clear you are debating with yourself. I won’t defend the statements you seem to wish I was saying (i.e. suggesting I said it was “OK” if more blacks are in jail due to racism), rather than the comments I did say. You are truly a charicature of a left wing nut.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Oh and Doc – it wasn’t any media figure that painted the friendship between Obama and the Rev…it was Obama himself who said he was his mentor!!! So let’s not blame all this on Fox news…m’kay?!??!

  • Pablo

    Obnoxious, and you sir are clearly obnoxious. I do however have respect for someone that lives up to their name, albeit obnoxious :).

  • Cindy D

    What do you mean by this?

    “Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black.”

    If most crime is committed by white people but we put more people in prison because they come from poor (and black) neighborhoods, what meaning does that hold for you, besides being obviously okay and correct?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc, thanks for taking the incomprehensible and making a reasoned discussion out of it.

    Are those stats of all crime? Or violent crime? Not all crimes are equal. For a real analysis, we’d need a comparison between conviction rates of whites and blacks for the same crime (and even then the same type of crime – crime of passion versus crime of greed or serial killers). Merely showing these numbers isn’t proof of anything.

    And it would seem to me, if there was a systemic racism in our justice system, resulting in the type of imbalance in conviction rates that you suggest, it would be very easy to prove. It’s not like the south is still all fat white guys. Obama did win several southern states. That wouldn’t have ever occured in a truly racist society that some here are painting the US to be(I hate what Cindy’s done to the perception of our society!)

    But let’s put this aside for the moment. I think that this can be explained by what i termed the “artifacts of prior racial divide”, is that really so far fetched? And some portion of our jail populace have been there since before our recent enlightenments.

    You don’t want me to quote Mark Twain again do you :>

  • The Obnoxious American

    Pablo,

    Takes one to know one.

    Regards,

    OA

  • Cindy D

    Your comment was racist OA. What do you have to say about your point of view. You are claiming that we are somehow past the worst effects of racism. Then you make a blatantly racist and elitist comment. As if it is okay to jail the poor (and black). Notice I put poor first. Because I really think in your narrow capitalist mind that it’s really poor people that it’s okay to mistreat. I think their being black is really secondary to your elitist mindset.

    That is as close to a compliment as you’ll ever likely receive from me. I hope you recognize it. Unintentionally racist, but elitist is much better than racist elitist.

    I am not twisting your words. I am quoting them.

    “Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black.”

  • The Obnoxious American

    You know, this whole chat brings to mind something that’s been a hot issue round these parts. I am talking about the Sean Bell case.

    I wasn’t in the jury, won’t claim to know the ins and outs of this case.

    Reality check – two of the three cops involved were black. Sean Bell was at a club the cops were monitoring for drugs and prostitution. The cops tried to pull over Bell, there was resistance, a cop testified that he heard someone in the car say something to the effect of, “get the gun”, the cops opened fire and 51 bullets later, all originating from the police, Sean Bell was dead, the other two in his car seriously wounded.

    Al Sharpton was quick to call what happened racism. Some have termed it Driving While Black. That two of the three cops involved were black doesn’t seem to matter. Sensationalism has been whipped up to an all time high.

    I am not defending the cops, clearly they made a mistake. But why does it have to be viewed as racially motivated? Sean Bell didn’t do the right thing either. If I am pulled over, I pull over, I am courteous to the police. I keep my hands in my lap and don’t reach for the glove box without first explaining that my insurance is in there. Hence I don’t generally get shot at by police.

    I think it’s far too common these days for some to sensationalize racism, to the chorus of self hating whites like Cindy D, when it simply doesn’t exist. Again, I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist, it does and is arguably a part of our DNA. But it isn’t the explaination nor cause for all of the ills in the world. And I will stand by my original comment, we don’t need anyone to heal any such divide in 2008.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    Please stop being disingenuous. It’s silly. You can repost one sentence out of what I said as often as you wish, one need only scroll up to see just how ridicoulous you are being.

    A tip for you in future discussions, argue the idea, not the person.

    And thank you for calling me elite.

  • Cindy D

    I called you elitist, not elite. This twist is a perfect example (likely lost on you as most anything that doesn’t agree with you is) of your inability to comprehend anything outside of your own narrow mindset.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    It’s obvious that you’ve been backed into a corner over your Nazi comment. And now, like a rabid mouse, you seize upon whatever you can and laughingly try to suggest I said something when any READING of my full comment makes clear that I don’t beleive racism was ok.

    My post was stating reality, not approving of it.

    Since you seem to be immune to reading, but you also seem to be fond of taking a sentence of mine, ignorant of the context or the message, and cast it as racist, I will repost the original comment. Try to read it this time (or scroll up to post #69:

    “Sure, most people in Jail are black. Poor people in urban centers tend to be black. But no longer is there a divide in this country. What we have now is the result of a divide that at least systemically no longer exists. It will of course take many years for the effects of the divide to normalize.

    I agree that when I was growing up, being white gave you a privledge. I can tell you that when I was a youth on the city streets, the cops tended to be a lot kinder to this white boy than to many of my African American friends.

    In this day and age, many cops in NYC are black. Are we suggesting that they are continuing the systemic oppression of blacks? Let’s be serious. And this is just one example. Same could be said for corporate opportunities, educational opportunities, etc. It’s all there for any underprivledged person, white or black, should they pursue it.

    I’m sure there are still klansmen somewhere out there (perhaps in some dark corners of NYC), but the difference these days is that they’ve been forced out of the mainstream. It is a crime to be racist now, and you will get prosecuted. So talking about a divide in 2008 is ignoring the realities of how far we’ve come, and is quite the opposite of the audacity of hope.”

    Pretty shameful of you to try and cast these comments as anything other than what they are – commentary on the state of things, recognition of how far we’ve come as a country, recognition of what still needs to be done.

    I’ll gladly debate anyone of any political persuasion with respect. But you Maam, have no respect. You come in here calling me a Nazi, then a racist. To quote a classic rap song, you betta check yaself before you wreck yaself.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Apologies for the dangling Italics, itals should have ended with (reposted for effect :>)

    Pretty shameful of you to try and cast these comments as anything other than what they are – commentary on the state of things, recognition of how far we’ve come as a country, recognition of what still needs to be done.

    I’ll gladly debate anyone of any political persuasion with respect. But you Maam, have no respect. You come in here calling me a Nazi, then a racist. To quote a classic rap song, you betta check yaself before you wreck yaself.

  • Pablo

    Obnoxius said:

    “You are truly a charicature of a left wing nut.”

    “A tip for you in future discussions, argue the idea, not the person.”

    Hmmm, whatever you say OB, I truly love the hypocrisy of your ilk, please keep it up.

  • Clavos

    There’s nothing wrong with being an elitist.

  • Pablo

    Obnoxious said:
    “gain, I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist, it does and is arguably a part of our DNA.”

    You must be taking your marching orders from the eugenicists, most notably the Rockyfellers. Unfortunately only a fool would argue that racism exists in our DNA. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us Obnoxious and living up to your namesake.

  • Pablo

    you ought to know Clavy.

  • Brian aka Guppusmaximus

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

    Samuel Johnson, 1775

    HA!! Quoting words from a lousy, God-fearing writer who even knocked the NAVY.

    It is so fitting… In the midst of a country(Iraq) trying to free itself from the grasp of oppression & murder, we have some sort of philosopher degrading our soldiers efforts & the people who support them with this hogwash. Samuel Johnson was the same sort of pansy who didn’t want to stand up for his country either and that was during the Revolution… What a shame!

    What place does he have now in history other than being a second place hack to Shakespeare.

    “Lies feed your judgement of others
    Behold how the blind lead each other
    The Philosopher
    You know so much about nothing at all”

    Chuck Shuldiner,1993

  • Clavos

    I do, Pablo. I’m proudly elitist.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Being second to Shakespeare is not such a cruel fate. Much better than a metal guitarist who most people will have to look up and still won’t know.

  • Cindy D

    That is what you find LEAST intelligent about the whole conversation?

    Please, come back and pretend to be offended some more.

  • Pablo

    Bjork,

    Yeah I know the truth sux don’t it.

    Unfortunately the gatekeepers will soon omit the truthful offending remark.

    [Yes, unfortunately so. Unfortunately, some commenters don’t respect either our comments policy or their fellow commenters.

    ASSISTANT COMMENTS EDITOR]

    —————
    Guppusmaximus,

    As to who said the Patriotism remark, its stands on its own merit, and has never been more apt then in todays Amerika.

    You said:

    “In the midst of a country(Iraq) trying to free itself from the grasp of oppression & murder, we have some sort of philosopher degrading our soldiers efforts & the people who support them with this hogwash.”

    Unfortunately your argument does not have any merit whatsoever. First of all Iraq as you call it is nothing more than at the very least 3 distinct separate cultures, the the country as you call it was created by the Brits, not the “Iraqis”, and will NEVER imho be a cohesive state. Furthermore I am of the opinion (having never been there) that the vast majority of Iraqis want the real oppressors out, the US government and its goonsquads. There are those of us Americans that do not share your my country love it or leave it, support the troops, illegal (undeclared under the supreme law of the land, war). The only hogwash here is that you are your kind have no compunction about killing over 600,000 human beings for no reason at all, other than your supreme arrogance and hubris. I dream of the day when those that did decide to invade the sovereignty of another nation, with pre-emptive, false pretense motives witll be held to account in our courts of law. I know I am a dreamer, but I will continue to dream.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “After viewing that type of vituperation here, I will now tune out and seek intelligent discussion elsewhere.”

    How cute. Look who got a word-of-the-day calender for Xmas.

  • Clavos

    Gupp sez:

    It is so fitting… In the midst of a country(Iraq) trying to free itself from the grasp of oppression & murder, we have some sort of philosopher degrading our soldiers efforts & the people who support them with this hogwash. Samuel Johnson was the same sort of pansy who didn’t want to stand up for his country either…

    I already did my “standing up,” Gupp. I’m a disabled combat vet of the Vietnam war; I’ve earned my right to dissent, so don’t come on to me with that bullshit.

    And Iraq means nothing to me. The only people in Iraq who count for anything to me are the uniformed American troops.

    After the useless, futile, wasteful experience I (and 500,00 others, especially the 58,000 who didn’t make it back alive) had in Vietnam for no valid reason, I wouldn’t fight again for this country for any reason, nor will I ever let the youngsters in my family do so.

    If you don’t like that, tough; you’ve obviously mistaken me for someone who cares.

    What place does he have now in history other than being a second place hack to Shakespeare.

    That alone gives Johnson a bigger place in history than anyone on this blog will ever achieve, me included.

  • Clavos

    Correction to my #108:

    The figure 500,000 should have been 2,500,000.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “You must be taking your marching orders from the eugenicists, most notably the Rockyfellers. Unfortunately only a fool would argue that racism exists in our DNA. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us Obnoxious and living up to your namesake.”

    Pablo,

    You can stop behind a blowhard everytime. You could make your point without trying to disparage me or call me a racist.

    And yes, it’s quite obvious, except perhaps to your “ilk” that this is in our DNA. Thinking in evolutionary terms, isn’t the fear of something different than ourselves a good survival tactic? Obviously so.

    This is basic common sense. Does it excuse the history of racism in this country, no. Does it accept it, or suggest that we shouldn’t change? obviously not.

    But it’s clear that humans (white or black or whatever) have a built in fear of things that are strange to them. In the US, this fear has manifested itself in white/black racism (it was helped along with slavery). In other cultures, the prejudice is on religious grounds, or which clan someone might be from, etc. This is all manifestations of the fear of the unknown.

    Incidentally, I have several African American friends. Dated a woman who was black. I grew up in NYC remember? It’s hard to grow up here and not come into contact with people of all creeds and colors. I recognize the destruction to African culture as a result of slavery, and that cost continues to this very day. I really wish Obama was a Republican, because personally I think he is a great guy, and with a real platform, I’d definitely vote for him. I wish Alan Keys was a real candidate and not a loony. But that Obama is a Democrat and an African American shouldn’t mean I can’t attack him just like I’d attack a white candidate (I did attack Hillary until she was no longer the frontrunner…). It’s just hillarious to me when people come in my article, call me a Nazi and a racist, yet they dont know a thing about me, take a word or sentence out of context, and when I show them to be the fools that they are, they call me names as a final hurrah.

    Well, I say Hurrah!

  • Pablo

    Clavos said:

    “And Iraq means nothing to me. The only people in Iraq who count for anything to me are the uniformed American troops.”

    I wonder why that would be Clavy. What is it that you share with your fellow Americans other than your love of the constitution (cough) or McDonalds? Why is it that you would care about the fate of those wearing the uniform of the USA, who are uninformed (dumb) and not those 600 some odd thousands of men women and children that have been slaughtered? This is exactly the kind of arrogance and blind obedience to NOTHING, that I find so offensive with some of my fellow Americans. Human beings are human beings Clavy, red white and blue dont mean squat. An innocent baby is an innocent baby all around the world, and those that kill them for no reason should be held accountable.
    Support the troops my ass. Oh thats right I almost forgot! They are over there protecting our Freedom (louder cough), and making our country safer (childish immature smirk for Clavy). Sure bubba.

  • Cindy D

    OA,

    I took you completely in the context you intended.

    But, discussing something with you is like trying to have a discussion with someone who keeps putting their fingers in their ears and saying, “la la la la I can’t hear you.”

    It just gets irritatingly pointless.

  • Pablo

    Obnoxius,

    I do not recall referring to you as a racist. I was simply pointing out that your DNA argument is absurd. The fact that some people fear outsiders could hardly be assumed to be in the DNA code, and that is what I was talking about. And the reference to taking marching orders from eugenecists was simply my way of inserting a way of letting others that do not know it, that the Rockefeller family has been supporting eugenics for almost a century. Sorry if you took offense.

  • Cindy D

    pablo,

    you didnt have to actually call him a racist. he doesnt actually read what people say when he disagrees with them.

    he just projects his own ideas into your comments. he only understand what people mean when he agrees with them.

    keep talking to him and see if it doesnt piss you off.

  • Clavos

    I wonder why that would be Clavy. What is it that you share with your fellow Americans other than your love of the constitution (cough) or McDonalds?

    I don’t share much at all with Americans, Pablo, including love of the Constitution; it’s a piece of paper, I don’t love it, it’s just there.

    As for McDonalds: I’d call it pig food, except I think we should feed pigs (at least the ones we plan to eat) better food.

    The GIs in the shit in Iraq I care about because we share a common sorry experience of having been duped into fighting and risking (and sometimes losing) our lives for a worthless cause.

    You mistake me, Pablo. I am not a patriot, nor I do claim allegiance to just one country, which is why I quoted Johnson.

  • Brian aka Guppusmaximus

    El Bicho,

    Much better than a metal guitarist who most people will have to look up and still won’t know.

    Still,not good enough though,huh… Always in the shadow. I would rather be un-famous than infamous.

    *Pablo doesn’t rate a reply because he is way off in la-la land & I don’t care for people who suck off the U.N.’s teet*

    Clavos,

    When I said stand up for this country, it doesn’t always mean grabbing a weapon. The dissent in this country towards our President during war time is just as much a pansy move as not realizing what your job was when you(in general) signed the dotted line.

    I myself was in The Marines and though I never saw war, my father served in Vietnam and came back a complete f*cking mess… So, did he really come back?! And, still, I can never truly understand what it was like! But, I do know this… I’m not gonna stop standing up for my country just because alot of these dilluted weirdos tell me I’m wrong. And, I’m not gonna quite sticking up for my country because I was done wrong in the service as well. Not as bad as what you went through but it was bad enough for me!!

  • Zedd

    This election is a test on just how stupid the American public is. If Wright’s comments will affect the voters, then we are indeed stupid. Especially after 8 years of George Bush.

  • Pablo

    Clavos,

    Oh I know your not a patriot, that has been clear to me for some time. I just wonder why you care only about human beings that you shared a mutual experience with. If you were driving down the street and saw a person hit by a car, (providing you have not been hit by one yourself) would you just keep on driving bubba? I assume you pay taxes, if so it is YOUR money that is being spent to slaughter innocent human beings, if you do not care, it only reaffirms what I think of you anyways, and I am not surprised. I do care however, and will continue to; and if I saw that person hit by a car, I would stop. Why? Let me explain it to you. It is called humanity, empathy, and caring. It is not a liberal quality, it is a human one, and I truly feel pity for any human being that cannot empathize with another’s suffering or being the victim of slaughter. So you keep on going Clavy, and dont give a shit about those that your money have killed, I will double my caring to cover your lameness.

  • http://Pablo Pablo

    Brian,

    Thats fine, I like your characterization of me, and am glad you find my writing less than intelligent. As to the UN however, I cannot stand the organization, its founders, or its purposes. I did not write that for you Brian, as if I am in La La land, the place that you dwell in is not even worth describing. Enjoy your ignorance, I am.

  • Clavos

    Oh I know your not a patriot, that has been clear to me for some time.

    When I was young and even more stupid than I am now, I was doubly a patriot, for the two countries which conferred citizenship on me.

    Then, one of those governments sent me off to a war they knew we could not win, because they had no intention of winning it.

    That’s when I found out that I can count on the fingers of both hands those who really care about me. And my countries aren’t included. Either of them.

    I owe them nothing.

    I can and do empathize, Pablo. I have (and care for) a seriously ill, nearly helpless wife who requires a lot of help, which I give gladly; I would cheerfully lay down my life for her.

    I give to charity, volunteer at the VA hospital, and teach illiterate adults to read.

    Those who care about me say I am a good husband/brother/friend to them.

    But not a country, Pablo. Never a country. Not again.

  • Pablo

    Clavos,

    Fair enough, however I will say it is much easier to care for your own loved ones, then for those that we never see that are being killed in our name.

    I appreciate your frankness, and your humanity, that being said, I am humbly suggesting that you extend it to those that you do not personally know, as they are as human as you or me, and deserved to be treated humanely and with dignity.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Andy #84:

    Huh???

    Is there another doctor in the house?

    I don’t recall saying that it was the media who had painted the relationship between Obama and his pastor. I’m damn sure I didn’t mention Fox News.

    I choose my words very carefully.

  • Ruvy

    It doesn’t excuse Cindy’s way out of line comments about me, her trivializing of what it means to be a Nazi, nor the amount of backpeddling she’s done since then to avoid admitting that her comments were shameful, and in bad taste.

    Obnoxious?,

    Try arguing over at Desicritics. There they have an editor who chants like a mantra, “the new Nazis are the Jews” and who calls himself a “poet”, a woman who tosses around $50 words and thinks she is a scholar. Cindy is nothing compared to these two – who are in reality vicious and mean, and who peddle lies like they were used cars on a dunghill. And they have an entire amen corner to go with them, including an idiot who thinks that because he married a Jewish woman, he is free of bigotry.

    By comparison, Cindy is a bit insensitive and somewhat ignorant.

    It’s like I keep telling you, boychick. If you want to wrap yourself in a foreign flag in exile (the Stars and Stripes), you’re just going to have to tolerate the standard amount of Jew-hatred you’re going to get in a country in exile. In addition, as is evident from this comment thread, you’re going to have to carry the cross of American racism on your back every damned time you raise the subject.

    As I’ve told you many times, you’re not obnoxious at all. You’re just offended by the remarks of a bigoted black prick.

    Boychick, America is just chock full of bigoted black pricks. Reverend Wrong just happens to have a public platform so he can fart out his viewpoint for all to hear.

    As for the National Press Club interview, you’ve been paying attention to all the wrong lines (as usual). This is the money shot.

    Following another question from the ever more smirking Ms. Lienwand (who at this point had an even bigger smirk – I interpreted each smirk as approval), regarding Obama’s response to the Wright issue:

    “Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on the polls. Preachers have a different person to whom they are accountable. I do what pastors do. He does what politicians do.”

    If you were familiar with the shit that certain “Torah sages” pull in this country, shilling for money for their yeshivót, and taking bribes all over the place, you’d have recognized that someone is paying the Reverend Wrong to pee all over Obama’s shoes.

    That’s the real story in this article, Obnoxious?.

    Oh, by the way. If you want to read someone who is truly obnoxious, read over the older articles here, looking for the remarks of a certain SHARK. You can learn an awful lot about being entertaining, as well as obnoxious.

    And just for the record, eventually I filed his teeth, too.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doc – from your comment #35 earlier…The logical gymnastics Obama’s opponents have been using to try and paint his friendship with Wright as some kind of fatal character flaw would be comical if they weren’t so indicative of the sad sick way American politics seems to work these days.

    Now I’ll admit that I read into this a bit…but still, it’s not any of his opponents that are painting this friendship, Obama himself said Wright was his mentor…and I’m sorry, but I don’t spend any considerable time with people I don’t like and i surely wouldn’t sit in a place that gives them a forum to voice opinions I don’t agree with for 20 years…

    I mean, come on, think about it…how do you suppose folks would act if McCain or even Clinton for that matter were friends with David Duke???

    Pretending that his friendships of twenty years don’t say anything about his character is just…well…I hate to say it..but, in my opinion, it’s a little ignorant!

    And yes..I do think his friendship with a racist pastor for twenty years is a “fatal character flaw”. But I’m just being a little “clingy”.

  • Doug Hunter

    “And yes..I do think his friendship with a racist pastor for twenty years is a ‘fatal character flaw’.”

    If it were a white candidate with racist mentor or who went to a white supremacist church it is 100% guaranteed this relationship would be a killer, endind his candidacy immediately. Being ‘disadvantaged’ by his minority status we hold Obama to a lower standard.

    There are tons of examples of this, another obvious one is the voting patterns. Whites are routinely chastised and implicated as racists in the media for voting 60-40 against Obama. Blacks are allowed to vote 95% for Obama based only on skin color and it’s glossed over (again if whites in one single precicnt anywhere voted 95% against Obama it would be simply unfathomable, but would be lambasted in the media as a bunch of backwoods racist rednecks)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doug – Are you being clingy too???

  • zingzing

    obnoxious: “It’s funny because you cling to the idea that the US’s goal should be to improve the world, but in the same post, you make fun of the results of these attempts”

    israel is a great example of where we put our own interests ahead of what was really best for the world. no one involved thought that sticking a modern state of israel in the middle of palestine was going to stabalize the region. it’s called a buffer.

    you say something about 20/20 hindsight and navel gazing. well, i’m staring at my navel right now and i tell you this: the united states has fouled up nearly every attempt it has made a nation-building. we can’t do it right. so we shouldn’t do it IN THE FUTURE. that’s called foresight. or learning from past mistakes.

    “Being above partisanship is the very centerpiece of Obama’s campaign.”

    that’s a reaction to the complete cock-up that is bush’s attempt to “reach across the isle,” which is the same damn thing that obama is saying with “being above partisanship.”

    “Rather than tell us not to follow our own foreign policy, the UN could have ensured that we didnt go to war with Saddam by removing greed and corruption from it’s programs. But it didn’t.”

    so now we went to iraq because of the UN’s “greed and corruption?” i thought it was to “stop terrorism” or “get rid of iraq’s wmds” or something. what the fuck are you talking about?!

    “But to sit there and complain that we went into Iraq out of some gung ho unilateralism is ignoring the realities at the time and playing into the classic liberal argument that Bush is evil, that the GOP is evil, that Cheney is Darth Vader, etc. It’s all nonsense.”

    WHAT?! are you kidding? how we went into iraq is the very definition of gung ho unilateralism. we went in without the support of a majority of nations, and no other nation would have even touched the place if we hadn’t made it some “with us or against us” bullshit. you have to be kidding yourself.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Now I’ll admit that I read into this a bit…

    You sure did:

    it’s not any of his opponents that are painting this friendship, Obama himself said Wright was his mentor

    I never said the friendship wasn’t real. I said that a lot of bullshit was being read into the friendship in an attempt to reflect it badly upon Obama.

    how do you suppose folks would act if McCain or even Clinton for that matter were friends with David Duke

    You’re seriously putting Jeremiah Wright up there on a footing with David Duke? Come on.

    Pretending that his friendships of twenty years don’t say anything about his character is just…well…I hate to say it..but, in my opinion, it’s a little ignorant!

    Putting words in my mouth (fingertips?) again. Of course they do. It’s just that to me, this one says something a bit different than it does to you, obviously.

  • The Obnoxious American

    I didn’t have time to respond last night, but it’s amazing to me that I say evolutionary and Pablo tries to cast that as “Eugenics.”

    Here was my original quote:

    “And yes, it’s quite obvious, except perhaps to your “ilk” that this is in our DNA. Thinking in evolutionary terms, isn’t the fear of something different than ourselves a good survival tactic? Obviously so.”

    Pablo was quick to classify my evolution argument as a sign of support and belief in Eugenics:

    “You must be taking your marching orders from the eugenicists, most notably the Rockyfellers. Unfortunately only a fool would argue that racism exists in our DNA. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us Obnoxious and living up to your namesake.”

    I was actually talking evolution. Here is wikipedia’s definition of Eugenics.

    “Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention.[1]”

    What? That’s not what I said. I don’t get you Pablo. Do you even know what you are talking about? Your trying to link the idea that being afraid of things that are different as a type of genetic intervention just proves to me how little you are listening.

    If I were you, I’d try and read about the things I was claiming others were saying. Better yet, stop telling me what I am saying. My comments don’t need your liberal, shrill and reflexive translation. They stand alone.

    And as far as what I originally said, anyone whose ever stepped foot in the forest and notices that Bambi doesn’t come right up to you ready to eat out of your hand knows that what I am saying is right. It’s a natural response to be afraid of what’s different. Here was the basic scenario:

    caveman a – not afraid of something different
    caveman b – afraid of something different

    Something different comes along, “b” hides, “a” shows curiosity. “A” gets eaten. “B”‘s fear survives – natural selection. Or is suggesting natural selection racist too?

    Pablo, you are strictly amateur hour.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Cindy,

    Your comments about how I don’t listen… take a look in the mirror lady. You are the nexus of ignorance and shrill.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    I appreciate your kind words. I can do without the lecture – I live in NYC, and I won’t be moving to Israel anytime soon. But this is a good thing – you can be sure this American Jew will always be on your side. But please quit the lecturing, thanks.

  • bliffle

    When John McCains adventures with crazy religionists were reported they quickly disappeared from sight. Overnight. Why is that? It’s because as long as Obama-haters keep beating the drums we are all deprived of serious discussion of REAL issues, instead of this flagrant McCarthyism.

  • Ruvy

    Just trying to give you some pointers, ob….

    I was born and raised in NYC. About 35 or 36 years ago, I joined the North Bronx Republican Club, and tried to sell them my socialist syndicalist ideas (carefully clothed in various forms of “private enterprise”). They were a conservative bunch, by my standards, but were willing to listen to a persuasive talker. A lot of them were Irishmen and Italians who had small businesses in the North Bronx and elsewhere. Me and my room-mate were the only Jews in the club.

    At one point, they were considering pushing a law to restore Sunday closings in New York. Being the good Jewish boy that I was, I sat down with one of the club’s bigwigs on a Saturday morning, in a restaurant owned by a Greek and serviced by Irish waitresses. We were eating bacon, eggs and hashbrowns, and drinking coffee. I explained to the club bigwig, a former DEA agent who was studying Chinese culture, that pushing a Sunday closing would alienate all the Jews on the Grand Concourse, even if they weren’t religious, and that it would blow any chance of getting them to turn Republican from their Democratic normal positions. Larry Franklin, looked at me with his bright eyes, and he understood. Quietly, the plan to push Sunday closings was dropped.

    Larry, now known as Dr. Lawrence Franklin, never lost his taste for under the table intrigue that he had gotten at the DEA, and managed to get himself involved in a sting on some fools from AIPAC. When he realized what the sting was really about, he pulled out of it. He could smell something wrong and his moral sense told him that the folks he had agreed to work for smelled – like bad cops. And that is why he is sitting in jail now, instead of teaching classes in West Virginia or working as a consultant for the government on Iranian affairs.

    Franklin is a patriot, but he is also an honorable man, and in the end, he did what an honorable man would do. And he is paying for being an honorable man. Just something to think about as you see these less than honorable men lie and impugn a whole people on national TV. Don’t allow yourself to be insulted. Just remember that no matter what kind of clerical cloth they claim, they are moral midgets, and not worth your attention.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Bliffle,

    I don’t think that is right either. If McCain has some dirty laundry, by all means let’s air it. It’s not my fault if this information was somehow squelched, but let’s not pretend that the media as a whole is trying to do McCain favors, that’s false. The Media is barely able to contain their general enthusiasm for President Obama. Just yesterday, the party line on the Wright affair was, “This is great, now Obama has put the Wright mess behind him.” Sunny days eh?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    Interesting history, you sound like a pretty cool guy. I hope you are no longer a socialist.

    The concept of an honorable man being jailed in American society isn’t lost of me. In fact, it’s pretty clear to most Americans that American justice is about as fair as your attorney is good. And I’ve alluded to this earlier by suggesting that the fact that most African Americans are poor explains why more are in jail (can’t pay for good lawyers). Think I am wrong? Try getting represented by the court appointed attorney and when you are done serving your sentence you can come back here and tell us how that worked out for you. (for the shrill folk) I am not excusing it, but we all know it’s the truth.

    That said, I have to disagree with your last point Ruvy. Of the three candidates that we have to choose from, one actually is an honorable man in my opinion. War hero, prisoner of war, decades of service to his country, conducting himself with honor. Karl Rove wrote a great article about McCain in today’s WSJ. Is he perfect? No, he was involved in the Keating 5, he was against the Bush tax cuts, he’s made occassional offhand comments (bomb bomb Iran). But even with those negatives, put him up next to these two poodles on the democrat side, and it should be no contest. I am proud of the GOP for at least choosing the right candidate this year.

    It would really be nice if the demagogues here can get over their bush derangement syndrome and actually read Karl’s piece, but I know that’s too much to ask. So I urge all the normal people (yes, you too Ruvy) to read it and get some background on this great American whom we are lucky is running for pres.

  • Zedd

    obnoxious

    At first I thought that this article was written by Helois. I thought, “whats wrong with her”? Did she not grow up around Blacks? I get EVERYTHING that he is saying in these quotes and all of it is standing up and clapping worthy.

    I looked up again and realized that it was you who wrote the article and calmed down. Oh, he wouldn’t get it.

    There is so much cultural infusion in everything that is being said that you cant possibly get it. You WOULD miss it. To me you sound like a social retard, you are so off. But off course because it is not European culture that you are embarrassingly ignorant of, its not important.

    But FYI just in case you care – FAUX PAS, cringe worthy ingorance on your part.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Hmm. Interesting. Rove, the architect of McCain’s demise in 2000, praising him to the skies. Turd Blossom is nothing if not subtle.

    If the GOP primaries weren’t done and dusted, and Romney or one of the other clowns were still in the race, I’d be quietly lifting a little red flag about now.

    Uncle Karl, ever so gently coaxing McCain to open up… to reveal some little private secret… to be used as – what?

    On the face of it, the article just fleshes out what we all know: McCain as war hero. If it weren’t for that last little paragraph or two at the end…

    I must say that if I were McCain reading that piece, the hairs on the back of my neck would be prickling a little bit. Kind of like the way they did when the school bully suddenly started acting all friendly…

  • The Obnoxious American

    It’s a faux pas for me to be offended by Wrights comments in support of calling Zionism or Judaism a gutter religion?

    This man claims the government conspired to give blacks AIDS, claimed that Farrakhan is one of the greatest voices in the 20 AND 21st century (the same Farrakhan who said that Hitler was a “great man”.

    And I am the one making the faux pas?

    I grew up around Blacks. This isn’t a black and white thing. Educate yourself is all I can say.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    Lollll, see guys, this is a Democrat that I can debate with.

    Except I can’t debate you on this one. His hairs are probably getting prickly. Perhaps more prickly than at any time in the hanoi hilton….

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Thanks, Obnox.

    Not a Democrat, though. Not sure I would be even if I were eligible to vote. I took this quiz earlier on and came up (as I suspected) as a middle-of-the-road left-libertarian. Apparently my views align pretty closely with the current platform of the British Green Party, for whom I’ve voted precisely once in my life (a local council candidate – sadly, I think the only other person who voted for him was… well, him!).

    As for the American Green Party, well, I might check them out. I suspect that they may be a bit different in outlook from their Limey (pun intended) counterparts. But we shall see.

  • Ruvy

    Thanks for the kind words, OA. Seriously, if you want to really understand reality here in my neck of the woods, you need to get on a plane and take a look. I’d be more than happy to sit and treat you to a cup of coffee and a bagel and lox sandwich at Holy Bagel in downtown J-lem. And also to show you that yes, you can really see the Mediterranean from here in Ma’alé Levoná.

    By the way, I still am a syndicalist socialist, just as I was 35 years ago. Syndicalist socialism is what built this country. Done right, it could restore the country’s economy, and wean it off of America and Europe.

    I have to disagree with your last point Ruvy. Of the three candidates that we have to choose from, one actually is an honorable man in my opinion.

    I wasn’t talking about the presidential candidates, I was talking about that bigoted black prick that Zedd seems to understand so well, Reverend Wrong, and all the bigoted black pricks of the cloth (even if it is just a breechcloth) who hold views like him.

    It’s not so much a faux pas to be offended by the asshole. It’s just not worth your time. Would you be offended by someone you knew to be a moral midget just because somebody handed him a soapbox and a bullhorn?

    Or would you be like me, and just have contempt for the SOB?

  • Doug Hunter

    Dr, I took the same quiz ands was surprised to find I was moderately libertarian (which I knew) but scored dead center on the right/left scale (I’d consider myself pretty far right). Very interesting.

  • Dan Miller

    Christopher Rose commented yesterday,

    All religions are gutter religions as they are based on lies, albeit possibly well intentioned lies. Religion is the enemy of humanity.

    Amen, bro.

    If I am ever elected God, I shall have a very difficult time deciding which to do away with first, cancer or religion. Having experienced and recovered from both, my guess is that religion is the worse.

    Dan

  • bliffle

    If people were to be judged by the company they keep (or kept) we would all be consigned to the madhouse for the wretched assemblage of commies, comsymps, fascists and neocons that we mingle with on this very blog.

    Don’t be dumb.

  • Zedd

    Obnoxious,

    You REALLY don’t get it. If someone tells me that I am waaaaaay of about interpreting their culture, using the words faux pas, I would be apt to pay attention just a little, however deflating that it may be.

    You lied about Wright saying that Judaism is a gutter religion. You simply lied. Are you feeling inferior right now? Seems as though you are reaching.

    Now… Do you know what Zionism says? Do you think that it is right for anyone to be given land because of their religion???? Perhaps faux pas is the wrong phrase after all. Kook, may be better. That is simply nutty. David Koresh and all of the wacky types all think that they are chosen and that they have a piece of land that is owed them (oldest scam or delusion).

    Farrakhan IS a significant figure and when he speaks people listen. Is that not true?

    Perhaps you are shallow or simply emotional and missed what was being said. You are fishing and none of what you presented as “evidence” represents anything of significance. Your emotional stance is what is thought to be dumb about Americans. You are stuck is “supposed to be land” a Hollywood rendition of real life. People are much more nuanced than a script. Smarten up and think. Ponder on why would this individual say XY or Z? You are simply shocked that he is not saying what he is supposed to say, which makes you very shallow, a mental light weight. It is because of people like you that we have Bush in office and spin masters and pundits rule the day. You expect to be manipulated and see anyone who isn’t lying to you as mean. How about we grow up and deal with the real world we live in dropping the cowboys and Indians/ good guys vs bad guys mentality that you were seemingly bred on.

  • Pablo

    and an obnoxious yawn for obnoxious

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zedd,

    “You REALLY don’t get it. If someone tells me that I am waaaaaay of about interpreting their culture, using the words faux pas, I would be apt to pay attention just a little, however deflating that it may be. ”

    Ever heard the old saying, “Consider the source?” Someone comes in here and suggests that I made a faux pas because I happened to be offended by Wright’s comments and I should take note? Well guess what, I did, and the note I took was that this person was out of touch.

    Moreover, given Obama’s own comments, it would seem that YOU are the one out of touch. Barack Obama claims that he is offended by what Wright said, and went on to say that “Rightly many Americans are offended” by the very comments that you are defending. So if I am guilty of this faux pas, then so is Obama as well as the majority of Americans who agree with me. Given that your views are out of line with Obama, I wonder whom you are voting for.

    Back here in reality land, I am guilty of nothing, and in fact you are guilty of trying to pose a double standard, one where Barack can be offended but where I cannot, one where a black man can make bogus comments about other races (a form of reverse racism) and it’s OK but when a white jew complains, he is somehow being racist.

    “You lied about Wright saying that Judaism is a gutter religion. You simply lied. Are you feeling inferior right now? Seems as though you are reaching.”

    I lied? I’d like you to prove that. No wait, don’t bother. Since you already think my being offended by attacks on my religion is a faux pas, not really much interested in what you have to say. I stand by my article.

    In terms of claiming that I lied, however, I have to respond. I quoted Wright exactly from his comments at NPC. My rewind button on my DVR is tired from how many times it had to endure the Wright comments at the NPC. Claim I am lying all you like, but that would in fact be a lie.

    “Perhaps you are shallow or simply emotional and missed what was being said. You are fishing and none of what you presented as “evidence” represents anything of significance.”

    I think racist comments by Wright, Obama’s pastor of 20 years is significant to judging the candidate who is running for president. Just like it would be significant if a white candidate followed a White Supremist preacher for 20 years. That you don’t is a faux pas in my opinion, although you may not have paid heed to that yet. The rest of America is.

    “You are simply shocked that he is not saying what he is supposed to say, which makes you very shallow, a mental light weight.”

    Thanks for explaining to me how I feel about it. Actually, as someone who (as a Jew) has been on the recieving end of plenty of prejudice, I am not shocked. I am however, offended.

    Mental light weight? Name calling is the last refuge of a poor argument.

    “It is because of people like you that we have Bush in office and spin masters and pundits rule the day. You expect to be manipulated and see anyone who isn’t lying to you as mean. How about we grow up and deal with the real world we live in dropping the cowboys and Indians/ good guys vs bad guys mentality that you were seemingly bred on. ”

    Loll people like me eh? First, the reason Bush won a second term has a lot more to do with the flawed candidate the dems put forth in 2004. It seems perhaps that we are seeing history repeat itself, but as the old saying goes, those who are not educated in history are doomed to repeat it.

    I’d like to point out that Dems frequently chastize Bush for being an ally of the sauds, but then you claim that he (and his minions) see things in terms of right or wrong, cowboys or indians. Paradox, or just more inane disgruntled no sequiturs? Hmm, I don’t have to wonder.

    What never ceases to amaze me is when Democrats claim that Republicans “want to be manipulated” or “are just repeating talking points.” I am sure some Republicans are as you describe. But compare that to the Obama by any means Democratic party who is the biggest example of sheep politics that I’ve seen in my lifetime. As I mentioned in prior articles, at least on the major issues in the GOP there is a debate. No such debate exists on the left. Yet they frequently claim it is others and not they who are easily manipulated. Perhaps this is a form of projection?

    Zedd, you’ve exposed yourself as an ignorant, prejudice and hateful person. At least to me. I suspect others here already knew this.

    I’d also like to point out that in all of the 20 articles I’ve posted here on Blog Critics, the arguments posed by you, Cindy D and Pablo in this article are the most emotional, least intelligent, and meaningless arguments I have ever heard. Your whole point is that I shouldn’t care about Wright, and I am racist for daring to actually understand the meaning behind what he said. Pretty flimsy reed if you ask me.

    One of the things I enjoy about BC is although we may not always agree, the conversation is at least enlightening for all involved.

    Not so here. Your obvious and unwavering support for Obama has clouded your ability to speak honestly about the article. You are practicing a sort of delusion, where you’ve settled on your candidate and nothing will sway you. And that’s cool, you have a right to feel that way. But it’s made for the most ignorant debate I’ve seen here. I’d advise all three of you to take a good hard look at your candidate, as well as the mirror.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Interesting read on CNN today, which echos many of the inconsistent views held by the likes of Zedd and “his ilk” that I’ve outlined. Seems I’m not the only one making such faux pas, even the mainstream media seems (by the definition of some here) to be RACIST!!!!

    Glenn Beck: Obama’s odd timing on Wright

  • The Obnoxious American

    To wit:

    Those who were outraged by Wright’s divisive and destructive comments that preyed on hate have been called racists by many. But, when Obama said he was “outraged” by the “divisive and destructive” comments that gave “comfort to those who prey on hate,” he’s called brave.

    For anyone believing this is about race for Wright’s critics, think of disgraced professor Ward Churchill. He was fired for research misconduct from University of Colorado at Boulder and made famous for saying many of the same things as Wright.

    If any presidential candidate from either side — white or black — had been using Churchill as a “sounding board” for the last twenty years, we would rightly dismiss them.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. This is just a small bit of the article. The “Rationalize for Obama” movement should give this article a read with an open and honest mind.