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Q: What’s the Most Corrupt Nation on Earth?

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A: Ladies and gentlemen – the moment you’ve all been waiting for! Here are your runners-up for most corrupt nation on earth: weighing in at number 3, we have the former French colony Haiti (better luck next year, my friend). And it looks like the judges have awarded the #2 prize to Nigeria, Africa’s most populous country (go get ‘em, tiger). And now for #1 – the most corrupt nation on earth (drum roll please): beautiful Bangladesh! (well done, Prime Minister Khaleda Zia).

What we have just unveiled here are the rankings prepared by the nongovernmental watchdog group Transparency International. So how corrupt is our repeat victor, Bangladesh? Well, in the capital of Dhakar, you can barely walk a block without coming face-to-face with graft: residents have to pay the postman to get their mail; bus drivers pay cops to let them drive their routes; victims of crime have to pay the cops to have someone arrested; doctors take bribes to dispense medicine; meter readers get their palms greased for keeping energy bills low; even stray canines slip dog-catchers cash to steer clear of the pound (okay, that last one we made up, but you get the idea).

It’s estimated that 6% of the nation’s GNP is spent on corruption; not that hard to believe when you realize that the unemployment rate hovers at around 70%. So get ready to place your bets for next year’s “most corrupt nation on earth” contest. The smart money’s on Bangladesh; most likely they even bribed their way to lock it.

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  • Arch Conservative

    Wow what a loaded question.

    I know that very shortly all of the far left America hating riffraff will be posting saying that the answer to your question is the USA. So I’ll offer a preemptive collective FUCK YOU to all of those vermin.

    The USA is not even the most corrupt nation in North America. That honor obviously goes to Mexico, The third world shithole [Personal attack deleted].

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Actually, Bing, The USA is “deteriorating”. Two years ago, when I wrote about the then latest Transparency International Corruption Index, it was the 17th least corrupt country. Now, in the 2006 Corruption Index, it is down to 20th place. Oh the shame!

  • Arch Conservative

    Well is still has such a long way to go to catch up to the level of curruption in Mexico, it’s neighbor.

    The thing that irks me most is that mexican officials have publicly made statements telling the US that we cannot build a wall or attempt to keep people from entering the US illegally from Mexico.

    Can you imagine the uproar there would be id prominent American officials told Canadians what they could or could not do on thier own borders?

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    The USA is a great country, Arch, and one to be proud of, but telling other countries what to do? That’s one of your politicos’ favourite pastimes and they do it all the time! Of course, it’s true for all other countries too, but the USA does have a very powerful and influential voice to go with its immodesty…

  • moonraven

    And can you imagine what Canada would do if the US started building a wall on the common border?

    A little perspective, please–even from those whose heads are in their rectum.

    Mexico has nothing on the former soviet republics and most of the Middle eastern countries in terms of corruption. I am sure there are folks here that will now try harder to be more corrupt, but…those are the breaks.

  • Zedd

    I think these are countries that are corrupt within their own boarders. I am shocked that there is a place on this planet that is more corrupt than Nigeria. SCARY!!

    Is there a ranking for must internationally corrupt?

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    I figured it’d be Kyruptistan.

  • P. Marlowe

    As if any of us, in any country can feel good because we’re only ranked XX on the list…

    Let’s not forget that in America (a little present for you Arch, I know you’ve been dying to type another string of explatives) a lot of “corruption” is in essense written into the regulations of our fair cities, counties, states and nation. It is euphamistically called “doing business”.

    We all know that Cheney’s old employer is techincally doing nothing wrong with moving to Dubai. And I’m sure they haven’t “broken” the law in Iraq, not with the foul meat they served our men and women serving there, nor with the billions or our tax dollars gone missing.

    There is a vast number of things that happen each day in this country that are morally and ethically wrong but “perfectly” legal. How’s that?

    Wasn’t it odd to watch federal prosecutors slave away for YEARS in order to finally be able to garner SOME convictions in the Enron scandal? It was glaringly apparent to every observer with an ounce of moral and ethical fiber that outright “crimes” had been committed. Yet so much of what was done was “technically” not breaking this law or that… Why? Because of laws that were put into place by powerful men with vested interests in companies such as Enron…

    We’re all on the damn list. And it’s a ridiculous list. It’s the equivalent of one leper being ever so proud that he has the least leprosy in the whole colony…

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Lots of corruption in Canada too – including Quebec. Mexico takes the cake in North America. Interesting points by Arch and P. Marlowe. There’s certainly a lot of wink,wink. Some countries mask it better than others. They go under the civilized category. Still, relative to its size and strength America is tame.

  • http://bacalar.blogspot.com Howard Dratch

    Arch is always down on Mexico. Here Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Haiti get the prizes and the bribes and, instead of heaping glory on them, he turns on Mexico.

    I worked in Chicago in ’67 in a law firm friendly with Mayor Daley and the Mob. They prepared me for Mexico. I learned, young college student that I was, how to fold bills into little squares that fit into the palm of my hand. A valuable talent in some places. Even in the good ole USA.

    The big question is the expectations of cultures. We, in America, are saved by the expectation of honesty. We know it won’t be universal but we keep hoping. These other countries like Pakistan, Haiti, Cameroon, Mexico do not have such expectations. Theirs is that their systems will work because the machinations of society are lubricated with the grease of modern life — money and power. It works until something comes along that bribes can’t manipulate — Hurricane Katrina, for example. Then the corruption that didn’t prepare and can’t respond becomes public — but the lives have already been lost.

    At least they expect it. It always comes as a shock to us.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    In the US, bribery of a government official is a serious crime (as is accepting a bribe if you are a government official). However, in scores of countries (including Mexico) it is the normal (and accepted) way of doing business.

    Western countries, with the Western sense of fairness and democracy, and the Western concept of the rule-of-law, are not perfect, but are much better off. Just look at the map!

    The US, Canada, Australia, France, New Zealand, the UK, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland, Austria, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Uruguay, and Chile are the least corrupt countries in the world. AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE COUNTRIES IS A PART OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!

    Now, I don’t know how many of you go to University, but I can assure you that a large number (probably a majority) of the professors there will do their best to indoctrinate their students into an anti-Western worldview. Our Universities are doing their best to churn out brainwashed young “skulls full of mush” that are predisposed to hating their own society and culture. This study is one reason why we should fight that.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    I noticed France in your list but no Italy, RJ. Italy is a strange case indeed and corruption may be in the style described by Hpward (great thoughts Mr. Dratch) and yourself. However, Italy does adhere to the rule of law when it counts. In many ways, France and Italy (Spain also) practice the same form of Western Latin corruption. Italy is also a highly sophisticated and civilized society. Lists will never show this. Also, I would submit there is a light percpetion trompe d’oeil. We are condtioned to think that Northern Europe is less vulnerabl to corruption and in many cases (and on average) it is. However, Belgium, Holland, Germany and England have all been hit with scandals and corruption over the years that would make headlines had it been some “other” country.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Arch is always down on Mexico. Here Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Haiti get the prizes and the bribes and, instead of heaping glory on them, he turns on Mexico.”

    I was just using Mexico as a comparison for the US in North America Howard. I’m not always downing Mexico. Most of the time I’ve forgotten that Mexico even exists. I just find it amusing how Moonraven constantly compares Mexico to the US and says that Mexico is such a better nation in every respect. Anyone who is not an anti-American scumbag themself can see that Moonraven is damaged goods.

  • moonraven

    No damaged goods here, cretinous cataleptic Arch.

    You’re down on everything that has LIFE because you are a dead downer.

    There ain’t no life in the US.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    Now, I don’t know how many of you go to University, but I can assure you that a large number (probably a majority) of the professors there will do their best to indoctrinate their students into an anti-Western worldview. Our Universities are doing their best to churn out brainwashed young “skulls full of mush” that are predisposed to hating their own society and culture. This study is one reason why we should fight that.

    I think you highly mistake an introduction into an objective world view as an attack. We are ethnocentric by nature. In other words, we are wired to think that everything that we do is best. What an education does is open your mind. It introduces you to other ways that things are done. It tells you other people’s perspective. It also tells you the whys as apposed to simply cheer leading. Those who don’t have a strong social science aptitude don’t understand that.

    Also with our history of destroying other cultures because of our diminished understanding of those society, it is imperative that we become well educated regarding who we are in relation to the rest of the world.

  • Zedd

    I think that the Japanese would not see themselves as Western.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    I find it interesting that the countries that you list have a history of trampling other people in a genocidal way. Perhaps this is something to explore.

  • STM

    Zedd: “I think that the Japanese would not see themselves as Western.”

    No, and hoo-bloody-ray to that. Any country that sells what it does in public vending machines should be ostracised by the civilised world until it replaces them with chocolate bars.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro nicolo

    “I think you highly mistake an introduction into an objective world view as an attack..”

    I agree with some of what you said, Zedd….but…

    If you believe University/College to be “objective” then I have some usable land to sell you in Nunavut. ;<)

    Some of the stupidest things I have ever heard in class came from the mouths of over articulate educators who are too cool for Western culture.

    They teach, not all mind you, intellectual relativism.

    That’s why I will always appreciate one Prof. Hermann (God rest his soul). Not that I had any student/teacher relationship with him (he was a cool, callous German thinker) but his approach was sooo refreshing. In other words, he had no qualms with telling it like it is – if your counry sucked he said it – and it made all the liberal/do-gooding pea brains squirm like little worms. I loved it.

    As for us destroying cultures, it is interesting that apparently only the West has done this according to some when in fact cultures – rightly or wrongly – of all types on all continents have been colliding and conquering one another for thousands of years. It’s not just a nation-state phenomena – it’s a human evolution one. We’re all a product of races. Cripes, Europe is nothing but a clash of civilizations. An Italian literally has Celtic, Norman, Moor, Lombard, Gothic, Etruscan, Roman etc. running through his or her vein. That blood was not created by treaties alone but by war also. There is no pure race. So, should Italians – or any other culture for that matter- complain?

    What is most appaling is that now people who feel they were conquered have the right to use this for political purposes/gain – see Mexican immigration and the illegals holding up signs about American genocide. American history is not perfect but how dare some throw it in their faces? In my opinion, it’s a pointless discussion with no teeth.

    One last thing: what do I know?

  • Arch Conservative

    Allesandro……the more of your posts I read the more of an appreciation I have for you.

    You seem capable of being objective and honest in your posts, something many on BC are entirely incapable of.

    You’re a breath of fresh air and I look foward to reading more of your posts.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Funny you don’t mention Singapore in your list of Least Corrupted, RJ. The survey that Mental Floss mentions here–the one that ranks Bangladesh as the most corrupt–ranks Singapore as 5th on its “Least Corrupt” list.

    The top 4, btw, are Iceland, Finland, New Zealand, and Denmark.

    Obviously Western civilization is better represented on that list, but it’s only fair to point out that there’s obviously a model of uncorrupted government in the East as well, and that not EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE COUNTRIES that are least corrupted, is a part of Western civilization.

  • moonraven

    Just for the record,

    ALL EDUCATION IS POLITICAL.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Thanks Arch.

    Moonraven, not according to the Ancient Greeks and Italian Humanists. Second-rate insitutions make it political.

  • moonraven

    The quote was from Paulo Friere.

    Show me a situation where education is NOT political.

    Who decides what should be taught and for which academic credit wil be given?

    Think about it–before you shoot off your mouth.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    I learn to shoot my mouth off form the best – you’ve made it an art form.

    See? Was it so hard to cite something? Something tells me if you soften up, perhaps readers can learn some thing from you. You’re so busy huffing and puffing no one cares to care about what you say.

    I meant that to them education was best to be taught free of politics.

  • Arch Conservative

    Alessandro……….don’t even bother with Moonraven. She’s stuck on bitter for life.

    Somewhere, sometime ago, someone did something very bad to Moonraven and she’s determined to make everyone that she comes into contact with pay for it.

  • Zedd

    STM

    I am certain that there was comedy in what you posted. I am just to medicated today to see it. But I laughed anyway because I think I am supposed too. Something about you is just adorable.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo They teach, not all mind you, intellectual relativism

    Perhaps you should expound on what you mean by “intellectual relativism”. The way that I understand what you are saying I can only be tempted to say “what’s wrong with that?” I think that our experiences are so finite and our tendency to look at the world from our vantage point is highly limiting. It takes people who have been exposed or better yet amerced in other cultures to understand just how limited our understanding of the human experience is or can be.

    Those who seek a constant applause in order to feel significant will view the illumination of other complex modes of experiencing life as an assault on them and the view that they hold of their superiority.

    If you grew up in a Western culture and know what you know, why would you go to University to be told about it. Grade school education is good for that sort of enculturation but after adulthood one seeks to expand and see the world DIFFERENTLY. If you seek cheer-leading go to business school they are good for that. A liberal arts education is there to teach you what you don’t know about the human experience.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo

    I do appreciate your objectivity. It is refreshing.

  • STM

    Thanks Zedd … you get the bloody thumbs-up from me, don’t worry. Are you not feeling so good?

  • STM

    BTW Zedd: The dirty buggers sell used AND unwashed schoolgirls’ knickers in vending machines. I can’t believe anyone would sell them at all, let alone out of a vending machine … although if you were a reader of the London Sun, they could come in handy – you’d buy a pair of the knickers, pull up your collar and put sunglasses on, then buy the paper, looking around quickly before slipping the newspaper inside them so no one could see it :)

  • moonraven

    You still don’t get it.

    Answer for yourself the question I asked about who decides.

    Then maybe you will see that education is NEVER free from politics.

    I don’t expect you to learn anything from me. As an educator, I have noticed that folks only value what they pay for–therefore the folks who learn from me apparently are the ones paying those big tuition bills.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro nicolo

    Zedd,

    A liberal arts education is there to teach you what you don’t know about the human experience.

    Absolutely. And that includes knowing more about Western culture. I fear, on our path to learn about other cultures, we have neglected to continue to learn about Western heritage. It’s almost as if we act as though we know everything we need to know about – say the U.S. – and stagnate from there. In other, words you can never cease from learning more about who you are and where you are from.

    Ok, I’m going from the hip here so humor me.

    As for the intellectual relativism, I had begun to explain and thought I was going overboard.

    How best to describe it? Hmm. Moral relativism, for example, equates George Bush to Adolf Hitler – without much thought to objective fact and verification. It allows for notions of morality to be personal. Up to a point it is, but morality is very much a social thing. The problem is further compounded by the reality that we are taught to believe we are all unique; ergo my conception of what crime is differs from yours. Yet, our legal frameworks hinge upon how the collective views things. Moral relativism weeds out any clear conception we have of, say, good and evil. Sounds convoluted but think it through to its logical end. It can’t be good.

    Intellectual relativism does the same thing except with education – where politics (as, gulp, Moonraven says though I will not be as emphatic about it. I will use political correctness here) has infiltrated what is supposed to be a place free of it.

    In a way, it’s very much like revisionism. Now that we know more about ourselves we go back and “rewrite” history. So, Occidental culture looks horrible in this backdrop. Hence, we look to other cultures to show how bad – or great – we are. E.g.,English culture is no better than, as an example, Malaysian history.

    In terms of the revisionism, I’m not talking about competent academics who find new sources of information about a long studied event. Academics are always posting and presenting new takes on old figures and events. It what makes us evolve and helps to enlighten. Some are crackpots and others are not. However, rampant, runaway unguarded revisionism just takes a piece of history out of context (America supported dictators. Pulled out of the context to which they did this, yes it looks awful but when you fully understand their position (rightly or wrongly) it should make you ponder and relaize that we don’t operate in a simple world) and superimposes it on contemporary knowledge and everyone is impressed by it. Duh, any jackass can do that. When asked and faced to present and debate such findings – that’s when the cracks begin to show as it can’t withstand the scrutiny – think Michael Moore; not that he’s an academic. Except he uses editing as a trompe d’oeil.

    So to get back to what you interpreted IR to be, I would say it is a big deal – assuming I make sense. I think that if you automatically limit yourself then you are not fit to be educated. Higher education is meant to circumnavigate this. This is where intellectual relativism comes in. We want to see the other side so much we forget who we are. We are all products of our environment. This is natural. Nothing wrong with that either.

    Feel free to pick at the holes. The IR thing is a work in progress.

  • moonraven

    Politics did not “infiltrate” education. It determines it.

    You refuse to look at the question which I asked you: WHO decides what is taught and given credit for?

    My undergraduate students here in Mexico as well as in the Middle East are able to answer that question–yet you either cannot or refuse to.

    So I will do it for you.

    The folks in POWER decide. That’s what departments of education of governments do. You cannot start up a school anywhere and have it accredited without coming up with plans of studies/curricula which are either approved or not by politicians and bureaucrats.

    What we academics defend as academic freedom/libertad de cáthedra is pretty much a mirage. Only those of us with balls will put our jobs on the line to PERMIT students to see that they are not being educated within a free context at all.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo

    I think we are on the same page as to what you meant by IR.

    I don’t see what is wrong with that position. Intellect is weighed by the processes that have taken place over time. For instance, the study of logic (being good at inferring, to state it simply) at least the understanding of it, evolved over time. Man has always used logic. Some are more inclined to use it better based on their natural ability.

    Believe it or not, in some cultures the “Socratic Method” is applied as part of normal interaction within the culture. Systematic logic would not be labeled as such because it is just BEING to them.

    When Westerners first encountered other cultures they saw maybe the lack of clothing and applied their interpretation of the world and asserted their superiority and civility (they came from cold climates where if you striped naked, you probably were intending to have sex). They did not have the skills to understand the people (language, morays, intricate subtext, etc) So they drew really wrong conclusions. Those conclusions supported the subjugation of those people, the pillaging of their land and our wealth. It is those miscalculations that support our current economic situation today.

    Over time we began to understand the effects of ethnocentrism on evaluating a situation. We began to enter situations as students as we should and we learned that we are not superior. We began to understand just how well adapted and apt other cultures are.

    So yes intellect is quite relative.

    Western superiority is White Supremacy. It is highly prevalent and is assumed by most Whites. It is off course fallacious and stagnates the evolution of the human species. It is foolish and embarrassing when really considered. However it is tolerated by non-Europeans much to the ignorance of confident Whites.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo

    MR makes an excellent point. What is relevant is determined by those in power, regardless as to whether they are qualified to make that decision.

    As for students not getting an opportunity to learn about Western culture, you must be joking. Most languages that are taught in a University setting are European languages. American history is the history of what happened on this land when Europeans set foot on in. Indigenous people are only dealt with as far as how they encountered Europeans. Africans are not dealt with except in the context of how they affected Europeans.

    The entire view of the world is from a European vantage point. We study Marx, Mead, Compte, Durkheim, Weber, Montaigne and Rousseau. Very rarely do you encounter courses that explore Sun Tzu or other great thinkers that are outside of the European relm. We over complicate the European experience. Learning the details of every subgroup within each country and throw a broad brush over similarly different groups within Asia, Africa, Island cultures and Native American people.

    Your assertion is laughable but dialouging with you is enjoyable. I cant believe you are an American.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Indigenous people are only dealt with as far as how they encountered Europeans.”

    That might be because they had no written languages, and therefore have no documented history…OOPS! Was that politically-incorrect of me to say???

  • Zedd

    RJ

    Stop the drama. No one is policing those insignificant statements. You over value your contributions.

    Various indigenous people have ways of relaying their history and you know that. Also archaeological finds give us lots of information about every civilization.

    You see if you study lets say Native American history, the information is there. However what we call HISTORY is actually European American history. That is problematic. It’s insulting.

  • Zedd

    STM

    Still convalescing. Hence the many posts.

    You sure are knowledgeable about the underwear caper….

    Should I be worried? Are my fantasies about you going to be dashed down the drain?

  • STM

    Zedd: Lol. No, I just think the Japanese are a dirty bunch of buggers when it comes to that kind of stuff. They don’t seem to worry though, at all. Me? I’m not into schoolgirls .. I prefer my women more mature, physically AND mentally. 30 and over, because as we all know, there’s no substitute for experience, life and or otherwise – and that applies to just about anything you care to name.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Zedd, all valid points. In terms of students “not learning” Western culture. I must be clearer. Of course we learn it. Indeed, we shold learn more about Sun Tzu (funny I am in the process of reading him again) or Khalil Gibran etc.

    I didn’t mean it in the way that you intepreted and that’s my fault. I meant more in the context that now that we are more open to other cultures and their experiences we go back and reread and misudnerstand our own history. I’m not sure if I’m making this clear.

    Hope to make this less laughable. Like I said, I knew there were holes in it.

    Moonraven, finally you show some reason behind the needless name calling. I was not going to enagge you if you didn’t enter a civil discussion.

    That said, #34 sounded rational and on this point I can’t say that I disagree. Here in Canada, our Univerisites are litte too close to political parties for my comfort.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    “You see if you study lets say Native American history, the information is there. However what we call HISTORY is actually European American history. That is problematic. It’s insulting.”

    Zedd, be careful here. Maybe of the great findngs of other cultures came at the hands of European/American scholars. It’s not insulting; just a reality. I doubt any of these people are out to insult. In fact, they are out to improve our understanding of man and get close to the truth – whatever that may be. They just happen to be Euro/Amerc. You do realize the finest writings on many cultures come from the Euro/American edcational tradition. This is not being euro-centric, right? I just don’t see this as problematic. Jared Diamon did a great job of expalining why Euro/American culture is so far advacned – it has nothing to do with being genetically superiour (and I doubt many intelligent people believe this) but rather a multitude of factors and reasons.

    My turn to say that’s laughable. :<)

  • Clavos

    Alessandro writes:

    Jared Diamon did a great job of expalining why Euro/American culture is so far advacned – it has nothing to do with being genetically superiour (and I doubt many intelligent people believe this) but rather a multitude of factors and reasons.

    Are you referring to “Guns, Germs and Steel,” Alessandro? That is an awesome work.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Yes. Collapse as well.

  • moonraven

    Alessandro: Condescend to someone else. I will present my arguments any way I damn please.

    It’s quite obvious that you don’t even understand what I wrote.

    Again, no surprise.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    An example of what I mean:

    The indigenous people of North Sentinel Island in the Andaman Islands of India.

    Absolutely nothing is known of these people OTHER THAN what has been reported by “outsiders” (Europeans and Indians).

    What is known:

    – They are still in the Stone Age
    – They have no written language
    – They are polygamous
    – They do their best to kill any “outsider” who even comes close to their island, unless the “outsider” offers gifts and then quickly retreats
    – They murdered countless shipwreck victims in earlier centuries, in particularly cruel ways
    – They also kill certain animals in a sadistic, ritualistic fashion before eating them

    Cite

    Now, you can try to blame this “negative portrayal” on Western culture, or Europeans, or whoever. But until these savages stop trying to kill everyone who doesn’t look like them (racism?), and develop a written language of their own, that’s all we’ve got.

    Too bad, so sad…

  • Zedd

    RJ

    They are who they are. It’s not any less. Going to the grocery store and having a microwave doesn’t make you any better than a person who clears their land (using slash and burn methods), farms it and cooks on an open fire where they have to cut the timber themselves.

    We go through 12yrs of education and come out knowing very little, go to college and remember smatterings, sweat to attain a career so that we can put food on the table and have quality time with our friends and family and take vacations in places where indigenous people live in (calling it paradise or “this is the life”).

    You’ve made my original point.

  • Zedd

    As for the natives of the Adaman Islands, I have done a little independent study on this population.

    Your very tiny and irrational claim of racism on their part is shameful. Are you a liar now RJ? Were you hoping that no one knew anything about these people?

    These people have had interaction with the outside world in the past and have experienced illness and the well known results of European intervention that all other people have experienced. They however stopped the interaction early on.

    During the Tsunami it was feared that they may have disappeared but it seems as though they have survived.

    Their traditions are passed on orally through an individual who is believed to have divine power. The history is recited from one generation to the next. The inspired person has the right to make adjustments as he is lead.

    There are some Indian scientists who have had some contact with this population in recent years.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo

    Perspective is an interesting thing is it not? It is only when you are at the receiving end of the misinformation about your group that it is a problem.

    I wouldn’t expect you to see what has been misrepresented about the entire globe outside of Europeans to be problematic. The misrepresentations actually tell YOU just how great YOU are. Its only natural.

    Ah I see now that you are Canadian. The puzzle piece fits.

  • Zedd

    RJ #48 was posted to you. Sorry about not addressing you. Its rude to respond at large to a post that you took the time to record.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    I will take a look at Jared Diamon.

  • Zedd

    Nicolo

    We want to see the other side so much we forget who we are.

    Who “we” are is who we have always been. Just people trying to survive. Working, eating, loving and sleeping. There have been remarkable people throughout history but as a civilization, we are just people who are riding the wave of accomplishment by others really. If we are truthful.

    I love it when I read a skinhead publication which talks about “we”, when this individual more than likely came from a million generations of unproductive individuals and yet benefits greatly from the works of men like Einstein. It’s rather silly.

  • Nancy

    Zedd – STM is ‘adorable’ because he’s an Ozzie (Australian); & he writes well, too! You should read his articles on life in Oz. I wish he’d write more (hint hint hint, STM). There’s just something about Ozzies … maybe it’s the hint of rakishness inherited from their forebears…? ;) Hope you’re feeling better today.

    Arch, you jumped the gun. It would seem that the only one on here who argues for the US to be paramount in corruption is MR. I think that (current WH administration aside) actually the averge US citizens of ALL levels are pretty honest & straightforward in spite of our dear gang of thugs, weasels, & slimebags of both parties in congress & the WH … and even THEM we EXPECT honesty & honor from … altho they never deliver, being morally bankrupt themselves. I would say in general, US culture is outstandingly honest & incorrupt, all things considered, & I would say even the lefties on BC (except for MR of course) would agree with that, in spite of your dire predictions of their predilictions.

    Yes – Alessandro IS a pleasure to read. Very thoughtful in general.

  • MCH

    Re #48;
    “Your very tiny and irrational claim of racism on their part is shameful. Are you a liar now RJ?”

    Zedd,
    The answer to your question is: No, he’s been caught lying on BC before.

  • moonraven

    Nancy,

    I am beginning to think you are psychotic. Would you like to quote where I posted that the US was number one in corruption. If you learn to READ, you will see that I did post about corruption in MEXICO, the MIDDLE EAST and the FORMER SOVIET REPUBLICS.

    I really find your shooting off your mouth without basis offensive–as well as your coy little “hints” about what you would like to read.

    Get a library card.

  • Clavos

    I really find your shooting off your mouth without basis offensive

    Bwahahahahhaha!!

    Pot, meet kettle…

  • moonraven

    Clavos now talks to himself.

    I didn’t think he was bright enough to be schizophrenic.

  • Zedd

    You two are funny and totally obsessed with one another!! While its wacko, its also entertaining for the rest of us.

  • Zedd

    Arch

    I think a lot of atrocities over time have been committed in the name of the American people, however Americans in general are some of the kindest people on earth.

  • moonraven

    I assume that you are only talking about the US–not the continent of America.

    By WHOSE standards are you some of the kindest people on earth? I have found folks in EVERY other country that I have visited–and that’s a fair number of countries–to be much kinder and more generous–folks who have very little but will share it with virtual strangers.

    If you were kind, maybe you would not be DESPISED by the majority of the people on this planet. But you ARE NOT, and your government reflects the mean-spiritedness that is so key to the UGLY American.

    Folks from the US apparently spend all their time looking at the world as if it were a mirror in which they are the beautiful queen but really they are just the ugly drama queen.

    I really can’t believe you people!

  • Zedd

    Clavos and Nicolo

    I did read a talk by Jared Diamond regarding “Why Did Human History Unfold Differently On Different Continents For The Last 13,000 Years?” His conclusions seem like common sense. It amazing that his results would be ground breaking to many. Also I am not sure why he categorizes himself is simply a historian. He actually argues for his discipline to be looked upon as a science. It is. Its called Anthropology. Perhaps I missed something.

    Nicolo, it seems that he is saying what I was suggesting. His being of European decent doesn’t matter. Its the information that he is decimating as a teacher.

    I haven’t read his book. Does he touch on weather as a motivation for moving about and creating more stratification?

  • Zedd

    MR

    Are you addressing me? Do I intimidate you? Please if you want to dialogue lets.

    Now what people are you talking about?

  • moonraven

    Zedd, You do not intimidate me. I was simply calling you a liar for trying to present folks from the US as kind. That should have been obvious.

    I suppose you took that pile of stinking propaganda from Bush Padre’s campaign speeches?

    Kinder–and gentler, too–as when he massacred 5,000 Panamanians when Noriega refused to run guns for Oliver North.

    And then there were the 100,000 Iraquis.

    His diabolical son has beaten those figures now by what–7 or 10 times over?

    Great country you have there, kind ones.

  • Zedd

    MR – I am glad that you addressed me.

    I think that it is impossible to lie about a subjective concept such as kindness.

    I know you read my post. You seem to be supporting my contribution. Many atrocities have been performed in the name of the American people. Had I said that Americans are some of the most knowledgeable and well read people on the planet than you would have a reason to violently disagree.

    Because Americans don’t tend to know whats going on, evil is perpetuated in their name and they just don’t know it. It was appalling just how clueless most people were about what Iraq and the politics of that region. The powers that be took advantage of that.

    Now don’t you think that the word lie was a bit extreme?

  • STM

    Zedd wrote: “As for the natives of the Adaman Islands, I have done a little independent study on this population.”

    I wish they were a bit more forthcoming, but only to surfers :) as there are some of the best waves on the planet up there in the Andamans, and no bastard can surf them because the Indian government won’t allow you in the region. Us surfies would go in quietly, surf a few waves, and leave just as quietly … leaving nothing but our footprints on the sand. If the locals got into a bit of surfing as a result as well, they’d be the luckiest buggers on the planet. Imagine having that piece of paradise all to yourself …

  • STM

    And thumbs up to you, Nancy! Thanks. I promise I will write more.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Your very tiny and irrational claim of racism on their part is shameful. Are you a liar now RJ?

    I dunno. Is it a lie to state that the indigenous people of North Sentinel Island threaten to attack any and all outsiders (in other words, anybody who is not a part of their “tribe” or “race”)? Because it sure looks that way from the book that I cited in my previous post. And if the book is incorrect, the authors of the book are liars, not me…

    Were you hoping that no one knew anything about these people?

    You clearly don’t (see below)…

    These people have had interaction with the outside world in the past and have experienced illness and the well known results of European intervention that all other people have experienced. They however stopped the interaction early on.

    No, you’re erroneously conflating the indigenous tribes of North Andaman Island, Middle Andaman Island, South Andaman Island, and Little Andaman Island with the indigenous people of North Sentinel Island (which were the people I was originally talking about). The tribes of the former have suffered from European diseases because of a great deal of contact. The tribe of the latter has had virtually no contact with Europeans/Indians, except those times when they killed shipwreck victims or drunken fishermen.

    During the Tsunami it was feared that they may have disappeared but it seems as though they have survived.

    Yes, and we know this because they ATTACKED THE RESCUE HELICOPTER India sent after the Tsunami…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Their traditions are passed on orally through an individual who is believed to have divine power. The history is recited from one generation to the next.”

    Right. None of the Andaman peoples have a written language, but instead have an “oral history.” And so it’s all pretty much fabricated bullshit. Read this:

    One of the very few shipwrecks about which details are known took place in November 1844. Two ships coming from opposite ends of the world and both full of British troops on their way to India were wrecked within sight of each other. The double-wreck took place on the east coast of John Lawrence island in Ritchie’s archipelago. The story bears telling in some detail because, apart from its unique happy end, it throws light on the many tragedies that must have taken place on those very same shores before.

    The British ship Briton, an American-built barque with 431 soldiers, their dependants and crew aboard, had left Sydney on 12th August 1844 on the way to Calcutta as part of a larger fleet of four ships. After an uneventful trip via Timor and Singapore, the Briton reached the Andaman sea in early November. The captain had expected the north-east monsoon normal at this time of the year but instead he found quite untypical and highly variable winds. The unpredictable winds increased to gale force on 10th November and the following day to hurricane force. For 50 hours the Briton was tossed about and battered by the raging sea, its masts gone, its superstructure reduced to matchwood. The crew had to pump for their lives with the ship threatening to break up at any moment. But miraculously it held. Nobody aboard had the faintest idea where they were when shortly after midnight on 12th November and with the storm still howling at full force, the ship struck what must have been a reef and was then lifted over the obstacle by a gigantic wave. Only then did it begin to break up. Sitting in total darkness behind the shelter of the unseen reef, the crew felt the violence of the waves abate and their vessel slowly settling into something soft.

    The barque Runnymede had sailed from Gravesend in England on 20th June 1844 with 200 soldiers, dependants and crew aboard, bound for Calcutta. The journey had been very difficult from the start and contrary winds had delayed the ship so much that stores of food and fresh water were running low. Instead of going straight to Calcutta, the Runnymede had to make for Penang in Malaya to replenish. It was surprised by the same storm and went through much the same experience as the Briton. On 11th November, during a brief lull in the storm in daytime, the master of the Runnymede spotted two other battered ships in the distance, one of which may have been the Briton. At 0130 in the morning of the 12th November the Runnymede was thrown high up on what the crew thought was a reef.

    At daybreak, the winds abated and the crews of the two ships found themselves not only in the middle of a large mangrove swamp but less than 500 m (550 yards) from each other. They quickly made contact and found to their delight that their surviving stores complemented each other well. They combined forces, built a causeway through the swamp to the shore and moved themselves and their stores to dry land. Two drowned aborigines and their wrecked canoe were found washed up on the beach and were buried. The havoc caused by the storm extended over the entire island. Trees were stripped of their leaves with even the oldest and largest lying in a impenetrable jumble of fallen trunks. On their 9th day ashore, the shipwrecks met their first living Andamanese: crew searching for sea-shells were attacked and four wounded by arrow shots. The attackers disappeared into the maze of fallen trees when soldiers went after them. The captain’s report described them as “quite naked, regular savages and no doubt cannibals.” Later, some aborigines were spotted near the wrecks, apparently trying to collect iron. When the crew tried to establish friendlier relations by hanging a jacket on a pole and making gestures for them to take it, the natives tore the jacket down and trampled on it before attacking the would-be peace-makers. Camp fires and large numbers of natives were observed in December gathering on a neighbouring island – hopefuls expecting a good loot. Repeated attacks followed but all were frustrated by the large number of soldiers available for defence. It was noted that the native seemed to be familiar with the effects of firearms: they vanished as soon as they spotted someone carrying one while they attacked anybody who went unarmed.

    The crews of the two ships had prepared and provisioned the long-boat of the Runnymede. On 25th November, the boat, christened Hope, set off with a crew of eight to get help. During the following three weeks, the shipwrecked company kept itself busy fighting off native attacks, hunting, fishing, exploring, digging wells, erecting sheds as well as keeping the make-shift tents as waterproof as could be managed. If it was not for the uncertainty about the Hope, the whole would have been an adventure-picnic. There was even time to court-martial some unfortunates who had been caught pilfering beer from the Briton’s stores. One exploring party to a neighbouring island discovered bundles of pigs’ skulls tied together in heaps and stones suspended from tree branches by rattan. This was correctly taken to be some religious ceremony of the natives, none of whom were sighted.

    On 15th December 1845, minutes after a severe earthquake had shaken up the encampment and only hours after the decision to half the rations in case the wait should be a long one, a sail was spotted on the horizon. This turned out to be the George Swinton with the empty Hope in tow. The Hope had indeed reached Mergui on 6th December and alerted the British authorities. Its crew was exhausted but well and had been taken to Moulmein for recuperation. At the same time, the George Swinton was dispatched ahead of a whole fleet of other rescue ships. On Sunday, 5th January 1845, 55 days after the shipwreck, the last survivors had been taken off the hostile island. At once, the aborigines swarmed all over the two wrecks that had so long been denied to them.

    Fifty years later the remains of the Briton were still visible in the form of three anchors, some brass bolts and the ship’s ballast which appeared as a tiny island of stones rising slightly above the level of the swamp. No trace of the Runnymede remained. A tablet set up for the dead by the shipwrecked crews had disappeared but steps cut into the rock and leading to the encampment were still visible.

    Most unusually, we also have the Andamanese side of the story. The tribe occupying Ritchie’s archipelago was that of the Aka-Bale, later regarded as the least aggressive and most docile of all Andamanese tribes. Thirty years after the events described, British officers questioned members of the tribe and were told that they, the heroic Aka-Bale, had fought valiantly with the soldiers, had killed many of them, had driven them from their ships and taken everything they wanted. A generation later memories of a specific event were still very much alive. That the tale had grown in the telling and with it the heroics of their ancestors and the glory of their deeds is, of course, a truly primitive trait quite unknown among people of higher civilizations.

    This is a witty remark by the author, but what’s left unsaid is an important fact: Without written records to tell us what REALLY happened, we are left with nothing but “oral histories,” which are notorious for being complete and total bullshit (in all cultures).

  • moonraven

    Good for them.

    I am NOT buying the kindness of folks from the US.

    Ignorance of the law–and of the world–is no excuse for committing crimes and being a sunofabitch.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “RJ #48 was posted to you. Sorry about not addressing you. Its rude to respond at large to a post that you took the time to record.”

    Okay, I see that you are being polite and reasonable now, so I shall be polite and reasonable in kind. I honestly appreciate that.

    You DO have a point about the history of “indigenous peoples” being written by Europeans, and therefore being “culturally-biased” in that regard. But MY point is, the ONLY written record we have is FROM Europeans, because the indigenous people never developed written languages. And “oral histories” are inherently inaccurate and embellished, which leads to a cultural-bias of its own.

    I sincerely wish the indigenous peoples of the world had developed their own written languages, so that we could truly see “their side of the story.” But unfortunately, the only options we have are:

    1) Read the European written and documented histories, taken with a grain of salt

    or

    2) Believe the “oral history” myths of the indigenous peoples, taken with the entire salt shaker!

    Both have value, but I believe option #1 is more empirical, and therefore more likely closer to the “true reality” than option #2.

    (Unless, of course, you’re a post-modernist, and don’t believe in objectivity OR empiricism…)

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “The answer to your question is: No, he’s been caught lying on BC before.”

    Care to back up that defamatory claim, or should I pursue legal action against you (and maybe your employer, the Helena Independent Record) instead?

  • MCH

    “Care to back up that defamatory claim…”
    – RJ Elliott

    Sure. How about your lie that you apologized “10 times” for comparing Max Cleland to a gigantic thalidamide baby, when in fact you apologized only twice.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Care to back up that defamatory claim…”
    – RJ Elliott

    Sure. How about your lie that you apologized “10 times” for comparing Max Cleland to a gigantic thalidamide baby, when in fact you apologized only twice.

    ROTFL!!!

  • zingzing

    you’re both stupid.

  • STM

    From RJ’s story about the Briton, setting out from Sydney: “There was even time to court-martial some unfortunates who had been caught pilfering beer from the Briton’s stores.”

    That must have been the Australians, who in truth were probably only “borrowing”. You can hardly blame them – stuck on a desert island, and all. Yes, beer theft was punishable by a good flogging … but it’s worth paying any price for beer, IMO.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    You do realise that in this day and age the people that were once illiterate, line OUR universities and out do us academically. I guess I should count myself heh…. I forget that I am a forrrner :o) I guess I don’t sound like one and grew up on School House Rock so I forget…..

    But as for the validity of early European “scholarship”, have you read that stuff. It beyond comical. Its just full of sickness, I mean mental illness. To call those renditions lies is just not right. Those people were ill. They were opportunists, diabolical, fantasy driven sickos and overall sociopaths.

    I would be more willing to trust a revered oral rendition to the exaggerated claims that would make the “scholar” a name in his homeland.

    For instance, in Zulu culture, ones lineage is passed down not by a family tree drawing but by a memorized, incredible recital that would put a Shakespearean drama to shame. Each ancestor has a story that is told about his accomplishments, events at birth and or death. Most Europeans don’t have that. You are lucky to know who your grand grand is. But every generation is (or was) required to know what we call The Praises. Others males not related would know the names in your general lineage because of your surname and could recite the general rendition. Upon recital, it is so magnificent, its as if thunder would roar and something calamitous would happen. My father was a city boy, born at the onset of Soweto and didn’t know much about African anything. He was raised on bebop and Cabb Calloway. However when one of his friends would walk in the house slowly then starts reciting his “praises” he would become a proud Zulu. His stance would change. He would respond back with a hefty “yes! or keep going!, you don’t’ say!” or a proud satisfied chuckle through the recital and you would see the masculine thing emerge. It was like a Tim Allen fest after that. Testosterone everywhere. We lived in our ubber middle class existence, an enchanted experience with house help and all however even as small child I found the spectacle poetic and transcendent.

    I have simply created a family tree and an intranet site for my generation of relatives to visit on line :o) I wish i could recite something even remotely as awesome but…. snicker

    However, Europeans knew nothing of such things when encountering us. The history was accurate. That was a requisite. Multiply that history by every family….. I’m just saying..

  • Zedd

    RJ

    You do know that people lie on paper.

  • Zedd

    We are corrupt in a different way.

    The Gaurdian. A UK publication

    Dallas Morning News

    ABC News

    We address the voiceless within and outside of our boarders. If they can’t or don’t talk, it didn’t happen. So we are not corrupt.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “You do realise that in this day and age the people that were once illiterate, line OUR universities and out do us academically.”

    Really? Zulus and Andamese are outdoing us academically? (But I thought we were oppressing them?)

    Even if that were true (which it isn’t … the only people as a group who could reasonably be said to be “outdoing” Europeans academically are East Asians, who actually did develop written languages prior to contact with Europeans), these indigenous peoples would be “outdoing” “us” in the society and culture our ancestors (and not theirs) created and built. And if that was the case (which it isn’t), I suppose they owe us Europeans quite a deal for our benevolence in accepting them and assimilating them into our society, as opposed to the spears and arrows they “offered” “us” …

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “But as for the validity of early European “scholarship”, have you read that stuff. It beyond comical. Its just full of sickness, I mean mental illness. To call those renditions lies is just not right. Those people were ill. They were opportunists, diabolical, fantasy driven sickos and overall sociopaths.”

    Right. All European explorers/anthropologists/historians from the 15th Century to the early 20th Century were liars, mentally ill, “diabolical,” “sickos,” and “sociopaths.”

    Sounds fair and reasonable to me…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “For instance, in Zulu culture, ones [sic] lineage is passed down not by a family tree drawing but by a memorized, incredible recital that would put a Shakespearean drama to shame. Each ancestor has a story that is told about his accomplishments, events at birth and or death. Most Europeans don’t have that. You are lucky to know who your grand grand is. But every generation is (or was) required to know what we call The Praises.”

    Yes, well, there are countless numbers of teenage boys alive today who have been brainwashed into fundamentalist Islam while “studying” Madrassas in Pakistan who are no doubt able to regurgitate the entire Koran, chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse, from memory…but I don’t exactly consider that progress…or empirical evidence that their recitations are in any way based on real world events…

  • Zedd

    RJ

    You must be feeling really challenged by my assertions because your responses are really sloppy.

    Not sure what your comment about Andmese and higher education is all about. Perhaps a cry on your part to end this “debate”….

    But because I am Zulu and I am dialoguing with you, I’d say YES! As for suppression I am not sure where any of that fits in to the threat of our dialogue. Overcoming adversity and excelling in something doesn’t mean that the adversity didn’t really exist.

    RJ sed: Right. All European explorers/anthropologists/historians from the 15th Century to the early 20th Century were liars, mentally ill, “diabolical,” “sickos,” and “sociopaths.”

    How do I help you? You skipped some steps in your calculations. You logic or equation is missing an important segment.

    Its funny, your comments suggest that the people didn’t know who they were, that Europeans were better equipped to tell them and the world who they REALLY were. That’s weird RJ. That’s also another indication among many of your White Supremacist subconscious. Its not just you. Don’t worry I’m not calling you a KKK kook. Its just part of the Western subtext.

    As for Madrasah, in Arabic, that word just means “school” (sigh.. point being made again). From our peppered vantage point it off course means a school where religious training occurs where the memorization of the Quran is taught(sigh). For many Amerrrrrcans its a terrrrrrorist training ground (help us all).

    Now I am not sure why you brought that up. Are you saying that memorizing something word for word and being tested on it based on the TEXT that is right in front of the tester does not prove that the information is retained? I just don’t know where you are going with this.

    The Torah is recited as well. In many, if not most countries children do a great deal of recitation.

    It looks like this dialogue is veering off to a strange place. Well put it to rest. I’ll catch on another thread. I’m sure the smatterings of the same ideology will creep up again and I will be compelled to illuminate the other perspective.

  • Clavos

    Kafka lives!

  • Zedd

    RJ

    I forgot to respond to something. Do forgive.

    but I don’t exactly consider that progress

    Is it progress that our children sit for hours with automated devices either plugged into their ears or as extensions of their arms and can hardly recite the preamble of the constitution?

    Is MTV a sign of progress? What about all of the Jason movies? What about the sexual promiscuity and booty dancing that children now engage in that adults look at as NORMAL? Is crystal meth, crank, and raving progressive? Is Paris Hilton, the great heroin (play on words), a symbol of progress? What about kegg parties, do they reflect our superiority as a society? Is engaging talking about who is hot and who has the best abs on My Space a sign of our greatness as a society?

    Our society has produced great advances in the sciences which have enhanced our quality of life. Some include medical advances. We live longer. We still die though and when we die we don’t mind it so I am not sure if that is a coup. But we have invented various pain killers. However many indegenous people used pain killers, some of which are harvested to make the drugs that we use now. We can say that, precision in science makes dosages consistant so there is less of a chance for error.

    We live in more luxury, however one never realizes how deprived one is untill they encounter those who have more. So sleeping on a calf skin on the ground isn’t so bad until you’ve slept on a Serta Perfect Sleeper. So I’m not sure if our comforts are progress really.

    Electricity is good. My grandmother had no electricity. We had to use candles at her home and good heavy blankets. There was a warm glow in her house at night and everyone stayed in the family room because that is where the light was. Funny thing though, the sun rose the next day and everyone went to work and and school and had a normal day. You know what, nothing calamotous happened. She washed her clothes by hand and put them on the wash line. It was no biggy. Nothing happened. You didn’t even think about electricity AT ALL.

    Many of our ailments are a result of modern life; many are brought on by obessity and some of the manufactored environmental impact that we have brought into the landscape.

    We have become more sensative about psychological affects. Considering that humanity has progressed for millania without psychological analysis, I wonder if talking about “how you feel” and thinking that anyone REALLY cares is progress. The people who really care are those who you pay to care and they care about the $250/hr that you have to give them. I mean $250/hr to have someone (who more than likely has no real concept of normal because of their own personal issues) tell you what your well socialized grandmother could tell you with a look.

    The advances that I most covet are mechanical. I would have to think hard if I had a choice between winning a full outfitting with the top of the line tools or getting a complete make over including nips, tucks, lypo and a full designer geer. I love tools. However, If I didn’t have to manicure my lawn or have an amoire or use a washing machine (which I fixed myself 3 weeks ago!!!), I wouldn’t need those tools. The simple ones that have been used by people for thousands of years would be just fine.

    So PROGRESS…. what is it? Does it make us laugh more, love more, apreciate more, care more, does it enhance our passions? I don’t think so. It does however offer us hope. So do myths (religion, etc)

  • Zedd

    Excuse the billion typos. I didn’t preview my comments.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    I suppose they owe us Europeans quite a deal for our benevolence in accepting them and assimilating them into our society, as opposed to the spears and arrows they “offered” “us”

    You don’t really know anything about history do you? You seem to have a Tarzan movie understanding of imperialism. I’m sure you have images of a sexy blonds being held above a huge pot screaming their lunges out while a scary painted up native witch doctor with enormous eyes and amazingly large sharpened white teeth says “ooooga boooga” with the crowd of depraved natives cheering on in the background.

    I suppose what “you” did to Native Americans was warm and embracing. What about the entire continent of Africa, that was love. India, all the islands of South Seas, Vietnam, oh lets stop and just say the rest of the globe outside of Europe, was that loving? Should I FedEx you some smelling salts? Are you alert and aware of your surroundings? Also if you are assured that Europeans did not usurp ideas and technologies from other cultures, you are even more direly intellectually repressed that I feared.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ
  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Electricity is good. My grandmother had no electricity. We had to use candles at her home and good heavy blankets. There was a warm glow in her house at night and everyone stayed in the family room because that is where the light was. Funny thing though, the sun rose the next day and everyone went to work and and school and had a normal day. You know what, nothing calamotous [sic] happened. She washed her clothes by hand and put them on the wash line. It was no biggy. Nothing happened. You didn’t even think about electricity AT ALL.

    Clearly none of your ancestors had Type 1 diabetes…or rather, none of your ancestors with Type 1 diabetes survived…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Many of our ailments are a result of modern life; many are brought on by obessity [sic]”

    Well, you could always emigrate to Zimbabwe, where “obessity” is not exactly the main health concern…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    For those interested in Zimbabwe’s recent economic “progress,” click here

    The downward spiral of the economy has been attributed mainly to mismanagement, corruption and Zimbabwe’s inability to feed itself after evicting more than 4000 white farmers in the controversial farm invasions of 2000.

    According to official figures, inflation rose from an annual rate of 32% in 1998 to a high of 1,729.9% in February 2007, a state of hyperinflation. The exchange rate fell from 24 Zimbabwean dollars per US dollar to 250(000) Zimbabwean dollars per US dollar (official rate) and 10,000(000) Zimbabwean dollars per US dollar (parallel rate), in the same period.

    Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe reached a record annual rate of some 1,730% as reported on 10 March 2007. Mugabe points to foreign governments and alleged “sabotage” as the cause of this, as well as the country’s 80% unemployment rate. Critics of Mugabe’s administration, however, immediately indicate the main cause of some of these issues stems from Mugabe’s controversial program which sought to seize land from white commercial farmers.

    Robert Mugabe has repeatedly blamed sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by the EU and the USA for the state of the Zimbabwean economy. Governments that imposed the sanctions have however argued that the sanctions are only meant to target government officials and not ordinary citizens.

  • Clavos

    Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe reached a record annual rate of some 1,730% as reported on 10 March 2007. Mugabe points to foreign governments and alleged “sabotage” as the cause of this, as well as the country’s 80% unemployment rate. Critics of Mugabe’s administration, however, immediately indicate the main cause of some of these issues stems from Mugabe’s controversial program which sought to seize land from white commercial farmers.

    Hmmm.

    Much like Hugo Chavez is starting to do in Venezuela, and his inflation is already the highest in the hemisphere…

    Robert Mugabe has repeatedly blamed sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe by the EU and the USA for the state of the Zimbabwean economy.

    Just like Fidel Castro, another whiz of a leader.

  • STM

    Zimbabwe is a disgrace … even the South African government, which previously thought that Harare should sort out its own problems, is starting to worry about the human rights abuses perpetrated by Mugabe – like the bashings and jailings resulting from the recent pro-democracy protest in downtown Harare.

    Don’t be surprised in the near future to see a South African-led intervention force move into Harare as Mugabe is deposed – with help from Pretoria. Mugabe is a thug, who has no concern for his own people whatever colour they might be.

  • STM

    RJ … Zulu … great movie. Not sure Zedd will share those sentiments as she’s a Zulu herself. The Poms who lived were lucky to survive that onslaught, unlike their compatriots who were massacred at nearby Islandhwana in the British equivalent of Custer’s Last Stand (happened about the same time too, and for the same reason. Just like Custer, they split their forces). At Rorke’s Drift, they ended up with the equivalent of a lot of arrows in their hats and the highest number of Victoria Crosses awarded by the British Army for a single action. The Zulu method of war wasn’t primitive, either. It was very advanced and nearly always worked. They didn’t take prisoners either. Eee yah … scary, scary stuff. Glad I wasn’t a Soldier of The Queen in the late 1800s.

    It’s all the fault of the Afrikaners, BTW. They caused all the bloody trouble. Blame ‘em for everything, I say.

  • Nancy

    Yup; one helluva movie, Zulu. For those who are interested in Rorke’s Drift or Zulu history in general, Donald R. Morris’ The Washing Of The Spears is considered a definitive (& very reader-friendly) book. I’ve worn out 2 copies & jsut acquired my 3rd. The nice thing is, it doesn’t present only from the European POV. Morris frequently points out the heroic & amazing coalescence of the Zulu nation under Shaka, the mechanations of various Europeans & European nations, & the incredible courage on BOTH sides of the Zulu War. The movie isn’t so even-handed, but the native actors are terrific & dignified, not made out to be cowards or clowns or ‘primitives’ at all. Gross cinematic license is mainly taken with the characterizations of poor Henry Hook (who was actually quite heroic & a good soldier), the two Lieutenants in charge, Chard & Bromhead (either as handsome or dashing as the cinematic pair), & the gratuitous insertion of the Swedish pastor, owner of Rorke’s Drift Station, & his nubile daughter into the scene, when actually he & his entire family were never present at all, having departed long before the actual attack. But it does have a helluva lot of good action & suspense, and the scene at the end where the camera pulls back to reveal the layers of thousands of dead or dying Zulu warriors right up to the feet of the exhausted & terrified Brit defenders is no exaggeration. The music is excellent, too, & sets a good tone.

    Sorry – didn’t mean for this to be a movie review, but I seldom get a chance to push for either the book or the movie. Thanks, STM.

    MR – I’ll hint to anyone I want to about writing what I’d like to see. A page out of your book: no one tells me what to say or not say – including YOU. Christ! You’re just like Dick Cheney: do as I say, not as I do, don’t judge me, but I’ll judge YOU! You have more brass balls & nerve than a battalion of men. And that’s NOT a compliment.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    The Zulu military strategy is studied in the US military. My husband prior to knowing that I was Zulu (a Marine, devil dog) was rambling on about military strategy (I’m a girl, I get all blurry with a lot of detail about guns and such) it wasn’t until he started explaining to me in detail Zulu military strategy that I perked up. He was a stud I would have dated him anyway:o)

    Its thought that current militaries including US pilots utilize drugs (emphatemines…they really do) so that they will stay up on long missions from the practices of Zulu doctors who would give different drugs to each level of military batalion.

    The front line was given some crazy stuff. They knew they weren’t coming back and they were in a special mode, combined with when taking that stuff, they were feirce. For quite some time Europeans who encountered them said that it was as if they were possesed. They were. They were high :o)

    If you are ever in South Africa, go to the Zulu crawl. Your ideas about “primitive” people will change. Watching the military (ceremonial now) will send chills up and down your spine. The lead will call “All hail the king” the regimine will respond in melodic unison, a large simultanious clammer will clash and dust will rise. when it cleares they will be prostate on the ground with sheilds covering. Then the zulu dance starts…. OH MY GOODNESS!! The music is amazing and you really come to understand what males are really made of. You’ll come from there wanting to kill a beast with your bare hands.

  • Zedd

    STM

    For the erra that it was created in, it was respectful to the Zulus. But who wouldn’t be, accept RJ who clearly has no concept of anything outside of Tarzan

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    RJ,

    More than once I have excoriated Zedd for blathering on about the Middle East when she has no idea what she is talking about. And more often than not, she doesn’t. But I do. I live here.

    But now, Zedd gets to benefit from my attitude. Zedd is a Zulu. When she speaks about HER people, the smart thing to do is to shut up and listen. You may learn something. She knows what she feels in her bones and her heart, and for all her years in the United States, she still knows her heritage.

    And for damn sure, she knows it better than you do – or I.

    The only thing I really know about the Zulu is that they gave the British one hell of a run for their money a century and half ago. And her husband is lucky that the US Marines have the sense to learn from others. Hey, dude, if the Marines can learn from others, why can’t you?

    When Zedd talks about South Africa or the Zulu, I do shut up and listen. Just reading her comments above has been an education. Now I’m beginning to understand WHY the Zulu gave the British a run for their money a 150 or so years ago.

    And Zedd, if I have the dates wrong, please correct me.

  • Zedd

    Thanks Ruvy that was gracious. I willy try to hold back SOME regarding the middle east.

  • Zedd

    As for Zimbabwe as is always the case, there is a little bit of truth on all sides, well a lot of truth when it comes to categorizing Mugabe as NUTS.

    However the Western nations are the cause of the horrible economy. They are sactioning Mugabe for what Great Britian did to the White farmers and forced Mugabe into an awkward position.

    GB had promised to subsidise the farmers until African farmers were equiped for commercial farming. I know some people who came here just to study agreculture under that plan. All along Mugabe had been promising his people that they would get their land back. Many groups were displaced at the early part of the last century when Whites took over Rhodesia. Offcourse being agrarian people, it stayed with them to regain their land over the decades.

    Every election, Mugabe would promise that the land would return. When the Brits pulled out, he was in a bad situation.

  • Nancy

    Nope – last thing y’wanna do is offend a Zulu; even the women were warriors (some of them). A great nation, betrayed (as usual) by white “friends” like Shepstone. BTW, the kwaZulu language is really pretty, too. I’ve seen vids of Zulu ceremonial dancing; Zedd is right: it’s chilling & thrilling. The movie ‘Zulu’ has just a little of it, but it’s not bad as a tiny sample.

  • imran

    to whoever wrote this article… I think before you blame Mrs. Zia and talk about your country with such love and emotion, one must look at the definiton of corruption. What constitutes it and how is one deed judged to be ‘corrupted’. And then think of the definiton of system and the need to get a job done. Some may say its just speed money; it exists in every country and place in the world. Having a competition about it with statistics compiled by over worked and disconnected individuals really does not give anyone the the clear picture. just helps people point fingers and complain.

  • http://corruptio.blogg.se corruptio

    Sweden is the worlds biggest fraud!
    Sweden is the worlds most corrupted country!
    Swedish government is robbing Africa!
    Swedish government is behind all wars!
    Swedish government is involved in the Afghan Heroin!

    Open your eyes and see the real Sweden!
    The Swedish weapon industry BOFORS/SAAB DYNAMICS is killing children all over the world!

    SWEDEN IS THE DEVIL!

  • http://corruptio.blogg.se corruptio

    The Swedish government and USA is behind the plans to corrupt Zimbabwe!

    These two countries has no control over Zimbabwe that´s why the Swedish government is working hard to make Mugabe fall.

    Sweden is the worlds biggest fraud!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I guess someone doesn’t like Swedes….

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I guess you’ll be adding Sweden to your list, Ruvy, as it is obviously responsible for events in the Middle East.

  • Cindy D

    Fucking Sweden! I knew it!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I guess you’ll be adding Sweden to your list, Ruvy, as it is obviously responsible for events in the Middle East.

    Actually, Chris, a few folks beat me to the punch a while ago. The link references a 2006 article in the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, an interview with the former Israeli ambassador to Sweden. From the article:

    Sweden claims to be a superdemocracy, an example of enlightenment and openness. People with such pretensions should be a little more knowledgeable about Israel, another democracy after all. And yet the average Swedish citizen does not know more than what the country’s shallow media tells him. This is often anti-Israeli, and the public is influenced by it.

    Zvi Mazel was the Israeli ambassador to Sweden from December 2002 to April 2004. “Before, I had been for five years ambassador to Egypt, where massive hatred of Israel was promoted on a daily basis. We were regularly accused of all that was wrong everywhere in the world. I did not expect to find a somewhat similar atmosphere in a democratic country such as Sweden.”

    During his stay in Stockholm, Mazel developed a critical view of Sweden. Among large parts of the society’s elite he encountered a discriminatory attitude and hostility to Israel as well as pseudomorality and arrogance. Sweden’s apparent tolerance for rabid anti-Semitism has reinforced his opinion of the country’s ruling classes.

    In addition, you can find a book review of Behind the Humanitarian Mask: The Nordic Countries, Israel and the Jews.

    I tossed in a treat for you, since you are not that far from the Emerald Isle now, and if I remember, you mentioned having done military service there in your youth. The article deals with the significant distinctions between reaching a peaceful resolution between the Catholics and Protestants and attempting to reach an agreement between Arab terror groups and the Jewish entity here. The differences are important, and are usually missed by the one-sided British media.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I find it highly amusing that you spend half your time here criticising your own government as corrupt and only worth shooting and then reach out to the words of a government official to criticise Sweden.

    Setting that aside, the first article you linked to was just another of the typical “we don’t half feel sorry for ourselves” bleating that passes for much of Israeli output these days.

    If you read a wider variety of sources, a picture rapidly emerges not of hostility to Jews but rather of a certain lack of support for Israel’s current policies in the region, but then you feel exactly the same way, so why are the Swedes to be considered anti-Semitic but you not?

    As usual, your memory is at fault, as I have never done military service in Northern Ireland, nort claimed to. Setting that aside however, the article you linked to was published by the Jewish Center for Public Affairs, which is clearly not an unbiased organisation.

    Indeed, it is obviously a deeply partisan and flawed organisation as it believes “A direct by-product of the attacks on Israel is a clearly detectable rise in anti-Semitism, especially in Europe”, which is pretty much back to front.

    There is an increased hostility to the Israeli state’s actions in the area but this is more to do with the fact that, as the pre-eminent military force in the region, it clearly has the ability to defend itself but chooses to interfere in the affairs of other countries rather than confine itself to protection.

    In particular, the behaviour of Israel to the Palestinians, particularly in the Gaza Strip, is a crime against decency and humanity.

    Israel could and should have made peace with its neighbours and co-operated in the creation of a viable Palestine many years ago. This would have done more to prevent any suggestion of anti-Semitism gaining hold in the world than anything else and is still an option it has available to it.

    Furthermore, this would have also served to prevent attacks on Israel from its neighbours, to say nothing of preventing attacks such as 9/11 on the USA from happening.

    The article you linked to is simply seeking to put in place obstacles to peace, such as opposing direct contact between the peoples party to the dispute, without ever actually coming up with constructive alternatives.

    As, according to the CIA World Fact Book, only 3/4 of the Israeli population is actually of the Jewish religion anyway, maybe it is time for a re-think…

    Personally, I support the right of Israel to exist, indeed, there was a time when I was prepared to fight to protect that right. That time has long since passed though, as Israel has transformed itself from victim to aggressor, without ever seriously working towards a genuine and lasting peace with its neighbours.

  • STM

    Sorry, but I have to copy the Doc given our anti-Swedish commentator who believes our Nordic brethren are responsible for all the world’s ills.

    There is obviously truth in Doc’s words, especially this time of year … “Bjorn is the king of Israel”.

    Geez, you have to watch out for those Swedes, don’t you? They’re into everything.

  • Cindy D

    LOL I finally got that! Dr.D! That is hilarious!

  • Don B

    I think someone outside of Israel, fighting for Israel’s right to exist is like a man in the ocean saying he is fighting his way to the mountaintop. It only appears that way to himself. Only Israelites can fight for Israel. Supporting their efforts is all one can do.
    That being said, which faction of Israel’s do you find being worthy of said sacred support? Not all Israelites are Jewish, just as not all Chinese are Kung Fu artists.

  • PG

    Depends how corruption is defined , I list Singapore and America as very corrupt , as in its America money politics and influence , in SIngapore its non repsect of human rights and the constitution.
    I also consider lobbying a disgusting form of corruption , if you have money you win , so where is the democracy .

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