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Republican Party of Florida Purges Outspoken Members

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On Friday — timed just right to minimize news coverage — Republican Party of Florida Chairman Jim Greer and the state party Grievance Committee notified a number of party members, many of them holding elective office, that they were effectively purged from the party and had been removed from their offices and would be ineligible to hold any other party positions for periods ranging from two to four years.

The targets of this purge are mostly members of the Florida chapter of the Republican Liberty Caucus, a group which seeks to return the party to its core beliefs of individual liberty, limited government, and free markets. These particular individuals were targeted because they had expressed opinions critical of party policy, candidates, and office holders, on the basis of which the grievance committee decided that they had "engaged in disruptive conduct likely to interfere with the activities of the Republican Party." Acting on the committee's recommendation, Chairman Greer issued letters stripping them of their offices and rights as party members.

This is the culmination of an ongoing assault by a party establishment dominated by big-government Republican hacks seeking to silence grassroots activists who are trying to reform the party and bring it back to the values on which it was founded. Previous actions against the RLC include an attempt to prevent them from using the word “Republican” in their name, despite the fact that the group has used the title for almost 20 years and obtained permission in writing from the party for the use of the name under a prior administration.

The current actions may be at least partially driven by the success of the RLC in Florida, where it has grown to be one of the largest political groups in the state, and by the outspoken support of many members for Marco Rubio, who is challenging incumbent Governor Charlie Crist in the next senatorial election. Many RLC activists supported Ron Paul in the last presidential primary and were not enthusiastic about the McCain nomination, drawing criticism from the party establishment. Also at issue were demands for an audit of the state party and an investigation into financial improprieties by Orange County Chairman Lew Oliver.

The complaint against Florida RLC Chairman Will Pitts was typical of the type of issues raised against the targets of the purge. Pitts attended a Campaign for Liberty event, wore a Ron Paul button after the primary, went to an End the Fed rally and was critical of GOP leaders, including describing Chairman Greer and Governor Crist as "pathetic and embarrassing."

On the basis of actions like these, which amount to little more than having an opinion which is unpopular with the party leadership, Pitts was banned from serving in any official office in the RPOF for two years plus another two years of probation, during which expressing an unapproved opinion will presumably lead to further punishment. Other RLC members targeted include Nick Egoroff of Orlando who was expelled for four years, Northeast Florida RLC Chairman John Stevens who was removed from his office as a Precinct Committeeman and banned from office until 2013 which is after the next election cycle, and RLC board member Elizabeth Campbell who was stripped of her position as a Committeewoman in Escambia County. Others targeted in the purge include Brevard Republican Chairman Jason Steele, Orange County Precinct Committeeman Deon Long and anti-tax activist Doug Guetzloe of Orange County. Egoroff plans to file a lawsuit against Greer and the state party.

It is troubling to see these purges directed at loyal grassroots activists like Will Pitts and John Stevens who have been working hard for years to build up the Republican Party in Florida, bring in new blood and encourage reforms and a return to Republican ideals. It's outrageous that they have been punished by the Florida Party for little more than expressing personal opinions which were not popular with a leadership which has no tolerance for dissent or speech which doesn't match their version of political correctness. The GOP has always been a "Big Tent" with room for diversity of opinion and a respect for the right of free expression, but in Florida under Greer the rules are more like those of the Soviet Communists who believed that slavish subservience to the party was more important than individual rights.

Who can blame these activists for their honest disagreement with the policies which have taken the GOP away from its principles of limited government and individual liberty, sold its soul to special interests, and brought it to a reduced status as a minority party in both houses of Congress? The party needs them and their idealism far more than it needs leaders like Greer who defend the status quo with purges and suppression of dissent.

It's also disturbing that many of those purged held offices which they were voted into in a public election. It is fundamentally wrong that party officials should negate the vote of the people for such petty reasons. The will of the people is not lightly flaunted and there will be a price to be paid in the next election for riding roughshod over the voters and party rank and file who see the need for change which the leadership is blindly resisting.

Party leaders ought to be looking to the RLC for a new generation of leadership, not singling them out for punishment for stating truths which ought to be obvious. This purge is a direct attack on loyal Republicans who just want to see the Party live up to its avowed beliefs. Healthy debate makes the party stronger and enthusiastic grassroots activists like these should not be punished for commitment to principle or idealism, even when it leads them to openly criticize the leaders who have failed them and the party.

The national board of the Republican Liberty Caucus has issued a strongly worded press release in support of the Florida chapter urging their members nationwide to write letters to newspapers and national party officials protesting the purges.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Mark

    It might just be me, but isn’t there something of a qualitative difference between Stalin’s purges and these?

    While I agree that the RLC has a serious problem with the likes of Greer and the powers that be in the Republican party, isn’t the Soviet comparison a tad over the top — rhetorically speaking, that is?

  • http://otownteaparty.com Orlando Tea Party

    Purging is not the answer. It is a failure to reflect from within as to why and how this is happening within the party.

    I can tell you why; I’ve witnessed it myself. It is the fault of the leadership and inaction or inability to take proactive steps.

    Purging is not proactive, it is reactive which shows the level of failure the Republican Party is at right now.

    Every step is error-correct error which should not be supported.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Mark, sometimes you’ve got to use strong words to elicit a response.

    And yes, Orlando TP, I agree that this shows a fundamental weakness and lack of leadership which falls squarely on Jim Greer.

    In his position as chairman of the state party his role should have been to step in and find a way to resolve the conflict, rather than letting it come to the conclusion which it did.

    Dave

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Game’s not as fun when you get cast in the role of pawn, it seems. But Dave, look at it this way; the system works just fine, just like you said. The people are getting what they want. You just don’t happen to want what they do.

    I am coming around to seeing things your way. Like when you told me that the people with the power and assets should be the ones making the decisions, because they are the ones who have more at stake.

    That ownership of the word ‘Republican’, that’s pretty amusing. Guess that’s what happens when people can own words. (To hell with historical significance.)

    Can’t wait to see what the results of owning human genes will be.

  • Mark

    Mark, sometimes you’ve got to use strong words to elicit a response.

    Yup. Nothing like a good red scare to get people hopping! Especially exceptional Americans.

  • Clavos

    I am a Floridian and a conservative-Libertarian. Because of Florida’s bizarre registration requirements, I am registered as a Republican, but I vote as an independent. I support Marco Rubio.

    Jim Greer is an embarrassment to the party and to the state of Florida. It is he and the Grievance Committee who should be purged — permanently.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’ve felt for a long time that the republican party had gotten away from the things that made me think I was more with them than against them, so to speak. I’ve always been a registered independant, but that’s because I don’t have the nads to pick one party. Really, it’s more because I don’t agree with any one platform. I’d say I’m more libertarian than anything, but more often than not they (the Libertarian Party) pick people that are just a little to far out for me!

    But isn’t this just great. It seemed like first it was just the democrats that were tearing themselves up from the inside out, with the blue dogs and moderates against the likes of Pelosi and Reid. Now the republicans are gonna do it too?

    What’s the world coming to? Rebulicans are kicking people out of Fla and MSNBC has an FLA rebublican in it’s morning lineup??? It’s dogs and cats dancing in the streets next!

  • John

    The GOP refuses to change, they love money, power, wealth all for themselves. Oh wait, is’nt that like the Dems too? Yup, they’re one party, just have to have 2 names, so most of them wil get elected and keep the status quo moving. What a bunch of idiots. We need Ron Paul 2012, Rand Paul 2010, Peter Schiff 2010 and many more like them. These are the guys the GOP needs. The GOP will never succeed without them.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ah, the perils of a two-party system.

    As an outsider, it makes no sense to me that you should have to register a political affiliation in order to vote anyway. Surely the only constitutional criteria are that you are 18 or older, sane and not a felon?

    Where your political sympathies lie should be none of the registrar’s fucking business.

  • Baronius

    “Marco Rubio, who is challenging incumbent Governor Charlie Crist in the next election”

    That’s not exactly right. Crist and Rubio are both running for the Senate seat in 2010. They’ve both held major state office. (Rubio has more legislative experience.) Rubio’s people should treat Crist as no more than a fellow candidate, unless they’re sure that perceived incumbency will be a negative.

  • http://freedem.blog.googlepages.com/home FreeDem

    Wow – a knockdown drag out fight between the Libertarians and the Theocrats both the sort that the elephant was supposed to remind everyone that they would never forget had nearly destroyed the Country.

    Max Blumenthal got the story right when he called his book Republican Gomorrah. You create two Frankenstein monsters and then complain that they are destroying the village. Unfortunately we all live in the village.

  • Jive Dadson

    Patriots of Florida, Mr. Greer is a disgrace and an impediment to the cause of Liberty. Redouble your efforts.

  • Cannonshop

    And now, the Florida Republican Party Demonstrates that there’s not a dimes’ difference between control-freak big-government Democrats and control-freak big government Republicans.

  • Truth speaker

    Here is just one of a thousand examples of why these “Republicans” were booted. This email was sent by Will Pitts, leader of the RLC, just days before the election.
    ____________________

    “For liberty to survive in America. Obama must win.

    Here is how I see the current garbage being pushed to us from the mainstream media. My opinion is that in order for us to to save America Obama has to win. If McCain wins then those who consider themselves to be “conservatives” will be lulled back to sleep. They will feel they have won and will tune into their daily dose of Hannity and Rush and feel as if by listening to talk radio for an for an hour a day they are Patriots.

    I have experienced deep resentment from my own party just as Ron Paul did in the primary. The Republican party does not want anything to do with repudiating the communist manifesto. Both Obama and McCain support the erosion of property rights, they are jointly embracing Al Gores environmental initiative. McCain is heading the globalist environmental agenda, they both support eroding our sovereignty to the UN, they both support the Kyoto treaty, they both support an assault weapons ban, they both support gun confiscation, they both support a centralized US Department of Education, they both oppose the 10th Amendment, they both support continued war, they both support unlimited borrowing, they both support a graduated income Tax, they are both socialist.

    The problem with a McCain is that when he practices socialism conservatives are treated as heretic for speaking against what he is doing. Many in the party are so stupid that if a Republic does something that is socialistic and the talking heads promote it (i.e war) then the socialist policies become “conservative.” Then one is not a “good Republican” if they speak against the new policy of the party, even if what they are doing is un American.

    Therefore, the only way to effectively awaken and unify the Constitutional Conservative Republicans, Constitutional Conservative Democrats, Constitutional Conservative Independents is to have blatant socialist in office.

    The demise of America is coming from those who claim to be Conservatives who do most harm to the Constitution. John McCain would be exactly that type he will kill the constitution and our sovereignty through incrementalism.

    At least with Obama he is going to go for the brass ring to bring in tyranny and socialism. At that time hopefully Constitutional conservatives can call the question to restore the republic. Below is my take on Globalist McCain.

    On McCain

    The final push to get the sheep into the slaughter pen is underway. The Globalist Neo-Conservatives have successfully taken over the Republican Party just the same as the Nazi’s took over the Weimar Republic and suspended the German Constitution. The Nazi’s then led a totalitarian regime and the rise of Hitler in his quest to establish the New Order.

    Hitler’s globalist movement continues today with the New World Order and can not be accomplished until the American people become disarmed and subservient to the United Nations and its World Trade Organization and their un-American socialist agreements NAFTA and CAFTA and the ultimate override of US Sovereignty – NATO.

    The Globalist have slowly and gently guided the American people from thoughts of freedom and liberty to government domination and group speak through media manipulation, marginalization, humiliation , loyalty oaths, and rigged straw polls.

    Their final denouement was to secure their nomination by demonstrating their ideal police state at the Republican National Convention (“RNC”) evidenced by armed gun ships, check points, swarms of combat police in full riot gear, intimidation, unlawful arrest and the such. Even within the Republican convention the Nazi ilk demonstrated and flaunted their take over of the Republican Party by recruiting partly loyalist to watch other party members and to report them and strong arm them to silence dissenting opinions. All of this was well funded by the US taxpayers and the multi national corporate lobbyist who were celebrating their victory over the people.

    Prior to the RNC their well orchestrated schemes were evident with local party bosses parroting the orders of the state bosses who parroted the orders of the national bosses who parroted the orders from the RNC committee leaders who received them directly from the oracles of the anti-American lobbyists and special interest groups. The McCain annointing message was sent down, comply and you will be rewarded, and if you do not comply and get rid of all dissenters you can plan on a ruined political career and no funding unless the message was pushed down stream.

    The handwriting on the wall was there for all to see during the last week of December 2007 when long shot candidate John McCain received “in a rare move” the support form Benedict Arnold, foreign born, Heinz “Henry” Kissinger. Heinz then quickly paraded the washed out parrot John McCain to the Council on Foreign Relations and to its members including their CEO and reported of the national global media firms. This immediately ensured that the McCain “Maverick patriot” message was pushed down to the masses.

    Quicky Former President Bush jumped in and backed McCain.

    Once Kissinger, Bush, the Carlyle crew and the AIPAC elite announced the announting, the talking heads on the networks, that are predominately viewed by the party membership, went to work to prop up McCain. They simply began talking about how great he is are all day long while simultaneously marginalizimg his opponents.

    McCain did not need real support or money and coincidently at the time McCain had neither. The message began with “McCain may not have money but he is going to win New Hampshire.” Blah, blah, blah, it was story after story all day long about McCain heading to New Hampshire and winning again. The benefit and value of the incessant free positive media coverage provided by the major network would have cost in the tens of millions of dollars if not the hundreds of millions. The fix was in and the game was on for the minds of the 80% of Americans who form their opinion from televisions. These same non-thinking Americans place implicit trust in what the “credible” pundits have to say and they were saying “McCain.”

    Simultaneously, the media controlled networks and AIPAC writers began their smear campaign against the only pro-American, Pro Liberty Candidate that was in the presidential race-Ron Paul.

    11/17/07 Mona Charen Slimes Ron Paul.

    1/13/08 Ron Paul – The Smear Campaign.

    11/29/07 Ron Paul smeared by CNN’s Jeffrey Toobin about NAFTA highway.

    5/28/08 Media Campaign Against Ron Paul Continues.

    Following McCain’s visit to the CFR has was paraded to the Anti- American – Israeli Lobbyist firm AIPAC where he was escorted by his two handler rabbis – rabbi Kissinger and rabbi Lieberman, where he swore upon the altar of the Global New World Order allegiance and aid to Israel and swore to continued aid to all foreign nations as directed and allegiance to defend the Israeli agenda and to continued preemptive war against those enemies so declared by Israel.

    Any liberty minded individual who has not witnessed the erosion of the Bill of Rights with the Patriot Act, John Warner Act, Military Commissions Act and other such tyrannical pieces of Unconstitutional legislation has been asleep. These assaults on the U.S. Constitution and the American People are all supported by the treasonous traitor John McCain.

    Now the very elect -the remnant – is still being deceived. We are told “you have got to vote McCain or we will have Obama. Big Bad Obama.” Okay, so in order to go in and push the button or pull the lever for McCain I just need to reconcile a few things before I sell my soul to Satan.

    No wait, we are told Obama is Satan, McCain is a lesser of two evils. So i guess he is more like the one of the minion demons Balaam, Beelzebub, Baal or Amdusias. He is a lesser of two evils so that wont be that bad. Because as we are told, “nothing is as bad as having Satan.:

    So let me ask you this rhetorical question, “If you had to leave your children and posterity with Satan or one of his demons, which one would you leave them with?”

    And yes, they are going to try to scare us, “McCain will support good judges, Obama will support bad judges.” We are told, “Obama will raise taxes, McCain will not.” Hello, unless you have not heard, we are $10 trillion in debt, have $40 trillion of debt obligations and Bush and the Central Bankers are working to saddle us more debt than the entire worlds GDP. This is more of the big lie. In reality, these guys serve the same masters there will be no difference. The two worship at the same altar.

    So then, realizing that the American People were not buying the McCain story hook line and sinker – and they damn sure were not buying a McCain – Lieberman ticket they reached into their bag of tricks and pulled out Sarah Palin.

    Sarah Palin is the latest rabbit out of the hat. Along with Palin comes the globalist media machine to sell her as the savior of the party and the savior of America. We if she is so great, why doesn’t the party switch her to president and McCain to VP?

    The neoconservative handlers have taken her, written her policy, they wrote her speech at the convention and they have her on record reciting her speech. She can not change her position if she wanted to. This tells us that if what she said is what she actually believes, then we need to reject her message. If she said what she was told to say then I definitely don’t want her because she is not strong enough to stand up for the courage of her convictions. She is not fit to be president.

    Aside from that, the woman is crazy. She thinks it is Gods will for us to preemptively invade other nations and murder their citizens because they may attack us or they may develop a weapon for their own defense. I think we have heard that before. Sarah Palin is a red herring for the globalist and an irrelevant non-issue.

    McCain will continue to disregard the US Constitution to sacrifice the lives of our young to do the bidding of Israel and the Neo-cons. McCain is a traitor and enemy to the US Constitution and has no problem sending our youth to slaughter for his own lesser demon goals of the world.

    McCain will continue to promote the United States participation into NATO thus allowing the US to be pulled into Unconstitutional wars.

    McCain will continue to promote the devaluation of the US Dollar and enslavement of Americans through US Debt.

    McCain will continue to promote the Sovereignty of the United Nations and a world government to the detriment of the US Constitution.

    McCain will continue to promote the Real “Dangerous” ID Act that allows for the federal government to surveillance all Americans including our children and to track their every move.

    McCain will continue to undermine the sovereignty of the States and their legislatures.

    McCain will continue to promote a federal education system that overrides the state legislatures and pushes a socialist totalitarian worldview on our children.

    John McCain and his ilk are traitors to the American People and the US Constitution. Any support of this man and their Forth Reich regime constitutes aid and assistance to the enemy of the US Constitution and aid to a traitor to this nation. They do not hold a monopoly or a claim to my mind or my vote.

    So as for me I will not cave to the manipulation of two false choices.

    So as for me, there will not be blood on my hands by consenting to their actions. They murdered nearly 70 children in the past month in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    As for me, my children will never be in shame because I have to tell them I supported a tyrant who murdered hundreds of thousands.

    Every vote for McCain will show a false sense of support for the lesser of two evils. The lesser of two evils is still evil and we must reject the evil. Our fight does not end in November, it has only just begun.

    And no we don’t have to leave the Republican Party if we don’t like McCain and the Neo-Conservatives. If someone breaks into your home and holds you by force and says “sign this oath to support me or leave your home to me”, do you leave or do you fight to take it back?

    This is the same false choice we are presented by those who are attempting to take the party and the country captive. We will stay in the party. We will take a stand. We will fight. We will silence those who are traitors to the U.S. Constitution, traitors to our sovereignty and traitors to America.

    We have been asleep but the spirit of liberty has been re-awakened. We are back, we are not going anywhere and we are here to take it back!

    -Will Pitts”

  • zingzing

    “The GOP has always been a “Big Tent” with room for diversity of opinion and a respect for the right of free expression, but in Florida under Greer the rules are more like those of the Soviet Communists who believed that slavish subservience to the party was more important than individual rights.”

    again with the communism. but i see your point. i just wouldn’t have put it that way… is communism just about anything you don’t like?

    and your abbreviation of “Orlando TP” just throws fuel on the fire.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, truthy. Will Pitts is an unrepentant radical who advocated the need for the GOP to be slapped down so that it would be forced to rebuild itself. He did this BEFORE he held an elective position or was head of the RLC of Florida. And regardless of when he did it, he has a RIGHT as an American and a Republican to hold an opinion and if he runs for office it is the voters who should assess that opinion, not the party.

    Dave

  • Lumpy

    Another reason I’m glad I don’t live in Florida. Here in Virginia the libertarian republicans and the state party seem to get along a lot better. Maybe it’s because we can look across the river and see the beast and know how badly it needs to be put down,

  • http://cpflorida.com Dan Gonzales

    Beast? The only way to put the beast down is to quit supporting it! You look across the river in Virginia and what you see is a reflection. The two party cabal is the problem here and some of you need to learn to cut the apron strings and stand strong for a change. You cannot change the top of the Republican pyramid but you can abandon it and build a new one. Even our founding fathers had to learn when to quit the old ways and begin anew.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The top of the Republican pyramid has been changed at least 5 or 6 times in the past in substantial ways. There’s no reason why it can’t happen again, turning one of the parties into a net positive instead of a neutral or a negative force.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Truth Speaker – great post! It’s great not in the rhetoric of Pitts, but in enlightening us as to some of the infighting within the Republican party.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And Glenn, look at what Pitts is saying – ignoring the conspiratorial part – and you’ll see how a lot of Republicans have felt about Bush and the party leadership since about 2003. It really gives the lie to the Democrat argument that all Republicans are inherently complicit in anything Bush and the party may have done wrong.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    “The GOP has always been a “Big Tent” with room for diversity of opinion and a respect for the right of free expression.”

    That has GOT to be the biggest load of bovine excrement I’ve ever seen you post. I really don’t mean any personal insult by that, because I’m sure you mean exactly that…and conversely, I think I can safely say that you think the same of my own posts.

    But back to the ‘big tent’ and ‘respect for the right of free expression':

    1 – there are mainstream Christians, agnostics, and atheists in the Republican party…but how many Republicans are Hindu? Or (horrors!) Wiccan? Or Muslim, especially after the Bush administration? That doesn’t sound like a ‘big tent’.

    2 – There are minorities in the Republican party…but a quick glance at the political conventions last year will show where the minorities really are, and you know it. Remember the coverage by Fox at the Republican convention, how they would repeatedly focus in on the same small set of African Americans? That’s because that ‘small set’ were pretty much the only African Americans there. Again, that doesn’t look like a ‘big tent’ to me.

    3 – Which party is it whose members more strongly support making English the ‘official language’ of America? You know very well it’s the Republicans…and considering the continuing change in demographics, well, that’s not exactly the ‘big tent’ way.

    4 – Who raises cain whenever there’s a controversy about ‘In God We Trust’ on our coins, and ‘One nation under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawns, and Christmas trees and nativity scenes on government property, and this very year about Obama’s ‘lack of support’ for the National Day of Prayer (or something like that)? So much for the Republican support for separation of church and state…and exactly what would those who are not mainstream Christians think about the ‘big tent’ that Republicans claim? Especially when there’s a whole slew of Republicans who continue to claim that America is a ‘Christian country’?

    5 – AND how about that Republican ‘big tent’ strategy for gays, lesbians, and transsexuals? Ever hear of DOMA, the Defense of Marriage act that is so popular among Republicans that it has its own acronym?

    The Republican party, where one can find a ‘Big Tent’ and support for ‘freedom of expression’? Please.

    You know better than this, Dave. I’ve said before that you are intelligent, educated, and no fool…but these advantages also mean that we can expect you to know when your own words are grossly inaccurate. There are many who will strongly agree with what you say…just as there are many who believe everything that Rush and Hannity say.

    But due to the general level of intelligence of those who blog here, those on the right AND on the left who imbibed a bit too much grape Kool-Aid are called out and exposed on a regular basis. You’ve done this for me…and I hope you see that I’m doing it now for you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    “It really gives the lie to the Democrat argument that all Republicans are inherently complicit in anything Bush and the party may have done wrong.”

    Um, I’m not sure if you realize this, but you Republicans DID elect Bush…twice.

    That’s one thing I’ve noticed about Republicans – they take NO responsibility for Bush’s mistakes…even though millions voted to re-elect him.

    Me, I’ll point out the mistakes of Democratic presidents…but I also strongly defend them, and you know it.

    Maybe that’s one of the things that separate conservatives from liberals. Conservatives believe that individual is paramount, that little or no responsibility is shared…whereas liberals believe that while individual responsibility is important, we also have a very real shared responsibility – for peace, for the planet, for equal rights, what have you.

    The primacy of individual responsibility in conservative eyes – does that not go back to what I said about the self-reliance inherent in rural lifestyles giving rise to a conservative worldview?

    Maybe I’m wrong about that, but I’d like to hear what you think about that observation.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    1 – there are mainstream Christians, agnostics, and atheists in the Republican party…but how many Republicans are Hindu? Or (horrors!) Wiccan? Or Muslim, especially after the Bush administration? That doesn’t sound like a ‘big tent’.

    I belong to a yahoo group called “pagan republicans anonymous” which is full of Wiccans. Most of the wiccans and other neopagans I know are Republicans, especially those who have a background in the military, which is quite common. Hindus and Muslims? Have a talk with the clerk at your local convenience store about his politics sometime. I think you’ll be surprised. And ask them how they liked Bush – again, you’ll be shocked. Or talk to some Iranian-Americans sometime. Overwhelmingly Republican. There’s something you’re missing here.

    2 – There are minorities in the Republican party…but a quick glance at the political conventions last year will show where the minorities really are, and you know it. Remember the coverage by Fox at the Republican convention, how they would repeatedly focus in on the same small set of African Americans? That’s because that ‘small set’ were pretty much the only African Americans there. Again, that doesn’t look like a ‘big tent’ to me.

    Actually, what I’ve seen is the media aggressively avoiding showing the presence of African Americans in the GOP. The most notorious example being their filming of the gun-carrying protester in Arizona where they focused on the gun to avoid showing the fact that he was black.

    But I wasn’t actually talking about racial diversity. The GOP isn’t about race and has never made its appeal on racial grounds. I’m talking about diversity of political perspective.

    3 – Which party is it whose members more strongly support making English the ‘official language’ of America?

    A view shared by over 70% of the general population in the latest polls.

    And again, you live a sheltered life. Go out and talk to some American-born hispanics sometime about immigration and the English language. You’ll be surprised.

    You know very well it’s the Republicans…and considering the continuing change in demographics, well, that’s not exactly the ‘big tent’ way.

    Again, the GOP is not and has never been about race. As a party it’s entirely blind to the issue. And again, that’s not the kind of diversity I’m talking about. I’m talking about Republicans not agreeing with each other, which there’s an awful lot of.

    4 – Who raises cain whenever there’s a controversy about ‘In God We Trust’ on our coins, and ‘One nation under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawns, and Christmas trees and nativity scenes on government property, and this very year about Obama’s ‘lack of support’ for the National Day of Prayer (or something like that)?

    A small number of people on the religious right who get a great deal of undeserved publicity out of it.

    So much for the Republican support for separation of church and state…and exactly what would those who are not mainstream Christians think about the ‘big tent’ that Republicans claim? Especially when there’s a whole slew of Republicans who continue to claim that America is a ‘Christian country’?

    There are a whole bunch of Democrats who claim that America is an imperialist country or a racist country. Doesn’t make it true.

    5 – AND how about that Republican ‘big tent’ strategy for gays, lesbians, and transsexuals? Ever hear of DOMA, the Defense of Marriage act that is so popular among Republicans that it has its own acronym?

    Again, there are major groups within the GOP who both support and oppose gay marriage. This is what I’m talking about when it comes to diversity. A majority of Republicans polled support civil unions and a third or so support gay marriage while about a third actively oppose it and about a third are indifferent. That’s diversity of opinion.

    The Republican party, where one can find a ‘Big Tent’ and support for ‘freedom of expression’? Please.

    Republicans as a group have been on the side of free speech as an issue more often than Democrats, that’s for sure.

    You know better than this, Dave.

    I know what I see. You need to get out more and experience what America is really like beyond the boundaries of your isolated community of like-minded people.

    You show the insularity which is so common of people on the left, who assume they know what other people think and want, with no real personal experience of actually talking to those people. It’s like you live in a bizarre fantasy world.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Um, I’m not sure if you realize this, but you Republicans DID elect Bush…twice.

    Many Republicans would argue that Democrats and Independents elected Bush. He certainly wouldn’t have won based solely on Republican votes.

    That’s one thing I’ve noticed about Republicans – they take NO responsibility for Bush’s mistakes…even though millions voted to re-elect him.

    Some Republicans certainly should take blame for Bush’s mistakes, but increasingly those Republicans are becoming independents or Democrats.

    Maybe that’s one of the things that separate conservatives from liberals. Conservatives believe that individual is paramount, that little or no responsibility is shared…whereas liberals believe that while individual responsibility is important, we also have a very real shared responsibility – for peace, for the planet, for equal rights, what have you.

    If a majority of individuals work individually for peace or equal rights, won’t that accomplish the same goal as if a majority of individuals vote to have the government mandate peace and equal rights?

    The primacy of individual responsibility in conservative eyes – does that not go back to what I said about the self-reliance inherent in rural lifestyles giving rise to a conservative worldview?

    Except that the Republican party was started as an anti-rural party and really draws constituents based on criteria other than the urban/rural division, which is kind of out of date in these days of satellites and cable TV. Today more than anything the GOP is a party of the entrepreneurial class, which may include farmers, but also includes those people who own the small businesses which make up 70% of our economy and which are located in every kind of community.

    The Democrats, on the other hand, have a bizarre constituency of the very rich and the working class, two groups which have historically been at each others throats. I think this is made possible by the fact that the ultra-rich have become so wealthy that they no longer have any real ties to running a business on a day to day basis so they don’t really understand being responsible for themselves and others.

    Dave

    Dave

  • zingzing

    “The most notorious example being their filming of the gun-carrying protester in Arizona where they focused on the gun to avoid showing the fact that he was black.”

    bullshit. they fucking interviewed the guy. showed his face and everything. yeah, they focused on the gun first. that was the story. not his race.

    as for the rest of your post, specifically the part about the gop having a diversity of opinion, that may be true, but it’s also what’s dividing and destroying it. with the right’s increased radicalization, the gop is going to have a hard time holding itself together, and it’s already started pruning its more fringe elements in order to find a solid set of opinions everyone can agree on.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Again, no offense, but your replies are a sugar-coated travelogue through Republican party demographic claims and talking points.

    But the vast majority of LGBT’s and minorities and non-mainstream-Christians hear the same claims by conservatives, and they clearly see that reality doesn’t match the Republican claims.

    Yes, there are a few of each who agree with the Republicans. As I’ve said before, the minorities are generally strongly conservative when it comes to family values…but they know who is actually reaching out to them, and who isn’t.

    I think the strongest proof of this is in the fact – fact! – that the Republicans will gladly welcome anyone into the Republican party…but will Republican politicians go to speak FOR gay marriage at a pro-LGBT rally? Will Republican politicians stand against the teaching of mainstream-Christian creationism in schools? Will even lower-echelon Republican politicians walk the streets in the minority slums asking what they can do to help the poor, to help make things better (like our current president did)?

    The answer to all those is “maybe a few, but no more than that – because Republican politicians who did so would risk their political futures”. Spurious claims of support by Republican politicians for LGBT’s/minorities/non-Christians are exposed by their lack of sweat equity to make it happen – in other words, “deeds, not words”.

    You can’t just build a big tent and tell people they’re free to come inside (“Do what we think you should, and then we’ll talk.”). You’ve got to realize that if those outside the tent don’t already FEEL welcome within the tent, then you’ve got to make the effort to BUILD the tent BIGGER. They’ve got to see you making the effort to build part of the tent for them, that addresses THEIR concerns, THEIR problems too. But the vast majority of LGBT’s/minorities/non-Christians don’t see you making the effort to do that.

    Your claims do not match the reality. And you know it.

  • zingzing

    omg

    dave: “Many Republicans would argue that Democrats and Independents elected Bush.”

    and they would be wrong.

    “He certainly wouldn’t have won based solely on Republican votes.”

    not that he did or anything.

    “Some Republicans certainly should take blame for Bush’s mistakes, but increasingly those Republicans are becoming independents or Democrats.”

    oh, that’s rich. however do you come to that conclusion? are you staring your shit dead in the eye?

  • gopgal

    The GOP is a private organization (it is not run by the government) therefore it has the right to set its own rules. These people can say what they want, that is their first amendment right, but the GOP has the right to remove them or prevent them from holding office, that is their right as a private organization.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    gopgal –

    Yep! You’re absolutely right!

    But the ongoing issue between Dave and myself is not whether the GOP has the right to do as they will, but how they have been alienating LGBT’s/minorities/non-mainstream-Christians, and how said alienation only hurts the GOP and helps us Democrats.

    FYI, by 2030 whites will make up less than half the American population…which means that alienating the minorities is not a smart political move. I don’t want a one-party system, but if the GOP continues to refuse to reach out to minorities, that’s eventually going to marginalize the GOP…and we essentially get a one-party system. You guys better learn to make the tent bigger…’cause it ain’t big enough anymore.

  • zingzing

    gopgal, are you saying that the gop can seriously prevent elected officials from holding the office they were elected to?

    dave, i hadn’t realized that this was what was occurring. they seriously removed people from their elected offices? is that legal? what’s going on here? what next, the democratic party stops liking joe biden, so they stick al franken in there?

    seriously, isn’t there some sort of law against this? shouldn’t there be some sort of legal process, rather than just “you’re out,” going on here?

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    I might get slammed for this, Glenn, but you make some very good points. In my experience, there is a duplicity within the LGBT community. You’re absolutely on target when you observe that …the minorities are generally strongly conservative when it comes to family values… — especially in the LGBT community. It’s amazing how many closeted LGBT folks are in the GOP and because of their self-loathing they are doing a disservice to their own community. There’s so much room in the LGBT world for diverse political opinions and as I’ve stated many times in the past, the majority of LGBTers that I know are politically conservative while being socially liberal. Instead of singing Oh What a Friend We Have in Jesus, the ultra right should be singing Lola.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Do you mean – Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets?

  • zingzing

    i would think it would have more to do with the kink’s song, “lola,” about a cross-dressing man.

  • zingzing

    kinks’, that is…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Love that one, zing.

    You know, it all derives from the cabaret tradition and Christopher Isherwood’s The Berlin Stories.

    One memorable film of the period, Der Blaue Engel with Curt Jurgens and unforgettable Marlena.

    Here’s one link.

    You’ll like this rendition, but the one by Dietrich was unforgettable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I found one.

    Brings me to my Germanic roots (if only by association) – the European kind of decadence coupled with dreams of glory and noble origins – after Wagner’s cycle.

    And what have I traded all that – mob democracy?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But this is her signature song.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    Roger is quite correct about Dietrich’s singature song, but if you really want to embrace the Brechtian tradition of avant garde music, the version of “Naughty Lola” you want is this one by Nina Hagen.

    Dave

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    You know, if I weren’t so intelligent I’d think Dave was “family”. Yes, I was referring to the Kinks song. Has anyone ever really looked at the uber-conservative male? They are so androgynous. John Boehner – ‘heterosexual’ conservative wears more bronzer than George Hamilton. Eric Cantor – whiny, wimpy, shrill voice, effeminate and looks like an altar boy after coming out of the Eucharistic wine closet. Mitch McConnell – looks like Beauregard’s Mamma from Auntie Mame. Rush Limbaugh – fat, loud, obnoxious as a result of not being able to have carnal relations without making a substantial cash deposit up front. Jerry Falwell – fancy suits, gold jewelry and matronly (I know he’s dead). Larry Craig – well, bathroom etiquette says it all.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    And speaking of Madame Dietrich, I can picture Kay Bailey Hutchison in a black corset complete with black fishnet stockings (seam in the back), whip in one hand and lipstick in the other. Kind of like a manifestation of Rick Perry in drag.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    But the vast majority of LGBT’s and minorities and non-mainstream-Christians hear the same claims by conservatives, and they clearly see that reality doesn’t match the Republican claims.

    Silas, speaking from a position of much greater authority than you or I do, seems to disagree. It is impossible to accept the basic principles on which the GOP was founded and discriminate against ethnic or lifestyle minorities. Some people may do it, but in doing it they are moving away from the core beliefs of the GOP.

    And that’s what this article is all about, the conflict between those who have corrupted the basic principles of the party and those who want to restore them.

    Yes, there are a few of each who agree with the Republicans. As I’ve said before, the minorities are generally strongly conservative when it comes to family values…but they know who is actually reaching out to them, and who isn’t.

    And some of them are smart enough to know that those who are reaching out to them are doing it in a patronizing way and seeking to exploit them, while those who don’t pander to them do it because they actually think of them as equals.

    I think the strongest proof of this is in the fact – fact! – that the Republicans will gladly welcome anyone into the Republican party…but will Republican politicians go to speak FOR gay marriage at a pro-LGBT rally?

    Bush wouldn’t even go and speak to a pro-life rally. Very few politicians in either party will go to speak to any radical group, regardless of what its agenda is. And as I pointed out before, most Republicans support civil unions, in some cases for very good reasons. And some have gone and spoken about this to LBGT groups in non-election years. You need to read up a bit on the Log Cabin Republicans. Remember, at one point Giuliani was the GOP frontrunner in 2008 and he polled with majority support among gay voters. No Democrat has ever polled as high among gay voters in a presidential election.

    Will Republican politicians stand against the teaching of mainstream-Christian creationism in schools?

    Yes, actually. Earlier this year the Republicans in the Texas State Senate rejected a candidate for the State Board of Education because he was a Creationist. Similarly in Utah a few years ago when they tried to legislate creationism into the schools Republican legislators killed the bill.

    Your problem here is that you consistently take a majority of very loud crazies and assume they speak for the rest of the party.

    Will even lower-echelon Republican politicians walk the streets in the minority slums asking what they can do to help the poor, to help make things better (like our current president did)?

    They would if they thought it would get them votes, but the Democrats have been pretty successful in closing off access to the poor, leaving Republicans to focus on the rising middle class which is more awakened to the issues Republicans value.

    The answer to all those is “maybe a few, but no more than that – because Republican politicians who did so would risk their political futures”. Spurious claims of support by Republican politicians for LGBT’s/minorities/non-Christians are exposed by their lack of sweat equity to make it happen – in other words, “deeds, not words”.

    This has nothing to do with them being Republicans and everything to do with them being politicians. Democrats are no more likely to address groups their main constituencies see as conroversial, no matter what their personal beliefs may be.

    You can’t just build a big tent and tell people they’re free to come inside (“Do what we think you should, and then we’ll talk.”). You’ve got to realize that if those outside the tent don’t already FEEL welcome within the tent, then you’ve got to make the effort to BUILD the tent BIGGER. They’ve got to see you making the effort to build part of the tent for them, that addresses THEIR concerns, THEIR problems too. But the vast majority of LGBT’s/minorities/non-Christians don’t see you making the effort to do that.

    No. Again, this is entirely contrary to Republican beliefs. You don’t cater to groups. You don’t treat people differently. You don’t make offers to minorities which you don’t make to everyone else. You don’t make special sections of the tent for certain groups. You just keep saying that the tent is for everyone and you’ll all be treated the same. That’s what Republicans believe. Favoritism and discrimination are two sides of the same coin.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    Silas has a point in #41. It’s well known within the GOP but not widely promoted, that the party is basically run by gays. Many of the most important organizers and managers are gay and in many cases relatively open about it. They’re not militant and like a lot of people in the GOP they have decided that the basic principles of the party are more important than the pandering to special interests which goes on every election year.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good to know, Dave, that politics isn’t your only area of interest. I’ve never heard of Nina, but apparently, she’s quite talented. The same kind of energy that Judy and Liza used to have, except she takes Liza a step further.

    To tell the truth, I’m missing the Dietrich mystique, just as Garbo’s, when the unexpressed was the most potent means of articulating what one didn’t date say or portray. But those days are gone, the times of “innocence.” The modern mood is to debunk and parodize the past. It’s post-modernism, and Nina is a perfect example.

    Silas, in that case you must have loved Victor, Victoria, or the original, French version of The Birdcage.

    In the similar genre, I recommend Dangerous Liaisons with John Malkovich and Glenn Close. It’s a heckova morality play in pre-revolutionary France.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    You’re so correct, Dave. There are many gays and they won’t even belong to the Log Cabin group which really makes me laugh. One thing that’s rarely discussed in the gay subculture that lives within the Beltway. Yes, America, Washington elite is rampant with queers. And while some consider the word “queer” an epithet, I look at it as a proper label for those in the LGBT community who lurk in the shadows denying their own identities out of fear.

    I’m not advocating a militant LGBT community — far from it. I think it’s important that individuals not be defined by their so-called sexualities or personal relationships. From my own experience I have seen so many lives in constant turmoil because individuals feared embracing their very essence. It seems that the so-called progressive or liberal LGBTers get all the abstention and the rest of us brand the entire community with a broad brush stroke as being progressive, permissive and God forbid liberal. Nothing could be further from the truth. Openly gay individuals on the left and far left are but a small minority of the entire community. Classic example is Congressman David Dreier. He was passed over for leadership positions because rumors are rampant that he’s gay. If, in fact, Mr.Dreier is gay, he could go a long way in getting the GOP back on track. If he’s not, then I’m sorry he is being shunned from the leadership process because of unfair perceptions.

    And, Dave, I still want to know Rick Perry’s deal. I’ve heard a lot of innuendos (I feel a comment coming outta Cindy on that word), but nothing concrete. I guess being a Texan negates it all.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Silas, in that case you must have loved Victor, Victoria, or the original, French version of The Birdcage.

    Actually, Roger, I hated Victor, Victoria but loved La Cage Aux Folles and thought Robin WIlliams was astounding in The Birdcage but the real kudos have to go to Hank Azaria as the lovable Agador Spartacus. I wish more people would see movies like Fighting Tommy Riley, Latter Days, Love, Valor & Compassion, and HBO’s Angels in America. And speaking of Love, Valor & Compassion, Jason Alexander is brilliant and should have received an Oscar nomination for his acting along with Weeds’ Justin Kirk as Bobby.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, my goodness. Thanks for the recomendations, since I haven’t seem most of those flicks.

    Apropos “Spartacus,” indeed he was great. I suppose the Victor, Victoria was kind of depressing, a dead-end.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, Dave – here’s Nina in Somewhere over the Rainbow.

    Silas, you’ll like it too, Liza to the extreme.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    You posted: “[The Republicans would work in the poor community] if they thought it would get them votes, but the Democrats have been pretty successful in closing off access to the poor, leaving Republicans to focus on the rising middle class which is more awakened to the issues Republicans value.”

    Hate to tell you, Dave, but I’ve yet to see a “No Republicans Allowed” sign on the access routes to any poor community. We’re not stopping you at all – you’re stopping yourselves and blaming us for it.

    You posted: “Again, this is entirely contrary to Republican beliefs. You don’t cater to groups. You don’t treat people differently. You don’t make offers to minorities which you don’t make to everyone else.”

    That’s the wrong paradigm, Dave – the life experience within the Black community is significantly different from that of the White community…and both are different form those of the Hispanic communities and the LGBT community that exists in each of them.

    Their experiences are different – and so are their wants and needs. You cannot have a ‘one size fits all’ policy. Even modern medicine is coming to realize that the effectiveness of a treatment for those of one race may be significantly less effective than those of a different race.

    ‘One size fits all’ doesn’t work – never has, and never will.

    You posted: “Yes, actually. Earlier this year the Republicans in the Texas State Senate rejected a candidate for the State Board of Education because he was a Creationist. Similarly in Utah a few years ago when they tried to legislate creationism into the schools Republican legislators killed the bill. Your problem here is that you consistently take a majority of very loud crazies and assume they speak for the rest of the party.”

    Do I? YOUR vice-presidential candidate Palin supported the teaching of creation in schools…and last I recall, she’s still quite popular among most of the Republican base.

    The 2008 Missouri Republican Party Platform stated that local school districts should have the authority to determine the best way to teach creationism AND evolution. (caps mine)

    The 2008 Minnesota Republican Party Platform includes this: “Protecting educators from disciplinary action for including discussion of creation science, and adopting science standards that acknowledge the scientific controversies pertaining to the theory of evolution.”

    Here’s a quote from a 2005 USA Today article: “Seven state Republican parties (Alaska, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Oklahoma, Oregon AND TEXAS) have “anti-evolutionist” platform planks that support teaching creationism and/or intelligent design, according to the pro-evolution National Center for Science Education.” (again, caps mine) The article goes on to state that such is not on the national party platform, but seven states (including Texas(!)), that’s not ‘just a few crazies’ now, is it?

    I could go on with other examples – not just Palin, but then there’s “I-helped-in-an-exorcism” Bobby Jindal who approved an an act encouraging Louisiana state schools to provide alternative critiques of global warming, human cloning and evolution. There’s Huckabee who want’s creationism taught in schools, and Dubya Bush who said ‘intelligent design’ should be taught alongside evolution.

    So Dave, please don’t give this BS about it being ‘just a few crazies’. It’s the powerful within your party, and they’re backed by the Religious Right and the Republican base.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle


    And, Dave, I still want to know Rick Perry’s deal. I’ve heard a lot of innuendos (I feel a comment coming outta Cindy on that word), but nothing concrete. I guess being a Texan negates it all.

    Silas, being Texan trumps being gay. Even gay texans are more manly than straight yankees.

    As for gay Republicans functioning politically, I’m positive that if they just admitted to being gay and didn’t make a big deal of it and seemed comfortable with it they could still get elected. It’s not being at ease with your sexuality which seems to drive so many to act out either through militancy or deviancy. I’m positive that in the case of Mark Foley that would have worked. His constituents all knew he was gay and voted for him anyway. He should have stood up for himself on the page scandal and I think he could have weathered it.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, 7 states out of 50? Yes, that’s a few crazies who happen to be concentrated on platform committees.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    You posted: “You need to read up a bit on the Log Cabin Republicans.”

    From the Wikipedia: “It claims to have thousands of members but does not release membership figures.” (italics mine)

    Dave, you’re not stupid – you know very well what the REAL reason almost certainly is why they won’t release the numbers…and even if they aren’t exaggerating, how does that compare to the 4 to 6 million gays there actually are in America? That’s about a thousand-to-one ratio, Dave.

    You also posted: “Remember, at one point Giuliani was the GOP frontrunner in 2008 and he polled with majority support among gay voters. No Democrat has ever polled as high among gay voters in a presidential election.”

    References, please.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    “Silas, being Texan trumps being gay. Even gay texans are more manly than straight yankees.”

    LOL – and a long time ago, I would have agreed with you.

    “Glenn, 7 states out of 50? Yes, that’s a few crazies who happen to be concentrated on platform committees.”

    Including ‘lesser lights’ like Bush, Palin, and Jindal? Those ‘crazies’ (including the ones on platform committees) are in positions to speak for the majority of ALL Republicans, Dave…

    …and as long as the Republicans continue to ELECT those ‘crazies’ to those positions, they DO speak for the majority of ALL Republicans.

    Please, Dave – trying to pooh-pooh your way out of this is only reflecting poorly on you. I know you’re working to correct some of the faults of the Republican party and that you’re facing internal opposition for doing so; but to categorically deny what is so blatantly obvious and so easily verifiable…

    …Dave, you’re better than that. Please use verifiable facts, and be prepared to show how those facts relate to the big picture (such as that thousand-to-one ratio against the ‘Log Cabin Republicans’ I mentioned earlier). Doing so will increase your already-considerable rhetorical skill…but contains the danger that you might have to change your mind on certain political realities and fundamentals.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Actually, Roger, I’m not a big Liza, Judy or Barbara fan. Judy was the best out of the three but she’s no Edith Piaf, whom I adore. I like Nina Simone, Jane Olivor and, of course, Bette Midler. I love her so much I have her face tattooed on my left arm. My taste in music is quite varied but I always go back to Black Sabbath. Laguna Sunrise, War Pigs, Iron Man and Fairies Wear Boots — all classics.

    Music these days to me is noise. I would love to see music play a more important role in education. To me music opens the heart and soul and stimulates the mind into so many areas of creativity. Case in point, when I am working on a project for a client I always have music playing in the background. This afternoon’s selections were a variety of hits from Burton Cummings & The Guess Who.

    And, in keeping with the subject matter at hand, I would like to point out that many of the Florida Republicans I know love Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and anything disco. No wonder so many have a hard time looking at Florida GOP men as straight.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Silas, being Texan trumps being gay. Even gay texans are more manly than straight yankees.

    Are you talking about Texas lesbians, Dave? You do make a good point, though. I think most men outside the Northeast are more manly than Yankee males.

  • zingzing

    dave: “even gay texans are more manly than straight yankees.”

    say that in the bronx. yee-haw, cowboy! assless chaps!

  • zingzing

    silas: “Actually, Roger, I’m not a big Liza, Judy or Barbara fan. Judy was the best out of the three but she’s no Edith Piaf, whom I adore. I like Nina Simone, Jane Olivor and, of course, Bette Midler. I love her so much I have her face tattooed on my left arm. My taste in music is quite varied but I always go back to Black Sabbath. …Burton Cummings & The Guess Who… I would like to point out that many of the Florida Republicans I know love Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and anything disco.”

    by god, you ARE gay. (except for nina simone, of course, who is only not liked by the dead.) (and i like disco. wonderful genre if you dig deep enough into it.)

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Huh, zing? I detest Liza and Streisand. And I tolerate Judy. I may love Piaf but so does 99.999% of France. I’m listening to Charles Aznavour and Edith Piaf in a duet as I write.

    Now, Zing, you mention assless chaps AND liking Nina Simone and disco. Zing, are YOU gay? Please don’t tell me you love Madonna. I might become a Democrat.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I agree about one thing: Judy was the greatest.

    I still remember her Carnegie Hall performance, televised. Unforgettable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, haven’t read the whole thing, Silas. Edith was the original, but don’t forget it was also the magic of the French tongue. So Judy was as close to Edith as there can be – English rendition.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Piaf.

    Just look at the discography. Amazing.

    A male counterpart – Yves Montand.

    Definitely not Chevalier.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Silas,

    Do you have a UTube link to what you’re listening to?

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    No I don’t Roger. It’s not a bad idea though. I will have to investigate that one. In my instructions on what to do upon my death, I have requested that Piaf’s rendition of “Non, je ne regrette rien” be played as my ashes are disposed of.

  • zingzing

    silas: “Huh, zing? I detest Liza and Streisand. And I tolerate Judy. I may love Piaf but so does 99.999% of France. I’m listening to Charles Aznavour and Edith Piaf in a duet as I write.”

    it was more the bette middler bit (“of course”). (and a little bit black sabbath.)

    “Now, Zing, you mention assless chaps AND liking Nina Simone and disco. Zing, are YOU gay? Please don’t tell me you love Madonna. I might become a Democrat.”

    can’t a straight man like nina simone, disco and assless chaps? huh? well, i guess i don’t really have much of an opinion of assless chaps. that was more towards dave and his gay texans. but, i do like prince, who gets away with assless chaps. actually, i dunno if he got away with it or not, but prince is prince and he doesn’t play by the rules.

    i like madonna, although i think she’s been, with a notable exception or two, shit since the early 90s. that said, her debut is awesome and “like a prayer” (the album) is quite ambitious and chock full of great songs. so, yeah, i like madonna. love might be too strong a word, as she’s wildly inconsistent at being good and pretty well consistently bad recently.

    and disco has made a comeback, in case you haven’t been paying attention. and from your “Music these days to me is noise” bit, i assume you haven’t.

  • zingzing

    no.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, you’re not stupid – you know very well what the REAL reason almost certainly is why they won’t release the numbers…and even if they aren’t exaggerating, how does that compare to the 4 to 6 million gays there actually are in America? That’s about a thousand-to-one ratio, Dave.

    How does the membership of any specialized political group compare to the larger body of people with similar interests who aren’t joiners, Glenn? Do you think that ALL feminists are in NOW or that all religious conservatives join the AFA? All I can tell you is that at the Texas GOP convention the Log Cabin reception had a good sized crowd.

    You also posted: “Remember, at one point Giuliani was the GOP frontrunner in 2008 and he polled with majority support among gay voters. No Democrat has ever polled as high among gay voters in a presidential election.”

    References, please.

    I’ll see if I can find the polls again. I had them a couple of years ago. As I recall Giuliani polled highest with gay men while Hillary polled highest with lesbians.

    Including ‘lesser lights’ like Bush, Palin, and Jindal? Those ‘crazies’ (including the ones on platform committees) are in positions to speak for the majority of ALL Republicans, Dave…

    Bush and Palin both supported civil unions, as did McCain. And yes, I’d call them “lesser lights.” They’re hardly the ideological movers and shakers of the party, just meat puppets who seem electable.

    …and as long as the Republicans continue to ELECT those ‘crazies’ to those positions, they DO speak for the majority of ALL Republicans.

    I’m not a fan of Jindal, but Bush and Palin aren’t crazies despite their demonization by the left-wing press.

    (gratuitous lecturing ignored)

    Dave