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President Bush, Secret Spies, and Telling Lies in Post-9/11 Aftermath

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While debate raged over limitations on personal freedoms versus security concerns in the months after the nation was shaken by the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, it is now alleged by government officials that President Bush secretly allowed restrictions on eavesdropping by domestic officials to be lifted.

The New York Times dropped this bombshell today:

Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.

Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible “dirty numbers” linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.

As this story develops, it will be interesting to see if it has “legs” or if it is seen as just another piece of the historical puzzle stemming from the chaotic and woozy months following the worst attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor.

In any event, President Bush’s political advisors would likely do well to see this revelation – if proven to be factual and substantive – as a potential dagger in the heart of an administration that has just started to pick up positive momentum (particularly on the economy and the Iraqi elections) after months of unremittingly bad news and sagging poll numbers.

The timing of this story is ironic, too, as President Bush has only just announced that he will give in to the demands of Sen. John McCain and a wide and bipartisan swath of the American public and formally ban torture of US detainees, both domestically and abroad:

The agreement represented a rare policy reversal for Bush on his signature issue: his leadership in the battle against terrorism. It followed an unusual rebuke of the president from lawmakers in his own Republican Party, who largely fell in line behind McCain, a former Vietnam prisoner of war and torture survivor with unassailable authority on the subject.

The White House had resisted a formal ban, arguing that existing law already outlawed torture. Administration officials had also expressed concern that a ban would undermine US personnel interrogating terror suspects, because detainees would fear them less.

Yet another area of concern, and one becoming all too familiar for a White House that is dealing with or monitoring a host of legal and ethical problems, is the question of whether or not any laws were broken during domestic eavesdropping operations. The New York Times piece goes on to find officials involved in the operation wondering “whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.”

The issue of trust has already become a crucial factor for an administration that is seen to have been misleading on pre-war intelligence, generally bungling in response to Hurricane Katrina, and ethically challenged with regard to the CIA leak case. With these new allegations of ethical and perhaps legal lapses in going after suspected terrorists, will administration critics be given more ammunition to blast away at the credibility of the president, or will the public be galvanized – as they were in the months following 9/11 – by a cowboy president who is fast and loose with the rules because that’s the only way to deal with the threats posed in an era where “our oceans can’t protect us.”

As for ethical troubles, the name that may eventually be remembered for many years to come – and associated with calamitous events on Capitol Hill – is one that is not even widely known yet:

Jack Abramoff.

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  • RedTard

    Another secret leak across the pages of our newspapers. I wonder if the media will pursue this leak with all the voracity that the did the Plame case. Somehow I doubt it.

    As for the electronic monitoring of communication it has been rumored since long before Bush or 9/11 that the NSA had the capability to electronically eavesdrop onto phone conversations with massive computers picking out criminal or terrorist keywords, then flagging and recording them.

    This program has reportedly been in place since the 90’s. The real question is why is it just now becoming a story?

  • Bliffle

    “The real question is why is it just now becoming a story?”

    Because it is illegal.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    RedTard really does ask the perfect question: why did this story leak to the press when it did?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    RedTard, what you’re talking about is Project Echelon, and it hasn’t just hit the news. There was talk in the news about it when it went live during the Clinton administration and then it just sort of faded from the public eye.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    President Bush has only just announced that he will give in to the demands of Sen. John McCain and a wide and bipartisan swath of the American public and formally ban torture

    Which was already banned by our constitution, treaties we had signed and still recognize, and our military manuals.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Yes, but as you well know the devil is in the details and it’s not at all well defined at present… thus the loopholes / leeway and Black Ops sites in Eastern Europe and so on.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, but we have little evidence that torture is going on systematically at those sites. As the CIA continues to maintain, torture doesn’t work and they don’t use it. It seems much more logical to conclude that those sites exist not to torture these terrorists, but to hold them indefinitely separated from their compatriots and out of a position where they can do more harm.

    Dave

  • Secret Spy NO. 23

    This argument is just hurting the troops morale.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States

    As the details of this story are coming out, the Times story appears to be a bit off base, specifically the statement above. Apparently the number of people spied on was very limited – at most a few hundred – and all of the communications which were monitored were international communications – emails and phonecalls – which falls within the NSA’s mandate. So like so many things we see in the media, this appears to just be a tempest in a teapot with very little to it except to score a few points for the left in the ongoing war of disinformation.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    It hurts the troops’ morale to expose a story about secret domestic spying, personal freedoms guaranteed under the constitution, and the notion of what constitutes a legal interrogation?

    Sorry, Secret Spy, I think not.

  • Secret Spy No. 23

    List of people to spy on:
    Brown People
    Democrats
    Dave Nalle
    The Bush Twins

  • Secret Spy No. 23

    Updated
    List of people to spy on:
    Brown People
    Democrats
    Dave Nalle
    The Bush Twins
    Eric Berlin

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    What might be a “tempest in a teapot” to some might be an important story relating to the very nature of our personal liberties to others, Dave.

    Where’s your proof that this New York Times story is “off-base”?

    Meanwhile, while it might be “logical” to you that no torture was going in black sites in Eastern Europe, how would you know that?

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Ah… I see, Secret Spy is not so serious after all. Okay.

  • Secret Spy No. 23

    Dave mentioned misinformation. Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. That’s where to get the facts.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    If nothing illegal is going on in these bases, why does the US need them? PLENTY of jails in the USA.

    Guantanamo is the craziest example, given the nature of the Cuba-US relationship…

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I agree, Christopher. Assuming that everything is hunky-dory (I’ve never tried to spell that before, actually) at “black” sites in Eastern Europe that were only discovered(!) recently doesn’t really wash for me.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I think Mr. Nalle was alluding earlier to a “breaking” story on Drudge about how this story is tied to a book being published.

    That may inform the timing, but it doesn’t necessarily alter the facts!

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    The timing would certainly seem precipitous with the PATRIOT Act’s renewal being before the Senate….

    I, too, would like to see specifically what Dave is referring to with the NYT story being “off base.” On Drudge, all I saw was a link to the Times article.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    The PATRIOT Act just failed to get renewed in the Senate.

    There’s a big story right there!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Updated
    List of people to spy on:
    Brown People
    Democrats
    Dave Nalle
    The Bush Twins
    Eric Berlin

    I survived when Hoover was having me watched, I imagine I can survive the small-timers of today.

    What might be a “tempest in a teapot” to some might be an important story relating to the very nature of our personal liberties to others, Dave.

    The theme is important, no question. But I think that in this instance the actual violation may be pretty minor. Certainly when compared to the fight currently taking place over the Patriot Act.

    Where’s your proof that this New York Times story is “off-base”?

    I didn’t say I had proof, but there was a lot of coverage on the news networks today and various pundits seem to think the story is overblown – and we’re talking about people on the left and the right here.

    Meanwhile, while it might be “logical” to you that no torture was going in black sites in Eastern Europe, how would you know that?

    And how do you know that there IS torture going on? When faced with two possibilities, neither of them supported by anything except statements from two opposing sides I tend to believe the scenario in which America did the right thing until I receive proof to the contrary. Do you do the opposite, and if so, why?

    As for Drudge, I don’t read the site and have no idea what’s on it.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    When faced with two possibilities, neither of them supported by anything except statements from two opposing sides I tend to believe the scenario in which America did the right thing until I receive proof to the contrary. Do you do the opposite, and if so, why?

    Absolutely not, but nice try with the straw man routine!

    When there are secret CIA compounds in Eastern Europe where we’re holding prisoners outside of Geneva conventions and US law, that’s of great concern to me. It doesn’t mean that prisoners are being tortured, but it rings many alarm bells and sends an awful signal to the rest of the planet.

  • gonzo marx

    bah..they can stand there with a straight face and say “no American soldiers or CIA operaives are performing torture” and be telling the Truth…

    how is that so?

    simplicity itself…”civilian contractors”….you know, KBR mercenaries… are doing the “interrogations”… some of the winners among them are ex-KGB/Spetznatz/SAVAK and other “specialists” that now work for the Haliburton subsidiary

    didn’t it strike anyone as strange when during the whole Abu Grahib bit, there was mention of “civilian contractors”….same in GITMO

    what the fuck are “civilian contractors” doing in these places?

    you will also note that it was Alberto Gonzalez (current attorney general, then WH lawyer) who decided to parse the legalese on what is or is not “torture” long in advance, and with an eye for avoidance of US law, long before the public was ever aware of any of this

    it at least appears that much of this stems from a pre-meditated and carefully conceived plan from the beginning…calculated to give maximum “plausable deniability” to the Administration

    as for what we know or do not know about these “black sites” …well now, how naive can one be to even ask for “proof” from such a place, or what goes on inside

    hell, we can’t even find out who leaked what to whom in the WH here in America

    color me disgusted

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.fotolog.com/butki13 Scott Butki

    Wait, I want to be on the enemies list too!

    Good piece,Dave.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    Eric Berlin was the author of this post…

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Thanks for noticing, Christopher!

  • RedTard

    “When there are secret CIA compounds in Eastern Europe where we’re holding prisoners outside of Geneva conventions and US law,”

    Why are you still stuck on this Geneva Convention bit? A laymen reading the document would clearly see that it does not apply to the vast majority of the prisoners in the war on terror. Lawyers with an axe to grind may interpret it differently, but then again lawyers disagree about what the meaning of the word “is” is.

    Please Read Article 4 Section A then ask yourself how could the convention apply?

    If the Geneva convention did apply we would be forced to allow the captured members to communicate with each other making interrogation much more difficult. They would only be required to give their name, rank (Does this even apply to terrorists?), and serial number. We would have to pay them.

    Beyond torture, the GC prohibits insults during interrogations and anything “unpleasant” (I assume this means interrogations must be pleasant) Also, prisoners who refuse to answer cannot be treated differently than those who cooperate. It takes away your ability to offer any exchange for information.

    As for applying US law, that is just insane. Somehow I think our Marines forgot to read them their Miranda rights before they were captured.

    The administration’s stand on the status of prisoners makes perfect sense if you study the problem. Secret CIA prisons and possible authorized torture is another issue altogether.

    “If nothing illegal is going on in these bases, why does the US need them? PLENTY of jails in the USA.”

    I believe that it is illegal unless you completely clear the jail of US prisoners, it certainly is against the Geneva Convention. I personally think, and common sense would tell you, that it is better to have them held overseas than right next door.

  • gonzo marx

    here we go…just a taste of the 5th Amendment from the US onstitution…

    *No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury*

    notice is says “No person”….NOT “no citizen”…or “no uniformed enemy”..etc

    the Rights are for ALL people

    and we fuck ourselves morally and ethically every time we, as a Nation, forget that

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    RedTard — I could have just said “outside any convention” or “well established convention”

  • gonzo marx

    RedTard sez…
    *I personally think, and common sense would tell you, that it is better to have them held overseas than right next door.*

    i call bullshit

    far better to use an old mine, or slap up a fence somewhere in the midwest…Montana, Wyoming..wherever is the middle of nowhere

    so the Question becomes…why Cuba? why anywhere outside of the US?

    see comment #23

    Excelsior!

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I can see the occasional need to have overseas bases of operations for the sake of logistics or speed… it’s the lack of transparancy that bothers me more than anything else.

  • gonzo marx

    excellent point, Eric B

    too much Cynic in my coffee i guess…

    Excelsior!

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Gonzo, I can dig where you’re coming from vis a vis the creepy vibe from overseas “interrogation centers.”

  • RedTard

    Montana or Wyoming? Now your being cruel and unusual. Perhaps there are some additional legal ramifications to bringing them onto US soil.

    What worries me is that the NSA has been listening to overseas communication continuously since the 90’s and the media is bringing it up now just to sell a book.

    We’re arguing about whether terrorists should get protection from the fifth amendment while the government is taking away our own citizens homes and transfering them to rich developers.

    We’re worried about the privacy of people calling a cave in Tora Bora during the war on terror while at home we have cameras on every corner recording our every move and convicting us of violations without so much as a human lifting a finger.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    We’re arguing about whether terrorists should get protection from the fifth amendment while the government is taking away our own citizens homes and transfering them to rich developers.

    I’m not sure what one has to do with the other.

    Also, there’s an enormous difference between “terrorist” and “suspected terrorist.”

  • a.k.a Dade Angel b.ka Mrs. 2pac

    all i gotta say is f*** bush he killed my brother ova weapons we aint found yet

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I’m sorry for your loss.

  • gonzo marx

    RedTard sez…
    *Perhaps there are some additional legal ramifications to bringing them onto US soil.*

    exactly…that’s my point in the comments made above

    for paragraph’s 2 & 3 above…i agree

    then RedTard sez…
    *We’re worried about the privacy of people calling a cave in Tora Bora during the war on terror while at home we have cameras on every corner recording our every move and convicting us of violations without so much as a human lifting a finger.*

    if i am comprehending this correctly you are extrapolating some Issue about traffic cameras giving tickets from monitoring of overseas calls without due process on the possibility it is going to a well jammed area of Afghanistan?

    kind of lost me there…a photo of your car/plate tunning a red light causing you to get a ticket is not even remotely equivalent of the violation to an Individuals Right to due process

    as for Afghanistan, i woudl rather see 100,000 troops there finishing up that job, and nailing bin Laden and Mullah Omar(much more dangerous bearing the “Cloak of Mohammed”)spiritual leader of the Taliban…not to mention all that heroin

    but i digress…

    Excelsior!

  • a.k.a Dade Angel b.ka Mrs. 2pac

    Thank u

  • RedTard

    “I’m not sure what one has to do with the other.”

    They both are questions of legal rights and a continuation of things that worry me. I threw that in because I think that the current use of eminent domain is a much more egregious violation of rights than the camp at GB.

    “causing you to get a ticket is not even remotely equivalent of the violation to an Individuals Right to due process”

    Both cases involve electronic monitoring without probable cause or a search warrant. Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from either one but they still make me feel uneasy.

    Just wait till the NSA hooks all those cameras into the system. Not only will they know everything you say but they’ll know everywhere you go. It still won’t catch Bin Laden, but if your late paying that traffic ticket they’ll know just what door to bust down.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Absolutely not, but nice try with the straw man routine!

    That is NOT a straw man argument, Eric. It’s become increasingly clear to me that there is a significant minority of people in this country who when faced with the scenario I described will always assume the worst of the US government. I don’t think you’re one of them, but it’s worth considering how you react when you first hear of a situation like this.

    When there are secret CIA compounds in Eastern Europe where we’re holding prisoners outside of Geneva conventions and US law,

    If they are in US custody they are not outside of US law or the Geneva Convention. Now if we’re handing them over to the Bulgarians that’s an entirely dfferent issue.

    that’s of great concern to me. It doesn’t mean that prisoners are being tortured, but it rings many alarm bells and sends an awful signal to the rest of the planet.

    It might send a signal to some people that they should watch their asses, but whether that’s worth the negatives is debatable.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    simplicity itself…”civilian contractors”….you know, KBR mercenaries… are doing the “interrogations”… some of the winners among them are ex-KGB/Spetznatz/SAVAK and other “specialists” that now work for the Haliburton subsidiary

    As I’ve mentioned before, one of my good friends has been a ‘civilian contractor’. He was highly decorated when he was with the army and had to leave the service for health reasons related to chemical exposure during his service. He is one of the finest people I know and as honest, incorruptible and patriotic as you can imagine. He also speaks arabic fluently. I feel absolute confidence that wherever he is right now he’s doing good for the US and doing it in a way which reflects well on our country. When you sneer at these ‘mercenaries’ you sneer at people like him who couldn’t continue to serve their country in the military but have found a way to continue that service in the private sector.

    didn’t it strike anyone as strange when during the whole Abu Grahib bit, there was mention of “civilian contractors”….same in GITMO

    what the fuck are “civilian contractors” doing in these places?

    Civilian contractors run the county jail down the road from where I live – ever hear of Wackenhut?

    as for what we know or do not know about these “black sites” …well now, how naive can one be to even ask for “proof” from such a place, or what goes on inside

    It’s our right as citizens to ask for an accounting of what goes on in these places. And we have, and Condoleeza rice has repeatedly stated that they are not carrying out torture. Are you calling her a liar?

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    How do you guys like yesterdays 80% voter turnout in Iraq: “the unwinnable war” Howard Dean.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Looks like this story really might have legs, as this AP story gets into.

    “There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,” declared Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He promised hearings early next year. …

    “I want to know precisely what they did,” Specter said. “How NSA utilized their technical equipment, whose conversations they overheard, how many conversations they overheard, what they did with the material, what purported justification there was.” …

    Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., a member of the Judiciary Committee, said, “This shocking revelation ought to send a chill down the spine of every American.”

    Two respected Senators are already speaking out about this… I think we’re going to see it around for a while.

  • gonzo marx

    RedTard sez…
    *Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from either one but they still make me feel uneasy.*

    that’s bullshit…just because someone is law abiding and has “nothing to fear” is NO excuse for violating their Rights

    and for Dave in comment #42

    i understand your Respect for your friend…i put it to you that his kind of person is represetned, as are the types of people i Referenced…there are over 100,000 of them in Iraq right now…many more around the world fufilling their “contracts”

    my whole point here is that part of what they were hired for revolves around the “specialities” of some “contractors” as well as the deniability afforded by using them as Agents to avoid and evade legal ramifications

    Dave sez…
    *Condoleeza rice has repeatedly stated that they are not carrying out torture. Are you calling her a liar?*

    yes

    Excelsior!

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Condoleeza rice has repeatedly stated that they are not carrying out torture. Are you calling her a liar?

    Again the lack of transparancy raises concerns. It could well be that Condi doesn’t know what’s going on and doesn’t want to know so that there’s plausible deniability. The CIA leak case stacks up very similarly.

  • RedTard

    “that’s bullshit…just because someone is law abiding and has “nothing to fear” is NO excuse for violating their Rights”

    I didn’t say it was and I agree with you completely.

  • gonzo marx

    point taken Red… i did not think that was your Position, i was merely expressing my personal distaste for the quisling mentality that finds such acceptable

    oh my stars and garters….i’ve agreed with Ant g and RedTard both in the same evening…

    isn’t that one of the Signs of the Apocolypse?

    can we expect evangelicals to begin physically disappearing?

    these Questions and more on the next episode of “As the Stomache Churns”

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    If, as has been alleged, the only conversations being listened to were between people in the US and someone overseas, then the ‘legs’ of this issue are non-existent, because those are exactly the kinds of communications the NSA is actually authorized to monitor.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    No, the NSA is authorized to listen within the US, and not between the US and international locations. Do you think Specter and Feingold and the NYT and AP would be making such a fuss if there was no there there?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well, frankly, I’d believe very little that comes from Feingold who I think is basically a shrill and useless hollow shirt. But Specter I at least respect.

    Anyway, if you check out Section 2.4 of Executive Order 12333 which created the NSA, it sure sounds like its mandate prohibits monitoring internal communications, but allows monitoring of communications outside of the US with the cooperation of the CIA.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    The reporting of the story is that there are serious allegations of abuse of statutes limiting the monitoring of communications within the U.S.

    Dave, you really will lose a good degree of ground as any kind of “independent voice” if you insist on dumping on Feingold like that, a decent and honorable and credible Senator who has lots of great things to say and add to many many issues and areas of public policy.

  • G. Oren

    Watching the news cycle through this story, NPR reported that the NSA has a special court to apply for a warrant to eavesdrop on domestic communications, but apparently the NSA was allowed to go around this process (established in the late 70’s) by executive order of the president. If so, this raises a spectre of big brother that must disturb all of us. That NSA’s mandate to monitor communications means that all phone and internet traffic is potentially searchable with no oversight – we can’t be comfortable with that. Linking that to the Patriot Act debate today in the Senate – I think we’re now seeing a more level-headed discussion of what is necessary to balance the needs of homeland security with the needs of free and open society. W, as is his want, fails to grasp the long-term view of the mischief certain parts of the Patriot Act can do in the future in the hands of a government bent on squelching dissent. C-Span is broadcasting a house committe hearing on homeland security and border security, as I’ve said before, our efforts should be more directed to improving our border security and port security. If these people can’t get in and their WMD can’t get in we’ll all be more assured of our homeland security.

  • G. Oren

    BTW, Richard Clark had a fine piece in the Atlantic about the trade-offs between what we’re spending in Iraq and what that money could buy in terms of homeland security. Since we have to acknowledge some economic limitation on all of the things we’d like to do, I think its high time we redirected the “War on Terror” debate back to what we must do to secure the homeland. The administration and its various mouthpieces in congress parrot the same old line about fighting them over there rather than here. Since they may be getting in here without our knowledge and since our action in Iraq serves to recruit more Islamo-fascists to the cause, you have to ask whether we have really lost more ground than we’ve gained from our actions the past three years.

  • gonzo marx

    my understanding of the 70’s NSA statute regarding international communications was that the NSA, via proper channels, could monitor INCOMING communications, and that the FBI handled domestic and outgoing (also with proper review and a Judges permission)

    the 2002 order, signed by King George the Bush, seems to be in violation of both the 4th and 5th Amendments to the Constitution…as do many of the controversial provision in the Patriot Act

    i am slightly encouraged by the Republicans in the Senate who have stood up for Civil Liberties and stopped this blatant abuse of Power which opens the door to a “big brother” style police state in the name of “security”

    what was that Ben Franklin Quote?
    “those who would trade Liberty for Safety deserve neither”

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • Anthony Grande

    No one is trying to take away your liberty Gonzo. I do not see why anyone would want to listen in on your phone if you are just an innocent American citizen minding your own business.

    KNow that the Patriot Act is gone I feel less safe. I am know anticipating another attack shortly.

    On the bright side: Maybe another huge attack with thousands of deaths is what we need to destroy American liberalism.

    On the down side: They would probablly find away to blame Bush if we are attacked again eventhough he did everything he could to keep the Patriot Act.

  • Anthony Grande

    I have a feeling that this whole scandal with Bush was found out along time ago but they were just waiting for the moment to bring it out.

    They found that moment with the success of the Iraqi election the day before. Things are going good in Iraq so they have to overshadow it somehow.

    And with all this didn’t we catch someone trying to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, you really will lose a good degree of ground as any kind of “independent voice” if you insist on dumping on Feingold like that, a decent and honorable and credible Senator who has lots of great things to say and add to many many issues and areas of public policy.

    Sorry, Eric I had a momentary brain fart. I was thinking Dianne Feinstein rather tha Russ Feingold. Feingold isn’t nearly as venal and has some good points, though he’s far from being my favorite democrat.

    Dave

  • MCH

    only momentary?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, momentary, as in not repeated over and over like some peoples criticisms of others based on lack of military service.

    Dave

  • RogerMDillon

    Of course, AG, because the terrorists were just waiting for the Patriot Act to expire before moving in. I hope Osama wasn’t watching CSPAN.

    We stopped the LAX Millenium plot before the Patriot Act, so that cancels out our bridge.

    When he wastes all the resources in Iraq and does nothing to shore up this country’s defenses, why shouldn’t Bush be blamed?

  • JR

    Dave Nalle: I survived when Hoover was having me watched…

    Bullshit. Didn’t happen.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I’m guessing that Mr. Nalle was jesting about Hoover… ? I don’t think he’s even anywhere near the age range where that could have happened.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    You’re right, Eric. I wasn’t really the target of Hoover’s goon squad, but I have been in groups and in vehicles when I was a youngster that were under FBI observation during the Hoover era. And then later I was watched briefly in my own right during the post-Hoover era. Not to mention being microwaved and spied on regularly by the KGB, of course.

    Sounds like time to fit me for a tinfoil hat…

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    “We stopped the LAX Millenium plot before the Patriot Act, so that cancels out our bridge.”

    Oh, but 9/11 happened before we had the Patriot Act, also. That puts us one up, so far.

    The fact is as an American citizen I feel less safe and I now feel violated by our selfish liberal congressmen.

    They only vote against the Patriot Act because it was a Republican idea. If Clinton would have put it up during his presidency it would have had widespread success because Democrats would have voted with the Republicans.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    AG, an honest question: how many hours of talk radio do you listen to each day? What programs do you listen to?

  • joe

    c’mon guys, ya’ll know…bush lied…troops died… A’hem. It’s all soooo simple! Politicans were ALL honest until bush got into office…Newspapers are all about the NEWS, having nothing to do with making money…The fact that most all newpapers used (until very recently) almost exclusively child labor to collect circulation dues should allow a peep-hole into how it all works…TRUST NO ONE!

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    Anthony: As you know, we don’t have the same political or social perspectives, although I am both reassured and a little disturbed that we agree on the death penalty.

    However, if you want to make your points a little more lucidly, for everyone’s benefit, you’re going to have to curb some of that 16 year old enthusiasm of yours and use a little more rational language. “Violated by our selfish liberal congressmen”? What is that, a romantic fantasy?

    I would have thought that you might understand how the Patriot Act was actually limiting freedom and to maintain it would actually hand a victory to any enemies?

    To continually talk in this partisan Rep v Dem language is totally undermining your young credibility too. Nobody, and by extension, no political party is ever right all the time. To reduce one’s political support to the same automatic reaction as your favourite sports team (mine is Manchester United by the way, who are of course the greatest football club ever), is to demean the entire political process.

    Your continual shrill yapping is becoming tiresome to everybody and you continue spraying your views across inappropriate posts.

    Nobody wants you to feel unwelcome here, but there is a “dress code” if you like, and you seem a little under-dressed…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Eric, I read your piece and enjoyed it immensely. From where I sit, it is normal to suspect political leaders of lying. It is normal to suspect something going on that is being hidden from the “suckers” – excuse me, – “citizenry.”

    As has been pointed out in the comments, the NSA reads and listens over OUR shoulders here, whether they do or not in the States. The Shaba”k does too. Ever since the late, unlamented John Mitchell said to the press when he became your attorney general a generation ago, “watch what we do, not what we say,” I’ve tried to follow his advice.

    It strikes me that your country has the problem of a president who would like very much to be dictator. You also have an Arab enemy, but frankly, I think your biggest problem is in the White House.

    You’re fighting a war in the wrong place, against the wrong enemy, and there seems little you guys can do about it.

    The domestic lies tie directly in to the lies about foreign policy, and the two interwoven are making the material out of which American body bags are made. This is truly a shame. As evil as your government is, Americans are a good people.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    OMG Christopher Rose is a Manchester United fan. I might have figured. It’s a FC for leftist swine.

    Dave (Arsenal Fan)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    my understanding of the 70’s NSA statute regarding international communications was that the NSA, via proper channels, could monitor INCOMING communications, and that the FBI handled domestic and outgoing (also with proper review and a Judges permission)

    As I read it there’s nothing about incomming. Once the communication passes outside of US borders it’s fair game whether it’s going in or coming out.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    BTW, Richard Clark had a fine piece in the Atlantic about the trade-offs between what we’re spending in Iraq and what that money could buy in terms of homeland security. Since we have to acknowledge some economic limitation on all of the things we’d like to do, I think its high time we redirected the “War on Terror” debate back to what we must do to secure the homeland

    Did you READ the original article, Oren? This is what we get when we focus on securing the homeland. We get domestic surveillance, checkpoints, national ID cards, loyalty investigations and god knows what other constitutional and civil rights nightmares. I’d gladly spend MORE money in Iraq if it keeps the government distracted from fucking us over even more here at home.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Which is it, Dave? Is this story the “tempest in a teapot” that alleged on this very comments thread a few days ato or are the rights of American citizens being “fucked over” (paraphrasing)? I don’t think you can have it both ways.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Ruvy — What’s the general feeling toward intelligence gathering in Israel, a nation that has never been completely free of the threat of terrorism?

  • Anthony Grande

    Christopher, a do not feel that my freedom is being limited by the Patriot Act because I do not see why the FBI, CIA, or whatever would want to listen in on my phone conversations, I am not a suspected terrorist. If someone is a suspected terrorist then we should listen on the phone conversations and let the truth be told.

    I do feel violated that my fellow American congressmen decided to put politics above our safety.

    ——————————————

    Eric, now you know that a 17 year boy doesn’t have the time to listen to much talk radio. Anyway, Rush Limbaugh and Bill Bennett are on when I am at school (I could listen on my head phones).

    Matt Drudge and Sean Hannity and others share the same beliefs as me but they talk about stuff and ideas I already know and share and it is kind a boring.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    I thought you weren’t 17 until later this month Anthony?

  • Anthony Grande

    Yeah yeah, I know, but don’t I have the right to claim 17? I mean I was 16 almost a year ago and I’ll be 17 next week.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    Dave Nalle: Given that Manchester United is the biggest sports club in the world; most supporters, best football, most profitable and owned by the US Glazer family, to call it a football club for “leftist swine” is as inaccurate as it is unamusing.

    I support the club as I was born and raised in Manchester. If you are interested, you could read a little of what a football club means to people in my tribute to the late, truly great George Best.

    It’s this kind of deep emotional involvement with the clubs and the sport that makes the game so intensely exciting, emotional and symbolic most all the world over – that and football just being the best game ever. It’s also a large part of the reason that insulting people’s football clubs can genuinely and understandably sometimes lead to fighting.

    Family, friendship, regional pride, even religion and politics can all be tangled up in a fan’s relationship with “his/her” club, to such an extent that we fans often forget that the clubs don’t actually belong to us.

    I wonder if some of this same heady brew, suitably adjusted for local “flavor”, runs through George Bush’s veins as he takes the kind of decisions reported by Eric Berlin in this excellent news article I have temporarily diverted but now return to its original theme?

  • RogerMDillon

    “god knows what other constitutional and civil rights nightmares.”

    Would you at least make the effort to be consistent, Nalle? On the BoP NY Times/Bush thread, you have no problem with the erosion of constitutional and civil rights.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Eric,

    Israel has never been free from the threat of annihilation. That has influenced attitudes considerably here.

    Until 12 years ago, there was a basic consensus that the gathering of information could only be a good thing, and the more the better.

    Israelis have lots less privacy in terms of personal data, and there is no written constitution to appeal to.

    Since Oslo, the gathering of data has been directed against observant Jews in an obvious way, and the Jewish section of the Shaba”k has slowly, surely, become feared and hated as the KGB was in the Soviet Union.

    This has been especially true after the murder of Yitzhak Rabin.

    Since the expulsion of the residents of Gush Katif, there has been a sea change, a very subtle one, in the attitude towards the army and the police. Folks are no longer sure it is THEIR army and police anymore.

    For all this, everyone recognizes the need for intelligence gathering. The country remains under threat of annihilation.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Christopher, as someone who spent some of his formative years in London among rabid Aresenal supporters, all I know or care about Manchester United is that they are the enemy and they are inherently evil. I’ll give you that George Best was a fine player, but nothing can redeem Manchester United as a whole when it is so inherently steeped in evil.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Which is it, Dave? Is this story the “tempest in a teapot” that alleged on this very comments thread a few days ato or are the rights of American citizens being “fucked over” (paraphrasing)? I don’t think you can have it both ways.

    Sure I can have it both ways. We’re being fucked over, but this particular sub-issue is a tempest in a teapot. I agree that we’re facing a lot of rights violations from things like the Patriot Act, but I don’t see this particular issue of monitoring the international calls of about 30 suspected terrorists as part of the overall gross violations of everyone’s rights that I’m concerned about. See the difference?

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Would you at least make the effort to be consistent, Nalle? On the BoP NY Times/Bush thread, you have no problem with the erosion of constitutional and civil rights.

    Roger, you seem not to be paying attention here. I have no problem with our government agencies going after specific and identifiable suspects. I have strong objection to treating EVERYONE IN AMERICA as a suspect and carrying out blanket surveillance and data gathering as the Patriot Act allows.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Everyone is a suspect until we find the guilty.

    I truly innocent person with no knowledge of terrorist activity and minds his or her own business like 99.9999999% of Americans would not be bothered or investigated because there is no reason for him or her to be a suspect.

    And if for some fluke reason they suspect me of planning terrorist acts I have no problem with them listening in on my conversations and a black car following me because I have nothing to hide.

    In fact, if I was suspected I would WANT them to listen in on my conversations and follow me around so they can cross my name of the list and them and I both can move on with our lives.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Sure I can have it both ways. We’re being fucked over, but this particular sub-issue is a tempest in a teapot. I agree that we’re facing a lot of rights violations from things like the Patriot Act, but I don’t see this particular issue of monitoring the international calls of about 30 suspected terrorists as part of the overall gross violations of everyone’s rights that I’m concerned about. See the difference?

    I see what you’re trying to say but I disagree on the merits. This is a major story, as evidenced by the blanket coverage on the Sunday morning shows, across the nation’s newspapers, (undoubtedly) cable television, etc. What it may or may not lead to is uncertain, but what is certain is that this administration is stretching presidential powers to and perhaps past its constitutional limits.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Ruvy — Thanks for giving us an Israeli perspective. It seems that matching concerns about privacy and personal liberties with the need for security is common to our two nations.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Anthony, having lived in a country where our conversations were monitored 24/7 and we were regularly watched when we went anywhere I can assure you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Dave

  • http://www.volkskrant.com/weblog/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=1507 Grozdan Popov

    This morning’s Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung ran a first page story about a Lebanese-born German citizen Khaled al Masri, 42, who had a first-hand traumatic experience with the interrogators of the CIA. I am amazed that you do not mention this scandal which shakes Germany. The most influential broadsheet decided to upgrade the mishandling of this individual into an international scandal. The story blew up during the talks between German chancellor Angela merkel and Condoleezza Rice in berlin some ten days ago. TV and other media had begun drumming the affair. After the meeting Condoleezza Rice saidthe US does not practice nor condone torture. Her statement was disqualified as “a flight of fancy”. The same day a civil lawsuit was filed in a district court in Alexandria, Va against former CIA director George Tenet and other officials.

    The first versions of this story claimed that al-Masri was apprehended by the Macedonian police on the border crossing to Bulgaria on or around New Year Eve of 2003/4. The then minister of interior of Macedonia Pavle Trajanov confirmed for Deautsche Welle (official German radio) the story about a request from CIA and boasted that his police was closely co-operating with Langley. pulled a sack over his head and delivered him to the Agency.

    Al-Masri claims to have gone away from home after a family dispute picking up a cheap bus-trip from Stuttgart to Macedonia for a winter vacation. What was so interesting in land-locked Macedonia (absolutely uninviting during that period of the year) is unimportant for the story. As soon as he was in CIA’s hands al-Masri was taken to Afghanistan where he was badly maltreated and abused in every possible way. His ordeal ended when he was dumped a free man (in Albania) with (rumored) $500,000.00 hush-up money. The present German minister of interior Wolfgang Schauble informed the parliament that last May the US ambassador Daniel Coats informed his predecessor Otto Schilly about the mistaken identity error with al-Masri stating that the victim was paid hush-up money. The sum of half a million dollars circulates as the probable amount paid. Otto Schilly was obliged to inform his chancellor Gerhard Schroeder about this.

    Today’s Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung summarizes the turbulence created around al-Masri. Foreign minister Steinmeier (former chief-of-staff of the chancellor) stated that nobody could act to protect the German citizen because nobody knew of al-Masri until the man was released by the Americans. He most vehemently denied all allegations that some ministers of the former government knew of the case and allowed its agencies to cooperate with the CIA in other.

    Now, my point is marginal for your polemic since you discuss a global point from a local point of view. It is NOT the US public which had exploded the question of human liberties but a very, very angry European reaction. It is astonishing that you would not widen the themes you discus and make them more international.

    I definitely admire the personal courage of you guys and galls but stopping the charge of the secret services needs the help of concentrated and prolonged heavy artillery fire: the NYT, le Monde, the Franfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, chancellors, prime-ministers, commissioners of the European Union. The eavesdropping and wiretapping, the “extraordinary rendition” or abduction, coercion, torture and the rest of the illegal arsenal of techniques in the war on terror are labeled unacceptable in Europe. Isolation drives people heady…

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Grozdan — It’s always fantastic to gain perspectives from around the world. I hadn’t heard of Khaled al Masri, for instance, though I did know of all the other news you related from Rice’s recent travels. The U.S. and its media can be quite insular which is why this platform is extraordinary for branching outside for other viewpoints. That particular tale sounds like it’s straight out of a spy film but I suppose it does happen.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    This story was all over the European broadcast and print media last week when Condy swang by on her PR tour. This is what “extraordinary rendition” means in practice…

  • G. Oren

    Dave #72 – from my libertarian roots to yours – I’m not talking about national ID cards – I’m talking about inspecting cargo ships, increasing border security and investigating those who “visit” here.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Grozdan, the Al-Masri incedent has been discussed here before to a limited extent. Here’s the key bit from your description:

    “As soon as he was in CIA’s hands al-Masri was taken to Afghanistan where he was badly maltreated and abused in every possible way”

    That ‘every possible way’ you mention seems to consist mostly of scaring him by wearing hoods, holding him for a long time in a small and dirty cell, and some verbal threats. Even he doesn’t suggest that he was actually tortured, though he does claim that he was ‘kicked and beaten’, though it left him unmarked and unharmed.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dave #72 – from my libertarian roots to yours – I’m not talking about national ID cards – I’m talking about inspecting cargo ships, increasing border security and investigating those who “visit” here.

    All the stuff you mention ought to be a given. National Security 101 stuff. The problem is they’re wasting an awful lot of effort on stuff which ought to be secondary and overlooking the basics. In that environment the distraction of Iraq is the main positive we’ve got going for us.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Dave said: “Anthony, having lived in a country where our conversations were monitored 24/7 and we were regularly watched when we went anywhere I can assure you that you have no idea what you’re talking about”

    Lebanon isn’t the U.S. and over here they have no reason to monitor everyone’s phone calls 24/7, only suspected terrorists.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Anthony — The two beliefs you’ve expressed lately as I understand them, are:

    * You’re okay with the government breaking laws to do what is “right”
    * You’re okay with the government monitoring those suspected of crimes without asking for a warrant… because you feel pretty sure that you’ll personally be left alone

  • G. Oren

    Dave #93 – So we agree that the basics of homeland security are not being properly addressed.

    You know from my previous posts I don’t think the Iraq adventure was necessary, but we have to see it through to the establishment of an effective central government and security force.

  • Anthony Grande

    ” *You’re okay with the government breaking laws to do what is right”

    When did I say this?

    “You’re okay with the government monitoring those suspected of crimes without asking for a warrant… because you feel pretty sure that you’ll personally be left alone”

    I am positve that 99.9999999999999999999999999% of all Americans will be left alone and positive that 100% of innocent Americans, guilty of nothing, will go on with their jobs and families and life just like the government never passed the Patriot Act.

    We are temporarily a country with dangerous enemies that can do a lot of damage so we have the temporary Patriot Act to protect our citizens. Their will be a day in about 2 or 3 years when we won’t have to worry about terrorists with so much effort like now. This is the time when we do not have to renew the Patriot Act and when it is gone nothing will be different.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    AG: Lebanon isn’t the U.S. and over here they have no reason to monitor everyone’s phone calls 24/7, only suspected terrorists.

    Good lord, AG – not Lebanon. They couldn’t monitor their own asses with both hands and wouldn’t want to. I lived for 3 years in the Soviet Union under Brezhnev.

    GO: You know from my previous posts I don’t think the Iraq adventure was necessary, but we have to see it through to the establishment of an effective central government and security force.

    I’m in more or less the same boat, but I think that a reasonable argument can be made for the idea that the war in Iraq draws a lot of terrorist attention away from the US and ties their manpower up fighting pointlessly where they can do us little harm. Which essentially makes the war a cheap and sloppy way to provide homeland security. Imagine if the estimated 3000-10,000 Al Qaeda operating in Iraq and Afghanistan now were at liberty to come over here and cause trouble.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    ” *You’re okay with the government breaking laws to do what is right”

    When did I say this?

    You’ve advanced this position rather consistently over the past several months. There’s nothing I can do to further prove that this is so.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I’m in more or less the same boat, but I think that a reasonable argument can be made for the idea that the war in Iraq draws a lot of terrorist attention away from the US and ties their manpower up fighting pointlessly where thy can do us little harm.

    You can also make a strong case that there’s thousands of terrorists in Iraq whereas there were almost none pre-invasion. It’s been documented, for instance, that al Qaeda uses Iraq as a terrorist training ground before dispatching recruits/trainees elsewhere.

    All of the above makes it even more important to see a successful outcome in Iraq.

  • Anthony Grande

    I do not advocate braking laws. Breaking laws can get dangerous no matter if they are right or wrong.

    I said I appreciated Reagon’s Iran-Contra deal. And this is OK because no one proved that anyone broke any laws.

    Dave, why and how did you move to the Soviet Union?

    And the U.S. is not the Soviet Union and we have no reason to monitor all of our citizens 24/7.

  • gonzo marx

    Ant G sez…
    *I said I appreciated Reagon’s Iran-Contra deal. And this is OK because no one proved that anyone broke any laws.*

    umm,yer factually incorrect…Ollie North pleaded guilty on all counts in exchange for immunity, and Poindexter was convicted and served 1 or 2 years…

    there were others, but those two pop to mind first

    and we still don’t get french benefits

    Excelsior!

  • Bliffle

    AG: “I am positve that 99.9999999999999999999999999% of all Americans will be left alone and positive that 100% of innocent Americans, guilty of nothing, will go on with their jobs and families and life just like the government never passed the Patriot Act.”

    It’s rather sweet to see one so young and innocent project his naive theory on the world.

    I’m not young. If I were pres and had that kind of power I’d use it to (secretly and gleefully) ruin everyone who done me wrong in my long and adventurous life, and I’d also use it to suppress my enemies. But then I’m a vile person. But how would voters know that if I ran for president? In fact, they would have no way to know. So it would be dependent on some kind of oversight to keep me from my hoped-for abusive privilege. Oh, but King George did away with that! How lucky for me!

  • G. Oren

    I know that the administration uses the argument that we are fighting them in Iraq rather than here, but we’re not effectively buttressing homeland security anyway. I tend to agree with Eric that, despite the argument, our presence aggravates the Islamic radicals ability to recruit terrorists from throughout the Muslim world, from whence some will get through – if not already here. But the situation is what it is, we have to see it through in Iraq and do better with homeland security.

    AG, Iran-Contra broke the law with regard to the Boland amendment – which prevented direct American support of rebel forces in Nicaragua. The amendment was repealed around 85 (if memory serves correctly), after which the CIA and the DOD supported the Contras directly. The circumventing of the Boland amendment was part of the purpose of the arms for hostages and money deal with Iran. Its ironic that by the time the Iran-Contra story broke, our policy towards the Contras had changed.

  • G. Oren

    A further search tells me that the Boland amendment was not repealed until after the Iran-Contra story broke in 86.

  • RogerMDillon

    “And with all this didn’t we catch someone trying to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge?”

    Former Congressman Bob Barr on CNN: Well, first of all, or last of all, this so-called plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge was bogus because it had to do with a group of idiots who were planning to dismantle it with blow torches.

    What else you got, AG?

  • Nancy 1

    Lissen, enough idiots with blow torches could possibly dismantle the Brooklyn Bridge in +/- 10,000 years, so it’s a threat justifying whatever laws Dubya sees fit to violate.

    Actually, I feel sorry for any agent of any security agency who’s assigned to listen in to MY phone calls. Doubtless it will be a “punishment assignment” wherein the chief danger will be dying of boredom.

    That said, at the suggestion of Eric The BC owner, I’m changing my designation to Nancy 1, since someone else is also using “Nancy” but it isn’t me. I’m the Nancy from the DC/Balt area. Thanks.

  • Nancy 1

    I changed my mind. I love Bush. He’s a genius.

  • Anthony Grande

    Bliffle said to me: “If I were pres and had that kind of power I’d use it to (secretly and gleefully) ruin everyone who done me wrong in my long and adventurous life, and I’d also use it to suppress my enemies.”

    And this is why you are not president.

    I am sure Bush has a couple enemies here and there but what good would that do? Do to his success in life Bush couldn’t possibly hold any grudges because anyone that he could hold a grudge against is already lower than him.

    And Bliffle, if Bush did do something like this then it would most definately be leaked to the New York Times and we would all know.

    Gonzo and G. Oren, thanks for the information, but why didn’t the president get in any trouble? They couldn’t get nothing on him. And didn’t North and Poindexter get in trouble for something like perjury and not the actual deal?

    Roger, first of all you and I and everyone else should not use a congressman on CNN as a source FOR ANYTHING.

    Second, we have no idea what plots were discovered or dissolved through the Patriot Act because it is all top secret, isn’t it?

  • Anthony Grande

    Nancy 1, why don’t just use your last name or a made up one? Because that 1 next to your name doesn’t look that great.

  • Nancy 1

    The 1 signifies number 1 in the bathroom sense.
    Example:
    “I have to go to the bathroom”
    “Number 1 or Number 2?”

    I am number 1 because I smell like urine.

  • Nancy 1

    It was Eric’s suggestion. However, I’m going to appeal to him to stop this charade with whoever is hijacking my name. I agree, AG, it’s ill-considered. Thanks.

  • Anthony Grande

    The person who is hijacking your name is at My Take on Bad Drivers unless you forgot to add the 1.

    I always thought that there was only one Nancy. I have been arguing that way anyways. Are the one that claims to be a pacifist?

  • Nancy

    That’s me, the original Nancy from the DC area, who is hardly a pacifist. I reverted to my own name & sent Eric an email to have him contact this … person … & straighten them out. Thanks, though. I appreciate your concern & assistance. I don’t know how he’s going to tell, except that I’ve sent him my actual name (which is unique enough that I don’t care to post it online) and email address; maybe he has some way to tell from that? I’m not that proficient when it comes to online webbing, etc.

    It would seem there are at least two now, me & the Pacifist, plus whoever this is that’s using bathroom terminology as (what they consider) a juvenile ha-ha.

    I’m the one who always disagrees w/Dave Nalle about economic conditions, & dislikes BushCo, but still considers themselves a sort of conservative. I’ve been posting for quite some time here on BC.

    I can also spell pretty good, when I’m awake.

  • Grammer Check

    Food is good. Nancy spells well.

  • G. Oren

    AG – We conservatives claimed the Boland Amendment was unconstitutional, since it limted the Prez’s ability to protect and defend, make foreign policy, be commander-in-chief etc… The Reagan administration construed the Boland amendment to apply only to the CIA and not the NSC (clearly circumventing the intent of the amendment). At the time, the left was incensed over its accumulating foreign policy defeats – the nuclear freeze, opposing pershing missiles in Europe, the Grenada action, aid to El Salvador, aid to the Nicaraguan rebels. Using congresses power of the purse, they took the only action they thought they could.

    Reagan’s reputation took a big hit over the affair, the event demonstrated how far removed he was from operational decision-making. He claimed he didn’t know, which IMO, is worse than saying he thought it was legal. On top of which the “arms for hostages” part was extremely unpopular with the public especially as it involved the Iranians – who had kidnapped our embassy personnel in 79. The independent counsel investigation continued after Reagan left office, he was never charged with actually ordering the transactions to take place, or attempting to cover them up. North became something of a hero to the right for challenging Congress reasoning on the boland amendment to begin with, Poindexter had lied to Congress and so was guilty of covering up, but due to the debate about the constitutionality of the boland amendment in the first place, was never convicted of actually breaking that law.

  • Nancy

    That’s interesting; I didn’t realize it went that far back. Bush is talking like it was something passed after 9/11?

  • RogerMDillon

    AG, I saw Bush on CNN. Guess I shouldn’t believe anything he said, according to your, for lack of a better word, logic.

    If it’s all secret, how did you find out about the Brooklyn Bridge? If you don’t think Rove is going to trumpet successes in the war on terror, you really should stop discussing politics and go back to your anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage threads.

    Can’t believe someone else has the name Nancy. How dare they use their name as well.

  • Anthony Grande

    Nancy, are you the same one that is constantly spewing hate my way? Do you recognize my name?

    “AG, I saw Bush on CNN. Guess I shouldn’t believe anything he said, according to your, for lack of a better word, logic.”

    What? Are you 5? The recent Bush speech was live and it was broadcasted all over every news channel. And Bush is the President of the U.S.

    It is just absurd that you would cite a former congressman giving an interview on CNN as a reason to discredit something.

    “If it’s all secret, how did you find out about the Brooklyn Bridge?”

    I thought the Brooklyn Bridge thing was a hoax?

    G. Oren, thanks again. I have read extensively on the Iran-Contra deal and admire Reagon’s work. Reagon knew what was going on, trust me.

  • RogerMDillon

    “I have read extensively on the Iran-Contra deal and admire Reagon’s work. Reagon knew what was going on, trust me.”

    How could you have read extensively yet spell you Reagan’s name wrong at every turn? I don’t think I’m going to trust you.

  • Anthony Grande

    It’s a French name and the French would spell it Reagon. That is where I got confused.

  • gonzo marx

    bullshit Ant…it’s a Dutch name…hence why he had the nickname “Dutch”

    and we still don’t get french benefits

    Excelsior!

  • I’m On Welfare

    I think your parents were confused when you were born. Why did you come out of the brown hole instead of the pink one?

  • RogerMDillon

    Unless you read Iran-Contra books in French or translated from French that excuse doesn’t fly.

    Before the comment nazi shows up, I thought I’m On Welfare had a funny line even if it doesn’t meet the official comment policy.

  • Anthony Grande

    Yeah, your right. Reagan was too much of a great strong willed brave man to have French ancestry. No pun intended.

    I searched and found that the surname Reagon with variations REAGAN and O’Regan all are of Irish/Gaelic decent.

  • Bliffle

    AG: “Yeah, your right. Reagan was too much of a great strong willed brave man to have French ancestry. No pun intended.”

    Hey, take it easy on the French! My wife is French and my Father-in-law was French. He escaped from 3 nazi prison camps, was instrumental in the resistance (my mother-in-law was sought for execution by the nazis) and he got a personally written and signed commendation from General Dwight Eisenhower for his accomplishments.

    En garde, churl! Poltroon! Cretin!

    RR, on the other hand, avoided WW2 (unlike Jimmy Stewart who had to put on weight to get in the fight, all the baseball players, my two brothers, etc.) because, as he said, it would interrupt his movie career. But he did wear his movie military costume during the war until he started to believe he landed at Omaha Beach, which revelation alarmed his European cohorts who knew better.

    You really don’t think before you talk, do you.

  • Bliffle

    Grozdan:

    I watch DW TV twice a day from Germany and I didn’t see all that much play on that story. Maybe I get the overseas version instead of the home consumption version. Oh well.

  • Anthony Grande

    Eh, bless your father-in-law for being brave.

    “En garde, churl! Poltroon! Cretin!”

    Would you be kind enough to translate?

  • http://www.volkskrant.com/weblog/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=1507 Grozdan Popov

    Bliffle, went to Cologne (Koln) over the weekend with my wife to visit a friend, Josif Kurciev, who is a seasoned foreign affairs journalist. He works for the Macedonian program of DW-World. Since I file stories from Hague for them, I tried (unsuccessfully) to push my piece on this Farahnaz Karimi, a Dutch Groen-Links MP for DW-World. My friend said that it was not only marginal (Eric also keeps the story in the fridge) but built on circumstantial elements and personal deductions. This past Saturday 17th december he told me that much more interesting was to apply maximum logic into solving the mystery of Al-Masri’s trip to and arrest in Macedonia.

    Christopher is quite right: the story appeared to have been a top item all over the European broadcast and print media some ten days ago. Most of us have missed it.

    The Macedonian program of DW-World aired a statement by the former minister of interior Pavle Trajanov confirming that his agents have apprehended Al-Masri upon (American) request and delivered him to the CIA. Trajanov, speaking poor English, was so daft as to show off that he approved the clandestine arrest of a German citizen and arranged his immediate delivery to the squad sent by the Agency.

    Eventually, somebody figured out that it will be most disadvantageous for Macedonia (Germany is the Nr.1 net cash contributor to the treasury of the land and takes over the EU presidency in 12 months time) to be mixed in this crap in case the German media blows up the story. Yesterday’s edition of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has three pages about this affair but not one German official mentions the bit involving the Macedonian government in the mess. That is absurd: Trajanov served in a government accused by the present head of state for wire-tapping most of the opposition leaders. That affair helped broke the back of the then ruling VMRO tight-kneated leadership which in turn resulted with total marginalization of the nationalist party. Germany has now sent special advisors to help VMRO recuperate.

  • http://patfish.blogspot.com/ Pat Fish

    Do you think Specter and Feingold and the NYT and AP would be making such a fuss if there was no there there?

    YES!

  • Nancy

    I don’t. That Republican pols (except for the usual rabid Bush lock-steppers) are also alarmed is enough to set bells ringing with me. BushCo is basically claiming they’re above the law – ANY law, including the constitution and/or any checks & balances. Time for a few presidential heads to roll; Dubya has obviously forgotten what he ever knew (if anything) about limitations. Cripes, the stupid bastard really does think he’s God.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Well Patfish, if that’s so, you now have even more figures from both parties speaking out against these actions.

    Even John McCain, on Meet the Press, several times questioned why administration officials didn’t go to the FISA (I believe) court to get warrants for these actions. Instead of following the law, in other words, they chose to ignore it. This, again, is a pattern that Team Bush seems quite fond of.

  • http://www.volkskrant.com/weblog/pub/blogs/blog.php?uid=1507 Grozdan Popov

    @Nancy and nancy 1 (is there a 2?) Thought you might be interested to click here and be gone, for a sec, in the Kickerland. You will witness a most incredible attitude toward personality theft or, worse, misuse. There is this blogger who signs up as Jan-Peter Balkenende (the name and surname of the actual prime-minister of the land, and then places Balkenende photo as if his own, puts the address, the whole lot, plus runs stories as if he is the PM and people here (you can see the thread of to-day, tell me that if the sued – he would become the laughing stock of all The Netherlands.

    Can you imagine that?

    Here I literally see you pulling the hairs off of Nancy 1 (who with that looish “1” obviously declares that she is not you) while here, well, somebody writes for months all sort of crap and unsuspecting people might think they read the real guy’s views on all possible issues. Somebody can assassinate the PM for the words a joker put in the mouth of the PM.

    I mean, chaque est fou a son maniere. Crazy world. There was this guy who posted a friendly message telling me that I should not make a fool of myself suggesting this was not acceptable.

  • Nancy

    *sigh* At the moment, GP, there seems to be only me again. How long that will last I don’t know, altho it’s possible Eric did get after the ‘other’ Nancys for posting under my name.

    I don’t mind other people using “nancy” as part of their signoff names, but since I was the first one to use it, I get to use it by itself, unadorned (the “1” was a bad decision by me to use Eric’s suggestion; maybe he was joking?), and aftercomers are supposed to use “nancy” + some other identifier, is my understanding of webuse of names. Also, that it is verboten to post under another’s name.

    I play by the rules, I expect others to do so. Obviously, they don’t.

    But thanks for the consolation; I suppose it could be worse….?

  • ss

    Unfortunately, the NSA is all we have to keep al-Queda (or it’s cousins) from developing effective intelligence gathering and logistical capabilities. al-Queda has proven it can deliver 1-3 suicide bombers a day, but, as practically all of them strike in Iraq, al-Queda has also demonstrated it does not currently have the ability to place people and material at any target, anytime, anywhere in the world. As no one has successfully infiltrated these organizations, ‘eavesdropping’ (and the fact that these terrorists organizations are basicly amatuers) are the only things preventing them from doing so.
    With that said, I do NOT have the logical schism that allows conservatives to always assume that the government only wants more power for nefarious reasons; unless the government says ‘national security’, at which point, according to conservatives, the government is only able to act honorably and in the best interest of all Americans.
    In fact I believe it’s the opposite, I think our government behaves most honorably towards it’s own citizens and is far less noble with the rest of the world. The greatest threat, then, to our freedom would be if the government started treating us the way they treat others not born here.

    So how about a comprimise. The NSA can spy, here and abroad, and, in cases where the threat is immediate, can do so without court order. However, every case where the NSA chooses to spy without court order must be justified to an oversight committee with ‘civilian’, nonpartisan representation as well as partisan representation shifted towards whichever party does not currently boast a commander-in-chief.

  • Nancy

    My question is, if they’re so damned good at spying, and so damned essential to our security & Dubya’s “intelligence” (or lack thereof), then why didn’t he pay any attention to their reports pre-9/11? As usual, his arguments are specious & too little, too late.

  • ss

    I’m just saying the key is oversight, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water…
    I didn’t mean support or defend the President.
    He’s done a horrible job and only the people who voted for him claim otherwise.
    He’s also used and abused the CIA, and alot of people have left the agency as a result.
    And I’m not saying the intelligence community is perfect evn when they get an Administration that listens less selectively and to better effect.
    Still, it’s the President and the pols who should be restricted in their potential abuse of the intelligence community’s capabilities.
    And these restrictions should apply both to Americans and to non-citizens, given that more leeway has to be given in the case of non citizens.

  • tommyd

    9/11 was an inside job. Muslims had nothing to do with it. Like previous US administrations, a catalytic event is needed to advance the Empire and the wealth of weapon makers who are connected to the rulers of the Empire. PNAC writers, in the mid ’90’s, openly pined for a “New Pearl Harbor” to kick start their new wars and a few years later when they were in the Bush Regime, they got their wish. Amazing coincidence?

    Let’s take a walk through history, shall we:

    1865: “Saint” Abraham Linclon jails dissident reporters for their writings about the Civil War. Lincoln’s War on the South creates riots and extra-judiciary killings, and obliterates Constitutional “states rights”. Lincoln becomes the first US Dictator of a burgeoning Empire.

    1898: The USS Maine “blows up” in Havana, blamed on Spain, US aquires Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines after defeating Spain. 100’s of 1000’s are killed. Newspaper magnate tells his men in Havana, “you supply the pictures, I’ll supply the war”.

    1917: The Lusitania is blown up by Germans. Ship was carrying US made weapons en route to England in order to prolong the war to enrich central bankers in the US and England. US claims that the Lusitania was carrying innocent passengers. Woodrow Wilson is forced, by the hand of the media to join the war on the side of England instead of entering into peace negotiations with Germany. The seeds of WWII were sown right there and then. After the illegal Federal Reserve is instituted in 1913 followed WWI followed by the Great Depression.

    1941: Pearl Harbor attacks are widely believed to have been allowed to happen by FDR & Co, although there was plenty of evidence that Japanese fleets were amassing not so far away from Hawaii. Documents reveal that US military code breakers intercepted Japanese transmissions and knew their positions. They were ignored. FDR in a speech a few months before Dec 7th said that he would do everything in his power to keep US boys out of Europe and Asia’s wars. WWII was the death knell for Western Civilization.

    1964: Gulf of Tonkin, Vietnam. Allegedly the US navy was “attacked” by North Vietnamese giving LBJ, like George Bush today, dictatorial powers to wage a war over specious circumstances which ended up causing unimaginable, massive death and destruction, which in fact, the United States has still not come to grips with. Vietnam War obliterated Constitutional government in the US and divided the country.

    1991: Gulf War I. US Envoy April Glaspie tells Saddam Hussein that the US “doesn’t want involvement in Arab-Arab conflicts”. Saddam subsequently invades Kuwait, who are sideways drilling into Iraqi oilfields. George Bush I send US forces and coalition to kick out Saddam’s forces from Kuwait. Sanctions against Iraq after the war led by the US end up killing 500,000 Iraqi children which US Sec. of State Madeline Albright claims “was worth it”.

    In other countries:

    The Reichstag Fire in Germany gave Hitler full dictatorial powers to suspend civil liberties and create a totalitarian fascist state. Exploiting the fear of his people, and telling them that they’re under attack (like George Bush does today) launches an aggressive war against Poland. WWII is begun.

    1967: Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty off the coast of Egypt killing scores of American sailors. Incident was covered up, since the ship didn’t sink, many US sailors were able to ID the attacking planes as Israeli. Israel was planning to blame the incident on Egypt causing the US to join Israel in fighting the hated Egyptians.

    1979: Soviet Union invades Afghanistan who are seen as a threat to the Soviet state. Soviet Union fights US supported Afghan rebels for 10 years. Unable to achieve victory, the USSR withdraws in defeat and the Soviet Empire collapses soon after. US CIA operative,Osama Bin Laden, guerilla fighter extraordinaire, becomes the new boogeyman extraordinaire for the USA. His name is equivalent to “Goldstein” in Orwell’s classic book 1984.

    Class dismissed.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Unfortunately Tommy, your history lesson doesn’t do a whole lot to inform the present.

    Do you really think that the U.S. government is capable of orchestrating and then getting away with something like 9/11?

    Look at the government’s response to Katrina!

    I think you place too much faith in what the government is capable of.

    There’s a whole moral component here that I haven’t yet mentioned. Do I think that President Bush cares about some interest groups and big money friends and connections to the expense of the wider public? Absolutely. Do I disagree with many of his administration’s policy decisions? Ditto.

    But I don’t think that they’re evil or evil-intentioned. I think that let’s them off the hook, actually, that level of demonization.

    Let’s hold our leaders responsible for things that they’ve actually done (or not done).

  • ss

    Well, I’m going to go ahead and stick with the crazy theories the Abe Lincoln was right and the Confederacy was wrong AND that 9/11 was the work of al-Queda.
    It’s a shame you went overboard with the wild conspiracy theories, TD, because you did sight some interesting examples of the public being manipulated and doing some manipulating, of the press being manipulated and doing some manipulating, of politicians manipulating the public one minute then caving into angry demands and deluding themselves with altruistic visions when it goes awry, of countries trying to manipulate each other…
    All those things were in play post 9/11, just not in the neat little package that matched exactly with your preconcieved conspiratorial viewpoint.

  • I’m On Welfare

    Eric, well said sir!
    Are you sure they’re not evil. I’ve heard Dick Cheney does indeed have horns. He grinds them down before he comes out of his lair.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Tommy,

    A shame you don’t have a URL listed. Check mine out for an e-mail address. This is worth pursuing off line. You and I agree on a lot more than you realize.

  • I’m On Welfare

    I think Ruvy has a crush!!!
    That was a booty call if I’ve ever heard one.

  • Nancy

    I have it on good authority that Cheney orders custom patent-leather cloven-hoofed loafers from London.

  • I’m On Welfare

    Good One!

  • tommyd

    Thank you all. Ruvy, I emailed you in order to pursue further discussions.

    Eric, I think my simplfied synopsis of history is pertinent to present day issues of war, spying and suspension of Constitutional rights. The Bush Regime, imo, is not doing anything that hasn’t been done before, except that BushCo is obviously more open about their deeds along with today’s availability of instant news and discussion via the internet.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Tommy, I absolutely agree that issues of war and peace, personal freedoms, and constitutional rights must be discussed and hashed out and decisions of the administration debated, etc. But that’s still a galaxy away from accusing our own government of flying planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and Pennsylvania soil.

  • tommyd

    Personally, I don’t believe the official 9/11 story because the US government has so greatly benefited from those events. “Everything changed on 9/11″ is their rallying call. “Americans must be willing to give up personal liberties in the name of security because of 9/11″, “What’s wrong with a little spying…what, are you on the side of the terrorists?”, “War on Iraq is good, they killed 3000 of our people on 9/11, damn Iraqis”, “9/11 made quaint the US Constitution and the Geneva conventions”, etc, etc, etc.

    Who benefited from 9/11? Why so many unanswered questions about that day?

    “Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither”-Benjamin Franklin

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Well, even if you take all of those results as “truths,” those facts don’t lead us to build a case for the accusations you’re making… In other words, without a shred of proof, you’re not going to be credible getting anywhere near such an astounding belief.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Unfortunately Tommy, your history lesson doesn’t do a whole lot to inform the present.

    Do you really think that the U.S. government is capable of orchestrating and then getting away with something like 9/11?

    Look at the government’s response to Katrina!

    I think you place too much faith in what the government is capable of.

    It’s ironic that the ones who have faith in the effectiveness of government are the ones who fear it the most.

    I don’t fear our government because I know enough about how it works to realize that incompetence and inefficiency are our greatest protectors.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    I don’t see it from that cynical angle. I think I have some faith in our open and free society. And with that comes the fact that too many people would see the green at the end of a book deal and media circuit! But, really, I think in the end most people at least try to give a damn, when human frailties don’t get in the way of ourselves.

    I actually believe in the power of government to do good. It just so happens that getting this to happen is really really hard and sometimes takes some luck to boot.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I think you just explained why you’re still a liberal, Eric. When you start to lose that faith in government you start to look for a political philosophy which sees checking the power of government to be tyrranical as a high priority.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Well, in that sense (as well as in some others) Bush has really flipped the scales int that he’s both expanded the scope and size of the federal government while at the same time stretching the limits of presidential power at a rate unseen since Watergate.

    In any event, I see myself more as a centrist than as a liberal. My “center-left” tag on the In the Middle columns likely just about gets it right.

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez…
    *When you start to lose that faith in government you start to look for a political philosophy which sees checking the power of government to be tyrranical as a high priority.*

    like this Administration is about “checking the power of government”

    i just had to clean orange soda off my Monitaur after reading this one

    Irony = any Bush supporter talking about “checking the power of government” and still standing up for the one Party GOP rule and what they have wrought in the last 5 years

    Excelsior!

  • Bliffle

    Dave N: “… When faced with two possibilities, neither of them supported by anything except statements from two opposing sides I tend to believe the scenario in which America did the right thing until I receive proof to the contrary. Do you do the opposite, and if so, why?”

    Well, actually, I tend to believe whoever has the best record of truthfullness and good decision making. Isn’t that what most people do?

  • Nancy

    Do I believe our government would be so evil to be willing to sacrifice/slaughter 3,000+ American lives? Absolutely I do. They certainly haven’t hestitated to sacrifice 2500+ American lives in Iraq, have they? And for what? To “Liberate” Iraq? To bring Iraqis democracy (American style, under the guidance/aegis of the good ol’ GOP/BushCo Big Brother eye)? Bullshit. US personnel are being slaughtered in Iraq for the sake of Halliburton/Bechtel/etc. profits. And yes, I think Cheney, Wolfowitz, & Rumsfield at the very least – and most likely Dubya too – wouldn’t think twice or lose one second of sleep over the deaths of American citizens or military as long as they attain their goals. These people put on a good show, but they’re freakin’ psychopaths, as they’ve demonstrated amply by their past actions, time & time & time again. What the hell more will it take for everyone to recognize what kind of monsters they are, that are running this administration?

    I note with interest that the US government may be incompetent when it comes to safeguarding and/or coming to the aid of its own, but when it comes to dirty tricks, sabotage, etc. they have a history of remarkable efficiency & skill.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Nancy, while I’m very far from being one of Bush’s biggest fans, I have to respectfully disagree that the United States government would (or could) murder thousands of its own citizens for “profit.”

    I also must refer back to my earlier comment about the danger of rashly demonizing the other side to such an extent. I really think it’s counter-productive.

  • Nancy

    What ‘other side’? I think both sides would do it, altho perhaps the GOP is a little more ready, being more arrogant, than the Dems. It entirely depends on their goals. But I note that both sides had their hands out to Abramoff & Co. A plague on both those houses!

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    The other side is meant as whatever you consider your political oppposition to be.

    If you really believe both political parties capable of mass murder, where does that leave you? Wouldn’t you not want to live in a country like that? I’m not trying to say “love it or leave it” or anything like that, but I know I wouldn’t to be associated with such a nation.

    Personally, I still believe that the US is a great place and a potential force for great good. It’s just got lots and lots of problems… just like everyplace else!

  • Nancy

    I think the nebulous entity known as “The Government” aka “The Administration” aka whoever is currently running things at the top, is comprised of individuals sufficiently ruthless, selfish, self-centered, and psychotic enough to not let any considerations for other, “lesser” humans get in the way of whatever private plans they have either for self-aggrandizement, power grabs, enrichment of selves or buddies, etc. The very rich & powerful, who are the class who fill these positions (because no one else can afford to) are at the top precisely because they don’t hesitate to destroy any and all opposition, even if it’s their own party, viz. Bush’s lies about McCain in 2000. The only persons they recognize as “human” are their fellow very rich & powerfuls; the rest of us are merely fodder for their plans, and I state with some certainty that they regard wasting us as being on a par with killing dogs or cats: regrettable, but necessary. Tch tch tch.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    You’re certainly entitled to that opinion, Nancy, but I must refer you to my previous question: if you feel like fodder that may be disposed of at any time, why stay? And if you do stay, what do you do about it?

    I suppose, really, your political philosophy is an exaggerated version of a populist’s i.e. The People versus The Powerful.

  • No Longer On Welfare

    How did this dullard become president? He reminds you of the kid in elementary school that ate the paste. I couldn’t imagine this dimwit balancing his checkbook let alone the federal budget. Does anyone else feel like you’re in 8th grade public speaking everytime he gives a speech?

    There are people in this country that refuse to open their eyes to the truth of what this administration is doing. If Bush raped their mother they would blame it on what she was wearing. They treat him like the retarded kid in gym class, just let him swing till he hits the ball. This goofy bastard struck out a long time ago. Someone call him out so we can finish the game.

    [Deleted. As you seem to want to stick around, this being your 83rd comment, maybe you should check out the BlogCritics’ Official Comments Policy. Thanks. Comments Editor.]

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    People have underestimated Bush (or misunderestimated) his entire life. No, he’s not a great speaker and I disagree with him on a whole range of issues, but he’s a very very shrewd politician. I think pulling out of 2005 not in a tailspin is testimony to that at least.

    So I think Bush and present ruling elite are magical, world-class politicians and pretty crummy at actually governing the country.

  • Nancy

    Eric – yes. NLOW – if you were the person formerly writing as being on welfare, congrats on getting off it, supposing that means you have been able to land a nice job. Best of luck & seasons’ greetings.

  • JR

    I don’t think people have underestimated Bush, I think people overestimate the degree to which success depends on merit.

  • No Longer On Welfare

    If they are magical politicians than Karl Rove is VOLD3MORT.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Political success, I suppose you mean. And in politics that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy: the people really do get what they deserve.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Wouldn’t Rove be more like Wormtongue?

  • No Longer On Welfare

    Yes Nancy, I recently landed a wonderful job.
    The Republican party hired me to punch infants in the stomach.

  • Nancy

    Oh.

  • Nancy

    Well, I was happy for you for a few minutes, anyway. Sorry.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    *When you start to lose that faith in government you start to look for a political philosophy which sees checking the power of government to be tyrranical as a high priority.*

    like this Administration is about “checking the power of government”

    Compare the excesses of Bush to the excesses of FDR in respond to similar threats. Still think Bush is going overboard?

    Irony = any Bush supporter talking about “checking the power of government” and still standing up for the one Party GOP rule and what they have wrought in the last 5 years

    I think that the mistakes Bush has made will help clarify things for the GOP and push them in a better direction. Certainly it looks like the religious right is being seriously marginalized, and that’s a good start.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez…
    *Compare the excesses of Bush to the excesses of FDR in respond to similar threats. Still think Bush is going overboard?*

    ummm…fuck yes

    ya see, FDR had himself an real live, declared by Congress, Act of War

    Bush does not…call anything ya want a “war”…hell, i declare i am at war with Luxembourg..and since i am an american, therefore America is at war with Luxembourg…using my powers as the guy that said ti first, i am going to violate the Constitution as much as i like to protect us against the insidious Luxembourgian Menace…raise the Alert status to Mauve!!

    that help ya see the difference here?

    Dave sez…
    *I think that the mistakes Bush has made will help clarify things for the GOP and push them in a better direction.*

    now we see the new spin from the GOP…start to distance themselves ( on the surface at least) from the NeoCon/Rovian Agenda

    and why would they do that, you ask?

    cuz November 2006 is coming real soon, and those leeches don’t want to lose their cushy porkfest gigs…if they did, they woudl have to move their offices to K street…and with Abramhoff having those silly legal problems, jobs ain’t as easy as they used to be

    Excelsior!

  • cam

    I guess it wouldnt suprise you then that Clinton did the same exact thing. What Bush did was necessary. He wasn’t spying on your Aunt Sue or the school teacher down the street. He had wire taps placed only on suspects who were almost beyond a doubt linked to terror in one way or another. These calls were placed overseas most likely to other terror groups. He re-issued the order 30 times and each time had lawyers to check to see if it was legal. It was not only legal but it was necessary because of reporters like those in the NY Times who recieve stories such as these who would rather place America at risk by disrupting anti-terror operations than keep America safe all for the purpose of making Bush look bad. They had this story for over a year before they released it and it just happend to come out when Bush’s approval ratings are going up.

  • anti-crazyliberalhippies

    How did this dullard become president? He reminds you of the kid in elementary school that ate the paste. I couldn’t imagine this dimwit balancing his checkbook let alone the federal budget. Does anyone else feel like you’re in 8th grade public speaking everytime he gives a speech?

    “There are people in this country that refuse to open their eyes to the truth of what this administration is doing. If Bush raped their mother they would blame it on what she was wearing. They treat him like the retarded kid in gym class, just let him swing till he hits the ball. This goofy bastard struck out a long time ago. Someone call him out so we can finish the game.”
    This is the most idiotic comment I have ever seen. Why is it that you criticize Bush for being stupid but you never mention any policies that you would introduce to replace his or suggestt anything beneficial. All you can do is sling mud and compare him to “retarded” people. If Bush is so dumb how did he manage to win the election. Is Bush dumb or is John Kerry even dumber for losing the election?

  • gonzo marx

    anti sez…
    *Is Bush dumb or is John Kerry even dumber for losing the election?*

    2 word answer…Karl Rove…you figure it out

    and for cam in comment #174…yer just out and out mistaken…check the news in the last 24 hours?…like Associated Press or Reuters?

    the NSA has admitted to domestic tapping with no warrant, the Bush press conferences on the 16th and 17th contradict each other…more flip flops there than a beach in Jersey…there’s more..but let’s just say…go and look for yourself…your Reality Check has just been cashed

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    Dave – I agree with you here. The GOP is much chastened by the excesses of W and Co. My hope is that a punched out GOP will find a center of gravity more akin to traditional GOP concerns. The religous right may take credit for W’s victory in 04, but they will have the justices they’ve wanted for so long, and the agenda for 06 and 08 will be more friendly to economic conservatives.

    As to your comment in #150 – the incompetence of government is indeed sometimes a great comfort, except when we really need it to act competently. W’s over-reach with NSA probably is minimal in comparison to the rampant wire-tapping etc.. of much of the cold-war period (prior to the denuding of the intelligence agencies in the mid 70’s). I am not sanguine about this over-reaching because I see it as a bad sign. If we acquiesce to this end-run of the FISA provisions by accepting W’s assurances of security, then we begin to slide down a slippery slope of trading liberty. The upshot may come some years hence when the definition of an enemy may have changed to include other religous groups or political groups unpleasing to the powers that be, and, of course, patriotism and security will be the main defenses.

  • gonzo marx

    decent points G Oren

    might i add a major concern…in the Patriot act, there are provisions against domestic “lone wolf terrorists”

    meaning, that ANYONE the Administration merely CLAIMS to be such can be tapped, incarcerated, and held down in GITMO without Due Process

    how can any real Conservative stand for such trampling of the Bill of Rights?

    how can those that distrust “government” so much, allow the erosion and assault on our Rights just because some politician “assures” us it’s ok?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    ya see, FDR had himself an real live, declared by Congress, Act of War

    I agree that a declaration of war would be nice, but you can’t really declare war on a concept like terrorism. The crisis is no less real, however.

    Bush does not…call anything ya want a “war”…hell, i declare i am at war with Luxembourg..and since i am an american, therefore America is at war with Luxembourg…using my powers as the guy that said ti first, i am going to violate the Constitution as much as i like to protect us against the insidious Luxembourgian Menace…raise the Alert status to Mauve!!

    that help ya see the difference here?

    No, you’re just being silly.

    Dave sez…
    *I think that the mistakes Bush has made will help clarify things for the GOP and push them in a better direction.*

    now we see the new spin from the GOP…start to distance themselves ( on the surface at least) from the NeoCon/Rovian Agenda

    Plenty of people in the GOP have been distant from the Neocons from the very beginning. Some of us don’t like the idea of a bunch of imperialist lefties invading the party in the first place.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    meaning, that ANYONE the Administration merely CLAIMS to be such can be tapped, incarcerated, and held down in GITMO without Due Process

    Can you name for me one US citizen arrested in the US and sent to GITMO and held there without due process? You can’t, because even the excesses of the patriot act don’t include depriving US citizens of basic constitutional rights to that degree.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez…
    *Plenty of people in the GOP have been distant from the Neocons from the very beginning.*

    really? the fucking voting record for the last 5 years disagrees with your faulty assertation

    nice try tho

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    Gonzo brings up a good point, in his unique style. Doesn’t the War on Terror (whatever it is)provide opportunity for painting any menace (real or imagined) as a threat requiring the executive to exercise his perogatives as commander-in-chief to act with little or no oversight? Isn’t that the reason why we have checks and balances in the first place, so we’re not dependent on the word of our leaders as to what they are up to?

  • gonzo marx

    Dave sez…
    *Can you name for me one US citizen arrested in the US and sent to GITMO and held there without due process? *

    oh?..howabout we can’t name folks cuz there has been NO oversight and we have no fucking clue who has been taken where among the “black sites” ?

    since we are just now learning details about the NSA’s snooping operations (my favorite is an NSA expert that claims many of the tapes have not even been translated from Arabic/Farsi)how the hell can we know about those covert operations and their sites

    even if not a single person has been treated such, the very fact that the Patriot Act makes it even remotely fucking possible is enough reason to look over this piece of shit legislation carefully and fix what needs to be corrected, and then keep what can be useful

    as G. Oren says above…*Isn’t that the reason why we have checks and balances in the first place, so we’re not dependent on the word of our leaders as to what they are up to?*

    Quoted for Truth

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    You guys type faster than I do! My response (#182) was to Gonzo’s #173, then he makes my point in #178.

    Dave is correct in #180 – the neo-jacobins are late comers to the conservative party – they’ve managed to infiltrate most of the conservative think tanks and spread their doctrine of pax americana. This is very different from the cold war alliance among conservatives that resisted communism across the ideological spectrum.

  • gonzo marx

    G. Oren…

    i understand, and it is NOT what is now known as paleo-cons i usually have a problem with..i define them as the Adlai Stevenson/William Buckley/George Will types…i may disagree smoetimes, but i trust that they are ethically consistant and are operating from a set of Ideals for our country, and then work outwards from those core beliefs

    this is as opposed to the NeoCons and TheoCons who have taken over the GOP since 94

    both scare the living shit out of me..PNAC.org is the only website i have ever found scarier than theyrule.net

    you look at the signatories wishing for a “new Pearl Harbor” so they can instigate their vision for american imperialism, remember their HIstory and the founding philosophy of Strauss..and note how many Straussian Apostles and Disciples are/have been in this Administration

    well, that kinda craziness is enough to pucker anybody’s sphincter in a vain attempt to avoid the metaphysical sodomy those bastards have been performing on our Nation for the last 5 years

    now… this has left me with very fucking few to Respect in today’s GOP…and none of them are in actual Power in our government at the moment

    i will, however, be waiting to see which ones stand up against this current round of revelations

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    Gonzo – You are correct about the Straussians. Wolfowitz et al are essentially leftist with a bent toward Machiavellian manipulation – in my humble opinion. Strauss made some good distinctions between ancients and moderns – the ancients being good, the moderns being bad – the moderns start with Machiavelli. His disciples have, in some ways, turned some of his concepts on their head.

    I’ll check out this PNAC.org

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Frankly guys, after 186 comments, one of the conclusions you might want to reach is that the amendment preventing a president from running for more than two terms was something of a mistake.

    George Bush is an idiot, unlike his daddy, and appears to see the world through black and white lenses only – kind of like some teenagers I know.

    The problem here is that he fooled you Yanks into electing him for a second term and now he doesn’t have to answer to any of you. So now you’re all stuck with his lousy internal policies, his attempts to steal your personal liberties and his tendency to spill your blood in wars that don’t profit you. And you can’t get rid of him till 20 January 2009.

    You could have had Clinton for a third term. As a president of your country, he was not that bad. You probably would have had something like 9/11, but Clinton might have made it smell a little better in terms of not looking like a Saudi puppet. You can practically see the strings on Bush’s shoulders. Man, is that guy stupid.

    Of course, without that amendment, you could Bush for a third term, too. Doesn’t THAT sound appetizing?

    I would complain, but whoever is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations will follow the same anti-Israel policy Bush does. Clinton is a member, Bush daddy is a member, Gore is a member, Bush junior is a member and Kerry is a member. Reagan, interestingly enough, was not, though just about everyone surrounding him was.

    So in effect, whoever you elect is my enemy. A government infested by the CFR is my enemy, and your government is infested like a cockroach filled house in New Orleans (I’ve seen the buggers meself – I know). They will all follow the CFR playbook on Israel, which is to weaken and destroy it, erasing a ‘historical mistake’. That is one of the reasons my posts seem so anti-American.

    I’m outta here. I have to go MC Barry Chamish at the Israel Center, where he will be explaining what the Vatican REALLY wants in Israel. You never know what these red-hads have hidden under their cassocks….

  • G. Oren

    For all his conspiratorial bluster about the CFR – surprised he doesn’t mention the trilateral commission, the queen of England, freemasons and turkish drug dealers ala Lyndon LaRouche and the John Birch Society – Ruvy makes a decent point about the XXII amendment. The postwar GOP aimed to curb the rise of another FDR and shot popular soveriegnty.

  • Bliffle

    Dave: “Plenty of people in the GOP have been distant from the Neocons from the very beginning. Some of us don’t like the idea of a bunch of imperialist lefties invading the party in the first place.”

    It’s no secret that the old one-world (then leftist, for convenience) imperialists who saw their ascendancy coming thru International Communism and the UN were frustrated by the collapse of the soviets and turned their attention to the handiest potential imperialist vehicle, i.e., the US. It’s no secret that they elbowed their way into power by pushing aside trad conservatives in their pursuit of what amounts to a neo-soviet empire. It shows in their ruthless pursuit of power, just like the old power struggles in Soviet Russia.

    The theocon/neocon cabal succeeded in ‘marginalizing’ (which, I guess, means pushing people out of power who don’t embrace the cabal but have nowhere else to go and vote) trad conservatives like mois. If you change your political thinking from parties to policies you can solve the problem. But it’s hard for many people since you must give up Hero Worship. In fact, the whole idea of Heroes, the political kind, anyhow is archaic. Any hero you might perceive has a short shelf life, and they don’t deserve power for merely being heroic. Hell, the VA hospitals are full of Real Heroes and we don’t give them any special power. Also, changing from parties to policies takes a lot of study (you have to actually study the issues, not just embrace the canned rationalizations of your Political Heroes, and that’s hard work and it’s difficult to confront and defeat your own prejudices).

    In that context one must decide, for example, whether Iraq is really important to one, or whether one thinks it’s important because it’s important to Hero Bush and it’s important to help defeat his enemies. Somehow, ones actual interest gets lost in all the symbolism and the proxy battles. Almost as if it were designed to confuse. Enough distractions and you lose sight of your own goals.

  • Back On Welfare

    Oren you forgot a few:
    The queen. The vatican. The Getty’s. The Rothschilds. AND Colonel Sanders before he went heads up! Oh, I hated the Colonel with his wee BEADY eyes! and that smug look on his face, ‘Oh! You’re gonna buy my chicken, OHHH!”
    Why the Colonol?
    Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly, smart ass!”

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “For all his conspiratorial bluster about the CFR – surprised he doesn’t mention the trilateral commission, the queen of England, freemasons…”

    Thanks for allowing my point on the 22nd amendment. It ain’t my job to teach you guys history, though. If you took the trouble to read who set up the Council of Foreign Relations, and why, you’d comprehend there is no conspiracy theory – just a think tank designed to make sure that certain businessmen didn’t get end runned by the “will of the people” again.

  • gonzo marx

    Ruvy…i’ve been meaning to Ask you…

    in another Thread you talked a bit about the Sanhedrin, and that the “new” council would/should be taking over interperting rabbinical law (if i understood correctly) and that this should/would supercede the secular judiciary in Israel

    do i understand that right?

    the second half is to ask you feelings/beliefs about th al Asra Mosque, and if you believe it needs to be destroyed so that the Temple can be rebuilt where it shoudl be and thus usher in the Messianic age

    i’m personally very curious as to your take on these, you being in Israel and all, as well as your history of being straightforward and outspoken in your belief system…

    thanks…

    Excelsior!

  • gonzo marx

    up above Mr Nalle sez…
    *Can you name for me one US citizen arrested in the US and sent to GITMO and held there without due process? You can’t, because even the excesses of the patriot act don’t include depriving US citizens of basic constitutional rights to that degree.*

    and we have a winner( with the exception of the GITMO) Jose Padilla…held without due process for over 3 years…

    read it here…

    THIS kind of case is EXACTLY why every american should be concerned and screaming their heads off

    that example help you out , Mr Nalle?

    Excelsior!

    Jose Padilla

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So that would be a ‘no’ then.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Wasn’t Padilla the one that was training with Al Queda?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gonzo, I don’t mean to hijack the thread with irelevancies, but since you ask…

    Let’s deal with the Temple Mount and the Al Aqsa Mosque first. A short stroll through history.

    The Temple of Hordos, whom you know as Herod, was no where near as high as the Temple Mount is now. After the Romans destroyed the Temple, and after Constantine declared Christianity one of the official religions of his empire, the Christians got busy with the idea of totally discrediting the Jews and “their” law, so as to put forth a “new” law coming forth from Zion.

    One of the things they did was to make the Temple Mount a garbage dump. When the Moslems conquered the city, they erected the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Mount and smoothed out the garbage dump that had accumulated over several hundred years.

    In practical terms, this means that one good shake – one good earthquake – and the whole Temple Mount comes down like the garbage dump it is. So, there is no need to destroy the Mosque. G-d will do the job for us. This city is due for a nasty earthquake, and when it hits, it will do the job. Fault lines run under the Temple Mount.

    That is not a comforting thought for me, by the way. The same fault lines running under the Temple Mount run under my neighborhood.

    This earthquake is foretold in prophecy.

    This also means that one of the nightmares of trhe Jewish section of the Shaba”k (the secret police)- that some nut Jew will blow up the Al Aqsa Mosque – is a product of their own fevered imagination, and a useful tool to try to suppress Jewish nationalists here.

    Now lets get to the Sanhedrin and the issues of who judges what here.

    Presently, there are two judicial systems. The judicial system of the State, and the judicial courts of the various religions. This concept is a holdover from the Ottoman Empire. Personal status issues – divorce, marriage, inheritances and the like – are handled by the religious courts. Everything else is handled by the civil courts of the State of Israel.

    The Jewish religious courts are part and parcel of what is known as the Rabbinút. This is a group of rabbis and their clerks who administer issues of personal status law here.

    Now, the structural problem in Judaism is that if there is a messianic state, with a Temple and a priesthood and a Sanhedrin, the rabbis get to be out of a job. Think about those rabbis in the States with their $150,000 year salaries all out of work because there is a Temple in Jerusalem. They don’t like that idea. And neither do the rabbis here. Nobody likes his rice bowl tipped over.

    So in order to get a Sanhedrin the power it is supposed to have, to rule the country as it should be ruled, you need an earthquake. The same one I mentioned above in connection with the Temple Mount.

    This country is just not ready to handle the stuff the Bible prophesises – in fact, it is not ready to handle a really serious 7 quake on the Richter scale. So when that quake hits, and it will, the government will collapse – along with the Rabbinút and the rabbinical authority structure that has been holding Judaism together for 1,500 years, but which has also been strangling it to death.

    You’re a sharp dude. You can carry the inferences from there.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    *Plenty of people in the GOP have been distant from the Neocons from the very beginning.*

    really? the fucking voting record for the last 5 years disagrees with your faulty assertation

    What votes in congress have in any way supported the Neocon agenda except the decision to go to war in Iraq which most of the democrats signed off on too? You seem to be falling into the popular fallacy of using the term ‘neocon’ for anyone who you don’t agree with. It’s not accurate. The Neocons have a very specific foreign policy philosophy and it’s one which only a tiny minority of Republicans support, even if on one vote their interests happen to have coincided. That’s just a fact, Gonzo.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    The theocon/neocon cabal succeeded in ‘marginalizing’ (which, I guess, means pushing people out of power who don’t embrace the cabal but have nowhere else to go and vote) trad conservatives like mois. If you change your political thinking from parties to policies you can solve the problem.

    Or you can count the numbers and realize that both the Neocons and Theocons are small minorities in the GOP even now, and weild power out of proportion to their numbers because they offer a reliable power base that is easily manipulated. Then if you think about policies you realize that the Democrats are just as infected with minority interest groups whose agendas are as bad as or worse than the Theocons and Neocons, so moving over there isn’t really an option either. So you end up concluding that sticking with the GOP is the way to go and you try to figure out how to cleanse the party and take it back to its roots. There are Democrats facing the same dilemma in their party.

    Oh, and Hero Worshop is completely not part of the picture.

    In that context one must decide, for example, whether Iraq is really important to one, or whether one thinks it’s important because it’s important to Hero Bush and it’s important to help defeat his enemies. Somehow, ones actual interest gets lost in all the symbolism and the proxy battles. Almost as if it were designed to confuse. Enough distractions and you lose sight of your own goals.

    Iraq has not been a failure overall and looks like it’s going to be a success, but it’s only succeeding at the cost of the Neocon agenda there. No matter how it turns out it will be an utter failure for the Neocons, because their plans for Iraq all failed, and a much more traditional conservative approach to foreign policy in the area which we had to fall back on is working much better.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    well then Mr Nalle, obviously we aren’t going to agree due to our seeing the same set of Facts and coming to two entirely differing conclusions

    i do honestly hope that the NeoCon/Theocons get booted from the GOP, but i would not bet on it

    and as long as you insist on remaining a staunch Apologist FOR the Administration and their PNAC agenda, you fal into the same category as far as i am concerned

    happy Holly-Daze to you and yours

    Excelsior!

  • gonzo marx

    Question for Mr Nalle then…i grant you the factual accuracy as it pertains to GITMO…which i DID state clearly in my comment

    now, will you agree that Padilla is an American citizen who was held as an “enemy combatant” for over 3 years in clear violation of his Constitutional Rights merely because he was declared so by the Administration?

    has the “libertarian” in you been so entirely destroyed by this blind allegience to the Administration that the very fact of this happening does not bother you?

    just curious

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    Merry Christmas (or Happy Holiday or Happy Hannukah) Dave, Gonzo, Eric, Ruvy and all!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    now, will you agree that Padilla is an American citizen who was held as an “enemy combatant” for over 3 years in clear violation of his Constitutional Rights merely because he was declared so by the Administration?

    No question he was a US citizen and should have had his basic rights provided to him. He should have been charged, offered unpayably high bail and then held for as long as was necessary to gather all the evidence needed to convict him. I really fail to see why this wouldn’t be just as good for the cause of justice as what was done with him, and it would have satisfied the legal niceties. My only guess is that the justice department has so little fatih in the bench right now that they didn’t think they could hold him if he got into court – despite the overwhelming evidence against him.

    has the “libertarian” in you been so entirely destroyed by this blind allegience to the Administration that the very fact of this happening does not bother you?

    The libertarian in me is stronger than ever. The Padilla case is the least of what I object to. I also think that the prisoners at GITMO are entitled to due process of the law. But at the same time I’d like to see the administration faulted for what it actually does wrong, not for bogus, manufactured issues.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Mr Nalle sez…
    *The libertarian in me is stronger than ever. The Padilla case is the least of what I object to. I also think that the prisoners at GITMO are entitled to due process of the law. But at the same time I’d like to see the administration faulted for what it actually does wrong, not for bogus, manufactured issues.*

    ummm…these are things that have ACTUALY done fucking WRONG!!

    it is illegal, under the Constitution to hold an american citizen without due process…period

    i agree, they could have easily charged him and held him and prosecuted him under the Law

    so why the fuck DIDN’T they?

    same with FISA…riddle me why the didn’t just follow the fucking Law

    i am quite curious to hear the rationale behind NOT following the Constitution and the Law…especially in the White House

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    That’s the same thing I said, gonzo. My best guess at a rationale is that they don’t trust the courts even a tiny bit.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Mr Nalle sez…
    *My best guess at a rationale is that they don’t trust the courts even a tiny bit.*

    sheer speculation…

    and still NO fucking excuse for the Constitutional Violations involved in just the Padilla case…those Responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law

    but instead, you excuse them because they don’t trust the Judiciary..you know..part of the System of Checks and Balances that is supposed to PREVENT our Government from violating our Rights in the EXACT ways we are talking about?

    silly me..i go with the Constitution and Rule of Law…

    and i dearly Hope that after November ’06 we can actually have the much needed Investigations and Prosecutions for these heinous crimes and Violations

    Excelsior!

  • http://Taylor Allen Stewart

    Vey Nice But you should watch what you say and how you say remember to stay focus on the judges and that you are talking to the judges.