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Republicans: The Party of No? Oh, Yes!

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The Republicans are truly “The Party of No.” They have invoked the 60 vote majority rule in the Senate more times during this session than any Congress in history. Their hypocrisy is highlighted by the fact that many of the very people invoking it were, just a few years ago, campaigning in earnest to do away with it to thwart Democratic opposition.

They now claim that they are dutifully blocking bad legislation, when the truth is they are “blocking” President Obama. It is their obvious goal to completely block the Obama Administration from accomplishing anything. Additionally, they have blocked more than 60 Obama appointees which further ham-strings the administration forcing many agencies to operate without proper leadership including the Transportion Security Administration or TSA.

This is ALL political. The Republicans see this as being to their advantage come the mid-term elections, and perhaps beyond to 2012. How cynical is that? It has NOTHING to do with what is or is not good for the country. They are lying through their dazzling white teeth and fake tans when they claim anything different.

The most maddening thing is that Obama and many Democrats are still talking about creating a dialogue, about fostering bipartisanship, about working together with Republicans on health care reform and other legislation.

That ship sailed months ago. The Republicans claim that it has been Obama and the Democrats who were/are unwilling to negotiate, but it is plain that the GOP had no intention of working with Obama even before he took the oath.

It has been Republican lies that fostered the advent of the tea-baggers – lies about T.A.R.P., lies about the stimulus, lies about health care reform and so on. Republicans claimed that the stimulus, which they ALL voted against, would produce NO jobs, and yet they fall all over themselves to make it to ribbon cuttings wearing big shit-eating grins back at the home front, taking credit when projects funded by the stimulus start turning over dirt.

The tea-baggers are largely either poorly educated and/or poorly informed, mostly older “moral majority” types who have been led by the nose into believing all the lying crap the Republicans have spewed over the past several months. Many still believe in “death panels” and the impending, untimely end to grandma. Many still harp on Obama’s citizenship, and believe he is some kind of evil communist/fascist. Some believe he is the Antichrist. Some are just flat-out racists. All are bent on “taking back” their country when in fact, nothing has been taken from them.

On the whole, they are mindless dupes – just as were the Christian fundamentalists who were cajoled into backing Bush in 2000 and again in 2004. Most of them got nothing for their trouble except dismissal and derision from the Bush administration once the votes were counted.

The Republicans have no interests beyond their own political survival. That survival, as they see it, necessitates that they toe the line set down by the banks and mega corporations who fill their campaign coffers.

Most of the banks and big corporate interests look upon Obama as a wrench in their gears. The Republicans have been instructed to block Obama at every turn. If Obama praised “Mom and Apple Pie” the Reps would oppose it.

Unless and until the Dems grow a backbone, which doesn’t seem likely, the Obama Administration will doubtless continue to go down in flames. The only hope I can see is that this all-out stonewalling of Obama could have unintended consequences as more of the voting public recognizes just how craven the Republicans are, and how this is far more hurtful to the interests of the country than anything coming out of the Obama White House.

The best thing that can be said for most congressional Republicans is that compared to many Democrats, they have far better haircuts and wear better suits. Basically, most fabrics tend to drape better over a tight ass.

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About Baritone

  • http://jonsobel.com/ Jon Sobel

    You’re absolutely right about the GOP’s cynical and terrible-for-the-country obstructionism. You’ve painted the Tea Party movement much too simplistically, though. Ben McGrath explored them in a good New Yorker piece recently.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The best thing that can be said for most congressional Republicans is that compared to many Democrats, they have far better haircuts and wear better suits. Basically, most fabrics tend to drape better over a tight ass.

    LOL. That deserves a first-page entry in ‘Classic Poisonous Quotes of the 21st Century’. :-)

  • Arch Conservative

    Virginia, New Jersey, Massachuetts ….

    looks like Washington Republicans aren’t the only ones saying no to Obama and the Dems.

    Have a happy Thanksgiving Btone.

  • FitzBoodle

    Puzzling over why the republicans would think that accusing Obama of “socialism” would get any traction, while to all appearances Obama is actually a Stealth Republican, I finally concluded that the republican strategy is to warn minority people that the only entry to national politics is through the republican party.

    It’s not ideological, it’s party politics.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    The party of “No” extends much further than Washington. Here, they appear not to be allowed to read an article with a different point of view, unless it’s in lock-step with each-other.

    It’s like watching a little pack of dogs running around marking their territory.

    You should have a lot more exposure and many more intelligent comments by now.

    I’m glad Jon’s comment was the first one in this thread; it was civil.

    I want my articles back, so
    they can be published elsewhere.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    He will, Jeannie. I didn’t even realize this article was posted two days ago.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I agree Fitz, ideology has nothing to do with it. It’s all about the party.

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    You may be right Arch. But, be careful what you wish for. If the Reps regain control of Congress and ultimately the White House, I wonder how long it will take for people to start hanging them in effigy? A few months; a year, perhaps? Being on top is a precarious place to be.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I didn’t even know you were here.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m sure mine was thoroughly read way before Lisa could edit it. My fault for leaving it up there so long.

    Nothing like being prepared.

  • Dan

    “The tea-baggers are largely either poorly educated and/or poorly informed…”—Baritone

    Far from the truth. This slander has been exposed so often as to make the charge an exercise in pathetic futility. Surely we’re beyond that. One need only reflect that tea partiers are the ones who have the ability to feed, clothe, and house themselves. They only need government in the minimalist constitutionally sanctioned function.

    “Many still believe in “death panels” and the impending, untimely end to grandma…”

    Case in point. Progressive simpletons pivot between arguing that the notion of “death panels” is ridiculous, and arguing that health insurance companies already implement the strategy now. (which they do) Critics of the tea partiers should make up their minds which way they would like to argue. Claiming both sides exposes them as fools.

    “On the whole, they are mindless dupes”

    That term would be more reflective of anyone who voted in the moronic teleprompter interpreter–yes, he really does not know how to pronounce “corpsemen”–thinking that somehow this racially obsessed, small time community agitator could become Presidential.

    Fortunately, It looks as if reality is beginning to overtake the malignant media and their corrupt propaganda before much more damage is done. ACORN has been taken down despite their best efforts to conceal the scandal. Obama’s communist cronies are being exposed. (thanks to Glen Beck) And the tea party movement is expanding well into fertile “independent” territory.

    Probably the best role for the Republican party until the folly of allowing leftists to be in charge can be corrected is to be the party of no. Or the party of hell no.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Lots of venom there, Dan. You’ve surely become radicalized since you posted last.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You do know that this Dan is not Dan (Miller), don’t you, Rog?

    Indeed, it was the advent of Second Dan which prompted Original Dan to change his handle.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sure I do, Dreadful.

    The Second Advent, you said?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie,

    This article was just published this afternoon (Fri.) It seems to have picked up a little steam.

    My guess is that Dan is NOT an Obama acolyte, but, as I said, that’s just a guess.

    Actually, Jeannie, I wrote this as a comment to your post, but as I got into it, I decided that it could stand on its own as an article. So your article was the inspiration for this.

    Frankly, I find the scathing, self-righteous, condescending conservative crap tiresome. It was conservatives, dating at least back to Reagan, who have sniggered this country in the back side. It is conservatism that has lead to deregulation of the banks and commodity markets which put this country in the dumpster.

    I’m certainly not happy with the state of things under Obama. He and his people have screwed the pooch more than once during the past year, but much of their failure is due to Republican stonewalling and the spineless blue dog Dems who have proven to be DINOs (Democrats in name only,) as I predicted shortly after the 2006 elections.
    I saw then that a number of the Dems who had been elected to congress were of a truly conservative bent who would be trouble for the Party down the road.

    Right now, the most hated and mistrusted pols are conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans. Historically, the middle of the road was the place to be, but for the time being it is tantamount to a no-man’s land. For a pol to compromise is to hammer another nail in his or her own political coffin. We are in a “You are either for us, or you’re against us,” all or nothing mode. It seems no one is quite liberal enough or quite conservative enough to dodge criticism. It’s a stand-off between the extremes with no “de-militarized zone” between.

    Meanwhile Obama probably wonders what the fuck happened?

    Once again, I still contend that the main stream tea partiers are wackos.

    Obama can’t pronounce “corpsmen?” Well, let’s see, that’s 1 for Obama. And what was the last count for Georgie “Nuculer” Bush? You remember him don’t you? You know – “The Decider?”

    B

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    No is such a wonderful word. If only people had discovered it sooner.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Jeannie, that’s was quite an admission on Baritone’s part and I am glad for you.

    And I’m sorry that I haven’t given your article sufficient attention thus far because I was involved on another thread. But I promise to do better tomorrow.

    Good night.

  • Irene Wagner

    Posers! They don’t know how to say no like Dr. No knows how to say no.

  • Irene Wagner

    Dr. Dreadful, I didn’t know it was a Dan v2.0, thing. I thought, Dan(Miller)’s comments were flagged for spam because Akismet thought he was trying to sell beer as were Mark (v1.0)’s was trying to sell…health and beauty aids.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Dave, don’t you imagine that the tables could easily be turned? It the Dems manage to lose their congressional majority, couldn’t they be just as obstructionist as the Reps? Is it really in the interest of this country to effectively paralyze congress? Or are you one who believes that nothing is better than something? Are you so pleased with the status quo that you’d prefer nothing ever change?

    The Reps may well get just what they are after. But it may well come around and bite them in the ass just as hard. If this is how it comes down, how, where and when will it stop? What you are apparently reveling in now may turn out to be what you are wallowing in down the road. Be careful what you wish for. Conservative shit smells just as bad.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    BTW – ANYONE who gives ANY credence to ANYTHING Glen Beck says is BRAIN DEAD!

    B

  • pablo

    Baritone 15 said:

    “I’m certainly not happy with the state of things under Obama. He and his people have screwed the pooch more than once during the past year, but much of their failure is due to Republican stonewalling and the spineless blue dog Dems who have proven to be DINOs (Democrats in name only,) as I predicted shortly after the 2006 elections.”

    You also say Baritone:
    “Is it really in the interest of this country to effectively paralyze congress?”

    Unfortunately so called liberals of your ilk fail to understand how wonderful paralysis is in Washington. The founding fathers wanted it to be extremely difficult to enact legislation. I hope they remain paralyzed, since virtually every act that the congress has passed in the last ten years or so has been draconian in nature, and usurped my guaranteed rights under the constitution.

    When are you going to call for prosecution of torturers ole buddy? When are you going to demand the the Patriot Act, and the Military Commissions Act be overturned pal? Big brother can kiss my ass.

    Was it the blue dogs Baritone that promised to end signing statements? Was it the republicans Baritone that said we would pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan Baritone? Is it the blue dogs that are not prosecuting torturers Baritone? Was it the republicans that installed Geitner, Volker, Sumners and Bernanke Baritone?

    Obama does not need any help from the republicans in destroying our republic, he is doing that very well on his own.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Actually, Jeannie, I wrote this as a comment to your post, but as I got into it, I decided that it could stand on its own as an article. So your article was the inspiration for this.

    Thanks! You know, I was really let down here yesterday, but then, what the hell did I expect? In libraries, book stores, and on shelves in homes, books sit gathering dust, while waiting for someone to come along and pick them up, all across this country.

    So what if I didn’t set the world on fire yesterday, today is a new day!

    But Baritone? If you wrote this as a response to my article, then, please come over and write another one. I really need to know that someone here actually respects my thoughts…

    :] I have a brain!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Last night, I looked up another writer I used to read on this site.

    But, I belong here…

    :\ I am a blogcritic!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    It is so funny to see people responding to a post addressed to me. When I did that yesterday, I was painted to be some sort of emotional-train-wreck.

    I can see right through these games…ignore the article, talk way above the authors head, and above all, dis-credit the source!

    #15 will be responded to fully by me.

    Baritone,

    Even if I don’t write an article a day like many here on the left do in a desperate attempt to control the chatter.

    If I inspire you-an-actual-writer-to-write,then, my efforts are not in vain. “Not by a long shot!”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I want to post your #15 in my thread, Would this be OK with you?
    I’m betting that it is…:)

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Dan writes:

    “That term would be more reflective of anyone who voted in the moronic teleprompter interpreter–yes, he really does not know how to pronounce “corpsemen”–thinking that somehow this racially obsessed, small time community agitator could become Presidential.”

    What’s a “corpsemen?”

    Dan writes:

    “One need only reflect that tea partiers are the ones who have the ability to feed, clothe, and house themselves. They only need government in the minimalist constitutionally sanctioned function.”

    The older ones out there over 65 are most likely on Medicare and Social Security. What’s Paul Ryan (R) and the GOP’s plan for those folks?

    Rationing Medicare and Privatizing Social Security.

    Yeah, Dan…the same RATIONING of Medicare that Right Wing activist Republicans were screaming about during the Tea Party rallies. And Republicans can’t whine about bailing out Wall Street if in their next breath they’re willing to put Grandma’s Social Security on the Stock Market craps table.

    Feckless, shameless hypocrites ALL.

    –Cobra

  • Mark

    (Irene #19,…and all that I said was, “It’s not a cream, not an ointment.”)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The spineless blue dog Dems who have proven to be DINOs (Democrats in name only,) as I predicted shortly after the 2006 elections.
    I saw then that a number of the Dems who had been elected to congress were of a truly conservative bent who would be trouble for the Party down the road.

    I wrote an article last year that said this! In my own way..of course.

    But it was dismissed and practically laughed right out of this site, by an editor who shall remain nameless.

    He told me that, “No one wanted to listen to a neurotic housewife.” After I wrote that we had a new party called the Conservadems rising up that were really Republicans in sheep’s clothing.

    The way I wrote this article if I can remember correctly went like this.

    “You’ve heard of the conservadems haven’t you? They will be rolling out their political platform soon and Arlin Specter will be standing right on top of it!”

    I also took a few jabs at the media, and that was also not allowed… and they really need to be jabbed.

    :0 I am not giving up…ever…until God comes to take me home…then…maybe you can all forget me…if your lucky.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cobra,

    I need to hear everything you have to say.

    Yeah, Dan…the same RATIONING of Medicare that Right Wing activist Republicans were screaming about during the Tea Party rallies. And Republicans can’t whine about bailing out Wall Street if in their next breath they’re willing to put Grandma’s Social Security on the Stock Market craps table.

    This is the fresh air I’ve been ranting about.

    :] I can hear you breath…

  • Baronius

    Pablo – Good point about the benefits of paralysis.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    This is an excellent point!

    Frankly, I find the scathing, self-righteous, condescending conservative crap tiresome. It was conservatives, dating at least back to Reagan, who have sniggered this country in the back side. It is conservatism that has lead to deregulation of the banks and commodity markets which put this country in the dumpster.

    It is the Failed Ragenomics that has failed this country so miserably for the last thirty years in fact I wrote a comment two days ago that for all intents and purposes was shoved under the nearest rug. and then, they ran away…

    Here is an excerpt from it:

    “We have watched helplessly as corporations have locked step with each other in defense of their bottom-lines. I don’t know who’s brilliant idea it was to lay the full time employee off and then bring that same worker back as a part-timer.

    But, this idea was BRILLIANT!

    Now, the same worker no longer has any of the costly benefits afforded their full-time co-workers. No health-care, paid vacation, or 401K with monies also contributed to by the employer.

    Also #2 We have seen the quality of every product we buy, slip farther and farther down the scale.

    I absolutely refuse to buy any prepared food. If we can’t pronounce it, then, we don’t eat it, wear it, sit on it, and now drive it! It’s not allowed in our home.

    Stop replacing our world with SHIT!

    Sorry for this language but reading this
    thread, I know you can all handle it.

    So, then we come to the word game. Tax Tax Tax Tax Tax you have no trouble seeing the little people pay these.

    After all, the wealthier you are the more you actually need government subsidies, especially for that pesky environmental clean-up.

    So, let’s put away those out-dated failed Reaganomics that have failed so miserably.

    “For the last thirty years we have been waiting for the prosperity promised us, if we would just allow you to keep all of your tax money while we are taxed to death.”

    After all, you said you would share it…”

    :] Never try to hide things under the rugs, I am a really smart house-wife, I keep a very clean house.

  • pablo

    thank you Baronius

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glad to see that the eyes are on this thread.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Thank you ,sir, for addressing me here this morning. I really have a lot of respect for people that are able to swim up stream…

    ;]

  • Arch Conservative

    “You may be right Arch. But, be careful what you wish for.”

    Who said I was wishing for it Btone? Unlike the liberals and Democrats who pretty much saw Obama as the second coming during the campaign (remember hope and change) my panties don’t get moist over establishment Republicans taking office in lieu of establishment Dems. Technically speaking, if you suck about 2% less than the only other guy you’re the better option but you still represent some serious suckage.

    It’s truly sad that you, along with so many others are stuck on Dem vs. Rep. Your mind has been enslaved. You’ve been locked in a box by the mainstream media and refuse find your way out.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Carry on.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, Archie. It’s great to know you’re not a party hack but try to think for yourself.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Once again, we get true sanctimony from the likes of Pablo and Arch. They believe their cynicism makes them inherently superior, when all it actually does is make them not so much sad as contemptible.

    Arch. You know nothing about me. You dismiss everyone who does not buy into your cynical life view.

    You are absolutely wrong about my being “stuck on Dem vs Rep.” Your harping vitriole isn’t going to change the reality that Dem vs Rep is the only game in town. All of you of whatever stripe who believe that is going to change are far more naive than even the most ardent Obama lover. You and your efforts are tantamount to farting in wind. It makes a stink, but no one notices. Go fly a kite!

    And I know EXACTLY what the tea party is about. It is about being duped by the supposed conservative mavens whose only true interest is their own political and financial fortunes. It’s hard to see the reality when you have the flag draped over your eyes. Idiots!

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, B-man. I still think the article Jan linked to in comment #1 is worth reading. It’s eight-page long, but perhaps worth the trouble.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie,

    Take a breath. As much as Arch and the rest of us do battle here, we don’t suffer much from paranoia. No one here is out to get you. Certainly, what we write – especially here in the politics section, is going to be batted about mercilessly, but that’s what it’s all about. Just give back what you get.

    You are free to use anything I’ve written here if it will serve you. I have enough ego to want credit (or blame) when possible, but I don’t think any of us have this stuff copyrighted. Have at it.

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I’ve read a good deal about the tea baggers. As with anything involving a significant # of people, there is bound to be some diversity. Nevertheless, I still contend that the core of the tea party movement is based on mis-information and out right lies perpetrated against Obama and the Dems using unwarranted fear tactics that a goodly number of those folks have bought into. They stand up screaming, just as Pablo does about all their rights that have been taken away. Name one.

    It’s all just mass hysteria.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s definitely reactionary, B-man, and giving the notion of populism a bad name (because we’ve always associated it with progressive, forward-kind of thinking). I find the following passage quite telling:

    “While Coakley carried the city of Boston, the site of the original Tea Party, with nearly seventy per cent of the vote, Brown, notably, won the neighborhood of South Boston, where the sting of forced busing still lingers from the seventies.”

    Indeed, it does speak to the essentially conservative if not backward thinking characterizing the movement.

    You do make a point, of course, for there necessarily being a great deal of diversity when that many people are involved. I was surprised, however, that not all of them were hicks, that there were many educated and professional people in their midst.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Education in and of itself does not a progressive make. I have a relative by marriage who is quite well educated – he worked for 30+ years at Eli Lilly in R&D, has a pharmacy degree from Purdue, etc. Yet, he is a ditto head. He is not enough of an activist to take part in tea parties, but he buys into a good deal of their agenda, and listens to Rush avidly.

  • pablo

    Baritone 42

    MY rights that have been taken away, this will include Bush’s terms, as Obama has done nothing to overturn them.

    1. My right to have my telephone conversations private, as well as my location via gps.

    2. My right not to have the federal government sneaking and peaking into my abode when I am not there.

    3. My right not to be accosted by US Border Patrol well within the confines of the border areas, by stopping my vehicle and asking me personal questions.

    4. My right to not have the executive have the power to name me as an enemy combatant and strip me of my citizenship without due process of law or a conviction for treason.

    5. My right to have the books that I choose to check out of the library be confidential and nobody else’s business.

    6. My right to assemble and petition my government for a redress without a permit, or having to be in a free speech zone.

    7. My right not to have my assets seized by the government without being found guilty of a crime.

    8. My right to exit the country without being asked personal questions by US Immigration, as has happened to me in the past.

    These are just a few of my rights that have been usurped.

    Baritone anyone that is worth their salt regarding politics must be a cynic. The very nature of government is coercion, a fact that seems to be lost on you. As coercion is it primary role, its secondary one is corruption. After that comes the love of power.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Your politics are old school and quite antiquated. As you may or may not realize Baritone old pal, I grew up the quintessential liberal. I protested the following wars on the streets in San Francisco pal. Vietnam 1965, Iraq 1990, Iraq 2003. My dad was in Men for Peace, and supported all liberal causes, from civil rights, to the free speech movement in Berkelely California, and actively campaigning for various candidates for office.

    My dad by the way Baritone unlike me, still calls himself a liberal. He is however astute enough, and smart enough (he has been a member of MENSA for the last 30 years and still is at age 95) to know that the government is lying through its teeth about 9/11, and although he voted for Obama, he despises him for continuing the Bush era, as I told him he would.

    I have watched you with some amusement Baritone this past year or so, being a good foot soldier for Obama, as he was proverbally stabbing you in the back with all of his numerous campaign promises.

    Bush was a wolf, Obama is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I far prefer a wolf, as he makes no pretense on befriending you. As I said Baritone your old school and still have not come up to speed and be cynical enough to realize that you have been had.

    Where is your outrage over Obama killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan Baritone? Where is your criticism of him tapping your phone, and not prosecuting torturers, and continuing to hold people in jail without due process of law?

    Where is your outrage about him continuing to use signing statements to subvert the constitution? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Arch Conservative

    “Your harping vitriole isn’t going to change the reality that Dem vs Rep is the only game in town.”

    Therein lies the rub. It’s the only game in town because you and I and every other citizen let it be Btone. We’re complacent.

    Maybe you know that both the Repubs AND the Dems in DC are screwing us over every chance they get so that they may retain their power Btone. If you do I’d have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you’d say it from time to time.

    It’s not about people like Pablo or myself fulfilling some need to feel superior. It’s about not ignoring the obvious…which at this moment means not pretending as if one of the major parties gives even a scintalla more of a damn than the other about the good of this nation and it’s people.

    I don’t have all the answers and I know how hard it is to fight the status quo. It’s so damn hard that most just resign themselves to being abused by it and do they best they can for themselves. hell aside from talking about it on here I can’t really say that I’m doing too much to fight it myself. I vote for and support third parties but beyond that I’m no revolutionary. Not yet anyway. But at least on here, where none of us really have anything to lose I can be honest about it. Most of you can’t even do that and continue to argue the Dem vs. Rep

    Guess what. Bush sucked and now Obama sucks. They’re both very bad medicine for this nation.

    Latly…you don’t understand the Tea Party movement because you don’t want to understand it. You have a pre-concieved notion about it and it’s more than obvious that you’re only listening to voices who reinforce that notion when they discuss the movement. You heard a couple of people claiming to represent every last tea partier and you made up your mind.

    As I’ve said before……give me any political or social movement in this country…I’ll cherry pick a few of the nuttiest of nutjobs claiming to represent the entire movement and you will learn to hate and ridicule whatever the cause may be after focusing on these few individuals exclusively.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What does trouble me, Pablo, is the kind of polarization that’s becoming a permanent feature of our society. The ultimate goal always is and ought to be to reach as much common ground as possible and build from there. Understandably, it’s a painstaking process – everyone is at a different level of their development and savvy, and we can’t just bring everyone into the common fold en masse or in any wholesale manner (supposing, also that it would be desirable for each and every individual to think exactly alike, like a society of ants). So it seems we must do so in a retail fashion, one individual at the time.

    But what I see in the course of many of our confrontations here on BC is that we’re only successful creating greater animosity rather than building bridges.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    No matter how I may appear, I am not suffering from paranoia.

    If you noticed the little copyright sign in my blog. I posted it there after I discovered that all my political essays were being lifted right off my blog by a company housed by host-gator. This phishing was happening to the point where one morning when I clicked on a link connected to my site I discovered all of my articles word for word without my name on them giving reference to where they originated in a conservative political web-site that was gathering apposing points of view for the purpose of rebuttals. So, I looked up on word press the correct procedure to use in-order to stop this:

    Here are the appropriate steps that you may take to file a DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) notice, should you determine that any of your content has been stolen or used in an unauthorized manner:

    I took these steps.

    but it was not until after I finally eliminated the political category from my blog, that they stopped.

    I know I should remove that sign, but it’s sort of like a beware-of-the-dog sign..it works.

    Now, you are absolutely correct when you tell me to breath, but do not let these individuals paint me as a reactionary fool.

    They are playing a game with everyone around them, and I do suspect that there are paid-commenters at this site.

    :] again, thank you Baritone.

  • pablo

    47 Roger

    Your point is well taken Roger. However for me personally on this site, with very very very few exceptions I was never the first one to throw the first stone. In Baritone’s case he tossed first, and thanks to the miracle of googling I would have no problem proving that should push come to shove.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • pablo

    Also Roger, I am in a particularly lonesome corner on this site. As I challenge the left as well as the right frequently I have little to no advocates. Nalle has the right, Baritone on the left. I find them equally odious.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Reminds me of the ole refrain, Pablo

    Jokers on the right of me,
    Jokers on the left,
    Here I am, stuck in the middle with you

    Well, we should all try to be civil – I suppose that’s the first step.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Stealers Wheel would be disappointed, you clown.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, didn’t bother to look it up. But by all means, let’s bring in the clowns.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I don’t know Pablo, respect has to be earned. You’ve done little in that regard. You may be the most reactionary conspiracy job on BC.

    Arch – my honesty is hardly in question. All I see is that if I don’t agree with you or Nalle or Obnox or Pablo and others, I’m not being honest – that the ONLY honest course is to fall in line behind you in lock step. You have made it clear on this thread and others that to disagree with you is tantamount to either treason or just stupidity.

    I am very aware of how limited our ability to affect things in main stream party politics is. But third party efforts have been and largely continue to be totally ineffectual, and often wind up having unintended consequences.

    What you seem to support is a contradictory dichotomy. On the one hand you and others prefer that nothing be accomplished in congress, and on the other that wholesale changes be made which frankly would be cataclysmic.

    I do not look upon tea baggers as some kind of sacred cow. They are just as splintered and ineffectual as most other such movements. It’s always the case. Egos and posturing and jostling for power and recognition abound. Now, some have figured they can make a buck on it.

    It is true that the design of our government is such that it is very difficult to institute significant change, which is overall a good thing. But as with all things, there are those who have learned to play the system for their own ends. I’m not so dumb as to believe that Dems are not such players. But at this point, it is largely the Reps who stand in the way of anything and everything to the point of paralysis.

    And Pablo, you bitch about your supposed lost freedoms, but I bet you’d also bitch if you fell victim to some kind of terrorism (assuming you survived.) It’s very hard to have it both ways. Why don’t you go have a chat with Osama and his cohorts to see if they might tone down the rhetoric a bit.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    B

  • Arch Conservative

    As Matthew pointed out…….

    It’s

    Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
    Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

    I think we all want to be on the right side of things and it’s increasingly more complicated these days to determine exactly which is the right side of an issue.

    The quest for truth is an almost impossibly daunting task.

    But given the events of the last 40-50 years I think we can all agree (because it’s painfully obvious) that the collusion of the state and private enterprise has done far more harm than good to the American people. Isn’t that the classical definition of fascism…………the union of government and business that seeks to erode the freedoms and liberties of a people by concentrating power among an elite few.

    A gun in your face may be pretty scary but is a big brother and his friend the international banker whiddling away at your personal earnings and savings every day any less scary when you really thnk about it?

    Who needs violence when you can pretty much take everything a man has and do in it in a way so that he does no become alarmed or realize what’s being done until it’s too late. Some may call me crazy but that is exactly what’s happening to this country.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie,

    Well if you’re not paranoid, that’s good.

    I have a blogger friend who has had her entire blog – title and all – stolen and republished under another URL. She is also with Word Press. She has made similar efforts as you describe regarding notification of copyrights. However, I don’t know how much actual legal weight this carries. I suppose, as you suggest, it may discourage some, but I don’t know.

    I have 2 blogs and frankly don’t know if ANY of my stuff has ever been stolen. Maybe, maybe not. In my entire life I’ve earned a total of $300. writing – that for an article in, of all things, a satellite TV magazine. I have no illusions. No one is likely to pay me for anything I scribble down. I’m just an opinionated old fart.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Archie,

    You are beginning to sound like I used to barely six months ago.

    Do you realize the change in your thinking?

  • Arch Conservative

    “But at this point, it is largely the Reps who stand in the way of anything and everything to the point of paralysis.”

    So if the Reps just agreed to everything the Dems propose we’d all be living in Shan gri la?

    That’s crap. If the Dems had any balls they’d realize that they had the power to do whatever they wanted and what they want to do is the same thing the GOP actually had the balls to do when they were in power………..take as much money from the American people and throw it straight down the crapper.

    The GOP likes to steal money from us to fund wars. The Dems like to steal money so they can give it to corrupt unions and illegal aliens. Either way we’re all getting bent over.

    But even the title of this article shows that you’d rather cling to some illusory differences. To suggest that having one party in charge as to opposed to the other will produce some very meaningful and positive difference in the lives of the citizens’ of this nation in the face of the mountains of evidence to the contrary is foolishness.

    Washington DC is nothing but a giant shit sandwich any way you look at it Btone and we’re all forced to keep on biting.

    Say it with me………

    “This tastes like shit!”

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    “So if the Reps just agreed to everything the Dems propose we’d all be living in Shan gri la?”

    Hardly. But this obstruction is unprecedented. It’s “all or nothing” bullshit. This is not governance. It is blatant party politics, all at our expense.

    Yes, I agree there is a great deal of shit coming out of DC, but it ain’t ALL shit. While I harbour my own share of cynicism, I don’t believe that all pols are evil. I don’t believe Obama is evil. I don’t believe Bush is evil. I don’t believe Cheney is, uh, well, yeah, he IS evil. It is, rather a system that most of them enter that basically eats politicians for lunch.

    Some rise above it to one degree or other. Some manage to actually accomplish some good.

    But what you are railing against is much bigger than American party politics. The rich and powerful have always called the shots. It’s never not been so. Not in this country, not anywhere.

    I just believe that the best way to foster change, incremental as it may be, is from within – chip away.

    People rag at Obama and his “hope and change” campaign. But what candidate at any level did NOT talk about hope and change? Every pol has this grand illusion that he or she is going to go to Washington and shake things up. Few actually do so. Again, the best just manage to chip away.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    In RE. #56,

    Please tell your friend at wordpress to do what I did.

    In addition to writing a DMCA ,I also looked at all the advertisers on the site that had stolen my writings. One by one, I called them on the phone. I asked them if they were aware that their products were being displayed next to my stolen material. After a week or so, I was notified by host gator that the site had dismantled itself.

    I also removed my political writings because of the amount of spam they were generating!

    As you can probably see by now.

    ;] I don’t have an important voice, but it’s loud and annoying…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Do you Tweet?

    I would like to do some free advertising for you, if I may.

    I would just continue to send the url to your article here at BC.

    @ MSNBC, @ CNN,@ ED, MADDOW, etc.etc. after I your url I write, “A good read!”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    You know what ?

    I want to be girl poet, so I can tell it like it is…

    :] I’ll see ya later.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I established a twitter account so that I could access more of cellpoems, but, no, I don’t actually tweet.

    BTW – cellpoems is my younger son’s site. He is a poet himself and has started the cellpoems site to promote – what else? – poetry. He’s gotten submissions from Billy Collins, the former US Poet Laureate, Chris Wiman, the editor of Poetry Magazine among others. It’s pretty neat.

    I’ll have to take a moment to figure out what my Twitter account name is. I don’t remember.

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Yeah, that is a neat piece. The girl who wrote that is a friend of my son and a contributing editor of sorts.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • Baronius

    “But this obstruction is unprecedented.”

    The Democrats had the presidency, the House, and 60 votes in the Senate for about a year. The only obstruction that the Republicans could offer was making you step over their dead body. You want Guantanamo closed, it’s closed. You want nationalized health care, it’s done. The only thing you’d have to cross the aisle for would be a Constitutional amendment.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Listen to Baritone,

    I just believe that the best way to foster change, incremental as it may be, is from within – chip away.

    He deserves your respect.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    We won’t see the changes that we fight for tonight and every day forward, this fight is for our children and their children…

    nite B

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Let’s face reality here, folks. It doesn’t matter which party is in “control” inside the Rotunda. The obstructionist behavior of the GOP is nothing new, and Democrats are equally as guilty. The rank and file members of Congress step in line under orders from their “whips” and leadership. And to whom do the whips and leadership report? Go to the Federal Elections Commission and look up the information for yourselves.

    At present the parties are throwing out smoke bombs in the name of family values, the economy and homeland security. So, I think we should start vboting based upon those buzz words:

    Family Values – Any member of Congress who has served more than 12 years in office needs to go home. We’ve taken up enough of their time away from their families. They’ve done their work, let them return to the places from which they came and spend time practicing that which they shove down our throats.

    The Economy – Things are improving but at a snail’s pace. Regulatory reform is bogged down in the typical back room politicking that’s been going on for years. The most effective mechanism we have to create real economic reform is to elect politicians who are committed to making change beginning with campaign finance reform. The very people who financed Barack Obama’s meteoric rise to the Oval Office are the ones taking him down, i.e. Wall Street.

    Homeland Security – It all begins in our respective back yards, folks. Defense contractors would have us believe that investing our tax dollars into their industry keeps America safe. I believe preserving our right to bear arms keeps us safer. And if a terrorist or two gets through, we prosecute and kill them, period. We’re pretty quick at putting Americans to death, i.e. John Lee Malvo and Timothy McVeigh. Let’s be just as swift.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    “…60 votes in the Senate for about a year.”

    As you well know, that’s not quite true, is it? They had 59 Dem votes and then there was Joe Lieberman. Then, of those 59 were however many blue dogs there are. Nothing in Washington politics is easy.

    B

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    I disagree, Baritone. There is one thing that is quite easy in Washington politics — the transfer of funds from special interests to campaign war chests.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    The comments editor chose to remove my “personal attack” on Pablo. It was truly heinous. I simply pointed out the he is not my “pal.” Pretty odious stuff, no?

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    BTW – Jeannie, I saw Shane recite his poem last evening during the opening ceremonies in Vancouver. Pretty good stuff.

    B

  • zingzing

    jan 5: “Boehner Endorses C-SPAN’s Request for Public Health Care Negotiations, saying ‘Hard-working families won’t stand for having the future of their health care decided behind closed doors,’ and calling them ‘secret deliberations.’ ”

    feb 10: “Boehner criticizes the President for televising the bipartisan health care summit, asking “is this a political event or is this going to be a real conversation?”

    no comment is really necessary, but how do people put up with this shit? if someone can defend this guy, please, make my day.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Boehner is the poster boy for this article.

    B

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baritone,

    I have enough ego to want credit (or blame) when possible, but I don’t think any of us have this stuff copyrighted.

    Just a technical point for you to consider. Blogcritics demands first rights on material you submit to the magazine – in other words, they get to publish it first. That is what that “exclusivity” button is all about when you write an article here. But the copyright to the work always remains with you – unless you sell it to a publisher or someone else. In other words, all 130 odd articles I’ve written here all have MY copyright, and all the articles you’ve written here have YOUR copyright. Given that we generally give each other credit (or blame) for the articles we write here, copyright is not being infringed at all. If I copy what you have written in an article here and have not given you credit, then I’ve infringed your copyright.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Thankfully for our DVR, my husband and I watched the opening ceremony yesterday afternoon.

    When I saw Shane Koyczan and listened to his slam-poem , he gave me the energy I need to continue trying to speak up against all the ignorance and injustice that persistently-taints this country.

    And that little Poet Girl helped also…that was so sweet! and definitely true!

    No, I’m not just drinking Obama juice here B…it is the culmination of all our voices that will make a diference…someday.

    :0 If you’d come over to my thread you could listen to Shane’s other poem titled, “This is my voice.” I’m going to look up cellpoems on Twitter and follow your son!The name I use there is Rodiogal :]

    Great…B’s thinking, now she is going to annoy both of us!

  • Dan

    “Indeed, it was the advent of Second Dan which prompted Original Dan to change his handle.”—Dr. Dreadful

    Actually I am original Dan. The more prolific Dan (Miller) came much later.

    “BTW – ANYONE who gives ANY credence to ANYTHING Glen Beck says is BRAIN DEAD!”—Baritone

    Coincidently, that is the same thing numbnutted kooks say!

    Progressivism is not enlightened forward thinking. It’s old. It is slavery. That’s why liberal politicians, and their media follow Saul Alinsky’s rules for radicals. They intend to trick, disguise, ridicule, and obscure the things they need to in order to overturn the most progressive humanitarian system of government ever devised.

    If you are not in their inner circle where the power is being usurped from the people, you are a fool. If you are on a lower rung of that inner circle your usefulness will become less vital.

    These are the things tea partiers are increasingly coming to understand. Small government is enlightened forward thinking.

    Even ‘Obama girl’ is coming around.

  • zingzing

    dan: “These are the things tea partiers are increasingly coming to understand.”

    vague conspiracy theories? has this inner circle of liberal politicians that has usurped power from the people only put it all together for the last year? or am i missing something? was bush/cheney part of your theory as well? how far back does this thing stretch? do you even know? when did they let their presence become known to you and why? surely, if they can secretly control the government, they can secretly control their secret image, right?

    “They intend to trick, disguise, ridicule, and obscure the things they need to in order to overturn the most progressive humanitarian system of government ever devised.”

    i can understand why you might think some politicians would want to do this. but why the media? what would they gain? certainly, the overturning of the government (which seems to be what you “tea partiers” are after in a way) would sell some ad space, but that’s fleeting at best. you have to have a reason for doing something like this. so what does the media gain?

    “Small government is enlightened forward thinking.”

    the amount of problems that this country is facing is staggering, and they stem from many different sources, not all of which we can control. and your only answer seems to be “just make the government smaller.” everyone is for a more efficient government. but it’s not an instant answer to our nation’s problems.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You surely must realize, Dan, that the tone of your comments precludes the possibility of any meaningful interchange. You seem to be moved by a kind of hatred and Baritone, on the other hand, by his equally unshakable beliefs. And such being the case, never the twain shall meet.

    Which makes me wonder why either of you bother posting here given there isn’t even a possibility of finding a common ground. It can’t be because you want to hear yourself talk, tell me I’m wrong.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The concept of “small government” has become a scoundrel’s refuge, a buzzword, a catchall phrase to include all of the person’s discontents, and a substitute for pretending that one has a solution.

    It’s like telling yourself I know what’s wrong and how to fix things whereas in fact you’re clueless.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zing –

    jan 5: “Boehner Endorses C-SPAN’s Request for Public Health Care Negotiations, saying ‘Hard-working families won’t stand for having the future of their health care decided behind closed doors,’ and calling them ‘secret deliberations.’ ”

    feb 10: “Boehner criticizes the President for televising the bipartisan health care summit, asking “is this a political event or is this going to be a real conversation?”

    no comment is really necessary, but how do people put up with this shit? if someone can defend this guy, please, make my day.

    Juxtapose this hypocrisy with how you pointed that while Arch was holding up some conservative for not allowing bad stuff to be said about Ted Kennedy on the day he died, Arch himself said some pretty hateful stuff.

    Add that to the positions in Congress that Republicans have supported but now oppose as a bloc, and to the bills in Congress that the Republicans have even co-sponsored but now oppose as a bloc.

    I’ve thought long and hard about why conservatives would accept such blatant hypocrisy among themselves, and I think I’ve finally come to an answer: the end justifies the means.

    That’s why they are not afraid to commit the felonies of election fraud and voter fraud but howl in rage that ACORN committed the misdemeanor of voter registration fraud. That’s why they are okay with suddenly becoming so fiscally conservative (“Obama’s driving us to financial oblivion!”) while for twenty years they drove us trillions and trillions of dollars into debt. That’s why they claim they’re the party of ‘family values’ and ‘integrity’ when for the past thirty years Republicans have nearly always been the party whose members are indicted or embroiled in huge scandals (and YES, I can prove this).

    Their collective viewpoint also ‘justifies’ the use of torture.

    Again, to the Republicans “The end justifies the means.” That end is POWER – their political tools and positions are the means to that power. Because they do it themselves, they expect that such is the same motive for all others.

    I’ll be the first to point out that Democrats and the liberals do not have the cleanest of hands – we’ve got a few problem children on our side, and power is indeed the most addicting drug, the most powerful aphrodisiac – but it’s just as I’ve challenged Dave before: show me a single political scandal or set of scandals since Nixon (with the possible exception of hetero sex scandals) where the Republicans haven’t done the same thing to a worse degree.

    He can’t. He knows history well enough to not even try.

    But such blatant hypocrisy on a grand scale matters not at all to the Republicans and the conservatives – their hypocritical positions are simply means to the end that is power.

    That, Zing, is why it doesn’t bother the BC conservatives when we point out hypocrisy by them or their politicians. It’s not that big a deal to them, and they don’t see why it’s a big deal to us! After all, it’s merely a means to an end, right?

    I hope this helps in understanding part of what makes modern-day conservatives the way they are.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan,

    Even ‘Obama girl’ is coming around.

    Don’t put words in my mouth or try to call me your cute little name.

    If all of you critics really possessed any maturity you would not only read my article and comments on these threads, but, you would also engage with me as a decent human being..we are all, really tired of these games…

    :[ books don’t make you smart unless you can learn from them!

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I think Glenn has a valid point. While, as I’ve stated, ideology is NOT the driving force in all this obstruction, Republicans are using ideology to sell there actions (or inactions) to the public claiming that their position, their cause, is so “right” that any means is in fact justified by the end. It simply doesn’t matter that they are disabling government to the point of paralysis because those in power are bad people; that the agenda of those in power is fiscally irresponsible, or socialistic, or fascistic, or however they choose to characterize it, and in that, ANY means to thwart their efforts is, therefore, justified. Further, they want all to believe that once they wrest power from the evildoers, all will be well in their trusted hands.

    People – voters – have very short memories. Apparently gone are memories of the absolute cluster fuck the Reps have brought onto this country since Reagan.

    B

  • zingzing

    jeannie–unless i’m mistaken, “obama girl” refers to Amber Lee Ettinger, not you.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Juxtapose this hypocrisy with how you pointed that while Arch was holding up some conservative for not allowing bad stuff to be said about Ted Kennedy on the day he died, Arch himself said some pretty hateful stuff.”

    I don’t remember saying anything particularly harsh about Kennedy on the day of his death. George Tiller maybe, he was an evil bastard who I’m sure is rotting in hell as we speak, but I think I was pretty restrained the day Senator Swimmer died.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    zing,

    are you sure? Then…never mind!

    :] we all make mistakes, don’t we?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ruvy,

    I’m sure what you recounted is accurate. In practical terms,though, it is unlikely that many bloggers of whatever ilk are in a position to enforce their copyrights.

    What Jeannie was asking to copy was one of my comments on this thread. I would think our comments would have even less in the way of “copyright” juice. But, I’m no lawyer, so…

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    dan,

    What a crock…that party is imploding on itself as I type this comment.

    ;0 I like Obama, he keeps you all on your toes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well yes, you may have, Archie – especially in your exchanges with Silas. But the point is that your views are transforming so you no longer readily recognize the old you.

    But that’s not hypocrisy by any stretch, and to characterize you so is unfair. You’ve always been a straight shooter, now and then.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I really have thought of trying to make money for my efforts, but how?

    Most writers are all writing for free on the net, at least here…aren’t they?

  • zingzing

    archie, maybe you did take the actual day off. still, in the days before, you were on your “i’m glad he’s going to die of brain cancer” thing, and in the days after you were on your “no one cares” thing. not your best hour.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, being respectful for a day is better than nothing.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I asked to copy or post your material out of respect for you,and I always give clear direction to who wrote it, whenever I post.

    Which brings me to this. “I would like to post your article to my other social networking site.” my family would enjoy reading your work.

    :]Someone right here now, once lifted my article off of these pages word for word without asking…I’ll have to check out what’s new.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Roger,

    I don’t find many of the voices here having much of a compromising timber. Most of us are entrenched in our respective positions.

    I think in the end most of want pretty much the same thing: The opportunity to live a decent life freely, in relative comfort, security and good health. However, we all have different notions as to how to achieve and maintain that state for the largest number possible.

    There is certainly a deep divide between our various philosophies, perhaps deeper than at any time since our Civil War. Some of us are more strident than others, and that makes for some fairly gritty debates. I don’t revel in it, actually I find it sad. Nevertheless, I feel it necessary to state my case and stick to my guns (metaphorically) in defending it as apparently others here do as well.

    Actually, I agree with Arch in his assertion that this is one of the few places we can truly speak our minds and not suffer repurcussions for it. Most of us could not do this at the workplace or at family gatherings, unless we take pleasure in open conflict and ostracism. As they say, one should not discuss sex or politics amongst polite company. That may seem wishy washy, but it has a strong kernel of truth to it.

    BC gives each of us an outlet that most others don’t have. I work pretty much by myself, so the workplace is not an issue, but I virtually never discuss my political views with family outside of one or two who more or less share my positions. Even then, I keep it fairly close to the vest.

    While I may disagree with many of them politically, in the end, I like most of my family and have no desire to create a rift between that would have the effect of either preventing one or more of us to attend family functions, and/or to create a tension that would render such functions unpleasant.

    I think most of us are doing exactly what the Politics section of BC intended. It all may be tantamount to farting in the wind, but at least we manage to get the gas out of our systems. Better here than elsewhere.

    B

  • Arch Conservative

    I really don’t remember claiming to be glad he was dying of brain cancer zing.

    I went back and checked.

    Kennedy died 8/25

    In an article by Christine Lakatos on on 8/29 someone claimed Kennedy was a bi-partisan statesman and I responded by quoting the speech Ted Kennedy gave in opposing Robert Bourke’s Supreme Court nomination in which he engaged in gutter politics and racial demagogurey.

    Then there was another article on the 30th by Capital Idea in which I said that outside of MA Kennedy really wasn’t that big of a deal and it was ridiculous to use his death as an excuse to force a government health care bill on the entire population.

    But I didn’t see anything particularly harsh.

    If you cannot go back and find where I said such horrible things as “I’m glad he’s dying of brain cancer,” may I suggest you stuff a sock in it zing?

  • Arch Conservative

    “I think most of us are doing exactly what the Politics section of BC intended. It all may be tantamount to farting in the wind, but at least we manage to get the gas out of our systems. Better here than elsewhere.”

    Damn skippy Btone. For once you said something that makes sense.

    Who knows how some of us would express our frustrations out there in the real world if it were not for the safety valve that is BC.

    It’s downright scary.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie,

    You certainly may do so, if you wish.

    As to making money, that’s a tough gig. There is a writer’s site – Helium – which will actually pay for written work, but it comes down to about 3 bucks a page – not something that would set you to calling your investment broker.

    I’m sure there are others – some contributors here may know of some paying outlets. Other than Eric and his staff, I don’t believe anyone gets so much as a farthing for their work here. Dave, Clav and the other editors get nothing as far as I know. I was invited to be an editor a couple of years ago, but ultimately declined, not because of money issues, but rather owing to time considerations. I didn’t feel confident that I could give the job the time it deserves without compromising other things – like my job. I’m not particularly good at juggling things around. Others, obviously do much better at that than I.

    At “cellpoems” as far as I know, my son hasn’t posted any of his own work there, although I could be wrong. It’s hard to keep up. He is to be published in a couple of literary journals in the coming weeks/months, but I’m not sure exactly when. One of those publications is the “Denver Quarterly” – I’m sure most everyone has multiple issues of that lying around on their coffee tables :} – but I don’t think even my son knows when the 2 poems they selected will appear in print. As to money – I think he’s getting something like $20 for each poem. Again, not something to build a retirement plan on.

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Awww, garsh. Now I’m embarrassed. Shucks…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Wow – just to express our frustrations? OK!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Arch,

    So, why is acting like a miserable cantankerous ass to people here OK? and At home we aren’t the same people?

    It all goes back to who hides behind their names, and, who admitts to who they really are…why should any trust be built among any of us…I can see who B is. He’s not hiding.

    B since these children are most likely shunning me, maybe you could answer my question.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Arch,

    So, why is acting like a miserable cantankerous ass to people here OK? and At home we aren’t the same people?

    It all goes back to who hides behind their names, and, who admitts to who they really are…why should any trust be built among any of us…I can see who B is. He’s not hiding.

    B since these children are most likely shunning me, maybe you could answer my question.

  • pablo

    Baritone 94

    “I think in the end most of want pretty much the same thing: The opportunity to live a decent life freely, in relative comfort, security and good health”

    No mention of freedom, therein lies the difference between us Baritone. I also want a life wherein my tax dollars and my country don’t go around bombing and torturing other human beings. Also not engaging in false flag operations would be nice too. :)

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie,

    Well, part of it is just as I described in my comment to Roger. We are venting. It’s not always pretty, and it’s not always civil. In this instance, we are NOT flesh and blood to each other. We are disembodied words.

    Sadly we all succumb to name calling from time to time – myself included. Democracy is not often polite.

    I’d say yes to Roger, that this does serve to “express our frustrations.” On a personal level, I think that’s a good thing as, apparently does Arch.

    But, while most of us seem to be more or less intransigent, we do on rare occasions find common ground, and at the least, we discover what others are thinking. There is, once in a while, some give and take.

    Back to what it does for us – or at least for me – on a personal level, is help us learn how to articulate our beliefs, how best to present our positions. I’d guess we’ve all become better debaters, better writers, and perhaps even better thinkers via our writing AND reading here at BC, and presumably elsewhere.

    There is no better way in which to organize one’s thoughts and feelings than through writing and open debate. I’ve been caught here with my metaphorical pants down more than once as, I believe, most of us have here at some time or another. While it may be embarrassing, if used as a learning experience, it should make us more careful, more circumspect and more astute in our future efforts. It doesn’t always happen that way, but hopefully, at least some of the time.

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Pablo,

    Hmmm. What did I actually write? “The opportunity to live a decent life freely, in relative comfort, security and good health”

    Well, maybe you just didn’t like the particular word form I used.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Thank you B

    I don’t want to keep asking you to answer for them, eventually they will own-up to themselves on their own.

    I think it is human-nature to see the shortcomings of others when they actually have been present in ourselves the whole time…myself included, of course.

    You, are one of the few here that doesn’t complain about my grammar.

    :] Poet-Girl now has to go clean this
    house…what a mess…this darn computer!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What about communications, or cementing relationships based on shared understandings between inquiring minds? What about winning people in the cause for truth and fairness and justice?

    It’s preposterous to say that blogging makes any kind of difference, just as it’s preposterous to assume that a print journalist can. But public opinion gets form nonetheless, imperceptibly perhaps but it’s always in a state of flux. And it never gets formed in any wholesale manner but only one individual at a time – like a chain reaction. And what you can’t accomplish on BC, perhaps you can take with you and apply it in the world at large.

    Anyways, those are other reasons.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    BTW – The use of “screen” names here goes back a ways. Back when I signed on, it was pretty common that one did not use his or her own name. Now it seems rather silly. However, if I or anyone here decided to change to our real names or some other identifier, it would, I’m told create waves throughout our publishing history here, and the last thing I want to do is make waves. :)

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Arch Conservative writes:

    “In an article by Christine Lakatos on on 8/29 someone claimed Kennedy was a bi-partisan statesman and I responded by quoting the speech Ted Kennedy gave in opposing Robert Bourke’s Supreme Court nomination in which he engaged in gutter politics and racial demagogurey.”

    …based on Robert Bork’s RECORD, STATEMENTS and ARGUMENTS.

    “Constitutional law professor Herman Schwartz will write in 2004, “Bork condemned the Fourteenth Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause decisions outlawing the poll tax (to him it was just ‘a very small tax’), the decision establishing the one-person, one-vote principle, abolishing school segregation in the District of Columbia, barring courts from enforcing racially restrictive housing covenants, preventing a state from sterilizing certain criminals or interfering with the right to travel, and prohibiting discrimination against out-of-wedlock children…. Bork’s hostility to governmental action on behalf of minorities did not stop with his critique of court action. In 1963 he criticized a section of the proposed Civil Rights Act of 1964 that required white businesses to serve blacks as resting on a principle of ‘unsurpassed ugliness.’”

    That’s Robert Bork, Arch. If you AGREE with Bork on these matters, then I know all I need to know about where you’re coming from, and what viewpoint you represent.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra
  • Zedd

    I think we need to change it from “NO” to “Nothing”.

    Where are the SOLUTIONS???? Where have they been for 20yrs?

    We all know, you hate big government, you love families, you are for state’s rights, and you love the Lord, the flag, off shore drilling and the troops.

    I’m paying $5000 a year for three very healthy individuals in health insurance and still have a hefty deductable. The simplest things that can be dignosed by googling are not whe we do go to the doctor because of the EXISTING red tape in this free market driven healthcare system. What is solution.“NO”, Dave is not it.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Baritone, many BC writers have changed their author names over time without mishap. As a commenter, you are free to change it without any worries at all if you want to. No biggie.

  • Zedd

    Thats it, The Party of Nothing.

    Remember Zedd said it first!!

    Baritone,

    I think we rarely ever discuss ideology. I think what we do often is express frustrations about the lack of rational discourse. I haven’t read a lucid debate on ideology in quite some time. I believe the last time was several years back when we were discussing the merits of foriegn aid or something like that. People brought stats and really good arguments to the fore.

    Once you stir folks like the Tea Baggers and all of the other fad Republican movements of the past 20yrs (Right to Lifers, family values bunch, The Moral Majority, gun enthusiasts, Birthers, etc) into the pot, I mean really, whats to discuss.

    Another thought, do they have an ideology? I mean something real? I doubt if any Republicans on BC with the exception of Pablo perhaps, can clearly articulate what they stand for, and why. And his opinions are informed by experiences that are from outside of this country (same with Clav). Most people seem to just feel Republican or Conservative. They like soldiers and states (I guess… whatever that means) so they feel right. No ideology to be found.

    I’m hoping someone proves me wrong.

  • zingzing

    pablo: “No mention of freedom, therein lies the difference between us Baritone.”

    some of us don’t think it’s necessary to throw the term around so much that it loses all meaning and we can’t even recognize it when we see it. as in baritone’s “freely.” meh.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Except that Pablo (#112) is not a republican (in any ordinary sense).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Quite right, zing, because its usage from 1776 – especially at the hands of the Limbaughs and the Becks and the Hannity’s, not to mention many denizens on BC – no longer applies.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Zedd,

    You are probably right about ideology. Perhaps we wind up discussing the manifestations or results of ideology, but not the ideologies which caused or directed them?

    Among us political BCers Dave and perhaps Glenn C come up with more facts and figures than most of the rest of us. But that can be a mine field as it is quite easy to cherry pick what works to support a particular argument. In almost every case one set of data can be countered by another ad nauseam.

    Of course facts and figures are often, just as I said above, a recounting of results, not a delineation of ideas.

    B

  • Arch Conservative

    Being pro-life is a fad Zedd?

    What about the “fad movements” on the left?

    Couldn’t bring yourself to rattle off a list of those?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    As a movement – yes Pro-Lifers represent a fad.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Of course facts and figures are often, just as I said above, a recounting of results, not a delineation of ideas.”

    Precisely. Getting ideas of some folk, ideas which support their interpretation of “facts,” is like pulling teeth.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m not sure if “fad” is the right word. Fads tend to be temporary and rather fleeting. How long now has it been around? Fifty years and counting?

    I’d rather think of it as a dying remnant – slowly but surely. Cult may be a better term.

  • Arch Conservative

    Does that make pro-choice a fad also Btone?

    The biggest fad I see going right now is supporting our current stooge in cheif. Despite all the evidence that he ha sno intention of ever doing anything remotely helpful to this nation there are many who still support him. It’s downright bizarre.

  • zingzing

    “Despite all the evidence that he ha sno intention of ever doing anything remotely helpful to this nation there are many who still support him.”

    what evidence is that?

  • Zedd

    Arch,

    Pro-choice is a law. I’d say the hoopla over pro-life has died down.

    When I listed those fads, I was talking about ideas that have galvanized the public to go vote (aka get those who want power what they want).

  • Baronius

    Bar, I still don’t know how the Republicans obstructed the Democratic Senate from working with the Democratic House to legislate the Democratic president’s agenda. Unless you think that the CBO and OMB…no, wait, they’re Democratic too. Or the Speaker’s office….OK, maybe ghosts did it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The Republicans again being called to stand on principal.

    So, nothing can get done anywhere , if this isn’t obstructionism, then what is it?

  • Zedd

    Baronious,

    @124

    Good point.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Exactly. What kind of majorities could possibly be hoped for other than what obtains in the present?

    This is something to think about.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Bar – Are you just pretending not to know what took place? Are you pretending not to know of the 60 vote Senate “majority?” Beyond that, what’s your point? Is this just good ole Baronius gettin his digs in?
    Okay, great, you win.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But the 60 vote Senate majority, Baritone, is only filibuster-proof. The Senate version of the healthcare bill can still pass by the ratification process. What I do see, instead, is lack of political will – courage for short (yes, even on the part of the Democrats).

    Which again brings me back to the question of leadership – I know, we’ve been through this before. But let’s talk Senate leadership, for a change.

    Point one: it’s hard for me to believe that every single Republican Senator out of the 41 total is corrupt;

    Point two: I bet you that if the Dems had someone as the good old LBJ for a Majority Whip, we wouldn’t be at the standstill that we are.

    So you tell me, please, which is true. What the fuck is really going on, because I’m at a loss here.

  • Zedd

    They are out of touch and they don’t care.

    We are demonstrating to them that we are stupid because we are not booting them out. Cant blame THEM.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If that’s the case, Zedd, then what you’re saying is unprecedented in American politics.

    I’m not convinced quite yet that this is adequate explanation.

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    I simply cany figure out what the problem is otherwise.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, in that case we are truly experiencing a final breakdown. Just think, even during the Bush administration, there was more cooperation and give-and-take from both sides of the aisle than we’re seeing right now.

    So yes, we’re seeing breakdown.

  • Baronius

    Yay! I win!

    Peeling off Collins and Snowe takes little effort. Guys like McCain and Graham think that compromise looks statesmanlike. If you get Voinovich, Lugar, or Hatch on the right issue, they’ll join the Democrats gladly. A well-written Democratic health care reform bill could have gotten 72 votes in the Senate.

    The obstruction in Congress has been between the House and Senate D’s, and the Blue Dogs vs. the moderates vs. the left. The big points of contention, single-payer, individual mandates, and universal coverage, still haven’t been resolved, and you’ve got Democrats who oppose the bill on either side of those issues.

    And where’s the President on these issues? It’s hard to say for sure. He’s said that everything’s open, and also that he’s not willing to compromise on some things, but the list of things he’s not willing to compromise on is pretty vague. (Personally, I think it’s great if the President is doing this on purpose, because it restores the Founders’ vision of the legislative and executive branches.) He’s promised to listen to Republicans, but ignored their proposals.

    And no one thought through the abortion issue. For millions of Americans on either side, that’s the most important issue in health care. This isn’t amateur night. Reid’s been in politics since before Roe v. Wade; couldn’t someone have foreseen that the politics of abortion can get a little sticky?

  • Dan

    “vague conspiracy theories? has this inner circle of liberal politicians that has usurped power from the people only put it all together for the last year? or am i missing something?”—zingzing

    Yes, you’re missing something. The hostiliy you exert just to ward off a simple discussion of alternative view points makes it seem that an epiphany of the degree required for you to have some world-view transformation is unlikely.

    In that sense roger get’s it right. Any opportunity of a meaningful “interchange” looks futile. Though roger reveals his own ideological bent when he writes how I’m “moved by a kind of hatred”, whereas Baritone merely is afflicted with “equally unshakable beliefs”.

    rogers analysis seemingly comes from Baritone’s proclaiming “brain dead” a catagory of people I had just subscribed to and my observation that that view was shared by “numbnutted kooks”.

    I’m not complaining. Just examining.

    But if I were to entertain the fantasy that meaningful exchanges were possible here in this forum, I would argue that these sort of unexamined reflexive and group reenforced hostilities amount to a sort of conspiracy. And it’s the same sort of zeal you see in bigger things that actually matter, and affect policy. Like global warming.

    It’s great that some of the excesses warmers perpetrated are finally being exposed. Maybe subsequent whistle blowers won’t have to face professional discredit for speaking out.

    But what about the creepy desire to fudge data, corrupt peer review, and manipulate public sentiment?

    Now that it appears the magnitude if not perhaps the existance of anthtropological induced global warming may need to be rethought, what of all the public expenditure already down the rat-hole to further the acceptance of what might be a false reality.

    I think a lot of tea partiers believe anthro warming to be a hoax simply because all of leftist ideology is infected with the kind of zeal that is conducive to dishonesty. The kind of necessary deception Saul Alinsky recommends as a societal shaping mechanism.

    While my allusion to “small government” is ridiculed as a “catch phrase” of the “clueless” by roger, his hostility toward the mere mention of this founding principle tells me what I need to know about the chance of a meaningful exchange.

    It’s always been the same old tired argument. You either want to control your life, or you want someone else to. We’re all between those absolutes, so it’s an argument of degree. But the shift has been steadily towards external control and all of the hazards that brings. (like Fannie and Freddies backing of high risk housing loans led to a housing bubble and collapse) Followed by the audacity to blame the entire mess on lack of regulation and bankers.

    Hitler blamed the bankers too. (just sayin)

    “;0 I like Obama, he keeps you all on your toes.”—Jeanie

    Jeanie, if you’d like I can call you Obama girl. just as a playful friendly jab.

    I always thought Obama girl was hot, but now that she’s so articulately recanted, she has a new intellectual attractiveness. Anyone else?

    Dan (the original)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Thank you for commenting on my thread last night. It was greatly appreciated, I think.

    Single-payer-health-care is the answer for most of us.

    :] I left a nice response for you there, but there are a lot of people in the way of it right now…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan,

    You can call me “Obama girl” if you learn how to spell my name correctly.

    It’s spelled J E A N N I E…:]

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    You are probably taking the day off from this crap and I know that I should do the same.

    :] see ya B. We can both feel-good today!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For as long as you’re going to hide behind meaningless little phrases and buzzwords, yes, I would say that the chance of a meaningful exchange is minimal.

    As to your earlier observation, sure I have revealed my own bias. Baritone does believe, I am convinced, in a better, more equitable world, while you believe in holding on to the past. So yes, both of you have your own respective beliefs; and I suppose both of you are no strangers to hatred.

    But he is on the offense, Original, while you on a defense. It is you and your views that are being attacked, because you are an obstacle standing in the way of progress. It’s you who have to dig in deeper in order to be able to stand your ground, because you represent the past, Baritone the future.

    And you know it, and it’s showing. So yes, I stand by what I said. By the very nature of the game that’s being played, you defending against the touchdown, you display greater venom than he does.

    Defense is always a bitch, ain’t it?

  • pablo

    Dan 135

    WOW. Dan your the man man. Where ya been? Nice fucking comment, thanks for some sanity.

  • pablo

    Baritone Roger? Pulllease

  • Dan

    Sorry Jeannie. er, Obama girl!

    That’s it roger, drop the pretense and bare the fangs. It’s very demonstrative of what I’ve already stated.

    Defense isn’t the bitch. It means you possess something worth being attacked for.

    Those simple aspersions about holding on to the past vs welcoming the future, are hokey at best. As I’ve explained it’s actually the opposite.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I never pretended anything, Dan, and you should know that from all my posts – especially with anyone as overt as you.

    Yes, you do represent the past, buddy, because you’re clinging to ideas that are at least two hundred years old. And you do flatter yourself when you say that you’re being attacked.

    It’s in the nature of progress that it proceeds on its own and removes the obstacles that stand in the way. So yes, my proper designation for you and what you represent is just that – merely an obstacle.

    As to the merits you attribute to your ideas – as being worth defending – that’s a misrepresentation too. It’s you who have a stake at defending them. It speaks not to the relative value or validity of the ideas themselves.

    Time waits for no one, Dan. Your voice will soon become as inconsequential as whistling in the wind.

  • Baronius

    Dan, you can just picture Roger pounding on the podium like Krushchev, can’t you? You’re doing great. You should post here more often.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why is that? Because you’ve lost your own voice? Or perhaps because you need reinforcement?

    And yes, I’m quite capable of pounding when push comes to shove, and smashing heads, and causing weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    I am part-Ukrainian, Baronius, if you know what that means. I take no prisoners.

  • Dan

    I’ve not read a high percentage of your posts rog. I’m not here a lot anymore. I do have you pegged as a certain type. Not toatally unflattering.

    While I’m “clinging to ideas that are at least two hundred years old.” yours are much much older. Individual autonomy for common people is the newer idea.

    All of the principles that create the best life experience for the most people probably sound like “buzz words” to you. So I won’t weigh you down.

    “my proper designation for you and what you represent is just that – merely an obstacle.”—rog

    Us obstacles are beginning to react. That is what the TP movement is.

    “Time waits for no one, Dan. Your voice will soon become as inconsequential as whistling in the wind.”

    So ominous. But, I’m not impressed by your depression inducing tactic here. It sounds like a documentary on vanishing species.

    To counter (and continue to question the utility of our exchange), I might tell you how my… never mind.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t care, Dan how you peg me, but a type I am not. Only such as yourself resort to the notion of “types” to make sense of the world.

    If you’re thinking perchance that I’m against individual or communal autonomy, you’re also grossly mistaken in assuming you have a glimpse of my thought. But your talk of “small government” – while unsupported by any detailed reasoning or suggestions as to possible solutions – is singularly unproductive and, in the form stated, just another cop-out and a buzzword. So forgive me for taking you to task and piercing through the emptiness of your words.

    I do not condone the centralizing tendency on the part of the government, but I do understand it as a natural response to living in an increasingly interconnected and interdependent world. My approval or disapproval of it has nothing to do with the course of the events which keep on unfolding themselves before our very eyes, and daily. I’m merely observing. I do hope, in fact believe, that another political/economic configuration will emerge in the course of time, one which will be better able to deal with the realities of the present – but that’s in the future. Meanwhile, we’re going through an intermediary phase trying to rebuild and/or respond to a system that is broken. But since the system is broken, there is no rebuilding what is quickly proven to be obsolete. Another age is awaiting.

    You say you’re and yours are reacting. Of course you are. But reaction has always been part and parcel of the movement of history, its ebbs and flows. Eventually, all reactions subside or simply die out and pave the way for the new.

    So no, I’m not trying to induce any kind of depression in you or in anybody else. It’s just that we’re viewing the present through totally different eyes. You are keen on stopping the march of history and recapture the good old past. I, on the other hand, am convinced that all such efforts are futile and bound to fail – not only because the past wasn’t as glorious as you would like to believe, but more importantly perhaps, because I see the presence as the inauguration of the new.

    If you have anything original to add, I might consider it. But no, I don’t have any desire to communicate with a representative of any group – be it a TP or whatever other aggregation of people to claim to represent. You see, I don’t buy into any group propaganda or group-think I find it totally uninstructive.

    And don’t forget now. I wasn’t I who put you in any category of people or thought of you as a type. It was you who proclaimed yourself to be a proud card-carrying member.
    So I hope you do enjoy your newly found solidarity, but spare me the slogans.

  • zingzing

    dan: “The hostiliy you exert just to ward off a simple discussion of alternative view points makes it seem that an epiphany of the degree required for you to have some world-view transformation is unlikely.”

    hrm. seems like i asked a lot of questions, thereby inviting discussion. maybe if you could be more specific, i might actually understand. like, if you were to answer my question about what the media gets out of this, maybe it wouldn’t seem like such malarkey.

    as it stands, you’ve only pointed out some vague, conspiratorial power-grab, but haven’t given any whats or wheres or whys. maybe my questions only seem “hostile” because they point out glaring holes in your theory. all i’m asking is that you fill them in, if you can.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Maybe, just maybe, the Republican Party has the potential to become the party of No Bovine Excrement.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Smaller government” is the answer, zing. How many times do you have to be told that?

    What part of “no” don’t you understand?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Bar – You say:

    “Peeling off Collins and Snowe takes little effort. Guys like McCain and Graham think that compromise looks statesmanlike. If you get Voinovich, Lugar, or Hatch on the right issue, they’ll join the Democrats gladly. A well-written Democratic health care reform bill could have gotten 72 votes in the Senate.”

    Obviously, none of that was/is true. Does it all seem that simple to you? If it’s such a snap to do all that, hell, why don’t you go out there and show them what’s what?

    As I stated above, the dynamic has changed dramatically over the past several years. Everybody, and I mean everybody in congress appears to be running (or not running as the case may be) scared. Both Dems and Reps are dropping out like flies – now including our illustrious Sen. Bayh. It appears that more and more are finding they either haven’t the stomach for running in a difficult campaign, or perhaps as Bayh claims, he has no stomach for working in the stagnant atmosphere that pervades congress and Washington politics in general.

    In a side note, I think Bayh has done a huge disservice to both his party and, more importantly, to his state by this untimely departure. Anyone wishing to run in his stead has only until this Friday to file, and filing requires the acquisition of hundreds of signatures from throughout the state. Nice job Senator!

    Who knows what behind the scenes things have taken place that drove Bayh to this untimely decision, but it sure succeeds in landing another sucker punch to the Dems and the Obama Administration. – Ahh. I can hear the chortling sounds coming from the Right having that uniquely strangulated intonation which emanates from a tight sphincter.

    Jeannie – no I haven’t taken the day off from blogging, but it was pointed out to me by my wife that I should in fact spend at least a modicum of time actually earning a living. Such is life.

  • Dan

    “communal autonomy” hee hee,

    roger you’re the one who slogans. And you have quite a flair for melodramatic word construction as well.

    the ‘system is broken or “obsolete” so we must give up on founding principles’ ruse is fooling less people all the time.

    zingzing, forget the media, what’s in it for you? you rarely make a point except for some comic ridicule. Even if being vague were a “glaring hole” in political philosophy, I’ve mentioned specifics several times. From the global warming hustle, to the housing bubble.

    Even Baritones indictment of tea party stupidity with “death panel” hysteria. Is it your contention that a feature of universal health care wouldn’t be the rationing of care, which wouldn’t lead to decisions of priority, which wouldn’t lead to shortened life spans for some people?

    Of course it will. In framing that issue, in that way, Sarah Palin won a victory for people with abstract thinking skills, and exposed the soft reliance on ridicule practiced by leftists.

    In the housing collapse, bankers could have put together any weirdly constructed levereged derivative they wanted and they would have still held up, IF the home buyers who got the easy money they wouldn’t have gotten without government intervention would have honored the commitment they agreed to when they signed the loan. It’s inarguable.

    I’m not here to continually fill in holes for you. Truth is I don’t have much respect for your style of exchange after you pulled that intentional pointlessness gambit once before. I won’t dwell on that either. But I can’t remember you convincing me of anything or even debating in good faith.

    I consider the onus of critical philosophic self examination to be on you guys. Why should I bother with the exchange if all you’ve got is some undeserved moral elitism(roger), or some bluster about vagueness and conspiracy (zingzing).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Vagueness appears to be your forte, Dan, because thus far you only keep on repeating yourself.

    And if your memory serves you correctly, it was you who brought up the matter of autonomy. So what’s so hard to understand about the subject of communal autonomy? It’s hardly a slogan, just a logical extension, and your characterization of it as such only displays your incapacity to think.

    And you are right, I do claim a higher moral ground and I do regard you as defective (because thus far you’re presenting yourself as defective). So until you straighten up and fly right, the exchange is useless.

  • zingzing

    dan: “zingzing, forget the media, what’s in it for you? you rarely make a point except for some comic ridicule. Even if being vague were a “glaring hole” in political philosophy, I’ve mentioned specifics several times. From the global warming hustle, to the housing bubble.”

    what’s in it for me? i don’t know. nothing. what’s in it for you? i’ll give you the comic ridicule thing. but being vague about your conspiracy theory doesn’t lead to much confidence in it. and global warming and the housing bubble have been around much longer than the length of your supposed conspiracy, as far as i can tell.

    “Is it your contention that a feature of universal health care wouldn’t be the rationing of care, which wouldn’t lead to decisions of priority, which wouldn’t lead to shortened life spans for some people?”

    and how does what we have now better it? and i don’t think that death panels and rationing are the idea behind universal health care, no.

    “In the housing collapse, bankers could have put together any weirdly constructed levereged derivative they wanted and they would have still held up, IF the home buyers who got the easy money they wouldn’t have gotten without government intervention would have honored the commitment they agreed to when they signed the loan. It’s inarguable.”

    i’m having trouble following your connection here. are you saying the government used the housing bubble to take over the banking industry? (if so, they’ve cocked that up horribly.)

    “I’m not here to continually fill in holes for you.”

    but you’re the one who made the holes. i can make up some vague theory as well and tell you to go fill in the holes if you want. just to show you what i’m dealing with.

    “Truth is I don’t have much respect for your style of exchange after you pulled that intentional pointlessness gambit once before. I won’t dwell on that either. But I can’t remember you convincing me of anything or even debating in good faith.”

    thing is, you write what you wrote, you’re going to get that back. it reads like you’re part of the conspiracy, because you don’t want to tell us what it actually is.

    “I consider the onus of critical philosophic self examination to be on you guys.”

    not this time. you’re the one who laid down the secret society, nwo shit. what do you know? we don’t know.

    “Why should I bother with the exchange if all you’ve got is some undeserved moral elitism(roger), or some bluster about vagueness and conspiracy (zingzing).”

    you made your bed. what were you expecting? a lack of questions?

  • Arch Conservative

    “Yes, you do represent the past, buddy, because you’re clinging to ideas that are at least two hundred years old. ”

    I assume you were referring to the constitutuion Roger?

    All Dan did was point out that when you get right down to it there are two types of people. Those who’d rather be left alone and do for themselves and those who can’t even be bothered to make the effort because they know sooner or later someone from the federal government will come along and take care of them.

    To be honest Roger I really don’t care to make the acquaitenance of any man that does not absolutely abhor the idea of having someone else do for him what he knows he can do for himself while he still draws air.

    “Smaller government…”

    Yes sometime sit is just that simple. Why is it that liberals have this belief that a solution to a problem must be mind numbingly complex to work? How can anyone actually believe that the state can actually deliver utopia via copious amounts of social engineering?

    We do live in a society and therefore have some degree of moral obligation to one another. However we have become a nation of soft, whiney little crybabies who scream help at the first sign of adversity.

    Our presidents and leaders are chose not by who will tell you the greatest truth but who will make you the most promises about what the government will do for you thereby relieving you of as much personal responsibility as possible.

  • zingzing

    archie: “Why is it that liberals have this belief that a solution to a problem must be mind numbingly complex to work? How can anyone actually believe that the state can actually deliver utopia via copious amounts of social engineering?”

    i don’t think anyone believes either of those things.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “To be honest Roger I really don’t care to make the acquaitenance of any man that does not absolutely abhor the idea of having someone else do for him what he knows he can do for himself while he still draws air.”

    Who are you talking about here, Archie?

  • Dan

    No “communal autonomy” isn’t a slogan, just a couple of incongrouous words.

    “So until you straighten up and fly right, the exchange is useless.”

    I’ve already prescribed the same for you.

    “global warming and the housing bubble have been around much longer than the length of your supposed conspiracy, as far as i can tell.”—zing

    My supposed conspiracy is your fantasy, so I guess you would know.

    “and how does what we have now better it? and i don’t think that death panels and rationing are the idea behind universal health care, no.”

    No one said the idea behind universal health care is death panels and rationing. So you’re answering “no” to a question unasked, or a statement never asserted.

    Question is, why do you do that?

    “but you’re the one who made the holes. i can make up some vague theory as well and tell you to go fill in the holes if you want. just to show you what i’m dealing with.”—zing

    Or you can just continue to complain of my vagueness and hole creation as if there is reason to do so.

    “you made your bed. what were you expecting? a lack of questions?”

    Who’s complaining? The bed I made is comfortable. I’ve described what I’ve come to expect on this forum. No surprises.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It looks like you’re chasing me, Dan, from one thread to the next. Haven’t you had enough?

    Since you’re a hard case, the amount of work involved to bring you around is above and beyond call of duty.

    If you want private consultation, I’m game. Be aware, though, that I don’t come cheap.
    For you, I’ll make an exception: $50.00 an hour, and that’s a discount since you’re a BCer.

    You can locate my email address by clicking on my URL.

    PS: In the event you think my rates are exorbitant, I can recommend a number of Indian psychiatrists. And they honor Medicare patients if cost is the problem.

    Anyhow, I wish you the best.

  • Dan

    The delusion that I’m following you to other threads would be a good starting point in therapy with your Indian psychiatrist.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s hardly a delusion since you preface your #158 with quoting me – verbatim I should add – without referencing the source. So it’s either that you’re plagiarizing or just being chicken shit. Probably both.

    Come to think of it, I’ve come to the conclusion that drug therapy, if not electric shock treatment, is the only remedy for patients like you.

    Deep psychoanalysis is a remote possibility, but not until you’re ready.

  • Dan

    Of course I quoted you in #158. What is this talk of following you from one thread to the next? Paranoid delusion?

    What’s next? Do you think I addressed you as Obama girl too?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Quoting me with referencing the source?

    Who were you addressing then? Anyone in particular? What kinds of communications are those? No addressee, a phony handle without a URL?

    It’d seem to me that under the circumstances, your only concern is to hear yourself talk. That’s equally disturbing.

    So OK, I may have misdiagnosed you, considering the complexity of your case. But you’re still a prime candidate.

    Just remember, the $50.00 rate is a bargain. Just for you.

  • zingzing

    oi.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    vay

  • Irene Wagner

    iz mir.

  • Ruvy

    Irene,

    You should have staid out of that little oy vey dealy jobbie.

    oy vey is just a cry of pain. oy vey is mir is a curse upon oneself – “owe woe is me” – on speed. Yiddish is not German, Irene.

  • Irene Wagner

    Thanks Ruvy. I recant, and un-curse myself and any other persons involved, praying instead for blessings to all. In English. Whether they deserve them or not.

    Oy vey! If only I had staid (!) out of that little oy vey dealy jobbie… Take care, Ruvy!

  • Irene Wagner

    LOL!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Oy Vay, is what my grandmother cried out while she was dying…

    sorry I spelled it wrong..:[

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    oy vey is just a cry of pain?

    Haven’t you been blessed by God.

  • Baronius

    Bar, it’s not my job to gain votes for the Democrats, nor is it my interest. I’d think that an ex-Senator president and ex-Senator VP would know their way around the cloak room. At a minimum, they could go buy a copy of “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.

    SCHIP and Medicare Parts C and D made it into law with considerable Republican support.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    If you’ll recall, the Bush administration opposed SCHIP – which is why one of Obama’s first acts was to sign it into law.

    And as for Medicare ‘reform’ that the Republicans passed, remember that part of that ‘reform’ took away Medicare’s ability to negotiate prices with Big Pharma. That, and Clavos was complaining about how Medicare only paid up to a certain amount of his wife’s medical bills…until I pointed out that the limit was set into place thanks to the Republicans’ Medicare ‘reform’. And then there’s the ‘doughnut hole’….

    Read this:

    For Republicans, the idea of requiring every American to have health insurance is one of the most abhorrent provisions of the Democrats’ health overhaul bills.

    “Congress has never crossed the line between regulating what people choose to do and ordering them to do it,” said Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT). “The difference between regulating and requiring is liberty.”

    But Hatch’s opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.

    In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. “It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.”

    Like Baritone pointed out, the Republicans are the Party of No. Why? Because it does not matter if Obama proposes ideas that were supported by the Republicans, the GOP must oppose him in everything he does, because the more he succeeds, the more damage will be done to the Republican brand. In the current political climate, the Republicans ARE putting party before country.

    And for proof of that, look at this list of positions of the Republican party where they are opposed to positions held by the majority of public opinion.

  • http://www.geoff-hasler.com Geoff Hasler

    Mitch McConnell told Obama – govern from the center & we’ll meet you there. Mr President, do it. What have you got to lose? Only hardened leftists whom you should not have relied upon in the first place.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Mitch McConnell should retire before his brain is completely Botoxed out. Strom Thurmond was more lucid than the idiot from the Blue Grass State.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I sent three articles out today, Joel’s yours, and mine. Never give up and never give in.

    :] nite

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Yep!

  • Dan

    In light of Evan Bayhs’ announced departure, the blame for partisanship gets a little more clear. He faults his own party. This should especially chagrin Baritone, I think Indiana is his home.

    He took a few shots at the administration on the way out too. One was to say no jobs have been created in the last 6 months.

    His fold right before the deadline sent a signal as well. It puts the Dems in a pinch.

    I’ve heard the name John Mellenkamp being proposed. That would be a hoot. He seems like a reliable lefty, but I think he could be a wild card.

    Maybe Bayh’s getting back for not being selected VP.

  • Dan

    re: #163, roger, there is a history of cyber-stalking here at BC. Mostly just minor things like search engine poisoning, but some nasty aggression went off site as well.

    Unfortunate too, is that site administration seemed to be selective in both their protection of identities slandered, and policing of perpetrators. The latter, a policy that eventually came back to bite them at least once I know of. Poetic justice I guess.

    These are reasons I don’t post here, and use a “phony handle” to comment.

    Your menacing curiosity about my URL, coupled with some peculiar comments, ie. absurd accusations of plagiarism, the thouroughly gay posturing as psychiatric diagnostician etc., create a profile of a type of instability in a person that my “communications” are designed to lock out.

    Hope you don’t mind.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I didn’t really ask for so thorough an explanation, Dan, but thanks anyway.

  • zingzing

    dan: “the thouroughly gay posturing as psychiatric diagnostician.”

    way to ratchet up your cred.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    RE Bayh’s resignation: No, I’m not happy about it, but his accusations don’t surprise me. I think he was pointing his finger at both sides of the aisle. But, as I’ve noted, Bayh is a Blue Dog. He has actually been part of the problem.

    Unfortunately, Reps will likely win the seat as there isn’t really anyone amongst state Dems who has enough of a recognition factor to counter any # of better known state Reps. I saw Mellenkamp’s name being touted. I like his music, but man, I don’t think that would be a good decision for anyone. I know he is well left of center, but how would he do having every bit of his life brought to light and picked to pieces by the Reps and the media? Not good, not good.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Mellenkamp? That’s not a bad idea. I hadn’t heard this. When I think about it, look at Schwarzenegger and Ventura, they successfully-crossed over.

    With Mellenkamp thrown into the mix we could all…”Hurt so good.”

    :] my little two cents.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan, #180,

    Funny that you should be discussing this subject with an individual that I believe is playing similar games right now.

    I also, notice comments seemingly-dropping down, out of the sky, and replacing ones that I know were previously posted.

    :o I don’t say too much, do I?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I forgot to mention, Al Franken. Many people have successfully crossed over-into politics from the entertainment business.

    :] I read that little poem again, this morning.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jeannie – Frankly, I have no particular aversion to entertainers entering politics. Some have done pretty well. I suspect Franken will be far better than many imagined.

    As to Mellenkamp, he has long been a Rocker. I know little of his personal history, but if it includes much of what often passes as normal for rock musicians, that could be fodder for his opposition to harvest in a campaign.

    Mellenkamp is an inveterate smoker and has had at least 1 heart attack. Hell, he might not be able to handle a Senatorial campaign simply from a physical standpoint.

    I don’t know if he has any kind of a lurid past – he hasn’t been much of a target of the tabloids over the years, but when it comes to politics, it seems like any and all closet skeletons start to thump and rattle like crazy.

    It could be interesting, though, if nothing else.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Oh, I didn’t think you were against him entering, and that’s so true.

    Who-ever even dares to enter the political arena, all of a sudden has to be “The Patron Saint of Ethics” through-out their entire past, or they are chewed up by the opposition.

    Just another game played by the GOP.

    Democrats don’t do this, they don’t play as aggressively towards there opponents during their campaigns.

    Now, we are going to turn them into blood-suckers too. All of that money is going to start shouting! Get ready for a lot of desperate-negative ads.

    We need a third party, and it’s definitely not the Tea. I just saw Cheney at C-PAC and got nauseous.

    J I’m such a copy cat!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Their opponents! argh.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I went into Twitter the other night and changed my privacy settings to the point that I can’t even get in anymore!

    But, I followed CellPoems before doing this. Can you try to follow me so I can get back up there? It’s Rodiogal. :]

    This way my e-mail will send me a link.

    Thanks if you do…

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    “Can you try to follow me so I can get back up there? It’s Rodiogal. :]

    Well, sure. I’d follow you anywhere. – Well, almost anywhere.:} Just how do I do that? I’m not particularly twitter savvy.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I think if you sign in and look for Rodiogal, you’ll find my locked page.
    I have placed three support orders and nothing has happened.

    I’ll go try again.

    :] It’s not good when I try to protect myself. Now, even I can’t see me!

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    You mean log into twitter?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    yes. :]

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll leave right now. :]

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I’m on my twitter account. What now?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I found you but don’t know where you are!

    (Story of my life, I think.)

    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Hey, my twitter name is Bleuwine.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I found me too, but I can’t get back in!

    I saw you, looking for Rodiogal, Bleuwine, but I can’t answer you because I can’t log in!

    :] I must be to old to Tweet!

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Is there anything else I can do?

    If you’re too old to tweet, man, I’m in REAL trouble. :)
    B

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Is there anyway you can contact twitter to work out your access problems?

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I am trying to set-up a new account, I think I broke the old one…:[

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ahh. That was that crashing sound I heard.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    yes, they send you to look for questions asked by other people..that’s no help. I even changed password. so, thanks Bleuwine.

    When my article hits this place, please come and post in my thread! Don’t just run-off and write your own story.

    :]J

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    you know, I’m kidding.

    :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This really keeps them away!

    :0 Did I make someone mad?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    B,

    I used to worry and fret about who is going to get me and my big mouth, but now, let it all get out there!

    I do care.

    This is me. There are no tweets about the latest pair of shoes that are on sale at Wal-Mart, I wont even walk into the damn place.

    :]I have to go, see you in a while, I hope.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    B,

    I used to worry and fret about who is going to get me and my big mouth, but now, let it all get out there!

    I do care.

    This is me. There are no tweets about the latest pair of shoes that are on sale at Wal-Mart, I wont even walk into the damn place.

    :]I have to go, see you in a while, I hope.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Going to your twitter page, someone might get the idea that you tend to favor Obama. Oh, maybe not, but it might enter someone’s mind. What can ya do? :D

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I wanted to give you this, personaly. An Engraved and Embossed Invitation

    :) see ya.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    The only thing I can do about that Twitter page is to wipe out the account. It’s not the first time I’ve had to start over.

    :] I’ll look for your name after I’m back there. Thank-You for commenting on this new-thread, B.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    So, B,

    Are you working on something new?