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President Obama to Address our Nation’s Schoolchildren September 8

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As if (we) parents don’t have enough to worry about as our children head back to school: flu season along with the swine flu, health in general, behavior, grades, homework, sports, relationships, drug use, teen sex, and violence in our schools, now we must fear our own President’s motives behind his upcoming monumental message directed to our nations schoolchildren.

Education Secretary Arne Duncan sent letters to school principals; “President Barack Obama to Make Historic Speech to America’s Students” On September 8, 2009, history will be made. Will you be a part of it? At 12:00 p.m., Eastern Time (ET), President Barack Obama will deliver a national address to the students of America.

The letter states that the special address directed at our nation’s children will be about “persisting and succeeding in school”. A Presidential speech about education, terrific! Gone are the days when the President or First Lady pops up occasionally at a school to read a story or two.  This administration has a new strategy. This is more than a speech. It’s an event, which encourages “students of all ages, teachers, and administrators to participate." In her letter, Duncan has prepared what the DOE is calling a “menu of classroom activities for students preK-6 and for students in grades 7-12” for educators to use as “ideas (developed by and for teachers) to help engage students and stimulate discussion on the importance of education in their lives.”

President Obama plans to speak to a captive audience of schoolchildren ages 5 to 18 through the classrooms of our nation’s public schools. If Obama’s speech actually addresses the significance of education in American lives and acts as a motivator that is one thing, but why do they need directives or interactive activities? And where are the permission slips?

Department of Education PDF files so we won't need another misinformation Czar.

Pre-K thru 6 graders activities include preparation by reading books about presidents and Barack Obama and motivate students by asking a few basic questions.

As students listen to the speech, the “menu” suggests that they could think about the following:

• What is the President trying to tell me?
• What is the President asking me to do?
• What new ideas and actions is the President challenging me to think about?
• Students might think about: What specific job is he asking me to do? Is he
asking anything of anyone else? Teachers? Principals? Parents? The American
people?

After the speech students are to discuss main ideas from the speech, i.e. citizenship, personal responsibility, civic duty. Students could discuss their responses to the following questions:

• What do you think the President wants us to do?
• Does the speech make you want to do anything?
• Are we able to do what President Obama is asking of us?
• What would you like to tell the President?

PreK-6 teachers are also told that they can extend learning by having students:

• Create posters of their goals. Posters could be formatted in quadrants or
puzzle pieces or trails marked with the labels: personal, academic,
community, country. Each area could be labeled with three steps for achieving
goals in those areas. It might make sense to focus on personal and academic
so community and country goals come more readily.
• Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.
These would be collected and redistributed at an appropriate later date by the
teacher to make students accountable to their goals.

The 7-12 grade students will be prepared before the speech and asked to brainstorm not only educational areas but the last bullet states, “what other historic moments do you remember when the President spoke to the nation? What was the impact? Students could create a Cause/Effect graphic organizer.”

Under “listening with purpose” the teacher could focus students on quotations that either propose a specific challenge to them or inspire them in some meaningful way.” Lastly they are given an outline for “after the speech” and here are few you will find:

• What resonated with you from President Obama’s speech? What lines/phrases
do you remember?
• What is President Obama inspiring you to do? What is he challenging you to
do?
• What do you believe are the challenges of your generation?
• How can you be a part of addressing these challenges?

Before the "paranoia monitors" fall off the bus to reprimand concerns surrounding this issue, ask yourself this question, how can we trust an administration that uses any means possible to move their agenda–-even the use of tactics that are scary, hypocritical and disingenuousness, including the appointment of over 44 Czars, some of which are radical in their ideology? And a recent radio address, “'40 Minutes for Health Reform' featuring President Obama”, which aired August 10, 2009, and was Obama’s attempt to “get the people of faith, those clinging to their guns and religion", behind Obamacare. Ironically, on the same day, the taxpayer funded National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), the White House Office of Public Engagement, and United We Serve hosted a conference call, which included 75 people from the arts world. Those invited were popular street-artists, filmmakers, art galleries, music venues, musicians and music producers, writers, poets, actors, independent media outlets, marketers, and various other professionals from the creative community and were called on to push Presidents Obama’s agenda in the name of service. According to one of the “invited”, film producer, Patrick Courrielche, "the conference call was billed as an opportunity for those in the art community to inspire service in four key categories, and at the top of thelist were “health care” and “energy and environment.” "It sounded, how should I phrase it…unusual, that the NEA would invite the art community to a meeting to discuss issues currently under vehement national debate. I decided to call in, and what I heard concerned me."

President Obama is a great orator and I'm sure his special speech will be newsworthy, however, considering the political climate we are in and the circumstances of this new education strategy, I'm slightly miffed! White House slow down, our school speed zone law is 25 mph. A pep talk about education is one thing but take your propaganda machine somewhere else.

As World Net Daily announces “Parents rebel against Obama TV speech to schools”, I have talked to the principal of my child’s school and they will be getting back to me on their plans for this event. If they support the activities recommended by the DOE, my child will not participate. In fact my child won’t be left behind in education but will be left behind in any type of propaganda this administration has to offer.

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About Christine Lakatos

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Here in Texas parents are up in arms about this. Already at least one school district in the Austin area and one in the Dallas area that I know of have decided not to show the broadcast to kids but to make it available on the web on a purely voluntary basis.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Wow, that’s amazing. I just heard on the news that they are re-wording the “menus”…that speaks volumes to what citizens can do when they speak out!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Doesn’t every president address the nation’s children in some capacity at the start of the school year? From my understanding, he’s telling the kids about getting good grades and doing well academically.

    With all due respect, is that really worth four pages?

  • zingzing

    oh, for fuck’s sake. you think he’s gonna indoctrinate your kids? how many times did you watch presidential speeches in school? and how did you come out?

    and do you really think he’s going to talk about anything that’s politically divisive? bah. no, you don’t, you just wanna bitch up a fucking storm. go ahead…

    you people are so hyperbolic and paranoid. it’s like jenna jameson is coming to teach sex ed or something. jesus.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Zing, it looks like you didn’t read the article, it’s not about the speech but the proposed activities (which Jordan is why the four pages). Why are you guys getting so hostile?

  • zingzing

    i read the article, and see nothing in the activities (which are, like any other school assignment, designed to make sure that kids participate instead of just snoozing through it,) that are in any way threatening.

    we’re getting hostile because you rightwingers take any goddamn thing obama sneezes and turn it into a nightmarish socialist attack on good family values or some such nonsense, and it’s getting fucking ridiculous.

    plus, it’s fun to get hostile. that’s politics!

  • Jordan Richardson

    And is it really worth all the continued fear?

    Christ, I don’t think there’s any country in the world right now more crippled by fear and paranoia than the supposed “last, best hope” for us all. What’s really scary is how gullible and silly this all is. The population has become political pawns, both on the left and the right, and everything’s about what could happen or what might happen or what might be taken away.

    Aren’t you tired of living like that?

    Here in Canada, we might be having another election soon. That’ll make it our third election in three years. And you know how the public largely feels about it? They don’t particularly care. I’ve never heard inflated, frightening rhetoric. I’ve never heard people comparing ANY of our politicians to Hitler. I’ve never seen Town Hall meetings complete with armed protesters and idiotic signs. And I’ve never seen anyone freak the fuck out when the PM wants to talk to children.

    Grow up.

  • zingzing

    you ever watch the british parliament at work? now that’s some clever fucking governance.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Are we allowed to use the “F” word in BC comments?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Why are you guys getting so hostile?

    How would you suggest one responds to outright fear-mongering, paranoia and ignorance? People, not just Americans but people around the world, are hostile towards your bloody country because you poison absolutely EVERYTHING you touch. People are hostile because you manage to turn the most innocuous of activities into this politically-motivated shitstain that we all should be AFRAID of.

    And people are tired of it. You’re not living in some hellhole where the government is trying to steal your children, rape your women and kill people and yet some of you have the brutal audacity to compare it to Nazism. You’re not living in a country where you lack opportunity or the ability to make your own way, yet some among you are so desperate to make a political point that they imagine themselves under the rule of some dictator’s whims.

    It’s childish. The GOP got to run things for 8 years and now that the Dems are in charge the Right is throwing a hissyfit that, by all rights, is shameful and silly. You bitch about complain about a 3-5% tax increase, about needing to pay for someone elses’ health care, about the prospect of your children actually listening to their president.

    Oh no! Life as we know it is over! Where is “my America?”

    This is insane. A real crisis is when your children are taken away from you in the middle of the night and there’s nothing you can do about it. A real crisis is not even being able to imagine where your next meal is coming from, let alone whether or not your kid will go to school. A real crisis is living under threat of bombings or shootings daily.

    We’re all so fucking lucky, yet so many Americans are so desperate and politically-minded that they refuse to see it. So you’ve got a president that’s one of the “other guys.” Get over it. Your lives will still be among the world’s most privileged and fortunate.

    Enough already.

  • zingzing

    “And I’ve never seen anyone freak the fuck out when the PM wants to talk to children.”

    that would be the point.

    and the armed protesters packing loaded semi-automatics, the preachers praying for obama’s death and new address in hell, the birthers, the death panels bullshit, etc is also goddamned embarrassing. those on the right with any intelligence should be ashamed. bunch of misinformed hicks are ruining any chance you have of regaining a majority.

    leave it up to the right wing to fucking mow off their collective foot even while sticking it in their collective mouth.

  • zingzing

    “Are we allowed to use the “F” word in BC comments?”

    damn fucking right we are, and we’ll fucking use whatever variation of “fuck” we want while we fucking do it.

  • zingzing

    “Are we allowed to use the “F” word in BC comments?”

    i hope you were kidding.

  • zingzing

    “Are we allowed to use the “F” word in BC comments?”

    see the first amendment.

  • pinksugar

    seems to me the right-wingers are the only ones capable of Clean, social discourse..

    This is scare tactics.. purely to use His position as a way to insinuate his way into our schools and have access to our most vulnerable citizens.. (He MUST be listened to and Respected!!) If HIS kids are “Off Limits” then why aren’t Mine??

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Jordan, you may be right when you compare this to bigger issues, however, if you have child in school that has been subjected to teachers who treat them differently because they don’t agree with them politically, it’s not paranoia it is real concern!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Define “Clean, social discourse.”

    And enlighten me as to how it’s representative of “Clean, social discourse” to instruct your children not to at least listen to their president or withhold the leader of your nation from their point of view. Aren’t you obstructing their ability to make their own choices by censoring who they have access to?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Christine, teachers treat kids differently no matter what. That’s just a reality. I had a teacher who treated me “differently” because I liked a different hockey team than he did.

    What does this have to do with Obama talking to kids about education? And try to explain it to me without “what ifs” or “coulds.” Let’s deal with what is first and what can actually be verified, not with what is possible.

    Are you really, seriously fearful of some sort of subversive, subliminal message from your president as he talks to your children? Are you really afraid that your kids are going to come home wanting to be “socialists?”

    You’re more reasonable than that, Christine, so what is the REAL problem here? Should children of Democrat voters be as concerned as children of Republican voters?

  • zingzing

    christine: “if you have child in school that has been subjected to teachers who treat them differently because they don’t agree with them politically, it’s not paranoia it is real concern!”

    your kids have political opinions? (i mean, you could instill your social values in them… but political? really? do they think their taxes are too high?)

    pinksugar: “This is scare tactics.. purely to use His position as a way to insinuate his way into our schools and have access to our most vulnerable citizens…”

    see, christine? paranoia.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Or is it problematic that your president has unfettered, unedited access to your children and, as a result, your children may be able to see him and hear him without the “filter of big media?”

  • pinksugar

    Filter of Big Media?
    Big Media is in love with him LOL

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Jordan, the fact that they would even propose such an idea in the first place is not appropriate. They should of said Obama gonna give a speech about education…period! Why all the added crap?

    Like I stated in my article, it’s not the speech, it is the added activity being proposed after that opens the door to any teacher, left or right, to push politics on children. That ain’t right!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Hardly. And FOX isn’t. They’re about as “big” as media gets.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Why all the added crap?

    Because it’s good to implement new strategies from time to time in the educational process. Because it’s good to teach children new things and get them to learn for themselves. Because school really is all about “added crap.”

    The door is always open for teachers to push their politics on kids. They do it, they always will and they don’t need incentives or opportunity. You know that.

  • pinksugar

    I won’t be taunted into needless swearing and as a parent, I see the gov’t encroaching more and more into MY rights as a parent.
    Swear all you want to if it makes you feel good about yourself.
    Its not impressing anyone.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Come on, Christine. Read your first paragraph. You talk about worrying about swine flu, health and a host of other problems. And then you say that we also (as though it’s comparable) need to be “worried” about the president’s monumental message to the kids.

    The teacher’s pushing their views on your children or my imaginary American children (meet Stevie and Sonny) has NOTHING to do with the president.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I see the gov’t encroaching more and more into MY rights as a parent.

    Name one tangible way this has happened. Just one.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Also, pinksugar, I find it interesting the way you chose to word that. What about your children and THEIR rights to learn facts, develop creativity and have a fair understanding of their country and the world around them? Or do YOUR parental rights trump that?

    And I’m seriously asking, too. There’s no snark intended behind those questions. I’m interesting in how you’re formulating your rather alarmist views.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    ZING: My kids are in college and middle school, what is wrong with them having opinions about politics along with social values? But then again, no matter how I respond to you, you will find a way to degrade me…so I think I will have to say good-night.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Jordon, I said to fear his MOTIVES!
    “fear our own President’s motives”

  • Jordan Richardson

    Christine, I realize that’s what you said. I fail to see how that changes the basics of what I was putting to you. You compare the president’s motives (which you must admit are unknown) to school violence, swine flu and teen sex.

  • pinksugar

    When our kids are Ready for it and can understand it, and WANT to discuss it, Fine. When they want to talk about it, Not when its pushed on them – they just want to be kids! But my own school district’s web site makes no mention of its plans.. Shouldn’t they have it on there as some sort of announcement, if they are proud of it?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Gone are the days when the President or First Lady pops up occasionally at a school to read a story or two”

    Considering how well that went for Bush on 9/11, can you really be surprised?

  • pinksugar

    Also, pinksugar, I find it interesting the way you chose to word that. What about your children and THEIR rights to learn facts, develop creativity and have a fair understanding of their country and the world around them? Or do YOUR parental rights trump that?

    * I didn’t see any FACTS the president was going to teach. Just HIS ideas on what he thinks my kids should do with their lives.

    *My kids don’t need him to teach them creativity. Doesn’t Obama trust the hard working teachers we already have? HE does not have a teaching degree. They do.

    *Yes, my parental rights are my parental rights.. If my child comes home and says “Mom, I really want to read the books Barack Obama wrote..” I would tell her, No you’re just not old enough to understand them at this point in your life.. and she isn’t. But thats one of the things that are suggested ‘in preparation’ for this event. Really I think MOST of this is about his Monster Ego more than anything…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Pink, you misunderstand my point.

    I wasn’t nor is anybody suggesting that the president should be “teaching” your kids anything. And from my understanding he’s not doing anything more than impressing upon students the importance of a good education.

    If you think president Obama is going to be impressing “HIS ideas” upon your kids and what they should do with their lives, what are HIS ideas? How do you know this? Or are you just supposing it to be true?

    Goodness, we haven’t even heard what he has to say or seen how this is implemented and we’ve got people claiming Obama’s telling their kids to be doctors, lawyers or maybe even bakers.

    Obama does trust the teachers. Where do you see or hear differently? What does this have to do with trusting the teachers? It’s Christine, by the way, who doesn’t trust the teachers in her thinking that this will somehow “open the doors” for teachers to impress their political views on your kids. So it’s not Obama that’s to fear, it’s his motives…er, it’s the teachers…er, it’s EVERYTHINGGGGG! For the love of God, RUN! And no swearing!

    You think this is about Obama’s ego, so prove it. I think this is about your fear and paranoia and I’ve (actually, you’ve) done a pretty good job proving that.

    For interest’s sake, how old do you have to be to understand Barack Obama’s books?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “it leaves the door open for teachers to attempt to politically sway our children any direction they please”

    Yeah, I am sure that will work on the pre-K kids because communism is going to be so appealing to kids who have trouble sharing their toys.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Look. This “menu” is about “stimulating discussion about the importance of education.” That’s what this article says it is.

    The only problem with it appears to be “why do we need that?” Probably because discussion about the importance of education is a GOOD thing. But with all of this mistrust drummed up against anything and everything that could conceivably run Left, it’s gotta be impossible to get anywhere.

    Americans are so divided and so scared that they willingly compare a discussion about the importance of education to swine flue.

    Now that’s fucked up.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I am sure that will work on the pre-K kids because communism is going to be so appealing to kids who have trouble sharing their toys.

    I’ve always wondered that. Why do we teach our kids to share but only up until a certain point before we unveil that the “real lesson” in life is “get it yourself, you lazy bastard”?

  • pinksugar

    All you’re doing is saying I’m “probably wrong”.. You can’t prove your position any better.. but my choices are my choices and since most of his administration is full of criminals, thieves and thugs, I think they have earned the mistrust of the American people..
    I would think a person should be at least 13 yrs old to understand his books (that he may or may not have actually written..)
    By him deciding he needs to take time out of his Elected duties to hijack a school day to tell kids education is important, I see that as him not trusting the teachers to do it. Why should kids listen to HIM more than their teachers? Or more than their parents?

  • zingzing

    christine: “My kids are in college and middle school, what is wrong with them having opinions about politics along with social values?”

    well, can they have their own, or only the ones that you subscribe to? and if one is in college, he/she is not a part of this. the one in middle school will probably revolt against you anyway, so you’re looking at a future democrat right there. there’s nothing wrong with them having ideas about politics, but if they’re old enough to have ideas about politics, what makes you think they’ll necessarily be changed by obama’s speech/their teachers? if they really have their own opinions, nothing’s going to change because of this. unless…

    if they find their opinions challenged, good for them. they deserve and have the right to and privilege of living in a country where people can express other political opinions and be heard without that meaning you have to subscribe to the same opinions. it’s rare the teacher that persecutes a child for his/her political beliefs, unless those beliefs are particularly heinous. (and those that do–and it happens, infrequently, on both sides of the isle–should feel ashamed.)

    “But then again, no matter how I respond to you, you will find a way to degrade me…so I think I will have to say good-night.”

    oh, shut it. i haven’t degraded you in the least. this is politics, and you expressed an opinion which i found to be hilarious and ridiculous, so i said something. i didn’t bitch slap you and make you go get me a beer. grow a thicker skin if you’re going to stick around here. please. and good night.

  • zingzing

    pinksugar: “I won’t be taunted into needless swearing… Swear all you want to if it makes you feel good about yourself. Its not impressing anyone.”

    no one’s trying to impress through swearing. christine asked if we could, and we said “yes we fucking can!” (see, that was a joke. a joke, you see. joke?)

    “Really I think MOST of this is about his Monster Ego more than anything…”

    that’s a possibility.

  • STM

    What’s the problem here. It’s just a President’s speech to schoolkids.

    Just like every other president’s speech to schoolkids.

    So just what is it about Obama that would make him any different, and such an object of fear for “some” parents when it comes to kids?????

    Also, can anyone tell me here what the real problem is with the “exercises”? Why shouldn’t American kids grow up understanding how politics really works.

    Geez. I agree with Jordan. Time to grow up.

  • pinksugar

    So we might agree on Something!

    Well, as I said, If HIS kids are “OFF Limits” then ours should be, as well.

    Monster Ego or not..

  • Jordan Richardson

    You can’t prove your position any better..

    My position is merely that being paranoid and fearful over every single possibility is a sad and shameful way to go through life. I don’t see a basis for the fear, so I don’t think it’s worth. You do, but you haven’t done an adequate job proving why one should be afraid of this.

    I asked you a flat-out direct question about how your rights as a parent had been taken away by the government and you still haven’t answered that. I asked you countless times for tangible, REAL evidence and you haven’t provided any. You simply skirt the issue, go off on tangents about swearing and being taunted, and duck all issues of importance choosing instead to supply your position via inference.

    Most administrations (period) are full of criminals and liars. That’s politics. But this has nothing to do with his administration as far as I can tell. Again, if I’m wrong and this IS political, give me a reason to think that besides your fears.

    Why should kids listen to HIM more than their teachers? Or more than their parents?

    Oh pulhease. You think kids listen to their teachers and parents more than celebrities and famous people? What planet are you on?

  • Jordan Richardson

    It seems to me that the real problem here isn’t that the exercises exist or that there’s a proposal to implement discussion of the importance of education. Who, in their right mind, would oppose that?

    The real problem is who the proposals are coming from. And those in opposition, like their children, could probably use a few pointers on political process if they actually believe Obama thought this up himself to indoctrinate kids and impose his eeeeeevil motives.

  • zingzing

    pinksugar: “since most of his administration is full of criminals, thieves and thugs, I think they have earned the mistrust of the American people..”

    jeez. you’d think we were talking about politics or something. i bet you didn’t mind the last 8 years of that shit though, did you? typical. really.

  • zingzing

    “Well, as I said, If HIS kids are “OFF Limits” then ours should be, as well.”

    that’s from the media. are your kids off limits from the media? well, you’re good then.

  • Jordan Richardson

    It’s just a President’s speech to schoolkids.

    But…but there are activities! There’s other crap…maybe even colouring books with little bits of commie propaganda tucked in. Colour Sammy the Socialist Dinosaur!

  • zingzing

    jordan: “The real problem is who the proposals are coming from.”

    exactly. and those that have the problem should really be looking at themselves right now and wondering why that is.

  • zingzing

    jordan: “Colour Sammy the Socialist Dinosaur!”

    we COLOR here, you queen-loving canuck.

    haha. that’s even better than i thought it was when i wrote it.

  • pinksugar

    Comment on Examiner.com –
    Libby:
    Thank God my kids are now out of school and my grandson is not yet in a grade school.

    Obama is so out of control that it is just beyond nuts. He is trying to get kids to emotionally commit to his insanity?

    No way would I permit the kids to be a part of this.

    I wouldn’t allow my kids to feel guilty all of their lives by being conned by a Chicago Organizer who would entrap them, set them against their parents, and commit them to a program that will ruin their future.

    This president is just asking to be impeached so that he can then pull out the race card.

    Lame duck will be the best road until he can be voted out.
    All the while we will be writing and recording every single thing he does that should have led to impeachment.
    September 3, 1:48 AM

  • Jordan Richardson

    Oh zingzing, you’re my favourite.

  • pinksugar

    saltandlight says:

    Total indoctrination! How would the dems have felt if President Bush had done that? If they set a new precedent like this, will they step back and let the republicans do it when they are back in power? Or, will they holler like a stuck pig?!
    September 3, 12:26 AM

  • Jordan Richardson

    pinksugar, with all due respect, if I want to see comments on this topic from another website, I’ll go there.

  • pinksugar

    Divide and Conquer.. try as hard as you can but we have a right to our views and thoughts and we will not be silenced.
    Good Night.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Good Lord. Who’s trying to “silence you?” It’s you who ducked all my questions, you nutter.

  • zingzing

    pinksugar: “Or, will they holler like a stuck pig?!”

    well, you’re setting the precedent right now, aren’t you? you’re fucking ridiculous.

    “I wouldn’t allow my kids to feel guilty all of their lives by being conned by a Chicago Organizer who would entrap them, set them against their parents…”

    set them against their parents? that’s the parent’s job! that’s what they fucking do.

  • zingzing

    pinksugar: “we will not be silenced. Good Night.”

    that’s some self-defeating rhetoric right there.

  • zingzing

    jordan: “Oh zingzing, you’re my favourite.”

    grumblemumble

  • hsr0601

    Theme : Today is the time to boost health mileage and follow peace just like Nissan Leaf and GM Volt.

    Time doesn’t fix the ceaseless greed and energy exhaustion for certain. Faced with these challenges, current generation is to build a bridge for generations to come, and it will be indispensable for both, too. By converting Incredible waste in health care system into funding for the uninsured young adults, both generations are better off after all, otherwise, Medicare, Medicaid system are also facing insolvency.

    Similarly, by weaning off fossil-fuel dependence as part of trimming the trade deficit (over 2/3 of which is caused by importing oil), all generations are enjoying the benefits of long-lasting peace and job generation together, as Nissan Leaf and GM Volt that attained a long-awaited innovation are coming to marketplace soon, and the other players that come in a range of 200 to 300 miles between charges are on fast-tract toward mass-market, as well.

    With this promising health reform combined with a balancing function for price inflation in operation, Chevy Volt, too, is earning competitive edge in price along the way, together with Nissan Leaf. And I think it’s of great importance to note that world-wide overpopulation that keeps surging and energy shortfall thereof don’t accommodate inefficiency and waste any longer.

    Like an efficient EV technology, the magic pill, an outcome-based payment system facilitates the up-take of patient-oriented value and an IT system, evidence-based care/ group approach, overcoming the regional disparity, skipping redundant and risk-carrying procedures, medical errors/deaths and frivolous lawsuits thereof, futile billing costs and a long line problem, intrusion of government.

    Since Minnesota spends “20 percent” less per patient than the national average and 31 percent less than in the highest cost state, under a pay for patient’s outcome pack, this promising reform could be successful along the way, I believe.

    Apart from the revenue package $583 billion and the savings of this reform package (($583bn (the revenue package) + $80bn (so-called doughnut hole) + $155bn (savings from hospitals) + $167bn (ending the unnecessary subsidies for insurers) + 129bn(mandate-related fine based on shared responsibility) + $277bn (ending medical fraud, a minimum of 3% , the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost of $923.5bn per year, as of July,) = $1.391trillion + the reduced cost of ER visits (Medicare covers some 40% of the total) + the tax code on the wealthiest more reduced than originally proposed and more)) , this “20%” of $923.5bn (the combined Medicare and Medicaid cost per year, as of July) is around $184.7bn per year and 1.847trillion over the next decade, the patient-oriented value alone could be sufficient to meet the goal.

    Please look no further than this payment reform, the flower of reform !

    In general, when some part of our body is ailing seriously, we are losing competitiveness, equally, when some part of a nation is ailing servery, it is losing competitiveness, too

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    pinksugar, reposting quotes from knuckleheads at other sites doesn’t help your position. they come off just as idiotic, uninformed, and delusional as you do

  • STM

    Gee, I wonder what it is about Obama that gets all these people coming out of the woodwork.

    Oh, that’s right.

    He was a community organiser.

  • Arch Conservative

    Hitler youth.

    Yeah I said it.

    I wonder how many millions of schoolchildren are mysteriously going to come down with a 24 hour cold and be kept home on the scheduled day of this Obama youth rally.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Yeah I said it.

    As predicted.

  • http://marksaleski.com MarkSaleski

    really sad that the paranoid ranting style of fox ‘news’ has so much power over some people.

    if reagan had done this, the very same people would have made sure to dress their kids in their nicest clothes for the big day.

    gawd bless america.

    embarrassing.

  • Chabela

    “In her letter, Duncan has prepared”

    Arne Duncan is male, never heard of him before but saw HIS picture on Fox News.

  • Clay

    I am a school teacher – and I feel like this blog post is ridiculous. Where have the days gone when everyone watched the President’s speeches. When my parents went to school the whole nation stopped to watch a President speak. Now, we’re talking about alterior motives. Do you not think that if that were the case, teachers would shut it off? Permission slips?? to watch the President speak? Parents should use this opportunity to talk with their kids afterwards about their beliefs and thoughts – open up those communication lines, I’m sure it’ll be a great address, and the kids will love seeing the President talking to them. We’re talking the President of the United States here. Relax.

  • JW

    Didn’t the Nazi’s have a youth group? It all starts at some point. We(right-wingers) seem so paranoid because we go fight the wars and keep dying so you liberals can have your freedoms and stay home and bitch. So like any other good sheep follower-drink the Obama kool-aid and keep smiling to the end. He could demand that everyone wear gray and you’d be first in line to get your uniform.

  • Mark

    This is nuts! I love it — like watching a snake eat itself.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    If Obama had gone to school in the States like most Americans, he could teach the children something useful – prepare them for a career in free enterprise by teaching third graders how to do drug sales so their teacher won’t see; or prepare them for a career in government service by teaching 6th graders how to collect lunch taxes in school, steal coats and shoes and snitch on their parents to special websites the government sets up.

    I would think Americans would be grateful to a president who honestly cares about their childrens’ future instead of grousing like fools.

    Of course, this president learned the Qur’an in school – in Indonesia. Is that what he’ll teach them – to love the Qur’an? Life is like a box of chocolates – you never know what you’re gonna get….

    Yep, you guys got one piece of work in the Blessed of Hussein. Too bad, it was a choice between him and McCrazy. Maybe you should have paid attention to the local political clubs – when you had the chance. Now is the time to join, folks – now is when the hopefuls of 2012 are honing their knives on the whetstone….

    Hopefully you will put your futures ahead of the trash on TV – finally.

  • Clavos

    Those who don’t want their kids to be lectured by Obama have a simple solution:

    Keep them home on September 8.

    End of problem.

  • Mark

    How is a people this divided supposed to survive the next big threat without slipping into totalitarian government? I imagine that any terrorista worth her salt realizes that now is the time to strike.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The level of batshit crazy around here is depressing.

  • Mark

    I think that the propagandists are playing with fire.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I agree. If someone really believes that Obama’s motives are dangerous to children, that Obama resembles a Nazi, that Obama isn’t actually an American-born citizen, or any of this other bullshit, who’s to say how they’ll behave?

    What should be done in the instance that any of these allegations are actually true? What is the reasonable thing to do is one truly believes the president of the United States is a Nazi with evil motives comparable to the dangerous of swine flu and school shootings?

    People need to stop and think about what they’re really saying with this rhetoric before someone a few crayons short of a whole box starts shooting. Honestly.

  • Clavos

    I think that the propagandists are playing with fire.

    Where’s my gasoline?

  • Jordan Richardson

    do is one truly believes the president

    Should be “if” one truly believes…

    Also should have used the funky comment preview options. Looks sweet!

  • Mark

    Clavos, you are being disingenuous. You make the most reasonable statement from the right in #71 and follow it with your incendiary #76.

    lol

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    What’s disingenuous about his statement, Mark? Really, whining like yours sets up a line for some fun, a sense of satire. Strikes me that Clavos is having some fun – as I was.

    Lost your sense of humor, Mark? Did a horse kick you today or something?

    Speaking of horses,where is Dan Miller? I haven’t heard from him at all or seen comments here or the other places where he smokes his pipe….

  • Mark

    Strikes me that Clavos is having some fun…

    That’s what I said…

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    As none of the objections to the President’s speech appear to be coherent, let alone logical, should one assume that they are merely weak cover-ups for the real reason, that these folks just don’t want that uppity nigger speaking to their children?

  • Mark

    I’m sure that that is a factor. Racism runs deep here.

  • http://gaia-health.com Heidi Stevenson

    I do not comprehend the paranoia of this article. Worried about people in the arts being asked to get involved? There’s a problem with children being asked to consider what the president is trying to say, or ask them to do? Huh?!

    This reads like one of those anti-healthcare placards that say, “Keep your government hands off my Medicare.” The logic is about the same.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    “Uppity nigger”, Chris? I thought that site moderators were supposed to moderate their own language? My, am I getting educmacated!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Christopher:
    Whey does racism have to come into this? I personally don’t have a racist bone in my spanish, greek, italian, mutt body!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Yeah. Racism is dead in America, remember?

  • Mark

    Nothing personal here Christine. Your article represents a larger trend.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Jordan: don’t you sleep? I never said racism is dead in American, just that we have come along way, yet still have quite a ways to go. I have hated racism since I was a young girl when my stepfathers called me N’lover….so can we move on from that at least when you are speaking to or at me?

    You do have some valuable comments that I have pondered but when you go there, you lose me!

  • Jordan Richardson

    so can we move on from that at least when you are speaking to or at me?

    Erm, I’m not sure I can ever “move on” from the reality of racism in the world. Nobody was or is accusing you of being racist. People are merely pointing out that there may be racial elements to many of these issues and that, in my opinion, is worth exploring whether I’m in a discussion thread with you or not.

  • Jordan Richardson

    In other words, we can move on from the issue of race when it becomes demonstrably true that race is no longer an issue.

  • http://www.heidicautrell.com Heidi

    If the teachers are pushing a political agenda, take it up with your school board. That isn’t the teacher’s job. There is nothing in those questions or activities that is pushing anything political. Instead it’s pushing kids to take charge of their own educations and to do their best. If you don’t want your child to participate, take it up with your school. I don’t see the need for pushing politics into this discussion. It’s neither left nor right. It is what it is.

    Along with that, I truly hope people aren’t taking the advice of other writers or news commentators and keeping their children home from school with a feigned illness. That’s all we need is to teach our kids that it’s okay to avoid doing things they don’t want to do by calling in sick.

  • http://gaia-health.com Heidi Stevenson

    Heidi, I agree completely.

    — Heidi Stevenson

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    The right sounds like it’s having nightmares sponsored by Joe McCarthy and waking up with a hangover from to many shots of Milton Friedman.

    Eight years is a long time to think you’re gonna rule the world. The indoctrination of children will now be passed to the middle.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    If the teachers are pushing a political agenda, take it up with your school board. That isn’t the teacher’s job.

    Right! Schools are supposed to push a social agenda! The political agenda should be limited to honoring both parties and not playing favorites between them. It’s a tacit agreement. Both dominators get an equal crack at the kids. And then the kids get to make up their minds which side they’re on.

    That’s all we need is to teach our kids that it’s okay to avoid doing things they don’t want to do by calling in sick.

    Well, how else are they supposed to avoid doing things they don’t want to do?

    I offered to homeschool my nephew for the last two years of HS but he would rather hang out with his friends in school*. So, how else is he supposed to escape?

    (*Still, I think he feels much better knowing he could leave prison at any time. Makes it easier to deal with absurd adults when you know you don’t have to.)

    your kids have political opinions?

    My nephew does. His political opinion is that adults don’t know what the hell they’re doing.

    I’ve always wondered that. Why do we teach our kids to share but only up until a certain point before we unveil that the “real lesson” in life is “get it yourself, you lazy bastard”?

    I like this question and I think it points to something about the capacity of human nature.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    your kids have political opinions?

    Politics is part of life, and when the politician-in-chief shoves it down everyone’s throat, then it’s fine for parents to keep their kids home so as to avoid the politician-in-chief. That’s just not only true in the States. Here, teachers know they cannot go into too much detail about certain political realities – especially when someone from the Ministry of Education is around. Truth gets dumbed down until the bureaucrat with the checkbook leaves.

    Trust me, there will be plenty of indoctrination in Obama’s speech, and it will be subtle, not obvious. This guy does want power, and he sees it slipping away. He wants everyone to know Big Brother is always around, if not always watching.

  • Clavos

    @ #78:

    Good pun, Mark!

  • Clavos

    In re racism:

    It is an altogether too facile and shallow retort to Obama criticism.

    I have serious reservations with Obama having everything to do with his (apparent) ideology and nothing to do with his race.

    As I’ve stated in the past, there are a number of African Americans for whom I would vote to elect as President in a heartbeat.

    It’s a false copout to accuse everyone who doesn’t support Obama of racism; there are plenty of ideological grounds for not supporting him if you’re not a liberal.

  • Mark

    Just one factor among many, Clavos.

  • Mark

    Be sure to get your own copy of ‘Neolibs Gone Wild’! $29.95 plus s&h

  • http://www.heidicautrell.com Heidi

    Well, how else are they supposed to avoid doing things they don’t want to do?

    I offered to homeschool my nephew for the last two years of HS but he would rather hang out with his friends in school*. So, how else is he supposed to escape?

    (*Still, I think he feels much better knowing he could leave prison at any time. Makes it easier to deal with absurd adults when you know you don’t have to.)

    Parents can surely pull their children out of a class that they don’t agree with for that one brief period if they truly believe Obama is indoctrinating their children with his speech. Are you seriously wanting to teach your children/sibling’s children/grandchildren/etc. that it’s okay to avoid school (or later on work) because they don’t like what’s going on? Sounds like a bad work ethic in the making to me.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    As I was the one who raised the point, Clavos, let me correct you. This isn’t a case of Obama criticism, something I’m also prepared to do in cases like the ongoing fatal farce in Afghanistan, it is a case of people making ludicrous and somewhat hysterical objections to the President of the USA making a speech directed towards children, in which nobody knows yet what exactly will be said.

    I don’t know about ideological grounds for not supporting him as I distrust ideologies as much as I distrust faithism, although you seem to be firmly committed to several, I just take things on a case by case basis.

  • http://mizbviewsfromthetower.blogspot.com Jeanne Browne

    Christine, I could not disagree with you more! This speech to school children is NOT about furthering the president’s “agenda,” it’s about the President of the United States taking the time and initiative to encourage kids to take school seriously and engage in civic involvement. The fact that you (obviously) disagree with his politics as a Democrat does not change the fact that he is EVERYBODY’s president, and ignorance & lack of civic involvement is a national crisis. There are too many stupid, disengaged people out there as it is. I’m confident that many of the parents who are so concerned about their kids listening to the president have no problem with their kids watching “American Idol” and sending text messages to their friends about nothing at every opportunity. I doubt very much that your concern about the president addressing school children would not exist if the president were still George W. Bush or some other Conservative. If you and those who feel as you do are raising your children to have certain values and ideas, why are you so afraid of having them “exposed” to a message by the president and being engaged in activities to help them consider the importance of their education and their roles as citizens? It’s YOUR bias, YOUR agenda and YOUR fear that comes through in this article. All Americans should be involved in a national discussion of government policy, and all children should be taught the skill of critical thinking. Clearly, you don’t trust the impact of your own teaching as a parent and it’s more important to you that your child not be exposed to any ideas but yours. And what do you seem most distressed by in your response to those commenting here? That someone used “the F word”! The F word that interests me is FREEDOM, including freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom (and capacity) to disagree and “speak truth to power,” whatever your idea of truth may be. I hope that despite your best efforts, your child grows up to be more open-minded and capable of debate than her mother.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Are you seriously wanting to teach your children/sibling’s children/grandchildren/etc. that it’s okay to avoid school (or later on work) because they don’t like what’s going on?

    Yes. That sounds right. Only I would hope they’d learn to avoid them in a more meaningful way. Like by not getting (or remaining in) a job they don’t like.

    Or by not going to HS at all. (Though college is something I’d imagine they could handle. BTW – you don’t need HS for college. HS is to indoctrinate children not to assist them in becoming thinkers.)

    Sounds like a bad work ethic in the making to me.

    Yes, I would hope it is a bad work ethic. Work is something people do. It is part of each human, as a creative being, to work. It should not be sullied with ideas of ethics. The work ethic is an invention to make insecure slaves point at each other in accusation whilst giving themselves something to feel ‘okay’ about.

    I prefer my progeny to feel okay because they are okay. And choose work because it is rewarding to them–on a personal and creative level or because they just like it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Oh, and grammar school is out too. I will be prepared to volunteer my services homeschooling my great nieces and nephews if life permits.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Oh I left off that no one in their right mind would do the ‘work’ expected of them without the artifice of a work ethic to psychologically punish them.

  • zingzing

    “Trust me, there will be plenty of indoctrination in Obama’s speech, and it will be subtle, not obvious. This guy does want power, and he sees it slipping away. He wants everyone to know Big Brother is always around, if not always watching.”

    dude. the vast majority of these kids will not be able to vote for him. if he just wants power, he’s wasting his time with this. if he couldn’t figure that out for himself, someone would have told him. mathematically, as well as strategically, talking to school kids as a form of power grab is just useless. besides, he’s already got the youth vote. if he was doing what you are saying he is doing, it would be much smarter to address the nation’s senior homes. but you were just being silly, right?

  • Mark

    Zing, he clearly intends to use the kids to turn in their parents for wrongthink.

  • Baronius

    Maybe you have to have kids for this story to scare you. It doesn’t concern me in the least. Obama’s proving himself to have no skills whatsoever except inspiring people. If he can inspire some inner-city black kids to take education seriously, then I say, let him give the morning announcements over the intercom every day for the next 3 and a half years.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    102 – Jeanne Browne, like I said in the article, it’s not the speech but the curriculum attached to this event by the DOE. Your attack on my parenting of which you know NOTHING ABOUT, hits way below the belt. It’s too bad you are that mean spirited. Please leave me alone!

  • zingzing

    christine 109–your skin is too thin. can see the hot air in your lungs. you don’t agree with what she has to say, so you tell her that she’s mean-spirited and should be silent, eh? that’s no way to foster debate on the subject.

  • zingzing

    mark: “Zing, he clearly intends to use the kids to turn in their parents for wrongthink.”

    clearly. it’s obvious to anyone seeing events from the clear, unobstructed view in… israel. now let’s go nuke iran and assassinate everyone else.

  • Mark

    Let’s Rock and Roll!

    (…hootchie coo?)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Zing, debating my opinions based on the article is one thing. But I never said I wouldn’t let my daughter listen to Obama’s speech. In fact we have watched most of his speeches together.

    Most critics of this article prefer to hear what they want and interpret it their way….For this person to attack my parenting is not relevant to this debate. Silent in her attacks on my parenting.

  • Clavos

    @ 101:

    This isn’t a case of Obama criticism,…it is a case of people making ludicrous and somewhat hysterical objections to the President of the USA making a speech…

    That, of course, is a subjective opinion, to which you are entitled, but as such does not constitute a correction.

    And my point about the attribution of every opposition to Obama being racially based still stands.

    It’s demeaning (to both sides) and ridiculous.

    Come to think of it, maybe intentionally so.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “And my point about the attribution of every opposition to Obama being racially based still stands.”

    well, that’s a pretty obvious truth. not that anyone ever said that “every opposition to Obama being racially based” or anything.

  • zingzing

    swap “being” for “is” and that sentence suddenly makes more sense.

  • Mark

    Baronius #108, I’m with you. Maybe that would keep him away from those bloodthirsty National Security Briefings.

  • Clavos

    not that anyone ever said that “every opposition to Obama being racially based” or anything.

    The hell you say. The accusation is hurled at nearly everyone who is opposed to Obama and his policies.

  • Mark

    So Clavos, are you saying that no opposition to Obama is racially based?

  • zingzing

    “The hell you say. The accusation is hurled at nearly everyone who is opposed to Obama and his policies.”

    bullshit. it’s often floated as a possibility, but everyone knows that not every rightwinger is racist. have you been accused of being racist every time you open your mouth about obama? no, you haven’t. you may have been once or twice, but if you’re going to use the word “every,” you had better back it up. otherwise, it’s just hyperbole.

  • Cindy Kidwell

    I hope we realize that we are setting precedent here. The is definitely not the first time a US leader has addressed the nation’s youth. Furthermore, if we want to be in an uproar over school work regarding politicians we better get ready to burn all of the history books and not plan on printing any more. What do you think kids are supposed to do in History class? Oh, maybe it’s ok for us to learn about some figures in our country and not others? This scenario seem vaguely familiar. Is that what we are agreeing on now? We must be willing to agree that the harsh choices we make now will be followed for all future leaders. BTW-I distinctly remember heavy news coverage of Bush reading to kids. And wasn’t there something about some important guy telling a kid that we spell it potatoe, wait maybe it is potato–who knows (yes, I know the right way is potato). The point is that according to what I read, President Obama isn’t doing something that has never been done before. The only difference here is that Obama is doing it. I can’t wait to see how this turns our. Will we all turn into zombies on Sept. 8?

  • Clavos

    So Clavos, are you saying that no opposition to Obama is racially based?

    Of course not, Mark.

    It happens often enough to be insulting, though.

  • Clavos

    it’s often floated as a possibility

    You deride my “hyperbole.”

    Oh, the irony. The irony.

  • Mark

    Fair enough, Clavos. I was worried that you’d gone off the deep end for a moment.

  • zingzing

    does anyone else think that the right’s accusation that the left is accusing them of racism is becoming a bit hammy? as if they are trying to use it to end debate, taking hold of the word “race” whenever it is mentioned and running hog-wild with it?

    of course, they accuse us of just yelling “racist!,” but at the same time, they accuse us of that even if it never happened. it’s like they’re trying to cow (let’s see how many animal references i can cram in here…) us into submission and into forgetting certain realities.

    denying that racism has absolutely anything to do with some aspects of the right wing’s disdain for obama would be disingenuous, but no one is saying that that’s the major reason why the disdain exists. the only people saying that are rightwingers putting words in the mouths of leftwingers.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The people who are most easily inspired – as well as indoctrinated – are children. Start ’em young, start ’em early, and make sure they know who the Leader is. That is what this speech is all about. You can all think what you want, but there he is, the prince of the setting sun, hustling his image at America’s schoolchildren from his bully pulpit. This is not about votes, it is about building a cult of personality.

  • An educated Mom

    The school system is public, which means you can go there. If you are so concerned about the presidential address DO the right parental thing. Go to school with your child. Gather the facts; be present. This teaches your child respect for the president and the ability to understand and two sides of a view. Teach your children to think. Stop acting like they live in bubbles and will not have to deal with reality.

  • zingzing

    “You deride my “hyperbole.” Oh, the irony. The irony.”

    yeah, well, i did say “often,” didn’t i? so “less irony. less irony.”

    you said “my point about the attribution of every opposition to Obama being racially based still stands,” which is utter bullshit and hyperbole. it’s simply untrue.

    what i said was that “racism is often floated as a possibility,” which maybe be somewhat rhetorically slanted, i’ll admit, but it’s not an out-and-out lie like what you wrote.

  • Mark

    Ruvy #126, so what else is new?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    This thread is far too entertaining for me to comment on.

    Oh fuck.

    😉

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “This is not about votes, it is about building a cult of personality.”

    ever heard of term limits? oh, i see… you think he’s setting himself up as dictator. where will it end? next, he’ll annex canada and turn mexico into his personal vacation land/drug cartel. then he’ll slowly but surely smile his way into world domination. imagine that! israel, ruled over by a man with the middle name hussein… crazy, huh?

    after that, of course, he’ll send all the jews to the moon and all the right wingers will be dropped off on what was formerly known as jupiter, but named obamiter (he named it after himself). he’s going to reinstate pluto as a planet, because who wants to rule over a planetoid? huh? no one wants to rule a planetoid.

    oh yeah, once he has control over the entire solar system (the sun is his oven, don’t you know), he’ll set about really getting down to destroying america. america will be labeled the “executive washroom,” and all its rivers will run with sewage (not that they don’t already…)

    right? right? RIGHT?

  • pissedoffparent

    zing you will be one of the first idiots to march right into the fire. I am the parent, not the government. I don’t want him in the white house let alone my childs school.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    …if we want to be in an uproar over school work regarding politicians we better get ready to burn all of the history books and not plan on printing any more. What do you think kids are supposed to do in History class?

    There is something worth thinking about. And I didn’t doubt you for a moment on that ‘potato’ thing. :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ A Ridiculous Clown Then Magically Appeared

    Hurry, she said, there’s so much to do and so little time.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    At comment #131.

    That’s nice. There are more important things in the world going on besides your little Leader’s speech that you all get worked up over. I don’t trust the bum, and seeing how he distorted events in Honduras, distorted history to kiss ass in Egypt; kisses up to the evil bastards in the world while screwing over the decent people – not to mention how much money he has spent to make sure nobody sees the birth certificate he probably doesn’t have; it would not surprise me if he tried to set himself up as dictator in your country.

    But hey, its really your problem, or to be more precise, the problem of parents who do not want their kid propagandized by a power-hungry little Chicago sleazebucket.

    As to the rest of the American sheeple.

    Ba-aa-ah!

  • Mark

    Ain’t it the truth.

  • Mark

    (#136 applies to both 135 and 134)

  • Clavos

    the only people saying that are rightwingers putting words in the mouths of leftwingers.

    Hyperbole.

    And BS.

  • Richard

    zingzing, or whatever your real name is and Jordan,

    We don’t hate the president, we just don’t trust him. Look at his approval ratings and his failures so far. He is a basket case for a president. He is the last person in the world I want my kids listening to.

    The American Public went brain dead for one election. Now that there is pain, it won’t happen again. I pray that the President would gain wisdom and hope someday that my prayers will be answered. But until then it is very difficult to trust such a failure as Obama.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “sheeple.”

    oh for fuck’s sake.

    “it would not surprise me if he tried to set himself up as dictator in your country.”

    of course, it wouldn’t work… but let’s ignore that little hitch in your fantasy.

    pissedoffparent: “zing you will be one of the first idiots to march right into the fire.”

    they’re marching people into fires? and since i’m on the right (left) side of this argument, what makes you think they’d march me into a fire? wouldn’t i be one of the ones marching people like you into said fire? who started this fire? if i’m walking into it, then it’s you people who did it… are you trying to set up a rightwing dictatorship? good god, i hadn’t thought of that possibility. “george w. bush–the return of the decider.”

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Hyperbole. And BS.”

    well i’ve yet to hear anyone seriously state that “every attack on obama is racially motivated,” except for you. if you can point to any left-winger (that isn’t insane) explicitly stating that as a fact, i’ll bow down. but i can name one rightwinger who stated it (and doesn’t think himself to be insane): clavos. know him?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    This teaches your child respect for the president and the ability to understand and two sides of a view.

    Respecting presidents and learning about the two-sides of the view they can choose from. That is as good a definition as I have seen for school.

  • Mark

    I hear that there is a trick to walking over hot coals through the fire.

  • andwhat

    Look the TV that babysits most of your kids for some part of the day is forcing more prooganda on them then Obama ever will! Your kids are safer watching him than they are the Fox news! You alarmist are pathetic! God forbid your kids be taught to be free thinkers, what a horrible existance that would be. If you look at the “Menu” its questions that prepare kids for future presidents as well. Its not an Obama fest so you can go ahead and can the “its an Ego thing” arguement too. I haven’t hear a logical reason yet why this is a bad thing.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    i just viewed a video with a bit from an ayn rand book: objectivist cultural change via academia.

    Quote: “We need an educational campaign aimed at spreading a new philosophy to make people understand what are individual rights and why altruism is wrong.”

    i hope no one minds, but i’d like to start the bonfire by tossing in anyone who agrees with that.

  • Mark

    lol Cindy

    It’s tough out there for a pacifist.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    God forbid your kids be taught to be free thinkers, what a horrible existance that would be.

    Indeed, it would be awful as evidenced by the lengths to which everybody goes to prevent any such tragedy from occurring.

    If you look at the “Menu” its questions that prepare kids for future presidents as well.

    Yes! I agree, that is what we need more free-thinkers who are prepared for future presidents.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Mark :-)

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Maybe you have to have kids for this story to scare you.”

    Nope. Just delusions of paranoia.

    “He is the last person in the world I want my kids listening to.”

    Really, Richard? You would rather your children listening to Al Queda and child molesters over the President in part because of his current approval numbers? I am not sure you are one to ascertain when the American public went brain dead

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    If you want independent thinkers for kids, shut off the TV. That’s what we did – for the most part. But be warned, independent thinkers will demand real answers and won’t accept bullshit.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “The people who are most easily inspired – as well as indoctrinated – are children. Start ’em young, start ’em early, and make sure they know who the Leader is.”

    Your thinking about religion. And stop talking about America

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Your thinking about religion.

    Yes! If we are going to indoctrinate children I always prefer the natural brand vs the supernatural one. Natural stuff is healthier.

  • zingzing
  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    EB,

    I’ll talk about what I please, and comment as I please. Having lived in America for five decades, I know a lot about the land of my birth. When you’ve lived in Israel for five years you can talk all you want – you will actually know something. In the meantime – you don’t.

    And no, I’m not talking about religion – I’m talking about politics. If it looks like religion to you, then remember how closely the two are related, in spite of all your attempts to separate the two.

  • Richard

    El Bicho – or whoever you are.

    Your comments are completely insane. I’ll pray for you to find wisdom as well.

    I raise my kids using the garbage in=garbage out philosophy. So far the Teleprompters words that Obama speaks=garbage. Obviously from your post directed toward me. El Bicho=Garbage too. Meaningless entertainment, but garbage. LOL

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Much of Reagan’s speech that day covered the American ‘vision of self-government’ and the need ‘to keep faith with the unfinished vision of the greatness and wonder of America’ but in the middle of the speech, the president went off on a tangent about the importance of low taxes…

    I’m missing something. What part of that isn’t the propaganda part?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Richard or whatever you are.

    What planet are you from, btw?

  • Richard

    zingzing,

    Big difference between Reaganomics and Obamanomics. Reaganomics actually worked. Think about it; Spend almost $800,000,000,000 and produce 100,000 jobs when we are loosing 500,000 jobs a month? that is $8,000,000 per job. No that is government efficiency at its best 😉

  • Baronius

    Zing, I don’t know that any president has ever given a speech to all the children of America without their parents present. The technology didn’t exist until recently. You can’t compare that to Reagan speaking to a roomful of children.

    Clavos, you’re right on the racism thing. Zing’s parsings on the subject are nonsense.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    God forbid your kids be taught to be free thinkers, what a horrible existance that would be.

    Spoken like someone who has never had a kid in public school, sat in a public school classroom or even visited a public school.

    Free thinking in a public school is an oxymoron.

    Dave

  • Richard

    You guys crack me up. I never knew people like you guys existed, but I guess you do. I will pray for you too.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    If you want to see why people are concerned about this and about the level of indoctrination in public schools in general, watch this video from a Swedish documentary. Don’t worry, the important part is in English.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    richard: “Big difference between Reaganomics and Obamanomics. Reaganomics actually worked.”

    oh yeah?

    baronius: “Zing, I don’t know that any president has ever given a speech to all the children of America without their parents present. The technology didn’t exist until recently. You can’t compare that to Reagan speaking to a roomful of children.”

    sure i can compare the two. that’s what comparisons are. and there are enough similarities between what’s going on here and what’s going on now that it’s completely valid to make a comparison. why is it ok for reagan to talk to students about economics and taxation, while it’s not ok for obama to talk to students about education? just because he’s talking to more of them? pssh.

    “Clavos, you’re right on the racism thing. Zing’s parsings on the subject are nonsense.”

    so every time someone on the left criticizes your dislike for obama, it’s because they think you’re a racist, eh? that’s what clavos said… and i don’t think he’s a racist, and neither are you, so that’s match. how’s that “nonsense?” if that’s what you think, you’re worse than we are.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Dave thanks for pulling out that video!

  • zingzing

    richard: “I never knew people like you guys existed, but I guess you do. I will pray for you too.”

    what world do you live in? and keep your prayers to yourself.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Richard from wherever your from,

    $8,000,000.00/job? That is terrible! I think that we should forgo all future speeches during presidential campaigns. I suggest we bring back Supermarket Sweep. Each presidential candidate and running mate can appear as a team. Then people can choose who to vote for based on the winner.

    Makes as much sense as anything else, to me. What do you say?

  • zingzing

    also, baronius, as to your “the technology didn’t exist” and “I don’t know that any president has ever given a speech to all the children of America without their parents present” bits, you obviously ignored or missed the following:

    “According to press secretary Marvin Fitzwater, the speech was broadcast live and rebroadcast by C-Span, and Instructional Television Network fed the program “to schools nationwide on three different days.”

    so, yes, the technology existed, and yes, he addressed schools “nationwide,” without the use of permission slips. so… now are they comparable?

  • Cindy Kidwell

    Yes, Baronius, the only group dealing with educational strife is the “inner-city black kids” as you so intelligently pointed out. And thank you for also realizing that Obama has just the ONE worthless gift of inspiring others. Because of your comments it has become so much clearer where some of the nations problems are really coming from.

  • Cindy Kidwell

    This response is for “An educated Mom”. Your comment makes too much sense and rings too true. I’m surprised I don’t see anyone bashing you for it because that’s what we do now. As for me, I’m wiping the tears away because I’m so emotional over the shared sentiment. There should be nothing else left to say after your comment. And to those still yapping about this topic–find a way to do what Educated Mom said or just give it a rest from pete’s sake. THANK YOU “An educated Mom”.

  • Sam

    Two or three comments is fine, but some posters go all out. Why not just leave phone numbers or screen names so you can have real conversations?

    Most children end up having the same political views as their parents. So while I see both sides of the Hitler youth-you conservatives are crazy argument, the real problem is politics in a school environment. Some students who watch the speech but get their politics from their parents and the hyperbolic media will surely be pitted against each other as they stand against or behind the President. Of course, the students I am referring to are likely to be in 6th grade an above. So perhaps the motives are good, perhaps they are bad. Regardless, their may be unexpected consequences.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I see you are all still going strong on this, so I borught in something from Pam Geller’s Atlas Shrugged Blogsite. Enjoy. You will see two versions of instructions for teachers issued from the Dept. of Education here. Evidently the first one was too obviously partisan and was scrapped….

    And now I’m outta here. My kids go to school in Israel, and on Tuesday, they will both be in Hebrew-speaking environments, safe from Obama’s trash, whatever it happens to be.

    Later!

  • Clavos

    Baronius is absolutely right, zing you’re harping on my careless omission of “nearly” before “everybody,” and using it in an underhanded attempt to distract from my basic point.

    Not the first time I’ve seen you use dishonesty in an argument.

  • zingzing

    “Not the first time I’ve seen you use dishonesty in an argument.”

    ok… i just used your words. if you meant “nearly,” (although i still think that’s a bit strong), why didn’t you say so a few hours ago? would have diffused my point completely. and i wasn’t being dishonest at all. at first, i was trying to push you into qualifying your statement, as i knew you couldn’t be that ridiculous, but then when you didn’t, i started to wonder if you really meant it.

    it’s not my fault that you argued an indefensible point, and it doesn’t make me dishonest. and i’ve seen you use dishonesty in an argument before too, so don’t stick your tongue out at me.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    what’s so insane, Richard? you wrote “[Obama] is the last person in the world I want my kids listening to.” Did you not realize that put everyone else in front of him?

    “I raise my kids using the garbage in=garbage out philosophy.”

    From your comments so far, it’s certainly evident that’s what you give them. And save your condescending offers of prayer for someone who believes they would work

  • coy matlock

    You know life is not hard. People make life hard. Politics is not the issue hear folks. The issue is the kids. Who should know whats best for the children. I believe the answer is the parents. No one has the best interest of a child more than the childs parents. Before the school does anything different than normal activitys in a school it is usually school policy to get the parents aproval, or at least notify the parents. You know, for example schools can not paddle a child if the parent forbids it. So there for why should my child no anything in school that is out of the usual without my concent. You see how simple that was folks. The bottom line is freedom of chose. When my three boys are grown hopefully they will have freedom of choss (but intell they are it is and will be my freedom of choss) History is hear to learn from it. If history tells you anything it is the government lies to the people. They make something out to be one thing, and make it something else. If they told it like it was they would hardly be able to do anything. My chose will be that my boys will not be in school period on September 8th 2009 weather the school shows this or not just in case. He who trust in man is curst by man. He who believeth in the lord is blest by the lord. God bless all who use the wisdom god give them.

  • zingzing

    **shudder**

  • Clavos

    if you meant “nearly,” (although i still think that’s a bit strong), why didn’t you say so a few hours ago?

    I did, abot 6 hours ago:

    118 – Clavos
    Sep 03, 2009 at 10:38 am

    not that anyone ever said that “every opposition to Obama being racially based” or anything.

    The hell you say. The accusation is hurled at nearly everyone who is opposed to Obama and his policies.

  • Cindy Kidwell

    Wow! Just finished reading “Pam Geller’s Atlas Shrugged Blogsite” as suggested by another poster. Then I went to Ed.gov. I’m just shocked at how some people can interpret things. I couldn’t see what the problem was when I read the Blogsite so naturally I thought I was misunderstanding things so I went back to Ed.gov. I still don’t get it. Since when did goal setting and focusing on how to be a successful contributing part of society become evil? Also, did I miss something about the fact that this is not mandatory? This is a VOLUNTARY event. All of this sound like what I’ve been telling my daughter for years. I’m so glad I went on these sites. I wasn’t going to participate in this before but now that I see the “Prek-6 Menu” (2 pages) and the “Grades 7-12 Menu” (4 pages)I know it’s something I want to hear. People, go directly to Ed.gov and read for yourself. Don’t read about someone else blogging on it because I noticed the full text is not even there–just small bits pieced together and other links that take you to like-minded sites. Do your own research on the full text and use original sources! This goes for everything not just this topic.

  • zingzing

    well, alright then. didn’t see that. still think it’s a bit hyperbolic (word of the day), and “the hell you say,” in response to “not that anyone ever said ‘every opposition to obama is racially based” and then “sneaking” in that “nearly” does kinda ruin your “the hell you say.”

    i think you can figure out that my point was that “every opposition…” is a ridiculous, false statement. you can say that racism is sometimes used by the left against right in these matters, but to claim that it is the overwhelming argument that we use is kinda silly. even in this thread, it only came up once (as far as i know) and was heavily qualified.

    but i’ll admit that you did use the word “nearly,” and therefore get away with it.

  • Baronius

    Let’s drop the every-every formulation. Are there any Obama critics who haven’t been called racists? Are there any issues about which criticism hasn’t been labeled racist?

    I’ve seen critics of Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton accused of racism.

  • zingzing

    baronius, i’m sure there are plenty of obama critics who haven’t been labeled racist. i mean, even if a critic has been labeled a racist one time by some far left nutjob, does that count? of course, asking someone to prove that a particular critic has not been labeled a racist (even discounting obvious button-pushing,) would be nearly impossible. you’d have to wander to every last corner of the internet, print media and television, read every comment or every review, hoping that you’ve covered all your bases.

    shit, even obama has been labeled a racist countless times by the right wing media. and the right wing accuses the left wing of being racist (in reference to obama) plenty as well. this sword swings both ways.

  • Clavos

    I’ve seen morons like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton accuse everyone who opposes Obama of doing so for racial reasons.

    And on Fox no less.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    *holds hand up* I’ll volunteer as an Obama critic that has never been labeled racist.

    Why do you think that is?

    Anyone?

  • Baronius

    Obama is accused of racism for his comments and actions about race. The right wing is accused of racism for anything – earlier on this thread, for opposing the presidential address.

    And why is it ok to push buttons on this issue? That would indicate that the left doesn’t take accusations of racism seriously, that they throw them around for effect. If you want to admit that, feel free. But you’ll never again be able to claim that you’re opposed to racism, because of your willingness to cry wolf.

    I’d be curious to hear from my fellow conservatives if they’ve never been accused of racism, or if they know of an issue that’s been discussed without such accusations.

  • Baronius

    Cindy – because you hurl the charge first?

  • zingzing

    “Obama is accused of racism for his comments and actions about race.”

    oh, malarkey. that’s just trumped-up bullshit. if he had said “that white cracka pig acted stupidly,” that would have been racism. do you think he’s a racist? i think it’s pretty damn obvious that he’s not.

    “The right wing is accused of racism for anything – earlier on this thread, for opposing the presidential address.”

    oh, malarkey. go read what was written. it’s not saying that the right wing is racist. it’s saying that some people on the right wing (note the qualifier) could (qualifier) possibly (qualifier) oppose obama for racist reasons.

    “And why is it ok to push buttons on this issue? ”

    because some people just do it to rile people up, not to add to an honest discussion. it’s possible that they have no interest in politics either way but just like a good argument.

    “But you’ll never again be able to claim that you’re opposed to racism, because of your willingness to cry wolf.”

    i don’t see how one follows the other. and when was anyone crying wolf?

    “I’d be curious to hear from my fellow conservatives if they’ve never been accused of racism, or if they know of an issue that’s been discussed without such accusations.”

    jesus christ. i’ve been accused of racism. EVERYONE has been accused of racism. you guys use it as much as we do, you know. everyone uses it. how many times have you seen lines like “the democratic party is racist?” all the fucking time. so don’t get on a high horse, because you’re just as bad as the rest of us.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Cindy – because you hurl the charge first?”

    see, that’s what i was talking about. rightwingers are always saying that leftwingers throw out charges of racism everywhere. even though cindy has said nothing about anyone on the right being a racist, baronius has to go and fucking put words in her mouth. YOU DO REALIZE THAT THAT’S JUST AS STUPID, RIGHT?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Yep… this is still one of the funnest BC threads in ages. And all over some silly paranoid notion.

    It is, I suppose, indicative of the general calibre of political debate in the US these days that it’s the silly paranoid notions which generate the most heated arguments…

    I for one don’t routinely accuse Obama’s critics of racism. Who gives a shit anyway? Hell, I forget the guy’s even black most of the time.

    This is all great fun, but Richard’s $8,000,000 jobs claim is the one that takes the cake so far. The equation’s a bit more complicated than that, mate…

  • http://gaia-health.com Heidi Stevenson

    Cindy – You go girl!

    I’m an Obama critic, too – from the left, not the right.

  • http://gaia-health.com Heidi Stevenson

    Dr. Dreadful – Obama’s black? Does it have something to do with his sense of rhythm?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Hey all: I see there are some new GREAT articles here on blogctrics!

  • zingzing

    doc: “This is all great fun, but Richard’s $8,000,000 jobs claim is the one that takes the cake so far. The equation’s a bit more complicated than that, mate…”

    what makes you think he was using mathematics?

  • zingzing

    is that blogctrics.com or blogctrics.org? my browser doesn’t seem to think it exists. i kid, i kid. why you trying to push people away from your article? it’s such fun watching all the nutters come out.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    what makes you think he was using mathematics?

    Whenh I was in first year infants’ (equivalent to your kindergarten), we called it ‘Number’. That’s probably about the level at which he flunked out… :-)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    This was during the Vietnam War: hence my quirky spelling of ‘when’.

  • bandit

    This whole issue saddens me!!! Here we are living in “free” America and so paranoid-what has happened??? In 2003 the people who spoke out about attacking an autonomous nation were labeled “unpatriotic” – freedom of thought challenged. Yet it seems there was much truth in their point of view. If we dont teach our children to listen and analyze, we will be a nation ripe for the taking. Why are we so afraid? How have we gotten to this point?? I believe it is time for everyone to take a look at the fall of the Roman Republic and THINK about our status domestically and internationally; especially our political leaders whom we elect to represent us but all they do is polarize for their own party not for the American people.

  • Baronius

    Zing, I don’t recall ever seeing you dig in your heels so deep on an obviously unwinnable proposition.

    Of course false accusations of racism lessen the seriousness of the charge. The fact that Cindy and others toss around accusations casually is a matter of record. Also, when the Democratic Party is accused of racism, there’s usually a context related to race. When the Republican Party is accused of racism, it’s about cap-and-trade, taxes, the weather, just about anything.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Christine,

    You’ve surely hit a gold mine. I’ve never seen such an odd mix of off-the-wall responses. This thread should earn the distinction of being one in a million.

    Good work, kid.

  • Arch Conservative

    Obama’s an arrogant, elitist, douchebag. there’s no getting around that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose an arrogant douchabag would be one that’s refuses to do its job. So it’s back to home remedies like rinsing and whatnot.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “when the Democratic Party is accused of racism, there’s usually a context related to race. When the Republican Party is accused of racism, it’s about cap-and-trade, taxes, the weather, just about anything.”

    For Baronius, when the charge is against the Dems, it’s true, and when the charge’s against the Repubs, it’s false, revealing him to either be poorly informed, disingenuous, or ____________.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Arch, are you jealous that you are only two out of three?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger, that wasn’t my intent at all, in fact I made a special announcement earlier and I guess it was ignored.

    191 – Christine
    Sep 03, 2009 at 2:48 pm
    Hey all: I see there are some new GREAT articles here on blogctrics!

    Thanks for making me laugh, it’s been brutal! LOL

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wouldn’t worry, Christine. Enjoy the limelight.

  • MarySue

    yeah World Net Daily, thats a credible site

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Baronius,

    Most of what I say, whilst said in a casual way, is not casual at all.

    Not for the first time, I suspect that you see the world as as collection of discrete circumstances/activities. As if everything is disconnected and one thing doesn’t have an effect on another. True or false?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Actually no, Heidi (190). He’s terrible at bowling.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    189

    Hiya, Heidi Stevenson from the left. :-)

  • Baronius

    Come on, El B. This is pretty straightforward. I take charges of racism seriously when they have something to do with race. When they don’t, I don’t. Opposing Ted Kennedy’s abortion policies isn’t racism. Supporting quotas is racism. See, the key distinction here is that one of them has to do with race, and the other one doesn’t.

    Now you try one: the stimulus package. Got it? If you said racist, you were wrong. You can tell because it has nothing to do with race. Opposing something that a black president supports isn’t racist, because it has nothing to do with race.

    Here are a few more. Work on these, and if you get them all right, then we can move on:

    – the existence of hurricanes
    – the claim that Latinas make better judges
    – the death penalty

  • zingzing

    “Zing, I don’t recall ever seeing you dig in your heels so deep on an obviously unwinnable proposition.”

    you’re kidding.

    “Of course false accusations of racism lessen the seriousness of the charge. The fact that Cindy and others toss around accusations casually is a matter of record. Also, when the Democratic Party is accused of racism, there’s usually a context related to race. When the Republican Party is accused of racism, it’s about cap-and-trade, taxes, the weather, just about anything.”

    you’re kidding.

    you guys play the race card just as much as we do. whether you’re calling someone a racist or crying wolf about people calling you a racist (“the weather?”), it’s all the race card. “race-baiting” is the race card. jesus christ. talk about unwinnable.

    you’re crying wolf right now.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    So basically, Baronius, you’re denying what most of us, I imagine, take as personal experience–racists attack people based on their race, but also on their ideas and their actions.

    So, if I hated people based on their race, I might have trouble with everything about them. I might criticize their clothes, for example. You would call a foul and limit the discussion to fashion?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Sorry, but we can’t move on because your examples show how ill-equipped you are to have a serious discussion since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

    There was no claim that Latinas make better judges. She was referring the idea that she believes “gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging.” Did you actually read the entire speech or even the paragraph that line was contained?

    And if you think race hasn’t played a factor in the use of the death penalty in this country, stop embarrassing yourself now and actually do some research.

  • Clavos

    Does disliking the entire human race make one a racist or just a misanthrope?

    Or maybe a racist misanthrope?

    Or an equal opportunity misanthrope?

    Should a misanthrope who paints swastikas on the globe be tried for hate crimes?

    Is it a crime to rape the Earth?

    I love philosophical inquiry…

  • Clavos

    54 comments???

    That is waaayyy too much zing for me…

  • Clavos

    Even Roger hasn’t commented that many times in one day…

  • Clavos

    Wait up, zing, I’m tryin’ ta catch up here…

    [puff, puff, puff]

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    All of this hoopla because the President is going to talk to our nation’s young? Obama’s trying to inspire and his enemies think his intention is to conspire. Come on, folks. Can’t this guy get a break? Let him speak. Let every school child hear him. And then let the opposition give their rebuttal. Get someone who can talk on a child’s level like Bobby Jindall or Sarah Palin. Then let kids make up their own minds. If we re-channeled some of this absurdity into something proactive we’d be a lot better off. Kids need to learn civic duty and personal accountability from kindergarten. And in teaching these fundamentals of freedom that INCLUDES chats with the President. What’s so bad about that?

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Wait up, zing, I’m tryin’ ta catch up here…”

    wow. well, it’s two days, as i was quite active last night and then today… it’s just this thread, man… so fuckin funny. i didn’t even know i was going for the record, but now that i have it (it is mine, isn’t it?), i guess i have to make a speech.

    alright so, i’d like to thank the author of this marvelous piece for being so utterly, incomprehensibly paranoid and delusional, but protective of her poor, innocent, easily manipulated children. over protective mothers are every child’s dream. i’d like to thank the right, especially the prayers and the god-fearing souls who crawled out of the woodwork. i’d like to thank whoever it was that casually mentioned racism. without him (or her), we never coulda gone off on our marvelous “your side is more racist than my side” tangent. not that we haven’t before. but you know, it’s always good. last, but certainly not least, i’d like to thank my usual buds archie and ruvy for contributing to the cause… oh, oh, and to dave for getting this ball running. without his “texas uproar,” this thing mighta stalled at the gates. if i forgot anybody–i’m lookin’ at you left wing–you’ll just have to excuse me because the list goes on and on and they might just… yep, right on cue, the music begins.

    THANK YOU! (points to the sky, goes the wrong way, is strong-armed into a waiting paddy wagon and beaten within an inch of his life by the russian mafia.)

  • zingzing

    “well, it’s two days, as i was quite active last night and then today”

    i’m a herpes outbreak.

  • Somebody

    The third paragraph implies Arne Duncan is female.. Just saying.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    sorry to burst your bubble, zing, but you might want to wait until Guinness checks in. I would imagine both Roger and Jet have had more in a 24-hour period

  • zingzing

    well, i didn’t win anything except my moment in the spotlight. and i got that. so you can’t take anything away from me. please don’t take this away from me. please.

  • Baronius

    “racists attack people based on their race, but also on their ideas and their actions.”

    Cindy, I’ll tell you why I object to that. First, questioning a person’s motives, rather than addressing his arguments, prevents any further discussion. Secondly, the consistency with which conservatives and even centrists have objected to Carter’s, Gore’s, and Obama’s liberal agendas suggests that the motivation for objecting to liberalism isn’t racial. Thirdly, this theory of underlying racism failed to predict an Obama 2008 victory. So the theory fails functionally, historically, and experimentally.

  • Baronius

    (“the weather?”)

    Zing, don’t you remember hearing that Bush doesn’t care about global warming because the hurricanes are only flooding out black people? So yes, Republicans are accused of encouraging racist weather patterns.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Zing, don’t you remember hearing that Bush doesn’t care about global warming because the hurricanes are only flooding out black people? So yes, Republicans are accused of encouraging racist weather patterns.”

    no, i don’t remember that. that’s ridiculous. i do remember some republican politician’s wife saying that the superdome was a step up for “these people.” or whatever.

    “Thirdly, this theory of underlying racism failed to predict an Obama 2008 victory.”

    how do you reconcile that with your side’s constant calls of “fascism?”

  • Baronius

    El B –

    “There was no claim that Latinas make better judges.” Yes there was, explicitly. “Did you actually read the entire speech or even the paragraph that line was contained?” The whole speech. I thought the issue was foolishness before I read it, but the speech convinced me otherwise.

    “And if you think race hasn’t played a factor in the use of the death penalty in this country, stop embarrassing yourself now and actually do some research.” When adjusted for the crime, a white man is slightly more likely to receive the death penalty than a black man in the US, but not by much.

    So once again, you’ve identified the specific reference to race as non-racist, and the issue that’s unrelated to race as racist. See, that’s the opposite of what you want to do. So let’s try one more time; we can return it to the original topic. Do you think that Christine objects to Obama’s race or his policies?

  • zingzing

    baronius: “When adjusted for the crime, a white man is slightly more likely to receive the death penalty than a black man in the US, but not by much.”

    really? prove that and i won’t murder people. i don’t wanna die. seriously, what statistics are you using, because that sounds mighty fishy to me.

    “Do you think that Christine objects to Obama’s race or his policies?”

    no one thinks christine is a racist. you just think we all do. get over it. move on. dot org, bitch.

  • STM

    EB: “I would imagine both Roger and Jet have had more in a 24-hour period”

    Lol. Jet’s have all been on his own stories and Roger’s … well, I’m not going to say.

  • Katerica

    I dont see why everyone is going so crazy over this. I don’t agree with many things Barack Obama does. I’m not sure if I like the idea of his little speech to our children either, but it seems to me that he simply wants to explain to them how important education is, and how important it is for them to do their best. And I hope he also mentions something about how blessed we are in our country to have a chance to go to school, and how we should not take that chance forgranted.
    Regardless, my children will not see the speech until after I have seen it. And you can bash me for that all you want. Say that I am a right-wing freak.. ect ect, I dont care. Those of us saying that we are going to watch the speech and then decide if we are going to let our children see it have every right to do so, and those of you screaming at us for it have absolutely no right.

  • Mark

    Based on the works of M Rothbard and blogcritics’ own K Jacobine I’ve come up with a new script for this address:

    “Hello kids. Our country is in big trouble because everyone wants something for nothing and that’s costing too much money. So we’re going to do something about that. We’re going to take all public school properties and give them to our best companies named Haliburton and Blackwater and see if they can’t make money with them.

    Change your mindsets, kids. This is private property now — get the fuck outa here. And tell your parents that Social Security is next.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t worry, El Bicho. I’ll let zing hold on to the record. Let this ship of fools sail wherever it may.

  • striker

    This is getting sickening. Go ahead people, keep your kids home. No matter what the President does, you’ll stand up against it. Just because of the “activities”? Anyone who thinks the President can make the school children become Dem’s because of one speech and some activities needs to wake up.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Stick around, Striker. There’s more to come – entertainment galore.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I wonder if the same parents who keep their kids home during the president’s speech also keep their kids home during science class when evolution is taught.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You may have something there, Jordan.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    White House admits that the lesson plans were “inartfully worded”, and are changing them.

  • Mark

    …he is, after all, the Inartful Dodger.

  • somodat

    “And so, my fellow Americans (school children): ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country. Obama is like that annoying person who always makes it about them. If the question would have simply said country instead of president, there would have been no issue. That quote from Kennedy in ’61 is one of the most powerful yet one of THE LEAST controversial statements a president has ever uttered. O loves to be on stage by himself, that’s well documented. It’s always all about the O.

  • zingzing

    “White House admits that the lesson plans were “inartfully worded”, and are changing them.”

    someone needs to go over the lesson plans again, because they is fucked up.

    obama’s been bowing down to you crazies for too long. he needs to grow some balls. startin’ to piss me off.

  • Rebecca Warr

    America is the Leader of the World in just about every thing except Acceptance. Though we have come a long ways since the Civil War and Slavery Days, it is still evident the we are a Prejudice Country. We have an extremely competent President who is highly educated and more intelligent that most of his peers. Though we as American want to nick pick an opportunity for our children to glean from a man, simply because of his color and choice of parties. This is all it is, and nothing less or more that this. Our children learn from us and we show them prejudice and or nonacceptance, in our ways. Why wouldn’t you allow the HEAD of our Country to speak to our children? You have done so it the past and was grateful that the President or even the Vice President took the time out of his busy schedule to input knowledge in our children lives. I am so ashamed of the Leaders we are showing ourselves to be to the World. We are still as ignorant of Life and Acceptance,though our Constitution says that we are all created with the same rights. It is evident by the ones who are causing this problem that we are not. Stop trying to belittle President Obama and allow him to clean up this mess that was started before he even came to office. Just set back and allow God to have his way. We are a Country founded on our faith in God, why are we now turning away? Every President should be given the Highest Respect because all authority is ordained by God and President Obama has shown the American People that he is a Leader of Leaders. All eyes are on us…Let’s Stop Being Bigots.

  • Clavos

    Love that kind of support for the President.

    Gummint schools…

  • Mark

    Just set back and allow God to have his way.

    Why does that sound uncomfortably obscene?

  • zingzing

    “Why does that sound uncomfortably obscene?”

    that’s the way love goes. speak it, janet.

  • Baronius

    Zing, would you like to tell Rebecca that no one’s making accusations of bigotry?

  • zingzing

    i don’t particularly think she’d respond. she’s a god nut. i mean, “just set (sic) back and allow god to have his way?” come on. she’s obviously a little coo-coo.

    then again, i’m bigoted against god nuts. and g-d nuts. and just balls in general. scrotum.

    but you can put her up as an example if you want. it’s just not going to get you too far. i never said that no one was saying this shit, i just said that not everyone is saying it all the time. and if some ridiculous random-capitalization obvious screwball who has trouble forming a sentence (i know, i know,) is someone you want to put up as an example, i point you towards all the god nuts on your side that pray for his death, call him “n—er,” “arab,” etc, and are setting aside real estate in hell for him as they wander around, sucking on their automatic weapons.

    just go to youtube. you’ll find all sorts of right wing goodies.

  • Baronius

    Zing, I wish you hadn’t questioned me on the death penalty statistics. It took a while to track them down, and I had to look through some pretty grim numbers. But it’s there on the BJS website. About half the murders in the US are committed by blacks, half by whites. About half the people on death row are black, half white. And the same holds up for executions.

  • common sense

    Hello, It is apparent that those bashing folks that refuse to let their children participate are drinking too much obama koolaid. Did you read the article associated with these posts? An arts forum where the top discussion was political fodder on health care? Come on, how do you expect parents to react when the government says we’ll talk about one thing and then do something else. What is really discouraging is that folks think obama is the great savior they have been looking for. Obama claimed to save us from ourselves, provide heathcare, education, get us out of the war, and so much more. Well, we have trillions of debt, lots of government owned private businesses (yea, figure that one out), and a stock market lifted up by hyperbole. The only good thing I can see is lots of people that can think for themselves are actually starting to think for themselves! You bashers and cussing idiots on this forum are just like the folks that beat people for thinking a different at health reform town hall meetings. Maybe your really dems hired by dems to make it look like conservatives are causing the problems. Bad handed tactics are the norm for this admin and parents have every right to be concerned. Obama is not doing himself any favors by going into the schools to ‘talk’ with our children after we have seen how he thinks and who he favors.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “About half the murders in the US are committed by blacks, half by whites. About half the people on death row are black, half white. And the same holds up for executions.”

    of course, you have to wonder capital punishment law state-by-state, relative racial population, etc, etc, etc. i am a little surprised by the numbers. i mean, it does look pretty even until you think about the fact that you’re twice as likely to wind up there if you’re black, per capita, whether it be your own fault or not.

    other than gang-related violence, when’s the last time you heard of a black person committing mass murder? white people is bonkers.

  • zingzing

    “You bashers and cussing idiots on this forum are just like the folks that beat people for thinking a different at health reform town hall meetings. Maybe your really dems hired by dems to make it look like conservatives are causing the problems.”

    i’ll hit you if you “think a different” anymore. damn, man, i am so fucking mad at you right now for all that “thinking a different.” maybe you should bring your gun to our little showdown. i’d love to beat your ass while you’re strapped. and then we can make sweet, sweet luvins.

    and yes, i am being paid. blargle. that’s why they show me the big bucks, mr. think a different. i’m going to the toilet. gotta go pick up my paycheck. that’s where my boss sits. he’s the dem on the toilet. he poo-poos republicans. and pays me monies. and thinks a different from you.

  • Baronius

    Zing, if you can go all semanticky on Clavos, you open yourself up to the same treatment.

    227 – “no one thinks christine is a racist”
    245 – “i never said that no one was saying this shit”

    By the way, don’t ever accept any food or drink from a white person. According to the statistics, we’re four times more likely to use poison than a black person is.

  • Mark

    If one lumped brown in with black instead of white, how would those stats look?

  • Mark

    semanticky

    I like it.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Zing, if you can go all semanticky on Clavos, you open yourself up to the same treatment.”

    that’s true, but i was making a point. and you can add the word “sane” into the quote from 227. i won’t mind. saying something and actually believing it are two different things. people are reactionary liars. i am the devil. see? sea? c?

    mark: “If one lumped brown in with black instead of white, how would those stats look?”

    that is a bit of statistical tomfoolery, isn’t it?

  • zingzing

    i also love how the bjs seems to trumpet the fact that we kill as many whites as blacks. fucking sick, it is.

  • Baronius

    Mark, I don’t know. The Bureau of Justice Statistics uses White, Black, and Other. The Other is so small it can’t be hispanic; probably Micronesian and Basque. You could probably aggregate the death penalty data yourself. For my part, I’m sick of looking at racial breakdowns.

  • Mark

    that is a bit of statistical tomfoolery, isn’t it?

    Absolutely! And I would know as Tomfool is my latest emerging sybilline personality.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    247 – common sense
    Sep 04, 2009 at 9:27 am
    Hello, It is apparent that those bashing folks that refuse to let their children participate are drinking too much obama koolaid. Did you read the article associated with these posts?

    Thank you common sense, finally someone is connecting my dots. It is NOT just the speech and the added lessons plans causing concern, it’s this administrations’ track record in infiltrating into everything to push their agenda! Thank you, thank you.

  • Baronius

    Zing and Mark, it’s a little odd that you assume that any statistic you’re not shown would prove your point, and that someone’s trying to hide it from you. Are you sure you should be complaining about other people’s paranoia and ignoring of facts?

  • Mark

    gak…cough cough…gag

    ‘scuse me — hairball

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Baronius,

    To what do you attribute the disparity between imprisoned blacks and whites? Also, to what do you attribute the larger numbers of lower economic status blacks, generally speaking, as compared to whites.

  • Mark

    recovers

    Try to smear me with a conspiratorial brush will you?!! You assume a great deal about a relatively straight forward question.

    virtually and gently though with a clear sense of challenge slaps B across the chops with sequin glove

    Take that!

  • zingzing

    christine: “it’s this administrations’ track record in infiltrating into everything to push their agenda!”

    what the devil are you talking about? (by the way, the obama administration is now developing mind control devices, which they have implanted deep inside my brain and ZZZAAAAP ZZAP ZZZZZZPPPPAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP nothing, nothing at all.)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol , Mark. (gotta love the sequins)

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Zing and Mark, it’s a little odd that you assume that any statistic you’re not shown would prove your point, and that someone’s trying to hide it from you.”

    baronius… latinos are now our largest minority, except according to the bjs.

    “Are you sure you should be complaining about other people’s paranoia and ignoring of facts?”

    quite.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    other than gang-related violence, when’s the last time you heard of a black person committing mass murder?

    Muhammad and Malvo.

    Their case was unusual, but really any case like that is unusual.

    Sorry, zing, but it had to be said.

  • zingzing

    ahh, the snipers? yeah, forgot about them. but it is ridiculously rare, compared to our friendly gun-toting ringwing whitey mass murderers. seems to happen every other week. wonder if there’s been one today? it’s about due.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    some funny stuff in this thread, zing.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    you know, i mean, your stuff, not all the other generally hilarious stuff.

  • Doug Hunter

    “To what do you attribute the disparity between imprisoned blacks and whites? Also, to what do you attribute the larger numbers of lower economic status blacks, generally speaking, as compared to whites.”

    The perfect question and one the vast majority are too scared to ask or answer honestly. You ask about the US, but the trend holds worldwide throughtout virtually every country and every political system. I’ve noted about three possible answers.

    A) White oppression causes blacks (and other minorities) to have higher crime and pursue paths away from education and things that would improve their situation. There are also a small percentage who don’t believe blacks have a higher crime rate and the statistics are massaged by racist whites. This is the path chosen by virtually every liberal, progressive, and left leaning individual (at least in the US)

    B) Disadvantages in black culture and experience lead them to poor choices which are reflected in the statistics. If blacks would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps their incomes, educational achievement, crime, and poverty rates could be virtually identical to other racial groups. If this is the case, then what is needed is one shining example of where, and under what system, this is true (and further how we can bring this equality to the US) This is the PC right wing position and the one with the second largest group of believers mostly from republicans, libertarians, and right wingers.

    C) There are ingrained genetic differences between races, that while small, are real and assert themselves in probabilities which then show up in statistics. Someone in this group, for example, might suggest that Asians generally have more aptitude for certain types of logic or mathematics than most black populations, and that even if a similiar environment could be created for each they never would reach statistical parity. (anyone who would dare suggest genetics could have anything to do with human behaviors or abilities or that certain genes could be more prevalent in certain populations, and especially anyone who puts the two together, is an evil dirty racist outcast ignorant loser)

    My personal opinion is that all of the above have some influence. The only one that I can possibly see being resolved to any degree is the third suggestion as the field of genetics improves. I don’t think that’s going to come close to explaining the achievement gap in full so we’ll be right where we are today in another 50 years. The best thing that can, and is, happening is that races continue to mix to the point that there is no purpose to even studying or attempting to label or analyze races instead of individuals. That’s why I support colorblind policies and dislike even the idea of gathering statistics based on race.

  • zingzing

    pull yourself up by your bootstraps!

    ah, shit, i’m wearing sandles.

  • zingzing

    cindy: “you know, i mean, your stuff, not all the other generally hilarious stuff.”

    i try. of course, given the material, it’s pretty damn easy.

  • Baronius

    Dread, I just saw a funny clip from the show Red Eye (which is Fox’s answer to Jon Stewart, I guess). A black commentator was talking about that topic, that blacks use guns, but only whites go nuts with guns. He added that the DC snipers ruined it for black people.

    Cindy, it’s not my job to explain racial disparities. As I’ve said, I’m not interested in any kind of race-based analysis. I mentioned the problem with inner-city black education because I knew it to be true, and the death penalty myth because I knew it was false.

    Mark – Challenge me, do you?

    calmly and with dignity walks away, slowly increasing speed, eventually breaking into a frantic arms-flailing full-speed run

  • zingzing

    i remember when the right wing was touting the fact that illegal (mexican) immigrants were responsible for some ridiculous amount of murders and rapes and should all be imprisoned or taken to the border and shot. now, it’s like they don’t even exist at all… fantasmas de violadores y de asesinos, or something.

  • Kellie

    Its very interesting that the hostile comments all seem to use curse words and use the Lords name in vain. A coincidence… I think not. So sorry that we care deeply about freedoms, non-indoctrination, and politicians and leftist using any means to push agenda. I’ll bet my life that in some way he will mention health care or the environment. It’s MY job to raise my kids. If Obama wants to teach my kids then he can pay my family child support.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Kellie that’s funny about the “child support”!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Your depiction of Ruvy in front of the mirror tops it all, I dare not comment on the thread for fear of detracting from the impact. Keep on keeping on.

  • zingzing

    “Its very interesting that the hostile comments all seem to use curse words and use the Lords name in vain.”

    there are multiple gods? when did this happen? the return of polytheism! pagan reign! jesus fuckin’ christ. (you know, jesus doesn’t give a shit if you curse.) (and you should learn about apostrophes. back to school with you.)

    “So sorry that we care deeply about freedoms, non-indoctrination, and politicians and leftist using any means to push agenda.”

    dudette. you just probably admitted to being a christian. you’re indoctrinated already. and are we not free to curse? or take names in vain? or are you only for freedoms you like? and you can’t “push agenda.” it just doesn’t make any sense. you seriously need an english class. (obama’s pretty good at english.)

    “I’ll bet my life that in some way he will mention health care or the environment.”

    i’m sure he’ll mention the environment. seems reasonable. do you recycle? if he didn’t mention the environment, he’d be missing an opportunity. and really, the environment isn’t a political issue, except you whackjobs make it into one.

    “If Obama wants to teach my kids then he can pay my family child support.”

    wow. do your kids’ teachers pay you child support? how’d you manage that one? that doesn’t make any legal sense. you should be paying them child support.

  • zingzing

    roger: “Your depiction of Ruvy in front of the mirror tops it all, I dare not comment on the thread for fear of detracting from the impact.”

    that’s just what he wants. comment away, disprove his point. poop on his self-righteous head.

  • Clavos

    mind control devices, which they have implanted deep inside my brain and ZZZAAAAP ZZAP ZZZZZZPPPPAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP nothing, nothing at all.)

    We’ve all known that for a long time.

  • common sense

    “249 – zingzing
    Sep 04, 2009 at 9:46 am
    i’ll hit you if you “think a different” anymore. damn, man, i am so fucking mad at you right now for all that “thinking a different.” maybe you should bring your gun to our little showdown. i’d love to beat your ass while you’re strapped. and then we can make sweet, sweet luvins.
    and yes, i am being paid. blargle. that’s why they show me the big bucks, mr. think a different. i’m going to the toilet. gotta go pick up my paycheck. that’s where my boss sits. he’s the dem on the toilet. he poo-poos republicans. and pays me monies. and thinks a different from you.”

    Thank you proving my point, even underlining and ending my point with an exclamation mark! You do know it was a black, educated, anti-universal health care coverage, thinks a different man that was beat down by the obama koolaid drinkers, don’t you?

  • zingzing

    “You do know it was a black, educated, anti-universal health care coverage, thinks a different man that was beat down by the obama koolaid drinkers, don’t you?”

    you mean the guy that hit a preacher? and didn’t want to go to the hospital? because he had no insurance? then he came back the next day to beg his fellow republicans for money to cover his hospital stay? and he showed up in a wheelchair? which he didn’t need? that guy?

    yeah, i know that guy.

  • Baronius

    Congratulations, Kellie and others, on being mocked for your faith. It’s very Matthew 5:11 (although it feels a lot less blessed when it happens every tenth comment). Usually this site is more civil.

  • MrsKas$money

    I’m a sixth grade world history teacher and I see no problem in viewing this speech. My students will listen to it and be able to discuss THEIR opinion on the matter. From what I understand its simply an encouraging speech to try and keep kids in school and interested. What’s wrong with that? The people who are “up in arms” are probably parents who have kids who will graduate and go on to college etc. This speech is not for their child in the first place. Its for at risk kids who may dropout before they even see the 9th grade. Get over it!

  • Clavos

    I’m sure glad I don’t have any kids in government schools, but not because of Obama or his speech to the kiddies.

  • common sense

    281 – zingzing
    Sep 04, 2009 at 12:28 pm
    you mean the guy that hit a preacher? and didn’t want to go to the hospital?

    Nope, didn’t hear about that guy and even googled for it, to no avail. hmmmm…
    I’m talking about the guy who was handing out flags at a town meeting and was beat down by SEIU goons (a union that represents healthcare, security and public works folks). He was cussed (seems to be some sort of unity between you dems and cussing), kicked, punched and even had racial slurs yelled at him by another black man. The point being that those who support obama don’t want to hear anything that is against obama and his thoughts.

  • Clavos

    SEIU goons (a union that represents healthcare, security and public works folks).

    And janitors. In fact, mostly janitors.

  • Katerica

    zingzing. i know, it makes me sick too, the so called Christians saying that Obama should die ect. But please do not lump us all together. They are the ones that everyone hears about, because they say crap like that. That is the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches, and because they choose to ignore that, we all get looked down upon. We are not all “god freaks” as you put it. And I dont appreciate that.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Hey, I’m a member of the SEIU and I am neither a janitor nor a goon. Next person who says that, I’ll do your legs.

  • Clavos

    Hey, I’m a member of the SEIU and I am neither a janitor nor a goon.

    You got any proof, Doc?

    Thanks for closing my tag, BTW. :-)

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Really Doc? You’ll do my legs?

  • Clavos

    Uh-oh.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    “Common Sense” you didn’t ask me-the Google meister. Here’s the story you missed

    “One of a national series of rallies for health-care reform took a violent turn Wednesday night when, according to authorities in Thousand Oaks, Calif., an unidentified man bit off another man’s pinky finger at the top joint.

    The Thousand Oaks event attracted only about 100 people — a small group compared to the turnout at congressional town halls, which have drawn up to 1,500 people. But their passions were running high, and when a supporter of health-care reform wound up among a group of about 25 counter-protesters, an argument and fistfight broke out, Ventura County Sheriff’s Capt. Frank O’Hanlon told the Associated Press.

    Reports differ on whether the supporter went to confront the opponents intentionally or was just walking among them while trying to cross the street to the pro-reform rally.

    Southern California’s KTLA-TV, which first reported on the fracas, wrote, “The 65-year-old was apparently aggressive and hit the other man, who then retaliated by biting off his attacker’s pinky.”

    The AP reported that the injured man “retrieved the finger and went to a hospital.” The man, identified by ABC News as William Rice, received care from Los Robles Hospital and on Thursday told the Weekly Standard that the hospital was unable to reattach his fingertip. Also on Thursday”

  • zingzing

    katerica: “We are not all “god freaks” as you put it. And I dont appreciate that.”

    oh, don’t get upset. just because i say something doesn’t mean i actually mean what i say. there are plenty of good christians, and i have no problem with them. it’s just too bad that so many bad apples pop up. and especially around here.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You got any proof, Doc?

    I’ve lost my membership card. But I do have a button. Oh, and a lanyard.

    Thanks for closing my tag, BTW. :-)

    You’re welcome.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Really Doc? You’ll do my legs?

    Certainly, Jet. You want razor, wax or sledgehammer?

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    It’s just that the bad ones have bigger mouth’s and better press agents Zing.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    That depends on how much leather you’re willing to wear…….

  • zingzing

    hey, who deleted my response to clavos’ errant attempt at humor, followed by his subsequent bumbling around with the italics and further subsequent repeat post? come on, it was great. bah.

    “We’ve all known that for a long time.”

    that doesn’t quite follow from the sentence structure anyway, buttercup.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I knew this was a bad day when I redid the mast head for my Political page and wound up with an ad from Ann Coulter on it…

  • common sense

    293 – Jet Gardner
    Sep 04, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    Yes, I saw this but it says nothing about hitting a preacher and going to the hospital and coming back for money, etc. Can we chaulk it up to zingzing misrepresenting the facts, like his dem friends in Washington. Same ol’ Washington tactics, just more in your face!

    If you did some more searching you would see that the man that got his finger bit off was actually shoving a women around prior to this altercation and it is perceived that the guy that bit the mans fingertip off had ‘come to the ladies rescue,’ by eye witness accounts. Also, this was done after the guy had punched the finger eater in the face. Still, no sense in punching and biting off a finger tip, but this story has nothing to do with punching a preacher and refusing health care and then begging for money…. Sounds like making up stories for the masses to prove a useless point. Or maybe to prove a point about how dems will do whatever they can to make it sound like they know what is going on. Or better yet, have your own supporters break into offices or spray paint hate symbols, or whatever it takes to spread fear amongst the masses!!!!

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    No we can’t, and how common of you to assume. There were so many different versions of this story-for instance my local news reported he went to the hospital and left refusing to let them reattach his finger tip, though they not only offered, but said they’d do it for free.

    Another version said he was an iron worker instead of a preacher and refused to go to the hospital.

    Is it only true when you say it’s true?

    you only see what you want to see and disregard the rest Mr Sense?

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    The difference between a Republican like “uncommon sense”-and no you’re not all alike-is that Dems listen to everyone and make a decision-your kind of republican ignores everyone but those who agree with you to confirm a decision you’ve already made but needs validation for.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I think the double uh-oh was directed at me Zing and the leather comment was directed at Doc :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Welcome to the fray, Jet Gardner. For a while I thought you’ll be stuck with your own article forever. So again, I’d like to welcome you back to the human race.

    I hope you’re doing OK healthwise.

  • Clavos

    that doesn’t quite follow from the sentence structure anyway, buttercup.

    Don’t care. It got your goat, which was my goal.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    No I’m not, Roger, but that’s a soap opera best left to my personal diary blog instead of here.

    I’m back on my 90mg of Cymbalta a day, so I figured I’d test it out before I upped the dosage by joining in here.

    …I’ll go back and hide under the bed now…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry to hear that. But this thread might be a good therapy. It’s hilarious.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Does anyone know what name my old “friend” is going by nowadays?

  • common sense

    I didn’t say it was true or false, I cited sources. Did you, or your buddy zing? Nope, as can be expected. I see it all and make a decision, because I have the aptitude to do so. Do our children? Not when it comes to political play. Not a kindergarten student, or probably even someone in middle school. High school, yes they can effectively debate the issue.

    Oh, nothing about preacher or iron worker…
    1. Red County
    2. LA Times
    3. KTLA
    4. DrumsnWhistles
    5. Washington Post

    But if it makes you feel better, I found something! A reference of a preacher biting off a steel workers finger during a street brawl many years ago.

    Really folks, you may think your smart and savvy enough to dupe most Americans, but you just won’t succeed. We’ll sit and let you rant and rave, or cuss as uncivilized folks do, but when you press us, we’ll press back and there are just more of us common sense folks than you.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I’m going to wander off and try to figure out how you get Blogger to ban certain orgs from advertising on my political page… I figured it out once a few years ago, but have forgotten and I’m not going to look at Ann Coulter’s ugly puss on my page every time I check it…

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    CS: (:^p~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Careful, now. You’re gonna insult a lot of Republicans who think she’s an ideal woman.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let’s form John Does’s clubs. That will show ’em!

  • common sense

    Good news for all those parents that really care to be a part in their childs education!

    KISD and President Obama’s Speech to School Children

    The KISD plans to provide students and families with a link to the archived copy of President Barack Obama’s speech to school children Tuesday. This is an unprecedented event in our nation’s history and we applaud any and all attention our elected officials can give to the topic of public education. However, KISD will not interrupt our planned scope and sequence to show the speech live in classes Tuesday.

    While this may be the first day of school for many of the nation’s children, it is not for KISD. Our teachers and students are already deep into the instructional delivery of the district’s instructional content and we want to do whatever we can to protect the lessons and activities they already had planned for that day.

    We look forward to hearing this message from our President but we are choosing to allow parents to decide when and where to deliver that message to their children. Once the video has been archived and provided in a format for replay, we’ll provide parents with access to the link on the KISD website.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I’d sooner go to bed with Clavos, Roger.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m not certain that Clavos will be thrilled, but yes, you made your statement.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Oh my, did Zing actually apologize to someone here on this thread?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Clav,

    This thread has me wondering, if I had any kids, if I’d ever let them outside the house. And it has nothing to do with Obama’s speech either. (Or politics even.)

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Well what do you expect in New Jersey?

  • Mark

    Jesus luvs you, Cindy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Jet @ #308: I did check, but AFAIK it’s not him.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Thanks Doc, but I haven’t been around enought to know who that is. I’m just glad to be joking around with you and if the person in mind does show up, I’m to numb to care, or argue with him.

    …may we all breathe a sigh of relief? :)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lmao, Mark!

    There’s a song about what we expect here in NJ, Jet, it even mentions Ohio (you know, where you’re from–where the pasta sauce makes Chef BoyArdee look like Julie Child.) It’s called I’m From New Jersey.

    :-)

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    I heard if you record Obama’s speech to the children and play it backwards, there’s secret messages like “Stairway to Heaven”

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    And if you string every eighth word together you come up with Old people cost too much money, death panels are good.

  • STM

    My favourite misinformation blunder from the looney right in the US on the health care debate and what it might mean:

    Investors’ Business Daily and its editorial comparing “Obamacare” to the British taxpayer funded National Health System (NHS), suggesting the UK had put a price on life and that under Britain’s universal health care system, old people and seriously, chronically ill people like physicist Professor Steven Hawking would not have survived because their lives don’t count.

    Ooops! Hawking is British and continues to live in the UK, not the US. The NHS – as he has told it too – continues to help and fund his care and according to him, saved his life.

    They seemed to be working on the principle that because Hawking’s a world-famous physicist, he MUST either be American or must at the very least live in the US.

    They have – kind of – corrected their editorial (note the correction at the top) but they are still spinning misinformation about what taxpayer funded care might mean for granny.

    My experience of the whole thing in the UK is that since the elderly are generally the people in most need of care, they actually get higher prirority in treatment.

    The British aren’t stupid: if they had a system that was killing off their parents (and ultimately, themselves as they get older), do you think they’d let it go for so long without the entire world hearing about it (from them, that is, not looney right Americans)?

    They have the same democratic rights as Americans to protest.

    The truth is, the British are happy with the NHS, even if – as they admit – it’s not perfect.

    Having had personal experience of it in an emergency many years ago while in the UK, I can tell you that it’s pretty damn good.

    And if they wanted it changed, they’d have agitated against it and voted it out years ago.

    Don’t fall for everything you read. The internet’s a great tool for democracy, but also a great tool for lies, calculated misinformation and gross silliness based on ignorance and conjecture.

  • K- Dee

    Jordon Richardson, You have posted at least 10 comments, no wonder you so strongly support the Obama administration. you have nothing better to do but sit in front of your computer and wait for free government aid. get a job and a life. i have to go back to work now so i can pay for someone elses shit.

  • Clavos

    Investors’ Business Daily and its editorial comparing “Obamacare” to the British taxpayer funded National Health System (NHS), suggesting the UK had put a price on life and that under Britain’s universal health care system, old people and seriously, chronically ill people like physicist Professor Steven Hawking would not have survived because their lives don’t count.

    Well, if the UK hasn’t done so, they should!

    Old, sick people DO cost too much, and do nothing for society.

    And now we’ve got all those damn baby boomers getting old and starting to need too much medical care.

    If Obama isn’t planning death panels, he should be.

    It’s going to take a lot of hard work and planning to off all those boomers.

  • STM

    K-Dee: I’m not my brother’s keeper, but I’ll stick up for him.

    As far as I know he works, pays his taxes (happily, too, as far as I can tell), contributes to society, is not a rabid socialist (most Americans of the looney right persuasion wouldn’t understand the true meaning of the word. Universal health care isn’t socialism) … and, oh, he’s Canadian and lives in Vancouver and is happily exercising his right to free speech, just like you.

    If you’d bothered to read the 10 posts you’re so uppity about you’d have realised that. From what I can see, he’s simply suggesting that some Americans might need to grow up a bit in relation to what’s being said here and has pointed out the stupidity evident from certain sections in much of this debate.

    He’s spot on, too. Opinions and views are one thing, falling for all the bullsh.t and misinformation being touted around out there is another.

  • STM

    Clav: Should I be planning now for my demise? I’m of a certain age.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Don’t care. It got your goat, which was my goal.”

    i didn’t know i had a goat. and if i did get it, you fumbled it without getting out the door…

  • zingzing

    oh, bother.

  • zingzing

    christine: “Oh my, did Zing actually apologize to someone here on this thread?”

    if i have any good reason to apologize i generally will. she was genuine and correct, while also showing how christianity can be a good thing when not perverted by hatred. she also wasn’t some paranoid, delusional nutjob, so that helped.

    i apologize all the time, admit mistakes, etc. (i try not to do so around here all that much–bunch of wolves these people… the first sign of weakness and they’re biting at your scrotum. but on the rare occasion that it is truly warranted, i’ll do so.)

    so, sorry, it won’t happen again. i swear. sheeeiiit.

    now let’s get back to whacking all you paranoid honkey racists in the knees.

  • Jordan Richardson

    K-Dee,

    If that was your dog I ran over, I’m deeply sorry.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Cheers, Stan.

  • K-Dee

    Jordan R. I dont have a dog.However i apologize for that last statement i must be having a bad day.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Not a problem, K-Dee.

  • liam

    what is different about this address to school children is it is creepy, he is asking them to help him(PLEDGE ALLEGIENCE TO THE PRESIDENT). What you dont understand is this is pure in-doctrination straight from the hitler and communist propaganda sheet. If you can not see that then you are a fool and your kids deserve to have the vaccine that obama says is safe even though, hundreds of people testing it have died and its has squaleene in it which is responsible for gulf war syndrome and other diseases. yes once the kids trust the creepy president . the next thing is All Gore telling them to tell on their parents or rat on them because its for their own good\(to save the enviroment)even though he owns huge oil and energy companies(and he sells carbon credits too). This is all wrapped in lovely language so the gullible(and stupid) let the preditors have their way with the kids. IF YOU DON’T SEE THIS YOU ARE A FOOL.

  • Jordan Richardson

    *sigh*

    what is different about this address to school children is it is creepy

    You’ve seen it, have you?

    he is asking them to help him(PLEDGE ALLEGIENCE TO THE PRESIDENT)

    The administration changed the wording so as not to express the altogether horrific notion of “helping the president.” Lord knows Americans needn’t be doing that.

    What you dont understand is this is pure in-doctrination straight from the hitler and communist propaganda sheet.

    Bypassing the silliness of listing communism alongside nazism for a moment, what exactly are the kids being indoctrinated with? I can’t get a straight answer to this because NOBODY’S SEEN THE FUCKING SPEECH!

    If you can not see that then you are a fool and your kids deserve to have the vaccine that obama says is safe

    I assume you’re referring to the swine flu vaccine. What does Barack Obama specifically have to do with the vaccine? Or the United States government? This is an INTERNATIONAL issue; the vaccine will be available INTERNATIONALLY. Does this mean that Obama has somehow concocted the whole thing in an attempt to eradicate pregnant women, children and health care workers around the globe? Do you truly believe this? If so, you might just be clinically insane.

    hundreds of people testing it have died

    Clinical trials for the H1N1 vaccine began in July and will wrap sometime in September. Are you telling me that HUNDREDS of people have died testing this thing?

    The problem with the conspiracy theorists and the vaccines is that there’s this idiotic comparison to what happened in 1976 at the root of it all. I’m talking, of course, about the 500 or so people who contracted Guillain-Barré syndrome as a result of taking the vaccine in 1976. Since then, people have been (probably rightly) concerned with similar vaccines. But this isn’t the same vaccine at all and scientists today use only selected viral proteins in the shots, not the whole virus.

    Incidentally, you can also have different variations of the vaccine. If you’re worried about mercury-based preservative thimerosal, you can request a nasal dosage or single-dose preloaded syringe without it, for example.

    its has squaleene in it which is responsible for gulf war syndrome and other diseases

    Are you referring to squalene? I did a little reading and discovered that squalene is actually used as an adjuvant in many vaccines internationally. There’s no evidence to suggest a danger to squalene and, on the contrary, more evidence to suggest that the natural organic compound that is a “natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterol, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in the human body” is perfectly safe and even beneficial (hence its use in shark liver oil).

    the next thing is All Gore telling them to tell on their parents or rat on them because its for their own good(to save the enviroment)

    Are you suggesting it’s not for our children’s “own good” to “save” the environment? And nevermind Al Gore for a second, as he’s just a spokesperson in the entire climate change thing and a guy who put out a crappy movie. If you think climate change science and the reality behind it begins and ends with Al Gore, well…God help you.

    This is all wrapped in lovely language so the gullible(and stupid) let the preditors have their way with the kids

    I bet you think you’ve got it all figured out, don’t you. The unfortunate thing about weirdos like you, Liam, is that you’ve lost respect for the facts and for the truth.

    You’ve locked yourself in this bizarre web of conspiracies, Glenn Beckisms and other weird shit and shut yourself off completely from reality. It’s frightening to share the planet with someone who’s so mentally dangerous, Liam. It really is and that’s why I bother responding the way I do. That’s why I might say “fuck” a lot in some comments or appear a little emotion. It deeply, deeply frightens me that you live on the same planet I do.

    It also makes me nauseous. It sickens me to see the things political partisanship and batshit crazy conspiracy theories have done to science, religion, philosophy, the environment, healthcare, psychology, art and fucking everything else. It makes me sick to my stomach when I realize how much you and your ilk have poisoned on this planet, how you’ve poisoned discourse down to its lowest common denominator and how everything’s about a “feeling” and not a fact. It’s all about some fucking ridiculous belief you have, some sense of things you’ve cobbled together by seeing too many stupid movies or reading too many science fiction books and never actually reading the science or watching the news that counts.

    I wouldn’t mind so much if you were just tucked in your own little world, Liam. It wouldn’t bother me if you just sat around your trailer with meatball stains on your fucking shirt and a cigarette tucked into that little spot you’ve got where a tooth is missing. It wouldn’t bug me if you just stayed the hell away from the rest of us and didn’t poison us with your arrogance and your vitriol and your idiocy.

    But you do. You and people like you stumble out of bed every morning, turn on your computer machines or paint up some signs and pack some weaponry, and think you can actually fucking relate to the rest of us. You think you can convince us of the visions you see in your head.

    It’s frightening to think about, Liam. It’s frightening to think that there are thousands, if not millions, of people just like you with no regard for facts and reality. People who think Obama’s gonna kill old people or people who think that the H1N1 virus has been fabricated by Barack’s evil scientists in a lab under the White House. Or people like Glenn Beck who actually work in Rockefeller Square but think the place was built by fucking commies.

    How crazy can you get? Apparently much, much crazier.

    If you’re not willing to abide by the general rules of common sense, fact, reality and humanity, I have no idea what can be done. I fear it’s only a matter of time before you or someone like you with enough actual belief in the bullshit you peddle does something dangerous, does something deadly.

    So, Liam, you tell me: what should we do with the likes of you when you become a real danger to our survival? Your poisonous theories are far, far more deadly to the human race than any “presidential vaccine” could ever be.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I love you, Jordan!

  • Mark

    While it is written that all speed typists must die, there is a later passage excepting Jordan.

  • STM

    zing … you weren’t messing about on here and pretending to be K-Dee??

  • Mark

    Reviewing this thread in the predawn discovering a treasure of potential visual imagery…

    MrsKas$money, in full dominatrix regalia, struts about in front of her terrified group of sixth graders

    “You vill listen, und…”

    strikes herself across her left thigh with her crop and smiles dreamily

    “…you vill discuss!”

  • STM

    Not the old teacher/riding crop/leather fantasy …

    You now have to join the British Conservative Party.

    That’s a normal Saturday night out, if you add a ball gag and ropes.

  • STM

    For blokes, that is

  • Mark

    (Surfer dude, I’ve been reading Pynchon again.)

  • Brian Coker

    Wow, there’s a lot of crazy in this article, and in the comments. If everyone would take a deep breath and look at how life has REALLY changed since Obama took office, are we all capable of seeing that free speech has actually increased in the last eight months? I don’t see anyone cracking down on protesters, people shouting down others in townhall meetings, even carrying weapons as a threat to Obama. In the previous administration people were arrested for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts to political rallies.

    Free speech goes both ways though – and I don’t know why anyone would turn down the chance to at least LISTEN to the PRESIDENT. Take Obama out of it, would you have had a problem with any previous president talking to kids, encouraging them to work hard, and then giving them homework to write about their opinion on what the president said?

    That is ALL this whole thing is about. Those who are opposed, is it because all they know about the world is through your lenses and FAUX news, and you’re deathly afraid that if they see another perspective they’ll suddenly shift their views? If that’s the case, I suggest leaving American society, where last I heard, people were able to speak to each other, and different points of view are actually embraced.

  • STM

    Liam: “Obama’s vaccine … Hundreds of people testing it have died.”

    Wrong.

    The US government is getting swine-flu vaccine from Commonwealth Serum Laboratories in Australia (CSL), which is already manufacturing it (it being the end of flu season in Oz, not the start which means they’ve had plenty of opportunity to develop it) just in time for the northern winter – and the start of the expected northern hemisphere flu pandemic. The first batch for the US is worth about $250m.

    To the best of my knowledge, no one in Australia has died in the testing of the vaccine.

    There have, however, been 150 swine-flu deaths in Australia – generally people with underlying illnesses or the very young and very old.

    Less, actually, than the usual number of flu deaths. It eventually became THE seasonal flu Down Under.

    I have had it (My wife took Tamiflu early and had no symptoms at all). It was a pretty mild illness. Not pleasant, but not anywhere near as bad as some other seasonal flus I’ve had in the past.

    As far as I know, none of those people were vaccinated.

    Of course, it could all be a cover-up, right?

  • Clavos

    and I don’t know why anyone would turn down the chance to at least LISTEN to the PRESIDENT.

    Haven’t we been doing so on a nearly daily basis since January?

    How can you NOT listen to him? He’s everywhere, like pollution.

  • STM

    Mark, you’re a very naughty boy.

    You will need punishing for that.

  • STM

    Clav: “He’s everywhere, like pollution”.

    Lol. Struggling with new America mate??

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    (PLEDGE ALLEGIENCE TO THE PRESIDENT). What you dont understand is this is pure in-doctrination straight from the hitler and communist propaganda sheet.

    Close. That’s the American brand of indoctrination; you can tell by its resemblance to one of the biggest indoctrination techniques used: please say “I pledge allegiance to the flag.” every day for the next 12 years.

    Why didn’t you right-wing people for freedom make school a place where children go in and critique the govt–to challenge ‘their representatives’? I don’t see any of that happening anywhere. All I see is a bunch of respect the flag like a good robot stuff.

    Obey authority is a message all your children (right, middle, left) get all they time. If instead, you taught them to think critically and question everything, they would be less subject to indoctrination by anyone. Then you wouldn’t be worried. (But that ‘anyone’ would include you. So, I can see where that won’t work for some.)

  • zingzing

    “How can you NOT listen to him? He’s everywhere, like pollution.”

    as opposed to bush, who was in texas, like crawford.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Over 350 comments and the monkeys are still throwing the coconuts at each other. All over a worthless little address by a worthless little man to a country that is going down the toilet, losing its value as it’s flushed down. Even Cindy, the poker player, doesn’t know when to walk away from the table….

    Pathetic.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    It may be the same color Ruvy, but some of those blobs aren’t coconuts…

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Zing, you have to remember that some of that is coming from the same idiots that think that the sun revolves around the earth and don’t know that Hawaii is a state.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Oh come on now Ruvy. If Obama’s worthless, then Netanyahu is the anti-Christ. Oops. Bad analogy. In every interview I have seen where parents are expressing outrage or “concern” about the speech there is one commonality. These people are white. They have Southern drawls. They are self-righteous conservative Christians. Bottom line? They are racist. What are we to do? Let them all move to the soon to be created Republic of Texas.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    If Obama’s worthless, then Netanyahu is the anti-Christ. Oops. Bad analogy.

    Not a bad analogy, a worthless analogy. If you want to imply that Netanyahu is evil, on the other hand, that simply requires a statement – one that would be accurate, though you need to go around Robinson’s barn to get there. And Obama isn’t entirely worthless. When “people” like Netanyu bow to trash like Obama, Obama proves himself as a tool for us here to determine the true offal (as opposed to official) value of the alleged leaders here.

    Have a good week, Silas.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    That shoulda been Netanyahu – not Netanyu.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Silas, I am sick of hearing that ALL that disagree with Obama, this current administration, and the liberal agenda is a racist. It is not only annoying but offensive to those of US (ME) that have a proven track record of NEVER being racist and have been ridiculed because of that stance. Plus I am only part white, mixed with Spanish, Greek, and Italian nationalities.

  • Clavos

    Let them all move to the soon to be created Republic of Texas.

    That should be re-create, Silas. Texas was an autonomous republic after it seceded from Mexico and before it was annexed by the Union. Texans still refer to their state as the Republic of Texas.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t they still fly six flags, Clavos, more than any other state”

    French, Spanish, Mexican, Confederate, American, Lone Star

  • Clavos

    Only at the park, Roger.

    Texans are very proud of that Lone Star flag because it dates back to the days of the Republic (it was the Republic’s second flag) and still symbolizes the Republic.

  • kate520

    If anyone needs to pay attention in school, it’s the children of uncritical thinkers like you who mindlessly repeat these ridiculous charges. There is no reason to believe what they say about the President’s address – unless, of course, you’ve already bought the full course crazy meal.

    Where was your concern when George HW Bush addressed school children? Or Arnold Schwartzenneger? Or Tom Ridge, as governor of Pennsylvania? Or Mitt eromney? Or Tim Pawlenty?

    Get a grip, woman. You are setting a terrible example for your kids.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Interesting, that was one of the questions on the UTube site featuring some great movies.

    Here is the site in case you don’t have it. You might enjoy it, especially
    the classics
    .

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Sorry, Christine, I believe a minimum of 50% of the venom spewed toward this President is based in racism. What really frosts my cupcakes is that this President has been more of a center to right President as opposed to Progressive and he still gets labeled. There will be no health care reform. There will be no reform to speak of at all. Next year we will be embroiled in a bitter fight for Congress where cowardly Democrats will do what they do best — jump ship. Barack Obama is quickly losing the support of Independents. On the GOP side, the far right will maintain its bought and paid for stranglehold on the Party. So the net result is an increase in back water ignorant politicians coming to power and the Obama Presidency being effectively neutralized. The only mechanism to real political reform is for a robust participation of the people like what occurred in the election which gave Barack Obama the Oval Office.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Getting back to the President’s address to school kids for a moment here — why is there such an outrage? Don’t we want our kids to understand what’s going on in the world? Don’t we want them to learn our history and understand the civic process? When I was in the 8th grade, we had to watch the news every night and that would be the centerpiece to our discussions the next day in civics class. Don’t they even do that any more? Oh, I forgot, we don’t really have nightly news programs any longer which inform rather than indoctrinate. We’re leaving this world in shittier condition than it was when we were born into it, folks. I hope future generations will forgive us.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Silas, OK thanks for for the racism clarification, I appreciate that. We can both agree that there are many that will dislike Obama just for the color of his skin and that IS pathetic.

    PS: Isn’t there a limit to the amount of comments allowed on an article?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps it isn’t quite that, Christine. It may be more a case that Obama’s skin color serves as a tacit, unarticulated excuse to find a great many programs emanating from the White House more objectionable than if he were “white.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger, way too deep for me at this hour. All I can say is on the matter is “ONE racist in this world is one too many”!

    Now I’m off to work on my other book. MY DIVA DIET: Let’s Train and then to really have some fun…The Klumps (Nutty Professor 2), funny movie to get my mind off so much seriousness and brutal attacks here on blogcritics!

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    What’s more pathetic is Ruvy’s desperate need for attention spurs him to comment on a thread he finds pathetic.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What won’t we do for love.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Isn’t there a limit to the amount of comments allowed on an article?

    Nope.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Jordan, as usual you make me laugh! LMAO

  • zingzing

    ruvy: ” When “people” like Netanyu bow to trash like Obama, Obama proves himself as a tool for us here to determine the true offal (as opposed to official) value of the alleged leaders here.”

    really? “offal” as in blood n guts? or entrails? or as in useless? or as in a delicacy?

    christine: “Plus I am only part white, mixed with Spanish, Greek, and Italian nationalities.”

    that may make you swarthy, but i’m not sure there’s a different racial category on most forms for that… although i usually wonder at the amount of forms that somehow “need” to know your race.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Christine, you’re supposed to be watching the Klumps!

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    What won’t we do for love.

    Have sex with Arch Conservative.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Ruvy will stoop so low as to be generally despised. What a guy!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    At comment #378.

    And the sage from Christian County in the middle of Bumfuck, USA, lifts his mind out of “intellectual” pursuits to speak again, bless him!

  • Lou

    20 yrs. ago we would have felt honored to have the President of the United States speak to our children. Why has this been such a big deal. If we do not trust our Presidents anymore, then why do we elect them to such an important job.

  • Dan

    All children get influenced by their parents, most take their parents view point and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I feel that it will do children a lot of good to be in a supervised setting with THEIR PEERS to learn and debate, to develop their own opinions that are not influenced by adults. Isn’t that after all the meaning of freedom, to be able to develop one’s own opinion? Should we really be forcing them into believing an opinion that was planted there by a parent or another adult, whose opinions were formed years ago? To have one form an opinion based on forced influence or lack of information sounds a lot like Communism. In order for anyone to form an educated opinion, one must hear all sides, several opinions. Then, and only then, can one make an educated decision. Let’s teach our children to think for themselves!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    20 yrs. ago we would have felt honored to have the President of the United States speak to our children.

    Good point. Obama’s two predecessors didn’t exactly do much to enhance the dignity of the presidency. But more than that, the timbre of political debate in the US has been on a downward spiral for a long time: and the media, particularly the rise of 24-hour cable news (and latterly blogs) and the demise of newspapers, has a lot to do with that.

    Even Nixon commanded more respect for the office than the last few guys.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #379,

    That’s the thing, Ruvy. I’m capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and wallow in the thought just like a pig in a pigsty.
    In fact, you couldn’t pay me a better compliment even if you tried.

    To cite from an ancient adage, “I am a man and nothing human to be alien to me.”

  • musiklady

    I think this is directed to Pinky or Christine….
    “Why should my kids listen to HIM????”
    Probably because it will be easier than listening to “W” who couldn’t construct a complete sentence that made any sense.
    I AM a teacher and I have students in my school that NEED an adult black male with power and position to tell them that education is important. They have NO OTHER MALE ROLE MODEL in their lives except…gee….maybe Michael Jackson…hmmmmmmm

  • Clavos

    I AM a teacher and I have students in my school that NEED…

    Teach, you have students in your school WHO need…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Who’s Pinky?

  • proud american

    ZingZing..you are a socialist Canadian therefore you have no idea what a free country is like. So let me inform you. Our Constitution gives us the right to free speech. Obama has appointed 38 Czar’s and most of them are radicals and some even say they are Communists. This is not the type of people that should be advising our President, and Obama was caught on this because one resigned today. Keep yourself in your country and keep your comments out of ours. If your country is so great, how come so many of your rich citizens use our healthcare system, because they can get in without waiting 6 months. We dont care to hear Canadian comments about our countryl.

  • zingzing

    “ZingZing..you are a socialist Canadian therefore you have no idea what a free country is like.”

    i’m american. born in the south, living in nyc.

    “So let me inform you.”

    no thanks.

    “Keep yourself in your country and keep your comments out of ours.”

    this is kinda useless now, isn’t it? besides, even if i was canadian, i’d still have every right to comment, and you would have to respect my freedom of speech.

    “If your country is so great, how come so many of your rich citizens use our healthcare system, because they can get in without waiting 6 months.”

    and how come we americans buy so many drugs from the canadians because our healthcare system prices them out of reach? and i think you overestimate the amount of canadians coming here for treatment, or don’t know of the existence of the border and joint agreements.

    “We dont care to hear Canadian comments about our countryl.”

    i, for one, welcome input wherever it may come from, and even if i don’t agree with it, i agree with the first amendment, so…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, we have the Obnoxious American (where has he been hiding?), the Ugly American, and now, in the benefit of closure, the Proud American.

    Will the Real American please stand up? John Doe, where are you when you’re needed the most?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I’ve never come across anyone calling him or herself the Humble American or the Compassionate American or the Kind American.

    Why is that?

  • zingzing

    and why is that we like to bring up the first amendment when telling people to shut up so often?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I dunno. Also, what freedoms do you have as an American that I’m lacking as a Canadian?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For that, Jordan, they’d have to eat their humble pie.

    But we do have the Compassionate Conservative. Presumably, Michael Savage had coined that one.

  • zingzing

    “Also, what freedoms do you have as an American that I’m lacking as a Canadian?”

    not sure. how about you list off all your freedoms and i’ll list off mine and we’ll see.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Okaaay,

    1. Pancake freedom
    2. Freedom of speech, religion, all that other junk
    3. I forget the rest

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It has to do with not being a traditional society, and our national identity is in dispute. Consequently, some Americans have very definite ideas as to who they are and what kind of people we ought to be. And according to that program, socialists such as yourself, zing, should have a right to speak.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    what freedoms do you have as an American that I’m lacking as a Canadian?

    Well, as far as I can recall they include rootin’, tootin’, shootin’ and a bunch of other ootin’s.

    There’s also the freedom to send a uniquely-skilled military force to global trouble spots: a force which, rather than engage in conventional methods of warfare such as shooting guns and dropping bombs, prefers to locate the enemy and apply heavy blows to its buttocks with their boots.

    Other than that, I don’t really know.

    But I’m sure that what I’ve listed is more than sufficient to remind you of how oppressed and miserable you are up there in Canada.

    [This has been a public disservice announcement.]

  • Franco

    391 – Jordan Richardson

    I’ve never come across anyone calling him or herself the Humble American or the Compassionate American or the Kind American.

    Why is that?

    Because those who are truly Humble, Compassionate, and Kind, don’t need to toot there own horns. Maybe you heard of them, the silent majority.

  • Franco

    393 – Jordan Richardson

    what freedoms do you have as an American that I’m lacking as a Canadian?

    The apparent fact that you admit to not knowing is telling of a lack of respect for freedom.

    While in practice the U.S. and Canada may be similar in terms of liberty, they are not identical in terms of two freedoms I can think of off the top. (1) freedom of speech, and (2) economic freedom.

    US vs Canada: Freedom of Speech

    It would be very difficult, if not impossible, for Canadian-style hate speech laws to pass constitutional muster in the United States. And, since freedom of speech is an extremely important liberty, this suggests that Canada may be less free than the United States, at least in terms of a freedom that matters the most.

    US vs Canada: Economic Freedom

    Why Is Measuring Economic Freedom Important? The measure of economic freedom is important since it functions as an indicator of the economic growth potential in a country or region. As the report notes, “not only is economic freedom important for the level of prosperity, growth in economic freedom spurs economic growth.” When you consider that the barriers and restrictions placed upon the economic freedom of individuals, is it really any wonder that, as the report again notes, “those provinces and states that have low levels of economic freedom continue to leave their citizens poorer than they need or should be.”

    Report concludes Canada has less econmic freedom the then the US

    At any rate, marking a significant difference between the two countries becomes less apparent in a global context. But that wasn’t your question.

  • zingzing

    roger: “And according to that program, socialists such as yourself, zing, should have a right to speak.”

    i ain’t no fuckin socialist. i just believe that there are certain programs within the united states that could benefit from a more socialist approach. generally, however, i believe that capitalism works except when it doesn’t. and it’s in those areas where it doesn’t work that we need to inject a little socialism. and if socialism doesn’t work, then i say we just legalize marijuana and prostitution and reap the curious rewards of taxing getting fucked up and fucked.

    seriously, if we want to get out of this depression, just open up the fucking market. and the getting fucked up market. we’d be rolling in cash, high on dope, in the hay.

  • zingzing

    that last sentence works except that “rolling” refers to ecstasy (as in, “rolling on e”), and i don’t want ecstasy to be legal because I WOULD DIE.

  • Franco

    339 – Jordan Richardson

    In this post Jordan not only shows his simple lack of understanding about the lessor freedoms in Canada vs. US as pointed out in post #400, but he ironically he actually displays his support for this more freedom restrictness in this post in attacking Liam’s freedom of speech, regardless of its disagreable content.

    I wouldn’t mind so much if you were just tucked in your own little world, Liam. It wouldn’t bother me if you just sat around your trailer with meatball stains on your fucking shirt and a cigarette tucked into that little spot you’ve got where a tooth is missing. It wouldn’t bug me if you just stayed the hell away from the rest of us and didn’t poison us with your arrogance and your vitriol and your idiocy.

    Ya Liam, if you could just be denied your right to free speech, I would be a happy liberal.

    If you’re not willing to abide by the general rules of common sense, fact, reality and humanity, I have no idea what can be done.

    Ah sure you do Jordan, you just don’t have the balls to say it, even as bad as you want to!

    I fear it’s only a matter of time before you or someone like you with enough actual belief in the bullshit you peddle does something dangerous, does something deadly.

    You mean like trying to find a way to put action into silencing someone you can not stand to listen to?

  • STM

    Proud American writes: “ZingZing..you are a socialist Canadian therefore you have no idea what a free country is like”.

    Yobbo Australian writes: “Lol”.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, as you only have one thing to say and say it repeatedly, rather like Ruvy in fact only slightly less messianic, I suppose we should forgive your wilful distortion of what Jordan actually said.

    If you believe in unrestricted freedom of speech, give me your address and I’ll come round with some friends and we’ll exercise our right of freedom of speech right outside your house.

  • zingzing

    they guy has obviously never been to canada. vancouver is where i’ve visited the most, and i must say that all the 19-year-old hot-ass japanese chicks drunk and stoned certainly seemed very free to accompany me back to my hotel room for a night of…

    look, we’ll just say i certainly felt liberty up and down while in canada.

  • zingzing

    406 was to 404 as 2 is to 1… shoulda followed.

  • STM

    Doc: “There’s also the freedom to send a uniquely-skilled military force …”

    Lol.

    But it’s true. Among the unique skills of the US military is the freedom (perhaps the innate ability) to use five or more words when a couple would do.

    Thus: The enemy now becomes “a target-rich ennvironment”.

    And to hide or duck one’s head because some bastard’s shootin’ at it (or even just to sit down) becomes “to lower your visual profile”.

    And that hoary old chestnut: instead of being sorry for accidentally killing civilians, we get “We deeply regrat that our forces were unable to avoid collateral damage.”

    It’s a function of the US approach. It’s simply what happens when you apply the big-business approach to war. You also get the corporate terminology.

    It’ll only be a matter of time until an attack becomes “At this time, going forward, our assets are in a unique position to deal the target-rich environment a classic blow but at the same time, in keeping with our philosophy, we will aim to keep any collateral damage to a minimum”.

  • STM

    BTW, Jordan, I feel really sorry for you seeing as how you’re living in such an un-free country, under the Queen an’ all that.

    Perhaps you should move down here, where even free-balling is completely acceptable in summer, or summer and winter in Queensland.

  • STM

    Zing. Lol. This whole thread has gone completely off the wall. I’m lovin’ it.

    The woodwork is cracking and they’re all coming out. Franco’s a classic too when he gets going. He’s read on the internet somewhere that the US is the only free country, so the rest of us are obviously totally rooted.

  • zingzing

    yeah, i’ve really loved this thread. so much fun to be had. the ridiculousness of conservatives is shining through. they’re a total laugh riot when they get going.

    and i just did laundry and didn’t find a single pair of underwear. summer’s so grand. free-ballin’ it out in brooklyn. time to change the jeans.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Franco, it’s rather remarkable how unaware you are of your poor reading comprehension. Jordan didn’t ask for the government to restrict Liam’s speech, although they should considering how badly he assaulted it, and I would recommend you get probation for your mangled “his support for this more freedom restrictness in this post in attacking Liam’s freedom of speech”.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    And now the original reason I came back, a fun quote:

    John Harwood: I’ve been watching politics for a long time and this is, this one is really over the top. What it shows you is there are a lot of cynical people who try to fan controversy and let’s face it, in a country of three hundred million people there are a lot of stupid people too, because if you believe that’s it’s somehow unhealthy for kids for the President to say work hard and stay in school, you’re stupid.

  • STM

    Doc, up above there’s a URL (Inkao) that connects to a cyrillic Russian language site. Looks like a suck in (the post is bizarre too) and a bit dodgy to me. What’s the bet if you click on anything in it, all your personal info and computer movements go straight to a nice bunch of folks in a former soviet republic.

  • marere

    The most frightening thing to me as a retired teacher is that these demagogic extremists have so many in America that will follow them like sheep. Even Rush and Glenn are probably amazed that so many absorb their brainwashing and walk in lockstep, doing exactly what they direct.

    The “activity suggestions” sent out merely ask children to think about how they might become good citizens and successful students. Good teachers would be creating their own extentions of the event anyway. Wouldn’t it be great to think that students all across our country, at noon on Tuesday would be connected in thinking about how to respect one another more, participate in positive ways in their school or community and realize that they can achieve anything if they are willing to put forth theeir best effort toward their goals.
    How could parents rob their children ofthis opportunity?

  • Clavos

    all your personal info and computer movements go straight to a nice bunch of folks in a former soviet republic.

    Well, it’s a free country.

    And hey, former Soviet republics (some of them) are booming, I’m doing a lot of business in Slovenia and Croatia these days.

    [ain’t it?]

  • Mark

    This whole thread has gone completely off the wall. I’m lovin’ it.

    Yup. It appears that mental diarrhea is one of the results of Lakatos intolerance.

  • STM

    Hey Franco, I can think of one freedom Jordan has that you don’t.

    The freedom afforded by Canada’s hate-speech laws that stops idiots ruining your life by spreading vile bullsh.t based on gender, race, age, sexuality, political persuasion, etc.

    You guys have got it all arse about.

  • Oemissions

    More fear mongering.
    We need our children to be interested in the affairs of our nation .I am happy to have my children able to have the President greet them on their return to school.
    I believe that as a President, and father of 2 school children, he has the wisdom not to throw any special Vote for Me messages or indoctrination at our children.

  • STM

    Mark, I like the way the loonet righters just come in out of the woodwork, then disappear after one or two comments.

    It’s a worry.

    We should all remember that this is about a president addressing the nation’s schoolkids.

    As much as Christine would like to suggest there’s no racism involved in this … she’s be wrong.

    As Rosey says, some of these folks just don’t want that uppity fella in the white house telling their kids what to do.

    Sorry for giving you a gobful the other night, BTW. Rog was driving me bananas.

  • STM

    Clav: how do you get the boats over there??

    Not all of ’em are ocean-goers are they?

  • STM

    Zing: “time to change the jeans.”

    Hope they’re baggies, for all our sakes.

  • Mark

    No problem, Surfer dude. I hold you in the highest regard even if you are a liberal propagandist for the Capitalist class.

    xxoo

    agreed about the racism thing

  • STM

    Clav: “[ain’t it?]”

    Well, Canada’s not free. Franco’s on the freedom ride again and is certain that his brand of freedom is superior.

    They’re all in chains up there. Stuck in a time warp, they are.

    The poor buggers can’t get out from under The Queen.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    418 – Mark
    Sep 07, 2009 at 6:20 am
    This whole thread has gone completely off the wall. I’m lovin’ it.

    Yup. It appears that mental diarrhea is one of the results of Lakatos intolerance.

    Wow, Mark, thanks for being a jerk and showing your intolerance. If you read the entire article, you would know that I am not intolerant of the speech, just felt that the “lessons plans” were fishy and creepy!

  • STM

    Mark: “a liberal propagandist for the Capitalist class”

    Nah, I’m not a liberal. Too namby-pamby for my liking. I way prefer beer socialism and football with body contact to chardonnay pseudo-socialism, art-gallery openings and civil liberties unions.

    Conservatives make the best right-wingers of the Left. The only way to do this stuff is to get your hands dirty.

    Working your tits off, in other words.

  • Mark

    (hmmm…Christine, before you get all defensive and tweaky on me, please note that my 418 refers to the commentors, not you. thanks)

  • Clavos

    Clav: how do you get the boats over there??

    Not all of ’em are ocean-goers are they?

    No, hell no. Practically none are.

    There are a lot of boats over there, especially in the Med and along the Dalmatian coast, but it’s very easy to ship boats as deck cargo on freighters, and there’s even a Dutch company, Dockwise Yacht Transport, which has built specialized ships dedicated to carrying yachts around the world.

    Their ships flood, the yachts move aboard under their own power to pre-set cradles. Then, divers make final adjustments to the cradles, and the ship closes the doors and pumps out the water. Once dry, welders spot weld the cradles to the ship’s deck, the yachts are tied down, and off they go — all over the world, including SE Asia and the South Pacific. Regular ports in the S. Pacific include Sydney, Brisbane, Cairns, Auckland, Fiji and Papeete.

  • Mark

    …on second thought, and now that you brought it up, perhaps if you were more tolerant of your political opposition you wouldn’t have provided this imbalanced piece of fear mongering as a platform for nuttiness.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    427 – Mark
    Sorry then. My Bad…just woke up and can’t keep up with all the comments on here. Please forgive me!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Mark, do I need to take my apology back now?

  • Mark

    (Christine, rule of thumb — never apologize to me)

    What I’d like to see from the ‘right’ are positive suggestions – what would you want the Pres (who is Lenin, btw) to say to students? Republican or Democrat you guys are all on the same side.

    I, on the other hand, as a pinko commie anarchist, find the actions of both ‘sides’ reprehensible.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Mark, I always apologize when I think I am wrong.

    However, as I stated a 100 times, it’s not the speech I was concerned about, it was the lesson plans, which were fishy and seem to be mostly about Pres. Obama mixed in with education (of which the DOE has changed). It’s also a collective attitude I personally have about this administration and their need to “control” everything.

  • Mark

    Tautological observation: Representative democracy tends towards cults of personality.

    I find Obama’s cult creepy in the extreme, but this is nothing new…every Pres brings his ‘heartwarming’ story.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Mark, well stated!

  • Mark

    Surfer dude, the Capitalist class loves modern Socialism.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    435

    Mark,

    I agree. At the last article, on the Obama poster/video? (something Dave wrote), I thought I saw a larger qualitative difference between mass cultism and cults that don’t have the benefit of appearing normal. I don’t think I see much difference now.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Franco,

    My religion requires human sacrifice. If I can talk a volunteer into it, do I have your approval?

    If not, how would you handle it?

  • Mark

    Cindy, looking for a guru is an insidious ancient tradition.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan @ #412: Well spotted, comrade. Not sure what that site is, but I’ve deleted the comment just to be on the safe side. :-)

  • ClarityOfMind

    Hi all

    I can see both sides of this debate and I think the righters are concerned with the wrongful indoctrination to their kids. Of course no parents want their children to agree with something the parents are against! This would cause family dissention and at the end families would suffer and be destroyed. Sharing the same values and principles is important to unite and make a family strong. You see, it seems like there is a strong tendency of President Obama to favor issues that threaten the fundamental values of family (homosexuals, same-sex marriages, abortion, etc). That is a direct threat to parents who care for their families and family values. How can they allow a wolf dressed in sheep skin getting close to their children? I think I understand where they are coming from. You will see this event based on your own experiences, values and circumstances. Are you married? Do you have children? Do you put your children in risk and do you let them play with fire? Do you let your little children play with people that is threatening or that is against your most precious values? That would be a contradiction of what the definition of responsible parenthood is.

  • zingzing

    clarityofmind, is the clarity of your mind a result of the fact that you got it handed to you by the tv?

  • ClarityOfMind

    Hi ZingZing

    I don’t really understand your question. Could you elaborate further? thanks!

  • zingzing

    your post up there is pretty much a bunch of rightwing drivel that has no connection with reality. if you really think your kids are going to be just like you, you’re in for a rude awakening. unless you’ve indoctrinated them into thinking only the thoughts you’d have them think. “Sharing the same values and principles is important to unite and make a family strong.” now replace “family” with “nation” and you’ll see what i mean.

    “Of course no parents want their children to agree with something the parents are against! This would cause family dissention and at the end families would suffer and be destroyed.”

    are you serious? plenty of children disagree with their parents on a variety of issues, and families continue just fine. that’s what happens when you have the freedom to make up your own mind.

    as for that crap about homosexuals, they never did one thing to hurt you, so i don’t know why you have something against them. they don’t make your family unit any less strong, and if there is one in your family, you’ve caused them far more pain than they could ever cause you.

    but you know, why don’t you just go to whitehouse.gov and look at the text of the speech for yourself. you know what it’s about? here’s a hint: education and responsibility. SCARY STUFF, right?

  • ClarityOfMind

    Hi ZingZang

    I didn’t understand your previous question regarding TV but I just wanted to add that I honestly don’t watch TV these days. I prefer to read (I usually read reliable sources from more than one side)

    No families are just fine where there is dissention at the root of their relationships. It is here that society’s pivotal problems have their root in. It’s not perception, just the facts.

    They look normal on the surface but their foundation is about to fall, maybe not on their generation, but on the next. We can dsagree on a variety of issues, I agree with that, but not on the fundamental values that allowed me to arrive at my current destination, at the least.

    Please do not make assumptions to keep the blog objective and clarity in the messages. I don’t have anything against homosexuals but I think many traditional families belive that they are not well suited to play appropiate mom/dad roles necessary to preserve our civilization as we know it.

    Regarding Education and Responsibility. Bravo! It can be scary but vaccines are also scary and save lives. I think this is the right solution to end with problems that have been infesting our society for centuries. Many Government resolutions are trying to address the problems resulting of the lack of education instead of attacking the problem from its root. But this solution is not complete by itself. We must define it first (what is Education? what is responsibility? What Education is needed? and what Education is not needed?) there are many answers to this question and very few citizens well educated and well intentioned able to lift their hand to voice their concerns. But I think this topic can take us to a very different direction other than what was intended on this blog.

    I will need to leave very soon but I will be glad to update the blog later today or tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Cheers.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I always knew you were a down-to-earth guy, STM, which is why one can’t get mad of you for long. But liberal or not, you are a propagandist – but not for the capitalist class, as Mark said, but for the Anglo-Saxon way. And indirectly, you therefore endorse the system.

    Not that I blame you, because we’re all bound by our traditions, if only to hold on to a sense of personal identity. In short, you could do much worse. (Like being a Pole, or a Frenchie?)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Franco’s comment (#398) is a real gem and should be engraved”

    “Because those who are truly Humble, Compassionate, and Kind, don’t need to toot there own horns. Maybe you heard of them, the silent majority.”

    That’s the first time I’ve ever heard of “the silent majority” portrayed in such superlative terms. Even Nixon (or Agnew, more likely, who had coined the phrase) wouldn’t dare. It only shows the extent of the conservative delusion.

    If anything, the meaning had to do with a kind of militancy heretofore unexpressed, a militancy which, given proper conditions, could become fully articulated and a decisive factor in American politics. The Christian Right is one of the offshoots of “the Silent Majority” idea, perhaps the incarnation of it.

    So to equate this mindset with kindness and compassion is not only delusional but also quite a feat in re-writing history.

    Good job, Franco. You deserve everybody’s praise for creative, innovative thinking.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You say:

    “Representative democracy tends towards cults of personality.”

    Interesting observation.

  • nocturne6

    I don’t remember many presidential speeches in school in the 60’s & 70’s but I certainly remember them coming through and giving us vaccinations (without permission slips) I remember the drills during the A-bomb scares that they later called “tornado” drills and I remember having to discuss presidential speeches and policies and express opionions about them in upper grades. Then everyone went home and their parents impressed their own opinions to “undo” whatever they didn’t approve of. I guess some people doubt the power of their own teachings and influence on their children. the little buggers might actual learn to hear someone besides mommy’s propganda? wow

  • Sherry

    First let me say my child will not be watching the presidental speach and the reason being is not that I am scared of what he might say. I believe when my child is old enough to understand the issues at hand they will of their on individual beliefs decide which political party they would like to support. I don’t discuss politics with my child because of that reason she is a child. When she gets old enough to know about political issues then she can choose and discuss whatever she chooses. Our children have enough to deal with being children why don’t we just let them be kids!! Go to school learn to read and count!! The president addressing High School students is probably a good idea the are being taught economics, but my grade school children could care less about anything he has to say!! I mean they are kids!! It means more to them for me and my husband to tell them to do good in school than if a man (The President) they have never meet to tell them to do good!

  • zingzing

    sherry, you can go read for yourself what he wants to say. there’s no politics. all you’re going to do is make yourself look paranoid and silly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Touchy issue, zing. I see Sherry’s point. Do we want to politicize our kids before their time, like the Nazis?

  • Franco

    409 – STM

    Franco’s read on the internet somewhere that the US is the only free country.

    STM, kindly show us where I used such words.

  • Franco

    411 – El Bicho

    Franco, it’s rather remarkable how unaware you are of your poor reading comprehension. Jordan didn’t ask for the government to restrict Liam’s speech.

    I never said Jordan asked the government to restrict Liam’s speech. You are the only one to bring that idea up. My point is Jordan clearly states that if Liam was to be kept quite, Jordan would be a happy liberal.

    The fact the Jordan says “I have no idea what can be done” is bull shit, he just dose not have the balls to say it. Which is what you have said.

    My reading comprehension is just find mate. Yours I’m not so sure about.

    I would recommend you get probation for your mangled “his support for this more freedom restrictness in this post in attacking Liam’s freedom of speech”.

    Yes, I did mangle that one pretty badly and thank you for bringing it to my attention.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Do we want to politicize our kids before their time, like the Nazis?

    Um, Roger? Isn’t that precisely what the Ultra Right is doing? I mean, Liberty University is neither a place for liberty or an institute of higher learning. It’s a right wing freak factory.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, Silas, but I’m talking about toddlers. Let them enjoy their childhood for as long as they can before entering the ugly unreality of adulthood.

  • Jordan Richardson

    My point is Jordan clearly states that if Liam was to be kept quite, Jordan would be a happy liberal.

    Kept quite what?

    Actually, my point is simple and my point is this:

    When somebody’s point of view is couched in distortion, lack of fact and deliberate twisting of reality to the point that it becomes outright harmful to our safety and wellbeing as a society, what do we do about it?

    What can be done about it? I don’t know. What should we do about it? I don’t know.

    I, in no way, endorsed shutting Liam up. In fact, I posed the question to Liam. I do not endorse any stripping of freedom of speech, no matter how ridiculous, and have never endorsed such a grotesque philosophy. What I do endorse, however, is accountability to what we say, what we think and what we believe.

    The fact the Jordan says “I have no idea what can be done” is bull shit, he just dose not have the balls to say it.

    Nonsense. It’s truth. Since when have I lacked the “balls” to say anything around here?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Incidentally, my point of view would be the same were I a “happy liberal” or a “cynical conservative.”

  • http://teenpolitics-liberty.blogspot.com/ Liberty

    I really don’t understand what all the ruckus is about. He’s the President. He’s inspiring our kids. If you’re sending your kids to a government-run school, they’re already a captive audience for whatever the teachers decide to pump into them.

    There is nothing in the speech that indicates that the President will be attempting to ‘push his agenda’ or anything of the sort- it is a speech trying to push kids to succeed.

    ~A concerned Libertarian, combating misinformation. 😉

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I never said Jordan asked the government to restrict Liam’s speech.”

    Then who else could do it? Or are you unaware of what you are referring to?

    “My reading comprehension is just find mate.”

    Considering your poorly reasoned and poorly written comments here and elsewhere, I don’t know that you are in the position to determine that.

  • rob

    Wow, I really can’t believe that Americans are being so ignorant and narrow-minded over our president’s desire to inspire our children. He will be guilty of asking them to stay in school, do there best, and if they work hard enough then telling them that there dreams are all possible. It’s a presidents job to lead and the best leaders inspire. His address is not without precedent as both George H. and George W. Bush addressed our children without such an uproar.
    Whether you are on the right or the left should not matter, as this address is not about policy it is solely done to inspire our children. Shouldn’t we expect our President be a positive role model? I fear that the objections may stem from outright racism, as this level of uproar over a something that at worst would fail to inspire but not harm our children and at best inspire our kids as to the greatness of America, is ridiculous.
    Ronald Regan weather you liked him or not was inspirational and after the Iran Hostage debacle his positive leadership and inspirational speeches was something this nation desperately needed. We elected Barack Obama as our president. As a country we need to come together and not fight over nonsense. When I read the vitriolic hatred behind the arguments stating that it’s the parent’s job to inspire (and by the way that does not always happen) I then ask, would you object if it were George Washington or Abraham Lincoln giving the speech.
    Maybe it is time we all look in the mirror and decide its time we stopped listening to the talking heads on the radio and started to think for ourselves. I for one would rather have my son look up to the president as a role model than an actor or athlete.

  • zingzing

    i really hope that this is the moment where the right wingers not so easily led by the nose figure out that their leaders and the right wing media have been grossly over-hyping the evils of the obama administration from the beginning.

    no, he’s not trying to indoctrinate your children (which is it, into socialism or into facsism?), he’s not a communist, he’s not going to kill your grandma, he isn’t trying to bankrupt america, he isn’t trying to destroy america, he’s not from kenya, he’s not from indonesia, he not islamic, he’s not trying to take your guns away (but please don’t bring them to public rallies anymore…), blah, blah, blah.

    my god, the list of contrived grievances looks totally fucking ridiculous when you line them up like that. and i’m sure i’ve forgotten a few choice gems.*

    god knows it’s been hilarious, but even the right wing must admit its fairly stupid.

    *if you can think of any more, throw them up in a gutter somewhere.

  • STM

    EB: If I’m not mistaken (and apologies if I am, Franco), but I think there was a discussion on a thread here a while back that mentioned Franco was dyslexic.

    That aside … Franco: Your politics are still a grab-bag of complete right-wing ratbaggery.

    If I see one more piece of bollocks about my freedom vs your freedom (and until you’ve lived in a place like Australia or Canada I don’t think you’re in a position to comment anyhow), I’m almost certain I’ll throw up.

  • Elvira Black

    Unfortunately, too many parents refuse to participate in their kids’ education, so it’s very sad that some of them are trying to stymie something that anyone with a brain and an education would see as a positive thing. The President is a role model (as in I’d like to grow up to be President.) In any case, they apparently adjusted the proposed curricular agenda, but I doubt that that makes any difference.

  • Kareama Smart

    As a high school student in Kansas City, Mo
    I think his address about eduction is a good idea. I believe that because, all he wants to do is encourage us a kids its more to being successful. You don’t have top be a rapper, a star in any sports. But education comes first. I think people are being racist because, they can’t accept the fact we have an african american president. Now when Bush father address this matter it wasn’t a problem. But when a African American address the matter it becomes a problem. I believe he the president and should be able to speak on what he know is right to change the education program. So if Bush can speak out on this sitution so should our former Presdient Barack Obama.

  • Franco

    446 – roger nowosielski

    Franco’s comment (#398) is a real gem and should be engraved”

    “Because those who are truly Humble, Compassionate, and Kind, don’t need to toot there own horns. Maybe you heard of them, the silent majority.”

    That’s the first time I’ve ever heard of “the silent majority” portrayed in such superlative terms. Even Nixon (or Agnew, more likely, who had coined the phrase) wouldn’t dare. It only shows the extent of the conservative delusion.

    If anything, the meaning had to do with a kind of militancy heretofore unexpressed, a militancy which, given proper conditions, could become fully articulated and a decisive factor in American politics. The Christian Right is one of the offshoots of “the Silent Majority” idea, perhaps the incarnation of it.

    So to equate this mindset with kindness and compassion is not only delusional but also quite a feat in re-writing history.

    Rodger, the silent majority is an unspecified large majority of people in a country or group who for the most part do not activate their opinions publicly. The term was popularized (though not first used) by Nixon as you pointed out.

    The Silent Majority was mostly people who didn’t have the time, or chose not to take the time to take an active part in politics other than to vote. They did, in some cases, support the conservative policies of many politicians. Others were not particularly conservative politically, but resented what they saw as disrespect for American institutions.

    Since Nixon, many conservatives have pointed to the silent majority as a force still ignored by the media, and has been used to explain a number of Republican victories in areas where no chance was given to conservative politicians by the media

    Because I believe the majority of Americans are Humble with is synonymous with unpretentious, Compassionate which is synonymous with good-natured, and Kind which is synonymous with warm-hearted, by the very definition of these character trates, they would not have to, nor would it be in their nature to toot their own horns about it, and so they are silent about it.

    These (2) two words are not owned by anyone, not Nixon or you, and I have chosen to use them for some of the best Americans we have because these words fit them to a “T”. These are men and women who toil and move mountains of responsibility and yet are rarely if ever in the spotlight for it, and do not seek it. These are women who’s hands 24/7 rock the cradles that shake the world. These are people who are willing to cary this unclamorius resposponsablty and sacrifice for others because they can see it as something bigger then themselves. It is humbling to be in their presents. The very foundation of American principles on freedoms gave birth to their majority and maintains it to this day.

    The fact the Jordan even asks why he has never come across anyone calling him or herself the Humble American or the Compassionate American or the Kind American” is not only his failed attempt at a put down of Americans, it’s a put down on himself.

    Dose he not know any Americans who are all those things without them having to say so? And if he does, wouldn’t their patting themselves on the back by calling themselves these things be hypocritical in displaying such a lack of humility and superfluous?

    In other words, talk is cheep. So the question is, do not the actions of truly humble, compassionate, and kind Americans speak louder for Jordan then words and labels? Dose he really need them to say so?

    What’s in the spotlight where praise is handed out in what we see in most news, movies, TV, music, sports, activism, politics in America today is anything but a show of Humility, Compassion or Kindness. Yet they all keep trying to tell us they are.

    Rodger, you can try and play all the games you want in trying to confine my words in a box in which you think you can control. As if that wasn’t bad enough, you never once even tipped your hat to the unsung heros of which I speak. You choose instead to display all the anti-American bile you can to sell her, and her best down the river which is evidenced in your BC posts which are riveted with it.

    But regardless, non of this changes the humble, compassionate and kind American majority which is silent about there best because they are too busy putting it to work. I wouldn’t trade 10,000 Rogers for just one of them, even though they are in the majority.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The fact the Jordan even asks why he has never come across anyone calling him or herself the Humble American or the Compassionate American or the Kind American” is not only his failed attempt at a put down of Americans, it’s a put down on himself.

    More of an observation, actually, of how some Americans portray themselves. Obnoxious, Angry, etc. tend to be the variations of self-description and I was pondering this. It wasn’t a putdown of Americans at all, as my wife is an American and thus one entire side of my family is American. Their humility is apparent.

    wouldn’t their patting themselves on the back by calling themselves these things be hypocritical in displaying such a lack of humility and superfluous?

    It absolutely would be, but my comments were made in context of the Americans I have encountered in one particular avenue alone. This being, of course, that of largely anonymous discussion boards. In context, I was saying that while I have had experiences with Americans calling themselves, proudly, Obnoxious, Arrogant, Ugly and so forth, I have not found anyone labeling themselves Loving, Compassionate, and so forth. You may choose to place Humble in that list and focus on it, Franco, but that was hardly the entirety of what I was saying. Nor did I think what I was saying to be overly earth-shattering.

    Dose he really need them to say so?

    Again, absolutely not. It was merely an observation.

  • Franco

    462 – STM

    EB: If I’m not mistaken (and apologies if I am, Franco), but I think there was a discussion on a thread here a while back that mentioned Franco was dyslexic.

    STM, you’re not mistaken. I grew up dyslexic and there is no need for you to apologize.

    I had a terrible time leaning to spell and thus to read, and it took years of special reading studies all through elementary school. Today I read all the time and do it quickly with strong comprehension, however my spelling still suffers and I know it shows.

    I usually recheck my posts three times before posting as I find many needed corrections. But even that triple checking is not a fix-all as you and others can see. I am not insulted by comments I get about by spelling as I know that I do my best and that is good enough for me.

    That aside … Franco: Your politics are still a grab-bag of complete right-wing ratbaggery.

    Well that would be interesting to hear you explain seeing that I am a libertarian.
    Maybe it’s my support for free market, lower taxes, and less government intrusion into our lives. But if you’re not into explaining your comment, then I guess you can just call it libertarian ratbaggery

    If I see one more piece of bollocks about my freedom vs your freedom (and until you’ve lived in a place like Australia or Canada I don’t think you’re in a position to comment anyhow), I’m almost certain I’ll throw up.

    With respect to Canada vs US freedoms in my comment post 399, I was in responding to that very question that had been asked and I addressed it accordingly. It concerned speech freedom and economic freedom. I outlined my response for clarity and provided a supporting data link. If you dispute this date lets hear it.

    Additionally it should be noted that at the end of that post I made it clear that the differences between Canada and the US are insignificant within the global context to clarify that they are not that different. You seem to be the one making the mountain out of the molehill, not me.

    As far as Australia is concerned, I have not commented at all on what differences there may or may not be so youll havd to reel that false assertion in.

    As far as my opinion on American freedoms. There has never been any other founding documents written by mam for mam that contained more freedom for man then those documents that were drafted by those few founding fathers. It was a true revolution back then and it remains the same revolution today!

    Aside from the changes to slavery faught for in a civle war, Indian displament and dimise, and on going taffies, three evils inherited from the old world which was a shame on us, the Constitution and Bill of Rights were unequaled in there time, and they are unequalled to this day.

    Sadly and quite frankly I don’t think the founding fathers would even recognize the US today if they could see it. Surly if they could, their town hall meetings would be under the surveillance of Home Land Securely to say the least.

  • STM

    Franco, then here’s something of interest.

    The framers of our constitution in Australia purposely decided to leave out an American Bill of Rights after studying it, holding that all those rights existed anyway under common law, which forms part of the constitution.

    A couple of things were guaranteed: the right to a jury trial (which existed in the states anyway) if prosecuted by the federal government, and the right of a citizen to expected fair and just compensation from the government if it appropriated land for government purposes (let’s say airbases, naval yards, etc).

    The High Court continues to rule on issues like free speech, insisting that it is implied in the constitution and therefore exists – but with the same caveats as those that exist in the US which don’t make it absolute … things like laws on defamation and libel.

    There is now a debate underway on whether we need a Bill of Rights.

    It’s a touchy issue with oppising ideas but the prevailing viewpoint right now seems to be that we don’t need or want a Bill of Rights. We already have them. In some countries, bills of rights have actually served to remove some freedoms. Even the issue of guns in this country is a moot point: you can still own them, but the majority of Australians wanted more controls on them and got them.

    I don’t hold with the right-wing American view of democracy I’ve heard sometimes: that it’s two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.

    I prefer the other view that I see as the US experience: two sheep and a wolf, with the wolf arguing he’s got as much right to choose what’s for dinner as the sheep and that those with the sharpest teeth always win.

    Americans might not understand that rule of law provides other paths to the same freedoms in the anglo countries (the US inherited those same freedoms from England anyway), and that court decisions, Acts of parliament, etc, can also form part of the constitution. The British constitution, for instance, contains laws, statutes and unwritten covenants that go back 1000 years or more.

    In this case, no Act of parliament can be passed by one government that can’t be undone by another. The federal judiciary is independent and continues to rule in favour of more and more freedoms.

    A free press – despite the obstacles put in its path – continues to agitate for justice and fair play and won’t be silenced in this country. As the de facto voice of the people, it has the power to move mountains and bring down governments.

    Which all makes for a fluid kind of democracy that can change for the times, according to the wishes of the people – who are the government, after all.

    Sometimes acquainting yourself with knowledge about others can add to, rather than detract from, your own view of the world.

  • STM

    Make that American-style Bill of Rights

  • STM

    There was one thing we learned from the American experience and whacked into our constitution: that the federation was indissoluble (the only thing that is I think) – to ensure that no state could secede from the Commonwealth.

    They looked at the American disaster of the Civil War and while enshrining the rights of the states and territories (which are like self-governing states now anyway) wanted to make sure it wouldn’t happen here under the federal system.

    Our political system appears very American in form: a federation of states, with an elected federal House of Representatives and a Senate elected on the basis of proportional representation (unlike the US).

    But in function, it is based on the British system of parliamentary democracy.

    Some people have called it the “Washminster” system.

    Interestingly, for Americans living in Australia, it’s just like home.

    And Britons and Canadians living here say the same thing.

    What does that tell you about different paths to the same destination??

    There is more than one route: all, however, are made possible only by rule of law.

  • STM

    Franco: “the Constitution and Bill of Rights were unequaled in there time”

    True up to a point, and it’s intent certainly was unequalled – but it’s only true in respect of the fact they were actually written down.

    In fact, those laws and rights already existed in the colonies under English law.

    The framers didn’t just pluck that stuff out of thin air. They drew from existing laws in the colonies, rights accepted in the English tradition, and the laws of England dating back centuries before the revolution.

    The framers also went to great pains to explain that and how’d they’d come at it, even though there was unpleasantness.

    Unfortunately, a lot of Americans think they just invented it all and wrote it down like Mohammed’s revelation from God.

    Not so.

    Even the due process provision of the fifth amendment is partly a rewrite of a statute of Edward III of England made in 1354 – yes, that’s right 1354 – which itself is a slight rewrite of the Magna Carta of 1215, just adding the words “due process”.

    As evidence: Edward’s statute, which still exists today as part of the British constitution (although it has been overtaken by more rights in this regard in the centuries between):

    “No man of what estate or condition that he be, shall be put out of land or tenement, nor taken, nor imprisoned, nor disinherited, nor put to death, without being brought in answer by due process of the law.”

    Here is the rewrite by the founding fathers for the Bill of Rights, with additions reflecting America’s situation at the time and the laws inherited from England in the centuries between, applying right up to the revolution and beyond:

    “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”

    It helps to know everything about your own history, and where and when your laws and rights were first expressed, not just the bit that started in 1776.

    It’s also not accurate to believe that Americans were an oppressed people prior to the revolution. They were far from it.

    They key issue was the right of a people who felt they’d come of age to make their own decisions, free of interference from the “mother country”.

    Oppression made for a good catch-cry for the revolutionaries, but it wasn’t an accurate way to describe their situation.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Fascinating comments, Stan.

  • STM

    Thanks mate.

    Even though it often feels like a) getting poked in the eye with a burnt stick, and b) bashing your head against a brick wall, I feel still we have a duty to explain some of these things to some of our more historically challenged American brethren.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good job, Franco (#465)

    An unsung hymn to the forgotten man. He was to busy making a living to get involved in politics.

    I’ll try to remember and honor him or her respectively.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #473,

    You’ve got to. Not to speak out would be like condescending to a lie.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I feel still we have a duty to explain some of these things to some of our more historically challenged American brethren.

    Agreed.

    What I find really interesting about participating in the politics section is just how adversarial the whole thing is. As many might have noticed, I can get rather caught up in it myself.

    The truth is that I find the whole libs vs. conservatives thing fascinating because it doesn’t mean the same thing in Canada. Sure, we’ve got left-leaning people and right-leaning people like anywhere else, but we don’t have this idea of making the other parties and their supporters our enemies.

    People in American ascribe whole human traits to other supporters of a political party (ie. Republicans are racist, Democrats are godless) where as we don’t have so much of that stuff in our political conversation because the people don’t stand for it. We also don’t have scores of political commentators, at least on television, which leaves us out of the loop of pundits telling us how and what to think.

    My family votes for the Conservative Party now but did vote Liberal earlier and tends to vote for Liberals or NDP on the provincial level, while I alternate my vote between NDP, Liberal and Green depending on the particular issues at the time. If we have yet another election (third one in three years, please God no!), I’m not sure who I’ll vote for. So it’s a different animal, again, and makes for interesting conversation outside of Canada to say that I think a Liberal gov’t would make sense federally but not provincially. My father-in-law is continually amazed by this.

    There’s not so much of this “pick a side” notion in Canada, at least as far as my experiences have shown. Conservative voters in Canada aren’t all that different from Liberal voters or Green voters or NDP voters or even Bloc voters. We somehow have managed years of political discourse, tonnes of elections, and scads of other good stuff without resorting to calling the other political party “Nazis” or resorting to childish behaviour to make a point. Even a slight against the PM’s sweater-wearing habits last election run was deemed “too personal” by most Canadians. Go figure.

    I find our political process more freeing, less convoluted and less of a hassle than the American one. I can talk to a Canadian Conservative and he or she won’t accuse me of being a communist (probably because we’re ALL commies, right?) nor will he or she berate me for being stupid/godless/whatever.

    Amazing but true. The more I learn about what’s going on in America over the most trivial of issues, the more I’m discovering that I just might be a patriot after all.

  • STM

    Jordan:

    Yep, likewise … although the previous PM, John Howard, who was a mate of Bush, did put us on the track to being quite divided by handing back responsibility to private industry for deciding onm workers’ rights and conditions. Yeah, right. We ended that 100 years ago, and the reason still hasn’t changed.

    They also made a huge issue of refugees and asylum seekers, knowing that being tough would excite a hard-core group in the community opposed to ANY change. It’s unforgiveable IMO to get votes out of the suffering of vulnerable people.

    However, he got his comeuppance at the election in 2007 and became only the second sitting Australian PM to lose his seat in a federal election. The reason: he turned on the people he’d originally courted – “so-called “aspirational Australians” – by taking away their workplace rights, which threatened their jobs, paypackets, mortgages, lifestyles and working conditions. It was just an ideological move to destroy the unions, but it backfired.

    None of us were fooled either on the true motives of the inhumane immigration policies that saw asylum seekers and illegals locked up for years on end in detention camps (true, they had good food, medical care, TV, education and a clean place to sleep, but it still had wire around it) while their cases went through the system.

    That the people had the power to change all that at the ballot box is the true beauty of modern, liberal democracy.

    However, like your experience, no one really gives a rat’s generally about who you vote for. It’s considered a private matter, although most of us are pretty vocal in terms of how we feel about politicians generally.

    I am the only Labor voter in my wife’s group of friends (except for my wife, who is a hard-core Labor voter), who all vote Liberal (read: conservative). My mates are kind of split, some are swinging voters. I won’t vote Labor in the next State election because the New South Wales government is a joke. So it’s not a case of being immovable. Depends what’s happening.

    My parents were Liberal voters. When I told them I voted Labor, they looked crestfallen … for five seconds.

    Then my mum asked me if I’d had a good surf and told me we were having steak for dinner.

    Our current PM, Kevin Rudd, looks like a dentist, makes up words like the US military, could win an Olympic gold medal for boring everyone shitless … and bizarrely, has made nerd = cool.

    This country’s economy, incidentally, is the only major western economy that hasn’t gone into recession.

    It has actually grown through the global financial crisis … only slighjtly, but still.

    We just aren’t feeling the effects here.

    Maybe it’s because the ground is full of valuable stuff (a whole continent full of iron ore) and China, Japan and everyone else is still buying it up like there’s no tomorrow.

    Rudd has ridden a wave of popularity on the back of that, pointing out that his generous stimulus bills have kept us out of the woods.

  • STM

    How good is Christine, BTW … nearly 500 comments. Nice work.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right, Christine. Now it’s your time to post.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Wow, I am so honored…479 comments!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Christine,

    When you reach a thousand, you’ll get a reward.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger, what will it be? LOL!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A trip to Bermuda, Christine, but don’t quote me.

  • STM

    Jordan,

    I’ll do a Mark. We are indeed the Lucky Country. Richard Clapton’s pretty good, but there are other reasons why I think Oz is the best country in the world (and I don’t mean it in that mine’s better than yours way). Being able to do this across a zillion miles of deserted coastline summer and winter on a continent bordered by the Indian and Pacific Oceans is another one.

    Seriously, it’s a bloody paradise. I just couldn’t live anywhere else. I got offered the chance to live and work in the US many years ago and I just couldn’t bring myself to do it (nice to visit there though). Maybe that’s why we don’t care that much about politics until about three months before an elections.

  • STM

    And Jordan, When you grow up in this kind of environment, what else is there that could possibly be so important?????

    Dr Pacific cures all ills.

  • Franco

    437 – Cindy

    Franco,

    My religion requires human sacrifice. If I can talk a volunteer into it, do I have your approval?

    If not, how would you handle it?

    Why are you asking me, a common sinner, for my approval for this? That is a question for Jesus Christ, who was sinless, and yet was himself a human sacrifice.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Franco, you still love me. I knew you couldn’t resist me. :-)

    I was hoping to engage you in a dialogue about limits on personal freedoms– ‘boundaries’. Like how calling some one a rapist (if they aren’t), say, isn’t freedom of speech. I thought my freedom of religion example might work. I guess not.

  • zingzing

    “That is a question for Jesus Christ, who was sinless, and yet was himself a human sacrifice.”

    never thought about it that way.

  • http://delibernation.com/blog/3 Silas Kain

    Wow, I am so honored…479 comments!

    And here you were ready to throw in the towel. We love you, Christine.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    488

    me neither, but that’s because I don’t conceive of jesus to actually be ‘sinless’…unless one means that without religion, there’s nothing to call ‘sinless’.

    if jesus was human (which is what i see him as being) then he was just like the rest of us poor slobs–‘cept that good insight he had. he breached his own ethical views, found himself in a quandary, at times…did the utterly wrong thing (was an asshole) at other times.

    sorry franco, jesus can’t hear me saying he was an asshole. but i know one thing, if he could, and was up on things contemporary, he’d understand exactly what i’m saying. do you think jesus would understand socially oriented rap music?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Franco is a lover, not a fighter. But he’s such a poor lover, he can’t help but being a (horrible) fighter.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “a human sacrifice”?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “an a ..e” That’s sacrilegious, Cindy, even for an atheist.

    But we do we apocryphal records that he was quite a prankster, a “normal” child as it were, e.g., throwing rocks at pigeons, etc.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It seems to me, the commonly accepted economic wisdom requires human sacrifice (meaning innocent dead people) all the time.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Is that what our beloved Franco meant by “human sacrifice”? That even Jesus must fall victim to the capitalism system, for the good of the Francos of this world?

    I can’t believe he really said that.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    He didn’t he was quoting me when he said, ‘human sacrifice’.

  • Baronius

    A quick cut-and-paste from Hebrews:

    We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet was without sin….Such a high priest meets our need – one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself….He did not enter [the temple] by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, he got stuck with it. But I thought it was fun. And Franco, the good bud that he is, surely will appreciate it. Am I wrong?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, finishing reading Pratt. Fascinating. We should resume in a half an hour or so.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It’s a human foible to create perfect heroes, Baronius. Humans wrote the bible.

    My nephew thought that Tupac Shakur was still alive. I briefly discussed what an urban legend is and left him to his own devices. He came back and told me he knows Tupac is dead as he saw his autopsy photos! UGH! But, whatever it takes.

    (I’ve noticed he’s been a dedicated researcher ever since, with no further input. Gotta love a kid who comes to you and tells you that he researched his idea of a career as a pyrotechnician and discovered it was more conducive to a hobby.)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Right-O Roger,

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Done!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark,

    You shouldn’t ask for “solutions” from Pratt. It’s good enough she presents the case – conceptually and historically. What more can one ask for?

    It’s out job! And I’m thankful she didn’t end with (complete) closure.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Wrong thread, sorry.

  • Baronius

    Cindy, I wasn’t expecting to persuade you. I was simply using a citation to explain why Franco would see Jesus as a perfect being who offered himself as a human sacrifice.

  • Franco

    487 – Cindy

    Franco, you still love me. I knew you couldn’t resist me. :-)

    Yes, it appears you have my number……..baby :-).

    I was hoping to engage you in a dialogue about limits on personal freedoms– ‘boundaries’. Like how calling some one a rapist (if they aren’t), say, isn’t freedom of speech.

    Calling someone a rapist (if they aren’t). That would be an attempt at injuring the personal freedoms of someone else to falsely say that. It falls in the category of slander depending on the severity it has negatively effected that persons life and or livelihood.

    Neither would freedom of speech apply if you yelled, “FIRE” in a movie theater when there wasn’t one. First, you would be infringing on the personal freedom of everyone in the theater who freely chose to purchase a ticket to sit and relax and enjoy the movie. Second, you could cause a panic and people could be hurt or killed, which really cancels out their personal freedom.

    Don’t you think that our personal freedom ends at the point before our actions (word or deed) encroaches, hinders, or takes away those exact same personal freedoms of others. I do.

  • Franco

    Baronius @ 505

    That is exactly why, thank you Baronius.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    506 Franco,

    Yes I do think there are boundaries that are appropriate. (Though we may disagree on how they might best be dealt with.) In the conversation prior, though, I was responding to what I though was your temporary forgetfulness maybe about that.

    505 Bar, Sorry, I failed to notice that.

  • Franco

    490 – Cindy

    sorry franco, jesus can’t hear me saying he was an asshole. but i know one thing, if he could, and was up on things contemporary, he’d understand exactly what i’m saying. do you think jesus would understand socially oriented rap music?

    Well, I believe He can hear you. And I believe He knows the human heart (its forces for love and its forces for evil) better then anyone, past, present, or future. So whatever the human heart is trying to say in socially oriented rap music, He knows exactly its forces for love and its forces for evil.

    Now rather then choosing to define evil, I choose to define love.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres Cut and pased from 1 Corinthians.

  • Franco

    494 – Cindy

    It seems to me, the commonly accepted economic wisdom requires human sacrifice (meaning innocent dead people) all the time.

    That is true to degree, which I am not debating, and it’s wrong and it should not be that way.

    Now when you say “commonly accepted” do you mean most people participate in it to a large degree, or do you mean that because it has always existed at some degree since the dawn of man that people have grown accustom to knowing it has always existed.

  • STM

    Franco: “Don’t you think that our personal freedom ends at the point before our actions (word or deed) encroaches, hinders, or takes away those exact same personal freedoms of others. I do.”

    Exactly, Franco, which is why in some countries they’ve enacted laws to stop other people ruining your life either by making false accusations or vilifying you on the basis of race, age, sex, sexual preference, etc.

    It’s no different to what you’re saying above. They just made it law.

    Also, free speech is not absolute in the US, either.

    The examples you quote are correct. The other one ruled upon by the Supreme Court is where a statement may incite others to break the law.

    That also doesn’t fall under the protections of the 1st amendment.

    It’s doubtful anyway that the framers of the constitition meant for people to be able to say anything they liked without consequence, although some Americans not familar with their own laws believe that to be the case.

    In most countries free-speech laws are taken to mean the right to express a vocal, public “lawful” opinion, for instance on why a govermnment or a politician should be thrown out of office, without risk of the government throwing you into jail, killing you or taking away your property of your livelihood.

    Given that some misdirected speech by citizens can also have the function of endangering those rights listed in the paragraph above, it stands to reason that citizens can’t just say whatever they like – and that applies according to the laws of the United States too.

    In that respect, regarding your comparisons with Canada, the only difference is that Canada has legislated for that in an Act of Parliament. Under those laws, you can’t say things like “all muslims should be killed” or “all whites are nazi scum” or “all gays should be locked up” because it serves to vilify. I like to think that another human right the founding fathers forgot to add is the right not be vilified for no good reason. My view is that Canada has ADDED a basic human right for its citizens, not taken one away.

    Regarding the US, as the framers themselves suggested quite strongly, it’s up to Americans of the following generations to take up the slack and change these things as they see fit – through the courts if need be.

    My experience: One state of Australia (Victoria) has done it too, as have many European nations who’ve learned by bitter experience what happens if you don’t.

    I believe, however, that common-sense should prevail: not eveyrthing expressing an opposite point of view should be regarded as vilification. I guess it’s all in the wording.

    None of this means that lawful free speech is banned in Canada under their criminal code, however. They are aimed, if you look at the wording, specifically at stopping anyone advocating genocide or inciting hatred.

    All citizens should be equal. Freedom, to an anglo-celtic middle-class white, can mean something completely different to someone who finds their path in life blocked by vilification on the basis of race, place of birth, religion, age, gender, sexual preference, etc.

    Freedom is for everyone, not just a select few who think the rules only apply to them.

  • Clavos

    That’s sacrilegious, Cindy, even for an atheist.

    …is an oxymoron.

  • STM

    Rog: “But we do we apocryphal records that he was quite a prankster, a “normal” child as it were, e.g., throwing rocks at pigeons, etc.”

    Lol.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you suggesting that atheists have no sense of the sacred, Clavos?

    Howdy, Stan.

  • STM

    Hey, Rog, you’re on fire tonight mate!

    Very funny, that comment above. Made me giggle.

    Cheers.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It was a shot in the dark, Stan. Woke up in the middle of the night looking for bourbon, found none, so decided to post.

  • Franco

    511 – STM

    Franco: “Don’t you think that our personal freedom ends at the point before our actions (word or deed) encroaches, hinders, or takes away those exact same personal freedoms of others. I do.”

    Exactly, Franco, which is why in some countries they’ve enacted laws to stop other people ruining your life either by making false accusations or vilifying you on the basis of race, age, sex, sexual preference, etc.

    It’s no different to what you’re saying above. They just made it law. In that respect, regarding your comparisons with Canada, the only difference is that Canada has legislated for that in an Act of Parliament.

    STM, with all due respect, you are in error to be thinking that what your saying is no different to what I’m saying, because they are in reality really quite different.

    While the difference apparently appears to be too subtle to pick up on, the differences actually stand on opposite sides of a chasm that marks the critical difference between freedom, and the subtly creation of a totalitarian theocracy creating oppression through political correctness. To help remedy the inability to distinguish this chasm, I offer the following evidence in this post.

    My view is that Canada has ADDED a basic human right for its citizens, not taken one away.

    The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal disagrees with you, and so do I.

    The decline in Canada of freedom of expression that you speak so proudly about has been vilifying people, large and small, all across Canada. Ironically, the same law you laud over is finally getting called out for it by its own enforces, The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, who are now refusing to enforce it. I as an American, solute them for doing so.

    For Americans the principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech. Those who do wrong are responsible for what they do, those who speak about it are not.

    It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable and or politically correct. But the true test in the defense of freedom of speech is most critically defined when the message is one many people might find repulsive. It is the price that must be paid for such freedoms, and if for no other reason then to know we still have it.

    But there are other reasons more important. No matter how comfy and politically correct governments want to make their version of freedom of speech, real freedom isn’t free, it isn’t always comfortable, nor is it easy to hang on to, and it doesn’t come from the government at all. It belongs to the people, and it is the people who grate the government limited powers to protect it. That it one of the most important lessons our founding fathers taught us and they made it clear in the founding documents.

    Real freedom and hanging on to it is at the heart of what American has always been about. We never had the concepts of dependence of kings or queens of nobility guiding us from the start, we only had the respect for individual freedom and responsibility as our guide, and after more then two centuries we still remain willing to pay the price for it. I pray we always will.

    None of this means that lawful free speech is banned in Canada under their criminal code, however. They are aimed, if you look at the wording, specifically at stopping anyone advocating genocide or inciting hatred.

    The best laid schemes of mice and men. The decline of freedom of expression in Canada began with seemingly minor and understandable speech restrictions. In 1990, the Canadian supreme court upheld the conviction of James Keegstra, a public-high-school teacher, for propagating Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic views to his public high-school students, despite repeated warnings from his superiors to stop. Keegstra was convicted of the crime of “willfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group,” which carries a penalty of up to two years in jail. Criminalizing hate speech, the court stated, was a “reasonable” restriction on expression, and it therefore passed constitutional muster.

    But, not surprisingly, the inevitable result of allowing these initial speech restrictions has been the gradual but significant growth of censorship and suppression of civil liberties across Canada. In many cases, speech is suppressed because it conflicts with the Canadian government’s official agenda and is considered “politically incorrect”.

    For example, the Canadian supreme court recently turned down an appeal by a Christian minister convicted of inciting hatred against Muslims, even though an Ontario appellate court had found that the minister did not intentionally incite hatred. Yet he appeal was turned down because the court felt he had been correctly convicted for being willfully blind to the effects of his actions.

    This decision led Robert Martin, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Western Ontario, to comment that he increasingly thinks “Canada now is a totalitarian theocracy. I see this as a country ruled today by what I would describe as a secular state religion [of political correctness]. Anything that is regarded as heresy or blasphemy is not tolerated.”

    Robert Martin – The Best in Canadian Law Books, Bar None

    Freedom is for everyone, not just a select few who think the rules only apply to them.

    Yes, I believer it dose too. But thinking that freedoms are afforded us from government is an oxymoron, and the most dangerous of all.

    Freedom only can belong to those who are willing to pay the price for it, and the price that follows in hanging on to it. Not everyone is able to, or willing to pay these costs, either by result of an increasingly freedom oppressive government, or worse, they just what to be simply afforded them by the government.

    The latter comes closest to what you just said above, and it is the biggest fallacy of them all. The willingness to surrender to a governments watered down version of politically correct from freedom is a slippery slope. Once they do that, many can be lead further and when that starts, people will be further compromising real freedom, even againts each other, just to stay on the side of this politiclly correct government monster. We saw it in the atrocities of 20th century Europe.

    My experience: One state of Australia (Victoria) has done it too, as have many European nations who’ve learned by bitter experience what happens if you don’t.

    Running from the frying pan into the fire. The European bitter experience you speak of came about in larger part, for the exact reasons I described above. And your comments, albeit while sincere are uninformed, and are proof that history is once again trying to repeat itself. Thankfully clearer minds in Canada are starting to take note.

    Last week the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruled that Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act – which gives human rights tribunals the power to issue penalties of up to 20,000 dollars against people who publish hate speech on the Internet – violates Section 2 of the Charter of Human Rights (namely, the right to freedom of speech) and is therefore unconstitutional. In effect, the Tribunal stripped itself of its own punitive powers, and I applaud them for that decision.

    Dealing with hate speech through human rights tribunals is a frightful image. Section 13 gives plaintiffs with no injury or relationship to the alleged hate speech the right to sue publishers or authors in front of appointed tribunals that can then issue punitive punishments (including fines of up to 10,000 dollars payable to the government or 20,000 dollars to an identified victim). The system allows only well-connected and wealthy complainants to see their case through to a verdict, which has resulted in one lawyer, Richard Warman, being responsible for the lion’s share of Section 13 cases. Even if a complaint is judged to be invalid, the complaint process often takes years, and is both financially destructive and emotionally exhausting for the defendant as his freedoms and livelihood erode.

    That’s the message the Canadian government needs to hear about prosecuting hate speech through flawed human rights tribunals, and, thankfully, it’s a message that might be starting to get through. Apparently one state of Australia (Victoria) might need to hear it too.

    And while stripping human rights tribunals of their power to prosecute hate speech may allow some willfully ignorant and unpleasant writing to go unpunished, it is the price Canadians must pay for real freedom, if thats what they truly want.

    Rebuttal?

  • STM

    Franco: “The European bitter experience you speak of came about in larger part, for the exact reasons I described above”.

    Actually, Franco, you’re completely wrong on that. It happened because no one wanted to speak out and no governments had the guts to crack down on it.

    If you can’t see the truth of what I’m saying and choose to stick blindly to this ideological nonsense without punting up anything that isn’t the same broken-record one-argument right-wing libertarian bollocks you always do, end of conversation.

  • STM

    “Real freedom and hanging on to it is at the heart of what American has always been about. We never had the concepts of dependence of kings or queens of nobility guiding us from the start, we only had the respect for indivifual freedoms.”

    I’ll tell you what Franco, you appear to have only a grade-school understanding of this stuff, and that kind of statement above is the very reason why I won’t argue with you any further.

    What you forget is that America was a British colony for a long, long time, and was also very loyalist. It also wasn’t oppressed by any standard. Like I say, it made a nice catchcry for revolutionaries, but it wasn’t accurate.

    It had virtually the same laws and rights it has now (except they weren’t codified in a single document), all of which existed prior to the revolution.

    If you’re in any doubt about that, there’s one easy way to research it without going back through the history books: The criminal justice systems of the US, Britain, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc, are virtually identical in both form and function.

    That includes jury trials, the right to silence, the right to counsel, even down to Miranda-style warnings in each place, etc.

    Only it didn’t spread out from the US … it went everywhere else FROM Britain. Those kinds of little clues might be helpful in properly rationalising your flawed thought process on this.

    The US system the revolutionaries opted for beginning in 1776 is simply an extension of the liberal democratic tradition, transplanted across the Atlantic, that began in Europe 100 years earlier.

    It is not the unique, special, shining beacon on the hill that those like you who buy in to the myth of American exceptionalism believe it is.

    As I pointed out previously, the framers of the constitution didn’t pluck this stuff out of thin air – they looked to England for it.

    Also, Britain became a constitutional monarchy in 1688, when Parliament took away the power of the King and gave it to the people.

    So Britons – who made up most of the emigrants to America – weren’t used to being guided by a king anyway. They were guided by Parliament.

    That’s why it’s not worth arguing with you mate … you just repeat the same old stuff without knowing much about the facts of history.

    I’ll agree that other countries in Europe didn’t condtribute much to the US experience – especially France – but the great paradox here is that the US went to war with Britain in 1776 when the champion of personal freedoms, natural rights and liberties and religious tolerance in Europe at the time was not France, but Britain.

    That statute of Edward III I posted for you earlier made in 1354 is somewhat illuminating, although I suspect you haven’t looked at it.

    Also, the British banned slavery in Britain itself in about 1770 (interesting coincidence on the dates thetre, eh?) through a ruling of the Copurt of King’s Bench, banned the slave trade in 1808 and by the 1830s had freed every slave in the empire and paid compensation to slave owners. In places like the West Indies, former slaves were even given land.

    America was still fighting a war over slavery in the late 1800s.

    It ain’t a special place, Franco. It paid lip service to freedom for all men, when some were still bound in chains. Even Jefferson was a slave owner.

    For that reason, I believe America was founded on a lie and a myth.

    Times change, I’ll agree. It took nearly 200 years for good intent to catch up with reality, but don’t delude yourself that the US was the original champion of equality, freedom and liberty.

    Right up until the 1960s, blacks couldn’t eat in the same restaurants as whites, catch the same buses, use the same toilets.

    There’s a large part of the population in the US that won’t agree that the US offers all those rights to all men and women in equal measure, I can assure you.

    And it never has.

    Which is where your argument falls down completely.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, ideological gobbledygook. It’s like trying to argue with a catechism.

  • STM

    See Franco, I have a different view on the American revolution.

    My view is that the founding fathers were not so much concerned with liberty, equality and freedom but as an elite group, they were more concerned with propping up their own money-making schemes, their institutions and their power and prestige.

    Slavery was one of those instititions and The Court of King’s Bench ruling (about 1770) on slavery was a precursor to the revolution, and news of it spread through the American colonies like wildfire, beginning in Virginia. It actually caused outrage. As I say, the closeness of the dates between this ruling and the revolution should be regarded as very strong evidence here.

    Anti-slavers in Britain had used the writ of Habeas Corpus to have a slave bound for Virginia – James Sommersett – freed, and then his case heard in court.

    As a result, it effectively ended the institution of slavery in Britain, although it took another 30 years for legislation to back it up.

    Wealthy American slave owners became very worried.

    It is against this backdrop that the machinations of some of the revoltionaries should be viewed. It is an absolutely vital argument in American history that’s never been properly addressed.

    It still astounds me that Jefferson is held in such reverence in the US. While talking longest and loudest about freedom, liberty and equality, he made sure he held on to his own slaves.

    This is the lie and the myth, and as a libertarian whose views are based upon those of the founding fathers, you are simply an inheritor of this lie and myth.

    Times have changed, Franco …

    I understand my view is controversial, but I hold it nevertheless. Any right-thinking person looking at the evidence couldn’t hold any other view, or at least would have to give it some credence.

    That is not to say that the modern United States is not a great place. It very obviously now is. But like I say, it took 200 years for the good intent to catch up to reality.

    And Rog, thanks for backing me up.

    I don’t expect you to agree with all this stuff here, as we’ve discussed similar things in the past, but I know you can see some truth in it.

    The King’s Bench ruling on James Somersett BTW is very good fodder for study as a starting point in this debate. His “owner”, a Mr Stuart, of Virginia, had petitioned to have him returned after he ran away in London.

    The Chief Justice of the King’s Bench, Lord Mansfield, issued a judgment which concluded:

    “…The state of slavery is of such a nature, that it is incapable of being introduced on any reasons, moral or political; but only positive law, which preserves its force long after the reasons, occasion, and time itself from whence it was created, is erased from memory: it’s so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law. Whatever inconveniences, therefore, may follow from a decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England; and therefore the black (Somersett) must be discharged.”

    IMO this is the real reason behind certain members of the elite in the colonies supporting the revolution. Others among them may well have had nobler motives, but I don’t believe some of the others did, and Jefferson certainly was one of those who didn’t.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In fact, I believe many in the British parliament were opposing the abolition of slavery on the grounds that the colonies were engaged in slave trade, as well as the French who, many feared, would willing pick up the slack of the British discontinued.

    Am I right there, Stan? – my vague recollection from Amazing Grace, the movie.

  • STM

    And this is not purely an attack on the American experience. I have plenty to say about the treatment of the indigenous population and other non-white anglo-celts in Australia, too.

    Please view my comments on the basis of a strongly held belief in freedom and equality for ALL men and women, rather than on a we’re-better-than-you-are basis.

  • STM

    Yes, you are quite right Rog … and bizarrely, it was the MPs belonging to the little coterie set up by the Court (King George) which illegally meddled in parliament by peddling the King’s influence that tended to have the same views as the slave-owners of America, and against whom they’d so vehemently fought a few years earlier.

    Lord Tarleton was one of these and a leader of the faction.

    Interestingly, Tarleton (Banastre Tarleton, or “Bloody Ban” as the Americans called him) was a British hero of the War of Independence – such a good soldier, he was hated by the Americans for his perceived brutality in taking the fight to them, although the evidence tends to show he was no more brutal than any other on either side and was a man simply doing what he felt was his duty.

    But Britain was as much a modern liberal democracy as the US in that period after the revolution (many Americans don’t realise either that a majority of Britons sympathised with the rebels in certain regards and that rather than America outright winning the War, anti-war, pro-independence MPs – mainly Whigs – in the British parliament came to power and actually voted to discontinue it and to recognise the fledgling nation. They had supported the American cause. Had they not, despite the defeat at Yorktown, it might have gone on for another 20 years. Certainly the King wanted to fight on, but Parliament did not and won out).

    I say Britain was even more a liberal democracy on the issue of slavery, which is why the anti-slave movement, with the backing an informed public becoming more horrified by the truth with every passing month, eventually won out.

    Amazing Grace is a great movie, and a very accurate portrayal of what occurred.

    And if I’m not mistaken, that little fella (the Duke of Clarence?) who hung around with Lord Tarleton in the movie eventually became the King of England.

    In real life, he was taller and had been in some action as a serving officer of the Royal Navy.

    He also lived in sin for many years with an Irish actress and possibly as a result, was a supporter of the Catholic Emancipation bill :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And if I recall, it was precisely the war with the colonies which made the issue a touchy area for William Pitt who was in favor of the abolition but had to keep his distance.

    The character, however, I like the most is that of the Lord Charles Fox (excellently portrayed).

  • Franco

    518 – STM

    Franco: “The European bitter experience you speak of came about in larger part, for the exact reasons I described above”.

    Actually, Franco, you’re completely wrong on that. It happened because no one wanted to speak out and no governments had the guts to crack down on it.

    If you can’t see the truth of what I’m saying and choose to stick blindly to this ideological nonsense without punting up anything that isn’t the same broken-record one-argument right-wing libertarian bollocks you always do, end of conversation.

    Well STM, we will have to agreed to disagree on this one point.

    But is this all you can come up with to my post #517 that centers specifically with challenging your support of Canada’s decline in freedom of expression? A discussion/debate on Canada no less that you sought me out to start.

    You assert that human rights have been advanced through Canada’s hate speech laws and claim it has provided more freedom. Your exact words were – “My view is that Canada has ADDED a basic human right for its citizens, not taken one away”.

    You love to talk about human rights, yet you haven’t once addressed the outlining of facts I presented about The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal recent repudiation of this law and their recent refusal to continue enforcing it any more.

    Are we to take you seriously about your support of human rights? Then why haven’t you addressed The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal who stands in oppostion to what you claim STM?

    You love to talk about the law, yet you haven’t once addressed Robert Martin, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Western Ontario who has stated that he sees the effects of these laws turning Canada into a totalitarian theocracy and a country ruled today by what he describes as a secular state religion [of political correctness] where anything that is regarded as heresy or blasphemy is not tolerated.”

    Are we to take you seriously about your support of constitutional law? Then Why haven’t you addressed this professor of constitutional law in Canada who stands in oppostion to what you claim STM?

    Are you telling us that all you can come up with in challenging the merits of these leading Canadian experts, who both stand in opposition to you on this matter, is to throw the above ad hominem attacks at me instead, and then threaten to take your ball and go home.

    Not only is that the sign of a losing hand STM, kindly tell us how that’s not the act of someone going down in flames and folding!

    Believe me, will get to your false assumptions about what you think I know about American History, but first lets stay centered on this Canadian discussion/debate you whated to start with me. I think we’d all like to here your answers to the above questions, without ad hominem attacks this time!

  • STM

    Franco: Believe me, will get to your false assumptions about what you think I know about American History.

    When you have half an idea of them and what you present isn’t bound up in ideologocal nonsense, Franco, get back to me.

    I’ll debate you on the truth of history any time.

    And I still maintain the right not to be vilified is a basic human right.

    Therefore Canada has added a right that probably wouldn’t go astray in the US.

  • STM

    Franco: “Robert Martin, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Western Ontario”.

    That’s just his point of view, Franco.

    Canada will never be a totalitarian state.

    You can tell that by the happy smiles on the faces of the people.

    The usual yardstick applies: people from all over the world are knocking down the door to get in, which indicates to me that your assumption – and that of the good professor – is wrong.

    Of course, the very fact that there is a healthy debate in Canada in relation to this would indicate to me and any other normal person that free speech is no danger of being denied.

    I think you’ve said before that you weren’t born in the US. Where do you come from originally, Franco?

  • STM

    Here’s another view about your liberty, which you seem to have invested with an amazing, other-wrldy character.

    The American revolutionaries weren’t engaged in a struggle for liberty – they weren’t an oppressed people – they were engaged in a struggle for independence.

    There’s a big difference, which is also one of the reasons why I believe libertarian ideals expressed as an ideology in this case are an absolute crock.

  • boooo

    hi!!!
    1

  • joy

    im just sick of working and still going to bed hungry…