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President Bush – Call Off the dogs on Cindy Sheehan

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Raw Story is talking about the article from 2004 which Matt Drudge is employing, with a Right attack-dog-wind beneath his wings [he got the report archive from Freepers]. The mission to attack is on – the objective is to discredit the mother of a fallen Iraqi soldier.

A mother of a dead child pays close attention to the cause for which her boy dies. She looks, with open eyes, for the higher cause – something she can hold in her heart as a solid reason for never seeing her loving son on the face of this earth again.

Cindy Sheehan is horrified by what she is seeing. And she has been told that she will be arrested if she remains in Crawford, begging to see the President and have him look her in the eye, once again – only this time she has the courage that conviction has brought to her. She isn’t in shock any longer. She cannot remain silent. Her conscience will not allow her to do so.

Her mourning has turned to questions. It was good of the President to have consoled her in mourning. It is wrong of the President to ignore her very public concerns and her very simple request.

Sheehan says that, during the Republican National Convention, she saw President Bush exploiting the meeting he’d had with her family to “justify what he was doing.” She continued, “It’s now clear to me that what I had feared is true: Bush lied us into war, and Casey, more than 1,800 other Americans and thousands and thousands of Iraqis are dead because of what he did.”

Michelle Malkin says this might be politically-motivated, and to that I would say ‘No kidding’. Sheehan said herself, in the quote I just used above, that her perception of the President’s political misuse of her son’s brave death and the family meeting that followed for re-election purposes – and all that has happened in Iraq since Casey’s death – has caused her initial fears to come true. I am especially bothered by Ms. Malkin insinuating that Cindy Sheehan “has lost sight of the fact that her 24-year-old son, Casey, proudly and willingly served.” Cindy Sheehan has never led anyone to believe that. I am disappointed to see Michelle being little more than an echo chamber for Matt Drudge. As a highly visible Conservative blogger, I expect more intellectual and emotional honesty from her. Michelle also imagines she has a telepathic connection to the fallen soldier when she speaks for him:

I can’t imagine Army Spc. Casey Sheehan would stand for a bunch of strangers glomming onto his mother’s crusade and using him to undermine the war effort as they shouted “W killed her son” in front of countless TV cameras.

How can anyone purport to know what Casey would have thought? How he would have reacted? Casey is dead. He’s not coming back to confirm or deny this little chestnut.

Accusing a woman of crocodile tears over the death of a child and concern about the cause for which he died is about as low as it goes. It doesn’t get much lower, folks. (Hear that bottom-of- the-barrel scraping sound?)


Support the troops – unless they die and their Moms start asking too many questions about “why.”

Taking a fallen soldier’s Mama away in handcuffs is not going to do wonders for the President’s already ebbing popularity. (Maybe they can stick a Yellow-Ribbon magnet on the handcuffs to make it acceptable to the extremists of the Right who think the president can do no wrong).

To President Bush, I would say: I’m a mom. My own boy just saw you last week at Fort A.P. Hill. I’ve raised him to respect the office of the President and to be a responsible American citizen. He’s a good boy. Casey Sheehan was a good boy, too. There’s millions and millions of moms out here in America. Our children are our treasure. We’re watching you, President George W. Bush. You say you are a man of compassion. Do the right thing – denounce Sheehan’s ugly rightwing attack-squad and give her the meeting she desires. Look her in the eye – talk to her. We’ll think a lot more of you for having done so. Thank you.

Jude Nagurney Camwell is the blogger known as Iddybud.

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  • Nancy

    Ain’t gonna happen. Smirk is a coward who can’t & won’t defend his lies; but he WILL hide behind the muscle of others who will harrass & smear this woman, even using her own dead son against her – & the conservatives, knee-jerk republicans, & GOP will join in like a pack of baying hounds chaing Eliza over the ice. Smirk has no decency. Anyone who expects to shame or pressure him into it is living in la-la land. He has no shame, and he hides behind his wealth & his office (& the secret service) to avoid ever having to say he’s sorry or he’s wrong or he’s responsible.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    If President Bush would have the moral courage to face this American mom, I think it would be a remarkable breakthrough for all mothers who watch and wait. Obviously, you and I do not expect that he will. I honestly hope he surprises all of us.

  • Dallas

    After meeting with President Bush, Cindy Sheehan initially praised him, something she now tries to play off as being in shock. There’s no question that losing a young loved one is painful. My wife’s younger brother died tragically at the age of 18, just five days before he was to begin college.

    It’s not easy to see a kid with such promise die so young. But, life doesn’t guarantee you a perpetual rose garden. You have to deal with the good and the bad, the joy and the tragedy.

    Sheehan needs professional help. Running around the country and leading rallies where she cusses, questions, and accuses President Bush may make her feel good in the short term. She may even believe that she’s doing some good. In the long run, though, she needs to be an adult and learn to accept her son’s death, and to realize that no one on the planet is obligated to agree with, or even hear, her political views – President Bush included.

    The fact is, we’ve heard her point of view. MoveOn.org, Michael Moore, and the Kerry/Edwards campaign spewed it for months. All of the hateful, blaming rhetoric failed then, and it is as abrasive now. It’s way too over-the-top.

    The strangest thing to me is that if her child were such a good guy, as she states, that he always thought of others first, believed in Christ, participated fully in church, she should be comforted by the fact the he is in Heaven with his Savior now.

    Somewhere along the line, Sheehan has snapped. She claims to be a strong Catholic. She needs to go back to the words of Christ that say “forgive and forget” instead of cussing up a blue storm and blaming President Bush for her son’s death.

    Her words and actions are neither healthy nor productive. At best, they makes people realize the pain of losing a loved one, something most of us in adulthood already realized long ago; at worst, though, it smacks of using her son’s name – which he isn’t here to defend – for purely political reasons. If you don’t believe me, just google her name and look at all of the things she has written and said over the past year. Seriously, the poor taste of it all is not going to do her cause any good.

  • Nancy

    It’s appalling when a woman is slandered & libeled for ‘daring’ to question Fearless Leader for his lies that have lead to so many totally pointless deaths of American troops. You consider HIS actions, evasions, & gross exploitation of dead troops – troops who wouldn’t BE dead if it weren’t for Bush & his lying ambitions – to be tasteful, let alone ethical? He’s scum. He’s a user & a manipulator & he’s maggot scum. It’s about time someone stood up & called him out for what he is.

  • billy

    how can one “forgive and forget” as christ sdays, when the wrongdoes is going around with a smirk pretending hew didnt lie this country into a war killing 1800 troops?

    you cant forgive an evil unrepentant thug, so she is doing the right thing protesting.

    this woman who ranted against her must really hate the troops and their families to carry bush’s water like that.

  • Dave

    Cindy ought to be proud of her son, he died like a man. More than I can say for so many of these nutty liberals out there. As for being a Christian, she is a Catholic, and an Irish one at that. She probably is related to that Cathy O’Brien woman who took W to court accusing him of child abuse, or the firefighters in NYC who are claiming that the buidings fell due to explosives. We don’t need a fifth columnm. You’re either with us or against us.

  • billy

    “You’re either with us or against us.”

    obviously you and bush are both against us

    as shown in polls showing the VAST majority disapprove of his Iraq actions.

    you might as well join the terrorists.

  • Nancy

    Oh, but he did: it’s called the GOP.

  • billy

    they should change their name from GOP to GOT “gay old terrorists”

  • http://john.stroebel@gmail.com JohnnieAngel

    This president has been on vacation for 6 weeks now. He takes an average of 10 vacations a year.
    I ran a small company that allowed me on the average of 3 days off out of 31.

    I do not think he is running this country. The powers that put him in work through Cheney to do their deeds.

    Bush is a heartless man who has no concern who dies for the cause that make these staggering profits for the businesses behind him.

  • http://www.thereporter.com/barney/ci_2925934 Karen

    Article Last Updated: 8/09/2005 07:24 AM

    Vacaville Reporter

    Anti-war position not new

    By Diane Barney
    TheReporter.Com

    Reporter readers have followed the evolution this past year of Vacaville resident Cindy Sheehan from grieving mother to outspoken anti-war protester who today is camped out near the president’s ranch in Crawford, Texas, demanding his resignation.

    It is not the same Sheehan family we met in April, still stunned after learning that 24-year-old Army Spc. Casey Sheehan had died in an ambush.

    The Sheehans – with 16 other families – met President Bush at Fort Lewis, Wash., where he extended condolences and appreciation for their sacrifice.

    At the time, the Sheehans debated whether to be brutally honest with the president. They had serious concerns about the war. But in the end, they told our reporter, they decided to be respectful. President Bush even kissed Cindy Sheehan on the cheek.

    Cindy Sheehan said of her first encounter with the president, “I now know he’s sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis. I know he’s sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he’s a man of faith.”

    But that article, published June 24, 2004, was called into question on Monday following a story in the Drudge Report.

    Under the headline, “Protesting soldier mom changed story on Bush,” only portions of our story were printed. Left out were the Sheehans’ reservations about the war.

    The online report claimed Cindy Sheehan “dramatically changed her account about what happened when she met the commander in chief last summer!”

    We don’t think there has been a dramatic turnaround. Clearly, Cindy Sheehan’s outrage was festering even then.

    In a press release Monday by the Institute for Public Accuracy, Sheehan explained she was “still in shock” at the time she met with the president.

    “We had decided not to criticize the president then because during that meeting he assured us ‘this is not political.’ And I believed him,” Sheehan wrote. “Then, during the Republican National Convention, he exploited those meetings to justify what he was doing.”

    In ensuing months, she has grown more focused, more determined, more aggressive. She co-founded Gold Star Families For Peace in December 2004, a group which has written numerous letters, articles and posted online reports. She has participated in protests around the country. She and her daughter, Carly, have appeared in anti-war TV messages. And now she’s camping out near the president’s ranch.

    We invite readers to revisit the story – in context – on our Web site and decide for themselves. Stay tuned as it continues to evolve.

    The author is editor of The Reporter.

    ###

  • ss

    dave:

    ‘Cindy ought to be proud of her son, he died like a man. More than I can say for so many of these nutty liberals out there.’

    The dignity, restraint, and respect you show for Mrs. Sheehan’s profound loss is a true example of the best the right is able to muster.

    Although no one, and I do mean NO ONE, in the current administration served in Vietnam; using legal manuevers and a courageous ‘this’ll all blow over’ approach to avoid this service; I am nonetheless sure they are moved by the bravery it took to smear the family member of someone who has. Absolutely sure. As in positive. Based on their own actions.

    Finally, Dave, the heart felt sympathy you display indicates to me that you have not only mastered many of the hidden levels on Grand Theft Auto, but that even more importantly you have a large porn collection and the small penis and repressed homosexual curiosity that that go along with it.
    In short, sir, I SALUTE YOU!
    You Dave!
    And hope that you will yourself be going to Iraq soon.

  • ss

    As for you Dallas, I’m going to assume you are prank post. No one could possibly be stupid enough to think that Christ’s immortal words
    ‘forgive and forget’
    ‘r somethin like that
    could console a woman who lost her son and then was used as a pawn by the President who sent him off to die. Based on a pack of lies. In order to appease a misinformed nation

  • http://toddyarling.com todd

    The really troubling thing is the guy in the White House, at the top, doesn’t seem to understand how bad this looks.

    This just looks really really bad, from a PR standpoint.

    He’s friggin’ at his ranch, on vacation, ok, and this women, deranged by grief, a tool of the Dems, whatever, is that most potent symbol of all time, the bereaved mother, and he is letting her sit on the side of the road, out in the sun and dust, WITH THE EYE OF THE MEDIA ON HER, and he won’t let her come in for a few minutes and take her abuse, or hear her spiel?

    Just to get her out of the spotlight, OK, he should just let her come in and vent or rave or talk calmly. If he really believes in this “war on terror”, he can defend himself, or just be silent and take her abuse.

    THis won’t kill him, no matter how many cuss words she uses.

    This is a PR nitemare and its scary that no one around this guy knows how to deal with it.

  • billy

    bush will never talk to her, or fire rove, or admit we need to change course in iraq, . . .

    it isnt in his nature. to hell with america, he believes, as long as he looks “strong”.

  • G. Oren

    Fisrt of all: I have no liking for the war in Iraq and opposed it from the begininning as an unecessary sideshow that would make stopping the terrorists harder not easier. Shrub and the neocons used our outrage over 9/11 to build a ludicrous case for taking down Saddam and now we see the unintended consequences of rash ill-conceived actions. But: The President of the U.S. should not be expected to perform grief counseling to this poor woman, nor should he feel politically required to dance with this bear to diminish any percieved p/r damage. All the damage there has already been done, if he mixes with her now it will make the damage worse.

    The Shrubbies might learn a lesson from this. All their going around the country to military posts and wrapping themselves in the flag is beginning to wear thin. Thin enough that families are no longer content to silently provide photo ops for crass politics.

    As to the tragedy of the death of our men. We should be proud of them and their sacrifice and realize that they chose to wear the uniform. It is up to us, as the polis, to decide whether the judgement of their leaders (and ours) was or is faulty in the application and continuance of this war.

  • http://jonsobel.com Jon Sobel

    to hell with america, he believes

    billy, you’ve hit it on the nose. No Democratic politician with any stature can be brave enough to stand up and speak this truth, but Bush and his administration don’t care about America. Not even a little tiny bit. They care about themselves, and the corporate interests that put them in power. That’s it.

  • http://john.stroebel@gmail.com JohnnieAngel

    Remember this one point alone….it says volumes about Bush;
    It won’t cost him one cent or more than 15 minutes from his 6 week vacation to speak with this woman…and he would benifit greatly from this single act of kindness. Yet she sits on his curb waiting.

    That is how much he cares about her and how much he cares about the rest of America.

  • copper

    This woman does nothing but disgrace the memory of her son and all others lost during this war. How shameful that the mother of a fallen soldier, would act this way. By the way, who is supporting her during this time? Isn’t that like selling her sons soul so she can be the puppet for the liberals? How proud she must feel. Wanna bet she tries and runs for some sort of office?

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Cindy Sheehan is seeking an answer many grieving, questioning parents seek. Good for her, God bless her, and damn Dubya for ignoring her pleas. What would it hurt for him to talk to her for a few minutes?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Sorry, Cindy might be grieving, but she’s using her son as a platform to be a fraud.

    It isn’t us defecating on her son’s grave, it’s his own mother.

    Not much more reprehensible then that.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    How is she being fraudulent? Perhaps she truly does not support the invasion. Maybe she did at one point and re-thought her position or maybe she has always been anti-war. Perhaps she is incensed genuinely that her son is dead. Perhaps she believes Shrubbie is responsible for it. Seems to me like she is being a great mom standing up for her fallen son. Strikes me as being heroic in a sense. How does it dishonor her son for her to speak her mind and to demand answers to her questions about her son’s tragic death? Isn’t that the reason you war fans say the troops are fighting and dying — so that the masses can have the freedom to express ourselves? And how do you know that her son, before his demise, didn’t have the same questions about the invasion and its justness? In her shoes, given the ability, I would do the same thing. And again, your Bushie would score points by giving her a few minutes of his time. He is supposed to be compassionate, right?

  • gonzo marx

    sloop John B sez…
    *It isn’t us defecating on her son’s grave, it’s his own mother.*

    isn’t he just overflowing with the very milk of human kindness?

    how very kind of you to judge a mother’s grief over the loss of her child

    how very predictable for a “blogburst” type such as yourself to go on about your propagandist , dittohead ways..

    have you gotten your Herr Rove secret decoder ring yet?

    or just 3 free hours with Jeff Gannon/Guckert as your reward?

    Enquiring minds wanna know…

    Excelsior!

  • MCH

    Has Michelle Malkin ever explained why she hasn’t enlisted and volunteered for combat in Iraq?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I doubt it, MCH, because sensible people ignore ignorant and bigoted questions like that.

    Dave

  • MCH

    Hhhmmm, I guess that makes sense. At least it would explain why you came up with all your phoney excuses, Nalle.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    MCH, the truth is the truth. Whether you like it or not doesn’t matter even a tiny bit to me.

    Dave

  • http://thatgayconservative.blogspot.com/ EMT907

    I’m intrigued that pointing out a person’s contradiction is somehow spun around into “slander”, meanwhile, that person’s slander is championed.

    It also fascinates me how the left completely ignores the demands by their own leaders of BJ Clinton to do something about the imminent threat of Saddam Hussein and his WMDs. BJ Clinton ran away to England and SOVIET Russia to avoid service in Vietnam. He’s NEVER offered any explanation as to why those servicemen in the Mog weren’t given the armor and equipment requested. He’s NEVER expressed sympathy for those drug through the streets of Bakara Market. Not ONCE has he expressed real remorse for the “innocent civillians” killed in the Balkans. How many funerals did HE attend? How many caskets did HE allow to be filmed?

    “Since Saddam Hussein refuses to comply with the U.N. resolutions, I support the use of military force either to compel compliance or to destroy, to the best of our ability, Iraq’s capability to build and deliver weapons of mass destruction.” – Sen. Carl Levin, 1998

  • http://thatgayconservative.blogspot.com/ EMT907

    BTW,
    Regarding Malkin’s “telepathic connection”. I consider that less of a “telepathic connection” than John Edwards supposedly channeling a baby in a mother’s womb, wouldn’t you say?

  • gonzo marx

    ummm..what WMD’s?

    still ain’t found them

    and what the fuck does Slick Willie have to do with it?

    he’s been gone since Jan 19, 2000

    check your calendar, then shut off the Limbaugh…

    k?

    thanx

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, 500,000 TONS of yellowcake. What are you going to do with that besides make a hell of a lot of dirty bombs and start a nuclear program?

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Just to give you a visual on that, Gonzo – that’s enough yellowcake that if the barrels were stacked end to end they’d stretch from Maine to Texas. We could come visit each other if we walked on the line of barrels.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    /sigh

    we gotta do this again?

    even the Shrub made jokes about it at a Press Club dinner

    you remember..all the nice slides, with him say..”are there WMD’s here under the dining room table?..no….how about here (insert WH pic)…”

    the claims as opposed to the actual facts found are in stark contrast…

    now look at comment 28, and then read my response

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://thatgayconservative.blogspot.com/ EMT907

    “still ain’t found them”

    You mean that mustard gas and Sarin don’t count? Neither do the missiles that were fired into the desert and the Silkworm that hit the mall in Kuwait? That doesn’t count for anything?

    What does BJ have to do with it? Apparently nothing since he couldn’t be bothered to fulfill the demands of the liberal senators. And while the liberals whine about us giving the biological agents to Saddam and swear that NoKo is a bigger threat, who was it that gave the nuclear material to NoKo? What about the U.N. monitors of NoKo? What about the U.N. cameras installed to make sure NoKo wasn’t doing anything wrong with the nuclear material?
    What does BJ have to do with it? Nothing, exept exemplify the glaring hypocrisy of the liberal left.

  • http://thatgayconservative.blogspot.com/ EMT907

    Furthermore, the left needs to stop asking what the family thinks. They need to stop searching for soldiers with opinions that match their ideology and just ask the troops in general what they think. That is if the kook liberal left isn’t afraid of what they would find out.

  • http://anonymoses.blogspot.com anonyMoses

    Challenge accepted. Let all the soldiers speak out! In fact, I think we all should join hands and say in a clear voice: “Let our children speak”!

    Cindy Sheehan doesn’t have that option, so she has to do it herself.

    The question seems pretty simple. Do we want our children, the soldiers, to be able to give THEIR opinion on the matter, or do we not? And if unable, by proxy through the next of kin?

    You can bet they have been indoctrinated to say and think a certain way, but if given the platform to state their full-throated opinion, without fear of retaliation…what would they say? I suspect we shall never know. Until it is far too late.

    Dave

  • Zack

    To all the conservatives/republicans on this blog: Your SPIN never ceases to amaze me. I realize facts are tough to deal with – particularly when you are trying to defend an inarticulate moron president who wears Christ on his sleeve. Christ… who advocated peace, love, forgiveness. Tell me where Christ ever advocated preemptive strikes?
    Regarding Cindy Sheehan: I didn’t think you low lifes would be able to come up with ways to discredit her. I was wrong. SPIN it all you want, but at the end of the day, her story is a simple one: HER SON DIED IN A WAR. AND THE IDIOT WHO SENT HER SON TO THAT WAR HAS CHANGED HIS RATIONALE FOR DOING SO. FIRST IT WAS WMD. THEN IT WAS AL QUEDA TIES. NOW IT’S TO BRING FREEDOM TO IRAQ. SHE’S PISSED OFF AND SHE WANTS ANSWERS.
    I suppose the traditional thing for a “Gold Star Mom” to do would be to convince herself her son died for a noble cause. But what if she hasn’t been able to dull her pain with that?

  • Zack

    And a few more things: Even Condaliar Rice has PUBLICLY acknowledged the “yellow cake” intelligence was incorrect. Here’s a suggestion: I know you consider “Farenheit:9/11″ to be leftist propaganda, but try checking it out anyway. Ignore Michael Moore’s commentary if you want. In fact, ignore everything but this: THE SECTION WHERE EVERY TOP BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL IS QUOTED AS SAYING IRAQ IS AN IMMINENT THREAT TO US BECAUSE OF OF THEIR WMD’S AND SUCH. Again, I know facts are hard to deal with for Republicans these days, but…
    Also, read the CIA report (as I have) on whether or not Saddam Hussein was connected to the 9/11 attack. No? You don’t want to do that? OK, then I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version: HE WASN’T!!!!!!
    And finally, while you right wingers love to bullshit yourselves about how well the war is being handled while the death toll (and price tag) keeps mounting: Watch tapes of Cheerleader George W. Bush telling us how excited we should all be that “Freedom is on the march in Iraq”
    Now I don’t know any of you people personally, but even if the “mission” in Iraq does succeed, I KNOW that not one of you were sitting around your house 4 years ago saying “you know… my life would be so good if we could just turn Iraq into a democracy”.
    And I know you’ll probably SPIN that and say 9/11 made democracy in Iraq a priority, but in your heart of hearts you don’t really believe it.
    You’ll say you do because, like ALL REPUBLICANS, you are married to an ideology. Bush is your sorry excuse for a quarterback and you just wouldn’t be good upstanding republicans if you admitted he’s one of this biggest fuck ups in modern history. And that he’s gotten 1800 of our troops killed, thousands more maimed, caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi CIVILIANS, inflicted unfathomable destruction on a once sovereign nation, and cost our government $300 billion to pull off this spectacular feat. And… that worst of all, the outcome of this debacle is at best still SHAKY.

  • wil

    anonyMoses writes:

    “Challenge accepted. Let all the soldiers speak out! In fact, I think we all should join hands and say in a clear voice: “Let our children speak”

    And here’s my cue:

    As a member of the Armed Forces of these United States, I shall indeed speak out on this issue.

    The war in Iraq is a joke, albeit a very unfunny one. The banality of the CnC’s justifications for starting it are more frightening than pitiful.

    There are no WMD’s in Iraq.

    Saddam was never a threat to us, nor was he in any way responsible for the tragedy of 9/11. Oh, sure, he was a REALLY BAD MAN, but only if you were a Kurd or a Shiite.

    And he certainly didn’t have ties to al-Qaeda. Last I checked, he hated fundamentalists about as much as he hated Kurds and Shiites.

    Now that I as a member of the US Armed Forces have weighed in on this subject, I invite the chickenhawk neo-cons to vent their ire toward me at their own leisure: I certainly love being lectured by Proud Fuckin’ Civilians about duty, honor and country.

  • wil

    Oh, and one last thing:

    Nobody ever gave a shit about the democratization of Iraq prior to onset of the war.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>FIRST IT WAS WMD. THEN IT WAS AL QUEDA TIES. NOW IT’S TO BRING FREEDOM TO IRAQ.< <

    And you don't think that any or all of those reasons are good things?

    As for the WMDs, even putting aside the sarin gas and mustard gas and other small traces still left in the country, might I just mention once again the 500,000 TONS of yellowcake which were actually FOUND in Iraq, a substance which can only be used to develop fissionable materials or used in building dirty bombs. That's enough WMD material to fill the pentagon, the capital building and the white house and still have plenty left over.

    >>Saddam was never a threat to us, nor was he in any way responsible for the tragedy of 9/11. Oh, sure, he was a REALLY BAD MAN, but only if you were a Kurd or a Shiite. <<

    And the deaths hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Shiites don’t matter because they are (pick one):

    Darker skinned than us?
    A different religion from us?
    Inconvenient?
    Not really human?

    And let’s not forget the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis of all races who are believed to have starved because Saddam pocketed the oil for food money and didn’t spend it on food with his “Let them Eat Palaces” policy.

    Yep, Saddam sure was a ‘necessary evil’. No reason to do anything. Look the other way. Whistle a merry tune.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    Millions of darker-than-us people have been slaughtered by their own governments in Africa, Dave, but I don’t notice Smirk rushing over there to save THEM & ensure their freedom & democracy. Why? Well, obviously, because none of them are sitting on top of vast oil reserves. I’d bet any money if oil were found tomorrow in Zaire, Smirk & Co. would decide that the people of western africa had suffered enough & now deserved instant & unqualified blessings of democracy courtesy of the US. Bush is as transparent as a baggy, & his credibility – even with the idiot assholes who voted for him – twice – is falling. Wil is absolutely correct, in that prior to the WMD excuse falling through, neither Smirk nor anyone else give a shit about Iraqi democracy or anything else. And frankly, I STILL don’t. So there. If Bush is so excised by Iraqi democracy, perhaps he’d do better to quit here, go over there, become a citizen, and get elected to the Iraqi government, hey? Ha – fat chance.

  • fly in the ointment

    Dave, if you check the infant mortality rates and population figures listed in the CIA World Fact Book for Iraq in 1992 and then look at the same figures for 1993, you’ll see the well being of the average Iraqi was never really our top priority over there.
    I’ll provide the link and information below:

    Iraq People 1992
    http://www.theodora.com/wfb/1992/iraq/iraq_people.html
    SOURCE: 1992 CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
    ***Population: 19,524,700
    Population Growth Rate: 3.90
    Birth rate per 1000: 46
    Death rate per 1000: 7
    Net migration rate per 1000: NA
    ***Infant mortality rate per 1000: 66
    Life expectancy (M) years: 66
    Life expectancy (F) years: 68

    Iraq People 1993
    http://www.theodora.com/wfb/1993/iraq/iraq_people.html
    SOURCE: 1993 CIA WORLD FACTBOOK
    ***Population: 18,445,800
    Population Growth Rate: 3.70
    Birth rate per 1000: 45
    Death rate per 1000: 9
    Net migration rate per 1000: NA
    ***Infant mortality rate per 1000: 84
    Life expectancy (M) years: 62
    Life expectancy (F) years: 64

    The asterisks by population and infant mortality rate are mine. The drop in life expectancy is also telling. This is not to say that the drop in population translates directly to dead Iraqis. Many fled to refugee camps in Iran.
    Sadam played a role in these numbers, in that his actions did prompt the economic sanctions Iraq was under when this happened.
    The sanctions that our media, like al-Iraqya tv, now refer exclusively as the ‘U.N. sanctions’
    I think we all know whose idea the sanctions really were.
    And I don’t think any of us really believes we’re in Iraq to help

    P.S.
    For those of you who say mentioning these facts only encourages terrorism, I would remind you that the SAUDIS, PAKISTANIS, and MORROCANS who have actually carried out the attacks on Western soil have many bizarre motivations, and the health and welfare of Iraqi Shi’ites probably doesn’t even make their list.
    In other words, the terrorists are gonna do what they’re gonna do, whether we own up to what we did and find better ways of handling people like Sadam or not.

  • fly in the ointment

    And I don’t mean this as an attack on U.S. soldiers. I’m merely saying that we have to behave in a better way from now on so when they are called on to sacrifice again, it will be for the best of reasons, not just any reason that’ll spin.

  • fly in the ointment

    Last but not least, for those of you unfamiliar with the dates, the oil for food program was started in 1995.
    The scandals and corruption found in the program are real, and need to be addressed, but the program itself SAVED
    hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Our concern, again, is a little belated.

    And now, back to the actual subject of the thread:

    Should A powerful man have to face a mother grieveing as the result of his policy?

    They ALL should have to face the mothers grieving as a result of their policies.

  • http://john.stroebel@gmail.com JohnnieAngel

    Here is the deal many people have lost sight of through the efforts of the current ‘Powers that Be’…
    Yellocake is not a nuclear bomb. It is not against international treaty to have yellowcake. It is an end result of ONE process for extracting Vanaduim from ore. I lived in Utah for the past 2 years…there is an International Uranium Corp mill there…..you can gat a tour and see the yellowcake laying on the mill floor in piles.
    It needs a huge amount of processing to bring it to pure uranium, and then a huge amount more to refine it to the isotope that can be uses for a core…THEN you need to build a bomb.
    Since when does the USA invade other countries because they may or may not have yellowcake? Since when is this a reason to kill over 100,000 civilians and 2000 plus or minus Americans?
    and spend over $330,000,000,000 doing it?
    Since when is it wrong unpatriotic or even questionable for a mother to want answers to the question “Why did my som die” when he was sent to a war that was begun on a foundation of lies by our government? Isn’t this the sort of thing the Nazi’s or the USSR was condemned by us for?
    Since when is it acceptable and even approved to vent our fury on a country that did nothing to us?
    Since when is it a reason to invade a country for then to have chemical weapons WE gave them to begin with?
    Since when is it acceptable to imprison civilian human beings…some kidnaped from other countries, and hold them for this long without being charged or tried?
    The problem as I se it is that too many people in this country approve of these things….or mabe they just shout the loudest.
    We are leaving our morals and values in the dirt to make profits for the corperations at the wheel in Washington.
    This mother has every right to ask why. SHe has every right to receive an answer.
    Our brave troops have gone where they were sent and are serving with honor. The problem is…they are also being misused and we are being lied to in order to keep them there….they are dieing faster and faster…and the only reason is that the corperations behind this are making vast profits/
    …and bin Ladin is still out there.
    Do you realize it took us less time to enter the second world war and finish it than we have spent looking for one man?

  • MCH

    Good points all, JohnnieAngel.

    It really would be interesting to see how gung-ho the likes of Dave Nalle, R.J. (Bobby) Elliott and Michelle Malkin would be if they actually had to serve over there.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Millions of darker-than-us people have been slaughtered by their own governments in Africa, Dave, but I don’t notice Smirk rushing over there to save THEM & ensure their freedom & democracy. Why? Well, obviously, because none of them are sitting on top of vast oil reserves.< <

    Actually, many of them ARE sitting on vast oil reserves, so you missed your mark here. The actual reason is national interest. We have something to gain by establishing a presence in Iraq above and beyond helping the Iraqi people. In Darfur there is nothing to be gained as a nation except a good feeling. The president's first obligation is to pursue the best interests of the nation, and getting into Darfur isn't it. In addition, our unstated policy is that Darfur is a European problem because their companies and government created the mess, so they ought to be the ones to clean it up.

    >>neither Smirk nor anyone else give a shit about Iraqi democracy or anything else.<<

    Anyone sensible and informed was in favor of Iraqi democracy. That may not describe most of the American people, but it certainly includes a lot of political leaders, people in foreign policy jobs, and anyone familiar with the region.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    MCH, I’m not gung-ho now. I doubt I’d be any more or less gun-ho if I had to serve in Iraq. I’d just do my job and do it as well as I could.

    Not that I’d ever actually be likely to serve in a front line position in Iraq if I did join the military. Had I joined it would have been a career choice made many years ago, and I’d likely be teaching at Annapolis now as my grandfather did, or captaining a ship as the third to do so in my family this century and I’d be nowhere near any actual fighting.

    Dave

  • MCH

    “…if I did…if I had…had I…I’d likely be…would have been…”

    Shoulda, coulda, woulda…all adds up to the same thing, Nalle:
    DIDN’T.

  • Tom Connolly

    This gang of thugs passing for an American presidential administration has no shame because it has no character. Any oppositon will be put down just like Germany in the 30’s. For the most part they are chicken hawks drunk with power and knowing none of their kids or anybody they knows kids will end up in this mess.

  • sunshine

    It does not surprise me how the American Criminal Government has always with citizens of all over the world. Latin American countries have been raided, humiliated, destroyed and its people have been abused in all the ways, they have been deprived of their richess, values, pride, etc by the American Government since the creation and independende of our countries. Now the American citizens can see and understand the pain of parents in other countries who lost their children like in Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Central America because of the greed of the American elite. WAKE UP AMERICANS, now your battle have to start to defend your rights, pride, and life from the tirany of your rulers.

  • sue

    Dallas, you said that “The strangest thing to me is that if her child were such a good guy, as she states, that he always thought of others first, believed in Christ, participated fully in church, she should be comforted by the fact the he is in Heaven with his Savior now.”

    Surely if she is a Christian then she believes what the Inspired Scriptures tell us about death? And they say that the dead are “conscious of nothing at all”, and that, when we die, our thoughts “do perish”.

    Secondly, Jesus said that the meek would inherit “the earth”.

    If he had meant heaven wouldn’t be have said so?

    He also said that we were to lay down our arms, and to do good to those that harm us.

    Can a follower of Christ ever take part in war?

    regards Sue

  • Effendi

    Very Interesting read here.
    It is extremely Ironic that the people who blindly support W are just like him. Americans who have shirked their duty or have been too afraid or too “Special” to serve their country. I am a US Special Forces Soldier and I am FOR the American people, I am not “WITH” a blind betrayal of my fellow Americans. I am embarrassed and ashamed of those of you attempting to discredit this poor mother. You say idiotic things like “At first she supported and praised W, but now she is critical of him”. I have absolute ZERO respect for any of you people who have one unkind thing to say about this mother who gave the ultimate sacrifice..her child. For all of you Chicken-Hawks out their blindly supporting W I have a question for you. IF this war is so just and IF this is the best course for the American people why is the president afraid to face this mother and explain to her how sacrificing her son was in the best interest of America. She is in Pain and it is turning to anger and she has NO SOLACE to turn around and say to herself, “At least he died protecting America” she knows in her heart that he died for the interest of Oil or whatever those who hold the strings desire. I do not care to debate those unworthy of debate who defend the actions of W just because he is an American president. If he does NOT hold the best interest of my family and friends at heart than he is AGAINST the American people and a TRAITOR to those he claims to represent. When I hear him say that as Americans we are either “With US or Against US” I wonder who “US” really is because it seems more and more to me that his “US” is not the same as my “US”. MY “US” is the Great people that Made America great, the people who gave me the greatest country in the world to grow up in. The people who want to raise their children in the same awesome fashion we were raised. I’m sorry but I just don’t believe that a bunch of Arabs hate us because we are free, When I was a strapping young Paratrooper they told us the same thing about the Soviets. About how they all wanted to see us dead, turns out they have children too and have no more interest in dying than we do. If the president has nothing to hide and he truly believes that what he is doing is the right thing than he better take Miss Sheehan in his arms and console her for her loss. Because as a soldier I am looking at my Commander in Chief wondering if he would make My mother stand out in the Texas heat for days on end waiting for an answer as to why I was killed for him. It makes me reconsider how much I would do for him knowing in my heart that he would disrespect my mother. People like Dave probably were raised to defend the good ole USA right or wrong, problem is that this is not a partisan right or left thing, we are ALL Americans here and these re-directions towards Bill Clinton are so grade school I can barely believe I am reading them. You people should be embarrassed to even bring up something so unconnected. You are either WITH US “The American People” or you are against US…that goes for you to Mr bush!!

    Scott!!

  • A rope leash

    Those who know war are the last to want it.

    There are many opportunities today in Iraq, and they are not just military…companies like Brown and Root are hiring civlians of all stripes for duties in the war zone.

    If you have never served in the military, or if you have never lived in a war zone, then you really don’t know anything about war. Chickenhawks are full of excuses as to why they never served…but the fact is that there is still plenty of time for them to get over there and do their part. If not them, then perhaps they should encourage their young to do so.

    Otherwise, who cares what you think? Anyone can repeat the particular spin of events that soothes them, and call it “correct”. If you’ve never had a drill sergeant breathing down your neck, or a mortar chasing up your backside, why do you think you are informed enough about war to make an educated statement about it?

    So, this lady is incensed at the pResident, and the Republican borg just can’t understand why. Talk about desperation! The Repubs have had five years to really screw things up, and now that they have, they just can’t see how anyone could be outraged. It’s like any other criminal that’s guilty of anything…deny, spin, make excuses…but never admit to being guilty of anything but good intentions. It’s bullshit. A real man recognizes his mistakes, and makes ammends for those who were wronged by them.

    It’s not too late to make the sacrifice and “serve your country”. If you are not willing to put your ass where your mouth is, then how can anyone take you seriously?

  • norad_save_us

    YA See…….You “liberals” dont understand that in the “post 911 era” we need a new JANE FONDA.Cindy Sheehan is now an Enemy Combatant.I mean, how dare this woman question our King,its like you guys think she has a right to.This is “post 911 america”, either youre WIDUSERAGINSTUS.Look you guys,I know for a fact that Cindy isnt patriotic because she speaks badly of our SAVIOR BUSH.She doesnt even own a HUMVEE,you cant be anymore of a hippie tree hugger than that…….blah blah blah bla.Heres the real deal you neocon maggots….EMPEROR GLUTEUS MAXIMUS is not human and has no soul. To the Secret Service and their Chimperial Commander…please arrest Cindy Sheehan…I would love for the whole world to see that…please oh please oh please…let the whole world see what “MURIKA” has become!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Shoulda, coulda, woulda…all adds up to the same thing, Nalle:
    DIDN’T.<<

    And that’s my choice in a free country, MCH. You should respect my choice just as I respect yours. But you’re not big on respect are you, because you’re pretty much just a childish, one-note bully.

    Get over it. Do something useful instead.

    Dave

  • joshua martin

    Shame on all these people who are bad mouthing Cindy Sheehan. It is unfathomable. The right wingers in this country whose first instinct is to attack anyone who disagrees with them are dispicable, ignorant cowards. I AM A VETERAN OF 2 DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF THE US ARMED FORCES AND I AM A PROUD AMERICAN LIBERAL!!!!!! This administration is the worst, most corrupt, most inept, ever in our history, and no matter what he does, no matter how bad he makes things for our country, he will be defended by people who refuse to think for themselves. He is not God’s man. He is a liar and a fake, and he laughs at you who support him, and mocks you like a childish bully everytime the cameras are turned off. People like Cindy Sheehan made America s great as she was until Bush came to DC and caused the world to hate us. Bush is a coward and a liar.

  • usedtoberight

    It makes no difference if you are democratic or republican, the real separation is between Thinkers and Sheeple. It just so happens that the majority of sheeple fall into the right-wing catagory. Buffoons too proud and too ignorant to admit when they were wrong. Kind of like “Good Ol’ W.” I voted for him the first time around, I was a die hard republican, I hated Clinton. After four years of Bush’s shit, I am an ex-republican who can honestly say I would love to have them repeal the restriction on term limits because I WOULD VOTE FOR CLINTON IN A HEARTBEAT. Not his wife, just the real deal Bill Clinton. I’d rather hear about a presidential BJ any day over watching gas prices inflate like so many hot air balloons. Do you right-wing sheeple not see the direct correllation between rising gas prices and the people reaping the benefits of those rising gas prices? Its Bush, Cheney & Co. fleecing America. I don’t know about you, but I hate taking it up the backside with no lube. Did they give you lube? Is that why you go along with this? Lucky Bastards. Oh, to be ignorant.

  • MCH

    Dittos, comments 54 and 55;

    For more info on those of us who’ve served and are opposed to this invasion, see:
    Veterans Against the Iraq War at http://www.vaiw.org/vet
    -and-
    Iraq Veterans Against the War at http://www.ivaw.net/

    For more data on Chickenhawks and GW Bush’s desertion during the Nam War, see;
    http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/html
    -and-
    http://www.aolbush.com

    Scott, thankyou for your service to our country.

    – MCH, Vietnam era vet, USN ’70-74
    “Some gave all, all gave some.”

  • usedtoberight

    Oh by the way…let Sheehan speak her piece. I’m sure its nothing compared to the tongue lashings Bush has received from Laura, so what is he afraid of? Here’s Mr. Big-Bad Everything about Texas is Billy-Badass Bush and he’s afraid to talk for 5 minutes to a little old lady from California. What a man. What a leader. What a wuss.

  • Cannibal

    JohnnieAngel made very pertinate comments and only forgot to mention one very important fact: Iraq has hugh deposits of yellow cake and would in no way need to purchase this material from an outside sorce.

    Dave Nalle you are so full of shit, I can smell you in Denver. You refuse to accept the fact that you were suckered into this war just like the rest of us, and have failed to address the fact that the lies of your misguided hero have killed thousands of people needlessly. You also stated:

    “MCH, I’m not gung-ho now. I doubt I’d be any more or less gun-ho if I had to serve in Iraq. I’d just do my job and do it as well as I could.

    Not that I’d ever actually be likely to serve in a front line position in Iraq if I did join the military. Had I joined it would have been a career choice made many years ago, and I’d likely be teaching at Annapolis now as my grandfather did, or captaining a ship as the third to do so in my family this century and I’d be nowhere near any actual fighting.”

    Looks to me like you think you are too good to be on the frontlines. I’m sure your relatives that did serve, if you really have any that have, would be very proud of you. Ha!

    There is an old saying about how to end all war, put the people that declare it and support it, right up front.

    Dave Nalle, suck my pus tube, you brainwashed cum bucket!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Reading back over the last few comments I have to say that this thread is degenerating into the ravings of the emotionally outraged and rationally bankrupt and that this seems to cause people to be unable to use punctuation or paragraphs. And of course, when unable to come up with any intelligent arguments they fall back on calling people ‘chickenhawks’ because moveon.org told them that would make people shut up and not try to counter their ravings.

    Unlike most of you, I’ve lived as a civilian in a war zone – and as a child for that matter. I’ve played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I’ve also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I’ve known people who were ‘disappeared’ and never seen again. Maybe that gives me a better perspective on some of these situations than people who’ve been in the military and only seen war from that limited perspective, because I’ve seen not only what happens to a country during war, but also what happens to the people of a country when no one can or will stand up for them and they don’t have the ability to stand up for themselves.

    Think about it.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    That’s interesting – where did you grow up?

  • usedtoberight

    Dave Nalle: ******Unlike most of you, I’ve lived as a civilian in a war zone – and as a child for that matter. I’ve played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I’ve also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I’ve known people who were ‘disappeared’ and never seen again*****

    This kind of sounds like my neighborhood – Any Town USA – Post Patriot Act

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>That’s interesting – where did you grow up?<<

    Syria, Iran and Jordan in the 1960s and then Russia in the 1970s.

    And believe me, the Patriot Act is a far, far cry from the freecom of oppression enjoyed by Savak or the KGB – undesirable though many of its provisions are.

    Dave

  • usedtoberight

    I’m not ignorant…Not blatantly anyways. But I would say, for the Neocons in charge of our country, the Patriot Act is a step in that direction, yes? And you support them? You call yourself an American. LET THE WOMAN TALK TO BUSH!

  • Bush is a FuckingAsshole

    What does Cindy expect from a tried and true War Criminal?

    The whole Bushladen gang needs to be tried for treason and violating the espionage act.

  • Mneedes

    The patriot act is the first step. Learning from the Israelis to shoot first then ask questions later (ala the De Menezes) shooting in Britian is next. This is happening in this country.

    Our country is failing, due to both the liberals and flag conservatives being too corrupt to follow the traditions of our country’s forefathers.

    “Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” Benjamin Franklin

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Looks to me like you think you are too good to be on the frontlines. I’m sure your relatives that did serve, if you really have any that have, would be very proud of you. Ha!<<

    Every one of my uncles and my father served in WW2 or Korea and they were mostly decorated heroes, including one who was a Marine fighter pilot ace and one who was a forward observer at Anzio. My grandfathers were an Admiral and a Commander in the navy and served in both WW1 and WW2. Not one of the kids in my generation on either side – and I have a lot of first cousins – was in the military, despite the fact that it’s a family tradition. The fact is that the ‘call to service’ that existed in my parents and grandparents generation just wasn’t there when we were of military age in the 1970s and 1980s. It’s not that we were afraid to serve or unwilling to serve, the fact is that there wasn’t a NEED for people of that generation to serve in the military. The military was tiny and there were no wars to motivate people to join up. If you join the military you want to at least feel that you’re doing it for a reason, and with no one to fight and the country safe from attack, what reason did anyone without a strong personal interest in a military career have for joining during the post-vietnam era?

    Dave

  • rebelyell

    I’d like to respond to comment #’s 39 and 54.

    Wil, i’ve noticed nobody has responded to your comment so, i will.

    Thank you.

    As a “Proud Fuckin’ Civilian”, i think the mind set of those who have volunteered to protect the freedoms of my loved ones and myself are of paramount importance. You are protecting our freedoms, right?

    I understand you’re a little disgruntled over having been lied to and being asked to accomplish a definitive action against an ideology but nobody said it would be easy.

    I only hope that if (Goodness Forbid) you are ever tasked to actually DEFEND your homeland, you won’t let this little episode sour your enthusiasm. Again, i thank you.

    Scott!!, i thank you also. You took the thoughts right off the tips of my fingers.

    OK, The REAL pawns in this geopolitical game have spoken….Y`all try spinning these boys why don’t ya?

    rebelyell….15 year veteran (yeah, took that damn long to wake up)

  • Brad

    Bush does as he is told, and he is being told by his grown-up handlers not to visit with Sheehan. She might have better luck trying to talk to Cheney, who is obviously more autonomous.

    Yeah, I voted for Bush twice. I could kick myself.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>But I would say, for the Neocons in charge of our country, the Patriot Act is a step in that direction, yes?< <

    The majority of Democrats also voted for the Patriot Acts I and II and for renewing them. In fact, the few amendments proposed to limit the scope of the acts this past session came from Republicans.

    >> And you support them?< <

    Not me, I think they're evil rat bastards.

    >> You call yourself an American. LET THE WOMAN TALK TO BUSH!< <

    The woman in question DID talk to Bush, extensively. I agree that he ought to meet privately with her again. If her concerns are purely personal he has an obligation to discuss them with her. If, as seems to be the case, she's just trying to use this as a publicity stunt to increase her marketability as an activist, then meeting with her serves no good purpose. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bush has offered to meet her privately and she refused - she wants a public confrontation and he has no reason or obligation to cooperate with that.

    >>What does Cindy expect from a tried and true War Criminal? < <

    Bush has been tried and convicted of war crimes? Do fill me in on the details.

    >>The whole Bushladen gang needs to be tried for treason and violating the espionage act.< <

    Which is a felony, but specifically not an act of treason.

    >>”Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” Benjamin Franklin<<

    Nice to see someone actually get that quote right for a change.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude Nagurney Camwell

    I’ve lived as a civilian in a war zone – and as a child for that matter. I’ve played next to mine fields and in bombed out buildings and been under the guns of massed tanks. I’ve also lived in countries where repressive governments ruled, where secret police tailed you and bugged your apartment and could snatch you off the street for questioning. I’ve known people who were ‘disappeared’ and never seen again. Maybe that gives me a better perspective on some of these situations than people who’ve been in the military and only seen war from that limited perspective, because I’ve seen not only what happens to a country during war, but also what happens to the people of a country when no one can or will stand up for them and they don’t have the ability to stand up for themselves.

    Dear Dave,

    I understand your point of view, but we live in the United States of America. It hasn’t been like that here because we have a Constitution that is supposed to give democracy the best name in the business of “individual freedom”. The Patriot act was not mentioned in my original opinion column. I’m sure your views on the Patriot Act are worthy of attention, but I’d prefer we didn’t stray too far…and that we didn’t call eachother distatsteful names (for anyone who has done that). I think we’re all capable of mature discussion – so let’s have it…and keep it on topic, if you please.

    This is about Cindy Sheehan, and in this, the allegedly most free and democratic Republic in the world, a Mom of a dead soldier being handcuffed and taken away as a National Security threat brings about images of those very oppressive countries in which you claim to have grown up, Dave. I do not accept this, as an American and I don’t think anyone should.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I wasn’t the one who brought up the Patriot Act. Take that up with the people who did.

    And as I indicated in my last comment I don’t think Cindy Sheehan should be persecuted and I don’t think she CAN be prosecuted even under the Patriot Act, unless she made some sort of direct terroristic threat against the president.

    I think she has every right to protest, but there are laws in Texas against vagrancy and creating a public nuisance and trespassing, and if she’s violating those or if she made some sort of credible threat then she does have a legal problem.

    But if it’s a peaceful protest on public property then more power to her.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave, you said:

    The woman in question DID talk to Bush, extensively.

    I do not think it was an extensive or a particularly intense discussion, from Cindy Sheehan’s version of the story. Sheehan claims that Bush had a “party” attitude and walked into the room asking “Who are we honoring here?” (He hadn’t even taken a moment to commit Casey’s name to memory – even for that moment.) This does not qualify as an extensive conversation to me.

  • http://www.whatreallyhappened.com Getagrip

    Just like everything else that is happening, this is just ANOTHER weapon of mass distraction. Keep everyone busy arguing and pointing fingers while the criminals rape and pillage the planet. They laugh their asses off when they talk about you people. Democrats, Republicans, Green Party…….all part of the same agenda. All three parties were controlled completely by Skull & Bones in the last election. That says it all!

    The goal is to make the US government look so corrupt that the people will scream out that something must be done.

    Problem, Reaction, Solution. It is the way they do everything.

    Problem: How do we get the american people to accept war in the middle east and totalitarian laws at home. I know, another Pearl Harbour style attack will do it….boom, the WTC comes down

    Reaction: The american people scream something must be done.

    Solution: War in the middle east and the patriot act.

    Problem: How do we get the american people to accept the american union, one big superstate for north america? I know, we make the entire government so corrupt the people will be begging for change.

    Reaction: The american people are fed up with the corruption in the government, all sides. Something must be done!

    Solution: Create the american union composing of Canada, US, Mexico and now all the countries under CAFTA.

    It is all an illusion folks. An illusion created by the international banking cartel, military industrial complex and a few “secret” societies who have as their ultimate goal….turning our planet into a prison…….with them worshipped as gods just like in the good old days.

    If we continue down the path we are going, their ultimate dreams will come true. Their “Great Work of the Ages” will become reality.

    Everyone in the government needs to be fired. EVERYONE, no exceptions. All members of CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergers, Bohemian Grovers, Skull & Bones, Masons, Committee of 300, Royal Bloodlines……….all of them need to be removed and barred from office permanently. It needs to be written into law. If they are not removed nothing will EVER change. EVER!

    The entire government system needs to be overhauled. The power needs to be put BACK into the hands of the people and never relinquished again. EVER! The federal government needs to be VERY small and essentially powerless, only having the powers WE the people give to it. And we CANNOT bow down to pressure from the outside to create the american union for the globalist agenda. Sure it would be fantastic not to have any borders, but only if WE decide that is the way it is to be. NOT the UN.

    Wakeup people, smell the conspiracy and the napalm……time is running out.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I do not think it was an extensive or a particularly intense discussion, from Cindy Sheehan’s version of the story. Sheehan claims that Bush had a “party” attitude and walked into the room asking “Who are we honoring here?” (He hadn’t even taken a moment to commit Casey’s name to memory – even for that moment.) This does not qualify as an extensive conversation to me.
    < <

    Her account doesn't fit with the accounts of others who met with Bush under similar circumstances where he spent time in detailed conversations with parents and is reported to not only have known the names but also the service details of the slain soldiers in question, and to have been very serious and involved.

    You might want to read the Sheehan's own account of their previous meeting with Bush, which was brief, but which they apparently found supportive and meaningful. Their description at the time doesn't match her current description of the event at all. You can read it here.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>All three parties were controlled completely by Skull & Bones in the last election. That says it all!<<

    Skull & Bones is essentially a college fraternity. My fraternity sends me a monthly newsletter which I usually just throw in the trash. It doesn’t control my mind.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    BTW, Getagrip – you’re a crypto-fascist who’s been spending way too much time on infowars.com with your grip on reality turned off. Alex Jones is NOT the new fuhrer.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I think she has every right to protest, but there are laws in Texas against vagrancy and creating a public nuisance and trespassing, and if she’s violating those or if she made some sort of credible threat then she does have a legal problem. But if it’s a peaceful protest on public property then more power to her.

    The use of the law, with a political bent as impetus, happens.
    We know it.

    Even if a protest may seem “peaceful” to some people, all that the law “enforcers” need to say is that they felt it was not peaceful and the protestors are carted away. I saw it happen in NYC during the Republican National Convention.

    If someone decides to use law enforcement to cart Cindy Sheehan away, mark my words, it will be a one of the steepest tipping points of public opinion on the President’s handling of this war. He has surely turned a mountain into a molehill – for NO reason.

  • wil

    Nancy writes:

    “Millions of darker-than-us people have been slaughtered by their own governments in Africa, Dave, but I don’t notice Smirk rushing over there to save THEM & ensure their freedom & democracy”

    That’s because (and as loathe as I am to actually say this), they’re Africans. Hell, they’re not even niggers – they don’t rate that high.

    Dave writes:

    “>>FIRST IT WAS WMD. THEN IT WAS AL QUEDA TIES. NOW IT’S TO BRING FREEDOM TO IRAQ.<<

    And you don’t think that any or all of those reasons are good things?”

    Not if they were based on lies to begin with, Dave.

    You’re missing the whole point: our President LIED to justify his waging war on Iraq.

    Sure, bringing freedom and democracy to the oppressed is, in principle, a good thing but how come Mr. Bush isn’t sending in the Marines to Darfur? Why aren’t we kicking ass all over the globe in those places where such oppressive conditions exist?

    More to the point: how come we’re not kicking the crap out of China and North Korea? They, at least, do possess WMD’s and are by all definitions threats to global stability.

    I’ll tell you why: there’s nothing in it for us. And we certainly wouldn’t dare impose our values militarily on countries who could meet us with equity.

    Had Bush actually said, “We’re going to Iraq to secure the oil fields”, I’d have gone along with that. I like cheap oil as much as the next guy.

    – wil

  • Nancy

    He does a good deal for ‘no reason’, it seems. I’d love to see him expose himself for what he is so even the most idiotic of his defenders has nothing to say. IMO, he showed his true colors when he said “Bring it on!”, secure in the knowledge that neither he nor any of his family or friends would ever, ever be in harm’s way – the mark of a true coward. Of all the chickenshit, yellow, cocky, smug, arrogant, irresponsible things to have said. Yeah, Smirk: you go to Iraq, put on a uniform, pick up a gun, and THEN say ‘bring it on’. I doubt he would.

  • Dawn

    Every mother of every fallen hero would like a word with the person who sent the orders for war. The military isn’t culinary school. It is for those men and women who feel something deeper in their hearts about freedom and protecting this nation than the average citizens. We must mourn every soldier who dies defending us, but can we expect the President to meet with every mother?

    Even FDR wouldn’t have wanted that job.

    My answer to this delimma is to counsel your children vigorously and with vigilance to NOT join the military, and if they are so compelled to not heed your words, then you must stand by their decision to do so. Surely Casey wasn’t forced to join the military.

    This isn’t the draft – when it becomes the draft, then by golly, I will be right with those who oppose Bush’s decision, because that’s a horse of a different color.

  • http://www.whatreallyhappened.com getagrip

    Dave you are asleep. Wakeup. I know you like to believe everything the government spits your way, but they are lying through their teeth. Anyone with half a brain can see through the lies……….wakeup and join the living! Or stay asleep and die with the sheeple. It is only a choice.

    What does Alex Jones have to do with anything? I don’t need anyone to tell me what is going on, I have been researching it for over 10 years straight. I may not know everything, but I have a fairly good idea what the agenda is and who the players are. You on the other hand have not researched anything and believe whatever you are told by the government and their puppets. I meet people like yourself everyday, basically good people who are trying their best to believe in the systems and people they think they are electing. There is nothing wrong with that and in fact it is the way things should be. Unfortunately you have been duped by a global gang of criminals who have taken control of the planet for their own evil gain.

    Don’t support them anymore. Leave the dark side and move into the light. I promise you will feel much better for having done so.

  • Guzo

    All people commenting here need to drop this ‘left-right paradigm’ reality they live in. Isn’t it clear, especially with a quick review of the last several decades, that both sides serve only one master,,,,corporate lobbyists? Too bad that sounds cliche but it is the absolute truth. Our entire government structure is corrupt to the very essence of the meaning. I seen an interview with George Bush Sr. by Cokie Roberts, she asked him about ‘third parties’ and his reply was disdain for them. He vehemently advocated a two-party system, ya wanna know why? Because if you control both sides, your guaranteed to know the outcome – thesis, anti-thesis, sythesis or problem, reaction, solution – the old Hegalian Dialectic. A third party that is NOT controlled could throw several wrenches into the programming of ,as I see it, World Domination or ‘New World Order’. Which George Bush Sr. has promoted several times in public.

    (want the truth about the Bush family:
    http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm if the revelations in this book do not change your entire reality of the Bush family, you are truly souless, and yes that is MY opinion)

    Also I see from these posts that many, if not all believe that 9/11 was still orchestrated by 19 muslim hijackers from caves. This is absolutely astonishing considering the plethora of analysis and data produced since that very morning. Fire HAS NOT, CANNOT, and WILL NOT ever reduce concrete and steel to a fine powder and dust PERIOD! Those buildings came down in a perfect demolition fashion. 9/11, I’m sorry to say, was a perfect psy-op aimed at the American people’s inability to think for themselves, and unfortunatley it has worked to this point. Watching planes fly into buildings then imploding into their own footprint works when one chooses not to use critical thinking to make an informed opinion. Painful Questions and Loose Change are two documentaries that produce complete scientific evidence to thwart the true conspiracy theory, the official government story! But don’t take my word for it, if you haven’t done any research on this subject I truly hope that you would, only when people get past denying the truth can we defeat the true terroists among us and they are inside the gates.

    http://www.physics911.net/spine.htm

    Peace to All,
    Guzo

  • MCH

    “You should respect my choice just as I respect yours…Do something useful instead.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Nalle, I realize you’re used to bullying students around in the classroom, but don’t ever tell me what to do, OK?

    Respect is earned, not demanded; and I have absolutely NO respect for a blowhard phoney who compared dying in accidental traffic fatalities to those courageous soldiers who’ve been killed in combat.

    Is that understood, Nalle?

  • http://www.fotolog.net/truesoldier Me

    You Americans… are so naive.
    Start worring about your own deam country which is going straight to hell.
    Social Security …GONE
    American Bussinesses…GONE
    Freedom….GONE
    ARMY….Soon GONE

    2010, Welcome to a third world country.
    this used to be the US. but it was sold out to the companyes that harvest the OIL. All they had left is a bunch of corpses.
    and BUSH….BUSH who????

    Sorry, but its the truth.
    You can ignore it, or DO SOMETHING.
    and SOMETHING is certainly not WAR.

    http://www.fotolog.net/truesoldier
    PEACE

  • Effendi

    RebelYell, Rock On!!
    It took along time for me to “wake Up” also. A REAL American Patriot serves the best Interest of AMERICANS always, not just who has the big $$.

    OK Dave, Here is the breakdown how I see it.

    My father is an Immigrant (from Iran) he escaped during the Revolution in 1979. I did not know him until I was 30 years old. I was adopted as a Baby and grew up 100% baseball and apple pie. I do NOT share the same beliefs as my father. I am an AMERICAN Born and Raised. he is an Immigrant who like you grew up in a country where he did not have the freedom to state his true feelings. In Public my father praises his new country the United States openly and loudly (just like you) but in private he shares the same fears the rest of us with half a brain question. I think that the treason for this is because people like Myself who have never lived under repression until now, are not afraid of our government. WE state out opinion openly, loudly and proudly because we have never faced arrest for speaking our mind. I am an American soldier that is proud of having carried a gun and defending America in my time, and in my mind that gives me the RIGHT to demand proof that what is being done in the Name of Americans is indeed the best move for them. I am tired of Lobbyists and outside influences that are dual citizens of other countries that are suggested to be making the right move for Americans. Have we lost our mind?. Either you are an American and your actions best benefit America or you are NOT An American and your first protection is for some other country or religion but clearly not America. My opinion of you is that you rearing in foreign oppressed countries has created a core belief within you that is afraid of the truth. You feel that if you support the President no matter what he does you have no chance of being deported or accused of being “Anti-American”. Well I’ve been called everything and I don’t care. My life is not overshadowed by fears that foreigners must feel. If you were Not raised in America, if your loyalties are not 100% in the interest of your family and friends and neighbors than I cannot respect your opinion because it is skewed by the experience of your life elsewhere.
    I am a Proud American and I have NO FEAR of clearly outlining what I feel for my fellow countrymen from my heart.
    I am proud of you RebelYell, I know where you are coming from. It is a fine line to be true to your fellow Americans that count on us and knowing when and where to support our government that appears to have been hijacked by big money and foreign interests. Thank You for your time.

    A TRUE American Patriot
    DJEffendi@Hotmail.com

    Scott!!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave,

    You may have missed the fact that I linked the article you’re recommending in the first sentence of my piece – see above under “Matt Drudge”. I read it days ago.

    Why should Cindy Sheehan’s version have to mirror the other families’ versions?

    By the way, you sent no names or links to these “other families”..I would appreciate those links if you expect me to discuss this frankly and fairly.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Oh yes, I understand your brand of hate and cowardice pretty well, MCH. I’ll say whatever I want to you, because you haven’t earned the right to be respected because you are fundamentally dishonest.

    You don’t have the guts to honestly discuss issues and resort to the most infantile and personal of attacks to try to shut down open discourse. You’re basically a fascist and bring nothing positive to the table.

    Dave

  • ss

    Personally I don’t think there’s any one simple reason we’re in Iraq, but, for the sake of arguement (and ignoring the entirety of our past relatioship with Iraq) lets assume our motives were the best possible. That we wanted to defend the defenseless and provide them with the tools of a democratic society so they could one day defend their own freedoms.
    The article I’ve taken qoutes from is in reference to the slaying of Steven Vincent, a journalist who wanted us to invade Iraq for the reasons given above. The article was posted today by the AP.

    ‘One line of inquiry being pursued by Iraqi police is that Vincent was shot because of his association with the female interpreter.
    Basra has fallen under the control of hardline Islamists who frown on any contact between men and women except within families
    In an opinion column published July 31 in the Times, Vincent wrote that Basra’s police force had been heavily infiltrated by members of Shiite political groups, including those loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr’
    ‘Vincent also was critical of the British military for turning a blind eye to abuses of power by Shiite extremists in Basra.’

    That’s the Shiites, folks. The ones who are on our side. To be fair, the bulk of the article is an unnamed source in British Intelligence giving what he describes as ‘his strong opinion’ that Vincent was not killed by a death squad working INSIDE the Basra police department (though Vincent himself believed that this death squad did exist).

    The adult literacy rate (not illiteracy, literacy) is 40% (source: CIA World Fact Book) Given that and the bleak economic situation in Iraq for the past ten years, it’s really not suprising that they’ll vote if Sistani tells them too, but the whole freedom and individual liberty thing, what a democracy is actually supposed to exist for, remain a concept out of the grasp of the majority group that will be ruling Iraq.
    No WMD’s were found
    Terrorists have struck Europe twice
    And death squads, some on ‘our side’ roam freely enough on the streets of Iraq to kill Western journalists when they feel like it.

    If he won’t talk to Mrs. Sheehan, doesn’t the President owe a better explanation of whats gone wrong and what he plans to do about it to all of us?

  • donald huttle

    The bottom line to the war is this in the form of one question: Is their one justifiable reason why even one american son or daughter should spill their blood in the middle east? If so…what is this reason? Please don’t even try saying Democracy. Let’s try spilling our blood protecting our wide open borders which are abused and exploited every single day. Everything is coming across our borders including portable nuclear weapons. Secondly…As a Viet-nam veteran…I have seen the face of all of this before. I am much older now and am not looking at this through young eyes. But now my eyes see much better. Stop this now if you can. Stop it on an individual basis first by facing the truth based solely on the truth itself. Don’t buy the hype that is used to keep you quiet. This is about the merchandizing of the American people by those in charge. Love of government and love of country is two entirely different things. And to any heartbroken mother who has suffered the worst of trajedys that a woman can experience, I can only say: You’ll see your boy again. Stop your useless march on deaf ears. Your son and any son is no more important to Bush than a used tooth-pick. It’s all about them. They are out of control and you are only wasting your time and money. The general American public is too fat and cowardly to do anything more than cluck their tongues at what they see them do to you for annoying them. Return with dignity to your home. Pray for vindication. Pray for God’s justice. THIS YOU WILL SEE. Don Huttle

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude Nagurney Camwell

    The strangest thing to me is that if her child were such a good guy, as she states, that he always thought of others first, believed in Christ, participated fully in church, she should be comforted by the fact the he is in Heaven with his Savior now.

    PLEASE – Don’t give us that line when we’re talking about asking truth from the President of the United States.

    By the way, Jesus Christ Himself was CRUCIFIED by politicos – for being outspoken about the hierarchy/government of the day. Yes – your savior was oppressed and executed – and many people believe he did it to save mankind – but Bush is not Jesus Christ and he needs to answer to the people of the United States!

    Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. She knows it now. And a whole lot more. We all do.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Scott, I agree that we have a lot to worry about here in the US. Having lived in other societies this is even more apparent to me than it is to those who’ve never travelled beyond their own home town – which is far too many Americans. What concerns me is that too much of our attention is being diverted to worrying about things which are not an immediate threat to the nation.

    Worrying about soldiers in Iraq is important – especially on an individual basis – but it’s not a threat to the nation in the way that issues like social security, healthcare, terrorism and preservation of our civil liberties are. It’s become a distraction thrown out by those who are afraid to discuss these other issues. If they attack Bush on Iraq then they don’t have to come up with ideas to solve the country’s real problems, and I find that sleazy and cowardly.

    >>Why should Cindy Sheehan’s version have to mirror the other families’ versions? < <

    Every experience is unique. I think my point here is that initially it DID mirror their versions, but it changed after the fact, and some have suggested that this change is primarily politically motivated. I don't presume to judge her.

    >>By the way, you sent no names or links to these “other families”..I would appreciate those links if you expect me to discuss this frankly and fairly.<<

    I’ll try to dig them up. I originally found them througgh milblogs, but it was quite a while ago. I’ve also talked to a member of one of the families who met with Bush and reacted favorably, though the family member I know is quite skeptical about the war and the administration.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude Nagurney Camwell

    SS –

    You said
    If he won’t talk to Mrs. Sheehan, doesn’t the President owe a better explanation of whats gone wrong and what he plans to do about it to all of us?

    He owes all of us. He is our moral leader (dear God help us), and he is our public servant. He is not a King. He is not a God.

    I wrote a piece about this titled “Congress Needs to Lean on Bush to Change Course/Policy on Iraq” at my freelance site. It will show I’m not a Bush-basher – I am an idea person. And I love America.

    Excerpt:

    Is there any man or woman out there today who can look us in the eye and tell us they have a plan to rectify the many mistakes that the Bush administration has made in Iraq?

    The only way to preserve America’s reputation is for all of Congress to lean upon President Bush to admit his huge mistakes and to bring our warrior-troops home and to make a humble appeal to our international allies for material support in a peace-keeping mission in Iraq. Republicans in Congress need to leave their clinging partisanship at the door and do what is right for America. It only makes sense that we cannot leave Iraqi troops to fend for themselves, because it will not preserve the fragile democracy blooming in Iraq. It’s also clear we can no longer occupy the nation – even those who THANK us for freeing them from Saddam Hussein are asking us to leave. Where are the sensible ideas? Are they being squelched because of the President’s pointless determination to follow a failing course?

  • usedtoberight

    Dave says
    “but it’s not a threat to the nation in the way that issues like social security, healthcare, ****terrorism**** and preservation of our civil liberties are”

    In all of my years of living as an American, in cities large and small, I have NEVER seen irrefutable proof that an act of “Terrorism”, by a middle eastern extremist, has been executed on American soil. The biggest terrorists are those in charge of our country. If you still believe that load of crap 911 “official story”, then you need help, more than anyone in a blog is prepared to or capable of giving, and I pray for your soul. And as for “preservation of our civil liberties” – the very people you seem to follow around like a puppy dog are the ones stripping us of our civil liberties. No WMD. No Links to Al Qaida. No Democracy to any part of the Middle East. Just Oil. Money and Oil. Please Dave, wake up.

  • wil

    rebelyell writes:

    “As a “Proud Fuckin’ Civilian”, i think the mind set of those who have volunteered to protect the freedoms of my loved ones and myself are of paramount importance. You are protecting our freedoms, right?”

    The last time I checked…

    “I understand you’re a little disgruntled over having been lied to and being asked to accomplish a definitive action against an ideology but nobody said it would be easy.”

    Nor did I expect it would be, but thank you for acknowleding that yes, indeed, I as well as every soldier, sailor and Marine has been lied to.

    Look…if Mr. Bush had been honest from the start and said, “We’re going into Iraq to remove Saddam from power and secure the oil fields” I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

    In fact, I’m all for it. We need oil, oil is important to our national interests (as well as our economic survival) and if it means we gotta swipe it from someone like Saddam so I don’t go into the poor house topping off the tank on my SUV, so be it.

    But do not, under any circumstances, bullshit me.

    Don’t tell me that there is a threat of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons where none exists.

    Don’t tell me that the country I’m about to invade is directly responsible for the tragedy of 9/11 when it wasn’t.

    And when those reasons are shown for the bullshit they really are, don’t tell me that we’re going to liberate and bring democracy to their people, especially when nobody ever gave a shit about democratizing them at all.

    “I only hope that if (Goodness Forbid) you are ever tasked to actually DEFEND your homeland, you won’t let this little episode sour your enthusiasm. Again, i thank you.”

    I am actually defending the homeland, rebel.

    I’m currently over here in South Korea, facing north toward the real threat, the one we should have been focusing on from the start. I’m patiently waiting for the missiles to start flying and for two million North Korean soldiers to spill over the border at any moment
    who would like nothing better than to have “One Korea, under communism.”

    As I look out the window, I see North Korean soldiers glaring back at me.

    Yes, I’m *that* close.

    Please don’t presume to lecture me about “actually” defending my country, or being asked to accomplish a definitive action against an ideology. As you can plainly see, I’m all too intimate with the concept.

    – wil

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude
  • MCH

    …More doublespeak from DAVE NALLE’S HANDBOOK OF HYPOCRISY:

    “It’s not that we were afraid to serve or unwilling to serve, the fact is that there wasn’t a NEED for people of that generation to serve.”
    – Dave Nalle

    You just continue to perpetuate the lies, don’t you Nalle? The TRUTH is, you were in your early 30s at the time of Desert Storm, and yet still evaded service, in spite of not knowing how long that war would last at the time.

    To be continued…

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Wil,

    That was one powerful statement. I’m glad you’ve spoken out.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Found and interesting op-ed by William Rivers Pitt on this subject; it’s called Bush Is No Nixon:

    … Bush has the benefit of First Amendment Zones, which keep demonstrations far away, out of sight and out of mind. He would just as soon flush himself down a toilet as speak to someone critical of his actions. More than any other administration in recent memory, this Bush crew represents the triumph of the Yes-Men. Bush is in his bubble, managed and spun, and nothing gets through.

    Nixon, on the other hand, went a different way one interesting and significant night. In May of 1970, right after the Kent State shootings, when civil unrest across the nation had reached a fever pitch and opposition to the war had roared again to the forefront, Nixon woke his personal valet in the middle of the night. He grabbed a few Secret Service agents and set off for the Lincoln Memorial. There, he spent an hour talking with a large gathering of war protesters encamped around the monument.

    The Time Magazine article from May 18, 1970, recalls the scene this way: “When the conversation turned to the war, Nixon told the students: ‘I know you think we are a bunch of so and so’s.'” Before he left, Nixon said: ‘I know you want to get the war over. Sure you came here to demonstrate and shout your slogans on the ellipse. That’s all right. Just keep it peaceful. Have a good time in Washington, and don’t go away bitter.’ The singular odyssey went on. Nixon and his small contingent wandered through the capital, then drove to the Mayflower Hotel for a breakfast of corned beef hash and eggs – his first restaurant meal in Washington since he assumed power. Then he withdrew to his study in the Executive Office Building to sit out the day of protest.”

    There will be a large anti-war protest in Washington DC on September 24th. Is it even conceivable that George W. Bush might remove himself from the White House that day to speak with the people who disagree with his leadership? The idea is laughable on its face.

    Cindy Sheehan is not in a large crowd in Washington DC. She is not camped on the Lincoln Memorial. She waits for Mr. Bush in a ditch by the side of the road in Crawford, arguably the safest and most comfortable spot in America for this self-styled cowboy. Yet he does not emerge to speak to this woman who lost her son to his war. Somehow, it seems a safe bet that not even Richard Nixon would keep this woman waiting.

    Nixon did some vile, slimy things, but I’ll take off the baseball cap to the Trickster for this.

  • wil

    Yes, I agree we should get back to thread at hand:

    Good for Cindy Sheehan! As it has become increasingly obvious the war in Iraq was based entirely on a lie, she deserves a face-to-face with Mr. Bush…and a damn good explanation.

  • Andy

    I think she has as much chance to see Bush as Michael Moore does.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Oh, so those who don’t agree with Shrubbie — about half of the population — don’t count? Just as I suspected… He was lying when he claimed to be a president for all.

  • Centrist

    “I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Bush has offered to meet her privately and she refused.”

    If that had really happened, do you really think it wouldn’t have been all over the government-run mainstream media in a heartbeat? Wild Bill O’Reilly would be jacking off furiously, Annsama bin Coulter’s Adam’s apple would practically be busting out of her throat, and that little weenie Tucker Carlson’s bowtie would be spinning like a propeller.

  • Nancy

    I consider those who voted Smirk in & supported his stealing the election in 2000, & then re-elected him to 4 more years in ’04, to be just as reprehensible as he is. Blindness, stupidity, & partisanship are no excuse.

    Furthermore, I think Guzo in #86 has hit the nail on the head as far as either party goes.

  • Paul Revere

    The Bush Administration does not care about the American people. You are food to them. If you notice the only people prospering in these times of unemployment , poverty and pain, are the large corporations that donated to the Bush Campaign.
    It is time to water the tree of freedom with the blood of tyrants.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Revolution! Tea, anyone?

  • Rebelyell

    Wil, I’m afraid you mistook my cynicism of our current situation in Iraq as a personal affront. I don’t stoop to that on blogs. I truly meant to say thank you for your post and I agree with most of what you say. I apologize for my ambiguousness.

    My first duty station was Osan, 8 minutes from the DMZ. I know how you feel.

    And I concur also that the biggest issue facing the safety of the United States is the fact that the people have been continuously lied to by their “elected” representatives.

    Mrs. Sheehan has my most sincere condolences, support and appreciation for taking the fight to the theater of greatest threat.

    Rebelyell

  • MCH

    Just a brief “thankyou” to all the veterans who’ve responded on this thread; rebelyell, wil, joshua martin, Donald Huttle, Effendi (Scott), et al. And thanx for your sacrifices.

    It’s refreshing to see the veterans outnumber the Chickenhawks (Dave Nalle, R.J. Elliott, etc) for a change.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>If that had really happened, do you really think it wouldn’t have been all over the government-run mainstream media in a heartbeat? <<

    It’s been pretty thorouhgly demonstrated that Bush doesn’t do things that way – much to his own detriment politically. He keeps certain things private and has a strange sense of moral proprietty about what he should and shouldn’t say to the press. I can’t say anything for sure, but based on all I’ve read about this situation I firmly believe that if Bush invited Cindy Sheehan to a private meeting she would not go and would insist on a public meeting which would never happen. And I know that if he made the offer and she refused he would not play it up for publicity.

    Whatever else Bush may have done wrong, I still believe he has some basic principles, at least in his personal relationships. I think he has a lot of personal problems and almost pathological behavior patterns as well, but he’s not evil and he’s not a monster and he does have some sort of conscience.

    As for the rest of the recent responses, wouldn’t it be nice if all the energy you folks put into hate and endless complaining were directed instead towards something positive?

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org Alan

    Our “president” is nothing more than an AWOL coward but pro war,otherwise known as a chicken hawk, convicted drunk driver, admitted drug abuser, a dim wit, and a fake texan. The bush’s are from Conn. Nothing that these “people” suprize me any more.

  • bob

    reading these comments makes my decision to pick up my business and millions and get the fuck out of this country. most of you are so goddam ignorant to what’s going on in the world, it scares the shit out of me. enjoy your fucking fascist police state – and don’t whine to me when you’re stuck here begging for nickels once bush, greenspan & co. completely bankrupt this nation.

    p.s. get out there and vote! (dumbasses.)

  • gridbug

    Dave Nalle sez:

    “Worrying about soldiers in Iraq is important – especially on an individual basis – but it’s not a threat to the nation in the way that issues like social security, healthcare, terrorism and preservation of our civil liberties are. It’s become a distraction thrown out by those who are afraid to discuss these other issues. If they attack Bush on Iraq then they don’t have to come up with ideas to solve the country’s real problems, and I find that sleazy and cowardly.”

    Kinda hard to expose all the “real” problems that are plaguing this country when the ones that are perpetrating the crimes against us are the ones running the show. The only way to collapse the wall is to loosen one of the load-bearing bricks, then getting the hell out of the way as everything comes apart. I see Cindy Sheehan’s vigil as one of the most significant acts against what is obviously a corrupt and criminal administration to date, and the more support and spotlight she gets the harder it will be for them to avoid detection. I believe in America, and I loathe those who have decided that the have more’s matter more than the other 99% of the citizenry. I find myself asking why the Democrats have missed opportunity after opportunity in slamming the BushCo adminstration on things like the false rationale for the Iraq invasion as documented by the Downing Street minutes. I wish desperately to see America restored to her former glory. At the hands of the NeoCon driven administration, there will only be darker times ahead.

    It’s reassuring to see more and more Americans finally waking up to the fact that they’ve been deliberately manipulated and misled. How exactly is the Iraq war making America safer? How is the mass insertion of Christian theology into the social system going to be better for the country?

    When will the Dave Nalles of America realize that they’ve been (and are continuing to be) swindled?

  • Rick

    Praise all the soldiers that are fighting for a lost cause i feel for them and their families for they are dying for the oil and the oligarchy the global money hungry corporations that are implementing the New World Order.Wake up people and look at the big picture!

  • http://hungrytroll.com troll

    - still think you can control ‘em?

    3 more years – geeeezus

    get your gullible self off my bridge

    troll

  • gridbug

    August 10th, 2005 3:13 pm
    Why No Tea and Sympathy?

    By Maureen Dowd / New York Times

    W. can’t get no satisfaction on Iraq.

    There’s an angry mother of a dead soldier camping outside his Crawford ranch, demanding to see a president who prefers his sympathy to be carefully choreographed.

    A new CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll shows that a majority of Americans now think that going to war was a mistake and that the war has made the U.S. more vulnerable to terrorism. So fighting them there means it’s more likely we’ll have to fight them here?

    Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged yesterday that sophisticated bombs were streaming over the border from Iran to Iraq.

    And the Rolling Stones have taken a rare break from sex odes to record an antiwar song called “Sweet Neo Con,” chiding Condi Rice and Mr. Bush. “You call yourself a Christian; I call you a hypocrite,” Mick Jagger sings.

    [edited — please post a short snippet and a link to the full article]

  • Nancy

    Why should she meet with him privately and give him yet more fodder for his lies? Meeting him privately would simply mean her word against his – and Rove’s, and whatever other flunkies he’s holed up with; then after she left, he’d be free to proclaim what a wonderful, compassionate person he is, and what a screwed up poor woman she is & how he was able to soothe her tortured soul, blah blah blah, thus continuing his policy of exploiting to the max those who have no don’t have the access to the media that he has. He won’t meet her in public because he can’t afford to. He can’t afford to have his lies exposed, and he won’t admit the truth. Even when he’s been caught on camera or recorded on tape, he lies & denies & spins & evades discussing what he doesn’t want to with his classic babble which addresses nothing. Yes, he has pathological problems – foremost of which is being a “successful sociopath”, one who has no empathy or capability of feeling for others, but who can learn to deceive & play the role. He’s capable of sending American kids off to die for his wealthy buddies who are his political donors & bootlickers, and then lying about it; he’s capable of rewarding the snakes & weasels who execute his dirty work & figure out ways to get him his way with big titles, promotions, and national medals of honor, thereby tarnishing every other one that’s ever been awarded, because they’re now nothing but political payoff trash. He’s capable of subverting & politicizing even the S.C. so that their credibility will never be the same to at least half the country, a situation that was avoided until Bush called in Pappy’s political debts to finish off buying an election he couldn’t win honestly; he’s capable of smearing true war heroes – men who went to vietnam, actually did duty, and got wounded for it – in at least 2 cases, grievously via limb amputation or being held POW – of lying and misrepresenting & having that human maggot, Rove (who even his father disdained to employ) spread his poisonous whispering campaigns among the stupid & gullible, aided by the partisan & malicious – and these honorable persons slandered were in his own political party! So much for his much-vaunted loyalty & decency. I do believe all that amply demonstrates he has NO conscience whatsoever, no ethics, no humanity. He is indeed a monster.

  • wil

    RebelYell writes:

    “Wil, I’m afraid you mistook my cynicism of our current situation in Iraq as a personal affront. I don’t stoop to that on blogs. I truly meant to say thank you for your post and I agree with most of what you say. I apologize for my ambiguousness.”

    Apology accepted. As is apparent, I’m too used to dealing with right-wing (knee)jerk reactionaries who have neither the time nor the inclination to take a hard look at the situation our CnC has gotten us into.

    “My first duty station was Osan, 8 minutes from the DMZ. I know how you feel.”

    You, too, have graced the Scariest Place On Earth? Kudos!

    “And I concur also that the biggest issue facing the safety of the United States is the fact that the people have been continuously lied to by their “elected” representatives.”

    From your lips to God’s ears, my friend.

    “Mrs. Sheehan has my most sincere condolences, support and appreciation for taking the fight to the theater of greatest threat.”

    Amen.

    Take care of yourself.

    – wil

  • ray

    It sounds like everyone is caught up in the phony liberal vs conservative debate! It’s not about right vs left ,
    it’s right vs wrong !!

  • Robert

    Cindy Sheehan sees here loving child killed in an illegal and unjust war. She cannot rely on the mainstream media which fails miserably to voice anything other than platitudes and propaganda of the Bush chickenhawks. She finds out by various means that her son was sent to war with a lack of basic protection and wearing Vietnam era armor. Humvees which are only glorified station wagons are regularly blown up and now they are to have armor added which significantly adds weight that it was not designed for. This increases the cost of gas and yes you guessed it the Pentagon says it will send cheaper SUVs to Iraq for not operational duties. The horror is the huge defense spending that has naknrupt the country to the tune of $17000 for every man woman and child mostly owed to Halliburton. Wake up America and take to the streets, time is running out fast.

    Story here.

    And here.

  • billy

    its sad bush wont meet with her, but she doesnt understand bush’s game. if he met with her it would be a sign of weakness. bush values power over right or wrong. he never buckles even when wrong, i.e. rove, iraq, meeting with this lady.

    quite sad for her.

  • cosmic bruce

    Cindy Sheehan is doing what comes naturally for most conscious living organisms, which is to take care of your offspring. An inbuilt desire to see your own flesh and blood do well and become capable of holding their own and making a go of it in the world. After all Bush Senior has done this also has he not? He has given an illiterate, criminal, socially challenged child of his a job and purpose in life. Ok, so it is the most important job in the modern world and he is making him do what he wants him to but he is still looking after his own. There is no point asking W to do anything, I have seen exactly the same TV footage as you have…… the lights are on but there is nobody home. When you interbreed for so long it is bound to happen. There is an overwhelming need for the elite to keep their bloodline pure at all costs, whilst spilling as much of others peoples blood as possible. Satanic, ritualistic offerings? Who, or what, requires the amount of blood they have spilt since ancient times? Do the research folks, if you have not already, it is all in black and white somewhere. My favourite saying… “you can prove anything with facts”. They cant go five minutes without ‘spilling some claret’ as we brits say. There were over 50 wars in the 20th century and the old UK-USA-Israel alliance was involved in every one. They either started, finished, funded, trained or supplied every single one either openly or secretly.

    Several things remain true whatever your political bias. Fighting fire with fire makes a huge out of control FIRE! Trying to put out a fire by starting loads more never worked before and never will. And, replacing a dictator with another dictator gives you one result…. another dictator. I cant read and know everything of course, but I think you will find that the regime in Iraq was put into power by the British way back last century anyway. Removing a true democracy under false pretenses of abuse or military capabilities to install another leader that is carefully hand picked by yourself is another tried and tested plan of the agenda.

    War is raw. Blessings to all those who have faced the true horror on humanities behalf whether justified or not. Please don’t do it again though. If we take out about 2,000 satanists we can have Eden back for keeps, how about it?

    Please check out http://www.circus2iraq.org and see the smiles on the childrens faces. Ms Sheehan can no longer see her own child smile, but she can certainly do something to help keep the joy on millions of others.

  • headed for Bahamas

    I find it amazing that a president who continually espouses the “ownership society” and personal responsibility not only comes from a family with butt-loads of money and has no clue what the average American lives, but also refuses to practice what he preaches. Not too Godly if you ask me.

    He seems to forget – HE WORKS FOR US.

  • http://www.earthlink.net F16Flyer

    I have never been to this site before but once I read this story, a story about a lady who is obviously grieving for her now-dead son, I had to read the comments: and “Zack”, you are DEAD-ON about what you said…”Bush is your sorry excuse for a quarterback and you just wouldn’t be good upstanding republicans if you admitted he’s one of this biggest fuck ups in modern history.”!! I also appreciated your comment on “how many of us were sitting around…Iraq…nice if they were liberated” and all that – I know I wasn’t.
    I have served my country (yes, the USA) and I did so with pride: that pride is no longer there. When I went off to “The Shit” in SA, we didn’t use cluster bombs on innocent civilians, like the military does now. We didn’t setup snipers to pick-off EMS drivers as they transported the wounded to the hospital, the military today seems to have no problems with that. I could go on and on about the shame and humiliation that this administration and their oil-soaked minions have brought to this once-great country, but why should I? Sounds like everyone (well, almost everyone) DOES realize that what ZACK said was and is TRUE: a bunch of “fuck ups”…that about sums up this psychopathic administration.
    What does all this have to do with a mother mourning the loss of her son?? Well, for one thing, I know that if my son were sent-off to fight a war for oil and Israel, and he happened to get killed in “action”, I’d be going after this asshole Bush myself and I don’t mean with a picket-sign either. This, this, this “Thing” that calls itself “Bush” has got to be a reptile. He, or rather, “It”, has no compassion for humanity, let alone for a grieving mother and her dead son. It can’t tell the truth, it has to lie in order to live. It has to protect its own interests, not that of “The People”. It has to do two other things as well: offshore American jobs and insource (via an almost totally unguarded southern border) more and more cheap, disease-carrying, drug-dealing, murdering illegal aliens (that’s “undocumented workers” to you all in the government-owned media) and It loves its jobs! So much so that it stole the damn thing TWICE with the help of It’s “Brain”, “It_II” aka “Rove”.
    I have lost many, many family members. I know what grief is and it will tear you UP inside no matter how the family member me their demise. HOWEVER, when you KNOW that the SOURCE of your demise is sitting a few miles away from you, how could you NOT want to confront It? What Bush (It) has done is equivlent to saying, “Hey man, its alright, just go play on the highway all day no problem…its safe enough I have PROOF of that”!! He, sorry, “It” needs an entire TEAM of psychoanalysts to go with the psychotropic medication it is on and even then he’d need to be put in a straight-jacket along with Cheney and his ole’ pal “Rummy” (ever actually LOOK at this sicko’s face? That man scares the PISS out of me!!) there: they belong together and, well, I hope they even get the hottest, deepest, most depraved pit in hell to fester in when their time comes which, with any luck will be quite soon now.
    Flyer

  • headed for Bahamas

    #114 Bob

    I’m doing just that. I own an internet company and can operate anywhere. I can’t stand to see one more penny given to this corrupt administration. And for the record, what I would have paid in taxes………….every PENNY and more is going to fund global environmental and humanitarian projects.

  • zarathustrafarensis

    I have watched the sick, twisted circus of humanity for 56 years now, and have come to one conclusion. We will destroy ourselves one way or another. The whole planet seems to be gripped by some insidious death wish. Fighting over who gets the bones is useless. Words like “bravery, nobility, selflessness, sacrifice, freedom, liberty”, goes on forever, always used by some digusting despot who desparately tries to cover his own treachery with words like the afformentioned. Still, “you will know the tree by it’s fruit. A healthy tree will produce healthy fruit. A corrupt tree will produce only corrupted fruit”. Look around yourself for one moment without your own personal bias blinding you (if possible)to the truth of what we humans are truly like and you will know what I have come to know. We are all incapable of living up to the wonderful sounding words we use to describe our deeds, no matter what flag(piece of colored cloth)we live under or what creed we claim to live by. We just don’t live the way we fool ourselves into believeing we do. From the moment we open our eyes in the morning until we close them at night we deceive ourselves at every turn so that we can feel better about the lives we live. But no matter how hard we try, the real truth is there, if you simply look at it. Oh, I know it’s ugly, and the hardest thing you will ever do. It’s like facing death. It’s the true end of innocence. Because if you look into the abyss, the abyss also gazes back at you. The emptyness of our greed, ego, and assorted self deceptions will show us how truly cowardly and craven the human race is. And all of the deities we have ever invented to assuage ourselves of our collective guilt; we killed them all in the end, didn’t we? And even those gods we did not kill, we simply forgot about their messages of salvation rather than take on the nearly impossible job of actually living as they had preached. Would not the world be a better place if we all lived as our prophets and saviors told us to? If we respected our neighbors and their beliefs (even if we did not agree with them)this world would have a chance at least! Ah but that’s too much trouble. Hey, what’s on cable tonight? ( one has to have priorities!) As for Mrs Sheehan, her son died defending his mother’s right to protest and to disagree with “our leaders”. That’s a big part of what America was supposed to be about. But of course, that means nothing to the powerfull, who always have and always will cloth themselves in heroic self-rightiousness. That’s what every political leader has done since the beginning of time and will continue to do until one of them finally destroys the whole world, slaghtering every living thing. That’s when the “Devil” really wins kids! When he can finally convince God’s creation to commit suicide. And those who won’t die willingly will have to go along for the ride. It’s a shame, really, but…So it Goes.

  • Rabbitvoz

    Rabbit knows not to feed trolls but here goes. Dave Nalle should really be thanked for providing us with a living example of how the beast-men stay in power and how things for not only the USA but the rest of the world also have become so bad. The important thing is to realise that such people as these will never be able to accept the truth in time and at any rate they would not act on it if they did.

    The only way we are going to regain our freedom and justice is when enough people get angry enough to start shooting. Sorry to say that, but somebody has to while it’s still possible to say it. This is in the back of many minds I know and at the same time a feeling of despair, since it would seem impossible for what we normally think of as a democratic majority at least to get so angry. This is where history becomes a valuable aid. Heed my next words well people, for the RABBIT feels they are of singular significance at this time.

    THE WAR OF INDEPENENCE WAS DIRECTLY SUPPORTED BY 4 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.

    David Nalle and all those other stupid goons who still do their dance of ignorance are just a sideline, a diversion. Get on with the business of getting angry. The sheeple will either wake up, get out of the way or be crushed. If that sounds too brutal then you don’t realise how bad things are. If you don’t realise that the time has come, then you don’t know enough of the truth yet. Keep seeking. But the enemy is becoming more powerful and entrenched people, hurry. Don’t allow yourselves to be sidetracked by embedded trolls, every enlightened site seems to have a full time troll and a few freelance ones get around of course. Your tax dollars probably pay for some of them.

    David Nalle and other neo-con apologists, When the shooting begins, just stay out of the way. Since reality has never been allowed to intrude upon your life, we may be forgiven for assuming you’ll be less than useless when the brown stuff starts flying.

    4% people! 4% are angry, are they that angry?

  • Jewels

    My sympathies extend to Ms. Sheehan and her family. The magnitude of the sorrow and agony of losing a child cannot be imagined by anyone who has not experienced this. It is the VERY worst pain conceivable.

    One thing we need to remember, setting aside the potent emotional issue at hand, her son made a CHOICE. He was not drafted. When a person signs up to join the service, you sign up mind, body and spirit. You serve your country in whatever manner is demanded of you…sadly, in the case of Ms. Sheehan, her son paid the Ultimate Sacrifice.

    Blaming our President for what happened to Ms. Sheehan’s son is wrong for many reasons. To name just two; first, she is denegrating and dishonoring her OWN SON! He wore the uniform. What a sad memorial to be tied with his name. 2nd, Mr. Bush is not the enemy. The true enemies lie within and outside the borders of our country. The enemies within create havoc in manipulating partisan politics for personal and party gain. The enemies outside want to destroy U.S. The talks about the WMD’s and where are they is bullshit. Most folks think we’re looking for missiles and Nukes. There are worse weapons out there. What we have been looking for could fit into a briefcase and annihilate millions.

    Mr. Bush has met with Ms. Sheehan. It is even documented on Michael Moore’s site. Ms. Sheehan’s problem is that she did not think it was a completely satisfactory visit and wants another audience. Looking toward national security issues and the potential for criminal manipulation by any of the campers with Ms. Sheehan, ol’ dubya is standing in the right.

    One of the saddest factors of this situation is the blatant manipulation from far-left factions to “work” this woman’s grief into a platform to be USED.

  • gonzo marx

    another way to look at it, is that she may actually be Honoring her son

    can anyone claim to know him better than his own Mother?

    this is still America, isn’t it?

    the woman has the Right to speak as she likes

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Wow, now I know how to bring out the uninformed, the clinically insane and the incoherent trolls. Not to mention the Alex Jones lunatics, ultra-left zombies and general irrational ranters about everything. Do any of you people ever actually think about the things you say and the things you believe, or do you cower in a dark closet screaming all day long?

    Rabbitvoz: “David Nalle and other neo-con apologists, When the shooting begins, just stay out of the way. Since reality has never been allowed to intrude upon your life, we may be forgiven for assuming you’ll be less than useless when the brown stuff starts flying.”

    I’m one of the most outspoken opponents of the Neocons on BC. Where on earth did you get the idea that I supported them in any way? And trust me, my life is far more real than that of most of you folks because I actually look at the world around me and think about it and form my own conclusions.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>reading these comments makes my decision to pick up my business and millions and get the fuck out of this country. most of you are so goddam ignorant to what’s going on in the world, it scares the shit out of me. enjoy your fucking fascist police state – and don’t whine to me when you’re stuck here begging for nickels once bush, greenspan & co. completely bankrupt this nation.<<

    So Bob, what country are you heading for where you’ll be better off than you are here?

    Dave

  • headed for Bahamas

    Jewels

    As I said, Bush MUST take responsibility. HE got us into this mess, not Cindy’s son. To demand expanations is the right of every citizen, elected officials represent US – we have a right and a DUTY to demand truthfulness and accountability from our elected officials. As my other half likes to point out: democracy isn’t easy – you have to participate and most Americans really don’t to the extent they should.

    So Cindy had a change of opinion (maybe, don’t really now, I can’t read her mind) – why is this bad? People SHOULD revisit their stance on any given subject when they get more information – to stand bullishly by a stance, even when faced with new information is stupid and ultimately counter-productive. It’s called intelligent THOUGHT people. Supposedly, it’s what seperates us from the animals.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Stop being sensible, Bahamaboy – it’s not allowed on this thread.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    waitaminnit..intelligent Thought separates us form the animals?

    and here i had thought i twas our “god given” thumbs that allowed us to turn the pages of our bibles?

    but i digess…

    had to do it, kiddies..my earlier Comment was far too reasonable for the likes of Mr Nalle

    heh

    Excelsior!

  • sangraal

    Whilst most of us aussies support our alliance with the USA, a lot of us are very worried about GW; to our laid-back way of looking at things he is coming across as (sorry about this) insane. Even our conservatives are getting worried; our conservative prime minister, despite his many faults, would have already met with an aussie equivelant of Cindy Sheehan.
    He would have attempted to ease her pain in some way, despite the possibilty of negative publicity.
    GW cant just leave her there & having her arrested is political suicide (if its not there is something wrong over there) — so he will have to meet with her at some stage — the longer he leaves it the worse it will look.

    sangraal

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    According to DailyKos – Mrs. Sheehan is to be arrested sometime today. I can’t help but continue to be appalled and enraged by this behavior. O.K. Bush is a moron with no class but this?
    This treatment of a MOTHER of a fallen soldier killed in Bush’s war?

    Bush so far as flipflopped on removing the traitor (Rove) who outed Valerie Plame
    Bush ‘snuck’ Bolton in at his first opportunity (one big told-u-so)
    and now…..

    What else does this guy have to do for us to throw that Tea Party?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>According to DailyKos – Mrs. Sheehan is to be arrested sometime today. I can’t help but continue to be appalled and enraged by this behavior. O.K. Bush is a moron with no class but this?<<

    I think we’ve found the root problem with this thread. It attacks people who actually believe stuff posted on DailyKos.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Ok, I did some research. Hate to ruin the fun, but here’s the truth.

    As I hypothesized, Bush has actually offered to meet with Sheehan privately. He sent the White House chief of staff to talk to her. They talked for 20 minutes and apparently Sheehan refused to discuss her issues in private and held out for a public confrontation.

    As for the ‘arrest’ planned for tomorrow, this is a baseless rumor being spread by activist groups to get more people to Crawford for a photo ops so it looks like there’s a big crowd protesting. Pure propagandizing. The McLennan County Sheriff has said that no one will be arrested unless they trespass on private property or block the road, neither of which Sheehan has been doing.

    Dave

  • sangraal

    Personally, I do not see the point of a protest unless its a public one. Perhaps thats just me though….

    just to pre-empt:
    PROTEST (noun)
    An individual or collective gesture or display of disapproval.

    sangraal

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well, of course the protest should be public. But if she actually and sincerely wants to meet with the president to discuss things or ‘counsel’ him as she’s changed, then I don’t see why that has to be public. The entire concept sounds like something that ought to be private.

    Dave

  • wil

    Dave writes:

    “As for the ‘arrest’ planned for tomorrow, this is a baseless rumor being spread by activist groups to get more people to Crawford for a photo ops so it looks like there’s a big crowd protesting. Pure propagandizing. The McLennan County Sheriff has said that no one will be arrested unless they trespass on private property or block the road, neither of which Sheehan has been doing.”

    We’ll see.

    I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if she’s thrown in the klink.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    My prediction is she won’t be arrested unless she does something to provoke it in an unambiguous way.

    Dave

  • http://journals.aol.com/vicl04/VictorLanasINADARKTIME/ Victor Lana

    Ms. Sheehan’s not politcally motivated: she is MATERNALLY motivated. As the parent of a son who died in war, she feels she has the right to ask the President of this country, “Why did he die?”

    I think we’re all waiting for an answer on that one.

  • Nancy

    Dave, see my comments on why she has absolutely NO reason to meet with him in private: so he can twist & spin what was said between them. The woman is smarter than you are, apparently, & knows him a lot better.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    By the same measure he has no reason to meet in private with her. He met with her before, she made certain public statements at that time. She has now reversed herself on those statements. Why should he expect her not to use any kind of meeting to her political advantage in the same way you accuse him of doing.

    As for the maternal motivation, she already asked Bush those questions privately and got his answers. He’s also made his answers publicly to the public as a whole. She has a right to make a public spectacle of those questions again, but he’s already done the right thing and personally expressed his regret and answered her questions. Now she wants him publicly humiliated to make herself feel better. She has the right under our constitution to ask that, but he has no obligation to play along.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    just to repeat from the article at the top:

    >>Sheehan says that, during the Republican National Convention, she saw President Bush exploiting the meeting he’d had with her family to “justify what he was doing.” She continued, “It’s now clear to me that what I had feared is true: Bush lied us into war, and Casey, more than 1,800 other Americans and thousands and thousands of Iraqis are dead because of what he did.” <<

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    You do realize that the statement you quoted makes no sense, right?

    Dave

  • Jewels

    Per Dave:”As for the ‘arrest’ planned for tomorrow, this is a baseless rumor being spread by activist groups to get more people to Crawford for a photo ops so it looks like there’s a big crowd protesting. Pure propagandizing. The McLennan County Sheriff has said that no one will be arrested unless they trespass on private property or block the road, neither of which Sheehan has been doing.”

    That is what this entire tragic situation is about ‘propagandizing’. Sadly for Ms. Sheehan, the groups backing her are ecstatic they now have an image (her) to hold high in the media to further their own causes. She has simply been swept up in the tide of their partisan ideologies. The point made that this should be a private matter is apt. Again, as I have said previously, she has already had one private meeting with him.
    The issue that he should give her another counsel, I do agree with that, but I think Bush and his staff realize Ms. Sheehan is not after another private encounter. This is being staged public for the current impact it is generating.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    It’s true that we don’t know how much of the effort to turn this into a media propaganda festival is Sheehan’s doing and to what extent she’s basically being used by activist groups and even the media to advance their interests. It’s probably a mix of the two, but if I were Bush I’d stay out of it too. If you get down in the gutter with them you get dirty too.

    Dave

  • John H

    As Cindy Sheehan is a threat to national security, she is up for arrest. With her may be lots and lots of you who are with her, and not with the program. I invite your comments, e-mail me at usa-number1@hotmail.com Then maybe one to one u can talk some sense into you. Since most of you won’t take that step, let me say a few words. When they do arrest you, remember why. And if in jail unpleasant things happen, remember why. Other prisoners may react by raping you. That is partiotism. And it may hurt you. You may just learn a thing or two then. But it won’t stop there. We are not unaware of what is going on. There are those of you who are going to experience the long arm of the law soon. And guess what, it will hurt. And it might just hurt most those ungrateful parents who have to cry about their precious babies who got killed in Iraq. If you have any other children, we might just send them to Iraq…or Gitmo, where we can teach them a good lesson. a dog collar is used to teach a dog, and it can be used to teach patriotism as well. Useful thing. What size neck does Cindy have? Texas is just the place to make it good ‘n red. If the lesbians don’t get her, there’s plenty of patriots with dog collars and who know how to use them.
    The rest of you better watch out.
    John H (usa-number1@hotmail.com)

  • Nancy

    Who the hell are YOU, bozo: Bush’s personal hit man?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    That is what this entire tragic situation is about ‘propagandizing’. Sadly for Ms. Sheehan, the groups backing her are ecstatic they now have an image (her) to hold high in the media to further their own causes.

    The entire lead-up to the Iraq war, and every slogan that has been passed on to us since, has been nothing but propagandizing, Dave.

    Perhaps the best thing to happen is to have a sane counterweight to that propaganda. America is not going to become a land where propaganda of any kind is swallowed – at least not by those who remain committed to true freedom and democracy.

    So, call propaganda out where you see it. Everyone.

    Am I “ecstatic” about all the death and destruction that was more than likely never necessary -or could have been handled far more successfully at best?

    Shit,. no, I’m not ecstatic.

    I’m concerned!

    And to the perfect TURD in comment number 152 – you are the perfect example of an American neofascist. Perhaps it would be good of you to hear from some attorneys on your “offer”. You couldn’t scare us into your corner with lies about 9/11 and Iraq, so now you intimidate us outright?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    If you get down in the gutter with them you get dirty too.

    So, sacrificing a boy to America and expecting truth, honesty, and democractic consideration is now considered to be “Gutter” activity?

    SHAME on you, Dave!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    >>Sheehan says that, during the Republican National Convention, she saw President Bush exploiting the meeting he’d had with her family to “justify what he was doing.” She continued, “It’s now clear to me that what I had feared is true: Bush lied us into war, and Casey, more than 1,800 other Americans and thousands and thousands of Iraqis are dead because of what he did.” < <

    Comment 149 posted by Dave Nalle on August 11, 2005 10:12 AM:
    You do realize that the statement you quoted makes no sense, right?

    Dave

    _________________

    That’s not exactly what I’d call a reasoned dissent with what I had written, Dave. Putting a blanket of “Makes no sense” on something is not a very effective argument.

    Your argument makes no sense. Where’s the beef?

  • John H

    What lies about 9/11? Are you one of the conspiracy theorists, Jude? If so, you might want to ponder that such actions are soon to be against the law. In fact, one of your democrat friends, Schumer, of NY, proposed just such a law. He, like many of the better lawmakers, is Jewish, and they know how to deal with people like you there (even if your name ironically means “jew” in German). They have helped the US with their know-how, and they can protect the land of the free by taking out people like you. Hey jude, don’t take it wrong. You’re gonna have to wake up. Some people need to learn to respect the Bush family. They have been around a long time. By the way, as to that Brit rock star Mick Jagger, he and the Queen might like to get a nice tour of Abu Ghraib. Too much stuff coming out of the UKland and we will put a stop to some of it soon. Just you watch, it may teach you and Cindy a lesson. As to any other parents out there who think they can just fuck with the US, they are going to learn to stay home and get with the program.
    John H

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave – research with no sources?

    You wrote:

    Ok, I did some research. Hate to ruin the fun, but here’s the truth.

    You expect someone to believe you with no sources? No links? Back up your “truth”, if you expect anyone to consider it as such, with some punch.

    As I hypothesized, Bush has actually offered to meet with Sheehan privately.

    Your source? If this was true, it would be PLASTERED all over the media headlines. The White House would see to it. I don’t believe this rumor at all.

    As for the ‘arrest’ planned for tomorrow, this is a baseless rumor being spread by activist groups to get more people to Crawford for a photo ops

    Sez who, Dave?

    Sourceless conjecture is not credible to me. Let’s see some links. Something.

    Cindy just wants to see her president.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I am no conspiracy theorist, John H, except for the fact that I suspect you are attempting to be a satirist here, and I think you’re doing an amazing job of it.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    From Margaret Carlson:
    [Bloomberg News]
    “On Friday, Bush will have to pass by Sheehan in his climate- controlled car with its tinted windows, kicking up dust and caking Sheehan’s sunburned face, or forgo a fundraiser at a nearby spread. Bush lives in a bubble — his pre-screened audiences applaud him for platitudes and for his resolve. He goes nowhere alone. He took Dick Cheney along to his interview with the 9/11 Commission.

    He isn’t refusing to see Sheehan because he’s callous but because he’s like those of us listening to [Lila] Lipscomb. Alone with Sheehan, he might find himself crying, over something his privileged position means he will never have to endure.”

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    HEAR CINDY SHEEHAN’S OWN RESPONSE re: Michelle Malkin’s comments about her son, Casey.

    The last she heard from the White House was last Saturday, when Hagin and Hadley met with her.

    Nothing else. No other offers.

    Dave Nalle – you listening?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Dave – research with no sources?< <

    Since my sources consisted of nothing more complex than goodling a few newspaper articles with the words 'sheehan' and 'arrest', I figured anyone could find the info.

    >>You expect someone to believe you with no sources? No links? Back up your “truth”, if you expect anyone to consider it as such, with some punch.< <

    Sure, because I'm not a liar and this is stuff which is already all over the mainstream media.

    >>Your source? If this was true, it would be PLASTERED all over the media headlines. The White House would see to it. I don’t believe this rumor at all.< <

    Believe what you like. It's a fact.

    >>Sez who, Dave? < <

    Did you not READ my comment? The local Sheriff said it.

    >>Sourceless conjecture is not credible to me. Let’s see some links. Something. < <

    Perhaps before disputing obvious, known fact you should go to the trouble of actually looking at a newspaper for yourself.

    Here are some sources:

    The AP story from CNN with the quote from the sheriff and info on her meeting with Bush’s representatives.

    From the local paper combining the AP story with local coverage, with another quote from the sheriff about not arresting anyone who behaves.

    Dave

  • ss

    JUDE:

    Nalle has internalized his apologies for Bush to the point where he has a personal affection for the man, and a bit of a blind spot when defending him. (suprising, since Dave seems like a pretty decent guy on other threads).

    That said, if you were Bush, would you arrest this woman? Especially when you have the option of simply ignoring her,
    having your people put together a rally of mom’s who will stand up and say their proud of their own dead sons and the prez, and then use your office to deflect attention away from Mrs. Sheehan and onto the mom’s you think America should listen too.

    I think Bush sacrificed people to shore up his standing among the hawks,
    I’m against the war in Iraq, I don’t believe we care about the Iraqis, and think Buch & co. would like nothing more than to honor our dead soldiers by forgetting about them, since Iraq has not gone well. But believing every rumor that comes down the pike just makes you less credible.

    On the other When the Mom’s with Dead Sons Who Still Support the President Rally begins though, remember all the neocon apologists who claimed this woman was just propaganda.

  • Nancy

    This counter-rally idea would be hysterically funny if it weren’t so very Bushian & probable. Bets, anyone? How long before Bereaved Moms for Bush starts up? Remember, you read it here first….

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    When the Mom’s with Dead Sons Who Still Support the President Rally begins though, remember all the neocon apologists who claimed this woman was just propaganda.

    Astute commentary, ss.

    Knowing the ususal tactics of Bush and Co, I suspect they believe their own brand of propaganda will, at the very least, keep the support of those who still follow blindly. It isn’t going to convince the 2/3 of the nation who already believe this war was worth the costs – or that they were not misled. They’re more likely to have great empathy for the moms who lost sons. We should have great empathy for every last one of them.

    Your question “if you were Bush”, is a loaded question. I would go back to post-9/11 and change nearly everything. I could fill a tome’s worth.

    I would definitely not arrest her. I would have met with her long before now. But that’s me. I’m not him.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave Nalle,

    Your references only show me that the law enforcement may or may not arrest protestors, depending upon what occurs.

    The rest of your insinuations go uncorroborated. Totally. I’m not calling you a liar. I’m saying you’re all hat/no cattle.

    I wish you would offer your sources in a civil spirit, rather than accusing someone who questions you of not taking special note of every line that’s been printed in all of cyberspace.

  • JACK CRAWFORD

    i’ve seen my country do some shameful things in my 63 years on this planet but nothing compares to the way the bush cabal is treating the mother of a patriotic soldier that died doing his duty,please stop harrassing and slandering cindy sheehan, why is fearless leader afraid to meet with this heartbroken mother ?? is it because he cannot justify her son’s death??

  • http://drdawgsblawg.blogspot.com John Baglow

    Not all of us buy into the current scurrility directed against Cindy Sheehan. I did a piece on this over at my place: “Sheehan’s public service.” Comments welcome.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Your references only show me that the law enforcement may or may not arrest protestors, depending upon what occurs.< <

    That's what I said in my original comment. The point is that there's no 'plan' to arrest her the way that all the leftist blogs are claiming in order to get people to go down there. As I originally said the sheriff won't arrest her unless she does something illegal.

    >>The rest of your insinuations go uncorroborated. < <

    Did you not bother to read the rest of the AP article? Bush had two of his people meet with Sheehan to discuss her issues. She wanted a public meeting with the president. They wanted to keep things private, so she blew them off.

    >>Totally. I’m not calling you a liar. I’m saying you’re all hat/no cattle.<<

    Glad you’re not calling me a liar, since what I’ve said is entirely supported by the facts. I have neither a hat nor cattle, though I do live in Texas. I keep cool with airconditioning.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud@yahoo.com Jude

    Dave,

    You have no factually backed up your case – only one obvious part.

    I surely haven’t “missed” the unsatisfactory Hagin/Hadley meeting, it was written about (BY ME) last Sunday.

    You mean you missed it?

    You seem to be a sensitive soul. Once again, I never called you a liar. I’m calling you non-credible, as journalists go. You made statements that are not backed by sources or reality.

    I’m still waiting to find out about the private meeting you say the President offered Sheehan since she has been in Crawford.

    If you meant the one with Hadley and Hagin – well, that’s not a meeting with the President, is it, now?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Did you not bother to read the rest of the AP article? Bush had two of his people meet with Sheehan to discuss her issues. She wanted a public meeting with the president. They wanted to keep things private, so she blew them off.

    Dave,

    Please. Link the part of the AP article you linked that backs this up.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Wrong link – the AP story.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    DAve,

    I’m trying to give you every benefit of the doubt.

    There’s nothing in the AP/CNN article that says what you have claimed.

    How intellectually dishonest of you!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Now Drudge is airing the Sheehan family’s sorrow.

    Cindy Sheehan and her huband have separated as a result of the stress over Casey’s death. Cindy’s passionate conviction has carried her to where she stands today – and the stress of it all broke a family in two.

    Instead of the empathy and sorrow one might have for a family in crisis over the death of their soldier-son, Matt Drudge and his filth-informers have decided to go for the jugular and put Granny and the cousins’ pain up for us all to see. (They are her in-laws, I guarantee it).

    Leave it to Drudge to get the dirty scoop.

    Meanwhile, a mother is still asking questions. She still waits for President Bush, whose administration thinks it’s a better idea to create a divide mothers of America who have lost their children and trash Cindy Sheehan than it is to have a straightforward meeting with the woman.

    So much for “family values.”

    President Bush – when on earth will you do the right thing?

    Denounce this madness and meet with her.

  • CrawlerChris

    Quote :”He’s NEVER offered any explanation as to why those servicemen in the Mog weren’t given the armor and equipment requested. ”

    Let we not forget Bush #1 SENT our troops there and clinton received the mess , much like the next President will receive the slop-pile left over from Bush #2 .

  • gridbug

    Found this online, dated 8/11/05:

    ——

    107.3 CANCELS the Anti-Sheehan BBQ!

    Please be advised that due to lack of local interest, the pro-troop
    rally tentatively scheduled by KWTX-AM, KLFX-FM for this coming Saturday will not be taking place. Please tune into KWTX-AM, KLFX-FM on Monday for comprehensive news coverage and commentary on developments related to the Iraq war protest organized by Mrs. Cindy Sheehan, scheduled to be held in Crawford this Saturday.

    ——

    So there’s one failed attempt at promoting a rah-rah against Cindy Sheehan’s vigil. Too bad, so sad.

    Can’t wait to see what’s next.

  • gridbug

    It should go without saying that anything that comes out of Bill O’Reilly’s mouth has zero validity. Having said that, here’s a link documenting his attempts to smear Cindy Sheehan. You’d think after his “falafel shower fantasy” fiasco that people would realize what a hypocritical and immoral jackass he really is. But then again, his target audience is the same slack-jawed knee-jerk know-nothings who are responsible for helping put America in the downward spiral she’s in.

    Link: http://mediamatters.org/items/200508110002

  • Dallas

    Christ speaks for Himself, saying in verses 5-8 about war “such things must happen.” Yes, Christ taught us to put love for each other above all else and also preached living a quiet, peaceful life of obedience to His word, but he also knew the fallen nature of man and could forsee the conflicts that would arise from such.

    His message to Christians about the reality of war, and famine/earthquake was “see to it that you are not alarmed.” Basically, Christ says to keep your eye on the ball – His gospel.

    For the Christian, everything in the world happens within the context of the big picture, which is Christ’s eventual return. A Christian living in that context can take up Christ’s words of assurance about His return as a shield against over concern about war and natural tradegies and their short term effects on their lives.

    Many of you take my words as supporting one side or the other. You need to step back out of your political angst and look at the situation. A woman lost her son. She is grieving. She claims allegiance to Christ, and claims her son possessed the same. If such claims are true, she would be less likely to mourn lost, worldly flesh for so long and take comfort in salvation for her son’s soul.

    Instead, she has put her herself on a crusade that failed to win sympathy during the past elections (Google to discover her affilitation with MoveOn.org and appearance in their anti-Bush commercials last year), and will continue to fail as people slowly dig out her past words, which have been hate-filled, virulent, and punctuated by cursing and wild accusasions.

    I only made two points. One was the she needed help. And, I stand by that remark. Two was that her son’s Christianity, which she touts, should give her comfort. The Apostle Paul speaks of the confort of our heavenly home after death in 2 Corinthians 5.

    MATTHEW 24 – Jesus:
    Signs of the End of the Age

    1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2″Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    2 CORINTHIANS 5 – The Apostle Paul
    Our Heavenly Dwelling

    1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

    6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Cindy blogs and calls this an “accountability moment” for George Bush

  • gridbug

    Dallas;

    While I appreciate your right to believe however and in whom/whatever you choose, I feel the need to remind you that the “bible” that Christians are so fond of quoting as their unbeatable defense may in fact be nothing more than a propaganda tool unto itself, designed to assist the all-encompassing goal of the enslavement of free will. The fact that Christianity itself is comprised largely of appropriated pagan rituals and beliefs is enough to cast doubt on the assumed all-encompassing authority that most Christians prefer to espouse.

    We need look no further than the “Book of Revelations” for reinforcement of the greater scheme that has been in the works for centuries. Everything that is described there has come to pass because the POWERS THAT BE have made them come to pass.

    WARS; a no-brainer. The grab for power under the criminally false pretense of religion. Been going on for centuries.

    GLOBAL DISASTER; no doubt due to our continual plundering of the eco-system. The ones in charge are deliberately orchestrating the misuse of resources and the abuse of the planet to bring about the very things that the bible speaks of. Mankind’s reckoning isn’t at the hands of the almightly, it’s at the hands of the elitist cabal that sees the value of keeping people dumb to the greater truth. I’m pretty sure that Jesus would prefer to see us driving around in water-powered vehicles, implementing and expanding on the earth-friendly technologies that already exist in order to preserve our world for our children. Alas, there are no fortunes to be made off such common-sense imenities. And the powers that be know this.

    With all probability, the horrors of Revelations will come to pass, but again, not because of some divine retribution against our collective sins. If you step back and look at everything rationally and connect the dots, there’s really only one conclusion.

    Bush and his NeoCon cabal of liars, cheats and theives have subverted whatever promise Christianity may have ever had and instead are using it to further a terrible and twisted agenda that is designed to trigger a self-fulfilling prophecy, resulting in the destruction of civilization. For everything I’ve learned of fundamental Christian ideals, I’ve seen nothing but the opposite from BushCo.

    If I’ve missed the glories of the administration in spreading the unifying message of love, compassion, and understanding, please enlighten me. I’m not above being proven wrong.

    The true origins and meanings of the bible that we have come to know may never be known. Perhaps they never existed in the first place.

    The future is whatever we make of it. Whether we go down in flames or ascend to further eligtenment is up to us. It’s in our power to change things, to make them better, to fulfill an idealized dream of peace and understanding.

    It’s the one thing that we, the majority, all share in common.

    Resist the perverse will of those who want to take that from you.

    Cindy Sheehan is showing us the way. All we have to do is follow.

  • Eric Olsen

    whoa, nice catch Aaman

    Jude, you sure kicked something off with this one – thanks!

  • gonzo marx

    now Dallas here has an interesting take on it all…let’s have a look, shall we?

    full disclosure: i am not going to get into the bit from Saul of Tarsus(Paul), for theological reasons…my own studies lead me to think he is/was , shall we say, less than Honest…and thus destroys any credibility he, or any of the writings attributed to him…suspect…

    that being said, let us look at the fascinating take Dallas here has on some one else’s grief for her dead son…
    Dallas sez..
    *If such claims are true, she would be less likely to mourn lost, worldly flesh for so long and take comfort in salvation for her son’s soul.*

    this should be a Reason not to Mourn, and by implication Dallas seems to be saying that this should temper her current actions of political protest?

    might i suggest a woodchipper to get rid of that log in your eye?

    Dallas also appears to be suggesting that everyone should calm down about War, since we are approaching “the End Times”..as shown here
    Dallas sez…
    *A Christian living in that context can take up Christ’s words of assurance about His return as a shield against over concern about war and natural tradegies and their short term effects on their lives.*

    his going on to Quote Matthew 24 seems to confirm this hypothesis…

    therefore i am obliged to extrapolate that we should not be “overly concerned” about Wars for theological reasons

    to this humble Narrator, such “reasoning” is even more insidious than the famous Goebbels quote…and as devious as anything Machiavelli proposed

    in America, accoring to the writings of our Founders, and the secular tradition of our Nation…it is our Civic Responsibility to be “overly concerned”…since it is OUR Nation, the Government serves in our Names and at our Pleasure, therefore War..a veyr serious activity, should raise great Concern

    my own thoughts are that this woman has every Right to stand out there, in public space, and protest as much as she likes…the President is under NO obligation to meet with her…however, she is well within the Rights of ANY citizen to use the means she feels justified to put political pressure on ANY government official in furtherance of her own concerns

    that’s how our System works

    i find it interesting that someone would attempt to pervert Biblical verse, in the name of Jesus, to dissuade such an Endeavor of Conscience

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior!

  • John H

    When Cindy gets arrested, are you all going to bail her out? Or just bail out. Lots of folk are gonna be laughing when she does. Leave the Bush family alone. Go back to your stupid lives, or, better yet, get one. Things are gonna change in the US, these kind of protests are gonna end.

  • billy

    “Things are gonna change in the US, these kind of protests are gonna end.”

    sure, how you gonna make that happen?
    if she gets arrested 70% will disapprove of bush instead of the 55% that diapprove of him now.

    you are in a shrinking minority, so watch out.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I just want to disavow all association with Dallas. I sympathize with Cindy Sheehan’s loss, but I think she’s been turned into a propaganda tool of the radical left, possibly willingly, possibly not. That said, I’m not a nutcase like Dallas, I’d just like to see a more truthful assessment of the situation, rather than alarmism and hype from Moveon.org and its little clone warriors.

    Dave

  • MCH

    Jude,

    Great job of not buying into Nalle’s conglomerate of half truths, double-speak and “yadda, yadda, yadda.”

    Keep in mind, they don’t call Dave Nalle “the Texas Souffle” for nothing.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Mmmm souffle. Sounds tasty.

    I posted the links. I stand by what’s in the articles and my interpretation of the facts. You can go read them for yourself and draw your own conclusions. That’s what America is all about.

    If you don’t like it, go down to Crawford and sit on the roadside with Cindy and her groupies.

    Dave

  • Larry C. Wilson

    Cindy says she taught her son to respect the President. No one should be respected automatically simply because of the office they hold. An individual should be respected only for how he or she acts.

  • http://www.beyondtreason.com Jennifer Medina

    11,000 dead, 425,000 US troops dying from Depleted Uranium Exposure
    Chemical & Biological Exposure
    Experimental Vaccinations
    http://www.beyondtreason.com

    YOU OWE TO YOUR COUNTRY TO GO TO THIS LINK, SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM AND WATCH THE POWERFUL 2 MINUTE BROADBAND PRESENTATION! YOU CANNOT CALL YOURSELF A CITIZEN AND REFUSE TO VIEW THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY DOES! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, GO TO http://WWW.BEYONDTREASON.COM AND VIEW THE 2 MINUTE BROADBAND TRAILER THAT EXPLAINS HOW IN ADDITION TO NATIONS DECIMATED FOR OIL AND POWER, 11,000 US TROOPS HAVE DIED AND 425,000 ARE DYING FROM THE ULTIMATE WMD DEPLOYED BY THE GOP. NOTICE THAT VETS CAN RECIEVE A FREE COPY OF THIS DVD SET. PLEASE GET THE WORD OUT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE TO PROTECT AMERICANS ON HOME SOIL FROM A TREASONOUS, MALEVOLENT ADMINISTRATION.

    BACK IN 1937 WE HAD A CHOICE – PETRO FUEL OR A SUSTAINABLE AIR CLEANING CANNABIS DERIVED BIOFUEL

    TODAY THAT CHOICE HAS COST US AND THE WORLD MILLIONS OF LIVES

    IS THAT CHRISTIAN? MORAL? PATRIOTIC? AMERICAN?

    HOW DO WE JUSTIFY THAT TORTURE MAIMING AND SLAUGHTER IS THE BETTER CHOICE TO GROWING A SUSTAINABLE CROP THAT PROVIDES FREE ENERGY AND FREE MEDICINE. CANNABIS DOESN’T KILL ANYONE – PARANOID FANATICAL GREEDY LEGISLATURE DOES.

    This extremely powerful 89 minute film presents comprehensive documentation from United States Government archives of a massive cover-up, including military and civilian experimentation, dating back over 60 years.
    F.O.I.A. & BEYOND: Additional bonus CD-Rom contains thousands of pages of corroborating documentation, which can be viewed from most any computer via an internet browser. (Internet Explorer Recommended)

    Hear the testimony of experts and of United States military veterans who demand answers to questions that the Department of Defense will not address.

    What causes Gulf War Illness?
    (a.k.a. Gulf War Syndrome; Persian Gulf Illness)

    ——————————————————————————–

    Some believe these illnesses are caused by exposure to depleted uranium munitions used on the battlefield. Others believe chemical and biological exposures are the prime suspect. While yet an even larger group argue that experimental vaccines given to our troops, without their knowledge or consent, may have lead to the demise of many of these soldiers.

    Is it a combination of overlapping exposures?
    Depleted Uranium Exposure
    Chemical & Biological Exposure
    Experimental Vaccinations
    A growing number of scientists and respected experts in their fields have been coming forward to share their research and first-hand knowledge of official betrayal.

    As ailing Gulf War Heroes from all 27 coalition countries slowly die of “unknown causes,” they wait for answers from their respective governments… but no satisfying or even credible answers have come forth from the military establishment. Records that span over a decade point to negligence and even culpability on the part of the U.S. Department of Defense and their “disposable army” mentality.

    From the first Gulf War the VA has determined that 250,000 troops are now permanently disabled, 15,000 troops are dead and over 425,000 troops are ill and slowly dying from what the Department of Defense still calls a “mystery disease.” How many more will have to die before action is taken?

    http://www.beyondtreason.com/

  • http://rainlillie.blogspot.com/ Rainlillie

    Cindy Sheehan Is a woman of courage and conviction. She�s doing something that our instincts as parents tell us to do� Fight for your child. Yes it�s true that her son voluntarily joined the military, but we must look at the whole picture here. When he signed up to fight for his country he assumed that everything that Bush and his administration said was true… That Saddam did in fact have WMD�s, that Saddam was working with the terrorist and sooner or later we would have a mushroom-cloud lurking over us. Casey Sheehan thought he was fighting to protect America from the likes of Saddam. With the release of the Downing Street Memo, and the Duelfer report we know unequivocally that those assumptions were all false. The people on the right who call themselves Christians really need to do some soul searching before criticizing Ms. Sheehan.

    Casey Sheehan will never celebrate another birthday, his mother will never again be able to touch his face, or hear his voice. The only thing Ms. Sheehan has left of her son is memories and photographs. Bill O�Reilly and Michelle Malkin can kiss their kids at night and tuck them safely into bed. Ms. Sheehan can�t. When Bill or Michelle sends one of their own over to Iraq and he or she returns in a body bag, then they�ll have an inside look into the mind of Ms. Sheehan. Until then they should stop making jackasses of themselves and continue to cover fluff news.

    Why would anyone expect Ms. Sheehan to sit silently by and become a picture in the background for Bush when he wants to show that he still has support from military families? It�s her duty as a mother and as an American to speak out when she sees wrongdoing by her government.

  • Yvonne

    Scott, I took the liberty of re-posting your comment, number 54, on a UK forum.

    As follow-up, I noted:

    I want to thank Scott, the writer of that comment on the Cindy Sheehan situation, for every word he wrote, and I should go back to that forum to do so…don’t know yet what it takes to sign in.

    In case I don’t, I want him to receive my gratitude energetically/telepathically, whatever. That message and his wording were an awesome demonstration of genuine human connectedness in the face of all that is meant to divide us from one another.

    And here is my lead-in to your comment, which I posted WITH THE LINK TO THIS SITE:

    Here is a very good one from a “special forces” soldier, also in support of Cindy. Very civilized in his speech (I’d posted another soldier’s comments and had felt a need to say, “they just talk that way”), and heartfelt in his expressed thoughts. I notice this is important enough to him that he signs his actual name at the end too. MY emphases (I boldened some commentary).

    Thank you, Scott.

    Yvonne

  • rightious reverand

    I have spent the better part of my night reading and re-reading posts. as an observer of people from way back all I have to say is if bush has nothing to hide then he has nothing to fear, he should talk to cindy and answer her questions. As a minister all I have to say is if she should “turn the other cheek” then why isn’t the U.S. turning the other cheek in it’s war on terror? I was a republican and then turned dem before bush was selected. now I am nothing but an american. it is time to take back the government of the people for the people. I say vote both parties out and send them all packingMy father served this country in WWII and My son did two tours of duty in this atrocity. While I didn’t serve in any branch I admire and respect those that have and do still serve and support them. but people it is time to wake up I am a patriot and of the same age as the first patriots, they tossed one king george to the side and now it is time the real americans stand up and toss this wannabe and his band of thieves and murders to the side as well. vote them all out, impeach those that can’t be voted out yet and send them all to gitmo. They are the true terrorist bringing more terror to the US and the world then any car bomber of any terrorist group in the middle east could ever hope for. let cindy ask her questions, and watch the shock and awe appear on good ol geedumbaya’s face

    ” let the bell of freedom ring

  • Neomorte

    Bush is a Nazi. Pure and simple. Go to the library or go online and read about how and why the Nazi’s did what they did. You will find disturbing parallels. 9/11 = Reichstag Fire.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Whenever someone says “pure and simple” the reality is almost always the opposite.

  • headed for Bahamas

    Dallas,

    Why are you quoting scripture to me? Who do you think you are? Do you not think I have a moral center or that your devotion makes you morally superor? Just because I don’t lockstep to your religious beliefs you think I don’t have deeply held convictions with regard to right and wrong?

    The biggest problem I have with religous types is they think they have a monopoly on morality. PLEASE……..religious fanaticism is reponsible for the Inquisition, countless wars, intolerance, bigotry, sexual exploitation, and………..FLASH……TERRORISM!!!!!!!! Tothis day, you still don’t get it……….Osama and those fanatics that wage terrorist actions think they are just as right as YOU do.

    Religious fanaticism teaches people to follow blindly, well, I think for myself. Anyone who just quotes scripture without offering any thoughts or justifications of their own is a fanatic and offensive to those of us who pride on being moral, compassionate INDIVIDUALS. And know what?

    My moral center dictates that I take the rights and feelings of others into consideration, I do not believe I am superior to others and must respect other cultures. I must respect life on this increasingly small planet and not wantonly exploit it (for the record, I’m NOT a vegetarian). My company mission and by-laws state that we commit at least 30% of our profits for global humanitarian and environmental projects. My will stipulates that everything go to these aims (my spouse is taken care of, no children).

    The irony here is that my values and the way I conduct myself seems to be FAR more in line with the teachings of Jesus than any of the so-called “Christians” I meet. Forgive the diatribe, I’m just so disgusted.

  • Jewels

    I thought today about what was said in some of the comments about the C. Sheehan situation. Many people thought it bad P.R. Bush not meeting with her again; I said earlier that I did not think that is what Ms. Sheehan and co. want anyway. Their agenda is FAR LEFT and lots of MEDIA. They are achieving that. Other than raising her beloved son from the dead, there is nothing President Bush can really do for her.

    So I had another thought after hearing more crits. on his time at the ranch. What do we do in Texas when a big group comes together (normally in a friendly setting)? We throw a BBQ. You know, ribs, brisket, etc… If the Bush camp and staff want to try and better their P.R. status, throw those folks camped on the side of the “dusty” road a BBQ. Texas style; tents, smokers, grills, potato salad. Seating. Iced tea. Ya’ll come back now, ya hear!

  • http://www.psychopundit.com Dave Nalle

    I’m in for the BBQ – I can stop in Taylor and get some excellent sausage on the way up – but I’m not sure Cindy and Friends would go for it . Texas BBQ pretty much consists of a great deal of meat.

    BBQ for political harmony sounds great to me, though. Get rid of these Democrat and Republican parties and invite everyone to the BBQ party!

    Dave

  • http://www.bobice-bolieve.blogspot.com Jewels

    Dave,
    I heard Taylor had a place with really yummy sausage. Takes a Texan to appreciate a Texan. Hey, low carbs high protein!
    I think this entire situation is completely catapulting out of control. Have you seen the Moore site and the Mike Malloy sites yet? Freak city. These are dangerous folks.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Taylor Meat Market produces one of the two best sausages in Texas, IMO. Their new Jalapeno Sausage is surprisngly good too. It’s covered in my review of Mueller’s BBQ in Taylor which I’m going to put up on BC in the next week or so.

    I’ll check out the Moore and Malloy sites – sort of curious how much of a crowd they’ve actually got gathered at this point. Might be a good marketing opportunity for novelty cowboy hats.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    BTW, Thursday is over here in Texas and Cindy Sheehan has not been arrested. Nor have any other protestors as far as I can tell.

    Dave

  • Keith McCants

    There are only two ways to look at this. Either she changed her mind after the first meeting, which the quotes don’t seem to entirely support, or she was simply a coward. She had the chance to ask those questions, had the man face to face, and instead chickened out. Hardly something to be thought of as courageous. She squandered her chance and now that she isn’t being given a second one is bitching about it. If she had any conviction at all she would have confronted the president on all of this initially.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    From my reading of the history of this, she had doubts before meeting with Bush, but he essentially charmed her with his apparently genuine sympathy and so she was won over at least briefly. Then on reflection she became more and more bitter and turned against him again. She lost her son. I can’t blame her for being bitter, now can we expect her to behave entirely rationally given what she’s been through. But I do wish the vultures who are using her would back off. With them in the mix there’s no way she’ll ever get the meeting with Bush.

    Dave

  • Jewels

    I was not there, of course, in the Bush meeting with her, but I can tell you from the history of the Bush admin. there is no way in hell he would have given her any discourse to feel this way. Outside of President Bush being able to bring her son back from the dead, she will not be satisfied in her mission. Can you say LEEEEEFFFFTTTTT?!?

  • http://nomorewarforisrael.blogspot.com Truthseeker

    Cindy Sheehan’s letter to Nightline about PNAC Neocon cabal

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Comment 201 – says: There are only two ways to look at this. Either she changed her mind after the first meeting, which the quotes don’t seem to entirely support, or she was simply a coward. She had the chance to ask those questions, had the man face to face, and instead chickened out. Hardly something to be thought of as courageous.

    This is one of the most ignorant arguments I’ve seen.

    Cindy Sheehan can be called many things, but “coward” and “chicken” surely don’t fit the profile.

    She wouldn’t have had the full story on WMD at the time of the first meeting in June, 2004. On March 31, 2005, it was made clear, by an official Intelligence Capabilities Commission report, that WMD claims were dead wrong.

    Then came the Downing Street memo leaks.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Then on reflection she became more and more bitter and turned against him again

    You mean on the realization that there were no WMD and no 9/11 connections and massaged intelligence and myriad misleadings. You make it sound as if she reflected in a vaccuum, for Pete’s sake.

    Dave, the people you call vultures are the people who care most for Cindy Sheehan and her broken heart and the very good reasons for her questions.

    You don’t care for them because they don’t mesh with your cold political viewpoint. You’re in a rapidly growing minority.

    You still never backed up your last set of allegations – I’m still waiting.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Many people thought it bad P.R. Bush not meeting with her again; I said earlier that I did not think that is what Ms. Sheehan and co. want anyway. Their agenda is FAR LEFT and lots of MEDIA.

    Hello?
    All the President had to do was to meet with her last Saturday and none of this would ever have occurred.

    He’s afraid to face her. He must be.
    Or he secretly despises her for calling him on the carpet. It has to be one or the other. Regardless of his public comments.

    Since when is it FAR LEFT or FAR ANYTHING to expect truth, honesty, transparency, and clarity from your leaders? Especially when American blood is on the line. Get real!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Comment 21 – John Bambenak –
    said:“It isn’t us defecating on her son’s grave, it’s his own mother.”

    Because she’s asking for honesty? Truth? Real words – something other than the spin?

    No, John Bambenek. The only one I see squatting to squeeze out something foul over both Casey’s memory and his loving mother is you for saying such a thing in the first place.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>Dave, the people you call vultures are the people who care most for Cindy Sheehan and her broken heart and the very good reasons for her questions.< <

    The people who care for her should be helping her achieve her goals, not using her for publicity, and that's EXACTLY what these people are doing. They are using her as a way to score political points. She's being 'handled' by Joe Trippi who was Howard Dean's former campaign manager, and she has operatives from major Democrat propaganda groups like moveon.org and democrats.com monitoring and advising her at every step. This is documented fact. She's become a pawn in the big attack campaign and if they're being supportive it's only to advance their own agendas.

    >>You don’t care for them because they don’t mesh with your cold political viewpoint. You’re in a rapidly growing minority.<<

    I don’t care for them because they are using a grieving mother to advance a hate-filled political agenda and demoralize the nation. I’ve got no problem with legitimate discussion of issues, but manufacturing an event like this and using her this way is disgusting.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>You still never backed up your last set of allegations – I’m still waiting.<<

    Read back through the thread. I posted the links and my analysis.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    For those interested in this thread I recomment this article as an insight to how Cindy Sheehan is being used, though that’s not the primary thrust of the article.

    Dave

  • wil

    Dave writes:

    “For those interested in this thread I recomment this article as an insight to how Cindy Sheehan is being used, though that’s not the primary thrust of the article.”

    So you point to the G.W. Bush peanut gallery and cheerleading section (National Review) as evidence of Sheehan’s manipulation?

    Seriously, Dave..what else did you expect them to say?

  • John H

    Let me respond to two of you with one stone; first, billy at # 184, who is telling us to watch out, he thinks he is in the majority. Oh yeah? Bush got elected. Billy did not. Who is in the minority? And as far as tellint me to watch out, that is a threat and that is still a crime. As is harassing members of the Bush family.
    Second bird to kill – Ms. Medina at # 189. She thinks that cannabis is going to make a difference? What, grow hemp? Why, when we can import oil? It’s punks like her that grow that stuff. Good Americans don’t grow hemp. Hemp growers can be arrested. Is that what Cindy and her gang are doing in Texas? Bothering the elected leader as they plant weed in his garden? Grow enough of it and you will have a death penalty offense on your hands. America’s youth is corrupted by cannabis, that’s why so many of them stink and are into left wing politics. Good Americans don’t grow hemp. Good Americans don’t protest. But then again, many of you never had any patriotism classes did you? Long time ago, a patriotic American named William Stokes proposed patriotism classes, and he would have set a very different tone than all of you weed growing protestors. It’s time to drive you fairies out of town, along with your cannabis growing communistic politics. You’re all gonna die. And when you do, I think there will be a new, stronger America with the right kind of attitudes, no more Cindy Sheehans and hemp growers. And guess what, the things I’m saying represent the majority, billy, so maybe you better watch out. Glad to hear from anyone sensible out there, e-mail me at usa-number1@hotmail.com. Let me know if that Cindy chick gets arrested…or SHOT.

    John H

  • ss

    Mrs. Sheehan doesn’t just want to meet with Bush, she wants to hold him accountable. He’s afraid to meet with her because he is responsible for sending her son to Iraq. He did what 53% of America wanted him to do, but the final decision was his. No one’s safety is more secure because of this decision. Iraq has become another jihad for the jihadis and will probably be a somewhat less theocratic version of Iran when this is all said and done. Our allies have been bombed, and when al-Queda or some other group finds a way, they will inflict this trajedy on us again.
    So many have died, so little has been gained.
    Mrs. Sheehan has every right to demand an apology from the President, and the slim majority of Americans who were, in this case, just wrong.
    The President, who I am no fan of, has at least finally acknowledged her pain in a press conference (though from a safe distance and in environment of his choosing). I doubt the majority of Americans will ever be able to admit they were duped into blaming Hussien for 9/11.

  • John H

    Let me reply to the above posting, by “ss”, what does that stand for might I ask? And why are you implying that Bush duped anyone? Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. He was a terrorist. So were many Iraqis. When people threaten the US, s*** happens. Just like in Vietnam. They were terrorising US sailors, and they learned a lesson, now the US is safe from Vietnam. And thanks to Bush (no thanks to Cindy), the US is safe from Hussein. But now it appears there is an internal threat, and I am sure Bush will address it. This inside movement is threatening the US in other ways. Growing hemp…hassling the Bush family…monopolizig the press. Spreading faggits…time to clean up. From coast to coast, a clean up operation. Get men like Guiliani, Chief Schmidig, Tommy Thompson, Mayor Giordano, and it will be cleaned up.

    John H (usa-number1@hotmail.com)

  • Nancy

    John H, you’re so far out on the right you make the John Birch society look like flaming liberals. I think you’re just plain a posturing looney nazi troll flamer. Go back to your ultra-comix & fantasies in which you are actually a man.

  • John H

    Just checking on some of the nonsense that Jennifer Medina is suggesting…where is she? Is she an American? Or is she a subversive agent? Taking a look at beyondtreason.com is like looking the enemy in the face. She may be trying to destroy the country, and the morale of the fighting man. Posting this stuff on your blogsite may make you liable to criminal prosecution. This type of content is not to be tolerated. This is a very real internal threat, one that Homeland Security will be dealing with. Internet terrorism is a crime. One look at that site and any patriotic American will be upset and take action. A few calls to the local, state or federal authorities would be well advised.

    John H (usa-number1@hotmail.com)

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Or he’s employing arch satire, or he’s part of the 33rd-degree conspiracy between KFC and Wal-Mart to replace earthlings with consumerist robots – wait, that already happened, I think

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Sheehan has every right as an American to hold Bush & his cronies accountable. The President serves at the leisure of the people. But his imperial arrogance and lack of empathy are astounding.

    http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2005/08/theres-just-no-conscience-there.html

    Sheehan’s not the only one who’s been dissed by this warmonger. I personally lived through 9/11 – and where the hell is Osama? Alive & well while we send kids off to die for Bush & Co’s greed.

  • John H

    Barbara’s comment above is bordering on criminal; it is clear what her intent is, and what the intent of this website is. Bringing down the US. She says she lived through 9/11? So what? She ought to be glad she is alive, glad for the way in which that was handled. Bush never lost his cool. And where is Osama? People like her have wasted time so he could not be grabbed. More time spent no the towelheads will no doubt bring him in. Or maybe she knows where he is? Maybe he is funding her? How do we know she lived through 9/11? Could well be she is sitting in Afghanistan, wearing a veil (to disguise herself) and writing in this kind of stuff. Yeah, she lived through 9/11, she might have engineered it. These freaks some out of nowhere saying they were all right there, like that spic janitor who claims he heard explosions. guy was probably sleeping cross the river and never went in to work. A buddy punched his time card for him, and he needed to make up this story he is going around the world telling.

    John H (usa-number1@hotmail.com)

  • John H

    Come to think of it, time for a history lesson here boys and girls. Years ago, the first decent President, that is, the first GOP president, Lincoln, sent a letter to a woman who had lost sons in the Civil War. Turns out that one was a deserter and never died. This was in the Jewish World Review, a very well researched periodical, in an article by someone who is editor-in-chief at the Washington Times. Point is, how are we to even know that this Casey guy is not just a deserter? Let’s review the record, taking Cindy’s own words into account: she said she urged him to deseret to Canada at one time. Ah, so maybe he did, and they got it to look like he was KIA, so maybe the family could get some money, and meanwhile, he is up there in Canada (and that counry better watch out, we know they are messing with the troops and hiding deserters). Wouldn’t that be a shame if he was found out? Then she might really lose a son, as they shoot deserters…and protestors, and conspiracy theorists.
    John H (usa-number1@hotmail.com)

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Criminal? really? John your posts are so psychotic in content I have to wonder if you took your medication today or if you are just waiting for Mulder & Scully to find the mothership to beam you back up.

    As a mother myself I totally support Ms. Sheehan. That’s the bottom line. Its about time we held Bush accountable.

  • ss

    ‘s’ is my middle initial, ‘ss’ is so I don’t have a one letter nom de post
    ‘nom de’
    That’s French John H
    Poor French, but still I choose the superior language of a superior people
    YOU HEARD ME RIGHT!!!!
    The French have it ALL yankee dog
    Bow to your French master!
    Bow to the UN and beg it to let you keep yer huntin’ rifle!
    Bow to the French-UN-atheist conspiracy!
    Do it now or I’ll have you arrested!
    Deported!
    Bathed Shaved and Nuetered!
    (seriously, give the bathing part a try.)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    And where is Osama? People like her have wasted time so he could not be grabbed

    Bwahahahahaha! John H blames Barbara in New York City for Osama bin Laden walking free.

    John – does that H stand for Hitler, Harrassment, or Harebrained?

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>This inside movement is threatening the US in other ways. Growing hemp…hassling the Bush family…monopolizig the press. Spreading faggits…time to clean up.< <<

    Now John, take the Reefer Madness tape out of the VCR and have a nice glass of water. The nurse will be along shortly with something not so sharp.

    >Yeah, she lived through 9/11, she might have engineered it. <<

    ROFLMAO! As a harried mother of 2 children I can barely engineer breakfast!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Good Americans don’t grow hemp. Good Americans don’t protest

    Thomas Jefferson did both, Bozo, and recommended both.

    Here’s what “good Americans” do – they call out for what they believe is right.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>was in the Jewish World Review, a very well researched periodical< <

    JWR is a compliation of articles that blowhard Editor culls from other sources. He has problems checking the credentials of his writers and spends most of his time trying to scoop Aish.com and The Jewish Press and dissing Forward.

    >>Bush kept his cool< <

    Or is he just sociopath with no empathy? I tried reading MY PET GOAT and it did nothing for my blood pressure. Even my kids were figgeting.
    *************

    >>An individual should be respected only for how he or she acts.< <

    Larry you are RIGHT ON!!! Respect has to be EARNED. Period!!
    **************

    >>So many have died, so little has been gained.< <

    ss - absoFRIGGINlutely!
    *******************

    Here's something for all of us with a grip on reality: http://www.sweetjesusihatebilloreilly.com/archive/081205.html

    http://falafelfactor.blogspot.com/2004/10/welcome-to-falafel-factor_15.html

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    how are we to even know that this Casey guy is not just a deserter?

    THIS – from a fellow who accuses others of grasping at conspiracy theories?

    Take your meds, John H.

    Casey Sheehan died April 4 in Baghdad when his unit was attacked with rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire. He was assigned to the Army’s 2nd Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

    When you start attacking and smearing the memory of a soldier who fell for YOU, you are not acting as the “good American” you claim to be.

  • MCH

    John H;

    I find your accusation – that a brave soldier killed in action might be a deserter – rather peculiar. If you truly are interested in exposing deserters, check out http://www.awolbush.com.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    MCH, with your military backround I’d think you’d know the difference between being AWOL, being on a leave of absence, and being a deserter.

    Nancy, the John Birchers ARE leftists.

    Dave

  • MCH

    Re comment #230;

    I know the difference, Chickenhawk. According to the UCMJ, 30 or more days AWOL constitutes desertion. I stand by my statement.

  • headed for Bahamas

    ..don’t feed the troll……..

  • http://Shehastheright observe50

    She has the right to do what she is doing. If my child was sent to war and through time I became aware the war was part of an agenda and premeditated I would feel my child was used and died for nothing. God may have said forgive and forget but in these times of ours we are questioning, is there a God. I am proud she is standing up and being counted and saying and doing what many of us feel needs to be done. Mr. President has put us in a pickle of a situation hasn’t he and I would like to ask the question? Would he have done this if his daughter’s were in the service would they be on the front lines? I think not.
    A child is the most precious gift a human can have.

  • billy

    John H

    “Good Americans don’t protest.”

    Thats right, so why were you protesting “no blood for monica” when clinton tried to kill osama before 9-11?

    Because you are not a good american, if you are one at all. and you are a wimp to boot.

  • Nancy

    “John H, I fart in your general direction, [Edited]….”

  • Nancy

    Editor – that was a direct quote from Monty Python’s Holy Grail, for heaven’s sake!

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    It should have been attributed then, so that the tone was different

  • Nancy

    Ah. OK. I stand corrected, as I figured everyone would recognize that one. Guess not. The quote (for those who don’t get it from the few words above) is the French Guard’s taunting of the Knights & King Arthur when they try to storm the castle, in the movie, Monty Python’s Holy Grail. Those of you that know the lines, just use your imaginations. The rest of you are out of luck. ;)

  • Yvonne

    Media spin.

    The article does NOT mention that Cindy wants Bush to publicly explain how and why the invasion/occupation of Iraq are good, decent, noble, and promoting of peace, justice, and security for us and the world. She wants him to ANSWER QUESTIONS! not merely to listen to her.

    Something rather important left out of that summary.

    They let Bush get away with saying he “knows” her postion.

    They bypassed her demand for substantive answers to questions — WHY is the US occupying a (formerly) sovereign nation? killing and torturing it’s people? contaminating their land? literally stealing their resources? getting our own people killed outright – others subjected to depleted uranium contamination, which can kill them slowly or bring them the gift of unpleasantly mutated children, if they dare to reproduce — in the process?

    Who BENEFITS from this carnage and waste? other than Bush’s corporate backers?

    We know what the justifications are NOT:

    WMDs, prevention of terrorism.

    By all the evidence of what has become of Iraqi people, we know it is NOT the White House’s latest claims either, i.e., to promote freedom and democracy and the well-being if Iraqis as part of an effort to make the world more secure for freedom-loving people.

    Cindy is prepared to challenge Bush publicly on that load of (pick your favorite flavour of manure).

    She is asking for Bush to be held accountable , not merely for a chance to tell him what she wants or to vent her grief.

    Of course, we know that if challenged by this woman, doing a job the MEDIA won’t do, Bush would have no satisfactory answers.

  • Nancy

    The media have become a pack of craven, self-important, self-centered bootlickers.

  • Yvonne

    Repeat:

    Of course, we know that if challenged by this woman to answer questions substantively, doing a job the MEDIA won’t do, Bush would have no satisfactory answers for her/us.

    So that public meeting in which she is allowed to question war/occupation policies will not occur.

    But she is shedding light into a great darkness solely by her determination to insist on her/our right to demand the answers.

  • Effendi

    You know, I’m not so much of a blogger but I was interested in hearing public opinion regarding this case because as I stated earlier, I am a US Paratrooper and I am curious as to how Mr. Bush would treat my mom and what all of you people would say about me and my mother if I was killed as was Casey and if my mom wanted answers as does Miss Sheehan. I am SHOCKED and ASHAMED at what I am hearing here, What the HELL is wrong with you people, suggesting that Casey was a deserter and not even Killed? How DARE you even type such words? I have read through all of this and although I do not agree with some of what Dave Nalle suggests, he at least seems to be honest in his desire for the best interest of the American people even if he doesn’t seem to have his priorities straight. I can respect a difference of opinion if presented in a respectful manor however when people bring this Bullshit Partisan hackery into the mix, Are we all AMERICANS here or Not Dammit? This suggestion that those of us who want and DESERVE a Logical explanation are somehow Anti-American or simply bush Haters is ABSURD. Here’s the real crux for all you arm chair warriors out there, How do WE, The actual foot soldiers on the ground set our minds to complete a task when we read some of you people calling US and our Mothers Traitors because we ask why we are dying. I am ALL ABOUT defending America as necessary But I do NOT believe in No Win Scenarios. This situation in Iraq is a NO WIN SCENARIO. I don’t think I will continue reading blogs like this one so much because the disrespect shown here by the chicken-hawk right makes me want to lock and load all right…Do you think we are STUPID, do you think we don’t read your suggestion that our mothers are Anti-American, do you think we don’t read your suggestion that an AMERICAN HERO like CASEY SHEEHAN was a deserter? Listen to me John H, you had better watch what you type when you type it. I do Not care WHAT your agenda is and I do NOT care how much you love mr. bush and are willing to wear out a keyboard for him. You had better remember one thing John H, we are YOU, we are your fathers and brothers and neighbors, and Cindy Sheehan is MY MOTHER Asshole!! Maybe you are just writing inflammatory statements to get a rise out of the “other side” well I got news for you man, I seriously doubt there are Any MUSLIMS OR IRAQI’S posting here. Your disrespect for MCH and rebelyell and other American Service members posting on this blog is starting to really get under my skin. I am going to post my E-mail Address and I EXPECT you to write me and explain to me why you have chosen to write such lies about Cindy and Casey Sheehan. It would be much better if you were to write it publicly here but if you want to go private we can. I will NOT Tolerate ONE MORE WORD of disrespect for this fallen hero or his poor mother. Your tax dollars have trained me to be a dangerous man, you have made enemies of EVERYONE else in the world you don’t want disrespect my fellows or my family and turn your very last friend on you….

    Think before you type!!

    DJEffendi@Hotmail.com

  • MCH

    Nancy;
    You’re my kind of woman!

    DJ Effendi;
    Give ‘em, Hell, bro’! “Support the troops, oppose the policy.”

  • billy

    thanks for some sanity. i dont hear people on the left ever attack soldiers, although the right coninually blames them of it, the left criticizes policies.

    even when the torture came out the left realized it was the policy makers giving orders and not some “rogue troops disobeying orders” like bush said, typically blaming troops for his misstep.

    the right on the other hand jumps on the bandwagon to openly trash soldiers and there families when they arent suiting their political agenda. do they think there will be no consequence to this?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Effendi,

    I hope you do not stop posting to this blog, because your sanity is needed in the swirl of almost unbelievable radical right-wing rhetoric, which is so detached from humanity and all that makes us the free people we are supposed to be here in America.

    I thank you for your service to our country.

    I thank you for speaking your mind with the passion I can see you have for your nation.

    We should all be ONE America – and it deeply saddens me to see these GOONS attempting to keep us divided. (Dave Nalle not included – I appreciate his attempt at reasoned debate, although he has not satisfied the journalist in me by backing many of his speculative statements with hardcore facts).

    I have posted your sentiments at my free-lance blog today. I hope you will have no objection. If you do, please e-mail me.

    -Jude

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    What is it with the Left that puts up platforms for people to spout the party line, and then insists that no discussion be allowed to engage those points?

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    You could easily put “Right” in that statement.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Y’all can safely ignore John H. It’s just a trollbot. I’ve been around the ‘Net long enough to recognize its type.

    It is not a human being, although it may be using human hands to input its comments here. It is a set of programmed reflexes, designed to stir up emotional responses. The best response to it is no response at all. It will never engage in rational debate. It will never produce any logical defense for its claims.

    It can’t be reasoned with, it can’t be bargained with, and it absolutely will not stop, until you ignore it.

  • Nancy

    Effendi – good for you! Bullying, braggarts like John H. are SO brave & full of macho when they know they’re safe behind a keyboard. He’s probably a 450-lb comix geek who fantasizes about being a member of the secret service. No one with any brains or honor would ever denigrate ANY member of the armed forces; the price they pay & the service they give are too high. But some people are idiots: they don’t understand that supporting the troops doesn’t mean buying into the lies the administration shovels out to justify sending our American troops to suffer & die in a middle-eastern pisshole. They don’t understand that we DO love & support our troops – & that’s why we don’t want to see them shot to ribbons in Iraq. Bush is so concerned about the Iraqis, let HIM & his kids go over there in person & serve, as well. Hiding out in his deluxe compound in Crawford, guarded by the Secret Service, suffering no hardships or danger whatsoever, he’s a prime example of a moral & physical coward. No wonder John H. is so devoted to him; they’re two of a kind, seemingly.

  • http://http//www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Effendi- You state you’re a SF Soldier and then you state you’re a paratrooper there’s a subtle distinction between the two sort of like being a Viet Nam vet and a Viet Nam era vet. Poseur.

  • Nancy

    Thank you, Victor. I haven’t been around that long to recognize trolls unless they sign themselves as such & then tell me to get off their bridge. ;)

  • Effendi

    Thank You Jude for your consideration.

    Mr Bambenek, why does everything have to be left or right?. It is as though people gain some kind of personal power by calling themselves this or that. I an An AMERICAN, I agree with some of the logical aspects presented by the right and some by the left. It is as though we as Americans don’t have enough enemies in the world we must go out of our way to find areas of separation within our own ranks. I have had many discussions with “lefties” and “righties” and although there are fundamental disagreement on policy and procedure I always seem to find that both sides really only want the best for themselves and their families. They both desire a good education, they both want a good job and a nice home and for their kids to be successful and to enjoy growing old with the grand kids. I see more separation from the IDEA of separation than from actual personal desires. So many on the right are not so sold on bush’s foreign policy anymore but they see the more liberal ideas of the left as worse than betrayal of their own families by the right. I personally believe that this divide and conquer mentality shown by both sides is the single worst threat to America. I just can’t seem to garner respect for any post that starts with, “The people on the left…” OR “Those people on the right…” Because right off the bat before you even state your opinion you have 50% of the people who love you and 50% that hate you because you fed into the game of left and right. I’m done rambling for now but please keep in mind for the future that when at first you go out of your way to align yourself with a name rather than a belief I have difficulty reading the rest of your post with an honest open mind. We are ALL Americans here, The ONLY traitors among us are those who do not have the best interest of America at heart FIRST. Whether you are on the left OR the right, do yourself a favor and a reality check. Sit down and have a cup of coffee with someone who claims the other side and you will be surprised at how much MORE you have in common than that which separates you. if you are close minded and choose to blind yourself to the fact that we ARE all Americans than you are part of the problem not the solution.

    Effendi!!

  • Effendi

    Hey Joe

    Charlie Company 2nd Battalion 5th Special Forces group Fort Bragg North Carolina.

    Did I say something you disagreed with that made you decide that my credibility was at stake?

    You don’t like the message so you attack the messenger? Is this the way to determine the best route for America.

    What does it really matter to you if I am a drunken bum in the gutter, does it lessen the truth in the words I speak?

    I understand clearly why you feel the need to attack Miss Sheehan and call her son a deserter, it’s nothing human to you, it’s all a political agenda.

    I don’t really care who you think I am or not, if you are incapable of discussion of the issue at hand and feel the need to attack me personally for speaking the truth then nothing said here would make any difference to you anyway.

    Step back a minute, have a cup of coffee and reconsider your position and how you approach it because your inconsequential personal attacks are transparent.

    Please have a nice Day!!

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Dang, I thought 5th Group was at Fort Campbell. But it’s been 10 years since I ran down Long Street, so whatever. From reading your posts, I assumed you were wielding your service as some sort of credential that made you more qualified to address the issue. Sort of like calling names like chickenhawk rather than trying to engage. Additionally, you must have me confused with somebody else, I didn’t say squat about Miss Sheehan or her son.

  • Effendi

    My Apologies Joe,
    I fell into the exact trap I accused others of, grouping and separating. I intentionally only noted in that post of my Jump Status because I wanted to appear as run of the mill as possible. But the bottom line of my anger was directed at those who may disrespect our mothers.
    Both 5th and 7th are indeed at Bragg.
    My “wielding” of service was Only intended to display my position of distaste for those who would treat any of our mothers in this fashion. I would bet that you and I have much in common. I will attempt to practice what I preach in the future and shy from the intentional confusion of name calling it does the issue at hand a disservice and turns otherwise intelligent conversation into a useless pissing match.

    Much Respect!!
    Effendi

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    No worries, did you get a chance to meet Mike Tarlavskey? He and I worked together in Hawaii. An awesome soldier.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    The exact quuote, from Oscar Wilde best I know is, “The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and rarely simple.’


    Believe me, he was only reasonable here because of sheer numbers and knowledge that attacking soldiers writing what he has previously beieved they never would looks very bad. He’s one of the 1 % golden-spooned and best ignored. Unless you have an equal amount of idle time.

  • MCH

    With all due respect to your service, Joe, you yourself have not been above “name-calling” or “weilding your service” to support your own political agenda.

    Just wanna make sure all the windows in your glass house are open.

    signed,
    your favorite “hypocritical remf” Vietnam ERA vet…

  • Effendi

    Hey Joe,
    I cannot say I know the man, was he in Charlie Company?

    I found it funny that you used the term “No Worries” I use that line alot. I’m not even sure where I picked it up. Have a great Weekend!!

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Eff- No, I don’t think he was, he was in 5th Group though. He was KIA a year ago today, actually.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    MCH-
    If the shoe fits… that’s different than name calling in lieu of argument, by the way.

    How come you never volunteered for the SEAL’s?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>WHY is the US occupying a (formerly) sovereign nation? killing and torturing it’s people? contaminating their land? literally stealing their resources? getting our own people killed outright – others subjected to depleted uranium contamination, which can kill them slowly or bring them the gift of unpleasantly mutated children, if they dare to reproduce — in the process?<<

    I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with the situation you’re describing. Currently we’re involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. In neither country are we actively torturing or killing civilians, contaminating the land, seizing resources or mutating children – that’s a good one though, have to give you kudos on coming up with a new loony accusation to throw around.

    Dave

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Getting back to the topic at hand, I watched a bit about Cindy Sheehan and the President on the various cable news networks today. The left has taken a mother’s grief and used it for their own political gain. The right is demonizing a grieving mother. Who loses? Cindy Sheehan and no one else. While I wish the President would take a half hour and sit with Ms. Sheehan in her hour of grief I understand the precarious position the Commander in Chief faces. Regardless of where you stand on the war and the conduct of this Administration, we must never for a minute forget that G.W. Bush remains our President and Head of State and as such is entitled to some modicum of respect.

  • MCH

    We’re in agreement there, Joe, re, “if the shoe fits.” Which is why I have no qualms in calling GW Bush a Deserter.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well said, Silas. If I were Bush I’d meet with her too, but I certainly understand his reluctance given how she’s being used by his political opposition. You can’t help but sympathize with her – really even more since she’s lost a son and is now being victimized all over again by people who claim to be her friends.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    i’m not so certain who all is “using” who there, Mr Nalle…she could just as easily be “using” those folks, as well as the media attention to further her own Goals…

    but folks don’t seem to want to give her intellectual credit for that

    far worse than anyone trying to further her position, are those that are currently demonizing her for taking a stand and excercising her perogative as a Citizen to protest

    that’s FAR fucking worse than getting her some air time…

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Don’t lump me in with those demonizing her. I might demonize her handlers, but not her. She’s got a legitimate issue, even if some can make a reasonable argument it’s already been addressed. Those around her I just see as opportunists, and while she may benefit from the publicity and representation, I think they’re getting far more out of it. It’s really almost like chum in the water to the partisan political sharks.

    Dave

  • with karate ill kik ur ass

    i think president bush is an idiot!

  • gonzo marx

    spoken like someone that never “ate” from the “ricebowl” of Wisdom his Sensei offered…

    but i digress…

    don’t know the Shrub personally, so i refuse to make a judgement on his intellect…all i can go by is what he has done…

    that being said, it does seem that Rove and company have suffered a tin ear in this case…much better to have met quickly before the Story broke wide in the MSM and defused the situation…

    now it’s no win..if they don’t talk to her, they appear callous…if they do, it looks like they caved ot pressure

    time wounds all heels…

    Excelsior!

  • headed for Bahamas

    Silas,

    Respect is earned, not bestowed. I can’t say I respect Hitler, and he was a head of state.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Borrowing from a declining belief system on the verge of collapse: Love the office, hate the office holder. Believe me, I have no use whatsoever for shrub, Dubya, Georgy-Porgie, etc. That doesn’t take away from the fact that he occupies the chair at present. A nation under attack must look toward its leaders and the Head of State for guidance, protection and information. We can debate the pros and cons of the Shrub Presidency until Hillary takes office it will never take away the fact the he is in the Oval Office.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I wish the President would take a half hour and sit with Ms. Sheehan in her hour of grief

    So do I.

    I understand the precarious position the Commander in Chief faces.

    Precarious – hmmmmm – and showing the military families and mothers of this nation that he, as a president who commans respect, migh t give some respect?

    That he might offer his deepest concern for Cindy Sheehan by meeting with her will threaten that precarious position how? By damaging his standing with Freeper-types? I’m not being coy here – I mean this question just as it sounds.

    Regardless of where you stand on the war and the conduct of this Administration, we must never for a minute forget that G.W. Bush remains our President and Head of State and as such is entitled to some modicum of respect.

    He is our elected leader. We live in a democracy and he serves our nation’s interest and he should do so with respect and fairness. I raise my own child to respect the office. I bought him a copy of George Washington’s Rules of Civility a long time ago. Yet, when we see a President trying to fluff off the mother of a fallen soldier, we are respectful, but we are not blind. We respect the office, but not the man, in this instance. Not at all.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I think EFFENDI should run for public office after reading Comment 252.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    What is it with the Left that puts up platforms for people to spout the party line, and then insists that no discussion be allowed to engage those points?

    John Bambenek – what on earth are you talking about?

    If this is not a discussion, I don’t know what it is.

    Unless I’ve missed something, you’ve popped your head in here a couple of times and thrown out one-liners.

    What would you like to discuss?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>That he might offer his deepest concern for Cindy Sheehan by meeting with her will threaten that precarious position how?<<

    But you know as well as I do that she and her handlers don’t really want a meeting with Bush, they want to NOT get a meeting so that they can continue to exploit the situation for publicity. What could Bush possibly say to Sheehan that would satisfy her?

    Dave

  • MCH

    “What could Bush possibly say to Sheehan that would satisfy her?”
    – Dave Nalle

    Perhaps GW might start with this:

    “Mrs. Sheehan, I’m very sorry that I lied and used the false pretense for the invasion of Iraq, that being the existence of weapons of mass destruction there.

    I aslo apologize for sending your son into a situation which I personally evaded, by deserting, when I had the chance during the Vietnam War.”

  • John H

    I go away for a day and all the treasonous snakes come out and play…
    Effendi, a fine name for a US soldier; it is in fact Islamic. Just thought I’d share some information with all of you. Thanks for the e-mail, Effendi, now we can find out your real name. When we do we can ask you about the UCMJ. In it speaking disrespectfully of the Commander-in-Chief is a crime. Go to jail, do NOT PASS GO. TREASON also is a crime. And suggesting that Bush went AWOL, or, as someone put it, deserted, are words that will not fail to reap their reward. Be warned. OK, some things I say are tough, let me relax a bit and explaing. Tough love is what some of you need, and mostl likely, with a bit of it, you could be good Americans and we could all be sharing a good time. Rembember Happy Days and Mr. Rogers’ Neighbourhood? That’s what America is, or was, about. Not Cindy Sheehan and her son, who some guy with an Islamic sounding name is saying really died. OK, I wasnt’t there, so let’s say he did. And if he did, wouldn’t he be proud to see that he died for his Army and his Commander-in-Chief? You out there accusing him of conspiracies and desertion are looking a bit loony. Especially if your friend Effendi there turns out to be some Moslem terrorist. Maybe a plant telling people lies about how the troops hate Bush, when we can read for ourselves how the troops are proud to serve under this President. And you out there suggesting that US presidents grew hemp, what are you smoking? It was outlawed because it caused degenerates to rape white women. So I guess you are saying early president were into rape? OFFENSIVE EFFENDI might be a plant by Al-Qaida. Would it be inappropriate to ask all of you to do your duty to your nation and have this guy either arrested for being Al-Qaida or for being a treasonous troop? Or both? Did he join as a spy, and if so, does he use the name EFFENDI in the service of the US MILITARY? Maybe we need security measures, like a microchip on our troops and on rebels. Make it hard to EFFENDI to operate, and we could protect cyberspace as well. In fact, soldiers were chipped in Vietnam and good job it did. It was a bunch of firnge groups and religious groups that kept the ID system from being used, which could have made a great difference in Ameriac today. OK with you EFFENDI?

  • John H

    PS to comment 277. If EFFENDI wants to e-mail me, he can. Or anyone else as well. It might just be worth noting that I got a lot of VERY POSITIVE feedback for standing up for the US of A.
    John H
    [edited — no email addresses, please]

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Be strong, folks. Remember this is a trollbot we’re facing here. It doesn’t feel pity, or fear, or remorse.

    Conversation with it is futile. Everything it says is calculated to make you angry and goad you into responding.

    Nothing it says will ever be meant as a serious attempt at reasonable discussion. Nothing it says is worthy of a response.

  • John H

    Looks like I hit a nerve; who is this EFFENDI? Victor Plenty (hardly a real name) wants to avoid this crucial issue of national security. Turns out I am rigth, look up “effendi” in a Middle Eastern phrase book. Friend, pal, buddy. You are all his buddies. And you probably believe he is a US soldier…In the meantime, Homeland Securiy will be checking more than just his name in a towelhead phrasebook. They will be on the way to take him to a safe place. No e-mails where he is going…which means we will miss him terribly. No more conspiracy theories, no more dead presidents and their pot parties. Someone was right about some early presidents growing weed, but they were dumb back then. I don’t think this no grows weed.What is the distinction between it and hemp? Hemp is what hippies wear, and weed is what they toke? Never did it myself, never inhaled. Never went off on some stupid protest march.
    John H
    [edited email]

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Someone remind me. Which of these nitwits is the troll, or is it both of them?

    Dave

  • Yvonne

    Dave claims that none of the following questions pertain to reality.

    >>WHY is the US occupying a (formerly) sovereign nation? killing and torturing it’s people? contaminating their land? literally stealing their resources? getting our own people killed outright – others subjected to depleted uranium contamination, which can kill them slowly or bring them the gift of unpleasantly mutated children, if they dare to reproduce — in the process?<<

    Dave is wrong. Iraq is one of the countries he mentioned the US is “involved” in. There, all of the above is true. And our returned soldiers – speaking of those that return alive – and their families already have begun to show the effects of contamination by depleted uranium. Illness, uranium in the blood, and deformed babies, like the ones being born in Iraq, are on the record.

    One Iraqi MD said that Iraqi women in areas of heavy DU contamination no longer ask, “Is it a boy or a girl?” He said, “They ask if it’s normal.”

    Why do Americans not know this? shall we blame the corporate media? or is this ignorance willful?

    One reason I usually post on a UK board, rather then on US forums, is because Americans are uninformed. Many Americans still imagine that the corporate media is informing them.

    The other reason is that so often Americans simply DO NOT want to know. They reject criticism of government policy, no matter how easily substantiated the criticism is, no matter the mass of evidence which they refuse to investigate.

    (Years ago, I told a woman about US sponsored death squads in Central America and the CIA assassination of Salvadore Allende. She said, “I don’t believe that.” I answered, “It’s in the Congressional Record.” She turned and walked away.)

    Telling some Americans about American foreign interventions, is like telling a 5-yr.-old that daddy is a serial killer. They deny. The truth seems fear-provoking and depressing, and admittedly it is very ugly. Too few Americans are adult enough to refuse to shut down in the face of the truth when it hurts.

    In short, they prefer to be “good Germans”.

    Americans have been carefully trained to identify the nation, the people, with the government. The equation is false.

    It is difficult to communicate past determined closed-mindedness and denial. I don’t take it upon myself to educate people who refuse to do their own honest research.

    The subject here is Cindy Sheehan’s desire to confront George W. Bush with her questions. She has done her homework, informed herself.

    I am positive that she would ask for answers to questions similar to the ones in my short list.

  • Yvonne

    Cindy Sheehan’s letter to the Night Line program regarding the brush-off she was given by host, Ted Koppel.

    Get to know her.

  • off call

    Can’t really agree that Effendi is a moslom as she doesn’t wear a veil. That she’s trying real hard to be journalist is rather plain to see. What also is plain to see is that Bush has been meeting with the families of fallen service members discreetly for a rather long time. If were to follow Mrs Sheenan’s advice to get out Iraq now, I’m going to start selling prayer rugs and berka’s because she hasn’t any plan past that other than appeasment and more appeasment.

    Oh and Islam is a religion of peace…hahaha…

  • Yvonne

    I used the tiny URL above, because the long ones always break when sent from my system. The tiny one takes you to the same site, to read Cindy’s letter.

    Cindy is co-founder of Gold Star Families For Peace.

    The web site

  • Yvonne

    Cindy is NOT allowing emotion to impair her logical mind. She accepts her natural emotions with dignity. She has dug away at the truth about the war, its origins and its purpose.

    This is more than many have done in their unthinking, false patriotism – really jingoism.

  • Yvonne

    I respect Cindy. She thinks not solely of her own loss, cheated of the joy of her son. Her compassion is wide enough to include Iraqi victims and the waste of lives of other American soldiers.

    Cindy has the empathy.

    Cindy: “Would we as compassionate Americans have thought that it would have been worth billions and billions of dollars; hundreds of our amazing children dead; tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children dead: a country lying in ruins? I don’t think so.”

    I hope she is right.

    Unlike this noble woman, many Americans don’t seem to mind the killing and maiming of war as long as strangers, Middle Easterners in this case, are doing most of the suffering and dying. Having the emotional strength and integrity that causes one to care about others as oneself is an adult capacity. I’m not necessarily saying that people of other nations are more compassionate. I live here. I talk what I know. Perhaps it is the people of the world who need to grow into their heart-minds and true humanity.

    I’m hoping that American willingness to sic armies on other nations is, through the experience of Iraq and the crucial revelation of those LIES that made excuses for war, being changed to an attitude of resistance to going to war “lightly”.

    By harping on those lies, Cindy is doing a job the media ought to do.

    Indeed, the media ought to have done that job in the lead-up to the war. Anyone who chose to be informed knew WELL BEFORE THE ATTACK ON IRAQ that there were no WMDs, that Iraq in no way threatened the US, and that all the “intelligence” to that effect being cited by our leaders was as phony as a three-dollar bill.

    Caught between betraying leaders, those willing to commit war crimes and genocide – see unprovoked invasion, see DU – for profit – see Vietnam for a past example – and the corporate media mouthpieces that obscured the truth rather than publish it, many decent Americans were misled.

    This is a hard lesson.

    Let’s learn it in one go.

    Now it’s time for Americans to accept moral responsibilities. We must realise we can’t honourably accept the word of either government or the corporate media when they warmonger. We need to seek out the truth.

  • Yvonne

    Ah. Ted Koppel only imagines himself to be a real reporter.

    Cindy:

    “After I expressed myself about the war being based on lies and that the troops should be brought home immediately because the war was based on lies, I was not thanked for my comments, or my son’s sacrifice. He just said to keep the discussion away from emotions.”

    Teddy, darling, when a real-life reporter hears the word “lies” in reference to untruths that influenced the attitudes of Americans regarding the gravest policies, it would be usual for him to ask questions about what is meant. Like, “What lies are you referring to, Cindy Sheehan?”

    Ted would not have passed journalism 101, woud he?

    But he makes an adequate mouthpiece/PR flak for the government. That’s how to hold a good job in the corporate media.

    It is not emotional to accuse someone of lying. That is substantive, yes? and Cindy had a RIGHT to be asked to back that accusation up with facts, which I have no doubt she would have done, right there on national tv.

  • Yvonne

    Cindy’s sign-off, from her letter to Night Line:

    “Your show needs to show both sides of this debate and stop being a propaganda tool for this administration. This is my challenge to you from a true patriot who wants the lies exposed.”

    Cindy “gets” it.

    My renewed hopefulness about my country stems from thinking that she is not alone. There have to be many, many more Americans who have come to understand that our government is truly the betrayer of America. The sooner it is common knowledge, the better.

    At the same time, I worry that what made Cindy face facts about the invasion of Iraq is a re-orientation toward truth that was brought about by her son’s death for lies.

    How many more young people will die before the rest of America “gets” it?

    However it came about, I applaud her courage and will to honesty.

  • Yvonne

    Cindy Sheehan, speaking before an audience of veterans:

    I don’t know this forum’s policy about extensive quotes. I’ll quote a snippet from the above link:

    >> �There, I used the �I� word — imperialism,� the 48 year-old mother quipped. �And now I�m going to use another �I� word — impeachment — because we cannot have these people pardoned. They need to be tried on war crimes and go to jail.� As the veterans in Dallas rose to their feet… <<

    Cindy is not just mouth and hurt feelings. She put herself on the line.

    It’s as if she is being the true hero in her son’s name, the hero that he was cheated of being (however brave and good he may have been) because he unwittingly fought for those lying criminals and not for “a noble cause”.

    Perhaps it is easier for a woman who has already lost her most precious child to find that kind of courage, but if other Americans don’t find it soon, then many more will see their children die in foreign wars and occupations. The neocon cabal is not done, unless we say, “No,” to them. It is time to refuse their wars of conquest.

  • Yvonne

    Effendi

    I have joined your throng of your fans. I’ve already taken the liberty of re-posting some of your comments at my “home” of many years, talk boards hosted by the Guardian Unlimited of the UK.

    I believe I ought to ask your permission before I nick more of your words of wisdom for re-posting.

    If I don’t see a reply on this forum, I shall email, at the address you’ve given above, my request for authorisation to re-post.

    My only point of possible discord with your ideas might center on the notion that America is of more importance in the scheme of the universe than any other nation? yes, we need to hang together, not only with each other. We need to develop connectedness also with those people in other countries that our government consistently asks us to dehumanise and to kill. We “ordinary” Americans have more in common with them than we do with elitist, murderous leaders. Of course, our general and abysmal ignorance of other nations (by design) prevents our realizing that. My lord, we don’t even understand our own culture. We are not taught to think for ourselves, to research, to explore, in our educational systems. Deliberately so. Ignorant people are easy to manipulate.

    But I may have read your attitude wrongly. If so, my apologies.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I hate to be the broken condom at the orgy, but in response to the comments earlier about Depleted Uranium, I have to point out that the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency reports, “based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts.” They go on to say that mere exposure is not enough for DU to have any effect on you. You’d have to eat it or inject it into your blood, and even then the dangers are not from radiation but from metal poisoning, which is easier to treat. This study isn’t just theoretical. DU rounds were used in Yugoslavia and they had good opportunities there for research.

    Dave

  • John

    I’ve been doing a great deal of web reading today and only managed to read about half of this scroll so far, so I apologize in advance if this issue has already been beaten to death further up the page. But this really bugs me.

    Mr. Bush has fed us many sound bites. He has given numerous speeches. He made his case, as he saw it, for a war with Afghanistan. There was no great turmoil in the US over that decision, from either of the predominant political parties. There was no majority of Americans who thought it was a mistake. There is still no majority who think this, not even a meaningful minority. Not Democrats, not Republicans. Not folks who voted for Mr. Bush, not folks who voted against him. The American people accepted the decision to go to war not because Mr. Bush said it was the right thing to do, but because it *was* clearly the right thing to do, unpleasant, but necessary.

    The Iraq war was quite different. Same America, different response. Why? Perhaps because the American people never saw a compelling reason to invade Iraq. Mr. Bush claimed there were WMD in Iraq, a lot of them. Go back and just listen to the claims made by the administration about them. Yet, even as those claims were being made, the weaknesses of the argument, and argument it was, were popping up all over. Even as the administration was telling us that the “tubes” were for centrifuges to make enriched uranium weapons, the scientific community was explaining to us that they were unsuitable for such an application. They were telling us as well, that there wasn’t even enough electrical power availabe in Iraq to opperate such centrifuges.

    Each of the claims Mr. Bush made at the time found skeptical experts stating that Mr. Bush was in error. Did they do this preceding the Afghanistan war? No. Why? There’s only one reasonable answer. They did it because there was ample reason for such skepticism. Left Wing, Right Wing, scientists, State Department officials, even sources from within the CIA, all expressing skepticism, well before the attack.

    The leaders of countries that had stood side by side with us when we went into Afghanistan refused to go in with us on an invasion of Iraq. Why? They told us. They said they saw no reason to invade Iraq. Yet Mr. Bush claimed there was. He claimed there were weapons of mass destruction, and that they were ready to be used, on us.

    He claimed he even knew right where they were to be found. But he would not provide that information to the UN weapons Inspectors scouring Iraq for such weapons. Why was that? Why indeed? Didn’t he want them to be found as soon as possible? Wasn’t he worried that they would be unleashed on us before they could be found by the inspectors?

    Nope. He told us that he couldn’t release the info to the UN for a rather interesting reason, that he needed to protect the the sources of the information. Never mind that we had been assured that an attack could be launched in minutes. He had to protect his sources.

    And so the weeks went by, with us apparently only minutes away from certain destruction all the while, and George calmly and steadily making preparations for a war that China, Russia, Germany, France, etc. saw no reason for. Does that make any sense to you?

    I could go on documenting this sort of goings on, but why? The fact is, that many good Americans who paid closer attention to the news than your typical Fox News listener does, were quite aware that something was amiss. Folks who had stood behind Mr. Bush all the way into Afghanistan were asking questions about Iraq. They got answers they didn’t like.

    Since that less than auspicious beginning, Mr. Bush has never been seriously *questioned* about any of his claims. He has been featured at any number of carefully selected photo ops, given any number of teleprompted speeches, released any number of sound bites, even had a snide comment made about it by John Kerry during the presidential debates. But he has *never* had his feet held to the fire for answers to several simple and obvious questions. And questions there are, more every day.

    Now there is a lady who is determined enough that she will sit in a ditch, through 110 degree heat, through torrential rains, fighting off lack of sleep and fire ants, a mother brave enough to face the possibility that her son died for a lie. And she wants to ask Mr. Bush, face to face, why?

    He owes her an answer. He owes us all an answer.

    I wish I’d said this better, but I’m very tired. And unlike Cindy Sheehan I have my own bed waiting for me.

    Later.

  • Jarhead

    Ok, I’ve just finished up this Blog and I must say, John H is a CIA shill, no one else could be so crass, Prez bush is in it for the MONEY, ( The love of MONEY is the root of ALL evil ) David is quite articulate in his arguments, but thinks the Gov. Doesn’t lie, Effendi is in a place he doesn’t want to be doing something he has No control over, SS has a good Grasp of what is Going on, as are a few others. I was active military between the Iranian embassy crisis and Grenada, I never had to go into combat, I was Lucky, but Even the UCMJ has provision to NOT take unlawful orders, but if the Orders given are not found to be unlawful until after the fact, Who’s to blame??? That the Prez got Elected by the “people” in either election is debatable. Cindy is Correct to take the Prez to task, but ’cause of the “free enterprise” of this Nation, her exploitation is assured. the Amusing ( and sickening ) Aspect of this is that no matter what the outcome, Someone will profit from it. ( weren’t slaves sold for Profit?)we are all blind and enslaved, to some degree, anything more then Basic needs is Chaff

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude Nagurney Camwell

    If were to follow Mrs Sheenan’s advice to get out Iraq now, I’m going to start selling prayer rugs and berka’s because she hasn’t any plan past that other than appeasment and more appeasment.

    I see you bought into that line of President Bush’s and I’m sorry you did.

    What Cindy Sheehan wants is a current meeting with our President. In her pleas, she asks him for an explanation, clarification, honesty, truth, ANYTHING but the spin that has almost 70% of Americans confused and doubtful.

    Cindy’s own words: “I’m going to be out here until one of three things happens: It’s August 31st and the president’s vacation ends and he leaves Crawford. They take me away in a squad car. Or he finally agrees to speak with me. If he does, he’d better be prepared for me to hold his feet to the fire. If he starts talking about freedom and democracy — or about how the war in Iraq is protecting America — I’m not going to let him get away with it.”

    Holding someone’s feet to the fire – how the hell does ANYONE derive the message “Get out of Iraq” from that?

    I’ll tell you how.

    I was trying to find a way to express the way I felt after hearing the President’s raising of “Get out of Iraq now” as if it was Cindy Sheehan’s primary agenda. I thought to myself, “He isn’t talking to this woman’s heart or addressing her individual concerns and questions – he is talking to what he sees as a “focus group.” To President Bush, it’s apparent that the “focus group” is the enemy. Once you associate yourself with it, you are no longer a thinking being – you are an automaton who thinks in lockstep with the rest of the “focus group.”

    It’s all projection – Bush supporters actually work that way, doing the lockstep march, so they think any dissenter does, too. How unfortunate for the President to make such a big error in judgement in the case of Cindy Sheehan. Every Soccer Mom in America is looking at him and waiting to see how he conducts himself. I think it’s important to trust that your president is a gentleman (or lady) and that he can rise to any level and look any American in the eye and make them understand that it’s all been worth it – then offer an embrace – some warmth – some sign of genuine human compassion. I keep asking myself, “Why? Why can’t this fellow do it?”

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    John H –

    Take your meds, honey.

    The fine young men in the clean white coats from “Homeland Security” will be around anytime now – with the straitjacket.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >> Every Soccer Mom in America is looking at him and waiting to see how he conducts himself.< <

    I doubt they're as naive as you think.

    >> I think it’s important to trust that your president is a gentleman (or lady) and that he can rise to any level and look any American in the eye and make them understand that it’s all been worth it – then offer an embrace – some warmth – some sign of genuine human compassion.< <

    Which he already did, as has been well documented here by others.

    >> I keep asking myself, “Why? Why can’t this fellow do it?”<<

    Because it’s not what she’s looking for. She’s looking for a way to embarass him. She already got the nice words and the hug. Now she wants revenge and has brought the political and media vultures along to feed on his corpse.

    Dave

  • http:/iidybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I have to point out that the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency reports, “based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts.”

    Maybe we should let Dave be a guinea pig.

    It’s really a matter of who you choose to believe. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of probability that depleted uranium will cause cancer.

    Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon’s Depleted-Uranium Project, says the USA and UK have covered up the hazards related to DU, despite the rising death toll among allied troops who fought in the Gulf war from illnesses linked to DU exposure, including Gulf War syndrome.

    Dozens of troops stationed in Bosnia and Kosovo have come down with leukemia or other cancers. Many others are sick. They believe the cause of this outbreak of illness is depleted-uranium pollution from DU shells fired from U.S. planes during the war against Yugoslavia.

    So – no one knows for certain, but how much do we know about cancer, really? Not a hell of a lot. If we knew, we’d know where it stemmed from and how to cure it. We don’t.

    I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be a DU test-rabbit and I wonder if Dave would. He sounds pretty confident all safe and snug in his home far from the perils of war and the consequences of nuclear weapons.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Jude said:>> Every Soccer Mom in America is looking at him and waiting to see how he conducts himself.< <

    Dave said:
    I doubt they’re as naive as you think.

    So, Dave, in essence, you just called every soccer mom in America who thinks President Bush shoudl meet with a mother of a fallen soldier “NAIVE.”

    Because I surely didn’t.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Which he already did, as has been well documented here by others.

    Not documented well by you, Dave, as we’ve discussed time and time again.

    Well-documented by the WOMAN who was actually there at the time of that first meeting? Yes. I’ll concur with you on that one. Anything else is hearsay.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Maybe if we can get Effendi into public office; where someone of his caliber belongs; he can help increase the services for the mentally ill – and then we can put John right next to Dubya in Nov. 2008.

    – The woman’s son DIED serving his country.
    – She wants to look the Commander in Chief in the eye and talk to him
    – She doesn’t want to be a sound byte and a photo op

    What’s the beef?

    The only beef I see is that Bush & his mob handled all this stuff WRONG WRONG WRONG. Cindy Sheehan decided not to play their game and as a mother myself I say – PARTY ON CINDY!

    Now… Where’s Guiliani to advise the Chimp-in-Charge on how to handle the death of your constituents and their family members?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Jude, I didn’t say I’d documented it. It’s documented by Cindy Sheehan’s own statements after the fact. That’s good enough for me.

    >>So, Dave, in essence, you just called every soccer mom in America who thinks President Bush shoudl meet with a mother of a fallen soldier “NAIVE.”<<

    No, read more carefully. I said that if they believe what you think they do that they are naive, but that I – unlike you – think they are not naive.

    Got it?

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    No, read more carefully. I said that if they believe what you think they do that they are naive, but that I – unlike you – think they are not naive.

    Dear God, Dave, that makes no sense whatsoever.

    You have no defense on this one.

    You are saying that if they agree with me – that Bush should meet with the mother of a fallen soldier – they are naive.

    There can be no other conclusion drawn.

    If you want to retract the statement, be my guest.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Some words about the sleazeballs of the right-wing mouth machine

    Cindy Sheehan says:“Still putting out the O’Reilly fires of me being a traitor and using Casey’s name dishonorably, my in-laws sent out a press statement disagreeing with me in strong terms; which is totally okay with me, because they barely knew Casey. We have always been on separate sides of the fence politically and I have not spoken to them since the election when they supported the man who is responsible for Casey’s death. The thing that matters to me is that our family — Casey’s dad and my other 3 kids are on the same side of the fence that I am.

    November 2, 2004 was not George Bush’s accountability moment: today is. We are finished allowing him to get away with deceiving the American public and abusing his power.

    We are mad as hell and we’re not taking it anymore.”

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Jude, you might want to read what you actually wrote and compare it with what you now seem to think you wrote.

    “Every Soccer Mom in America is looking at him and waiting to see how he conducts himself.”

    When you say this you are saying that they are naive enough to base their opinions of Bush on how he reacts to this calculated set-up by extreme left operatives and that they are too dumb to see through the manipulation and are therefore completely taken in and waiting with baited breath for Bush to meet with her.

    Never mind. Maybe you’re the one who’s naive.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Dave:

    >>”Every Soccer Mom in America is looking at him and waiting to see how he conducts himself.”

    When you say this you are saying that they are naive enough to base their opinions of Bush on how he reacts to this calculated set-up by extreme left operatives and that they are too dumb to see through the manipulation and are therefore completely taken in and waiting with baited breath for Bush to meet with her.<<

    Maybe some of them are naive – Bush has dug himself into such a deep dark hole here I doubt he will EVER meet with her. Everything is about spin with him & his cronies and this is beyond spinnable.

    But Dave YOUR statement makes a blatant presumption of naivety on the part of Soccer Moms going IN. You can paint everyone with the same brush….
    …unless of course your a radical ring winger.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    My assumption was that Soccer Moms, by and large, are capable of thinking for themselves – that’s a broad brush statement I’m willing to stand by.

    Dave

  • John

    Shots have been fired at Camp Casey. It looks like it was just a threatening gesture by a property owner down at the edge of his property firing into the air. Lots of folks in uniforms with him now. Nobody hurt. Life gets interesting.

  • http://adamash.blogspot.com adam

    Dave, are you trying to come at Cindy Sheehan by saying she’s being used? This lady is not for manipulation, as far as I can see — not by “extreme left groups,” or by the president, O’Reilly, Koppel, or you. I think she’s leading the charge here, clearly. She’s the one doing the media manipulation, and thank God for that. She’s terrific at it, and taking up a great slack. Very few politicians have had the balls to stand anti-war. Any questions you have about a conspiracy of “extreme left groups” you should address to her.

  • http://adamash.blogspot.com adam

    What Cindy Sheehan has brilliantly done is make the political all too personal. Her challenge to Bush is on a personal level — grieving mom to democratic leader of the country. Soccer moms are watching to see how he reacts on a personal level, and he is failing the test. Forget about whether he should/shouldn’t, whether he’s boxed in, due respect we should have for the office, etc. He is failing on a personal level, as a human being. Her revealing this is what gives her challenge its power. It’s the biggest fucking PR disaster for Bush ever, and he’s the one responsible for the disaster, because he doesn’t know how to meet her challenge. The poor bastard stands exposed for what and who he is. Everyone will decide for themselves who that is. But there have to be millions of soccer moms who are changing their minds about Bush real fast.

  • http://google.ca elton jude aguiar

    either for or against something not in between

  • Effendi

    Good Morning.

    As I stated earlier, I believe it to be against productivity for US Americans to snipe at each other regarding inconsequential issues such as a name. I feel it much more important that we discuss issues that involve the security of our great country as well as the security of our troops. I will not get into a squabble with John H and his paranoid rhetoric as it has no pertinence. I will make a couple of comments regarding the personal attacks written.

    [i]
    Effendi, a fine name for a US soldier; it is in fact Islamic. Just thought I’d share some information with all of you.
    [/i]

    Effendi actually means “Sir” in Turkish or “Master”. It also means “Orange” in Arabic. But thank you for sharing your “information” with us. I can only suggest that you research something a little further before you hit post. I’m sure you have a dictionary available to you. Not that it means anything but I was given the nickname many years ago in regards to my insistence of the “Mastered Quality” of the music I produce. Nothing to do whatsoever with my religious or political beliefs.

    [i]
    now we can find out your real name. When we do we can ask you about the UCMJ.
    [/i]

    What would you like to know? Any information you require regarding our Military code of Justice is readily available on line also.

    [i]
    In it speaking disrespectfully of the Commander-in-Chief is a crime. Go to jail, do NOT PASS GO. TREASON also is a crime.
    [/i]

    Thank you for your information but I must remind you that respect is never taken it is EARNED.
    I have respect for the priesthood also but a great loss of respect for those who Individually use their power to molest children. Does this mean that I disrespect ALL PRIESTS?…NO, it means simply that a person must live up to their calling and earn the respect they desire. Just because big money and lobbyists were able to put “Their man” in the white house does NOT automatically earn my respect. Mr Bush has the obligation to you and I and every American to constantly PROOVE that he is doing things in the best Interest of the United States and unfortunately there are a litany of situations that suggest otherwise.

    [i]
    And suggesting that Bush went AWOL, or, as someone put it, deserted, are words that will not fail to reap their reward. Be warned.
    [/i]

    As was so proven to Dan Rather and CBS. I will not get into my personal feelings regarding bush’s service to his country or lack thereof suffice it to say that I am not personally satisfied with the answers provided by his handlers. As a Soldier I have to ask myself if I believe my commander in Chief would “Have my back” in a life threatening fire fight and so far I am not convinced that mr Bush would defend me as I would him.

    [i]
    Tough love is what some of you need, and most likely, with a bit of it, you could be good Americans and we could all be sharing a good time.
    [/i]

    Thank You but I assure you that I AM a very good proud American.
    If I read through the lines of that sentence I hear you saying that as “Good Americans” we would Never question the intent of our superiors. Well as a Good American who has the best interest of my fellow Americans in mind I feel it my duty to ensure the safety of my fellows and my country. I don’t claim to understand the whole picture but I’m not feeling at ease with our current course either. Lying down and accepting death is just not MY version of what makes a “Good American”.

    [i]
    Remember Happy Days and Mr. Rogers’ Neighbourhood? That’s what America is, or was, about. Not Cindy Sheehan and her son,
    [/i]

    I’m sorry but what world do you live in?
    You are suggesting that America is better portrayed by a television show as opposed to the death of an American Trooper and the mourning of his anguished mother? John I have to really disagree with you on this point. Leave it to Beaver does not represent the freedoms we hold dear in America over the lives of tens of thousands of our fathers and grandfathers that fought and died in WWII and the wars before that.

    [i]
    who some guy with an Islamic sounding name is saying really died.
    [/i]

    At the top of this post you say, “Effendi is in FACT an Islamic name”, now you say it is an, “Islamic sounding name”. Semantics maybe but it suggests your willingness to hit post regardless of research, honesty or truth.
    it is Not MY report that Casey Sheehan died, I was not there, but EVERYONE else in his life from his Commander to his fellow troops to his mother to his friends all claim he died….except you. Who am I supposed to believe, Everyone else or you?

    [i]
    OK, I wasn’t there, so let’s say he did. And if he did, wouldn’t he be proud to see that he died for his Army and his Commander-in-Chief?
    [/i]

    I did not know him so I do not know. BUT I have to think that he would not be happy with how some speak of his mother at this point.

    [i]
    You out there accusing him of conspiracies and desertion are looking a bit loony.
    [/i]

    YOU John H, are the ONLY one I have heard make such an accusation. You and THAT ACCUSATION is why I am posting on this Blog. If there are others making such suggestions that you felt the need to repeat here then I have not read them although I do not spend much time “blogging” I implore you to be a better man than those who would defile the memory of a Proud Young American who sacrificed his life following orders.

    [i]
    Especially if your friend Effendi there turns out to be some Muslim terrorist.
    [/i]

    Where does such a statement come from?
    What have I ever said or suggested that I might be some “Muslim Terrorist”?
    You should be much more careful about accusations that you throw around. If I were a Muslim terrorist I’m sure I could find better things to do on a Sunday morning then defending the honor of a fallen fellow soldier as well as the honor of his mother.

    [i]
    Maybe a plant telling people lies about how the troops hate Bush,
    [/i]

    Were in anything that I have written do you find the suggestion that I hate bush?
    I have suggested that I may not trust the man and his motives but I have never suggested that I hate him.

    [i]
    when we can read for ourselves how the troops are proud to serve under this President.
    [/i]

    As this thread proves, people can type anything they want to at any time and at any place. I ASSURE you that just like in the real world there is no one blanket that covers all thoughts and opinions including those of American service members. Everything that any of us as individuals believe are based on the experiences we live in our lives.

    [i]
    And you out there suggesting that US presidents grew hemp, what are you smoking? It was outlawed because it caused degenerates to rape white women. So I guess you are saying early president were into rape?
    [/i]

    Where does THAT come from and what has that got to do with the situation we are discussing and may I ask, just how old you are anyway? There appears to be some disconnect in your associative thought process.

    [i]
    OFFENSIVE EFFENDI might be a plant by Al-Qaida.
    [/i]

    Yes I suppose that is true but such paranoid statements only suggest a cry for Zyprexa from you.

    [i]
    Would it be inappropriate to ask all of you to do your duty to your nation and have this guy either arrested for being Al-Qaida or for being a treasonous troop? Or both? Did he join as a spy, and if so, does he use the name EFFENDI in the service of the US MILITARY? Maybe we need security measures, like a microchip on our troops and on rebels. Make it hard to EFFENDI to operate, and we could protect cyberspace as well. In fact, soldiers were chipped in Vietnam and good job it did. It was a bunch of firnge groups and religious groups that kept the ID system from being used, which could have made a great difference in Ameriac today. OK with you EFFENDI?
    [/i]

    The above rambling nonsense is why I do not usually post on line. Or state my opinion to others whom I do not know.
    You never really now who the person on the other end is and whether or not their mental capacity is worthy of carrying on Intelligent discourse.

    As far as who I am, I have provided the web master of this site with my personal information and would be glad to defend my beliefs or comments with any rational others here. It is a beautiful day today and I am going to enjoy it.

    Effendi!!

  • gonzo marx

    oh Effendi..you have fallen prey to a troll-bot who is attempting arch-satire

    best bet is to just ignore it..Reason is not in it’s programming..

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • MCH

    Effendi;
    Glad to see you were not deterred by the trollbot, your sensible input is a breath of fresh air. You’ve created quite a following here on BC in a short time (I, too, am a fan, by the way). You have no need to apologize to anyone, in my opinion. And Gonzo, Jude and Victor are correct – debating with the likes of John H is like pissing into the wind. Keep on keepin’ on, Bro’!
    – MCH, USN ’70-74

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Never mind. Maybe you’re the one who’s naive.

    Now, Dave, let’s not get ad hominem here. Resorting to disrespect won’t get you any respect from me. I’ve entertained your thoughts with basic courtesy. Please do the same. I had every right to conclude that you are calling any soccer mom who thinks the president should give Cindy a few moments of his vacation time “NAIVE”.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    When you say this you are saying that they are naive enough to base their opinions of Bush on how he reacts to this calculated set-up by extreme left operatives and that they are too dumb to see through the manipulation and are therefore completely taken in and waiting with baited breath for Bush to meet with her.

    Dave,

    I find you typical of many who debate with me on the issues. Having put your foot squarely in your mouth, you attempt to remove it by spinning all the more.

    Look at all the words you just “read” into my simple statement.

    I’m not saying they’re “NAIVE” – YOU are placing those words into what you are “reading” into my statement that said no such thing.

    Anyone can see that your method of debate is intellectually disingenuous.

    I will not debate based upon thoughts which I have never conveyed.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>You are saying that if they agree with me – that Bush should meet with the mother of a fallen soldier – they are naive.

    There can be no other conclusion drawn.<<

    OMG you actually got it right, more or less. If they thought that they’d be naive, but they aren’t naive, so most of them don’t think it.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>ave, are you trying to come at Cindy Sheehan by saying she’s being used? This lady is not for manipulation, as far as I can see — not by “extreme left groups,” or by the president,<<

    So you’re not actually watching ANY of the coverage of this event? You haven’t seen the finely orchestrated press interviews, talking head show appearances, and the output of her army of bloggers and handlers? Do you live in a cave?

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I find you typical of many who debate with me on the issues. Having put your foot squarely in your mouth, you attempt to remove it by spinning all the more.<<

    You appear to be a very, very confused person.

    Dave

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    Bush alread met with Cindy once.

    Casey Sheehan was 21 when he enlisted in the army–a fully emancipated adult.

    This man, Casey Sheehan, was 24 when he re-enlisted in the Army and did so AFTER the war in Iraq had begun. He did so knowing full well he would probably get sent over there.

    Casey Sheehen was 24 when he VOLUNTEERED to go on the rescue mission where he lost his life.

    Cindy wants to know “what the noble cause” is? The President has stated it repeatedly. Maybe she should take the wax out of her ears.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    It’s interesting that Casey Sheehan so clearly understood what he was doing and why he was doing it. One has to wonder why he was never able to convey that same sense of mission and dedication to his mother.

    Dave

  • http://adamash.blogspot.com adam

    Cindy seems as dedicated to a sense of mission as anybody out there, Dave, for chrissake. Cheap shot, my man, unworthy of you.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I didn’t say she wasn’t dedicated to her mission, Adam. I just wonder if her son would really appreciate what she’s doing given the position he clearly stated by his own actions. It’s all speculative, but I wonder what their relationship was like when he was alive.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>Casey Sheehan so clearly understood what he was doing and why he was doing it< <

    Really? Wow Dave you have a new calling!! TALKING TO THE DEAD!!

    WHY he was doing it? or what he was TOLD was the reason? THEREIN lies the HEART of what is driving Cindy Sheehan for answers. Cindy wants to give the President her "victim impact statement" - just like any VICTIM. The law in this country allows those left behind to do that - why can't the PRESIDENT???

    Instead of speculating about Cindy's motives and communing with her dead son read what she had to say herself just yesterday.

    I think Arianna Huffington GETS IT RIGHT in this article about Sheehan. And her detractors want to point fingers at everything and everyone rather than the ISSUE AT HAND.

    And notice how they have rolled from John Bolton to the Rove/Plame debacle to this (and Bolton slipped in under our doors anyway??) This Adminstration seems to careen from one disaster to another with no clear plan. Just photo ops & sound bytes.

    Robert Freeman’s latest piece puts it all in perspective, in my opinion:

    “Stay the course” is not a plausible, not even a remotely sensible strategy.”

    “Cindy Sheehan is really the child in the fairy tale who declared that the emperor had no clothes. It was his unadorned innocence against the arrogant casuistry of the local pundits that finally awoke the town to what everybody could see but were too embarrassed to admit: they had been taken.”

    This is not an us or them time, its time we stood up for ONE AMERICA. Our founding fathers had the guts to call it as they saw it, and so does Cindy Sheehan.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Really? Wow Dave you have a new calling!! TALKING TO THE DEAD!!

    WHY he was doing it? or what he was TOLD was the reason? < <

    The reason was that he was a soldier and was doing his duty. He had already been to Iraq and reenlisted to go there again. He certainly knew what he was doing.

    >>THEREIN lies the HEART of what is driving Cindy Sheehan for answers. Cindy wants to give the President her “victim impact statement” – just like any VICTIM. The law in this country allows those left behind to do that – why can’t the PRESIDENT???< <

    What on earth are you talking about? She's not a crime victim appearing in court.

    >>This is not an us or them time, its time we stood up for ONE AMERICA. Our founding fathers had the guts to call it as they saw it, and so does Cindy Sheehan.<<

    This would be humorous if it wasn’t so sad. Cindy Sheehan is a victim and tool of the people who are tearingthis country apart to advance a parisan agenda. Our founding fathers were dead set against this kind of self-serving opportunism.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Bush alread met with Cindy once.

    Where’s the news here? Everyone knows this – it’s no secret. We’ve known for over a week now – because CINDY SHEEHAN told Joe Hagin and Stephen Hadley herself when Bush sent them to do his bidding when they met with her in Crawford last weekend.

    Casey Sheehan was 21 when he enlisted in the army–a fully emancipated adult.

    And Cindy Sheehan will always be his MOTHER.

    Cindy wants to know “what the noble cause” is?

    Yep. So do 70% of Americans.

    The President has stated it repeatedly.

    Oh yes- he has repeated one reason after another after another after another – and he has given us all the slogans and talking points and has promised to stick with a course that 70% of America sees as slipping away from “progress”. It hasn’t satisfied 70% of America – and it surely hasn’t satisfied Mrs. Sheehan.

    Maybe she should take the wax out of her ears.

    Dissing the mom of a loyal American soldier who has died for you? Do you realize you’re in a rapidly shrinking minority?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    You haven’t seen the finely orchestrated press interviews, talking head show appearances, and the output of an army of bloggers and handlers? Do you live in a cave?

    Are you talking about the lead-up to the Iraq war when all we heard was propaganda from the Bush administration?

    Oh! Right.

    You’re talking about the MOM of a FALLEN SOLDIER.

    We know what ugly propaganda and power-abuse can come from a MOM of a FALLEN SOLDIER!

    Right on, Dave! Keep speaking truth to power, man! It’s like David and Goliath, already!

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara
  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “Where’s the news here? Everyone knows this – it’s no secret. ”

    Yet everyone is running around as if he has never met with her.

    “And Cindy Sheehan will always be his MOTHER.”

    And as a mother, she should probably have realized her little boy had grown up to be a man and make decision on his own.

    “Oh yes- he has repeated one reason after another after another after another ”

    Actually all the reasons were given before the war began.

    “and it surely hasn’t satisfied Mrs. Sheehan.”

    Mrs Sheehan doesn’t have to be satisfied. Casey Sheehen did and it appears he was.

    “Dissing the mom of a loyal American soldier who has died for you?”

    You haven’t got a clue who you are talking to, do you?

    “Do you realize you’re in a rapidly shrinking minority?”

    Around these parts I am not.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    This blogger was right – instead of doing the stand up thing – the FantasticBushDanceMachine has released its vitriol alllllll over Cindy Sheehan.

    Cindy Sheehan doesn’t seem to be someone easily used & manipulated as the right would have you believe.

    I must call to mind other Republicans who had the task of speaking to family members left behind and the public and what they said:

    “Former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, Gov. George Pataki and others gave readings with a clear theme � the inexpressible grief of losing a child. Pataki quoted President Dwight Eisenhower: “There’s no tragedy in life like the death of a child. Things never get back to the way they were.”

    So yes, Cindy Sheehan is very much going through deep personal trauma much like a VICTIM and she has EVERY RIGHT to have a spontaneous and personal dialogue with the man who sent her son off to war; i.e. give her ‘victim impact statement.’ Maybe this isn’t a court of law but it sure as hell is the court of the People who live, work and even DIE for this country. That includes Ms. Sheehan.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “I must call to mind other Republicans who had the task of speaking to family members left behind and the public and what they said:”

    I must call to mind that Bush has already spoken to Cindy.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Yet everyone is running around as if he has never met with her.

    I don’t think anyone is misled or disillusioned with the fact that there was already one meeting with the Sheehans. You continue to bring it up like it’s the leak of leaks. Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. She knows it now. And a whole lot more. We all do.

    And as a mother, she should probably have realized her little boy had grown up to be a man and make decision on his own.

    He did make a decision on his own. That isn’t the point. The grown man, aged 24, who died, has a mother (who will always be his mother), and she has questions she’d like to have answered ..and you can flap your jaws about her son having been a grown-up until Armegeddon, but it won’t take away the moral authority of a fallen soldier’s mother.

    You haven’t got a clue who you are talking to, do you?

    You could be the King of Siam for all I know. If you want to reveal something about yourself, please do. I don’t wish to play guessing games.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    From Rising Hegemon:

    pointing out this post from diarist Dansinc at the Daily Kos:

    My wife has a job that requires her to work in Sam’s Warehouse & today she came in contact with Sen. Jim DeMint, and one thing she asked him was his opinion on the “lady down in Texas” as I think she recounted it.

    His answer: “those people are the enemy”.

    James DeMint by the way, in doing some googling, appears to have NEVER SERVED in the Armed Forces.

    He has FOUR children, to my knowledge, known of whom have served in the Armed Forces.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude
  • gonzo marx

    just closing the italics tag…

    once again…soOOOOooOOOooo wrong to bash on this woman, and all that is accomplished by doing so is alienating those that woudl otherwise have not noticed..

    smooth..

    /end sarcasm

    Excelsior!

  • gonzo marx

    dreck..didn’t work?

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    “THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE ENEMY”

    ahahahahaha!! that’s rich. What a jerk! I thought Bush was “a UNITER not a DIVIDER” yet he and his sycophants seem to have a well oiled US vs. THEM mentality.

    THOSE PEOPLE? I guess he needs to Google the word CONSTITUENTS?

    Oh and btw Cindy’s post today says Bush told reporters he is ‘getting on with his life.’

    WTF? what life? isn’t he the Chimp in Charge? isn’t this PART OF HIS JOB?

    the horror the horror of knowing this is our Commander in Chief!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Where to start. First off, you believe things that are in DailyKos, so everything you believe is now suspect. Second, what DeMint’s service in the military or lack there of or for that matter the status of his kids as far as military service, have with his right to express an opinion? Most people in the US today have not served in the military. Shall we gag them and take away their right to vote?

    As for Cindy Sheehan, I think her situation is pretty clear by now. She’s a grieving mother who has found empowerment in forming an alliance with opportunistic political operatives who are making it possible for her to capitalize on her grief and use it as a weapon in seeking revenge against the person she’s been convinced is ultimatedly responsible for her son’s death.

    >>Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. She knows it now. And a whole lot more. We all do.<<

    We do? All the evidence I’ve seen suggests that there was at least reasonable suspicion that there were WMDs in Iraq and it’s never been definitively demonstrated that all of those WMDs were destroyed. Strangely they keep popping up in dribs and drabs. Yes, the country was not brimming with WMDs, but that was only one of more than a dozen items cited in the authorization for the use of military force. The fact is we didn’t go to war over WMDs, we went to war because we had had enough of Saddam Hussein.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I think it’s important for me to be thoughtful and sensitive to those who have got something to say.”

    “But,” he added, “I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life.”

    Casey can’t go on with his life, and Cindy’s will never have a sense of balance without her son – especially knowing the President had every opportunity to meet her once more when she pleaded with him – and he just didn’t care enough.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara
  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Jude, how do you know that Bush doesn’t care ‘enough’? Do you have a hotline to his brain? For all you know he’s sitting in his ranch house weeping over the injustice of not being able to meet with Cindy Sheehan because of the political ammunition it would give his enemies and the impracticality of meeting a second time with every bereaved parent.

    From what I’ve seen Bush has done far more in the area of meeting with the parents of dead soldiers than any president in recent years, and yet he gets no credit for that at all.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>How does a sociopath without empathy handle that? they RUN!!! they RUN and smear the poor person who just wanted CLOSURE. < <

    And so this makes him a sociopath? Like the Son of Sam and the BTK Killer? And what has Bush or any member of his staff or administration actually said to 'smear' Cindy Sheehan? Come on, how did he smear her? Let's hear it.

    >>hmmm so we blanket-believe the DailyKos, and Mr. Nalle you apparently believe every Republican Talking Point in the book. < <

    I have yet to actually see a Republican talking point. I just think someone needs to stick up for Bush who's in a difficult situation, under attack by ruthless and manupulative people, and can't speak up for himself because of who and where he is.

    >>And that’s your right. But labelling me, shame-dumping on me and other posters and name calling will not bring Cindy the meeting she deserves.>>

    This is a situation where one more meeting with her is too many and a thousand more could never be enough. Bush can’t bring her son back. He already spoke with her. What more can he actually do? He didn’t gain magical powers in the last two years. If she really wanted to meet with him she’d send away all of the handlers and activists and just ask for a private one-on-one meeting. Trying to essentially extort a public meeting out of him under very negative circumstances is guaranteed not to get her what she says she wants – though it gets the bush haters exactly the ammunition they want for more attacks.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude
  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>There’s a 500-page-plus report [.pdf] on how we were bamboozled into believing that Saddam Hussein had “weapons of mass destruction.” < <

    Bingo. Earlier you said 'Bush lied' about WMDs. When the fact is that Bush was seduced into accepting bad data that fit his expectations. In fact, we ALL were. Most people were quite willing to accept that a homicidal dictator would ahve WMDs. It just made sense.

    >>It concluded that the intelligence (which was later found to have been fixed and massaged to fit the war policy – see Downing Street memo leaks) was “dead wrong.” < <

    You realize that the way you have characterized the content of the Downing Street memo is in direct contradiction to the explanation given by all of the people actually involved in the briefings which it came out of, right?

    >>It’s such a mess, Dave. I’m afraid that if some of you do not look at matters with eyes wide open and consider all points of view, your blinders will forever divide you from your fellow Americans.<<

    The surreal thing is that this is exactly the problem that I see with those writing at DailyKos, and with your comments here. You have lots of fire, emotion and righteous anger, but you’ve apparently either not understood or never been exposed to some of the basic facts of the situation.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    What more can he actually do?

    MEET WITH HER – PRIVATELY.

    He didn’t gain magical powers in the last two years

    And we’re losing control of a war we now know was never necessary, the way it was approached, the reasons we were given, the urgency that was falsely pounded into our heads.

    Cindy Sheehan, by simply being a mother of a fallen soldier, should have had the full respect of the President. I’ll wager he secretly despises her, even though his lips say otherwise. As I said before, i believe he sees her as part of a “focus group” instead of who so many people see her as: a Mom of Casey, who died for America. To President Bush, it’s apparent that the “focus group” is the enemy. Once you associate yourself with it, you are no longer a thinking being – you are an automaton who thinks in lockstep with the rest of the “focus group.”

    How unfortunate for him – and his sinking popularity with average citizens.

    Pretty soon even moderate Republicans will be smeared as a “focus group”. Not radical enough or blind enough.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    I defer to great minds than myself on the sociopath issue:

    Here

    Here

    and Here

    Sociopaths pass as ordinary folks. Psychopaths rarely do.

    “sociopath” n (ca 1944): PSYCHOPATH

    “psychopath” n (1885) a mentally ill or unstable person; esp: a person
    having a psychopathic personality”

    “sociopathic” adj (1944): of, relating to, or characterized by asocial or
    antisocial behavior or a psychopathic personality”

    “psychopathic personality” n (ca 1923) 1: an emotionally and behaviorally
    disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except for
    the individual’s social and moral obligations . . . .”

    And finally I refer to Justin Frank, the author of “Bush on the Couch.” Frank is a practicing psychoanalyst in Washington, and is on the faculty of the George Washington University Medical School. He used applied psychoanalysis to analyze Bush.
    He notes that psychoanalysts and psychiatrists who are not very familiar with applied psychoanalysis feel it should only be used on foreign leaders…which is how we know that Saddam Hussein is also a psychopath.

    Here is an excerpt from an interview with Frank and a publication called ‘Executive Intelligence Review':

    EIR: One of the things that we’ve focussed on a great deal, more from the standpoint of a political assessment of the Administration, is that Bush seems to have developed a rather deep psychological dependence on Vice President Cheney as the person to make most of the really tough decisions in the Administration. Would you share that view?

    Frank: I don’t entirely share that view, because my view is that he is a
    puppet who chose his puppeteers, so in that sense he is dependent on him,
    but in another sense I think he is dependent on him for supporting his
    decisions, but I think that Bush makes the decisions. I think that he is
    dependent on Cheney for thinking them through in public, and for
    articulating them. And for being the kind of public, outspoken person, and
    so he had to go with Cheney to the 9/11 Commission. And that’s about
    dependency, I agree with you. But my sense is that he really knows what he
    wants to do once he hears stuff, and he is basically focussed on very few things. The main reason for depending on Cheney, and I can see that politically, the main reason is that he does not like to do the work of thinking, because it makes him too anxious. And most of the ideas in my book are about Bush’s functioning to defend against anxiety. And that’s really basically what he’s about.

    EIR: What I found particularly striking is a kind of a deadly mix of
    experiences: the trauma over his sister’s death, and the way the family
    handled that. Then developing an at least alcohol—some people say alcohol
    and drug dependency—for quite a number of years. It seemed to me that this
    is almost a kind of very extreme clinical case of somebody who’s nominally walking around as functional, but really has got deep, deep psychological scars.

    Frank: Yes, it has to do with the fact that he was never able to mourn, and when you don’t mourn, you can’t integrate your inner life. What happens is that, as I write in the book, sorrow is the vitamin of growth, and until you face who you are and what you’ve lost, you really can’t organize your mind, and so what happens is when you’re the first born, and the next one dies, you’re left with a lot of unworked-out hostility, anger, guilt, that maybe your wishes killed them. You have lots of magical thinking, and if you don’t have a family that helps you gather those things together, you can be in a lot of trouble.

    “So then you have to manage your feelings yourself. And one of the ways
    people do manage them when they are that age, is they have friends to talk
    to; but he doesn’t seem to have had anybody to talk to much. But they also
    read, and pay attention to things, so they learn about human beings from
    reading about other people, if their parents aren’t responsive to them. But
    he really has such a hard time reading, that it’s like swimming with
    weights. I mean, it’s just too much for him. So he didn’t have that avenue
    either, so he became sometimes cruel to people, with animals, which is one
    way of managing your aggression, and then to drink in order to manage his
    anxiety, and he became a very heavy drinker,
    that’s very clear, till he was 40, at least.”

    the guy has no class, no feelings, nothing – if he allows his motorcade to buzz past Cindy Sheehan while he goes bike riding.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara
  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Slow down, Hoss. Where did I say ‘Bush lied’ about WMDs?

    The only thing I’ve said is that I believe Bush “Bush lied us into war..” and at this juncture, I do think the American public was told a lot of things that the war planners knew were not as solid as they were making it sound to be.

    As I just stated, and you chose to ignore it, Pat Roberts, head of Sen Intel Committee refused to carry teh investigation a step further, which would have looked carefully at the USE of that bad intel.

    The intel wasn’t used in a vaccuum. Someone decided to go with it. To start a war based upon it.

    The buck would stop with the President there, Dave. If “Bush was seduced into accepting bad data”, as you said, then he was a fool. And the buck stops there – but he has attempted to escape accountability at all costs – even ignoring poor Cindy Sheehan.

    ..you’ve apparently either not understood or never been exposed to some of the basic facts of the situation.

    Poppycock, Dave Nalle. I’m not concerned with defending myself in this aspect. I have about three years worth of “facts” and “understanding” at the Iddybud blog. That’s the beauty of documenting history as it occurs. No one can come back and say you didn’t pay attention.

    You realize that the way you have characterized the content of the Downing Street memo is in direct contradiction to the explanation given by all of the people actually involved in the briefings which it came out of, right?

    WRONG. If you want to talk turkey, I’m ready – with the facts. Give me your arguments – and sources.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I’ll be back tomorrow to see if you can challenge me on the Downing Street case, Dave. I blogged it closely and am well-read on the topic.

  • kg

    This is certainly an interesting web. Between John H and Dave Nalle we have some very intersting ideas…Perhaps both want to be used in a DU experiment because some UN report said DU tastes great? Real men eat it every day…I suspect neither is or ever was in the service. Both seem to have no respect for the Sheehans. However bad both of them are, what about the fact that the rest of you are using Arab oil and emppowering Bush? Perhaps the best thing I have seen on this blog is the mention of hemp, (see # 189), which, along with farm wastes, could provide an answer to the war for oil; an answer which could empower Americans to produce their own oil. John H would be spending less money each week on gas, and Dave could get a life, as millions of unemployed Americans could get a job, patriotically producing their own energy. Casey, a mechanic, could still be alive today, fitting cars with energy efficient motors to use ethanol (derived easily from cellulose.) We cannot bring Casey back, but we can prevent young Americans from being sent home in a casket, we can prevent more American parents from opening the door to a group of Marines…if anyone has a brain or cares, let’s roll…use hemp and let the Bushes burn in hell.

  • kg

    P.S. to my comment # 350. Hemp was in fact grown by US presidents, the Founding Fathers e.g. They did not need to send young men overseas to get oil. For any Americans on this site you can google “hemp” and see what there is, ignore the ‘pothead’ issue…it’s a smokescreen…take a look at businesses which manufacture hemp goods in the USA. Then take a look at the real good to the economy there would be if it were grown, as it was by Washington. That is how to prevent recession and war. We owe it to the next generation to keep them out of war and create a real economy for them, so they don’t have to join the military and be disrespected by the rich oil barons.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Slow down, Hoss. Where did I say ‘Bush lied’ about WMDs?< <

    94: "Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. She knows it now. And a whole lot more. We all do."

    332: "Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. She knows it now."

    Actuall, having found these two identical comments I'm wondering if you're just posting canned responses. Where do you get them from?

    >>The only thing I’ve said is that I believe Bush “Bush lied us into war..”< <

    And this is different from saying he lied in what way?

    >> and at this juncture, I do think the American public was told a lot of things that the war planners knew were not as solid as they were making it sound to be.< <

    And your evidence comes from? Certainly not from the 9/11 report or any other legitimate source.

    >>As I just stated, and you chose to ignore it, Pat Roberts, head of Sen Intel Committee refused to carry teh investigation a step further, which would have looked carefully at the USE of that bad intel.< <

    He did what he was mandated to do. The decision to create this war didn't just rest on president Bush. Congress agreed to it based on the same information and had access to the same sources.

    >>The buck would stop with the President there, Dave. If “Bush was seduced into accepting bad data”, as you said, then he was a fool. And the buck stops there – but he has attempted to escape accountability at all costs – even ignoring poor Cindy Sheehan. < <

    There may be accountability issues, but they are to the American people as a whole, not just to Cindy Sheehan, and meeting with her won't address the larger issue in any way.

    >>WRONG. If you want to talk turkey, I’m ready – with the facts. Give me your arguments – and sources.< <

    Anyone who reads the memo who is not specifically looking for something to twist into some sort of accusation can only come away with the impression that the intent was to find support for the war not to manufacture or falsify data. There's nothing in the memo which suggests falsification in any way, not even the use of the word 'fixed', which clearly only means gathering evidence, not manufacturing it. If you can't make a clear reading of the memo and grasp at least that basic fact then it's impossible to discuss it with you, because your position is based on ideology, not the actual facts in evidence.

    Tony Blair: ""No, the facts were not being fixed in any shape or form at all."

    You complain that the 9/11 commission didn't 'finish the job'. Well in the UK the equivalent commission was headed up by Lord Butler, and they went the extra distance you want, and looked into misrepresentation of intelligence. They unequivocally concluded that while there was bad intelligence there was no intent to deceive or misrepresentation or 'fixing' of the intel to suit a particular purpose.

    You might want to read this article. It also has some very revealing insights on the Plame affair.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Photos1Photos2

    More

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara
  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave,

    Let’s talk honestly.
    I do believe that WMD was a lie.
    The accusation of a lie is a powerful charge -and I did not say “Bush lied about WMD”. Please don’t stuff your words into my mouth.

    I think that WMD was a lie, though, and I have said it firmly.

    You can spin your way around it, but we now know it was a lie and that using it as a reason for pre-emptive war was not only unjust – it was dead wrong.

    I’m not saying Bush deliberately lied about WMD, but I do believe there was an intent, by his war-planners to convince Americans of something that was not at all concrete.

    One look at the Joseph Wilson/Patrick Fitzgerald ongoing investigation will show any curious person that there are heavy cracks in the administrations’ “truth-facade”. Big trouble in River City.

    And yes, I do believe the WMD scare was a lie – because it’s been proven not to be true and the administration had alternative sources warning them not to fall under the influence of Ahmad Chalabi and his informants.

    I never said the words “Bush lied about WMD”.

    But he IS the President.

    The buck stops with the Commander-in- chief, regardless of excuses you make for him.

    I know you like the fellow and want to give him every benefit of the doubt.

    I have always hoped he’d act in good faith toward all citizens of this land. I still hold out that hope, Dave.

    We need a plan for success in Iraq.

    Our country is in trouble here.

    I think we should take this time to be honest with one another.

    At a time when partisan tempers are flaring, let’s seek out the angels of our better nature. If our leaders can’t do it, we citizens can.

    Be honest with me – no spin – and do it without losing your conviction. It’s possible to do that, and we’ll have a stronger civic fabric because of it.

    As I said, I think the President employed white lies and misleadings to convince America, with a firm command, of what was very shaky – manipulated intel – bad intel.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    You complain that the 9/11 commission didn’t ‘finish the job’. Well in the UK the equivalent commission was headed up by Lord Butler, and they went the extra distance you want, and looked into misrepresentation of intelligence. They unequivocally concluded that while there was bad intelligence there was no intent to deceive or misrepresentation or ‘fixing’ of the intel to suit a particular purpose.

    Dave,

    I have never brought up the 9/11 Commisssion at all, so I’m not sure what you are alluding to on that topic. Perhaps you are mistaken.

    I’m talking about the Intelligence investigation about WMD.

    The Butler report:

    Read page 121, Chapter 6.4 of the Butler report, particularly sections 501 to 503.

    Then read Joseph Wilson’s words once again.

    The argument here is not whether or not an attempt was made to purchase uranium in Niger, it is whether or not our American president was using incredibly shaky information in his State of the Union speech to promote an unnecessary war.

    The Butler Report only serves to separate the British government’s admittedly inconclusive intelligence from Bush’s use and abuse of that intelligence.

    Read it carefully.

    Chapter 6.4
    Section 503-

    a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

    b. British government intelligence from several different sources indicated that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium.

    c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased uranium, as opposed to having sought uranium. The British governemnt did not claim this. (my emphasis)

    d. The forged documents were not available to the British government at the time its assessment was made and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Effendi – if you are still around and reading I would love to hear your views on this article:
    THE OTHER ARMY
    **********************

    Now an Administration official says its “expectations weren’t realistic” and (paraphrasing) we need to LOWER THEM? Did anyone tell the young men & women we sent over there this?

    The radical right is now spending time INVESTIGATING whether Sheehan paid her taxes? Our tax dollars hard at work!! She paid ENOUGH in 2004!

    The above referenced article suggests that mercenaries in Iraq outnumber soldiers? so again, for Cindy Sheehan, WTF ARE WE DOING THERE?

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    POLL RESULTS

    How would you rate Bush’s handling of the war in Iraq?
    Poor 62%
    Good 16%
    Excellent 13%
    Fair 9%
    Total Votes: 63,651

    How would you rate Bush’s handling of domestic affairs?
    Poor 58%
    Good 16%
    Excellent 14%
    Fair 13%
    Total Votes: 63,993

    How would you rate Bush’s overall job performance?
    Poor 59%
    Good 15%
    Excellent 14%
    Fair 11%
    Total Votes: 58,662

    In which direction do you predict Bush’s approval rating will move?
    Down 61%
    Up 24%
    It’ll stay about where it is now 14%
    Total Votes: 58,839

  • rightious reverand

    I have just started to read the comments again and am shocked and aghast at what trite and stupid words have come from the mouth of John..comment 213.
    John 2:13 says that real americans don’t grow hemp or protest! John clearly you have failed to study or even cared to read about the war of independance. if you had ever heard of american history then some of the illeagel hemp growers you should know by name..George Washington, John to let you know he was the first pres. Thomes Jefferson, ben franklin, even good ol abe lincoln, and he not only grew it he smoked it! Hemp was leagal up until the fifties [edited]. as for cindy not being a true or real american because she protests this stupidity in iraq, hmmmm [edited] protesting is what got the USA started in the first place by tossing an egomaniacal royal pain in the ass named george out of this country. for your little inteligence hemp clothing and rope last longer and maintain there color and size better then cotton. hemp oil can be burned as car fuel, home heating fuel with less affect on nature. plastics made from hemp oil also degrade when left to natures course. not like petroleum plastics which last for ever. the hemp plant produces more orygen per acre then an acre of trees. grows anywhere and needs less fertilizers. as a matter of fact john 213 our constitution and declaration were both written on hemp paper. John [edited]. the war on hemp and weed has nothing to do with drugs. the powers that be had and have only interests in oil and did not want to share the wealth with the common people. oh by the way during WWII it was illeagel for a farmer NOT to grow hemp on his or her farm. all facts As far as cindy is concerned she is a patriot and an american hero while BUsh and you john are terrorist and zeros

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “I don’t think anyone is misled or disillusioned with the fact that there was already one meeting with the Sheehans. ”

    I think there are a lot, for example Barbara’s post seems to imply he never met with her.

    “Cindy Sheehan did not know that WMD was a LIE the first time Bush met with her. ”

    Any proof that it was a lie and not just bad intel?

    “He did make a decision on his own. That isn’t the point. ”

    It is the point.

    “she has questions she’d like to have answered ”

    All of which are easy to find using Google.

    “You could be the King of Siam for all I know. If you want to reveal something about yourself, please do. I don’t wish to play guessing games.”

    Well, MSG doesn’t stand for Mono-Sodium Glutamate and I have done two tours in Iraq now. I have escorted coffins and held family members. I have been shot at, rocketed, and mortar’d. I have seen guys get hit, blow up, and die.

    I full respect Cindy Sheehan’s right to protest and make a public spectacle and will defend her right to do so to the death, but I don’t agree with her politics, her “message”, or what she does and quite frankly, though people who have never been in battle my poo-poo it, her actions are incredibly harmful to morale. She may think she is supporting the troops, but she has no idea the harm she causes.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “The Butler Report only serves to separate the British government’s admittedly inconclusive intelligence from Bush’s use and abuse of that intelligence.

    Read it carefully.”

    I have. It says that it appears that the claim Iraq tried to buy material may be accurate. I don’t recall the administration claiming that the Iraq’s had actually bought and received material from Africa.

    Wilson’s report only said that he couldn’t find any evidence of an attempted buy, not that no attempt was made.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Way too much has been made of Wilson’s statements about his trip to Niger. His research wasn’t thorough at all and his findings were inconclusive. Before he published his article the CIA had rejected his report as inadequate. Evidence from other sources confirms the Iraqis had contacted sources in Niger about further purchases of yellowcake, even if the transaction was never completed.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Iddybud

    John B –

    You are higher, in my eyes, than the King of Siam.

    Thank you wholeheartedly for your service.

    I know Barbara, John, I know her very well, and I know that she knows about the first meeting.

    There has never been an investigation into the use/abuse of the intel.

    There is some developing information that Sen Pat Roberts (R-KS) had worked, with the help of a longstanding rule changed in 2001 by a Bush directive, to deliberately conceal the manipulation of intel from his position as Senate Intel Committee Chairman.

    The 2001 directive restricted classified information to just eight members of Congress. The 2001 directive has prevented committee staffs from carrying out meaningful research on the massaging of the intel.

    This is an abuse of democracy.

    It’s at Raw Story today. Raw Story has been privy to a limited review of intelligence document leaks [source unknown].

    She may think she is supporting the troops, but she has no idea the harm she causes.

    I believe this heartful lady, in all her conviction, is the least of your worries, John. Harm to morale is caused by those who have the power to abuse intel in order to convince a nation and its representatives to risk good and loyal men and women when it is not absolutely necessary.

    If no one speaks up in our democracy when they begin to see signs of weakness, confusion, and lowered expectations for the cause in which we’re engaged, what kind of responsible citizens would we be?

    There is full support for our troops – this isn’t like the cruel Vietnam era when stupid protestors condemned soldiers. We love you, and want you to be sent to war only when necessary.

    I know you’d have our backs, even if we don’t agree on that point. That’s why you have my unconditional respect and appreciation.

    I would hope a meeting with Sheehan by President Bush might bring her peace and also might move him to come up with a plan for an exit strategy, which I’m sure won’t be today or tomorrow – but Americans are asking for one – just look at the polls.

    Those poll results are NOT the fault of Cindy Sheehan – I think you must realize that.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    For one, I am not John Bambenek (previously referred to as John B).

    Second, thanks are never necessary but always appreciated.

    Third, there have been investigations into the faulty intel.

    Fourth, Classified info has almost always been restricted to a select few in Congress.

    Fifth, When we are over in the sandbox, we get the news. We hear and read the stories. People like Cindy Sheehan have an incredibly large affect on morale, more so than most people could ever imagine.

    Speaking up is all well and good, but people really need to be aware of the affect they have on the people fighting and dying.

    And no, there is not full support of the troops. It is better right now than it was in ‘Nam, but there are still plenty of people who don’t support the troops or actively condemn them.

    BTW, “exit strategy” is a really neat sound bite, but that is about it. There can be only one exit strategy–success. We did not have an “exit strategy” for almost any of our previous conflicts.

    As for poll results, a lot of the ones I have seen overwhelmingly say things like people support her right to do what she is doing, but do not agree with her.

    I also know that in military communities, Cindy is not well liked, not even by families who have lost a loved one. She represents a small faction.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>Barbara’s post seems to imply he never met with her. < <

    Imply to whom? I know all about the first meeting. (thanx Jude) It went something like this woman’s account on O’Reilly.

    Sheehan wants a real meeting – not Bush rushing in for a photo op, calling her “Mom” and Casey “her loved one.” She wants to look this man, the PRESIDENT – in the eye and have DIALOGUE. What Bush gave her was essentially a ‘monologue.’ He just “punched in/punched out” of a carefully planned brief meeting with Sheehan with ZERO meaningful dialogue. She DESERVES dialogue.

    Cindy Sheehan IS Bush’s accountability moment. She wants to hear it from him – we all do.

    Instead she is called all sorts of names, accused of being an anti-semite (why does that one come up over & over when the Radical Right is in trouble? its sickening). This is schoolyard bullying. Bush could have ended this a long time ago by being a human being & a real President. Not a sound byte.

    As Robert Freeman said in his article:

    The servile idolatry of authority that so insecurely needs to suppress a lone woman’s protest against such a transparent and tragic fraud as the War in Iraq is a far greater threat to America than is that simple protest itself. If we truly believe in America, the merits of the Iraq War notwithstanding, we must honor and defend Cindy Sheehan’s act. Even more, we must join it to defend it against the faux patriots who would ruthlessly, happily silence not only Sheehan but all of the rest of us as well.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    You know, I’m no fan of our president, but this Sheehan woman needs to go home. He met with her once, and it’s too bad that she didn’t like how the meeting went. He is not her personal president and he doesn’t have to do what she wants him to do.

    I sympathize with her for her loss, but she does not have a right to another meeting with Bush and he has no moral or other obligation to give her one.

    She’s pushed this too far in front of the media and turned it into a spectacle. There’s no way he should meet with her now under any conditions. I’m loath to criticize a grieving parent because I cannot begin to understand her pain, so the best I can say is that the people who truly care about her and who truly support her should do everything they can to convince her to go home and get away from the cameras.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    there have been investigations into the faulty intel

    No doubt, but never an investigation into how the bad intel was employed by the President’s administration.

    Classified info has almost always been restricted to a select few in Congress

    Respectfully, you are wrong. Not this few. For 30 years, information was not restricted to these eight members only. That did not change until 2001. Here’s the document in case you don’t believe me.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Nice to see someone speaking out for common sense, BHW. I wish it was contagious.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    I guess Dave & bhw, common sense is in the “eye of the beholder.” Or is it a phrase reserved only for those who agree with you? Personally I have to wonder where the common DECENCY is of people like the President who buzz by Ms. Sheehan or someone who drives over crosses. Where is the common sense in driving over crosses? or accusing her of being an anti-semite? or plastering her divorce papers on the internet? what’s next? Unpaid parking tickets? forgetting to flush a toilet? or perhaps its online porn or borrowing a library book she forgot to return? Was the person who did this a Rapture-Right Christian? Or just a Proud American?

    To the best of my knowledge Bush is EVERYONE’s personal president. We got rid of that imperial monarchy “don’t come near me you plebian scum” stuff over 230 years ago in America. Please let me know if I slept through Dubya’s coronation.

    Here’s last night’s CNN Interview with Cindy Sheehan

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Way too much has been made of Wilson’s statements about his trip to Niger.

    Far too little has been made of the vengeful orchestrated smearing of Joseph Wilson – and the treasonous outing of his wife, a CIA agent.

  • http://www.cnn.com MSG John

    “Far too little has been made of the vengeful orchestrated smearing of Joseph Wilson – and the treasonous outing of his wife, a CIA agent.”

    Assuming that is why and what happened. It will be ironinc if the investigation reveals that Wilson himself letthe cat out of the bag.

    “Respectfully, you are wrong. Not this few. For 30 years, information was not restricted to these eight members only. That did not change until 2001. Here’s the document in case you don’t believe me. ”

    Umm, did you READ that document? It reiterates procedures which had been in place for a very long time–Only designated people can disclose classified info and only to properly cleared and designated members of Congress. (To have access to classified material you must have: the proper clearance {Confidential, Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret/SCI}, proper ID, and a need to know–not everyone in Congress has all three). It does not specify or limit who those members of Congress are.

    “Instead she is called all sorts of names, accused of being an anti-semite (why does that one come up over & over when the Radical Right is in trouble? its sickening). ”

    It might have something to do with the signs and posters at her camp.

    “She DESERVES dialogue.”

    Let’s do some math–1800 dead troops. Let’s say that they have on average 1.75 living parents each. If there are 24 hours in a day, each meeting is an hour, and there are 8 hours of meetinsg per day, it would take over a year to meet and have a dialogue with them all. Let’s not even get into wounded troops or any adult with a beef they want to air.

    She got as much as she deserves.

    “Imply to whom? ”

    Your post “I must call to mind other Republicans who had the task of speaking to family members left behind and the public and what they said:” implies that other Republicans met with bereaved families, but Bush did not.

  • http://www.cnn.com MSG John

    Correction: “Umm, did you READ that document? It reiterates procedures which had been in place for a very long time–Only designated people can disclose classified info and only to properly cleared and designated members of Congress. (To have access to classified material you must have: the proper clearance {Confidential, Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret/SCI}, proper ID, and a need to know–not everyone in Congress has all three).”

  • MCH

    Re comment #368;

    Yeah, Dave Nalle, the pinnacle of common sense. This from same guy who has such little respect for the sacrifices of our troops, he equates being killed in combat to accidental traffic fatalities.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    MSG John,

    Sorry to turn it around on you, but I must ask if you actually read it. I don’t think you understand.

    These are new procedures in this directive..a Bush Presidential directive from 2001.

    The change I’m discussing – the one that enabled the controlling partisan ranking Sen Intel Committe member Pat Roberts to put the brakes on any investigation into the use of intel by the war planners and cut the flow of information to Democrats on the Intelligence Committee – was the limiting of the ability to see classified documents to only ranking committe members.

    It was not so in the past. New procedure.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    1800 dead troops. Let’s say that they have on average 1.75 living parents each. If there are 24 hours in a day, each meeting is an hour, and there are 8 hours of meetinsg per day, it would take over a year

    Here’s the simple truth, when you do the math:

    They aren’t all camped out in Crawford, TX for the entire nation to see.

    Cindy Sheehan is.

    The president’s riding a bike around (staying “balanced”) while one mournful woman waits for weeks.

  • Dallas

    Howdy, all!

    I see the discussion is alive and well. I also see that some of you still misunderstand the reason I use scripture in talking about Cindy Sheehan. In talking about her son, she talks about his strong faith. It has also been widely reported that she has been deeply involved in her faith. Well, if such is true, then that is where one measure of the situation can be made.

    I think what many of you seem to want is for Cindy Sheehan to be able to proclaim that she and her son are good, faithful people, and not have her be challenged. I simply have taken Cindy Sheehan at her word. I believe that she and her son had deep commitments of faith. All I’ve done, is point out scriptures that deal with what Cindy Sheehan is doing.

    Some of you take it the wrong way, But, then again, some of you come into the fray with your minds already made up – anyone who is mentions the Bible must be Bush supporter. It just shows your own bias and ignorance. There are some non-Reublicans that know a little about the Bible, you know.

    This is the problem of the Democratic Party today – mention anything that has to do with God, faith, or the Bible, and your own (supposed) people attack you. Sorry, guys, but this is a nation founded on Judeo-Christian principles. There are many out there like me, and former Georgia Governor and Senator Zell Miller, who are dealing with people in our own party who won’t even acknowledge the important role faith plays in the everyday lives of the majority of Americans.

    It’s just funny to sit back and watch what happens when I don’t mention my political stripes. Simply because I choose to inject faith into the discussion I’m a right-wing nutcase. You guys are the reason we are getting consistently beaten on election day. Open your minds – after all, the Democratic Party is supposed to be the group that is the most open to different ideas.

    If you all are the sample, though, we’re headed for nothing but more losses. It makes me wish there could be a third party of people who truly do see all sides of an issue without blowing a gasket.

  • Nancy

    President? What president? If you mean that clown that’s riding around Crawford on a bike pretending he’s in the Tour de France, that’s just W. Bush, who never has won a legal election. May he hit a rock, sail over the handlebars, & break his lying neck. Paraplegia…that would be amusing & I couldn’t wish it on a more fitting moral maggot. At any rate, G.W. Bush is not MY president, & I do not recognize him as having any authority whatsoever.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Yeah, Dave Nalle, the pinnacle of common sense. This from same guy who has such little respect for the sacrifices of our troops, he equates being killed in combat to accidental traffic fatalities.<<

    Statistics. MCH. They aren’t personal. They aren’t out to get you. They don’t make judgements or have respect or not have respect. They’re just numbers. Learn to think a bit and maybe you won’t fear them so much.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>she got as much as she deserves”

    That is so arrogant I am just requoting it here to give it a little air. Puhleeze

    >>implies that other Republicans met with bereaved families, but Bush did not.< <

    only You could see that implication. Guiliani & Pataki not only met with families, had MEANINGFUL dialogue with families and attended 1000s of funerals. I never said Bush didn’t meet with her. I said Bush had NO MEANINGFUL dialogue with her.

    I always get a kick out of how the Bush supporters pick out one or two snippets and hammer them to death while ignoring the big truth: Bush is an arrogant S.O.B. who stole the election and he and his robber baron administration have been sending young people to die in a futile war while they run the country like the Gambino Crime family.

    This whole situation is of Bush’s making and its evolved like a 7th grade schoolyard rumble – including note passing, whispering, pokes, jabs and projection. And that’s about where Bush is – 7th grade.

    (btw Nancy – got a big kick out of your comment!! ;) )

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dallas -Comment 376 –

    I have to ask what you’re talking about, because I wonder how it’s relevant.
    Many of us are people of deep and abiding faith.
    What faith issues do you believe relate directly to Bush’s refusal to see Mrs. Sheehan?

    You are not passing Christian judgement upon her, are you? If so, why – in a political discussion?

    God is not a Republican.
    God is not a Democrat.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dallas –

    I found your prior comment:

    A woman lost her son. She is grieving. She claims allegiance to Christ, and claims her son possessed the same. If such claims are true, she would be less likely to mourn lost, worldly flesh for so long and take comfort in salvation for her son’s soul. Instead, she has put her herself on a crusade that failed to win sympathy during the past elections (Google to discover her affilitation with MoveOn.org and appearance in their anti-Bush commercials last year), and will continue to fail as people slowly dig out her past words, which have been hate-filled, virulent, and punctuated by cursing and wild accusasions.

    Dallas, you are in heavy judgement of this woman – even calling her hateful.
    Judge not, Dallas. That, in and of itself, is a purely Christian command.

    If you’re challenging the woman’s strength of faith, Judge not.

    But I see you – very clearly – judging her political stance on the war in Iraq – and it has nothing to do with her personal faith…if anything, she has taken up what she believes is a just and righteous cause and for the salvation of soul – as Christ himself asked his disciples to leave their fishing boats and fathers for!

    If Cindy finds her strength of conviction through God, you have no right to sit in judgement or to try to think you have a line between Cindy and her God.

    “Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them…and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.”
    – the Gospel of Matthew 4:21-22

  • gonzo marx

    to Dallas…see my comment in #182

    to #376, i have one word…

    poppycock!!

    being an Independant, i speak for no one but myself…that being said, i think that it is diametrically opposed to all the “morals” and teaching of Jesus to quote scripture out of context for a demeaning and denigrating purpose

    the Ends NEVER justify the Means…wasn’t that the Lesson of the Passion? simplicity itself to ask the 50,000 to rise up in War…but instead, the Law was followed, and martyrdom was the outcome…

    as for the “founding” of our Nation..you are grossly misinformed as to your History

    the Discussion on our government being secular was heatedly discussed back then…and the secularists won out

    try the Establishment Clause in the Bill of Rights

    or just look at the back of a dollar bill, on the Great Seal…

    Novus Ordo Seclorum

    go on…look it up

    to berate a citizen who is merely excercising their Right to protest is not only detestable, but staunchly un-American…not to mention un-Christian

    need a hand with that log?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Obviously, the concept of “meaningful dialogue” is somewhat subjective.

    “But I don’t care, I’m goin’. And I’m gonna tell them, “You get that evil maniac out here, cuz a Gold Star Mother, somebody who’s blood is on his hands, has some questions for him.”

    And I’m gonna say, “OK, listen here, George. #1, you quit, and I demand, every time you get out there and say you’re going to continue the killing in Iraq to honor the fallen heroes by continuing the mission; you say, except Casey Sheehan.'”

    “And you say except for all the members of Goldstar Families for Peace’ cuz we think not one drop of blood should be spilled in our families’ names. You quit doing that. You don’t have my permission.”

    And I’m gonna say, “And you tell me, what the noble cause is that my son died for.” And if he even starts to say freedom and democracy’ I’m gonna say, bullshit.

    You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don’t tell me my son died for freedom and democracy.’

    Cuz, we’re not freer. You’re taking away our freedoms. The Iraqi people aren’t freer, they’re much worse off than before you meddled in their country.

    You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine”

    In her own words

    It was amusing at first, now its just getting sad and creepy.

  • ss

    ‘It was amusing at first, now its just getting sad and creepy’

    How is it amusing?
    You mean like in a
    ‘Look at that chick freakin’ out cuz her son died. HAW HAW HAW’
    Kind of way?

    The amusing part, I gotta tell you Joe, I just don’t get.
    Sad and creepy I’ll give you.
    Now that everyone’s sad and creepy, do you feel less alone?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    HERE is what’s sad and creepy, dude.

    You weren’t driving the truck that deliberately ran those soldier memorials over, were you?

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    No, amusing as in “Look at these people wetting themselves over the opportunity to see this woman humiliate the president.”

    I empathize with her as much as her handlers do, if that’s any consolation to you.

    It is also amusing that in lieu of having anything to add you just decide to call me names (a little sad, too).

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Jude, now that’s just silly. I point out her comments and give my opinion and now you want to imply I’m equivalent to someone vandalizing ersatz war memorials. Get a grip.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    But back to the “meaningful dialogue”…

    Given her previous statement, can you explain why anyone should have a reasonable expectation that were she to meet with Bush that a “meaningful dialogue” would occur?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I never said Bush didn’t meet with her. I said Bush had NO MEANINGFUL dialogue with her.< <

    Odd, she seemed to think it was meaningful at the time.

    >>You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don’t tell me my son died for freedom and democracy.’< <

    Good lord, is that quote for real? She's going to basically read to him out of the socialist extremist lecture book and she expects him to sit still for it? It's one thing to bring a legitimate complaint to the president, but that kind of stuff just insults his intelligence. Can she really be that uninformed?

    >>I empathize with her as much as her handlers do, if that’s any consolation to you.<<

    Now THAT is a clever use of irony.

    Dave

  • krg

    The haters are out there on this issue.
    you know who you are, too. You demanded
    retribution on sept 12, now that someone
    is trying to perform the miracles you expect, you nit pick and condemn. Lets see, didnt the libs rule this country for 40 years of malaise, inflation, vietnam and cold war?

  • http://www.cnn.com MSG John

    “Sorry to turn it around on you, but I must ask if you actually read it.”

    If you had kept on reading, you would have seen my correction post.

    The rules for disclosing classified information have not really changed much. You have no proof of the rules before that memo. As I explained, there have always been strict rules on disclosing classified information on both who could do it and who could receive it.

    “Here’s the simple truth, when you do the math:

    They aren’t all camped out in Crawford, TX for the entire nation to see. ”

    And what is to stop them? If they go camp out, does that somehow give them some special privilege? No, it doesn’t. Sorry, that dog won’t hunt. Hell, with that kind of reasoning if I go on a hunger strike, the President should drop what he is doing and rush off to have “meaningful dialogue” with me.

    The President isn’t required to meet with her at all, but he did once already. That she is unsatisfied with the first meeting does not grant her any more grounds to demand a second meeting. But hey, let’s play this silly game–she meets with the President for an hour. Next year she decides that she is STILL not satisfied and demands a third meeting…where do you draw the line?

  • gonzo marx

    bah…simplicity itself

    the Shrub ain’t gotta meet with anyone he doesn’t want to, he is still the POTUS…

    ANY citizen of the US has the Right to protest or demand any silly thing they want from an elected Representitive…it’s how our System works

    sooOOoooOOOoooOOOoo?

    what the fuck is all the yammering about?

    does anyone deny that the Shrub doesn’t have to meet with any citizen for any reason?

    does anyone deny that a citizen has the Right to protest and/or make requests of elected officials?

    i repeat…what the fuck is the problem?

    only problems i see are:unrealistic expectations on her part: and considerable political repercussions for POTUS and his attack dogs

    keep on attacking a citizen for excercising her Right to protest…keeps her in the media eye

    brilliant

    Excelsior!

  • Nancy

    Gonzo, nobody ever claimed the knee-jerk Smirk defenders had any brains….

  • gonzo marx

    tru nuff , Nancy

    wonder if the would like some gooey french cheese with all the whine?

    but i digress…

    Excelsior!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    The rules for disclosing classified information have not really changed much. You have no proof of the rules before that memo.

    And you have no proof of the contrary.

    When it comes to congressional Committees getting everything they need to make informed decisions these days, the directive is being used as a political tool to stop our representatives from getting the info they often need to make proper choices.

    I believe this is why Congress was not given good enough information to make an informed vote back in Oct 2002 on the Iraq resolution.

    They’ve been deliberately fed only what the administration wanted to feed them.

    Bolton’s another example:

    “Access to such classified information is limited. Roberts — chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee — is one of the few senators with sufficient clearance to view the classified documents in question.” [link]

    In the past, Committee staffers have had access to classified documents for research purposes. How do you think George Tenet got where he was? He was a mid-level staffer on the Senate Intelligence Committee. He’d had access to virtually all the nation’s intelligence secrets.

    Flow of intel from White House to Senate Intelligence Committee has changed as per the President’s clear directive in 2001. When providing briefings to the Congress relating to the classified information from the Bush administration (and there is more info classified in this administration than I’ve ever seen), only eight members of Congress have the coveted ability to be be briefed on classified matters.

    Most Democrat sare fed as little info as possible to make good decisions and/or to investigate Oval Office or GOP improprieties. Meanwhile, journalist GOP-hacks like Jeff Gannon receive mysterious classified INR leaks. Hmmmm….

    The presidential Oct 5 2001 directive declares his new policy – why do you think he would have bothered to send it out if it signified nothing new?

    In all fairness, here’s info directly from the latest article on the subject:

    By the late 1990s, members of the committees and their staffs were seeing more than 2,200 CIA reports and receiving more than 1,200 substantive briefings from agency officials each year to assist them in their role of providing proper oversight.

    But the little-reported 2001 Bush directive changed that, ensuring that only two members of each committee received full briefings on intelligence operations, and preventing committee staffs from carrying out meaningful research.

    Tom Reynolds, spokesman for the ranking Democrat on the House Select Committee on Intelligence, Jane Harman (D-CA), downplayed the significance of the order, saying members continued to have access. He acknowledged, however, that the “gang of eight” had higher-level clearances.

    The spokesman for the Senate Intelligence Committee deferred comment to the White House; the White House did not return requests for comment. [Raw Story]

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Given her previous statement, can you explain why anyone should have a reasonable expectation that were she to meet with Bush that a “meaningful dialogue” would occur?

    First of all Joe – I was merely teasing you about the truck-driver in Crawford thing. I assumed you’d know how to take it lightly, seeing as how you said you found all this so amusing and all.

    Anyhow, I don’t expect the dialogue to mean anything to anyone except Cindy.

    I don’t much care what the President says to her.

    Everyone else can pack it in and go home – this is between Cindy and George.

    I think he should meet her in private -he should look at her – straight in the eye. Let her get it off her chest. He’s supposed to be the bigger man – the leader – the one with the plan -with character – personal accountability…

    So what’s the big friggen deal?

    HE SHOULD MEET WITH HER ALREADY!

    And as I said on August 9 when I wrote this column, DENOUNCE the people running over crosses and shooting guns and smearing the woman. (Unless he secretly loves what they are doing to her, which is the only conclusion I can draw right now).

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Good lord, is that quote for real? She’s going to basically read to him out of the socialist extremist lecture book

    Oh yeah, Dave.
    It takes a real socialist – or maybe even a “commie” (as the positively ICKY-CREEPY John Gibson referred to her when Ira Stoll was a guest on his FOX show).

    To have raised an altar boy, Eagle Scout, Marine –
    Whoa- there’s a Red alert for ya!

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Hey, no skin off my back, I assumed you were part of the CINDY!TM(We’re on a first name basis now!)”Mother” Sheehan Club and were in the business of brooking no dissent.

    If the dialogue doesn’t mean anything to anyone but CINDY!TM&etc… doesn’t that actually make it a monologue?

    My personal take (RED ALERT: this is only an opinion!) is that if she was acting in good faith, he should talk to her. Her actions and words don’t really indicate good faith on her part. She doesn’t offer anything that will in anyway result in progress, she just wants to vent. She’ll get better long term results from a therapist.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So, where are the posts on the latest news from Crawford, like…

    Emergency meeting of the county commissioners to declare parking on the side of rural roads illegal.

    Some guy in a truck running over all the little crosses. Oh, the outrage, the outrage!

    The process server wandering around outside the ranch looking for Cindy Sheehan to deliver divorce papers from her fed-up husband.

    Those are the stories circulating here in Texas, anyway.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    oh yeah..that’s IT , Mr Nalle

    now we know, you like free speech as long as it’s yours or those that think like you?

    just asking…

    and absofuckinglutely brilliant for the GOP attack dogs to keep hammering on this woman…great publicity

    for whom is an excercise for the gentle Reader…

    “my Warning…
    meant Nothing…
    you’re dancing…
    in Quicksand.
    why don’t You watch where you’re Wandering?
    why don’t you watch where you’re Stumbling?
    you’re in It knee deep so go ahead…
    and you may never get Back again.”

    Tool

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Now gonzo, I posted three news items in brief, none of which were particularly anti-cindy or pro Bush. Just wanted to keep the conversation going with the latest news.

    BTW, the full information on the divorce filing can be found at The Smoking Gun.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Mr Nalle..it’s “Swamp Song” from the album Undertow…

    give it a listen sometime

    nice about the divorce thing…it just shows how much you are overflowing with the milk of human kindness…i do so enjoy when you employ the compassion of a proctologist at Dachau…shows more of the “real you”

    but i expect no less from an “elitist pig”…thanks for reminding me about who the Foe is

    Excelsior!

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>Odd, she seemed to think it was meaningful at the time.<<

    so now we have Republicans who can speak to the dead and know what Casey would have wanted, we have people who are inside Cindy’s head.

    Let’s see, she’s in a ditch in Crawford, sleeping in a tent, while the Chimp & his zombies zoom past, while redneck truckers knock over crosses and fire shots, and while the media is crawling up her ass 24/7 – she’s pissed and frankly if I were her I wouldn’t make much sense either.

    and WHO THE FUCK cares about her divorce proceedings? if that’s so damn important let’s pull up Bush’s National Guard attendance record, Bush’s drunk driving records, Bush’s grades and a stool sample.

    Nancy, I gotta agree with you…. I think this whole lot is swilling too dang much Jesus juice. Don’t confuse them with reality!

    The Great and Noble Cause? They can’t get a constitution together because they want an ISLAMIC republic which means Sharia law for some – so the subjogation of women can go on! And they can’t agree on it.

    Or maybe making sure Halliburton had record profits?

    Bush should look Sheehan in the eye and tell her that the Great & Noble Cause was $3/gallon!! Mission Accomplished.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>and WHO THE FUCK cares about her divorce proceedings? if that’s so damn important let’s pull up Bush’s National Guard attendance record, Bush’s drunk driving records, Bush’s grades and a stool sample.<<

    I’ve got no problem with pulling all of Bush’s records. It’s been done at length before. But the divorce business is relevant, because it shows how much her actions have alienated her family. The rest of the Sheehans issued a statemend disavowing her actions, her husband is divorcing her. These things suggest that maybe her son wouldn’t have been happy with what she’s doing, and maybe she’s kind of out of control.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    and this all has to do with this woman’s right to protest how?

    why don’t you just come out an dadmit you are aiding and abetting the personal destruction of this woman, Mr Nalle?

    be honest…and then maybe you can say why

    here i had thought you had a little more to you than that, but instead you wind up as just another shill

    too bad

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>and this all has to do with this woman’s right to protest how?< <

    Not a thing to do with her right to protest, but a lot to do with how out of control and out of touch with reality she is.

    >>why don’t you just come out an dadmit you are aiding and abetting the personal destruction of this woman, Mr Nalle?< <

    She seems to already have that well in hand. No help from me needed.

    >>be honest…and then maybe you can say why< <

    You ought to already know my answer to this. I have no issue with her or her protest on principle. What I object to is her willingness to be used by those who didn't lose kids in Iraq and just want to capitalize on her protest to advance their political partisan agenda.

    >>here i had thought you had a little more to you than that, but instead you wind up as just another shill<<

    Oddly, that’s what Cindy Sheehan seems to have turned herself into, and that’s what I’m objecting to.

    If it was just her private protest without the handlers and media circus and blatant hypocrisy I’d have a lot more sympathy for her, but she’s let herself become a tool in a smear campaign and I think that’s wrong.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    because when you look in the mirror you see the same thing for the GOP?

    fucking spare me, please

    if the GOP had just ignored her, it would be a non-issue by now

    attacking her personally(like your mentioning the divorce papers), and after watchign an hour of cable news..i’ve heard 3 different GOP talking heads go at her..and that ain’t even coutning Fox

    i see how it is..fuck the Issue, destroy the person

    same olde for the GOP and their whores

    make sure they leave that $$$ on the nightstand for you , Mr Nalle

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>attacking her personally(like your mentioning the divorce papers)<<

    Nothing wrong with mentioning the divorce papers. You can look on it from two perspectives and from either one it’s significant.

    What if I’d mentioned them and then said what a tragedy it is that her devotion to her son’s memory and righting the wrongs of Iraq has cost her ties to her family and even her marriage. What a remarkable woman to put a cause she finds so important above her personal life and relationships.

    When I first brought it up I left that interpretation open – all I did was mention the situation. And frankly, that view is just as valid as any other. The question is whether you think her protest is worth the price she paid, or if she’s made a horrible mistake.

    Personally I do see her as a tragic figure, because she’s sacrificing so much and will never get anything in return. All the benefits go to the partisan operatives while she takes on all the suffering and pain.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>been done at length before. But the divorce business is relevant<<

    Mr Nalle, when you are done wiping yourself with the RNC Talking Points Memo maybe you can tell me how Bush’s record was examined AT LENGTH? It was spun, denied, covered over with smear campaigns & swift-boat ads, lied about…. spare me. Bush drove 3 businesses into the fucking GROUND and had to be bailed out by his Daddy & brothers yet somehow this loser got elected president. The man can’t even conjugate a VERB.

    The divorce papers ARE relevant? Really? I think Bush’s record is terribly relevant since somehow he ended up in the Oval Office in the highest position in America – and Cindy Sheehan is just sitting in a ditch waiting with her grief waiting for an audience with King Dumbass.

    Let me know when the Flying Monkeys go after her – it’ll be any moment now.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    So Cindy’s husband is filing for divorce. It’s another personal matter that we voyeuristic Americans will going wrap our lips around and debate until the cows come home. It’s a tragedy for the Sheehans. Casey is dead. After 28 years, a marriage lays in ruins, reduced to a property settlement.

    Let the mother have her grief. Those on the right, leave her the hell alone. Those on the left stop using her pain as a weapon in your own arsenal of hate spewing. I watched firsthand the grief of a mother burying her child who was cut down in Iraq. I watched another friend last week deal with the grief of watching her brother go off to fight this war. These are the folks who are suffering — the families of the brave soldiers who are serving this country. We should be treating these families with compassion and respect. We should be enveloping them in our love and concern. Nobody wins in war. There are casulaties on the battlefield. And, my friends, there are casualties in our own backyard.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Mr Nalle, when you are done wiping yourself with the RNC Talking Points Memo< <

    If I had such a thing, that's about the only use I'd have for it.

    >> maybe you can tell me how Bush’s record was examined AT LENGTH? It was spun, denied, covered over with smear campaigns & swift-boat ads, lied about…. spare me. Bush drove 3 businesses into the fucking GROUND and had to be bailed out by his Daddy & brothers yet somehow this loser got elected president. < <

    You MUST be kidding. Bush was raked over the coals in two elections. He got attacked based on forged documents - a hell of a lot worse than the Swift Boat Vets thing. Every aspect of his past was examined in detail by the media, including plenty of unfounded speculation. Were you in some other country in 2000 and 2004?

    >>The divorce papers ARE relevant? Really? I think Bush’s record is terribly relevant since somehow he ended up in the Oval Office in the highest position in America < <

    I'll agree that both are relevant.

    >>- and Cindy Sheehan is just sitting in a ditch waiting with her grief waiting for an audience with King Dumbass. <<

    Sitting in a ditch, appearing on 3 national TV shows a day, holding press conferences, issuing position statements, giving interview to the press, etc.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Silas, I think that even those on the right who support the war would have embraced her and given all their sympathy to Cindy Sheehan, had she kept her grief personal and not made it into a political issue. Once she did that then her grief ceased to be just a personal matter, and became a political strategy and it was open season.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    LIMBAUGH SMEARING SOLDIER’S RECORD IN ORDER TO SMEAR HIS MOTHER

    Cindy Sheehan’s story is no more than forged documents, so says the blubberbrained draft-evading piece of radiocrap Rush Limbaugh. Perhaps he’s back on the oxycontin again.

    He’s not defaming Cindy Sheehan – he’s now starting to defame and demean her son Casey – a loyal soldier – and his service to America…attempting to refute the fact that he’s a hero.

    When just yesterday he had said “If {Mrs. Sheehan] is doing anything, she is sullying his memory.”

    Who’s doing the real sullying, Fatty? I think we all know the answer.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    When I first brought it up I left that interpretation open – all I did was mention the situation. And frankly, that view is just as valid as any other. The question is whether you think her protest is worth the price she paid, or if she’s made a horrible mistake.

    I would think that is really none of our business, although I realize there’s no escaping the gossip that is sure to blossom in a case like the Sheehans. Sheehan’s detractors especially like to talk about the subject, pulling out the stops – dragging the family’s pain out for a showcasing…as if it had anything to do with Bush refusing to see Cindy Sheehan in Crawford.

    Sometimes passion for a righteous cause will take you far from your friends and family, and Dave alluded to this in a prior comment.

    Losing a child can wreak havoc upon a couple’s relationship, no matter how that child dies. People grieve in different ways, and the stress can bring them together and it can pull them apart.

    That said, the Sheehans’ marital woe is not the unique thing here.

    What makes the case unique is that lady sitting off the side of the road waiting to see her President.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Silas, I think that even those on the right who support the war would have embraced her and given all their sympathy to Cindy Sheehan, had she kept her grief personal and not made it into a political issue

    Dave,

    What I find a bit goofy about this comment is that, had Cindy never made her questions public and kept them to herself, you never would have known who the hell she was at all.

    Open season on the grieving mother of a fallen soldier?

    You’re exposing your meanest streak, Dave.

    Would you have outed Valerie Plame’s CIA NOC, too? This seems to be the same line of thinking. Fair game, open season. Beastly.

    I’d like to see our country – and all its citizens -return to a sense of decency – and to find our soul again.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    A MESSAGE FROM MRS. ELIZABETH EDWARDS, WIFE OF SEN (AND FORMER VP CANDIDATE) JOHN EDWARDS:

    Casey Sheehan was born May 29, 1979, the first born child of Cindy and Pat Sheehan. It was a long labor. Fifty-one days after Casey was born, our first child, Wade was born, also after a long labor. They started school the same year, played the same games, watched the same television shows, loved the same country. On April 4, 1996, three weeks after going to Washington as a winner in a national contest about what America meant to him, Wade died in an automobile accident. On April 4, 2004, eight years later to the day, Casey, who loved his country enough to wear its uniform, died in Iraq. Cindy and Pat’s hearts broke, as had ours.

    We teach our children right from wrong. We teach them compassion and honor. We teach them the dignity of each life. And then, sometimes, the lessons we taught are turned on their heads. Cindy Sheehan is asking a very simple thing of her government, and she and her family, and most particularly Casey, have paid a very dear price for the right to ask this.

    Cindy wants Casey’s death to have meant as much as his life – lived fully – might have meant. I know this, as does every mother who has ever stood where we stand. And the President says he knows enough, doesn’t need to hear from Casey’s mother, doesn’t need to assure her that Casey’s is not one small death in a long and seemingly never-ending drip of deaths, that there is a plan here that will bring our sons and daughters home. He doesn’t need to hear from her, he says. He claims he understands how some people feel about the deaths in Iraq.

    The President is wrong.

    Whether you agree or disagree with every part, or any part, of what Cindy wants to say, you know it is better that the President hear different opinions, particularly from those with such a deep and personal interest in the decisions of our government. Today, another voice would be helpful.

    Cindy Sheehan can be that voice. She has earned the right to be that voice.

    Please join me in supporting Cindy’s right to be heard.

    I grew up in a military family. My father and my grandfather were career Navy pilots. I saw what it meant to live a life every single day when the possibility of an honorable death is always there, at the dinner table, on the playground, at the base school. Will someone’s father not come home tonight? And I didn’t just feel the possibility, I saw the real thing, and, believe me, it stays with you, it changes you.

    I also saw, then and more recently as I campaigned across this country and spent time with courageous military mothers and wives, how little attention is paid to the needs and the voices of military families. It has to change. The sacrifices that our military men and women make assure us that we have the strongest military in the world, but the sacrifices that their families make are too often ignored. The President’s cavalier dismissal of Cindy Sheehan is emblematic of a greater problem. This is a mother who raised her son to love his country enough to serve. This is a mother who lived the impossible life of a mother of a soldier serving in Iraq, unable to sleep when he sleeps, unable to sleep when he is on duty, unable to watch the television, unable to stop watching the television.

    And when the worst does happen, when the world comes crashing down and she puts the boy she bore, the boy she taught, the boy she loved in the ground, what does that government say to her? It says we’ll do the talking; we don’t need to hear from you. If we are decent and compassionate, if we know the lessons we taught our children, or if, selfishly, all we want is the long line of the brave to protect us in the future, we should listen to the mothers now.

    Listen to Cindy.

    ________________

    Mrs Edwards asks you to join her so Cindy knows we believe she has earned the right to be heard..

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Mr Nalle

    Since you are an editor here at Blogcritics and have your own blog I have to wonder what your motives really are for stirring the pot here and being a stellar writer yet so screamingly blind to what seems to be plain to everyone with a conscience: that Cindy Sheehan has every right to do what she’s doing.

    The media is crawling all over her – she didn’t invite them and she has no reason to hide from them either

    Jude said: >>Open season on the grieving mother of a fallen soldier?

    You’re exposing your meanest streak, Dave.<<

    Yup, exactly. The corporate media, the rightwing talking pumpkin-heads like Limbaugh, Hannity and O’Reilly and people like yourself as just whoring for the Bushes. It’s not pretty Sir, nor does it seem to be worthy of someone with your obvious verbal acuity.

    Bush’s drunk driving, bad business decisions and out of control lifestyle weren’t forged documents. How typical to focus on minuate without seeing the big picture to poke at a Liberal.

    Where’s your soul? I know where mine is and I have no problems with where it wants to be either. Sheehan is a grieving mother. She’s a victim of the war. She has every right to grieve as she sees fit, publicly or privately. And since she chose to take her feelings and politics public – I fully support her and will continue to defend her.

  • MCH

    Nalle’s one of the editors now? When did that happen? I thought he was still just a Control Freak.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>What I find a bit goofy about this comment is that, had Cindy never made her questions public and kept them to herself, you never would have known who the hell she was at all.< <

    She was a well known figure before this recent protest. There are lots of ways to make your concern known - with a lot more dignity - without turning it into a media circus.

    >>Open season on the grieving mother of a fallen soldier?

    You’re exposing your meanest streak, Dave.< <

    When did I say it was 'open season'. I've maintained the same moderate postion, that she's a victim of partisan operatives and is being used.

    >>Would you have outed Valerie Plame’s CIA NOC, too? This seems to be the same line of thinking. Fair game, open season. Beastly.<<

    Totally irrelevant, and not something I would have done. There’s no connection or comparison between the two. This is a classic example of the fuzzy thinking that makes some people believe that anyone who is at all supportive of the president is inherently evil and would do all manner of wrongs – whether there’s any real evidence to support that belief or not.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Candlelight Vigils being held for Cindy Sheehan on 8/17/05

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    MCH

    The main page of this great site, all the way at the bottom – lists the editors and their sites.

    Mr Nalle is a good writer, misguided but good.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>ince you are an editor here at Blogcritics and have your own blog I have to wonder what your motives really are for stirring the pot here< <

    As always, the pursuit of truth and reason.

    >> and being a stellar writer yet so screamingly blind to what seems to be plain to everyone with a conscience: that Cindy Sheehan has every right to do what she’s doing. < <

    I have said OVER and OVER on this and other threads that I completely support her right to do and say whatever she wants. That's not even at issue here. I don't think anyone worth listening to denies her right to express her opinion. My concern is focused on those who are taking advantage of her for political reasons. Don't lump me in with the people who are attacking her personally.

    >>The media is crawling all over her – she didn’t invite them and she has no reason to hide from them either< <

    THIS is why I'm still discussing this topic, because people are saying things like this which just aren't true. She effectively has an entire PR staff from moveon.org whose job is to promote her and her vigil, to arrange press conferences and stroke the media. She's not just one person sitting in a field who the media discovered. If that were the case she'd have a legitimacy which few could argue with.

    >>Where’s your soul? I know where mine is and I have no problems with where it wants to be either. Sheehan is a grieving mother. She’s a victim of the war. She has every right to grieve as she sees fit, publicly or privately. And since she chose to take her feelings and politics public – I fully support her and will continue to defend her.<<

    She has the right to express hereself any way she likes and to make alliances with anyone she wants to promote any agenda she wants to. But when the message becomes political first and personal second, then she becomes fair game. That’s the point here. If it was just a personal issue for her then she should be left the hell alone, but it’s clearly a political campaign now and not hers alone.

    Dave

  • MCH

    Barbara;

    Well I’ll be dogged! No wonder he’s toned down all the name-calling of late.

    When Nalle first started posting on BC in about Dec or Jan, and up until about 2-3 weeks ago, a person couldn’t disagree with him without being called a “moron,” or a “dumbass,” or a “pinko.”

    Hhmmmm…

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Just you, MCH.
    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I mean that in the nicest way, though.

    Dave

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Nah, that was just with you, MCH.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    When did I say it was ‘open season’. I’ve maintained the same moderate postion, that she’s a victim of partisan operatives and is being used.

    Less than 10 comments back. 412.

    Once she did that then her grief ceased to be just a personal matter, and became a political strategy and it was open season.

    I do not think it’s fuzzy to mingle the terms “fair game” and “open season”. They mean the same basic thing. If it’s not within your scope of ideology, the Right thinks it’s fine to smear anyone – even if they’re the mother of a fallen soldier — in Plame’s case, even if they’re the wife of someone who challenges the President’s political stance. Nothing fuzzy here.

    Smear, spread around the stories about your target’s personal family hardships, call them anti-Semites, liars, commies, liken them to those who practice forgery – I’ve seen it all and I have to say the Right pundits have lost their sense of decency. *I didn’t say you did all this – I’m saying it’s happening and there’s not ONE fuzzy thing about it – it’s all about smear.

    The way I see you all attacking her, you’d think Sheehan was running for the President’s job rather than just begging to have him look her in the eye again.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    If Dave is an editor here at Blogcritics, he doesn’t look professional calling posters “dumbasses”.

    I would not like to see the discussion break down to this lowest level. Could all of us try to refrain from base name-calling?

    We didn’t succumb to John H’s trollwork – we got that far – so I think we can overcome this as well.

    Thanks!

  • http://http;?/barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>She effectively has an entire PR staff from moveon.org whose job is to promote her and her vigil, to arrange press conferences and stroke the media. She’s not just one person sitting in a field who the media discovered.<<

    No she was one person, sitting in a field, who the liberals saw was being OVERRUN with media, she was overwhelmed, her head was spinning and they stepped in to help & organize for her.

    And someday, Mr Nalle, when the truth bites you on the derriere – we liberals will be there for you too. Why? Because that’s just the way we are.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>No she was one person, sitting in a field, who the liberals saw was being OVERRUN with media, she was overwhelmed, her head was spinning and they stepped in to help & organize for her.< <

    Nice rewriting of history, but she was in touch with moveon.org and her handlers before she ever went to Crawford. This vigil is just the culmination of a campaign which has been building for months.

    >>And someday, Mr Nalle, when the truth bites you on the derriere – we liberals will be there for you too. Why? Because that’s just the way we are.<<

    I would expect fellow liberals to be on my side here and elsewhere. But nothing about the people who are supporting the Sheehan circus is liberal in any true sense of the word.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Don’t lump me in with the people who are attacking her personally.

    Yet, you seem to like to bring up her painfully public divorce – you did bring it up here. And let’s face it, you’ve been admittedly set against a new meeting between the lady and the President because of who’s WITH her – – and not taking into consideration her INDIVIDUAL quest. You said, early on:

    “..if I were Bush I’d stay out of it too. If you get down in the gutter with them you get dirty too.”

    Surely you cannot mean getting into the gutter with Cindy Sheehan? Why would you see (or lump) her as “gutter enemy” of America when, in her household, she raised an altar boy, honor student, Eagle Scout, Marine?

    This is surely not gutter material.

    In our Declaration of Independence, our individual conscience is raised to new heights of freedom.

    Assigning mob-motives to Cindy Sheehan’s individual conscience is something I can imagine Thomas Jefferson would have admonished you for doing.

    She’s not just one person sitting in a field who the media discovered.

    Ah – but that’s not the truth.
    She is there to wanting to meet her President – alone – face to face.

    That is her purpose.

    The rest of the circus is there to support her. She actually decried teh circus atmosphere today.

    No, Sir. This is Cindy Sheehan asking to meet with her President – the one who wishes to stay the course of the cause for which she sacrificed her son.

    We come into the world alone. We die alone. Casey Sheehan went to war because he felt a responsibility to his buddies. When he died in Iraq, he may have had fellow soldiers near him for support, yet he died alone.

    When Cindy goes home from Crawford, she may still have thousands of supporters, but she will be alone – in her grief.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    That’s just not true. She’s been an activist for while now. She started the Gold Star Families for Peace and is involved with afterdowningstreet.org. She wasn’t just sitting in a field and she announced her intentions to go to Crawford at the Veteran’s for Peace National Convention. So, please, don’t try to mischaracterize her as a naif.

    Does anyone actually believe she hasn’t been heard? Is there anything she has to add that she hasn’t said in any of her public appearances?

    She had her chance to speak and she now wants a do over. Take a number.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dave Nalle,

    Don’t you revise history, either. I can’t let untruths go by.

    Cindy Sheehan says she was not propped up to do this Crawford thing. So you are calling her a liar when you say this was some kind of plot.

    She says she did it on the “spur of the moment”.

    It was after Bush made his “dying for a noble cause” comment shortly after those reservists in Ohio got killed.

    I know she’s been in touch with members of the House on Capitol Hill, because I heard her testify at the Joint Committee Hearing on the Downing Street memo leaks a few months back.

    But this trip to Crawford is something that was spontaneous..and the support that’s pouring in from around the nation as every bit as spontaneous.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Hand Staple Forehead

    Noble cause?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    she now wants a do over

    Oy. Here we go again. We’ve discussed this before.

    Mrs. Sheehan’s hoped-for discussion with the President will not be a Groundhog Day experience in any way, shape or form.

    Mrs. Sheehan wouldn’t have had the full story on WMD at the time of the first meeting with Bush in June, 2004. On March 31, 2005, it was made clear, by an official Intelligence Capabilities Commission report, that WMD claims were dead wrong.

    Then came the Downing Street memo leaks.

    Then came so many Marines from Ohio dying in Iraq in one week – and Bush blathering out one too many slogans about ‘noble causes’ while nothing seems to be clear to Cindy – or most Americans (per recent polls).

    Definitely not Groundhog Day material.

    ________________

    Cindy Sheehan on the 1st Meeting w/Bush:
    I actually got to meet face to face with the president. He called me “Mom”because he didn’t know my name, and he didn’t know my son’s name — he just knows that he’s meeting with these families that have lost loved ones. He said, “Mom, I can’t imagine the pain you’re going through.”

    I said, “I think you can imagine it a little bit, Mr. President. You have daughters. How would you feel if one of them was killed?”

    I told him, “Trust me, Mr. President –- you don’t want to go there.”

    He said, “You’re right. I don’t.”

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    She started the Gold Star Families for Peace

    What do you have against decent American mothers and fathers who’ve lost their children to war?

    What? I’d really like to know.

    When did we get to a point in this country when an American – a decent American – cannot participate in their democracy without becoming a target of smears – or being labeled negatively at all?

    I’m sorry, that sounds neofascist to me. Are we so uneducated that we don’t understand that parents and families of fallen soldiers are fully entitled to participate in democracy?

    You act as if Cindy Sheehan is
    Karl Marx or a secret enemy spy.

    She lost her son in Iraq.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Don’t you revise history, either. I can’t let untruths go by.< <

    Unless you generate or repeat them.

    >>Cindy Sheehan says she was not propped up to do this Crawford thing. So you are calling her a liar when you say this was some kind of plot.

    She says she did it on the “spur of the moment”. < <

    I'm curious to see the exact quote before I accuse her of lying. She's been involved with moveon.org and acting as one of their mouthpieces for far longer than she's been in Crawford.

    >>I know she’s been in touch with members of the House on Capitol Hill, because I heard her testify at the Joint Committee Hearing on the Downing Street memo leaks a few months back. <<

    I can’t imagine how her testimony could possibly have been relevant to that hearing.

    Dave

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Oh, since I’m not with her I must be against her? Please. Because I disagree with her I have something “against decent American mothers and fathers who’ve lost their children to war?” Try a little more critical thought and little less emotionalism. I haven’t smeared her or labeled her negatively, I’ve only stated that I don’t agree that she’s entitled to a second chance to see the president, particularly given that she’s stated that her intention is to engage in political theater.

    And while it’s kind of stalkerish, I don’t have a problem with her following around the president or being on TV as much as she wants.

    Does participating in a democracy entitle citizens to a private audience with the president? Like I said before, take a number, she now needs to move to the end of the line behind the other 300 million Americans.

    “You act as if Cindy Sheehan is
    Karl Marx or a secret enemy spy.”
    I’m sorry this statement is just bizarre and untrue.

    Again, because you seem to have ignored these questions: Does anyone actually believe she hasn’t been heard? Is there anything she has to add that she hasn’t said in any of her public appearances?

  • MCH

    “I would expect fellow liberals to be on my side here and elsewhere.”
    – Dave Nalle

    WHAT!?! Now you’re trying to pass yourself off as a liberal? I was born at night, Nalle…but it wasn’t LAST night!

    Dave Nalle, meet Sybil.
    Sybil, this is Dave Nalle.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    MCH-

    I know that line was confusing, but Dave was responding to Barbara, who said that liberals would have his back if he suddenly found himself in a similar position to that of Mrs Sheehan.

    The way I see it, every decent American, regardless of ideology, would have his back.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    JUDE – “You act as if Cindy Sheehan is Karl Marx or a secret enemy spy.”

    DAVE – “I’m sorry this statement is just bizarre and untrue.”

    Bizarre? Please. You may think so, but surely I don’t.

    I asked JOE what he has against the Gold Star Families for Peace, since he’s using it as a clear “negative” in his case vs. Sheehan’s involveent with them. He avoided the question altogether, asking me to “try a little more critical thought and little less emotionalism.”

    If the removal of passion occurs in politics, there are no politics. Joe, while pretending to remove all feeling, tells Cindy, the grieving mother of a fallen soldier, to “take a number”.

    If Joe is not pretending and he actually feels nothing either way, I think he comes off sounding like a cold prick, and I think most people would see it that way.

    I’m not ashamed to remind Joe or Dave por any of you that being human involves the business of feeling something. None of you woudl be here right now talking about this if we didn’t care one way or the other.

    (I’m still waiting for the answer to my question, Joe. What do you have against the Gold Star Families for Peace?)

    She’s been involved with moveon.org and acting as one of their mouthpieces for far longer than she’s been in Crawford.

    And this makes her….what? Evil? Karl Marx? A commie? A secret enemy spy? LIBERAL?

    Does it remove or supercede the fact that she is the mother of Casey Sheehan who raised him to love his country and his fellow citizens want the best for it?

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Jude-
    Actually you didn’t ask me what I had against Gold Star Families for Peace, you asked me “What do you have against decent American mothers and fathers who’ve lost their children to war?” and while not mutually exclusive, those two groups aren’t totally synonomous. I have nothing “against” GSFP, I just think they’re a political organization and like any other they’ve got an axe to grind. Don’t accuse me of avoiding a question you didn’t clearly ask.

    So I’ve answered your question and I’ll ask mine (for the third time): Does anyone actually believe she hasn’t been heard? Is there anything she has to add that she hasn’t said in any of her public appearances?

    “If Joe is not pretending and he actually feels nothing either way, I think he comes off sounding like a cold prick, and I think most people would see it that way.” And this has what bearing on the argument other than giving you the opportunity to insult me? C’mon, you’re better than that!

  • JR

    We invaded Iraq to send a message to the terrorists. Haven’t we been heard? Should we go home now?

  • MCH

    Wow Jude, this post has turned out to be a hot topic…442 comments in only eight days (and counting).

    E.O. or Phillip, I know you’ve had at least a dozen posts with over 400, but any idea if you’ve ever had one make it faster than this one? Just curious.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Oh, Joe, is there any axe more understandably grindable than a mom or dad losing their child? A husband losing his wife? A child losing her father?

    By the way, I have never sought to insult you. I find that you have taken offense where you needn’t have. This is a frank discussion. I think, when anyone would say to a mother of a fallen soldier “Take a number,” they would, indeed, come off looking like that “cold prick.”

    To answer your question, Cindy is being heard by the media. We are just one small example here at Blogcritics.

    We are not the reason Cindy went to Crawford, but I believe that this one lone woman will be the tipping point one will look back upon when analyzing a drastic change in public perception about the war and the President’s handling of it.

    There’s one thing she could add to her public statements that she hasn’t, to date:

    “I met with President Bush. Now I’m going home.”

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    MCH,

    I think people feel strongly about this issue, and that’s why you’re seeing so much participation in the discussion. I see a tenacity on the issue, on whichever side of the fence you land on, that you don’t always see… and that can be a very healthy thing for political progress.

    There is a diverse group of Americans (as well as a few citizens of other nations) having a frank discussion – and I find it encouraging, after seeing so much trashing of one another on bitterly partisan websites.

    I’m impressed with the crowd you’ve attracted here at Blogcritics, and I hope to continue to be a contributing part of the future of the site.

    Thanks to all of you (except John H, perhaps, haha) for your participation up until now.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    “is there any axe more understandably grindable than a mom or dad losing their child? A husband losing his wife? A child losing her father?” Certainly, but there’s plenty of people in the same situation who hold opposite opinions, so why try to assert ones loss as a source of moral authority?

    Hey, you’re entitled to you opinion but understand when I say “to a mother of a fallen soldier “Take a number,” It is to this particular mother of a fallen soldier who has already had her opportunity and has spent the past year at least working as an activist and publicly denouncing the president. Anybody who has lost a son and hasn’t met with the president already, and wasn’t trying to pull a publicity stunt I’d willingly support.

    Just an observation and maybe you can explain. When the Terry Schaivo thing was going down, it kind of creeped me out that people started referring to her by only her first name, like they had some type of personal connection with her. I see the same thing happening and was kind of poking fun at that with the CINDY! shtick earlier. You do it above, why is that do you think?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Michael J. West has written an interesting piece here at Blogcritics today – he seems to personally believe it’s hypocritical for him to get involved on the issue of Cindy Sheehan because he would feel as if he was exploiting her grief. That, of course, is a personal decision, and I have come to decide that if you are not a parent and if you have not raised a child, you may not have a full capacity for the empathy or passion it takes to want to lend moral support to the mother of a fallen soldier.

    This was my reply:

    I am a mother, and I am raising my son to love his country, to respect the office of the President, and to plan to serve it someday if he so desires.

    I want to be able to put my complete trust in my leader. It’s not just tax dollars that might be on the line – it’s my life and my blood.

    Look around our Congress and tell me which sons (or daughters) of our Representatives are serving.

    George Pataki, the governor of NY State, has a son who is serving in the military – and he’s going for a student deferrment so he won’t be shipped off to Iraq.

    Who is serving in Iraq? The sons and daughters of people like myself.

    I could be that woman in Crawford. I honestly think I WOULD be that woman in Crawford, if the same thing had happened to my family.

    I support Cindy Sheehan who is out on that prairie road doing what her heart and soul tells her she must do. It is not for herself alone that she does it. The spirit of her son is beside her out there.

    If you can look at her – and if you want to state that you have no conviction that you wish to convey because you think it might arouse a political suspicion or harm her in some way, let me just say that I don’t think she can be harmed much more than believing her son may have died for a cause that is less than noble.

    She wants to be convinced that in the end, it will have been a noble cause, and I believe that the President’s cavalier attitude about “remaining balanced” while on vacation is in stark contrast to this woman’s pleas to see him again…and it reinforces her belief that the cause is not as noble as the slogans claim it to be.

    A contrast to Mr. West’s piece can be seen at the One America website or my link. Elizabeth Edwards, wife of former Sen John Edwards, has the capacity for empathy which I’d mentioned. She knows what it’s like to lose a child, and she’s written a beautiful piece about it here. We’re all Americans – and as one America, I believe we can come to understand that first and foremost, Cindy Sheehan is Casey Sheehan’s mother.

    If you’re all lucky enough to still have her with you on this Earth, you all have a mother.

    The ones with the most to sacrifice in our wars are the ones who deserve answers to their questions.

    Our mothers.
    Ourselves.

  • Nancy

    The scandal is that none of the scumbags who back this war are fighting in it, or have anyone who is. Every single politician who voted for the war, regardless of party, should be required to go to the battlefront & serve for at least a week, or have a relative – preferably a child or grandchild – serve for him or her. As things are now, they have no real stakes in it, since they & theirs are in no sort of danger & never will be, and they know it.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Michelle Catalano repeats the strange talking point about a Schiavo/Sheehan issue comparison while tearing apart a Rosa Parks/Sheehan connection.

    Curious stuff, people.

    She says: “The flesh-eating leeches of the left have glommed onto Sheehan’s grief as if it were some magic potion that would miraculously make all their dreams of getting Bush out of the White House come true.”

    “Flesh-eating”? “Blood sucking leeches?” “..from those who don’t give an ounce of shit about Sheehan or her dead son except what they can do for the cause”???

    Ouch. Pretty nasty language for someone claiming to want extremists to..uh… drop the nasty language.

    I’d say Michelle is sitting in pretty harsh judgement as to why some of the people are in Crawford supporting Cindy Sheehan today.

    My reply:
    This seems to be a popular talking point today and it seems to attempt to dim the focus of Cindy Sheehan’s actual quest, which is simply to have a new meeting with President Bush and ask him questions that prey upon her mind and soul.

    The Schiavo and Sheehan issues are not at all alike.

    It’s easy to forget how simple her request is because of the circus atmosphere, but all the circus is doing is trying to either say they want answers, too – – or they want to make a visceral political attack upon her because she dares to question a man who is an elected leader – surely not a King or a God.

    I don’t think he can politically afford to meet with her. He’s caught in a trap.

    The world watches, because of the circus surrounding Camp Casey.

    Michelle asks where the “humanity” has gone, and I’m looking at it right there in Crawford – I see it in the eyes of Rosemary Palmer and Paul Schroeder who lost their boy Augie to this war. That is humanity. That is what keeps me focused on this issue.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Hey, I wasn’t trying to make a comparison between the Shaivo and Shindler issues, I was comparing the actions of folks that were pimping them.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Now it is kind of odd that you’re trying to establish qualifications to have “a full capacity for the empathy or passion it takes to want to lend moral support to the mother of a fallen soldier.” Is the reader to infer that unless they’ve met this criteria, their point of view is a little less valid? I mean does that really make a difference? I thought it was important for all viewpoints to be considered?

    So following that logic, would that mean if I lost a child then I would have a greater capacity for empathy than someone who didn’t (because as we all know, mothers never kill their children)? Or what if I had more children? Or children in the service… Sort of a slippery slope you’ve chosen to follow.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    FROM: Editorial/ Fosters Online / Dover Delaware link

    Right now, America lacks great resolve. Vigils like Sheehan’s shed doubt on our ability to stick to the task at hand in the Middle East.

    One reason for this is the great silence coming from Washington ? and Crawford, Texas.

    When Franklin Roosevelt announced that the United States was going to war, he did so with great resolve and determination. So, did President Bush.

    Roosevelt, on the other hand, continued to rally the country and the troops.

    President Bush has not been so remiss in this duty as he as been misinformed by his advisers.

    Losing the war in Vietnam set a new tone for future wars that would engage our troops.

    It set fear in the hearts of mothers and fathers that they would again have to sacrifice their children to an ignoble cause.

    Sheehan and the other mothers standing vigil are frightened and angry. They have not been rallied by the unity that drove the United States to victory in WWII. They are plagued by the despair that drove us out of Vietnam.

    The administration must deal with this despair.

    Meeting with Sheehan may not be politically correct; it probably won’t happen. But the reasoning behind Sheehan’s protest must be dealt with.

    Wars by their nature are not won overnight. They take time, patience and lives.

    It is the administration’s job to remind us of that ? constantly and with great conviction.

    ____________________

    My question is: WHY CAN’T THEY? WHY WON’T THEY?

    The problem is TRUST.

    I believe that many Americans currently think they were misled when we made war upon Iraq.

    Trust is an awful thing for a leader to lose. Americans greatly value the belief that they can trust their leaders, even at the roughest times.

    The Bush administration MUST open up to us – end their secrecy and appearance of confusion or hiding something from mothers of fallen soldiers – or FAIL.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Now it is kind of odd that you’re trying to establish qualifications to have “a full capacity for the empathy or passion it takes to want to lend moral support to the mother of a fallen soldier.” Is the reader to infer that unless they’ve met this criteria, their point of view is a little less valid?

    Absolutely NOT.

    I am merely demonstrating how people can see things in very different ways.

    No one is suggesting that Mr. West’s view should be invalidated by another view.

  • MCH

    Nancy;
    Only one week? You’re letting them off too easy. They should be there the full 12-month tour.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    If I lost a child then I would have a greater capacity for empathy than someone who didn’t?

    Yes. I believe that to be true and not at all unreasonable. Why do you find it such a ludicrous concept?

    (because as we all know, mothers never kill their children)?

    If you want to change the topic altogether, you may wish to start a new column on Abortion or Murder – or whatever issue you’re pointing to.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    No, not changing the topic just pointing out that the sanctity of motherhood does have it’s limits.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I wasn’t trying to make a comparison between the Shaivo and Shindler issues, I was comparing the actions of folks that were pimping them.

    Since you did bring it up, George W Bush himself “pimped” the Schiavo issue, speeding from Crawford, TX, back to Washington, D.C., at 2 a.m. to sign a bill overturning 20 state and federal court rulings.

    Not so with the Sheehan case. Nope. He needs to remain “balanced” and “biking” while she sits just outside his gates.

  • John H

    Back again folks……… Looks like MSG John has a few things right, see #s 320, 331, 360, 361, 371, 391. Good to hear real Americans speak, not peac4e freaks. Good to see someone fired a gun in protest (against the protest), isn’t that a Constitutional right? And a good farmer got out his tractor and expressed HIS opinion, but was ARRESTED. ARRESTED? For exercising his opinion? And you lot are out there criticizing the President of the United States? Are you crazy? Then someone gets on and supports HEMP, like we don’t know this is cannabis. Who is funding you? Terrorists? Effendi, who says he is a US troop? Is he an infiltrator? Are you all trying to undermine the country? And some of you claiming conspiracy theories. Every time there is some terror event you claim it was the US government. I bet you’re all gonna say that next month when Iranians attack London and Paris. That will teach you a lesson, the Metro in flames and the London Eye crashed into the river and you lot will be coming up with stupid conspiracy theories. Maybe you ought to keep your mouths shut, because people will really be against you and all the parents of troops who act like stupid kids. You’re crusing for a bruising.
    John H (not afraid to stand up for my government)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Joe,

    Smearing motherhood now? I find that to be so cheesy.

    Your political attack upon the sanctity of motherhood is likely to get you nowhere in this debate.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Sorry, got sympathy and empathy mixed up there for a minute, but really thats not a given anyway, it varies by individual.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Oh, please, spare me the melodrama. Pointing out a fact is not the same is smearing, or are you denying that there aren’t mothers out there who harm their children. And please enlighten me as to how that is a “political attack?”

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Re: Comment 459

    Oh heavens- have the meds worn off?
    Did he escape from the gates of “Homeland Security”?
    Someone call the nice young men in the clean white coats from “Homeland Security” *wink* and tell them that John H has escaped again. Tell them to bring the straitjacket.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Pointing out a fact is not the same is smearing

    It’s a pretty fine line you’re walking there, Joe.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    “Since you did bring it up, George W Bush himself “pimped” the Schiavo issue, speeding from Crawford, TX, back to Washington, D.C., at 2 a.m. to sign a bill overturning 20 state and federal court rulings.

    Not so with the Sheehan case. Nope. He needs to remain “balanced” and “biking” while she sits just outside his gates.”

    Which is the appropriate response because “The Schiavo and Sheehan issues are not at all alike.”, remember?

    And c’mon the suspense is killing me, what’s the deal with the CINDY! thing?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Cindy is the woman’s name.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    I had surmised that much. So why the one named celebrity treatment which is usually reserved for divas or political symbols in a permanent vegatative state?

  • Dallas

    To Jude and others –

    It’s Cindy Sheehan herself that keeps mentioning prayers and faith. All I’ve done is point out where it all fits within certain Biblical scriptures themselves. That simply pinting out scriptures bothers some of you tells me what I already know, and confirms what I wrote about yesterday: The Democratic Party is dying because those of us who have long supported the party can’t even bring faith into the discussions of the issues of the day without being attacked.

    Sorry, but since 1994 we’ve been getting beaten nationally and at the state level. It doesn’t faze some of you because you are too blind to see you’re killing the Party that can best stand up for individual rights. America is full of Christians – Democrat and Republican – but, our Party is losing more and more people who vote based of faith because we can’t discuss or acknowledge it.

    Whether you consider it pandering or honest belief, the Republicans are discussing the issues of the day with faith and are winning! We are losing. What are the effects of our ten year losing streak? Look at the new Supreme Court nominee. He’s as conservative, if not moreso, as Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia. But, yet he’ll slip in there easily and replace O’Conner’s middle-of-the-road vote because we’re too hardheaded to try to reach out to the biggest voting bloc in America! We’re wasting our time chasing what windmills Michael Moore, MoveOn.org, and Howard Dean plant in our minds, wasting our time on issues that don’t move the bulk of middle America.

    Wake up, fellow Democrats! You can’t just keep brushing those of us with Judeo-Christian beliefs out of the picture without losing more and more elections. And with the loss of more elections, the loss of more influence of everything – judicial, legislature, foreign policy – all of it!

    Something else you should make you wake up as well, friends. Because of all of this Cindy Sheehan business the Karl Rove scandal has been knocked out of the headlines. So, within a span of two weeks, we go from having Rove and Bush on the run to a dog-and-pony show staged by the same far-left people and pitches that got us our butts handed to us (again) in November!

    Can you people not see that? Bush and Rove are laughing at the ease with which we are distracted by the far-left wing of our Party. Wake up!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>WHAT!?! Now you’re trying to pass yourself off as a liberal? I was born at night, Nalle…but it wasn’t LAST night! <<

    Oddly enough, I actually am what people call a ‘classical liberal’ – look up what liberalism is actually all about sometime. Modern leftists and Democrats are not exactly real liberals.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Dallas…

    part of the “problems” you are talking about stem form the fact that there are many in politics that understand the secular nature of our governmental system

    if you will note, the GOP side has used the extreme of christian organizations to further their political causes, attempting to intergrate their own figures with messianic aura and propagating the advocacy of “the End of Days”

    do you honestly think this is god for either our Republic or Christianity?

    i am neither dem nor repub…but i woudl hate seeing the dems stoop to such hypocritical lows as has been the case for many in the GOP n the last 15-20 years…

    or haven’t you seen the “moral majority’s” Ralph Reed’s interview stating that it’s now “time to cash in”?

    on and on

    faith and religion do NOT belong in politics…and politics does NOT belong in church

    that’s kind of what the Establishment clause is all about, isn’t it?

    “morals” and “ethics” are one thing, and should be applauded in public life…but using your “faith” as some kind of badge to garner a few votes demeans both sides of a Life

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Dallas,

    I never attacked you for bringing up faith issues.

    Show me wheer I did.

    You seem to want to turn this into a platform for something having very little to do with Cindy Sheehan.

  • gonzo marx

    yes he does Jude…i am half wondering if ti isn’t a “shill” doing the Masqerade…i could be wrong, just noticing some things in what is being typed…

    just my one sixth billionths of the world’s Opinion

    Excelsior!

  • Shark

    Vigil for Cindy Sheehan

    “Tonight, August 17, 2005 7:30PM

    Cindy Sheehan, mother of Army Specialist Casey Sheehan who was killed in Iraq, continues her vigil outside President Bush’s ranch in Crawford, Texas.

    She was recently joined by more moms who lost a child in Iraq and other military families.

    Meanwhile President Bush continues his five-week vacation and pledged Thursday to keep U.S. troops in Iraq — meaning more moms will lose a child.

    Cindy has asked supporters to start candlelight vigils in their communities to support her and call for an end to the war. So, MoveOn is teaming up with True Majority and Democracy for America to host Vigils for Cindy Sheehan tonight, August 17th, to show our solidarity with Cindy.

    Our vigils will be simple and dignified. Together, we’ll acknowledge the sacrifices made by Cindy Sheehan, her son, Casey and the more than 1,800 brave American men and women who have given their lives in Iraq — and their moms and families.”

    ===== from MoveOn.org =====

    See ya there, Dave!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    For Dallas’ information, one of the best websites for the promotion of reclaiming faith in politics is TALK TO ACTION.

    As I said, I have NEVER attacked you about faith issues.

    As a matter of fact, I have been directly involved in conferences about faith and politics, and plan to attend my next one in February.

    We really know very little about who we’re talking to.

    Attack you, Dallas?

    Never did it.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>See ya there, Dave!<<

    Sorry Shark, I’ve got a neighborhood association meeting. Can you fill in for me?

    Dave

  • kg

    I am a former squid, that is the Navy, and I never, never thought I would see right-wingers running over servicemen’s graves. Dancing no doubt. The service has to do to Bush what gets done to those who are just abusing it…I won’t say in a public forum what that is. Another thing is that many people are now sure he did 9/11…look at facts and see what I mean.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>, I actually am what people call a ‘classical liberal’ < <

    Is that like being a Barry Goldwater Republican??

    :)

  • Jeffrey

    Arrest her for disturbing the peace…

    She is being used by the anti-war crowd who is so misguided that they want us to LOSE the war.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    What does “losing” mean in this war?
    I’d like Jeffrey to answer this one, since he says he doesn’t want “us” to lose.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    There’s an LA Times article I thought everyone would be interested to read.

    Politics of War Could Pivot on Mother’s Vigil

    I attended my local vigil for Cindy Sheehan tonight. It was a great turnout and there was a wonderfully diverse crowd of people there. There was singing, candle-burning, all local media was there. I was interviewed for our local newspaper and one of our major talk radio stations. People are energized – the major theme I heard is that they were sick of the slogans. Americans need someone who’ll talk straight with them – even if things aren’t going so great in Iraq. It’s very obvious, seeing how this woman has triggered the energizing of so many people, that the message they are hearing is not translating to the reality in Iraq.

    Another major theme is that smear tactics against Cindy Sheehan from the Right are driving the average person away – far away. People are fed up with the polarization in America. The uglier the smearing gets, the more the people flock to Cindy Sheehan’s defense.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    To Dallas,

    Here’s another site where no one is afraid to talk about faith.

    Jesus Politics

    Read the stories.

    My own blog (Iddybud) is included as a link on their blogroll.

    Dems are not afraid to talk about faith issues, and once again, I have never attacked you for bring them up.

    About your Plamegate story concerns – I know a bit about bloggers, and it’s that most of us can chew gum and walk at the same time. The story has not gone away – Patrick Fitzgerald is still investigating.

  • John911

    The establishment of religion clause of the constitution is not about separation of church and state but about forbidding an official religion like the Church of England. One would have to be a total idiot or a liberal to think the founding fathers wanted God out of the government, courts and schools. As for Cindy Sheehan, no one needs to smear her. Her shrill denunciations and intemperate remarks about Israel, the President, our “occupation” of Iraq are only outdone by those she supports and those who support her: Lynn Stewart, Howard Dean and Michael Moore. The grieving mother long ago became just another left-wing activist with an extreme political agenda. The war may have cost her a son, 24 yr. old Casey Sheehan, but her rhetoric has cost her a marriage, the goodwill of her family and rightfully earned her the scorn of people who know that with freedom comes a cost…whether it be free speech or freedom from dictatorship. People unwilling to pay that cost are unworthy of either.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    A quote for John 911:

    “I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our god and our consciences, for which we were accountable to him, and not to the priests. I never told my own religion, nor scrutinised that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another’s creed . . . it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read.”

    (Letter to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, August 6, 1816 from the dang “liberal idiot” Thomas Jefferson)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “…her rhetoric has cost her a marriage, the goodwill of her family and rightfully earned her the scorn of people who know that with freedom comes a cost.”

    You do mean freedom for Iraqis, right? I see, by all your talking points, that you must not care much for socialism – yet strangely, this is the most socialist war I’ve ever seen our nation fight. We are using our combat troops to build schools and infrastructure for Iraqis and we often restrain our combat soldiers, in a land filled with hornets, not to shoot too quickly in case we lose their hearts and minds. (I got that nugget of truth from a reservist who recently returned). To boot, they don’t even WANT us there. A good chunk of their transitional government recently voted for us to leave their nation.

    We’re supposed to be defeating extremism, knowing there are networks spread out around the globe and we’re playing socialistic footsie in a very insecure Iraq, where there was never any 9/11 connection.

    The Bush administration was never willing to commit the resources necessary to secure the country and they didn’t make the most of the resources it had.

    Now we’re desperate for an Iraq constitution deal and if Iraqis can agree at all, we will likely see Iraqis agree on a constitution which ducks all the main issues.

    And you sit there and pass gossip and judgement on the conscience of the lone mother of one of those good, loyal, and decent men who was killed by those f**king hornets. I think you’re the one who deserves some scorn, frankly.

    Even HENRY KISSINGER is saying this is looking like Vietnam! He says we cannot begin with an exit without having first defined what the objective is.

    Where’s the objective? This is nightmarish – and it’s not Cindy Sheehan’s fault for pointing out the fact that the emperor is wearing no clothes.

    How does creating a new sewer for terrorists to swim around in make anyone free – even Iraqis? (which is really who our soldiers are fighting for, let’s face it. We know that Iraq posed minimal to no threat to us.)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    He should have listened to himself instead of neocons.

    “I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don’t think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we’ve got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation-building. I would be very careful about using our troops as nation-builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.”

    – George W. Bush

  • John911

    Response To Jude:

    Founding Father’s quote, eh? Ok…

    “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible” George Washington

    “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations.” Patrick Henry

    “I have lived, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth — that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?” Benjamin Franklin

    “The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” John Adams

    And finally:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ” 1st Ammendment to the Constitution

    Our founding father’s never intended the establishment of religion to mean what the courts of the 60’s have interpreted it to mean. Its the courts, again, who have interfered with our rights to freely exercise our faith.

    Back to Sheehan. No one has to make her look bad. They have only to repeat her own words back at her to reveal her true intent. She herself said she met with President Bush two months after the death of her son. She herself describes her anger after the 2004 election. She has both a right to speak and a right to be condemned out of her own mouth. Waving her own dead son Casey at the President is bad enough, co-opting the war dead of others who do not share her views dishonors them all.

  • John911

    PS: If you are going to quote Thomas Jefferson, use the big one:

    “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

    Note that the first mention of the term separation of church and State comes 30 years later, and how most people, including the courts, keep ignoring the part that talks of free exercise of religion.

    As for quoting Henry Kissenger, gimme a break. Just his association with Richard Nixon, let alone the so-called peace talks in Paris, cement his place in history.

    Like Cindy Sheehan. While many would decry her 1st Ammendment right to free speech, what I find objectionable is her doing so on the backs of our war dead.

    I presume only to speak for myself. What does it say about Cindy Sheehan or her stand that she defends her actions with mistruths, half-truths and belated recollectons that conflict with her previous statements? I have always found the arguments of others that misrepresent the facts to be a sure sign they known they are wrong. Why else do they bolster their arguments with deceit?

  • gonzo marx

    but getting re-elected on the backs of our war dead is ok with you?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, many might argue that Bush got reelected despite the many war dead, not because of them.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    yeah, drink more kool-aid

    he did run as the “war president”…

    you know..flight suit…”mission accomplished” and all that

    so spare me the bullshit

    Excelsior!

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Congressman John Conyers: Help Support Cindy Sheehan:

    http://www.johnconyers.com/

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>Is that like being a Barry Goldwater Republican??<<

    Just about identical, Barbara. Goldwater was a classical liberal in most ways too – certainly by the end of his career.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Geez, Gonzo. Have more faith in the American people. You don’t honestly think a flight suit and a photo op with a sign would make them turn all stupid and vote for the wrong guy?

    This isn’t all about the election, but IMO Bush got reelected in spite of the state of the war, not because of it. People weren’t entirely happy with the way the war was going, but they were pretty sure Kerry would screw it up even worse.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    read 486 to see why i said what i did in 487

    as for my “faith” in the american people

    in a word…no

    i DO think that many folks are didinterested or ill informed…many are easily fooled because they WANT to believe…

    how many, in the past election , made hteir decision(however well meaning) based on “values” issues?…such as being anti-gay marriage…

    how many actually did their homework on the actual “issues” ?

    and as soon as it was all said and done, in one of the closest elections ever…all we heard was about “majority” and “mandate”

    well, the tide is shifting as more folks start paying attention…at least according to quite fallible polls

    wonder why i am cynical?

    check your prime time TV lineup..

    hell, scope out how many threads there are here on BC about harry potter or american idol

    tuff to maintain a Jest when all around is ablaze

    but i digress..

    Excelsior!

  • John911

    Which just goes to prove what I’ve suspected all along: This is about Bush the President, rather than Bush the Commander in Chief. Geez, get over it. The Democrats controlled voting precincts in Florida where: A) They couldn’t remember to clean out chads out of the voting machines so they’d work properly even for dummies; and, B) Dummies who couldn’t be bothered to check to make sure the chads had been cleanly punched (like the instructions tell you to, and have done so long before the Florida brouhaha); and, C) Dummies who couldn’t be bothered to vote who made the election so close to begin with.

    Normally, the losers stop pissing and moaning after a little while and look forward to winning the next election. The left has been shooting its mouth off and shooting itself in the foot for 5 yrs. Do you honestly expect us to forget Democrats in the House and Senate believed the same faulty intelligence the rest of us did when they voted Bush authority to attack Iraq? Do you honestly expect us to believe Bush was a liar, rather than mistaken like the majority of us, about WMD’s in Iraq when not even the most skeptical Democrats can come up with proof he lied? Geez, between interviews, interrogation, physical evidence and documents we now know that while Saddam Hussein was set to mass produce WMD’s as soon as the sanctions were lifted (You remember, those sanctions the left said we should lift because they weren’t working), he deliberately set out to give the impression he did have WMD’s, secure in the advice the Russians and secret intelligence the French were relaying that the US would never invade without the approval of the UN. Oops. Ruse worked, bluff called. Murderous dictator zero, Iraqi’s won.

    True the majority of Iraqi’s now want both the US and the foreign insurgents out. Oh, you haven’t noticed that the hard line insurgents are either foreigners or deposed Bath party members? Funny how those details wouldn’t slip your mind if they proved your point of view.

    Also funny after losing the last two elections and slamming the trend towards family values how the left is now courting middle of the road Democrats and Republicans by claiming they were for those values after all. Sort of like Teddy Kennedy claiming to be for women’s rights. Not as believable as laughable.

    So please don’t trot out Cindy Sheehan and expect me to believe that Michael Moore and Howard Dean and the rest aren’t using her and she isn’t using them and us for her own agenda. Be honest. If you can’t win without being dishonest, what does that say about you and your cause?

  • Nancy

    Ref: post 492, yes Dave, I DO believe the average American is that stupid. I believe it because I saw it in Nov. 2004.

  • Nancy

    Also, Ms. Sheehan has every right to base her case on the war dead – especially her own. At least she has one; how many kids (of his own) has Bush lost?

    As Gonzo says, ’nuff said.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    reveal her true intent..

    You mean the fact that she’s angry that her son died for a war of which the President is not capabale of rallying the nation?

    Gee- I wonder why, john 911.

    I mean, I’d be dancing with joy on my tippie-toes if I was her!

    She’s a bold and brave woman. Some would shrink away in their grief.

    She, like most of America right now, wants to know what the President plans to do about the mess he created, as Commander in Chief, when he failed to have a post-war plan..and not using sufficient numbers required to constitute overwhelming force.. or sufficient numbers of warriors to reasonably protect borders and guard weapons dumps.

    That wasn’t Cindy’s responsibility.

    You know whose responsibility it was.

  • John911

    Nancy seems not to get the point, like many on this site. Cindy is not a war supporter who got religion, she was always against the war. She was against her son enlisting and against his serving. I don’t object to her grief, just to her co-opting the war dead of others who have angrily said she doesn’t speak for them.

    And if only having lost someone in the war entitles you to speak, I’d suggest this site would be a ghost town. While my Dakota Sioux ancesters fought with the Army rather than for it (you invaded our land, remember? Go home!), my father served with the Marine defenders of Wake Island in 1941, my mother was an Army surgical nurse drafted for Korea, my older brother served in the Army during the Vietnam conflict and my nieces husbands both served in Iraq. So put up or shut up. Trot out your dead or take your pale faces off our land. Enuf said.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    the hard line insurgents are either foreigners or deposed Bath party members? Funny how those details wouldn’t slip your mind if they proved your point of view

    Wow. That is funny.
    Because it’s bullcrap.

    Those Baath party soldier were another major flub by the Commander in Chief. They could have been recruited to engage in our cause early on – we told them to f*** off instead.

    Most of the “hard line insurgents” are Sunni Arabs – Iraqi citizens. Approximately 15 percent of the population who are Sunni Arabs, primarily of the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, subscribe to a broad spectrum of ideologies and affiliations, many of which have little to do with religion. Their ethnic identity is more of a force for either social unity or discord than their religious identity.

    Iraq’s Sunni Arabs believe things have never been worse. As recently as two months ago, Sunni Arabs accused Shiite militiamen of killing their clerics and hounding them out of government jobs to make way for supporters of ruling coalition parties. These are not a majority of foreign fighters we’re talking about here, people.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Do you honestly expect us to forget Democrats in the House and Senate believed the same faulty intelligence the rest of us did when they voted Bush authority to attack Iraq? Do you honestly expect us to believe Bush was a liar, rather than mistaken like the majority of us, about WMD’s in Iraq when not even the most skeptical Democrats can come up with proof he lied?

    People play hard and cheap with their words sometimes. Accusing someone of lying is a pretty serious charge, especially when it’s the President.

    I’ve been through this already with Dave Nalle, but here I go again…

    As far as I’m concerned, I do not have any proof that President Bush wittingly lied to us about WMD.

    I do think, after careful study over the last couple of years, that there were improprieties and political manipulations of classified information that stopped our Representatives from getting the full picture of teh risk probabilities. They, like America’s citizens, were misled with only the information the White House wanted them to see. Sen Pat Roberts has been used as a political tool as ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committe to cut off any investigation into the matter of the White House USE of the intelligence.

    In essence, the cutting off of material information needed to make an appropriate decision about war, along with political pressure from Bush’s bully-pulpit led us to a war we never should have begun.

    Who do I blame for that?

    Well, Harry Truman would have told you, loud and clear, where the buck stops.

    Not Bush. He’s pretty silent when it comes to taking personal responsibility for his obvious mistakes.

    He’s the guy who took the worst advice a President has ever taken from a group of neoconservative war-planners: Don’t worry – they’ll greet us with cheers and flowers…

    He accepted that.

    If he didn’t lie outright, it doesn’t mean our nation wasn’t lied into war.

    We were.

    And this is Cindy Sheehan’s fault because…….

    The buck stops with Cindy Sheehan instead of the President because…..

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    People weren’t entirely happy with the way the war was going, but they were pretty sure Kerry would screw it up even worse.

    Your second-guessing about what Kerry may have done as President makes me wish he’d had a chance to get this right. I think he probably would have. I’m recalling how many high-ranking military officers came out to support him last year. If only….

  • John911

    Hey Jude (Sorry, couldn’t help myself),

    I understand your second guessing. People second guessed FDR’s decision to let the Soviets partition Germany, leading to a 30 plus year cold war and the subjugation of millions of eastern europeans. People second guessed JFK’s decision to send military advisors to replace the French in Vietnam, or his decision to launch the Bay of Pigs attack against Castro. They second guessed LBJ’s decision to send more troops, Nixon’s decision to bomb North Vietnam, George H. Bush’s invasion of Grenada and Iraq, his deicison not to sweep into Baghdad and root out Saddam and WJC’s decision to let UBL escape to Afghanistan when the Sudanese offered to turn him over to us. Hind sight is always 20-20. Like how some people felt when Saddam and his forces were routed with less than a thousand casualties. The naysayers predicted higher. I can only imagine how they felt when they found out most Iraqi’s were happy he was gone, or that the sanctions that weren’t working weren’t working because the UN was corrupt, the Russians trading training and equipment for oil and the French were relaying confidential briefing material from Washington to Baghdad. Who could have known?

    I do object to you calling Cindy Sheehan bold and brave when the words your are looking for are brazen and bitter. Ms. Sheehan is bold…a bold faced liar in her change of accounts of her first meeting with the President? Brave? Her son Casey was brave, to use that word to describe his mother’s brazen attempts to sway the people to abandon Iraq and the Iraqi’s at this late stage belittles the concept. Brave people seldom do the easy thing to do. Are you trying to tell me being a left-wing, anti-war, anti-GWB agitator is difficult for her?

  • Effendi

    [Geez, Gonzo. Have more faith in the American people. You don’t honestly think a flight suit and a photo op with a sign would make them turn all stupid and vote for the wrong guy?]

    O man, are WE the stupid ones now Dave?
    Of COURSE Rove Thought that a flight suit a photo op and a sign WOULD help stupefy the American people and help make them vote for the wrong guy AND IT WORKED. That is WHY he did it. It was not just a series of “events” it was calculated misinformation swallowed hook, line and sinker.

    Let me tell you my lack/loss of faith in the American people Dave, that so many of them can be so easily swayed by superficial false make-up such as that. The worst part is folks such as yourself coming around years later suggesting how ridiculous such an idea is. We were THERE Dave, we REMEMBER the underhanded lies pulled by Rove and associates in order to win a re-election. Many of us were not “fooled” at the time and your current attempt at revisionism is embarrassing at best.

    [This isn’t all about the election, but IMO Bush got reelected in spite of the state of the war, not because of it.]

    I disagree Dave, without a “created war” bush had NOTHING, a steadily worsening economy, ever increasing oil prices. On and On. There has been no talk about the 50 million Americans without health care, No REAL improvement in jobs for Americans. The 190,000 jobs created were minimum wage service jobs, not jobs able to help some Americans actually put sufficient food on the table. Without the war Dave, the administration would have been FORCED to deal with issues that they were not prepared to deal with in regards to the American people, since the war there has been no discussion of any REAL issues. On top of that, the entire re-election was based on those words “I’m A WAR TIME President”. You say that bush got re-elected in spite of the war not because of it?..I call Bullshit!!

    [People weren’t entirely happy with the way the war was going, but they were pretty sure Kerry would screw it up even worse.Dave]

    Please tell me HOW ANYONE could possibly screw it up worse Dave?

    Please tell me ANY scenario that could possibly be worse than where we are now? (and don’t say Nukloor, knock on wood)

    Despite all the smear and lies surrounding John Kerry at least he SERVED in the military and was a grunt with a rifle, that goes a LONG ways in my book. Please do not even disrespect the military by suggesting that bush served also, I’m not sure if you have served Dave but ask Joe or MCH if they would fell comfortable in a firefight with W covering you? Somehow I would not feel comfortable in that situation.

    I clearly understand both sides of this argument as I suspect most of you do. It is sad that we all feel so powerless that we are resolved to semantically sniping at each other.

    We ALL agree that Regardless of politics, American troops are US and our primary concern.

    We ALL agree that Saddam was a bad man and needed to go, the question is then what?

    We ALL agree that we want America to remain a world leader and a superpower and an example of a country doing the right thing.

    We ALL agree that we want America to be deservant of the respect around the world that we have had for hundreds of years.

    We ALL agree that Killing is wrong and that it becomes a necessary evil sometimes in order to protect ourselves.

    Those are some of the Highlights, see the previous 500 posts for the things we DISAGREE on.

    Effendi!!

  • John911

    Uh-uh, sorry it doesn’t wash. The President does have the ultimate responsibility for faulty intelligence, but you don’t get impeached for that. Read the postings, hello read Cindy Sheehan’s own words. The rhetoric is “he lied,” “illegal war,” and worse. Since they know that WJC couldn’t be kicked out of office even though it was proven he couldn’t tell the truth if his practice of law depended on it, how do they think they can get Bush out with less credible if more inflammatory rhetoric? It doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out: They don’t. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what their agenda is either: The next election. Everyone who honestly believes Cindy Sheehan’s purpose is to meet with the President to get questions answered rather than embarrass him politically please respond to the pharmacy, your medication is ready.

  • billy

    why dont these pro war goons, who now make up just 30% of the country, ship off to iraq if they believe in this so much instead of remaining cowards behind computers attacking their own country? yourt message is finished, put up or shut up. paul hackett had a career and a family. he went to iraq to fight and he is a democrat. what is your excuse you yellow-streaked republican?

  • Wolfman

    My apologies for interjecting into this brilliant discourse. Just a question – how can anyone say that the sanctions against Iraq were not working? Did I miss the Faux News report stating that WMDs have FINALLY been found in Iraq?

  • Wolfman

    That IS what you wrote above, right John911? If the sanctions weren’t working – WHERE are the WMDs? Did Saddam ask you to bury ‘em in your backyard until this whole illegal invasion blew over?

    Unprovoked war may not be illegal, but IMO it goes against the principles this country was founded upon. Monroe Doctrine, anyone?

  • Wolfman

    Really, the idea is laughable. Saddam was such a BAD MAN, he tortured and killed his own people, he was sitting on X number of tons of WMDs, then he……allowed his sovereign nation to be invaded not once, but TWICE in the space of fifteen years, without using a single WMD on the invading forces?

    Makes perfect sense to me.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Uh-uh, sorry it doesn’t wash. The President does have the ultimate responsibility for faulty intelligence, but you don’t get impeached for that.

    Impeachment? Who’s suggesting impeachment?
    We’re in this war – Bush got us into it carelessly. Let’s get this dubiously-started and currently disastrous war with unrealistic goals on a successful footing with a plan for measurable success an endgame in reasonable sight. If he cannot do that, then call the whole thing off.

    Cindy is brave and bold, and I will repeat that opinion, because she employs the rhetoric in turntable fashion, handing the President’s insulting slogans back to him on a silver platter and asking for seconds…this time spiced with a helping heaping of truth – clarity – and honesty.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    RE: COMMENT 503:

    Effendi for Congress!

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Aaaand what have we learned here?

    That delusions continue from those who want to be deluded, except one person can twist it all into lies and end up arguing both sides? Again.

    That the end “justifies” the means and I very much loathe and have no time for any sociopath who thinks that way? Well, you just learned that.

    Timber-me-shivers, I continue to seak treasure and come up with Fool’s gold.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Temple- for someone who actually writes for a living you can come up with some pretty abstruse shit.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    I think you might have meant abstract. Maybe obtuse. Can’t tell as your comment was ambiguously incomprehensible.

    Either way, what are you objecting, too, sir?

    I write for a living I don’t comment on blogs for a living. That job is taken by another here. And he’s worse at it than I am.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    No, I meant abstruse, you can look it up. And I wasn’t objecting, just offering a critique. There’s an idea for a new website: CommentCritics!

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Ah, good word. Sounds like the other two I mentioned combined. Something mathematicians would do, as Merriam-Webster tells me that’s where its from.

    Thanks for the new word. Critique away.

  • kg

    Cindy is just TELLING THE TRUTH. Why are people shooting and driving over the graves of soldiers? Is it because the truth about 9/11, Bush’s paedophile days, Cheney’s paedophile days and decades of drug dealing are hard to accept? Just read some books by people who knew these idiots and you would impeach them. For instance, Cathy O’Brien’s “Trance-Formation of America”, (1992) and her latest, “ACCESS DENIED for Reasons of National Security”. The GOP is scared and running away. That’s what is happening…1,000 protest marches in the US, and where are the honest reporters to cover this? Is Michael Jackson and a bunch of overpaid actors more important?
    Speaking as a former serviceman, I have noticed that most of the military hates Bush and he is afraid to talk to them except in some very staged events. He is a pervert and a foolm and many on his staff are the same…perverts and fools, and they are ruining America, fooling Christians and laughing all the way to the bank.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Really, the idea is laughable. Saddam was such a BAD MAN, he tortured and killed his own people, he was sitting on X number of tons of WMDs, then he……allowed his sovereign nation to be invaded not once, but TWICE in the space of fifteen years, without using a single WMD on the invading forces? < <

    Tell that to the soldiers exposed to chemical agents in the first war in Iraq, bucko. They'll be glad to hear there were no WMD-filled shells bursting near them. So will the guys exposed to Saran gas from a roadside bomb last year.

    >>Impeachment? Who’s suggesting impeachment? < <

    The groups which are feeding Cindy Sheehan her slogans are all talking about it.

    >>Cindy is brave and bold, and I will repeat that opinion, because she employs the rhetoric in turntable fashion, handing the President’s insulting slogans back to him on a silver platter and asking for seconds…this time spiced with a helping heaping of truth – clarity – and honesty.<<

    Cindy has great propagandists feeding her their canned rhetoric. Until now they’ve been unable to find a real market for their hate and distortion, but they’ve been practicing on their disinformation websites. Now she lends them legitimacy, and when she parrots their slogans they finally get to reach a larger audience.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    unlike the GOP hate speech propagandists who have a ton of outlets for their vitriol..

    you know..AM radio and Fox news

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Offendi:

    >>O man, are WE the stupid ones now Dave?
    Of COURSE Rove Thought that a flight suit a photo op and a sign WOULD help stupefy the American people and help make them vote for the wrong guy AND IT WORKED. That is WHY he did it. It was not just a series of “events” it was calculated misinformation swallowed hook, line and sinker.< <

    But it's the same kind of photo op everyone does in every election, no more convincing, no more capable of overriding other facts than any other photo op. It was immediately made the butt of jokes and attacks by the opposition, who probably got more mileage out of it than Bush did. This argument just doesn't stand up.

    >>Let me tell you my lack/loss of faith in the American people Dave, that so many of them can be so easily swayed by superficial false make-up such as that.< <

    I think you're sadly deluded if you think that one questionable photo up could sway enough people to alter the outcome of the election.

    >> The worst part is folks such as yourself coming around years later suggesting how ridiculous such an idea is. We were THERE Dave, we REMEMBER the underhanded lies pulled by Rove and associates in order to win a re-election. Many of us were not “fooled” at the time and your current attempt at revisionism is embarrassing at best.< <

    I was there too, and I was actually paying attention and am quite capable of telling lies from truth. Both candidates engaged in a pretty typical amount of misrepresentation and smearage, and both were fairly unattractive by the end of of it all.

    >>I disagree Dave, without a “created war” bush had NOTHING, a steadily worsening economy, ever increasing oil prices.< <

    Wrong. Oil prices had been going down before the election, and Bush had an economic plan which people believed would work because it made sense - and guess what, it DID work.

    >> On and On. There has been no talk about the 50 million Americans without health care,< <

    Wow, the number gets bigger every time it gets restated. The actual number is around 35 million, btw.

    >> No REAL improvement in jobs for Americans. The 190,000 jobs created were minimum wage service jobs, not jobs able to help some Americans actually put sufficient food on the table.< <

    At the time of the election unemployment was not at what anyone would call a high level, and it sank even more after the election was over. What you're talking about is a manufactured, propaganda crisis, where folks on the left say unemployment is out of control and gas prices are high and everyone's suffering - with no actual factual support. And then reference their own opinion pieces or meaningless anecdotes as supposed 'proof' of how bad things are. Which works great up to the point (right about now) where it becomes blazingly obvious that they were just lying.

    >> Without the war Dave, the administration would have been FORCED to deal with issues that they were not prepared to deal with in regards to the American people, since the war there has been no discussion of any REAL issues.< <

    LOL, the issues where Bush would have just blown Kerry away because he offered actual plans and ideas, most of which he's been unable to implement because of the war. Even a year ago the war was already an albatross for Bush. Kerry may have missed the boat by not attacking him on it more strongly, but Bush didn't benefit from it significantly.

    >> On top of that, the entire re-election was based on those words “I’m A WAR TIME President”. You say that bush got re-elected in spite of the war not because of it?..I call Bullshit!!< <

    Find me a quote where Bush ever said those words.

    >>Please tell me HOW ANYONE could possibly screw it up worse Dave?< <

    They could have invaded Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia too, which may still be necessary. They could have pointlessly bombed instead of invading, resulting in more terror attacks on US Soil. They could have pulled out before the country had at least some form of stable government.

    >>Please tell me ANY scenario that could possibly be worse than where we are now? (and don’t say Nukloor, knock on wood) < <

    If you can't imagine worse scenarios you aren't trying. I'm working on an article on the worse scenarios. And the scary part is that not only were there worse things that we could have done, there are far worse things we may HAVE to do in the near future, and if this anti-war movement causes us to lack the strength to do them then we're going to be truly and royally screwed.

    >>Despite all the smear and lies surrounding John Kerry at least he SERVED in the military and was a grunt with a rifle,< <

    Actually, he was in the Navy and an officer, so he can't be considered a 'grunt'.

    >> that goes a LONG ways in my book. Please do not even disrespect the military by suggesting that bush served also, I’m not sure if you have served Dave but ask Joe or MCH if they would fell comfortable in a firefight with W covering you? Somehow I would not feel comfortable in that situation. < <

    MCH is a retarded troll who doesn't understand the nature of contemporary society or the basic civil rights our nation was founded on. Why on earth would I look for the same qualities in a president that I would look for in a soldier? Makes no sense at all.

    >>We ALL agree that Regardless of politics, American troops are US and our primary concern.< <

    Actually, I don't agree with this at all. IMO stopping the expansion of Islamic Fundamentalism and the threat of international terrorist jihad is the primary concern.

    >>We ALL agree that Saddam was a bad man and needed to go, the question is then what?< <

    I'd love to hear your alternative? Ongoing civil war? Iran taking over Iraq?

    >>We ALL agree that we want America to remain a world leader and a superpower and an example of a country doing the right thing.<<

    That I can agree with, but I submit you wouldn’t know the ‘right thing’ if it bit you on the ass.

    You’re desperately, horribly naive, btw.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    cross posted to IDDYBUD

    I think its become painfully clear that Bush won’t & can’t meet with Cindy Sheehan for one reason – he has NOTHING to say to her. NOTHING.

    What do you say when someone won’t buy all your rhetoric & sound bytes and B.S.? If you are the narcissist Bush & his sycophants are…. you do only one thing. You RUN.

    Mr. Bush? You could call off the smear campaign. Sheehan has FOUND a noble cause – GETTING US OUT OF IRAQ!

    While running, you engage in a Smear Campaign full of projection and more crap that is worthy of a High School Cheerleading Squad campaign. And you keep running…

    So now Sheehan takes a good look for meaning – and finds it. Casey is gone but it is clear our reasons for going to war were trumped up lies and meglomanical oil greed so Bush, Cheney, et al can sodomize America at the pump for $3./gallon and hefty contracts for Halliburton and the like.

    And Sheehan gets PISSED. Rightly so. The sentient in this country were looking for a clear beacon to get behind. It was Cindy Sheehan.

    We are sick of it. Sick of the B.S. He’s not just a bad President, it’s not just a bad Administration…

    They are thieves, murderers, liars and robber barons. Thank you Cindy Sheehan for being who you are. And giving us hope to get these psychos out of power once and for all.
    *************

    Effendi – you rule. RULE!!

  • kg

    It seems John H, John 911, MSG John and Dave Nalle epitomise the right wing. Not one of them knows why people are againt Bush. Again, READ:

    TRANCE-FORMATION OF AMERICA, 1995
    ACCESS DENIED For Reasons of National Security, 2004
    THE FRANKLIN COVER-UP: CHILD ABUSE & SATANISM IN NEBRASKA, 1992 (written by a REPUBLICAN Senator, John De Camp)
    THE PLOT TO SEIZE THE WHITE HOUSE
    THE EMPEROR WEARS NO CLOTHES
    BEHIND THE NYLON CURTAIN

    Then you would see that this war is a stunt to spend tax money on weapons. And then the 3 Johns and Dave would have to get a life. Do they work for the armaments manufacturers?

    Casey Sheehan died from 2 causes; the greed of the arms industry, and the REFUSAL TO LISTEN ON THE PART OF SO MANY AMERICANS. Other countries do not let their leaders start wars all over like this, Switzerland has been neutral for 800 years…and they are VERY PROSPEROUS.

    AMERICA COULD BE PROSPEROUS, but right now there are lots of ignorant people who are just too entertained by the war…it is easier to watch and cheer with a stupid, self-righteous crowd than to listen to the facts. You are killing your own sons this way, and at some point it has to stop…but perhaps not till after America is turned into a 3rd world military dictatorship. Cindy Sheehan and her crowd are one of the best things going for the country. Get behind the peace movement and the made-in-the USA energy movement (hemp, solar, et al.) and you can still avoid this stupid mess and more deaths of young soldiers…not that that many of you care, most of these soldiers are poor. That is REALLY A LARGE PART OF THE EQUATION. THERE ARE NO RICH KIDS GETTING KILLED. NO SKULL & BONERS…They will be glad to cheer as YOU get shot, glad to take the money and run while they pay off the press and keep the crowd entertained with idiots…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I think its become painfully clear that Bush won’t & can’t meet with Cindy Sheehan for one reason – he has NOTHING to say to her. NOTHING.<<

    Quite true. There is nothing left to say to her, and she wouldn’t listen in anycase. He already said his piece and it didn’t fit her agenda, so now she’s teamed up with the hatemongers in this crusade.

    BTW, the rest of your comment was just insane ranting.

    Dave

  • NEWSFLASH

    NEWSFLASH:

    George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and all 100 US Senators have just signed into bill a law which would make it mandatory for any offspring of US politicians to serve in the military, and to spend at least 6 months on the front line in the event of a war…

    Soon after the signing of this bill into law, ALL TROOPS were recalled from Iran and Afghanistan. Both countries have quickly recovered from the illegal occupation, restoring the electricity and other crucial services within two days after the pullout. The US has invested in an ethanol energy programme which will in a year’s time reduce US dependency on foreign oil, while giving jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans. Pesticide use has been cut dramatically, and a national health care system has been voted in by leading Republicans.

    Not everyone caught that news item…ABC must have forgot to post it.

    STAY TUNED FOR MORE DETAILS…

  • Nancy

    Don’t we wish!

  • MCH

    More double-speak from DAVE NALLE’S HANDBOOK OF HYPOCRISY;

    “I’d just rather not see namecalling being used as a way to shutdown conversations.”
    – Dave Nalle, 2/28/05

    “MCH is a retarded troll…”
    – Dave Nalle, comment 519 above

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Your little parody post there is hurt to some degree by the fact that they did in fact just vote in a bunch of money for ethanol and biodiesel.

    BTW, this thread is now too damned long and even on a T1 it’s now taking ages to load. Time to start exploring new topics.

    Dave

  • MCH

    “I’m not sure if you have served Dave…”
    – Effendi

    No, Effendi, Nalle has never served, in spite of having the perfect opportunity (and being of military age) during the Gulf War.

  • Nancy

    Dave, I’d like to have someone (hint hint) write an update on what the current status of the DeLay-Abramoff-golf trip/casinos thing is. Just the fact, please. Thanks.

  • MCH

    “BTW, this thread is too damned long, and even on T1 it’s now taking ages to load. Time to start exploring new topics.”
    – Dave Nalle

    This is the first time in over 14 months of commenting on Blog Critics that I’ve seen an editor try to put the kibosh to a thread. I find that a very bizarre statement, Nalle.

    Jude’s 528 comments pales by comparison to “The Top 100 Guitarists According to Rolling Stone” (currently in the Hot Topics sidebar) post’s 1,865 commments?

    Very peculiar…

  • david jon

    It now looks like Cindy Sheehan is an anti-Semite; she, like Hitler, claims to be a Catholic. It is starting again.

    Little bits on sebsites about the jews, blaming us for this war…blaming Mossad for 9/11 and the anthrax, and even here in the UK there is some guy who got his ankle scraped in 7/7 and is now saying there were no Arabs with rucksacks…we all saw them.

    While most people are getting into gear here and trying to protect the West against Iran etc., some people are leading a fifth column. Isn’t it time we protected ourselves from irresponsible thought?

    ARREST ALL ANTI-WAR PROTESTORS AND CONSPIRACY THEORISTS. ISRAEL DID NOT PLAN 9/11. ISRAEL IS YOUR FRIEND IN TIME OF NEED. SUPPORT ISRAEL AND YOU WILL BE BLESSED. CURSE HER AND YOU WILL BE CURSED.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I was referring to my own participation, MCH, not to killing the thread. The rest of you can carry on repeating the same arguments back and forth until there are a zillion comments on the thread, about 10 of which are worth reading. BTW, there are threads on BC which have been closed to comments in the past – I’m not sure under what circumstances.

    Interestingly, the T1 I was on when I made that comment was slow loading the thread, but my wireless at home seems to be handling the length just fine.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>No, Effendi, Nalle has never served, in spite of having the perfect opportunity (and being of military age) during the Gulf War.<<

    Let’s not be disingenuous yet again, MCH. I was 33 during the first gulf war with a family and a job, and no interestin a military career. I guess I could have volunteered, gotten trained, served 3 years after the war was over doing nothing, and then resigned my commission, but that seems uniquely pointless – even more now than it did at the time.

    Meaninglessly joining the military to do nothing and serve only by taking up space is rather like what George Bush did – not a good example to follow.

    Dave

  • Effendi

    >>Offendi:< <

    Gees.. Dave, I expect that from others not you. Does my opinion upset you to the degree of further personal attacks. I don't agree with all that you say but I am careful to continue to respect you.

    Is there some right wing conservative handbook out there that states as soon as someone says something you don't like, forget the real issue and go fourth grade with it?

    Let me respond to your statements.

    >>But it’s the same kind of photo op everyone does in every election,< <

    agreed

    >>no more convincing, no more capable of overriding other facts than any other photo op.< <

    Disagreed, if it were not SO Effective..why do it?

    >>I think you’re sadly deluded if you think that one questionable photo up could sway enough people to alter the outcome of the election.< <

    Well maybe not as much as the Diebold people but Turdblossom is not in the habit of leaving stones unturned or loosing in general.

    >>I was there too, and I was actually paying attention and am quite capable of telling lies from truth.< <

    You know I hear alot of people make that claim, yet the "opinion polls" form both sides change so dramatically over such silly things that I wonder if you are not just representative of the masses..who are so sure they have a god given gift of a bullshit detector built in yet fall for the same lies time after time.

    >>Both candidates engaged in a pretty typical amount of misrepresentation and smearage, and both were fairly unattractive by the end of of it all.< <

    We do agree on that point although the Swift Boaters were just down and dirty liars and Kerry was not NEAR the "bad guy" he was painted as, but such is the Nature of the American political process.

    >>and Bush had an economic plan which people believed would work because it made sense – and guess what, it DID work.< <

    You call an illegal war and Economic plan?..lol Yea maybe it is in a way, and yea maybe it did work for Haliburton and the "Have's" but it didn't do the American's I KNOW any good.

    >>Wow, the number gets bigger every time it gets restated. The actual number is around 35 million, btw.< <

    I stand corrected but I think the point is with Million dollar bombs dropped like hotcakes that number should have been zero a long time ago.

    >>At the time of the election unemployment was not at what anyone would call a high level, and it sank even more after the election was over. What you’re talking about is a manufactured, propaganda crisis, where folks on the left say unemployment is out of control and gas prices are high and everyone’s suffering – with no actual factual support. And then reference their own opinion pieces or meaningless anecdotes as supposed ‘proof’ of how bad things are. Which works great up to the point (right about now) where it becomes blazingly obvious that they were just lying.< <

    Do you live in the same America that I do?

    You know, the one with New York on the east coast and San Francisco on the west coast.

    I'm sorry Dave but I trust my eyes and my ears and my friends experiences before I trust any skewed opinion polls. Beyond that, gas went from $2 a gallon to $3 a gallon inbetween oil changes!! Your suggestion that everything is OK and that the "Liberal Left is Lying" fly in the face of the price at the pump.

    >> On top of that, the entire re-election was based on those words “I’m A WAR TIME President”. You say that bush got re-elected in spite of the war not because of it?..I call Bullshit!!< <

    >>Find me a quote where Bush ever said those words.< <

    Hahahahha, give me a break Dave, I don't make shit up, I'm not even going to spend one second looking for something I PERSOANLLY HEAR HIM SAY!!

    >>Actually, he was in the Navy and an officer, so he can’t be considered a ‘grunt’.< <

    Only someone with ZERO military experience would make such a statement, I don't care what his branch or rank was, he carried a rifle into combat and got SHOT.....PERIOD!!

    >>MCH is a retarded troll who doesn’t understand the nature of contemporary society or the basic civil rights our nation was founded on.< <

    That is not my experience from our conversations. granted I have never met him but the words he has written ring true to me therefore I have much less effort trying to respect him then say someone with no experience calling him a retarded troll. Easy Dave, you are making it more difficult to converse with you and respect your opinion when you make such comments.

    >>Why on earth would I look for the same qualities in a president that I would look for in a soldier? Makes no sense at all.< <

    Spoken like a true civilian who has never seen death or experienced compassion as necessary. The reason that it is important that a president be an experienced man is that he would think twice about committing others to the hell he has personally experienced. ALSO, an experienced soldier would NOT send his troops in without an exit plan, or the proper armor or the proper numbers...I can go on and on why it is VITAL that the man making the decisions have some experience in the decision he is making.

    >>Actually, I don’t agree with this at all. IMO stopping the expansion of Islamic Fundamentalism and the threat of international terrorist jihad is the primary concern.< <

    That is where you and your lack of experience fails to make the grade. Stopping the the expansion of Islamic Fundamentalism and the threat of international terrorist jihad starts with American Foreign policy. Nothing in this world is FREE, everything has it's price. We as Americans can not display an Imperialistic attitude around the world then gaze in wide wonder when it bites us in the butt.

    You claim to be so knowledgeable about world affairs Dave yet you fail to accept the root problem as to why such extremism finds it's place in the world.

    I would love to give you the long version of my opinion on Saddam but the short version is this, We are now finding out what Saddam knew all along.

    Saddam was doing EXACTLY what we are doing now, killing Insurgents. Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that Saddam was killing the good guys and now we are killing the bad guys....lol. They are ALL THE SAME!!

    >>That I can agree with, but I submit you wouldn’t know the ‘right thing’ if it bit you on the ass.< <

    Thank You Dave for your continued insistence on juvenile attacks.

    I never claimed to be MR Know-it-all, and maybe I wouldn't know the right thing if it did bite me in the ass, but I tell you this much, I try to live my life right and I try to do the right thing everyday. I don't support anyone because someone tells me too, I support those who I find to be true and honest to themselves and others. people who I observe lying and manipulating facts get a closer more critical look in the future and those who prove in their words and actions that they have the best interest of my fellow Americans at heart get a more honest ear from me.

    >>You’re desperately, horribly naive, btw.<<

    Yea maybe, but I sleep well at night and I feel good about myself.

    I really dislike being grouped with any side, but it just seems like one side is trying to be honest and true to themselves and the other side is always trying to get something over on everyone else.

    Have a great day Dave!!

    Scott!!

  • Effendi

    >>ARREST ALL ANTI-WAR PROTESTORS AND CONSPIRACY THEORISTS.< <

    You must be British right?

    Because in America we are proud of our different opinions and especially the right to voice them.

    Of course if you understood that you might have more tea rather than trying to scoop it out of Boston Harbor.

    >>ISRAEL DID NOT PLAN 9/11.< <

    I keep hearing you say that, I have no reason to believe they did but I keep hearing you say that...

    >>ISRAEL IS YOUR FRIEND IN TIME OF NEED.< <

    Yea Tell that to the US Servicemen aboard the USS Liberty.

    If I remember correctly all of the architects of this war are dual citizen American/Israeli. Is the best interest of Israel always the best interest of the United States?

    You claim that Israel is our only friend in the middle east yet before Israel we had no enemies.

    Am I Anti-Semite for asking these questions?

    I am an American FIRSTER!!

    >>SUPPORT ISRAEL AND YOU WILL BE BLESSED. CURSE HER AND YOU WILL BE CURSED.<<

    But what id Israel makes choices clearly against what I understand Jesus to have taught?

    I don’t recall Jesus pushing war at any time.

    I don’t remember any place in the New Testament where God gave dominion of the world to the Jews.

    Why are the only traitors and spies under arrest in America today Israeli’s

    My gut tells me that Israel does not speak for God anymore.

    regardless, I am not going to do the wrong thing just because you browbeat me with biblical verses taken out of context.

    If you do not have the best interest of the United States in mind at ALL times, you are not my friend or my Alli. Friends and allies don’t betray friends and Allie’s.

    By Deception thou shalt do war…right?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Gees.. Dave, I expect that from others not you. Does my opinion upset you to the degree of further personal attacks. I don’t agree with all that you say but I am careful to continue to respect you.< <

    Frankly, your responses on some of these topics - especially those below - insult my intelligence. No one with half an ounce of sense can possibly believe some of the drivel you seem to subscribe to. But I admit my nickname was weak. I'll work on a better one.

    >>Is there some right wing conservative handbook out there that states as soon as someone says something you don’t like, forget the real issue and go fourth grade with it?< <

    Not being a 'conservative' in any sense you mean I wouldn't know. Based on some of the leftists around here it seems to be their dominant tactic, however.

    >>Well maybe not as much as the Diebold people but Turdblossom is not in the habit of leaving stones unturned or loosing in general.< <

    So it's ok for you to put offensive names on our president, but if I make a mild jibe at your assumed internet name that's offensive? Come again?

    BTW, mentioning Diebold is a perfect example of your delusional state. The Diebold myth has been so thoroughly debunked that at this point believing it becomes a willful act of reality avoidance.

    >>I wonder if you are not just representative of the masses..who are so sure they have a god given gift of a bullshit detector built in yet fall for the same lies time after time.< <

    Read more of what I've written and you'll find that I don't miss the bullshit, I just accept it and realize how trivial it is compared to the important issues - unlike those who take the pointless bullshit and try to turn it into major points of debate.

    >>You call an illegal war and Economic plan?..lol Yea maybe it is in a way, and yea maybe it did work for Haliburton and the “Have’s” but it didn’t do the American’s I KNOW any good.< <

    Then you don't know most of America. And it's not the war, but the tax cut which have spurred economic recovery and growth. Take a cruise by the stats at the BLS and BEA sometime.

    >>I stand corrected but I think the point is with Million dollar bombs dropped like hotcakes that number should have been zero a long time ago.< <

    That number is made up of the people who are too well off to qualify for medicaid and unwilling or who believe they cannot afford to purchase health insurance. The vast majority of them are young and choose not to have health insurance, gambling that they don't need it and choosing to have things like cable or a better car instead. It's usually a good bet - it's one I made until I was in my 30s and had a family. That said I have put forward several times my proposal for dealing with this healthcare gap. So far only in comments - eventually I'll write it up as an article, but because of the Iraq war it's fallen so far onto the back burner for Congress and the administration that I'll just be whistling in the wind.

    >>Do you live in the same America that I do?

    You know, the one with New York on the east coast and San Francisco on the west coast.< <

    Maybe not. I live in an America that's in a strong economic recovery, while you apparently live in some fantasy alternative America.

    >>I’m sorry Dave but I trust my eyes and my ears and my friends experiences before I trust any skewed opinion polls. Beyond that, gas went from $2 a gallon to $3 a gallon inbetween oil changes!! < <

    That's a recent development. It didn't happen during the last election campaign, which is what we were talking about.

    Plus the nationwide average as of Tuesday was $2.50 a gallon, including all grades of gas, which means unleaded is nowhere near $3 anywhere but maybe in downtown New York or LA.

    >>That is not my experience from our conversations. granted I have never met him but the words he has written ring true to me therefore I have much less effort trying to respect him then say someone with no experience calling him a retarded troll. Easy Dave, you are making it more difficult to converse with you and respect your opinion when you make such comments.< <

    In other words, because he agrees with your core leftist philosophy everything he says is right, no matter how divisive or outrageous. Guess we know where you stand - right by the kool-aid fountain.

    >>Why on earth would I look for the same qualities in a president that I would look for in a soldier? Makes no sense at all.< <

    >>Spoken like a true civilian who has never seen death or experienced compassion as necessary. The reason that it is important that a president be an experienced man is that he would think twice about committing others to the hell he has personally experienced.< <

    This is such a specious argument it's almost not worth dignifying with an answer. Every president has to face the possiblity of sending troops into combat whether he has been there himself or not. Do you think that Kennedy or Eisenhower were slow to send troops into combat? Both did so on a large scale. Plus, presidents have advisors who are supposed to be able to help them make these decisions wisely. Do you think Colin Powell has no military experience?

    >>ALSO, an experienced soldier would NOT send his troops in without an exit plan, or the proper armor or the proper numbers…I can go on and on why it is VITAL that the man making the decisions have some experience in the decision he is making.< <

    The knowledge a line-soldier gains in service and the decisions which a commander in chief have to make are only marginally related. Bush and his advisers clearly believed that the value of striking quickly would compensate for the lack of preparation. It's a reasonable position to take, though not guaranteed to be correct, especially if the conflict drags out.

    >>That is where you and your lack of experience fails to make the grade.< <

    LOL, my lack of experience? I grew up in the Middle East and have travelled to more Islamic countries than you can count. And BTW, I've also studied military history and strategy at the undergraduate and graduate level, so I do have some idea how a military operates.

    >>Stopping the the expansion of Islamic Fundamentalism and the threat of international terrorist jihad starts with American Foreign policy. Nothing in this world is FREE, everything has it’s price. We as Americans can not display an Imperialistic attitude around the world then gaze in wide wonder when it bites us in the butt.< <

    So it comes down to the fallacy that we're at fault if we're attacked. That's like blaming the rape victim for enticing the rapist, or the victim of a gay bashing for provoking the attacker by being gay. It amazes me how things which would totally offend leftists if they happened to individuals are just fine when they happen to countries.

    >>You claim to be so knowledgeable about world affairs Dave yet you fail to accept the root problem as to why such extremism finds it’s place in the world.< <

    The root problem is obvious. It's not the US, it's religious extremism, which we face as a threat both domestically and overseas. It's your unwillingness to accept this basic fact - which comes directly from the statements of the extremists - which causes me to brand you as naive.

    >>I don’t support anyone because someone tells me too, I support those who I find to be true and honest to themselves and others. people who I observe lying and manipulating facts get a closer more critical look in the future and those who prove in their words and actions that they have the best interest of my fellow Americans at heart get a more honest ear from me.<<

    Then you are listening to the wrong people and can’t tell truth from fiction, as you have demonstrated clearly from some of the blatant falsities you admit to believing in.

    Dave

  • MCH

    In reading Dave Nalle, one word keeps coming to mind – overbearing.

    the definition…
    “OVERBEARING:
    1. domineering, masterful. 2. overpowering. **repressive, bullying, officious, high and mighty, lordly, haughty, bossy, high fallutin.”

    Am I the only one who feels this way?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I’d rather be overbearing in the defense of freedom and good sense than endlessly spewing the petty lies, personal attacks and distorting insinuations which so many seem to spew here.

    Dave

  • Effendi

    You know it’s ironic that military men such as yourself MCH and myself get browbeaten for coming to the conclusions we have based on the facts we have seen.
    I am no Leftist or Pacifist I am a Realist. I would (and Have) defended this great country of ours as the call comes in. Because of that attitude that I have always have, I feel like I have the right in helping determine what is in our best interest.

    Dave has never defended America and feels the need to call those of us who have all types of names amounting to un-American just because we question the actions of our government.

    If America is under threat, there is no need for discussion we will act as we always have. Unfortunately it has become apparent to anyone with Logic that this action in which Americans are dying daily has Nothing to do with the protection of America.

    You suggestion that we are all Stupid and “fooled” by left wing propaganda is ridiculous.

    I commend Cindy Sheehan and every other American who does what they know in their heart is the right thing and ESPECIALLY the service members among us like MCH who HAVE been there and are still wise enough to recognise a con game when they see one and to stand up and state their piece.

    Dave Nalle, You have lost my respect and your arrogant ignorance is representative of what is wrong with America and in reality is the core problem as to why we are in the mess we are in today.

    Your continued blind stupidity in suggesting that Everything is A-OK and that everything couldn’t be better is disheartening and tragic. Your statement above as to the lack of worth of the American fighting service person as opposed to standing up and looking tough and right to the rest of the world just shows your a young soul in this young soul world.

    Extremists of any kind is not the real threat in the world, the real threat comes from self induced fits of Ego that turn normally sane men into fools and cause the extremists an avenue to spew their hate.

    It is the Nature of certain men to display extremism, there is no difference between Bin Laden or McVeigh, Al Zarqawi or Erik Rudolf. It is not the nature or the name of the religion that drives men to commit evil acts it is the nature of the individual. I would argue that men with the insane egocentric mind set of Nalle are no different then the men they work so hard to hate and make enemies of.
    There are issues that you are right about Nalle and I try hard to credit you with that, unfortunately I have to vote you off the island as a major part of the problem and never a part of any worthwhile solution.

    Scott!!

  • John911

    Who’s talking about impeachemnt? Why Cindy Sheehan, of course:

    April 27, 2005 at San Francisco State University, the Lynne Stewart Rally

    “We want our country back and, if we have to impeach everybody from George Bush down to the person who picks up dog s*** in Washington, we will impeach all those people.” Cindy Sheehan (as reported at http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/Stewartrally.htm)

    This is the same speech where she made the insane accusation: “We are waging a nuclear war in Iraq right now. That country is contaminated. It will be contaminated for practically eternity now.”

    So she thinks Bush should be impeached (now do you know who was talking about it?) and what convicted attorney Lynne Stewart did was the right thing. Helping a radical Muslim cleric, Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman, who was convicted of masterminding the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, communicate with members of Al Qaeda in violation of the law. A lawyer who considers terrorists “liberationists?” Gee, Cindy. What nifty heroes and what stirring words. I must have missed the news flash where we nuked Iraq.

    Like I said, no one has to smear the lady, she can do that well enough on her own.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Dave has never defended America and feels the need to call those of us who have all types of names amounting to un-American just because we question the actions of our government. < <

    I defend America every day in many ways and have for years. I defend what's good about the country and try to preserve and perpetuate it. Defending the country doesn't just come down to carrying a gun in a foreign country, and having done that doesn't give you an exclusive license to have an opinion in our society. And BTW, I've never called anyone un-American for having an opinion - or for that matter ever used the term at all. It's a nonsensical buzzword which is contrary to our nation's values of free speech - as much as trying to shut someone up by calling them a 'chickenhawk' is.

    >>If America is under threat, there is no need for discussion we will act as we always have. Unfortunately it has become apparent to anyone with Logic that this action in which Americans are dying daily has Nothing to do with the protection of America.< <

    Except that logic brings some of us to exactly the opposite conclusion. If that's the case I submit that our starting premises must be different. I start from the premise that extremism in all its forms is undesirable and potentially destructive, and more specifically that the objective of Islamic extremists is nothing short of the destruction of western civilization - not because I have something against them or because this is what President Bush believes, but because this is what they themselves have said and demonstrated over and over and over again.

    >>You suggestion that we are all Stupid and “fooled” by left wing propaganda is ridiculous.< <

    Not everyone, but far too many are. I'm not even sure if that's your problem, in fact.

    >>I commend Cindy Sheehan and every other American who does what they know in their heart is the right thing and ESPECIALLY the service members among us like MCH who HAVE been there and are still wise enough to recognise a con game when they see one and to stand up and state their piece.< <

    If you see a con game, tell me who benefits from it? There has to be a point to it, and right now that's the weak element in your argument. We clearly didn't go to Iraq for oil, or just to advance the president's career - that would have been much easier to do with a successful domestic agenda. So what's the big con? And don't bring up the little issues like WMDs, tell me what the real, secret agenda is.

    >>Dave Nalle, You have lost my respect and your arrogant ignorance is representative of what is wrong with America and in reality is the core problem as to why we are in the mess we are in today.< <

    Thanks. I feel exactly the same way about you. You have all these beliefs, but you don't think about them logically or try to analyze why you believe the things that you do. You're exactly like the fundamentalists or the islamic extremists who have a belief set they hold to so powerfully that no other thoughts can intrude and every attempt to explain anything to them logically has to be attacked rather than considered.

    >>Your continued blind stupidity in suggesting that Everything is A-OK and that everything couldn’t be better is disheartening and tragic.< <

    Everything is far from A-OK. Your persistence in not understanding the most basic elements of the problems our nation faces is a testament to that.

    >> Your statement above as to the lack of worth of the American fighting service person as opposed to standing up and looking tough and right to the rest of the world just shows your a young soul in this young soul world.< <

    What on earth are you talking about? I never said anything about the lack of worth of our service men and women. I just said that their service does not automatically place them in a priveleged position where only they get to have opinions or where they have an exclusive right to discuss certain issues. We're a society of equals. Serving in the military doesn't automatically confer on you more of a right to be heard than anyone else has.

    >>Extremists of any kind is not the real threat in the world, the real threat comes from self induced fits of Ego that turn normally sane men into fools and cause the extremists an avenue to spew their hate.< <

    On this I absolutely agree. But right now you seem to be coming down on the side of the extremists - not all of them, just your chosen brand of extremists. I don't have a group of extremists I support. I disagree with all of them because they ARE extremists. If you aren't siding with the extremists who have made Cindy Sheehan an instrument of their destructive agenda, then enlighten me, because I sure missed it.

    >>It is the Nature of certain men to display extremism, there is no difference between Bin Laden or McVeigh, Al Zarqawi or Erik Rudolf.< <

    Absolutely true, but you left out Noam Chomsky and John Conyers and quite a few others.

    >> It is not the nature or the name of the religion that drives men to commit evil acts it is the nature of the individual. I would argue that men with the insane egocentric mind set of Nalle are no different then the men they work so hard to hate and make enemies of.< <

    So you're saying that my opposition to all extremism makes me an extremist? Come again?

    >>There are issues that you are right about Nalle and I try hard to credit you with that, unfortunately I have to vote you off the island as a major part of the problem and never a part of any worthwhile solution.<<

    So being pragmatic and wanting to find better courses for our nation rather than just spewing rhetoric and hate from a chosen extremist viewpoint now makes me part of the problem?

    Dave

  • John911

    Unlike Scott, I have no illusions that everyone to right of sheer lunancy thinks things are all hunky dory and follow President Bush in lock step, goose stepping down the Fuhrerstrasse of life. When we lose respect for people of opposing views is when they champion someone with serious flaws and hold up as “bold and brave” someone who makes serious and untruthful allegations without saying now wait a minute. Its like my previous Teddy Kennedy analogy. If you claim he’s your dog its hard to ignore the obvious fleas.

  • billy

    john911 acts like calling for bush’s impeachment for killing 2000 troops with a lie is outrageous. meanwhile he backed a real impeachment of a president at a time of war, because he had sex with a woman. your credibility is shot. go home.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    John, you know some of the most hardcore opposition to the war in Iraq comes from those who most would classify as very far right wing. And I doubt that most who support the war have great illusions about Bush’s bravery or at this point even his good sense, but he’s the president we’ve got, he does seem to be well intentioned for the most part, and the situation we face isn’t something that can be put off as it was during the Clinton years.

    Dave

  • John911

    Simply saying its so doesn’t make it so. Bush lied seems to be a common theme among the unwashed, a sort of mantra. Problem is, most Democrats in the Congress don’t believe that one.

    And if you can’t tell the difference between an unfounded allegation and purjury under oath, you are probably a product of the California educational system.

    By the way, WJC was not impeached and disbarred for having sex. Just for not being honest about it when questioned under oath. See, you can rant and rave here all you want, but a slick lawyer like WJC should have known that lying under oath is a no-no. Afterall, they teach that in law school, even at Yale.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>john911 acts like calling for bush’s impeachment for killing 2000 troops with a lie is outrageous. < <

    First off, Bush didn't kill the troops, terrorists and insurgents did. If you can't separate the two concepts you can't discuss this issue intelligently.

    As for the lie, although I'm not convinced, I'll give you WMDs as a straight out lie. What about the other 16 counts in the congressional authorization of military action?

    And when you get right down to it, whether WMDs were there or not is such a total irrelevancy that it's not worth even discussing. The moment it's brought up you KNOW the person mentioning it doesn't know a thing about the issue. The war is being fought for strategic purposes which far transcend the ostensible justifications for going into Iraq. If you can't see that then you're not informed enough to have an opinion for or against that strategic decision.

    >>meanwhile he backed a real impeachment of a president at a time of war, because he had sex with a woman. your credibility is shot. go home.<<

    That’s not why Clinton was impeached, and are you sure John911 backed his impeachment? I know I didn’t. His actions were trivial and not worty of more than a censure.

    Dave

  • billy

    “Simply saying its so doesn’t make it so.”

    oh yeah, where are the wmd smart guy. bush lied. period. it wasnt a mistake. it was purposeful and 70% of the country knows it now.

    You have no context. point to where Clinton was convicted of perjury and ill show you a unicorn on mars.

    whats worse lying and causing 2000 soldiers to die

    or

    lying to save your family

    what a petty, unpatriotic, idiotic statement to think that impeachment was worthy and the diversion caused 9-11, so thank your republican friends for that tragedy.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    I think if I sent my child to be an intern and she was used for sex, I’d consider it an impeachable offence.

  • gonzo marx

    once again, when bankrupt in the face of actual factual arguments, many GOP folks just trot out Slick Willie to bash on

    deny, distort, destroy and distract

    that’s the best they cand do

    don’t fall for it

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>oh yeah, where are the wmd smart guy. bush lied. period. it wasnt a mistake. it was purposeful and 70% of the country knows it now.<<

    Whether true or not – and definitive evidence has never been presented to support your contention – the topic of WMDs is brough up solely to distract from the actual issue of the strategic importance of Iraq, which many on the left don’t want to address because they have no solution to the larger problem of terrorism and Islamic extremism. So every time you see WMDs mentioned in the way that billy did, you know that what he’s really saying is – just hate Bush and don’t think about the real reasons for the war.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude Nagurney Camwell

    Dave,

    If you are an editor here and you are talking about closing comments on this thread, I have to tell you that I would have a real problem with that, as the writer of the column.

    Why? Because you are so heavily involved in the debate yourself.

    I was genuinely saddened to see you say there were only 10 interesting comments here aout of the many. I wondered – did you mean your own comments?

    You mention name calling – and it’ sbeen minimal given the issue. Trouble is, I’ve seen you participate in it.

    This is a conversation people want to be having right now.

    If it loads too slowly for you, I want you to know it loads quickly for me.

    I wouldn’t think it would be fair to close out comments based on some people having slow computers or on someone simply thinking people are commenting too frequently. I would hope that’s not the spirit you wish to forward here at Blogcritics.

    Jude Nagurney Camwell

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    To John 911 –

    Re: Cindy Sheehan mentioning impeachment:

    She’s angry.
    She lost a son over this.

    It doesn’t mean it has a snowball’s chance in hell of happening in this political atmosphere.

    You know it.
    I know it.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>If you are an editor here and you are talking about closing comments on this thread, I have to tell you that I would have a real problem with that, as the writer of the column.

    Why? Because you are so heavily involved in the debate yourself.< <

    Read back. I never said one word about actually closing the comments. I said that I thought the thread was played out and I was probably not going to participate. Read what I write, not what people say I wrote.

    >>I was genuinely saddened to see you say there were only 10 interesting comments here aout of the many. I wondered – did you mean your own comments? < <

    It's called hyperbole. I didn't actually count the good comments. The point is that there are an awful lot of rather predictible knee-jerk comments repeated over and over.

    >>You mention name calling – and it’ sbeen minimal given the issue. Trouble is, I’ve seen you participate in it.< <

    Then you have a broad, broad definition of namecalling.

    >>This is a conversation people want to be having right now.

    If it loads too slowly for you, I want you to know it loads quickly for me. < <

    Depends on the connection. As I said, it loads fine for me at home.

    >>I wouldn’t think it would be fair to close out comments based on some people having slow computers or on someone simply thinking people are commenting too frequently. I would hope that’s not the spirit you wish to forward here at Blogcritics.<<

    Good thing I never said one word about closing out the comments.

    I don’t call names, but if I did this would be the time I’d apply an unflattering one to your reading comprehension skills.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    two things..yes, Mr Nalle..you have used a bit of name calling…not too bad, but on occasion

    second…do you have some linkage for the diebold bit?…i am aware of some work, but as someone who works in electronics, i have some thoughts on the matter, and woudl be interested in learning more

    no accusations or anything about them…just some technical curiosity

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I’m working on an article about the election ‘fraud’ in Ohio, including the Diebold business. Can you wait until I finish to get the links – hate to show my hand too soon.

    As for the ‘name calling’, there may occasionally be things said which make it impossible not to apply the appropriate and accurate name – which may not be received kindly.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Here’s some more for your article, Mr. Nalle:

    One

    Two

    Three

    shalom

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    OMG the horror!!! Do you smell what I smell?

    RUSH ON SHEEHAN’S ABSOLUTE MORAL AUTHORITY

    RUSH GETS A NEW ORIFICE

  • MCH

    Jude;
    Welcome to Dave Nalle’s world of doublespeak, paradox and hypocrisy.

    Here’s what Nalle said in comment #526;
    “BTW, this thread is now too damned long and even on a T1 its taking to ages to load. Time to start exploring new topics.”

    And here’s what he said a few minutes later, in #532;
    “I was referring to my own participation, MCH, not to killing the thread.”

    It’s almost as if Nalle thinks the rest of are too dumb to pick up on his chronic attempts at deception.

    Nalle has created over 130 posts here on BC, with very few of them (if any) receiving over 100 comments. Jude, I can tell you this, Dave Nalle possesses an enormous ego, and it’s just got to be making his skin crawl that your very first attempt out of the chute has amassed over 550 comments (and counting) in less than 10 days.

    Knowing Nalle’s history as a control freak here on BC, and his jealously towards better writers than he, I’m convinced that he was indeed referring to the rest of us when he stated, “Time to start exploring new topics.”

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    I don’t know, I read that stuff, and I didn’t think he was talking about turning off the thread. Why do you insist on trying to personalize every argument against him and RJ?

    Anyway, a poll!

  • MCH

    Joe,
    Don’t forget I also personalize every argument against GW Bush. BTW Joe, have you ever stated your opinion of GW’s desertion from the Guards(?)

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    So you think it’s more important to engage in personal attacks than actually try to discuss some of these things? That just doesn’t seem very productive.

    I don’t have one. Lots of people opted to minimally participate in that war.

  • Wolfman

    “Tell that to the soldiers exposed to chemical agents in the first war in Iraq, bucko. They’ll be glad to hear there were no WMD-filled shells bursting near them. So will the guys exposed to Saran gas from a roadside bomb last year.”

    “Bucko?” Save your pet names for your mother. Thank you for answering a question that was not posed to you.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Today I am sending out prayers to the Sheehan family for the health of Shirley Miller, Casey Sheehan’s maternal grandmother.

  • billy

    the first gulf war was the first guilf war, fairies could have came from the sky in the first gulf war, it doesnt mean they were there a decade later in the SECOND gulf war. are republicans just stupid or do their talking points make them sound that way?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    My friend in blogging, Joe Gandelman, has a good piece today at his site, which is The Moderate Voice.

  • MCH

    Re comment #560;
    No, actually I’m just applying your philosophy, Joe. You know, “If the shoe fits.” Or does that only apply to those who agree with you?

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Absolutely not, it’s just if that’s all you’re bringing to the table and it sort of does seem to be, well…

  • MCH

    “Lots of people opted to minimally participate in that war.”
    – Joe

    True…but “lots of people” didn’t opt to DESERT, however.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Hi, everyone:

    Read this excerpt from Joe Gandelman/Moderate Voice and tell me what you think:

    Vice President Cheney, offered an intriguing argument to maintain support of the war: the war must be fought to honor the troops who died:

    “Every man and woman who fights and sacrifices in this war is serving a just and noble cause. This nation will always be grateful to them and we will honor their sacrifice by completing our mission,” Cheney said during a speech in Springfield, Mo., to the 73rd national convention of the Military Order of the Purple Heart.

    Our view (and TMV has supported the war): if this is the new argument that’ll be used to sell the war, it’s doomed to failure. Officials didn’t argue in the World War I, World War II, Korea or even Vietnam that the wars needed to be fought to victory to honor sacrifices soldiers already made in those wars. Leaders relentlessly hammered away at the larger missions. Sometimes these arguments failed (as in the case of Vietnam). But arguing that because young Americans have died in Iraq already the U.S. needs to stay there and face increased casualties will not — to be blunt — sell. It could actually backfire. (There are much stronger and more convincing arguments proponents of completing the Iraq mission can make).

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    A comment on the Rasmussen poll – the public opinion about the public’s view of Cindy Sheehan –

    What really matters here, people, and I think you all know it by now, is what the American people think about our cause in Iraq.

    Personally, I think Ms. Sheehan, whether you love her or detest her, has ignited a new consciousness about teh Bush policy in Iraq.

    Those are the polls that will matter, politically speaking.

    I’m sure the Bush administration was hoping for 5 weeks of media coverage about Sharks, Jude Law, and Paris Hilton.

    Instead, they got the Crawford circus.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    See my piece from yesterday at American Street, which relates to a fire that I believe Cindy Sheehan has directly affected:

    WILL FEINGOLD START A FIRE?

    There are many other related article at America Street today, including a bit of humor from Corey Anderson.

  • John911

    Ah, Jude. Focus please. I was responding to your question:

    “Impeachment? Who’s suggesting impeachment?”

    If you can’t be bothered to remember your own comments, please don’t misrepresent mine. I never said WJC was convicted of perjury. I said he was (unsuccessfully) impeached for perjury and was disbarred (by the Arkansas Supreme Court).

    Plus, whole point of my comment was that they knew they couldn’t impeach President Bush and that what the rhetoric was really about was the next election.

    Again, repeating unsupported, unsubstantiated allegations that President Bush lied, while Kerry and the rest were just misinformed when they made similar statments from the same faulty intelligence doesn’t make it so.

    No matter how many times you say it, that doesn’t make it true.

    Otherwise I’d be three inches taller, forty pounds lighter and have a full head of hair.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Hey John 911, your wounded hyperbole is amusing, but I never (and I mean never) said anything about Bill Clinton or perjury. Never.

    Are you certain you’re not intending this to go to another comment-maker?

    whole point of my comment was that they knew they couldn’t impeach President Bush and that what the rhetoric was really about was the next election.

    If we’re talking politics, that’s a
    no-brainer. I have watched the Bush administration use 9/11 and Iraq as fodder for their election campaigns. It’s always about “the next election” when it comes to politics.

    repeating unsupported, unsubstantiated allegations that President Bush lied

    Either you don’t read my posts or you’re ignoring them purposely.
    Ref: Comment 500.
    For the third time, I didn’t say the President wittingly lied.

    I said our nation was lied into war – by his administration.

    He may have taken lies and connivings from his underlings as bad advice.

    The buck still stops with the Commander in Chief.

  • Effendi

    Thank You Barbara for that open letter to Rush.

    That is Golden!!

  • David

    John 911 is RIGHT ON! And so is MSG John and John H…this looks like Good News.
    Effendi, [edited] why are you attacking the truth here on a public forum? Why are you slandering Israel and betraying America with your mouth? America had no enemies before Israel? Like there was no war…imagine all you want, but you are no John Lennon. And some people are glad he is not around. Lots of folk like him in the UK, too many, and if he wasn’t an anti-Semite I don’t know who is…Looks like they knew how to take care of him in the US. Looks like they know how to take care of a lot of Brits in the US…I hear 5 got handcuffed in NY during a terror alert…and they want an apology? They’re lucky they’re not sent to Guantanamo Bay, DO NOT PASS GO…soon lots of Brits are going to find about the long arm of the LAW! And they are going to respect it. We have not forgotten that kid who breached security by hacking into the Pentagon websites…yeah, thinks he’s playing a game with the US? His court date is comgin up, October 18…let’s see how he looks in an orange jump suit. Got lots of those for Brits who wanna shoot their mouths off. Maybe he could share a cell with you Effendi, or with CINDY SHEEHAN?

    A unisex prison…dogleashes all around!!!!!!!!!!

  • gonzo marx

    calling Dr. Bombay, calling Dr. Bombay…come right away…

    it seems that David in #574 is off his meds again…250 ml of thorazine…STAT

    Excelsior!

  • David

    Gonzo,

    I’m not off anything. It’s easy to see what is going on, and it’s time to SPEAK OUT. You and a bunch of Iranian terrorists, [edited], are out there trying to deflect attention from world events so the US does not go after Iran. You are all being watched, including Jimmy Walter and his sidekick over here in the UK. If you support an ANTI-SEMITE like Cindy Sheehan, it’s because you are working for some force that is un-American.

    BY THE WAY, as I predicted prophetically yesterday on another website, Cindy had to go…got too hot for her. All of you are gonna die too, and lots and lots of people over here as well.

    Remember, those how curse Israel are cursed. And people who spread conspiracy theories are going to pay for every word they say against Israel. There is an eye in the sky, and it knows your moves. Don’t try to run.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    David, you’re not making threats, are you? Mind the commenting policy, please.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    MCH- I’d really like to cover some new ground here, so unless you’ve got something of substance…

    Jude, you needn’t spin, you’re among friends here. But I gotta tell you, if your approval numbers are below Bush’s and less than 50% of those polled are following the story closely, you may want to consider adjusting your level of investiture. She’s moved the people that were already predisposed one way and hasn’t really broken any new territory.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>BY THE WAY, as I predicted prophetically yesterday on another website, Cindy had to go…got too hot for her. All of you are gonna die too, and lots and lots of people over here as well. <<

    Dave, that’s the nastiest thing I think I have heard in a while. Are you channeling Karl Rove or did you suffer an anuerysm?

    There are still 100s of people in Crawford. Cindy CARES ABOUT HER FAMILY and has gone to be with her mother!! The right wing neocons are all doing the circle-**** now and that’s just sick.

    Like this whole war – friggin’ SICK.

    UGH…. I am sorry that comment was disgusting!

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Yet ANOTHER poll on Cindy Sheehan

    Poorly crafted question, tho. Could fall on either side of the aisle for good or ill.

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Bush found time for Terry Schiavo

    “This alone gives us a telling glimpse of Bush, who apparently believes he owes no explanation to a mother whose son was lost to a war that it has now been shown did not need to happen. On the other hand, appeasing the Religious Right and making sure they know his priorities are with them is obviously important enough for the president to move mountains.”

    And Bob Herbert of THE NEW YORK TIMES weighs in on the issue.

    btw, Jude – that item on Cheney’s reason for ‘finishing the war’ was a beaut. SOOOOO now did he say exactly HOW do we “Finish”???? hmmmm?????

    shabbat shalom

  • gonzo marx

    David…we are sending over a new tin foil hat so the spy sat’s can’t scan your thoughts anymore…

    co-operate with the nice men in the white suits, they have a new dinner jacket for you, it ties up in the back

    AND you will be getting your own private “suite” that comes with upholstered wallpaper

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • Effendi

    >>Effendi, [edited] why are you attacking the truth here on a public forum? Why are you slandering Israel< <

    Ah an Israeli firster huh?
    It's funny how you are so quick to jump up and defend something whether it needs defending or not.

    Israel is NO FRIEND of the United States. And if you are such a "great friend" David why are you spying on US and why are you so quick to see Americans die for Israel? And what is up with all the false flag operations ...friend..

    >>and betraying America with your mouth?< <

    I'm not the one pushing for war, YOU are, I'm not the one OK with seeing dead Americans fighting Israel's wars YOU ARE. So WHO is the traitor to the American people.

    I'm an American firster remember.
    I have no problem helping "friends" out around the world..AFTER we help America!!

    >>America had no enemies before Israel Like there was no war< <

    Before the American support of Israel starting after WWII we had no enemies in the middle east, 57 years and 90 BILLION dollars later we are hated by everyone who used to just have a problem with you.

    Why can't you fight your own damn battles why you have to drag America into your 2,000 year old war huh?

    I don't have a problem with my Jewish friends and Neighbors but here's the Kicker, I don't have a problem with my Arab friends or neighbors either so I refuse to pay you to kill them in the same way as I refuse to support them in killing you.

    AMERICA FIRST REMEMBER!!

    >>imagine all you want, but you are no John Lennon. And some people are glad he is not around.< <

    Where did THAT ripe tidbit emerge from? I am no pacifist believe me, I am an AMERICAN FIRSTER REMEMBER. If you attack America prepare to sacrifice your life.

    ALL Enemies foreign and Domestic..that means SPIES stealing American technology and passing it on to our Enemies the Chinese....of course Israel would never betray America...right?

    >>and if he wasn’t an anti-Semite I don’t know who is< <

    That argument and that word is so dead and weak, ALL Palestinians are Semitic also, So stop crying wolf. I have plenty of AMERICAN Jewish friends who are loyal to America, are they Anti-Semitic also just because they do not support the zionist Agenda?

    I could care less how you try to paint me, here is the bottom line, Either you are AMERICAN FIRSTER or a Someone else FIRSTER. No Man may serve two masters!!

    >> Looks like they know how to take care of a lot of Brits in the US…I hear 5 got handcuffed in NY during a terror alert…and they want an apology?< <

    I'm sure there was a reason to handcuff them, the GOOD thing is that they have arrested and Indicted the Zionist AIPAC traitors here in America. They should be tried and shot like any other traitor to America. I Don't CARE what Country you are from if you spy and betray MY COUNTRY...You are the enemy. No name calling (anti-Semitic) or buck passing (We're Alli's) changes the fact that you work AGAINST the United States!!

    >>Maybe he could share a cell with you Effendi, or with CINDY SHEEHAN? < <

    I would PROUDLY SHARE A CELL WITH CINDY SHEEHAN!!

    She represents MY MOTHER and the Mothers of the men in my command.

    I am PROUD to make America First in my thoughts and actions.

    I have been around way too long to be intimidated by name calling and arm chair warriors with keyboards.

    A>> unisex prison…dogleashes all around!!!!!!!!!!<<

    You are NOT EVEN FUNNY Sir…
    That is NOT representative of MY AMERICA. That is NOT what the Military I am proud of stands for or is represented by.

    There are those who perpetrated that CRIME and are being ferreted out for it. I appreciate you curb your slanderous tongue when speaking of my People and the dangerous life threatening task they face.

    My Country has given you EVERYTHING and you turn around and smack us in the face. You sir had better count your American blessings before you are returned to wherever it is you came from!!

    Scott!!

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “Israel is NO FRIEND of the United States. And if you are such a “great friend” David why are you spying on US ”

    Ummm… We spy on them too.

    “Before the American support of Israel starting after WWII ”

    Actually it mostly started after 1956, though there was some support prior; we actually sided mostly with Egypt in that conflict.

    “I would PROUDLY SHARE A CELL WITH CINDY SHEEHAN!!

    She represents MY MOTHER and the Mothers of the men in my command.”

    I would relunctantly share a cell with her and most of the folks in my command don’t like her.

    “There are those who perpetrated that CRIME and are being ferreted out for it.”

    Correct.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    The people of Israel are in my prayers this week – as always.

    Last Sunday, on Tisha b’Av, I was invited to see a group Isreali scouts performing. I wish you all could have been there to see those children – they were filled with God’s peace and hope.

    It was the eve of the disengagement of settlements in Gaza – and we solemnly prayed that no one would be hurt.

    This week the Israeli soldiers showed the rest of the world how all police and soldiers should treat those who choose civil disobedience as a way to protest.

    In New York City, those same protestors would probably have been gassed or shot with rubber bullets or manhandled. I dare to say that I think that some may have been harmed in worse ways.

    We all have a lot to learn from the people of Israel.

    People like “David” – who try to come here and rant on and on that someone’s an ‘anti-Semite’ if they have a problem with Likudniks interfering with OUR nation’s security interests and directly affecting the White House WAR policy – are either hyperbolic partisans and/or defenders of something unAmerican themselves. I truly believe that.

    shabbat shalom.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “In New York City, those same protestors would probably have been gassed or shot with rubber bullets or manhandled. ”

    Only if the protestors got violent. If they were staging a sit in as most of the Israeli protestors were, they would have probably been treated the same.

    Israel has a long history of gassing and firing rubber bullets at protestors.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    I am PROUD to make America First in my thoughts and actions.
    I have been around way too long to be intimidated by name calling and arm chair warriors with keyboards.

    I feel the same way, Scott.
    ONE AMERICA!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Only if the protestors got violent. If they were staging a sit in as most of the Israeli protestors were, they would have probably been treated the same.

    It was more than a sit-in.
    Acid was being thrown on soldiers by protestors.
    Is it an act of violence to throw acid on someone?
    Is it a sit-in when you burn vehicles to block soldiers from entering?

    Don’t undercut what Israel has accomplished here. This was a great test – and Israel’s soldiers have passed it beautifully so far.

    Throw acid at a NYC cop and you’re a dead man.

    Pull out your wallet in the wrong dark neighborhood in NYC and you might wind up with 40 bullet holes in you.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    I will repeat, with emphasis:

    {If they were staging a sit in as MOST of the Israeli protestors were,}

    “Pull out your wallet in the wrong dark neighborhood”

    The term is “furtive movement”. Make a furtive movement where an Israeli soldier thinks he is about to get shot and he will kill you.

  • Jude

    Correction – It was said to be paint thinner thrown on Israeli troops – not acid.

    Either way, this is surely an act of violence – which was my point.

  • Jude

    Oh yeah, that shifty covert fellow with the WALLET!
    The cops won a lot of hearts and minds with that move.

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “Either way, this is surely an act of violence – which was my point.”

    Either way, you don’t appear to understand the term “most”.

    “Oh yeah, that shifty covert fellow with the WALLET!”

    You have a choice–a guy is not obeying your commands and is acting very suspiciously. You tell him to keep his hands in plain sight and instead he reaches for something. You have a fraction of a second to decide what to do. If it is a gun and you don’t shoot, you or your partner could die. If it isn’t a gun and you do shoot, you might kill an innocent person. You will have to rely on the circumstances and your training to guide you. Your decision time starts no…oops, it past already.

    IOW, let’s not try to second guess if you weren’t there and probably have never been in such a situation.

  • Ballethshooz

    Cindy Sheehan just posted a blog on dailykos like 2 minutes ago if anyone is interested in talking to her or sending her a message.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Maybe she should try posting one to BC where people might give her a bit more of an unbiased assessment of her actions. Posting to Kos is like preaching to the choir – but then I guess she has to support the poeple who pay her bills.

    Dave

  • Balletshooz

    Yes I am sure, sort of like how George Bush has his bills paid by Enron, but if so, Sheehan is in a tent in a ditch, so they aren’t paying very much.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    MSG John –

    I realize you are a soldier – and I wouldn’t doubt you’ve been shot at yourself a time or two – so I hope you don’t think I don’t understand where you’re coming from.

    But if any dark neighborhood in NYC is a war zone, the Gaza strip could have been that “times fifty” this week.

    “Grace under fire” is the eloquent way the Toronto Star editorial staff put it — see this editorial online.

    Getting back to our topic, which is Cindy Sheehan’s newly inspired all-American movement to put the Iraq war (and its many misleadings and mistakes of the Bush administration) in the spotlight, there are so many ways you can try to make someone look like something they are NOT.

    You are NOT an anti-Semite if you believe there are neoconservatives (see PNAC) who have had far too much of a voice and a hand in how we form our foreign policy —- and how neocons have bent and twisted and perverted intelligence at every given opportunity to fit into that policy. You are not an anti-Semite if you believe the President took bad neocon advice in consultation — such as “They’ll greet us with flowers and cheers!” or “Ahmad Chalabi said so!”..and tried to sway the American public with sloganized propaganda.

    No more!

    That’s over.

    Cindy Sheehan made sure the slogan-fest would be over.

    I thank her.
    We owe her so much for the guts to say what she was thinking.

    Just as we owe you for watching our backs in battle to protect our freedom to speak. Don’t ever think we’re not grateful. We owe you, too.

  • TORONTO STAR article

    Trying that TORONTO STAR link again….

    TEXT

    Grace under fire. That’s what Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the women and men of the Israeli army have shown during the wrenching process of emptying Gaza of settlers to better ensure their nation’s security. Sharon’s political courage has never been more evident than in the past few trying days. And the army’s restraint has been exemplary.

    Sharon himself, once hailed as the settlers’ most powerful ally, has been likened to Adolf Hitler, and troops to Nazi death-camp collaborators. Some settlers paraded their weeping children wearing Holocaust-style Stars of David. Others spoke of a Jewish pogrom against Jews. “It’s very complicated, operationally and emotionally,” said Maj.-Gen. Moshe Kaplinski, grimly understating the psychic trauma.

    Sadly, the process of winding down four decades of Israeli occupation has not been without bloodshed. In the West Bank, a settler killed four Palestinians. A woman protestor set herself on fire. Yesterday, fierce clashes between the security forces and a relatively small number of extremists left scores injured, and raised fears of worse to come.

    But removing 8,500 settlers and 5,000 supporters from an area many felt God had given them was not going to be easy. That so many have been moved, without more loss of life, is a tribute to the security services’ professionalism and their sense of duty in the greater national good.

    What now, as the pullout continues? One settler had the right thought: “We need to find a new life.” That’s a sentiment Palestinians should also embrace. If the Gaza withdrawal is to be but the first step in a wider process of handing back occupied Arab land, as international commitments and law require, Israelis must have confidence that Palestinians are themselves prepared to turn the page on violence.

    Israelis can help, of course, by signalling that Gaza is not a dead end but rather the first step toward a Palestinian state encompassing Jerusalem’s Arab areas and most of the West Bank. The coming evacuation of a few West Bank settlements can be a sign of good faith in that regard. Israelis can help, too, by letting Gazans open an airport and seaport, travel freely to Egypt and the West Bank, and ship goods across borders. People must have a chance to build Gaza into something better than an arid prison compound encircled by Israeli barbed wire.

    But Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, in turn, must prevent Gaza from becoming a cradle of violence, and must warn his people against launching a “third intifada” in the West Bank. That would only stiffen resistance in Israel to ceding sufficient land for a viable Palestinian state. The Palestinian Authority must move swiftly to control Gaza and to suppress attacks from its soil. International donors like Canada must make that a condition of support.

    Israelis are crossing an historic psychological line by quitting Gaza and by dismantling West Bank settlements. A majority have broken with the nationalist/religious myth that settlements equal security. That means hope for the Middle East after decades of strife. If the Gaza pullout merely triggers a third intifada, hope will again be put on hold.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Cindy Sheehan made sure the slogan-fest would be over. <<

    LOL, she’s all about slogan-slinging, just from the left rather than from the right. How is that any better?

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    well Mr Nalle…at least it’s a change from what we have had for the last 5 years

    next up, ’06 and some much welcomed gridlock

    Excelsior!

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Once again, Dave,

    Let me congratulate you for taking Goliath’s side when it comes to speaking truth to power.

    You can ride on Goliath’s big toe while he atttempts to crush little Cindy Sheehan.

    With her chipmunk-sized attempts to match the Giant, targeting his every slogan with her slingshot…and while her sweet little voice and pleas for honesty squeak out into the night, you can be brave Sir Dave who rides the toes of Giants and revels while Giants make mushmeat out of those who dare to challenge his Greatness!

    It is brave (and oh-so-easy) to destroy the meek!

    (With your name, I thought you might better understand what being a David is all about.)

    Some people still believe in “Blessed are the Meek.” Especially when they have public opinion on their side.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    CINDY SHEEHAN SPEAKS ABOUT ISRAEL –
    AN EX-FRIEND USES HER TO PROMOTE HIS ANTI-ISRAEL VIEWS.

    I was on Anderson Cooper and it was pretty good. Anderson didn’t ask me about the Israel thing because he had checked with Nightline. But he followed with a talk show, hate monger host, Darrell Ankarlo who I have had problems with in the past. He said that I have said that I believe all of the troops are murderers and I have never said that, either. Darrell Ankarlo wanted me to be on his show, but I don’t think so.

    Another thing is that the Israel thing has not died.

    I did not say that my son died for Israel.

    I have never said it, I don’t think it, I don’t believe it.

    It is just another lie, smear tactic from the right. It needs to die right now. It’s not the truth. I stand by everything that I have said. But I will not stand by things that I haven’t said.

    I am not anti-Semitic. I am just anti-killing. George Bush is responsible for killing so many people, but nobody scrutinizes anything he says, especially leading up to the war. Since there is nothing to smear me about with the truth, they have to tell lies.

    A former friend who is anti-Israel and wants to use the spotlight on me to push his anti-Semitism is telling everyone who is listening that I believe that Casey died for Israel and has gone so far as to apparently doctor an email from me.

    People have to know that he doesn’t speak for me.

    ABC Nightline can’t confirm his email is real and therefore any reporting on it is irresponsible.

    That is not my issue.

    That is not my message and anyone who knows me knows it doesn’t sound like me.

    I’m focused on my mission in Crawford: to meet with the President and demand answers.

    That’s it. I have spent enough time on that. Enough is enough.

    – CINDY SHEEHAN

    LINK

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>You are NOT an anti-Semite if you believe there are neoconservatives (see PNAC) who have had far too much of a voice and a hand in how we form our foreign policy —- and how neocons have bent and twisted and perverted intelligence at every given opportunity to fit into that policy. You are not an anti-Semite if you believe the President took bad neocon advice in consultation — such as “They’ll greet us with flowers and cheers!” or “Ahmad Chalabi said so!”..and tried to sway the American public with sloganized propaganda.< <

    Toda Raba Jude!!

    what’s next for the smearing? I posted this on Iddybud also – are we gonna blame Sheehan for the recent quake in Japan because she has items in her home that say MADE IN JAPAN on them?

    Is Cindy Sheehan really BIGFOOT?

    Is Karl Rove getting advice from the writers at WORLD WEEKLY NEWS?

    And a little something to warm everyones heart….not

    shabbat shalom

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Cal Thomas displays his political fear of having President Bush meet in private with Cindy Sheehan.

    He says: “Let Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld preside at the gathering. He is the most articulate member of the administration when it comes to defending the reasons we are in Iraq.”

    Another case of a right-winger shaking in his booties at the thought of Bush actually having to appear solo and speaking from his heart. Brings back memories of Cheney having to appear with Bush at the 9/11 hearing.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Americans tell the LA Times that Sheehan is a voice from America’s true heart

  • Dave

    So WHERE is Cindy? She ran off. Left you all in the left side of a ditch in Texas. Jokes on you.
    Meanwhile, there are terrorists in this world. And she is not fighting them. Israel, which some of you knock so much, is. And while it is it is protecting the US. Against hijackers with box-cutters, against bio-terrorists, against guys who get on the trains with rucksacks, we are protecting you. Wanna hop a plane to Tel Aviv or walk around Jaffa for a while and see? Every Jew in America, except for Karl Schwarz, is your friend. Fighting for you…lots of mothers in Israel who lost a son, and they are not wasting Bush’s time are they? They are thankful to be involved, not complaining. They are not advancing conspiracy theories. Look at all the dedicated members of the Jewish community who are now, at this very moment, spending their time working for the fight for freedom in America…Chertoff, for one. He is there making sure you are not attacked by planes anymore. Every day you breathe freedom because of him and others. His mother came from Israel and gave you a son. That’s ’cause she loved America. Don’t start pissing down on those who are your friends. You’re starting to sound like some of these British John Lennon peace freaks and that queen of theirs…but they are starting to learn. You will learn too. We all learn.

  • Dave

    HEY, GUESS WHAT! YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN DESERTED BY CINDY, BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

    You will be joined by those who are FOR THE PRESIDENT, AND AGAINST CINDY AND ANY STUPID SOLDIERS WHO CRITICIZE THE US AND ISRAEL. MAYBE YOU WILL LEARN HOW TO FIGHT! THIS IS WHY CINDY RAN AWAY! TO LEAVE YOU GUYS!

    I BET NONE OF YOU ON THIS ARE THERE…YOU ARE ALL IN SOME HIPPIE CAMP SMOKING HEMP! HA HA!

  • Effendi

    Barbara and Jude (in particular) Thank you for understanding and helping clarify the situation that really is.
    I fully concur that incredible restraint was shown by the IDF this week in dealing with the disengagement and I commend them for that. No matter WHO you are, having caustic liquids thrown in your face would not be easy to deal with. I’m glad that ALL violence was kept minimal. But let me jump back up the page a minute.
    I am not Jewish, therefore I have much less of an interest in the welfare of Israel. If I were Jewish, how could help but support my race and my people in their mission and desires. I am MOST impressed with people (Jews) who do the right thing and support what is right. In putting myself in the shoes of my fellow Jewish Americans it must be an area of personal contention in deciding what the right thing to do is. Do I support my friends and family in Israel as long as they do the right thing? And what do I do or say when I witness something that goes against what is just?
    I am also highly impressed with those who do not jump on the (anti-semitic) name calling wagon at the first review of American Taxpayer Supported Israeli Internal and external policy.
    For those of you who say, “It’s not your business” It is American Dollars so it IS our business what kind of action our dollars back.
    I do believe that 95% of Israeli’s are the same as 95% of Americans and 95% of the Palestinians. That is, they would be mighty Fine with living in peaceful harmony together. Unfortunately we have the 5% radicals of all these groups who dictate the actions of the rest of US. Of course those numbers are just a guess but you get my point. I am No more FOR or AGAINST Israel then I am FOR or AGAINST Iran. I am also concerned with the radical actions of BOTH of these states who have the Power to Destroy life as we know it in the middle east and or start World War III which could so easily Pitt the United States against formidable foes such as Russia or China. This simply cannot be allowed to happen. By giving Israel all these Bunker Busters we send a clear message to Everyone else in the world that we support whatever action the Israeli’s decide on right or wrong, proof or no proof. If for example Israel does decide to attack Iran’s Real or imagined Nukloor bomb capability and Iran retaliates, (Which they will) it’s not going to be pretty. They have Russian Sunburns and other weaponry that will undoubtedly target the Suppliers of the weapons that attacked them. Tehran is NOT Baghdad and we can’t even get a grip THERE. Iran will NOT be the “cakewalk” that Iraq was for US. Therefore enabling Israel as we have with this modern SUPER weaponry is gonna come back to Bite us…Not MAYBE!!. it always does. On the other hand Israel DOES have the RIGHT to protect her own Sovereignty which in MY VIEW would include all necessary Modern Defensive weaponry. The bottom line truth is (No matter what PNAC says) there is No country in the world stupid enough to attack Israel at this time, Syria is not strong enough, There is No Iraq, Iran is just not that stupid, So that means that the only real threat to stability and peace in the middle east is the actions of Israel. I strongly believe that this unchecked flow of American Monies and Arms could likely precipitate the death of the Israeli state not the protection of it Simply because of that radical top 5% who feel called upon by God to facilitate the destruction of this evil world….(rolls eyes)
    Sorry to ramble on but I felt it fair to explain my criticism of the earlier post and define my belief in regards to Israel and the Jewish people.

    Scott!!

  • Effendi

    >>HEY, GUESS WHAT! YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN DESERTED BY CINDY, BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

    You will be joined by those who are FOR THE PRESIDENT, AND AGAINST CINDY AND ANY STUPID SOLDIERS WHO CRITICIZE THE US AND ISRAEL. MAYBE YOU WILL LEARN HOW TO FIGHT! THIS IS WHY CINDY RAN AWAY! TO LEAVE YOU GUYS!

    I BET NONE OF YOU ON THIS ARE THERE…YOU ARE ALL IN SOME HIPPIE CAMP SMOKING HEMP! HA HA! <<

    haha Dave, That will teach you not to log off your computer, your two year old got on, locked the caps and posted under your name!!..lol

    (see I am getting the hang of this)

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    Barbara and Jude (in particular) Thank you for understanding and helping clarify the situation that really is.
    I fully concur that incredible restraint was shown by the IDF this week in dealing with the disengagement and I commend them for that. No matter WHO you are, having caustic liquids thrown in your face would not be easy to deal with. I’m glad that ALL violence was kept minimal. But let me jump back up the page a minute.
    I am not Jewish, therefore I have much less of an interest in the welfare of Israel. If I were Jewish, how could help but support my race and my people in their mission and desires. I am MOST impressed with people (Jews) who do the right thing and support what is right. In putting myself in the shoes of my fellow Jewish Americans it must be an area of personal contention in deciding what the right thing to do is. Do I support my friends and family in Israel as long as they do the right thing? And what do I do or say when I witness something that goes against what is just?

    Thank you Effendi, for that. Many in the IDF had a hard time throwing their own out of Gaza but they did their jobs. How I feel personally about the whole thing has nothing to do with this topic, however, so I will stick to the Sheehan issue.

    However, I consider myself a Jew and I am a mother and an American and as the latter – I believe people are entitled to their own opinions & beliefs and to exercise them AS LONG AS THEY DON’T SLAM THEM DOWN THE THROAT OF OTHERS. (I don’t mean you, Effendi/Scott)

    And as a mother, I stand firmly behind Cindy Sheehan in what she has doing. Since Bush can’t/won’t tell her what noble cause her son died for she found one – getting our precious troops and children out of Iraq & Bush’s war.

    Sheehan is defending her son’s memory as the Jews in Israel defend the memory of the forefathers/mothers who lived in that land before them.

    And Sheehan is with HER MOTHER right now – she abandoned NOTHING. Bush & Lance Armstrong probably had a nice chat without her too!

    BTW Effendi – please let me know when you plan on running for any public office so I can help with your campaign ;)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    So WHERE is Cindy? She ran off. Left you all in the left side of a ditch in Texas. Jokes on you.

    I trust this is not Dave Nalle, because Dave, while he may be our favorite Devil’s advocate, certainly isn’t this mean spirited and stupid.

    Actually, Cindy is caring for her mother in California.

    Rather than disappearing, she has shown up on her diary at Daily Kos and has thanked her supporters personally.

    Today, she said:“The people who have come out to Camp Casey to help coordinate the press and events with me are not putting words in my mouth, they are taking words out of my mouth. I have been known for sometime as a person who speaks the truth and speaks it strongly. I have always called a liar a liar and a hypocrite a hypocrite.”

    And the Jews here who support Cindy will laugh upon hearing that they’ve been accused of being anti-Semites for the forty thousandth time.

    Here’s more words for Dave (not Nalle, but he’s free to read them, too):

    The Downing Street Memos dated 23 July, 2002 prove that he knew that Saddam didn’t have WMD’s or any ties to Al Qaeda. I believe that George lied and he knew he was lying. He didn’t use patriotic rhetoric. He lied and made us afraid of ghosts that weren’t there. Now he is using patriotic rhetoric to keep the U.S. military presence in Iraq: Patriotic rhetoric that is based on greed and nothing else.

    Now I am being vilified and dragged through the mud by the righties and so-called “fair and balanced” main stream media who are afraid of the truth and can’t face someone who tells it by telling any truth of their own. Now they have to twist, distort, lie, and scrutinize anything I have ever said when they never scrutinize anything that George Bush said or is saying. Instead of asking George or Scotty McClellan if he will meet with me, why aren’t they asking the questions they should have been asking all along: “Why are our young people fighting, dying, and killing in Iraq? What is this noble cause you are sending our young people to Iraq for? What do you hope to accomplish there? Why did you tell us there were WMD’s and ties to Al Qaeda when you knew there weren’t? Why did you lie to us? Why did you lie to the American people? Why did you lie to the world? Why are our nation’s children still in harm’s way and dying everyday when we all know you lied? Why do you continually say we have to `complete the mission’ when you know damn well you have no idea what that mission is and you can change it at will like you change your cowboy shirts?”

    …THIS is George Bush’s accountability moment and he is failing…miserably. George Bush and his advisers seriously “misunderestimated” me when they thought they could intimidate me into leaving before I had the answers, or before the end of August. I can take anything they throw at me, or Camp Casey. If it shortens the war by a minute or saves one life, it is worth it. I think they seriously “misunderestimated” all mothers. I wonder if any of them had authentic mother-child relationships and if they are surprised that there are so many mothers in this country who are bear-like when it comes to wanting the truth and who want to make meaning of their child’s needless and seemingly meaningless deaths?

    The Camp Casey movement will not die until we have a genuine accounting of the truth and until our troops are brought home. Get used to it George, we are not going away.

    – Cindy Sheehan

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    From: Bush Won’t Answer Cindy, But Has to Answer Congress

    In the words of Sean Hannity, Fox News, April 6, 1999, Bush must be made to “explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life.

    Hannity the Hypocrite Chickenhawk.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Perhaps some of those who support Cindy Sheehan would like to expand here on what they expect President Bush to say to Cindy Sheehan and how whatever he says could possibly benefit her, the nation, or anyone serving in Iraq in any discernable way.

    Let’s see how realistic your answers are.

    Dave

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “Since Bush can’t/won’t tell her what noble cause her son died for ”

    To:

    1. Eliminate the regime of Saddam Hussein

    2. Eliminate Iraq WMD capabilities

    3. Capture, kill or drive out terrorists and terrorist organizations

    4. Collect intelligence on terrorist networks

    5. Collect intelligence on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction activity and the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activities

    6. End sanctions and immediately deliver humanitarian relief to the displaced and the many needy Iraqi citizens

    7. Secure oil fields and resources, “which belong to the Iraqi people and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect”

    8. Help Iraq achieve representative self-government and insure its territorial integrity

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “The Downing Street Memos dated 23 July, 2002 prove that he knew that Saddam didn’t have WMD’s or any ties to Al Qaeda.”

    I haven’t seen that in the memos.

  • MCH

    Re comment #552;
    “I don’t call names.”
    – Dave Nalle

    CRASH!!!

    (Just me, falling out of my chair in laughter…)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Perhaps some of those who support Cindy Sheehan would like to expand here on what they expect President Bush to say to Cindy Sheehan and how whatever he says could possibly benefit her, the nation, or anyone serving in Iraq in any discernable way.

    You mean you want us to fantasize?
    Because, a meeting’s not gonna happen, Dave.

    That part of the show is over, I’m afraid. Cindy’s gone home, and I’m not sure she’s going to be able to go back.

    Bush had plenty of time to decide if he would meet with her or not.

    He has obviously decided the answer would be no.

    He lost a truckload of respect from me – and plenty of other Americans, I’d suspect.

    Even if he DID meet with her, it would have been private. (Although I’m sure she would have come out and talked about it).

    Don’t have time for fantasy. Wish I did.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Re: Downing Street memos

    We know this much:

    On August 26, 2002, Vice President Dick Cheney gave a major speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and he told them:

    “…we now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. Among other sources, we’ve gotten this from the firsthand testimony of defectors — including Saddam’s own son-in-law, who was subsequently murdered at Saddam’s direction. Many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon.”

    Ex-CIA Ray McGovern says that Dick Cheney lied about Saddam’s son-in-law in that VFW speech. McGovern quoted page 13 of his own debriefing report which said that Saddam’s son’in’law confirmed that all WMD were destroyed in July of 1991, at his order, to prevent the UN inspectors from finding them after the first Gulf war. A whistleblower had leaked this debriefing to Newsweek magazine as the Bush administration’s drumbeat for war got louder. The article about it appeared in Newsweek on February 24, 2003, weeks before the war began. The story never got much play because the timid media supressed the story. McGovern said that a “supine press” eager to accept official explanations contributed to the facilitation of this war.

    McGovern talked about VP Cheney’s personal visits to CIA. He said not only were they “unusual”, they were unprecedented. McGovern said that he believed ‘the best of the CIA’ is gone from the department now. In the old days, you never would have seen CIA acquiesce to fixing the facts around the Executive’s policy whims. Yet, when Cheney went to CIA and told them he wanted certain intelligence to take priority to fit the case for war, too many CIA officials became yes-men. In McGovern’s time, he said most of the CIA would have walked out if they’d been presented with such a request.

    See McGovern’s words here

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>You mean you want us to fantasize?
    Because, a meeting’s not gonna happen, Dave.< <

    No, I was hoping for a clear expression of what the desired or expected outcome of such a meeting might have been. They were asking for a meeting, why not tell us why? Or are you admitting that no meeting was really desired and this was all just a publicity stunt?

    >>That part of the show is over, I’m afraid. Cindy’s gone home, and I’m not sure she’s going to be able to go back.< <

    Believe me, if her handlers want her back there to score more points for them they'll pay for it and she'll go, because that's where her ego goes to feed and where their interests are best served.

    >>Bush had plenty of time to decide if he would meet with her or not.

    He has obviously decided the answer would be no.< <

    Well of course. No one has an obligation to give in to partisan political bullying.

    >>He lost a truckload of respect from me – and plenty of other Americans, I’d suspect.< <

    Then they're easily led sheep and awfully naive.

    >>Even if he DID meet with her, it would have been private. (Although I’m sure she would have come out and talked about it).< <

    Except that she never would have allowed a private meeting.

    >>Don’t have time for fantasy. Wish I did.<<

    You sure have time to defend the fantasizing of the Weekly Standard over on that other thread.

    Dave

  • http://www.whitehouse.gov MSG John

    “Ex-CIA Ray McGovern says that Dick Cheney lied ”

    And this is where in the Downing Street memos?

    “McGovern quoted page 13 of his own debriefing report which said that Saddam’s son’in’law confirmed that all WMD were destroyed in July of 1991, at his order, to prevent the UN inspectors from finding them after the first Gulf war.”

    And that would explain the stuff that the UN did find after 1991 and were supervising the destruction of until 1998 and then resumed destoying in 2003? Oh look, UNMOVIC supervizing detoxification os mustard gas in Feb 2003 — here and here

    Guess it wasn’t all destroyed in 1991. Therefore, McGovern’s source was incorrect. Bye Bye McGovern.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    “He lost a truckload of respect from me – and plenty of other Americans, I’d suspect.

    Did you actually have a truckload of respect before this?

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    And after saying he would leave the thread to smarter people – of course he didn’t.

    You can go now 1 percenter; this thread is tired and old remember? Do you realize how many times you contradicted yourself, just in this thread alone? As an argument technique it’s a whitewash and it works as a distraction for some but it’s very pathetic. (Note to “some” – shut up – stop feeding the ego; there’s nothing there worth your time)

    You said you were done, yet you’re still here. You said it almost 100 comments ago, yet you’re still here? You aren’t important to this discussion, having, as far as I can read only contributed bile and anger. You are loud, prolific and obnoxious. But then so is diarrhea.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Are you directing your personal insults me this time or someone else, Temple? It’s a bit unclear.

    Dave

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Did you actually have a truckload of respect before this?

    I’ve always held out hope he’d do the right thing – in any of his political ventures. Perhaps I should have said I’d lost a truckload of hope – and believe me, I am a very hopeful person who happens to care deeply about this country.

  • John

    Cindy is back in California, at least temporarily. Camp Casey continues to grow. Others who have lost loved ones have stepped up to face down the Texas White House. Support for Camp Casey has come in from all over the country. George is running away from the ranch tomorrow, in the middle of his vacation, to a couple of the most rural states in the nation to give speeches to the most supportive crowds he can still find. News media all over the country has found new backbone to comment on Mr. Bush’s war and the budding Islamic state we now occupy. And high level Republicans are distancing themselves from the war and George just as fast as they can slither.

    Cindy Sheehan knew that Mr. Bush would not talk to her and answer her question, because she knew he had no answer he could safely admit. By going to Crawford and merely waiting for an answer from Mr. Bush, she, and through her the rest of the country, got a non answer that spoke far louder and more honestly than any words.

    The attack dogs can slime Cindy Sheehan all they want now. It makes no difference. She has already won.

    The Right Wing pundits claimed she was sitting in that ditch outside of Crawford for ulterior motives, that she had an agenda, that she was just a pawn of the Left. But their claims never quite took hold, because they were all so very wrong. She didn’t do it for the Left.

    She did it for her son.

  • Anthony Grande

    Exactly what dogs were let loose on Sheehan??? Are you saying this because polls show the the majority of Americans disagree with Sheehan??? That is not Bush’s fault my freind, that is her fault.

    Or are the Bush’s dogs the anti Sheehan protestors who are also camped out on the ranch??? I am sorry to inform you but not everyone hates Bush and the war, that is probabally why he got reelected.

  • MCH

    Jude,

    Congratulations (again) on a great post. 624 comments (and counting) on your very first try; almost 500 more comments than Dave Nalle has ever received, in more than 130 posts!

    And his jealousy is just dripping off of every single word he directs at you…

  • Anthony Grande

    MCH, she just got more comments because she wrote an opinionated and absurd post that will attract people to hate on it and liberals that argue with the haters.

    Jude, Sheehan is doing much more than being a mom mourning for her son. A mourning mom puts flowers on her sons
    grave and prays for his sole. A mourning mom doesn’t jump into politics, become a celebrity, denounce a president, country, military and cause.

    The second Sheehan let Michael Moore and other Hollywood idiots join her she became fair game for us conservatives.

    Bush doesn’t need to denounce us. If anyone needs to be denounced it is Sheehan, but she denounces herself and the Democratic Party every time she opens her mouth or shows her face.

    You are right, Casey is gone, but he still is watching what his mother is doing and is sad that she has gone insane and greety infront of the world.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I hadn’t even thought of counting my comments until now. Glad I have MCH to do it for me – even if his math skills are weak – i have one post with 240 responses.

    Perhaps I get less than 600 responses because things I post make sense and don’t just stir up partisan argument. I’ll make sure to post something inflammatory soon to see how many I can get.

    Dave

  • http://barbarany_9.blogspot.com Barbara

    >>because things I post make sense and don’t just stir up partisan argument. I’ll make sure to post something inflammatory soon to see how many I can get<<

    hello? Mothership? Dave’s ready.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Read some of my posts, Barbara. If you think they’re the same sort of partisan dreck as this thing is, you’re sadly mistaken.

    Dave

  • John

    Here you go, AG, an attack dog:

    “I mean, Cindy Sheehan is just Bill Burkett. Her story is nothing more than forged documents. There’s nothing about it that’s real, including the mainstream media’s glomming onto it. It’s not real. – Rush Limbaugh –
    *

    I guess Rush didn’t see the casket. Not surprising. They tend to only get moved after dark. But as I said, it doesn’t matter. The battle is done. Cindy has won. Now watch what happens to the war.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Rush went on to say, “We’ve all lost things” in dismissing Sheehan’s loss.

    Maybe he was talking about his precious pills?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well, Rush did lose a lot of weight. Do you think terrorists stole it?

    Dave

  • kg

    The fact that W is running away to canvass support has shown she has won. Even if the majority of Americans support the war, so what? The majority of Germans supported the war too in the 1930s. Cindy Sheehan was not there, but some individuals did, members of the White Rose for instance, who were college kids who distributed pamphlets. They were executed. They called on Germans to rise up and denounce Hitler or BE FOREVER SHAMED. THE SAME APPLIES TO AMERICANS TODAY: RENOUNCE BUSH OR BE FOREVER SHAMED. HE IS A PAEDOPHILE AND A DRUG DEALER WHO IS BEHIND 9/11. THE PROOF OF 9/11 BEING AN INSIDE JOB IS MOUTAIN HIGH, AND IT MAKES MANY PEOPLE COMPLICIT IN THESE TERRORSIST ACTS WHEN THEY IGNORE IT. WHO DO YOU THINK DID THE ANTHRAX WHICH WAS DONE IN TIME TO CLOSE THE SENATE AND THE SUPREME COURT SO AS TO FACILITATE PASSAGE OF THE PATRIOT ACT?

    Casey Sheehan died because people were too afraid to investigate 9/11 and the anthrax attacks. They were afraid to stand againt the crowd and be ridiculed, so now there is a ridiculous preisident waging fictitious war. How soon before the next phony terror attack? Does Iran get blamed so they can maintain the profits from a long and sustained war? Bush’s people were behind making armaments in WWII – and, get this, SHIPPING THEM TO THE NAZIS: THAT’S RIGHT, HITLER’S WEAPONS WERE MADE IN THE USA. THEY WERE SHIPPED VIA the HAMBURG-AMERIKA SHIPPING LINE; operated by Prescott Bush.

    War is a game created to make hidden profits. Those who allow this to go on deserve to be punished. Cindy Sheehan deserves the support of any patriotic American, but where is the left? Time to put your mugshots on a milk carton with the title: MISSING. Have you seen this Democrat? Believed to have run off with the Chicken Hawks. Reward offered for information leading to their impeachment.

    AMERICA IS BEING LIED TO BY THE NEO CONS and many right wing religious nuts.

  • MCH

    “Her story is nothing more than forged documents.”
    – Rush Limbaugh

    Kind of like Lardbaugh’s phoney 4F medical deferment (for a pimple on his butt) when he dodged the draft, perhaps?

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Perhaps I get less than 600 responses because things I post make sense and don’t just stir up partisan argument

    Dave,

    I think that was a shoddy thing to have resorted to saying about my bringing my original opinion to the table.

    Envy is one of the worst and most self-damaging virtues a person can possess.

    I’m a kind, humble, and respectful person and ego is not an issue for me.
    I just don’t have a big ego.

    I’m sorry that you let others push your ego to a point where you felt that you had to attack my and assign motives to it.

    When I wrote this, it was August 9th. At that time, I had no idea this would become such a major discussion for all of America.

    Respectfully
    Jude

  • Jude

    I’m sorry that you let others push your ego to a point where you felt that you had to attack my and assign motives to it.

    That should say:

    I’m sorry that you let others push your ego to a point where you felt that you had to attack my writing and assign motives to it.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Anthony,

    she just got more comments because she wrote an opinionated and absurd post that will attract people to hate on it and liberals that argue with the haters.

    I believe that you, like Dave, should be ashamed of yourselves for attempting to get into my heart and soul and telling others what my motives were for giving my opinion here. I am beginning to know how Cindy Sheehan feels – if you don’t like the message or the response to it, attack the messenger and pretend you know a secret reason why she is saying the words she is saying.

    I haven’t seen many people you call “haters” here, and “liberals” surely aren’t the only others involved on this conversation.

    No – I see opinions from Americans. We’re all Americans..first and foremost.

    Jude, Sheehan is doing much more than being a mom mourning for her son. A mourning mom puts flowers on her sons grave and prays for his sole. A mourning mom doesn’t jump into politics, become a celebrity, denounce a president, country, military and cause.

    Once again, you project yourself into Cindy Sheehan’s soul. You cannot possibly know what Mrs. Sheehan must do to process her own grief. You’re dead wrong making an argument like this.

    The second Sheehan let Michael Moore and other Hollywood idiots join her she became fair game for us conservatives.

    “Let?” Oh, please, Anthony. That would be like me saying I “let” Barbara (here on this thread) say that she agrees with me that there is too much confusion about the President’s message obviously failing Iraq war.

    People have their own free will. If Mr. Moore wants to speak, I certainly don’t think Cindy Sheehan had to give him a permission slip. Nor is she responsible for his expression – we are all individuals responsible for ourselves.

    Bush doesn’t need to denounce us.

    Us? I suggested that Bush denounce the attack squad and their tactics. So you are admitting you are one of the group? The “haters” (attack dogs)?

    I think I am beginning to understand why you are imagining, out loud, the reasons I started this discussion.

    I believe you should think for yourself and take responsibility for your own words…and not try to let your imagination get you carried away.

    If you want to know why I started this conversation, why don’t you just ask me?

    Exactly what dogs were let loose on Sheehan??? Are you saying this because polls show the the majority of Americans disagree with Sheehan??? That is not Bush’s fault my freind, that is her fault.

    I wrote this opinion on AUGUST 9th.
    It is now August 22nd.

    Now let me ask you: What information would I have had at that time – on August 9th – about public opinion polls?

    Think about it – the dogs/the attack squad have influenced public opinion polls on Cindy Sheehan since I wrote this opinion on August 9th.

    As I’ve said before, the polls on what people think of Sheehan is far less important than what the American public thinks about the war in Iraq.

    I still firmly believe that if President Bush was a man of the utmost good character, he would have met with Cindy Sheehan again – on Aug 8th when Sen George Allen publically recommended that he should – long before it had to come to any of this.

    And President Bush, had he possessed good character and leadership ability, would have made a public comment about his disappointment in seeing deragatory comments about Mrs. Sheehan in the media. He left a mother of a fallen soldier alone in front of his ranch – he drove by her on the way to a fatcat party – by refusing to look her in the eye, he showed us that he didn’t have answers to her questions that could ease any of our suspicions and/or concerns.

    He is supposed to be coming out and talking to the nation – and more than two weeks have passed in the Cindy Sheehan saga. Two weeks. Why has it taken that long for the President to come up with any sufficient reassurances for any of us?

    I’ll tell you why i believe it to be so.

    He is rethinking this whole mess.

    He can’t tell you that, of course.

    But, in the end, Cindy Sheehan has accomplished something BIG – and it was raising the public consciousness about this war to a level where the Bush administration has had to rethink their overall message.

    They’d better come up with something better than slogans. The American public will no longer accept slogans.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Congratulations (again) on a great post. 624 comments (and counting) on your very first try

    Actually, I’ve written other features for BlogCritics.

    For one example, I reviewed an opera here and got no comments at all.

    My first Blogcritics piece didn’t get a lot of play. I think it was too soon for most people to realize the mess we were in.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    John,

    Your opinion in Comment 624, free of emotion and conjecture, sums it up – quite well.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I think that was a shoddy thing to have resorted to saying about my bringing my original opinion to the table. <<

    Jude, you didn’t want to go there. The point I was making had nothing to do with ego. I was pointing out that I don’t write pieces filled with partisan attacks, so I don’t generate the kind of angry responses and self-righteous defensiveness which your post did.

    Perhaps you should go back and read your post again. Why it stirred people up is pretty clear.

    “Matt Drudge is employing, with a Right attack-dog-wind beneath his wings [he got the report archive from Freepers]”

    “the objective is to discredit the mother of a fallen Iraqi soldier.”

    “And she has been told that she will be arrested if she remains in Crawford”

    Let’s see, that’s two hatemongerings and repeating a lie. Are you surprised you got a lot of response? Plus interspersed with that were long sections of near deification of a revenge-maddened pawn of the extreme left. As I recall a few people found that objectionable too.

    The point is that if you write an article full of hate, lies and extremism you get a lot of responses. I don’t do that, so I don’t expect to get the same kind of response.

    Dave

  • Jude

    Your response gives me further insight as to your general character. As for your opinion, you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t change the fact that Matt Drudge got information from Free Republic and used it on his website, and it doesn’t change the fact that many have sought to break down the public’s opinion of Mrs Sheehan or that, on August 9th, the information was quite valid about the possibility of the arrest of Mrs. Sheehan.

  • Effendi

    Hey Jude,
    Thank You for defending yourself although there is simply no need. If one took the time to read back through these 600 posts they would see that you your intent and response was honest and honorable from the beginning and has remained that way. I’m not sure what to make of the “Rove-ites” like Nalle who do make sense some of the time (just barely enough to keep reading) but constantly slip and show that there own personal agenda stands before what is right and good for America.

    There accusations become more and more pathetic and pitiful and it seems like every time there is another freeper that trolls on here we hear weaker and weaker arguments from them.

    When I first read this blog and responded to it, I was much more middle of the road in so far as I accepted and believed that each side tried to present valid arguments and build their position from that.

    In the course of honest discussion I observed the lowest common denominator achieved by the right in accusing honest middle of the road Americans of being coerced by the likes of Michael Moore and whomever else. I have not heard or read Michael Moore weigh in on this subject and it became apparent right off that the conservative right had no intention of being honest of reviewing the facts, they stand behind some of the least respectful liars and idiots in the country like Limbaugh and Drudge that prove over and over again that they have no interest in Honesty, there only interest is in smear and confusion. They group and lump all of US that may disagree with certain points into the “Anti-American enemy”. In my observation the so called “Liberal Left” is at the very least HONEST about what they report and what they say. They want to win also but are not willing to be dishonest in the fight.
    Therefore, regardless of whether or not I agree more with the right or the left on some of these issues, I have been “Won Over” by the Left SIMPLY because of what I have observed in your tactics. People that insist on achieving an edge using misinformation, downright lies and falsified association tactics will not get my support even if they are right on some points because Your MO is Unacceptable to me. If we were enemies on this board I could understand lies and deception but we were supposed to all be honest Americans, I have not seen this from your crowd. They seem dishonest and liars right down the line.

    The people who have fought for America are true in their perspective and it seems that most of the freepers have found ways not to ever put their own lives on the line.
    I am not the kind of person (and never will be) that would become some kind of Peacenik, but I am intelligent enough to recognise a web of lies and deceit.

    Thank you Jude and crew for helping clarify what is REAL.

    As for Nalle, right now you should feel like that guy from the Ditech Commercials, you know the guy that slaps his head and says..DAMN, I Lost another one.

    If you follow suit to the rest of your history, your predicted response will be “So what”, but I’m telling you that 2 weeks ago I was much more willing to listen to Your Side until you and the cretins you support commit the ultimate sin and disrespected my mother.

    There will be a time when you realize the huge mistake you have made and will realise that even in intelligent discourse there are some lines not to cross.

    I am no longer with You.

    I am Against You!!

    Scott!!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Your response gives me further insight as to your general character. < <

    Yep, I do stand up for truth and moderation, inconvenient though that may be for you to accept.

    >>As for your opinion, you’re entitled to it, but it doesn’t change the fact that Matt Drudge got information from Free Republic and used it on his website, and it doesn’t change the fact that many have sought to break down the public’s opinion of Mrs Sheehan< <

    These things are true, but they are the kind of things that stir up anger or defensiveness depending on who reads them. That generates responses. Nothing wrong with it, just pointing out that if your post is full of things which piss people off, it gets responses.

    >> or that, on August 9th, the information was quite valid about the possibility of the arrest of Mrs. Sheehan. <<

    Except that it wasn’t, because the local Sheriff had already issued his statement that there was no way anyone was getting arrested unless they committed a crime.

    Dave

  • John

    While I’d seen the inner workings of the nasty smear attack on John Kerry, still I figured that such smearing was SOP for presidential elections, to be expected from Rove and company. And any candidate who couldn’t defend against it probably wasn’t quite up to the task of riding herd on the US of A. After all, the Chinese and the North Koreans play at least that rough.

    Still, I was shocked to see such a powerful professional smear machine turned loose on a noncandidate, a woman who had lost a son in the war, a woman whose only crime consisted of sitting in a ditch outside Mr. Bush’s ranch saying what she honestly felt.

    What Ms. Sheehan was doing in that ditch in hundred degree heat was devious, ingenious, but quite simple, as such things often are. What she was saying was honest. And she was calling on Mr. Bush to be honest as well. What was devious was that as Ms. Sheehan sat there on her lawn chair in that ditch she *knew* Mr. Bush could not face her, because she *knew* he could not be honest with her. What was ingenious was that she found a way to demonstrate precisely that to America and to the world.

    She did the unexpected, probably unexpected even to her at the time. She caught the Bush political operatives completely flat footed, on vacation. She walked right into a critical mass of bored reporters and gave the Bushites no time whatsoever to plan their attack, or even a good defense.

    But the smear machine was their favorite tool, and they were accustomed to using it on political enemies large and small, so they immediately thrust it into drive, then overdrive, then hyperdrive, trying to play catch up, unable to figure out how to quietly, yet rapidly, sneak up on this unusual victim. In doing so the machine exposed itself. The attack was rude, crude, and so overwhelming and uncontrolled that the machine choked on its own vile bile, and nearly everyone saw it for what it was.

    I sorta think Cindy Sheehan knew from the first day in the ditch that very thing would happen. And I imagine she will continue to call the administration to task for its lies and deceit, and the administration will continue to spew and to hide, and most folks will continue to watch the ducking and dodging of the Bush White House and see it for what it is.

    Ms. Sheehan’s vigil has been so effective that the Bushites are even inventing conspiricy theories to try and comprehend it. Does any one have a roll of aluminum foil handy? Those folks need some hats.

    There really are smarter people in this world than Karl Rove, and it’s best not to anger them.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    John — expertly said, expertly laid out.

    And it’s important to remember the long trail of Bush Administration victims dating back to the campaign of ’00.

    (Someone probably laid them out on this very long thread, so I won’t repeat here…)

  • Jude

    Dave –

    Let’s see that official statement, as I would have been able to find it on the morning of August 9th.

    The NBC news staff couldn’t even get the Sheriff to return their calls.

    August 9th, 2005
    Locals join mom of fallen soldier staging protest near Bush ranch
    NBC 6 News

    “I’m willing to be arrested,” Sheehan says. “I’ll still be there and if they let me out of jail, I’ll go back.”

    McLennan County Sheriff Larry Lynch did not return repeated phone calls from NBC 6. Sheehan says she does not expect to get that face to face meeting with President Bush.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Try googling Kenneth Vanek.

  • Jude

    OK Joe, thanks – August 11th -

    But no protesters will be arrested unless they trespass on private property or block the road, said Capt. Kenneth Vanek of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Office.

    This was put out as breaking news – on Aug 11th – two full days AFTER I posted the original column, disproving Mr. Nalle’s point, which was no point at all, since I’m telling you I’d seen no statement to the contrary on Aug 9th, anyhow.

    You righties are lazy – making me do work to see if you can make me look bad.

    Attack the messenger – hard to believe it’s come down to that.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Did you know that when you do a google search there is a function you can use to search only news stories? In fact, I found one going back to Aug 6th where Sheriff’s Department Captain Kenneth Vanek said prior to departing to lead the caravan, “As long as y’all work with us, we’ll work with y’all.”

    You call me lazy and then you bemoan attacking the messenger? Unless, of course you consider laziness a virtue…

  • Jude

    Duh. Obviously, I know how Google works, Joe.
    And I saw the article you mention in your BIG revelation much earlier.

    It has no relevance whatsoever.

    On August 6, Cindy Sheehan had NOT YET been threatened with the arrest I was talking about when I wrote this column.

    AUGUST 8 – Cindy Sheehan phoned me from Texas a few minutes ago to say that she’s been informed that beginning Thursday, she and her companions will be considered a threat to national security and will be arrested.

    Also, Vanek took that irrelevant August 6th statement back, with his actions, shortly after he made it.

    Captain Kenneth Vanek of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department agreed to work with the members of Cindy Sheehan and her group of supporters last Saturday as they made their way to President Bush’s Prairie Chapel ranch; however, their deal broke about four miles from the ranch when the group walked on the road, not the ditch, as they were told to do to allow for traffic flow, according to the officers. Four miles from Bush’s Ranch, the supporters of Cindy Sheehan, co-founder of Gold Star Families for Peace, stopped because the McLennan County Sherriff’s Department said the group had disobeyed orders by walking on the roadway, not the grassy shoulder.

    If you had checked closely, you would have caught all of that.

    You’ll have to do better than that, Joe the Jude-attacker.

  • Jude

    FROM CINDY SHEEHAN:

    Mon Aug 22nd, 2005 at 09:43:57 PDT
    I love you people on the Daily Kos so much.

    My mom is stable and is moving to her own room today to begin physical therapy. She did have a major stroke, but if we can keep her from having another one, she should recover somewhat. She is getting excellent care and we are friends with the doctors and nurses.

    I am going back to Camp Casey soon. In the next couple of days.

    Thank you for all of your support and love.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Stop trying to flirt with me.

  • Jude

    MORE FROM MRS. SHEEHAN:
    LINK -Aug 23rd

    George: even if you pretend you didn’t know that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction and Iraq was not threat to the USA before you invaded, Americans know differently. We have read the reports and the Downing Street Memos. We know you had to “fit the intelligence around the policy” of invading Iraq. I want to know what your real reasons were….I will be back in Crawford George: Even closer to you now in Camp Casey II. Why don’t you channel some courage from my son and come down and face me. Face the truth. Your house of cards built on smoke and mirrors is crumbling and you know it.

    BUSH: “I’ve met with a lot of families,” Bush said. “She doesn’t represent the view of a lot of families I have met with.”

    MRS. SHEEHAN: I never said I did. I want one answer: What is the “noble cause” MY son died for. There are also dozens, if not hundreds of families from all over the country who want to know the same thing.

    AP article:
    “Bush said he planned to go on a hike and have dinner later Tuesday with Kempthorne and the Idaho congressional delegation. Bush said he also planned to spend “quality time” with first lady Laura Bush, who is traveling with him.”

    MRS. SHEEHAN: I would give everything I own, will own, or have owned to have one more glimpse of my son. Dare I even say…one last hug or phone call? How dare he go on vacation and live a normal life when he has ruined mine by his lies? How dare he take 5 weeks off when he is waging a devastating and needless war?

    **There’s a lot more if you want to read it – link above

  • Jude

    Do you see every woman who makes you eat crow as “flirting” with you? :) You take the cake, my man.

    God love ya, you know I’m right.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Well, it makes as much sense as you saying I’m attacking you.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Well, Jude – it sounds like they’ve already had a conversation – at least in her mind or the imagination of the moveon.org flack writing her statements for her.

    >>MRS. SHEEHAN: I never said I did. I want one answer: What is the “noble cause” MY son died for. There are also dozens, if not hundreds of families from all over the country who want to know the same thing.< <

    When so many other people see this clearly why couldn't anyone explain it to her? How is an explanation fromt he president actually necessary? Perhaps she could just go read this article by a professor from Cairo University. If it’s so clear to him and to more and more here in the US, maybe someone could just sit her down and explain it to her.

    Dave

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Cindy Sheehan phoned me from Texas a few minutes ago to say that she’s been informed that beginning Thursday, she and her companions will be considered a threat to national security and will be arrested.

    Since no law enforcement agency ever publicly stated this and it didn’t happen, are we to presume the statement was a lie?

    Also, why is that Vanek broke the deal? He kept up his end of the bargain.

  • Jude

    Since no law enforcement agency ever publicly stated this and it didn’t happen, are we to presume the statement was a lie?

    That’s up to you.

    I didn’t post it here for the purpose of you to believe or not believe.

    I posted it because of the assumption/accusation Dave Nalle had hurled my way. Comment 641/644.

    That’s the reason we’re discussing it at all.

    If he thought I would let him lead anyone believe that I had ready information at my fingertips, on August 9th, about any comment made by any McLellan Sheriffs official on the threat of arrest made to Ms Wilson on Aug 8th, that he was wrong. There was no official comment until the breaking news on August 11th.

    Period.

  • Jude
  • http://nyctwinmum.tblog.com Barbara

    Jude:
    ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! PIMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    such a Lovely and accurate picture of you.

    when can we get together and shop for burkas?

    xxoo

  • John911

    Once again, it isn’t necessary to smear Cindy Sheehan, She can shoot herself n the foot without our help:

    Wearing a sweatshirt advertising the website for United for Peace and Justice, Sheehan was interviewed outside just before the meeting by an ABC-TV news reporter. Sheehan said then that military recruiters should not be allowed on college campuses, maintaining they trick naïve 18-year-olds with offers of money and scholarships. Tragically, Cindy Sheehan lost her son Casey who was in the Army and was killed two weeks after arriving in Iraq. She claimed he was promised a job as a chaplain’s assistant although once in the service was placed in a combat role and killed, certainly a moving story – one she exploits to promote venomous anti-Americanism. “George Bush and his neo-conservatives killed my son,” she said tearing up a bit. “America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for.”

    Please, most of you can’t be that politically naive to believe your own rhetoric. The once grieving mother, who was always virulently anti-war by her own statements, is now a shrill political shill for the anti-Bush folks. Have you seen the Michael Ramirez cartoon for 8/22?

    http://cagle.msnbc.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/ramirez.asp

  • kg

    So the US is turning against the moron…about time, it’s only been a decade since his child abuse has been reported. 2,000 people to cheer him in Utah, while 6,000 turn out to oppose him. Maybe a few votes got thrown out after all…

    IN SOME COUNTRIES THEY PUT VOTES IN CLEAR PLASTIC BOXES. VERY COST EFFECTIVE.

    SO IS THE US NOW GOING TO ATTACK VENEZUELA? AND WHY DID ROBERTSONS COMPANY PALCE BETS AGAINST THEIR ECONOMY BEFORE HE SPOKE?

  • John911

    Diverting to WMD (again), does anyone else remember the little oddity that we found in Iraq? The pre-gulf war chemical weapons artillery shells in a post war built bunker? Of course, it was a simple error on Saddam’s part. He had no intention of arming those shells that were among 550 he failed to turn over to UN inspectors, which are not good for anything else but chemical warfare.

    That no WMD’s have been found is clear. That there never were any WMD’s to find is not. Whether buried in Iraq or smuggled into Syria, no one can say for certain either way.

    What is known is that Saddam played cat and mouse with UN inspectors, denying them entry to suspected sites and then letting them in after the sites had been sanitized. The NSA has photographic evidence of covered trucks leaving from the rear of more than one site while UN inspectors were being denying entrance at the main gate. If there was nothing to hide, why the game?

    The prevalent theory is that, having used chemical weapons against Iran, he wanted them to believe he still had that capability. So our intelligence sources had their own axes to grind (many of the Iraqi’s in exile) and Saddam wanted Iran to think he could still stop them with chemical or biologial weapons. Gee, I wonder who we could blame for believing them? President Bush, of course!

    And if we had ignored that intell, the sanctions had lapsed and Iraq used a WMD against Iran or Israel or Saudi Arabia, who could we blame for not following up on that intell? Why, President Bush of course!

    So forget all your rhetoric, unsupported allegations and downright lies, those of us who disagree with you understand your position without all the high octane ranting. You don’t like what’s happened (you lost the election), you are very unhappy and someone else has to be to blame. Why, President Bush.

    Of course.

  • John911

    By the way, some of the postings here are a great example of why you lost the last election. While the tactic of smearing your rival by claiming that he or she is to the far right (or far left, in Cindy’s case…no one would claim she is a middle of the roader) is common these days, too many of you make the mistake of believing your own rhetoric.

    The far right are a powerful minority, but they are a minority. The people you’ve offended are conservative Democrats, Republicans and Independents. Dismissing their concerns tipped the balance. Don’t believe it? The Democrats do, which is why the news is full of their attempts to sway these voters back. Sort of like how they suddenly jumped on the law and order band wagon back in the early 70’s.

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Iddybud

    John911 –

    Your style of debate tells me a lot about who you are.

    Example:

    You don’t like what’s happened (you lost the election), you are very unhappy and someone else has to be to blame.

    This is something that I would expect to hear from a 3rd grader, not an intelligent gent.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Iddy, what John said made perfect sense and is fundamentally true. You may object to him directing it at too broad an audience, but the content of his last post is dead on.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Jude

    Okay let me get this straight: Bush gave orders to people to harass Cindy Sheehan. It was on Bush’s orders that 65% of America hates Cindy Sheehan.

    Also you say that Bush should look Sheehan straight in the eye and say why her son had to die. Well Sheehan had 15 minutes alone with Bush after her son’s death. So why didn’t she ask him then? She probabally forgot to ask.

    Don’t you understand Jude? Sheehan is INSANE!!! Either she went crazy, some big liberal paid her or she is smarter than we think and planned this so she can be a celebrity.

    Did you know that Casey Sheehan wasn’t razed by Cindy? Thats right Casey was razed by his stepmother who probabally supports the war. Cindy wasn’t in his life. I always thought the mother gets custody, but in this case the father probabally proved she wasn’t mentally fit which is obvious know.

    Cindy is far from a grieving mother. She is a greedy (EDITED)

    Jude if as conservatives weren’t here this post would dry up like the rest of yours.

    One of Bush’s Dogs, Anthony Grande

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Anthony, only 38% of the country hates her. 35% like her and the remaining 27% just wish she’d shut up and go away and possibly take Bush and the news media with her so they can go back to watching Rockstar INXS.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Dave, forget about all those polls and go and ask people you know are interested in politics about they think of Sheehan. Then tell me if you still think that poll(which i believe was done by Fox) is accurate.

    I have never meant a Sheehan supporter in person, because they are rare.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Anthony, talking to the guys down on the streetcorner or at the gun show isn’t exactly a scientific poll. I’ll stick with the Rasmussen numbers.

    Dave

  • billy

    dave, rasmussen is a bush lover, every poll he does has like a 40% repub sample when they only make up 31% of the population.

    but if you want to feel good artificially about the republicans rassmussen is a good way to go.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Billy, I was on your side there for once. Why queer it by coming in with the partisan hate again?

    And BTW, polls of independents show that they lean Republican around 60:40 on most issues, so that accounts for the slightly stronger partisan showing Republicans have.

    I’d also like to see your proof that Rasmussen’s documentedly random polls have an extra smattering of Republicans. Their polls are consistently the most accurate around.

    Dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Billy, isn’t it funny that Republicans only make up 31% of the population but Bush got reelected overwhelmingly.

  • billy

    what i cant fight you every time?

    i strongly disagree with your indy 60:40 split. just go look at the 04 pres results.

    ill agree rasmussen hit the 04 pres numbers right on, but many of his polls are pure bs.

    in the USA

    36% dem
    31% repub
    rest: independant.

    polls should be weighted this way to be accurate, unless you just want a feel good partisan poll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    An Opinion Dynamics poll during the last election showed independents supporting Bush over Kerry by 52% to 38%. IMO counting small parties like the Libertarians and Constitution Party 60:40 is almost exactly right.

    >>polls should be weighted this way to be accurate, unless you just want a feel good partisan poll<<

    No, polls should be random with a large enough sample to represent the population as a whole.

    Dave

  • Jude

    Okay let me get this straight: Bush gave orders to people to harass Cindy Sheehan

    Dear Heavens, Anthony- you’re a regular attack-mokey.

    I believe you are either dense or you failed to see the sentence used in the column that kicked this off:

    “President George W. Bush. You say you are a man of compassion. Do the right thing – denounce Sheehan’s ugly rightwing attack-squad and give her the meeting she desires.”

    D-E-N-O-U-N-C-E

    Look it up.

    Did you know that Casey Sheehan wasn’t razed by Cindy?

    You’re right – he was razed by a murderer in Iraq. Look up the word “razed” in the dictionary.

    Also, you’re asking questions that others have already asked.

    At the first meeting she asked Bush:
    “I think you can imagine it a little bit, Mr. President. You have daughters. How would you feel if one of them was killed? Trust me, Mr. President –- you don’t want to go there.”

    He said, “You’re right. I don’t.”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Sheehan is INSANE

    Anthony, Anthony, Anthony.
    Just listen to you.
    I had a feeling rightwing boobs such as yourself would get desperate, but I never suspected how low you’d sink.

  • Jude

    Iddy, what John said made perfect sense and is fundamentally true. You may object to him directing it at too broad an audience, but the content of his last post is dead on.

    You think it made perfect sense.
    I did not.

    You made a declaratory statement that John911’s statement was “fundamentally true” – – while you should have said you believed it to be true. Something isn’t “true” for everyone just because you say it is.

    You made up a sentence about me “objecting to John911 directing his statement at too broad an audience,” …and I never said anything of the kind. I said I thought he was debating like a 3rd grader.

    Stop making stuff up, Dave.

    You are going below the belt whenever you do this and you won’t get a decent person’s respect for it.

    What you believe and what is true often conflicts, when you make declaratory claims to which you are not realistically entiled.

  • Jude

    The only poll that matters is what people think about the Iraq war…not what they personally think of Cindy Sheehan.

    Only 36% of America think Bush is doing a satisfactory job – and that doesn’t stop him, does it?

  • John911

    Polls don’t count…ask Dewey. Your thinking of Bill Clinton who made his decisions by favorable polls. That’s why his nickname was the great waffler.

    What counts are the elections, and even then only those, like me, who can be counted on to actually vote.

    “If the election were held today…” Well it isn’t, and people always underestimate the vote AGAINST the other guy.

  • Mark the Sane and Sensible

    “but Bush and his administration don’t care about America. Not even a little tiny bit. They care about themselves, and the corporate interests that put them in power. That’s it.”

    hey pal, guess what, there are some of us who DON’T WANT Bush and his admin to care about “us.” I can take care of myself and so can a lot of other people who know how to prosper by their own wits. If YOU can’t, that’s YOUR problem, not Bush’s. I’m not some libbie puke who thinks gov’t should look out for my personal needs. All I want from my gov’t is a strong military and a laissez faire economy. if I can’t survive via my own means then I deserve to perish. It’s a pity more Americans are unwilling to adopt the same bootstrap mentality. That’s why we’ve become primarily a nation of pantywaists and cowards afraid to fight for what those in the past sacrificed their lives for. It makes me sick.

  • Jude

    Among those defending Cindy Sheehan are former U.S. ambassador Joseph Wilson, who believes that his wife’s identity as an undercover CIA operative was leaked in retaliation for his criticism of the Bush administration in a 2002 New York Times op-ed piece.

    “The Bush White House and its right-wing allies are responding to Cindy Sheehan and the military families’ vigil in central Texas in the same way that they always respond to bad news — by unleashing personal attacks and smears against her,” Wilson said in a statement released Wednesday.

  • Jude

    Mark the Sane and Sensible,

    We’re all Americans. We share common values. We can respect one another. “Libbie puke” isn’t a moniker which I believe civil Americans should keep at the ready to use upon the slightest challenge to their ideology. I think sounds angry and immature…hardly sensible in my view. That said, I think people should, indeed, work hard for themselves and pull themselves up by the bootstraps. I also believe that morally decent domestic policy is important to provide protection of hard-working American people’s rights. Watch closely, for the charlatan who has been telling you he’s laissez faire has been picking your pocket as well as mine, while “leveling the world’s playing field” with the pushing of CAFTA and an all-too unregulated outsourcing of our jobs to India and China, et al…so those “pantywaists” in Bangalore can have Alabama Joe Six-Pack’s job.

  • MCH

    Anthony,

    You are tremendously astute for only 16 years old. Have you any political ambitions?

  • Effendi

    Lord help us if he does!!

    You may be “Astute” Anthony but we already have enough monkey hear monkey repeaters like yourself in this country.

    Your “Insane” rant come directly from the corrupt minds and websites of roves minions.

    What’s your problem with a mother who lost her son? What if you were in his position and dies, If YOUR mother decided to take a stand what If I called her an “Insane (negative whatever)” How would that make YOU feel?

    And to make your asinine suggestion that because he didn’t spend his entire life with his mother somehow she doesn’t have the right to protest his killing?

    It’s really sad that your side has absolutely ZERO truth to attack this woman with so you do the only thing you know how to do, attempt to smear her with rubbish like the suggestion that somehow the rights “Political Enemies” have conspired to pay her to take a stand!!

    You say in your young brilliance that, You haven’t met many Sheehan supporters because there aren’t any”, well crawl out from under that flat red state rock you live under and meet the rest of America.

    I have to agree with MCH about one thing, you are about that age to make a political decision. I strongly suggest you head to your nearest recruiting station and give your own dear mother a chance to feel like Cindy Sheehan.

    Maybe after you find out firsthand that things are the way Faux news reports them, you will still feel like disrespecting Casey’s Mom!!

    Scott!!

  • Mark the Sane and Sensible

    Jude, there is a culture war in this country for the heart and soul of America and I am a front-line warrior. I post to blogs and I am active in my local political scene. My mission is to attack liberals and liberal philosophy at every opportunity because liberalism is truly a mental disorder. Just talk to a liberal for any stretch of time. They are deluded and riddled with contradictions. Any philosophy that thinks its OK to redistribute wealth and wants people to work for the good of a collective is sick, sick, sick. There are two kinds of Americans. Us and Them. Until “Them” are defeated, we (“Us”) will not rest.

    I am sane and sensible to those that view America exactly as I do… the America that used to exist prior to the 1960s, the decade that America started going to shit. Prior to the 1960s, America was a great place to live. Everyone knew their place and there was order in society. I wouldn’t expect anyone of another stripe to see things that way, but that’s how I think. If you don’t like it, that’s just too bad. My forefathers came to this country with nothing. They asked for nothing when they arrived here and worked hard and prospered. They didn’t whine for special treatment or tax payer subsidized programs to get them through life. They learned English readily. Now that America is rapidly sliding into a Third World shithole, the idea of immigration is something entirely different.

    Cindy Sheehan is a traitor and an ingrate using her son’s death to promote her anti-American agenda. She doesn’t know that without sacrifice, there can be no freedom. Without freedom, there can be no America. She wants it both ways and she can’t have it. She is a typically selfish and self-absorbed baby boomer. It’s all about Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. I am sorry to say that as a baby boomer, my generation for the most part disgusts me. Cindy Sheehan and other opportunists like her disgust me.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>You made a declaratory statement that John911’s statement was “fundamentally true” – – while you should have said you believed it to be true. Something isn’t “true” for everyone just because you say it is.< <

    Let me quote his statment for you again.

    "The far right are a powerful minority, but they are a minority. The people you've offended are conservative Democrats, Republicans and Independents. Dismissing their concerns tipped the balance. Don't believe it? The Democrats do, which is why the news is full of their attempts to sway these voters back."

    Now, can you read that and disagree with it? Keep in mind that you will be contradicting every single political analyst on the right and the left if you disagree. John stated something totally obvious and agreed on by general consensus regardless of political allegiance. If you're going to disagree you need to do more than just throw an insult at him - you need to explain why.

    >>You made up a sentence about me “objecting to John911 directing his statement at too broad an audience,” …and I never said anything of the kind. I said I thought he was debating like a 3rd grader.<<

    You didn’t say what about his statement was like the debate of a third grader, so I latched onto what seemed to be the weakest point and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were complaining that he was being overly general. If you had some other argument, why not actually express it instead of making us guess? Or was comparing him to a 3rd grader just a pointless insult?

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Re: 681.

    Mark, stop being so fair and sensible. Can’t you see how out of place you are in this discussion?

    Dave

  • IgnatiusReilly

    “Prior to the 1960s, America was a great place to live. Everyone knew their place and there was order in society.”

    Go back to your klan rally. Your sheet is showing

  • Mark the Sane and Sensible

    Your kneejerk yet predictable response is noted, ignatius. In case you weren’t around prior to the 1960s, it was a time when the true defintions between MAJORITY and MINORITY were honored and not bastardized as they are today. Now the minority has as much power as the majority, which is counter to common sense. The only way for a minority to become a majority is by increasing their numbers and exceed the total of the set that comprises the majority. That’s simple math, but too many ACLU attorneys and bleeding heart politicians told us that simple math isn’t good enough. That’s when it started going to shit, when 10 per cent suddently became equal to 75 per cent. How that comports to mathematical principle is just mind boggling.

  • http://www.kolehardfacts.blogspot.com Mike Kole

    Majority rule? Count me out. That’s mob rule for those who don’t care to dress up the naked truth.

    A just system protects the rights of the smallest minority- the individual.

    So, to follow your train of thought, America starting going down the tubes about 60 years earlier than your estimate, for the very reasons you advocate for.

  • MCH

    “You know its ironic that military men such as yourself MCH and myself get browbeaten for coming to the conclusions we have based on the facts we have seen.”
    – Effendi, comment #538

    So true, Scott, so true. What I’ve experienced here on BC for over a year is that the veterans who support the invasion of Iraq get thanked for their military service by the Chickenhawks; while those of us opposed to the attack get called “a commie,” “a pinko” or “a f—ing pacifist” (among other things), and have our service dragged through the mud.

    There is a double standard in effect here. It’s perfectly acceptable, actually applauded, for a vet to state his military experience to support their argument for the war; but if you take a stand against it, you get accused of weilding your service as some sort of credential that makes you more qualified to address the issue.

    I must say that although SFC Ski and I are on opposite sides of the fence on this matter, he was always respectful in his dialogue.

    The only BC editor to thank me for my service has been Eric Berlin, which I appreciate.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining, just expressing what I’ve experienced. I take a lot more heat (and deservedly) than fellow squid Gonzo Marx, which is fine. Gonzo is more well-rounded and knowledegable than I, and he verbalizes the anti-war message much more eloquently than I. But I will continue pointing out the hypocrisy of the keyboard patriots as long as this bloodbath in Iraq continues.

    Actually, I’ve received enough expressions of gratitude from the combat vets I profile in my weekly column to last 2 lifetimes.

    – MCH (E.O.’s favorite one-trick Chickenhawk pony)

  • http://iddybud.blogspot.com Jude

    Mark the Sane and Sensible,

    If two contend together take not the part of either unconstrained; and be not obstinate in your own Opinion, in Things indifferent be of the Major Side.

    This was the 69th rule of George Washington’s Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior.

    In America, fewer and fewer decent and civil people are choosing to remain “indifferent” on their opinion about the Iraq war. They may not think in lockstep with Cindy Sheehan, whom they understand is no politician or diplomat, but they suppor her in her efforts to bring about questions regarding the ends and an examination of the means of the Iraq war. There is a majority of peopel in thi snation who are becoming very confused and doubtful, and Cindy represents one of those people. She causes them to no longer remain indifferent.

    Americans are free to participate in their government. If you are sane and sensible, I can’t imagine you’d go against the advice of George Washington himself.

    We all know that, when the public turns against this war, their representatives must respond or face political defeat come next election.

    You can cuss all you like about “majority” and “minority”, but the Founding Fathers built our beautiful system on the predication that the minority, and their free speech, would not be crushed under heavy rule.

    Some of you are so afraid to let these people have their say that you wield wildly deragatory language against those who speak their conscience.

    If you are confident about your case, speak it plainly. Spinning into mini-manifestos of your blanket ideology won’t get you very far, because it’s changing teh subject.

    The subject is Cindy Sheehan and those who are tring to tear her apart in the hopes that the public will not listen to her.

  • Mark the Sane and Sensible

    Jude: with all due respect, George Washington lived in an era without terrorists flying jets into skyscrapers, pedophiles stalking children on the internet, and homosexuals demanding marriage rights.

    To wit: GW’s little manifesto is an anachronism.

    There is a clear difference between recognizing a minority and automatically putting them on the exact representational plane with the majority. This has morphed into a sickening trend where one person complaining about a Christmas display can ruin it for the majority because it “offends” them. I need only cite the Newdow case before the Supreme Court as to how insane things have become in this country. Now every freak voice is being considered with grave importance. Whatever happened to hearing “no” and accepting it? This is where your Constitution has been bastardized by the the pinko bastards running the ACLU because they, too, hate America and its traditions. It’s also due in part to this self-absorbed ME ME ME baby boomer preoccupation that all individual needs should be of paramount concern to the government to the point where those needs have to be met via official legislation. When did we develop such needy and dependent Americans? Whatever happened to indivualism and taking care of your own needs and ignoring the government? The government should not be a benevolent religious group dispensing handouts to people who can’t figure out how to be happy on their own!!

    The people that are against the Iraq War have the answers at their disposal. Have they read the DoD report REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES, the so-called neo-con manifesto for the future ? The whole plan for the ME is outlined right there, but people are too lazy to investigate this and inform themselves. Most people are lazy sows sitting on their barcaloungers eating Doritos waiting to be told what to think and say. So they watch CNN or Fox and think they are informed and educated. TV news is entertainment but they don’t know it because they are dumb, dumb, dumb! So they hear these talking heads bash Bush and they jump on the bandwagon. Cindy Sheehan is one of these uninformed useful idiots of the left who is just like the rest of them.

    “If you are confident about your case, speak it plainly. Spinning into mini-manifestos of your blanket ideology won’t get you very far, because it’s changing teh subject.”

    I couldn’t be more plain and direct. Perhaps the issue here is that what I’m saying is not what you want to hear.

  • Effendi

    To Mark, American Coward and Traitor.

    >>My mission is to attack liberals and liberal philosophy at every opportunity because liberalism is truly a mental disorder.< <

    Bring it on, You are the biggest problem with America. You are much more of a threat than any Arab living in a Cave. You threaten my children and the American way of Life.

    You say Liberalism is a mental disorder, I say religious fascist control is a mental order. learn to control yourself before you come trying to control me and my way of thinking. I'm sure you have had no military career, I can tell by your wild chicken hawk rantings. You respect no one but your self and insist on America being YOUR way and conforming to your rules. Guess what it will not be long until us NORMAL freedom loving Americans get tired of your constant drive to control us and we hunt you down and Kill you. You will pray for the days when the only enemies you had were the boogeymen in caves in the mountains. You will not be safe to spread your lies and control drivel to the American masses. You want a war...you got it. One of us is trained with weapons and one of us runs their fat mouth. Bring it on American Traitor.

    >>Just talk to a liberal for any stretch of time. They are deluded and riddled with contradictions.< <

    Yea maybe all that is true but they Live and Let live, YOU on the other hand want to control how I think and what I can do or not do, that makes YOU my enemy!!

    >>Any philosophy that thinks its OK to redistribute wealth and wants people to work for the good of a collective is sick, sick, sick.< <

    As opposed to your idea of controlling the thoughts and actions of others.

    You CANNOT and MAY NOT control what I think and how I act. That is NOT the America I grew up in and it will NOT be the America my children and grandchildren grow up in.

    >>There are two kinds of Americans. Us and Them. Until “Them” are defeated, we (“Us”) will not rest.< <

    Then you will rest in your grave American Traitor, because I will ensure the security and safety of future generations of free thinking Americans by removing your sick mind and negative influence of religious control from where my children may be forced to hear it. You paid to train me, So I will use my experience to keep America free and clear of the pathetic control you try to wield.

    I will NOT allow you to corrupt a whole new generation of Americans.

    >>I am sane and sensible to those that view America exactly as I do… < <

    And what about the rest that have a different experience?

    You are selfish and pathetic. Your suggestion is that you are sane and sensible to ONLY those who have the EXACT same experience as you do in America shows your level of idiocy. What makes America great is the fact that we all ARE different. There might be a few sickos just like you that share your warped version of future control of America but I assure you one thing. You will NOT SUCCEED. There are many more of US that choose to make our own decisions and will NOT allow your fascist control in our lives. You think that you can destroy free thinking in America?....lol

    One of us is in for a rude Awakening. So continue the tough "Rambo" drivel from behind your computer but don't bring your diarrhea "Real Time" because the America I KNOW will Not allow you to make our choices for us

    Sit down and learn to control yourself, when you have truly learned that you will understand that you do not have the right or ability to control others. In the meantime you better be careful how much you run your jaw and just exactly who you choose as Enemies, there are some of us that live next door to you that you have no clue about but shop at the Same Safeway and buy gas at the same AM/PM as you do. We don't live in caves in the mountains and we ARE on the other side of the wall from your brave..brave keyboard!!

    >>Cindy Sheehan is a traitor and an ingrate using her son’s death to promote her anti-American agenda.< <

    Have you served?
    other than your typed diarrhea?

    She has a right to express her opinion, this is America, other than talking trash on a computer, what have YOU done to make America a better place to live?

    >>She doesn’t know that without sacrifice, there can be no freedom. Without freedom, there can be no America. She wants it both ways and she can’t have it. She is a typically selfish and self-absorbed baby boomer.< <

    She gave up her son, you gave up a foul smell....

    >>It’s all about Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. I am sorry to say that as a baby boomer, my generation for the most part disgusts me.< <

    You are not the America I know and Love, you need to live somewhere else where they control everything you hear, read or say, you do not deserve America.

    >>Cindy Sheehan and other opportunists like her disgust me.<<

    The feeling is mutual, I would and do support Cindy Sheehan before I would support an American Traitor as yourself.

    You are not worthy of calling yourself an American and I would be happy to explain my feelings to you in person Traitor…there WILL come a day when you think you are brave enough to spout your drivel in public not hiding behind a keyboard. You will not look me in the eye and disrespect my mother and walk away.

    Scott!!

  • Mark the Sane and Sensible

    re: post 695

    “I say religious fascist control is a mental order.”

    As an atheist, I agree.

    “Have you served?”

    Time? No, I have never been convicted of a crime. I’ve never even received a speeding ticket.

    Really, “Scott,” if that is your name, (I’ll bet it’s probably Jugdish or Abdul) you acribe too much power to one person. I have no means to control anyone, so why all this paranoid raving? Is that tin foil hat of yours becoming uncomfortable?

    And of course, the conceit that you have to have served in the military to have an opinion on warfare is just laughable.

  • Effendi

    Good One “Sane and “Sensible”…you are more predictable than the sunrise…lol

    >>Really, “Scott,” if that is your name, (I’ll bet it’s probably Jugdish or Abdul)< <

    actually my pen name is "Effendi" but this little factor seemed to throw off the mental midgets before you so I use my "regular name" which is STILL too much for you. it's NEVER the message it's always the messenger.

    You may call me Mohamed, Ahmed, George Bush, whatever name makes you tremble or switch the tact, a name is only a name, what you better keep in mind is that I am an AMERICAN SOLDIER and I am your neighbor and that you have deemed me the enemy, "liberalism is a sickness"..remember?

    All of you right-wing nutz use the same tactics and the same level of stupidity, STOP already it only makes you look silly and weak. Argue the ISSUE ...if you can.

    >>you acribe too much power to one person. I have no means to control anyone, so why all this paranoid raving? Is that tin foil hat of yours becoming uncomfortable?<<

    I’m not the one making the INSANE comment of , “I am sane and sensible to those that view America exactly as I do”. I am not the one insisting that it’s MY way or the Highway, let’s see your exact words were, “There are two kinds of Americans. Us and Them. Until “Them” are defeated, we (“Us”) will not rest.<<

    Well guess what, I carry a GUN and I am one of them…..rest easy…lol

    Scott, Mohamed, Ahmed, Peter, Paul, George, Your Neighbor!!

  • Effendi

    >>And of course, the conceit that you have to have served in the military to have an opinion on warfare is just laughable.<<

    Spoken by someone who never served.
    You may be respected by others who do not know but I have served and you have not so I can never respect your desire to send young troops into combat when you have never been brave enough to step up yourself.

    ALL of you with this war torn attitude seem to have the common thread of cowardice between you. You seek deferments for this reason or that, you have an ingrown toenail or you sat next to a queer kid in school but the bottom line is you were never THERE.

    You ALL have lofty excuses as to why YOU were too important to serve, then you turn around and TO A MAN claim that serving has nothing to do with the decision to send another man to his death in combat.

    I have NEVER heard an American military man suggest that such a decision be left to someone who has never been there or done that, it is always an empty comment made by someone who found an excuse not to serve themselves.

    I have a problem with a bunch of executives ordering men into battle so easily who were never men enough to go themselves.

    You may try all you want, to suggest it has no bearing but IT DOES.

    Scott!!

  • Effendi

    .
    Last but not least….

    It somehow does not surprise me that some of you spew the vitriol of hate you spew towards you fellow more liberal minded Americans, we have an INSANE Madman at the helm and it has become acceptable to act as irresponsible as he does.

    Review the following rantings of an Insane Dictator and you will understand why logical thinking America is forced to respond to the rantings of his mad minions…

    http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7267.shtml

    While President George W. Bush travels around the country in a last-ditch effort to sell his Iraq war, White House aides scramble frantically behind the scenes to hide the dark mood of an increasingly angry leader who unleashes obscenity-filled outbursts at anyone who dares disagree with him.
    “I’m not meeting with that goddamned bitch,” Bush screamed at aides who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother whose son died in Iraq. “She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!”

    Bush, administration aides confide, frequently explodes into tirades over those who protest the war, calling them “motherfucking traitors.” He reportedly was so upset over Veterans of Foreign Wars members who wore “bullshit protectors” over their ears during his speech to their annual convention that he told aides to “tell those VFW assholes that I’ll never speak to them again is they can’t keep their members under control.”

    White House insiders say Bush is growing increasingly bitter over mounting opposition to his war in Iraq. Polls show a vast majority of Americans now believe the war was a mistake and most doubt the President’s honesty.

    “Who gives a flying fuck what the polls say,” he screamed at a recent strategy meeting. “I’m the President and I’ll do whatever I goddamned please. They don’t know shit.”

    Bush, whiles setting up for a photo op for signing the recent CAFTA bill, flipped an extended middle finger at the camera before going live. Aides say the President often “flips the bird” to show his displeasure and tells aides who disagree with him to “go to hell” or to “go fuck yourself.”

    Bush’s behavior, according to prominent Washington psychiatrist, Dr. Justin Frank, author of “Bush on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President,” is all too typical of an alcohol-abusing bully who is ruled by fear.

    To see that fear emerges, Dr. Frank says, all one has to do is confront the President. “To actually directly confront him in a clear way, to bring him out, so you would really see the bully, and you would also see the fear,” he says.

    Dr. Frank, in his book, speculates that Bush, an alcoholic who brags that he gave up booze without help from groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, may be drinking again.

    “Two questions that the press seems particularly determined to ignore have hung silently in the air since before Bush took office,” Dr. Frank says. “Is he still drinking? And if not, is he impaired by all the years he did spend drinking? Both questions need to be addressed in any serious assessment of his psychological state.”

    Last year, Capitol Hill Blue learned the White House physician prescribed anti-depressant drugs for the President to control what aides called “violent mood swings.” As Dr. Frank also notes: