Home / Preparing for the Coming Disaster In Iraq: Obama – “Out by 31 August 2010”

Preparing for the Coming Disaster In Iraq: Obama – “Out by 31 August 2010”

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I normally stay away from subjects like Iraq. To put it bluntly, it wasn't my war. It wasn't fought for my benefit. And this article is not meant to justify the actions of previous American administrations in attacking that unfortunate country over the last 18 years.

But the sitting American president, Barack Hussein (the Blessed of Hussein) Obama, has decided to pull out American troops from that nation by 31 August 2010. According to David Eshel, writing of "The Inevitable Fate of a Post-America Iraq,"

During his whirlwind stopover in Baghdad, last Thursday, U.S. President Barack Obama has declared that Iraqis "must take responsibility for their country". He predicted the next 18 months would be trying, as American troops start to leave a country still facing security threats and political problems. "They (the Iraqis) have got to make political accommodations," Mr Obama said. "They're going to have to decide that they want to resolve their differences through constitutional means and legal means."

In short he said, "Boys, on 1 September 2010, you're on your own. Good luck and good riddance G-d speed to you – we're outta here!" David Eshel's article is all about the consequences of what the United States has decided to do — cut and run.

A few highlights:

Any decent strategic analyst, looking into the Middle East future, must ask: "what if the other side won't cooperate?" What about al-Qaeda and its Salafi-Wahabi support, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, the Quds force, Hezbollah from Lebanon and the intelligence services of Tehran and Damascus, will they ignore this rare opportunity to act?

According to the article, Obama appears to believe that by that magical date of 31 August 2010, Iraq's own forces should be able to control their own country. But, at least as Eshel puts it, any experienced military professional will tell you that to train such a force from scratch in just 18 months is either totally shortsighted or based on sheer ignorance of existing facts in this unpredictable region. The article then proceeds to demolish the Obama strategy. But in the end, that is not my problem – that is your problem as Americans. I suggest you read this article over and cogitate a bit over it.

As an Israeli, my concern is what happens along the way, particularly when Iran decides to take over a hefty portion of Iraq at the expense of the Saudi thugdom. Persian empire building is nothing new, and if backed up by the possible threat of nuclear weapons, it can get rather nerve-wracking – especially if our own so-called "government" here decides not to attack Iran.

Of course, Americans will be concerned to have exit points from Iraq. It doesn't appear that way now, but it may well transpire that the safest exit route for American troops out of Iraq is west through the northern edge of the Arabian desert through Jordan (Eastern Mandate Palestine), and then through Israel.

For me, that's where all this gets very touchy. "Through Israel" means through Judea and Samaria, where I live. And it just happens that the Americans will be trying (as they have since 1970) to shove an Arab terror state down our throats, the second Arab state to be erected in land set aside in 1920 for a Jewish state.

So, while the war in Iraq really was not our concern (not too much, anyway), the exit of American troops from the region is.

What a convenience it would be if, just in time, 100,000 American troops show up, tasked with "helping" the Israeli government expel folks like me from our homes?

It's things like this that keep me interested in being able to shoot straight. I have this nasty feeling that if I do have to shoot a weapon, it won't be at Arabs or Israelis — it will be at Americans. If that is the case, I better damned well be able to shoot straight.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • “…any experienced military professional will tell you that to train such a force from scratch in just 18 months is either totally shortsighted or based on sheer ignorance of existing facts in this unpredictable region.

    From scratch?!? Haven’t we been training the Iraqis to run their own military and police affairs since 2003/4 (or so the Bush administration claimed)?

  • …it may well transpire that the safest exit route for American troops out of Iraq is west through the northern edge of the Arabian desert through Jordan…

    Or by those big metal things with wings that make loud roaring noises and go flying through the air.

  • Comment #1: It’s one thing when back-up (the Americans) are just a phone call away on the walkie-talkie, DD. It’s quite another when you are on your own.

    Comment #2: That assumes unquestioned air and naval superiority, DD. That is not a given.

  • RJ

    Ruvy:

    Your violent anti-Americanism is frankly disturbing, as well as baffling. The US is pretty much the only country on the planet with a government that is staunchly pro-Israel (other than Israel itself, of course). Yet, for some bizarre reason, you, an Israeli citizen, seem to reserve the majority of your venom for the United States, which also happens to be your former home.

    I’m not sure what it is you want from us. We send you billions of dollars a year in aid (you’re welcome), most of which goes to your military. We do our best to cover your ass at the United Nations (like, when you invade your neighbors), which often harms our relations with the rest of the world. Your country sends spies against us, and yet most of our political class still parrots the line that your country is one of our closest allies.

    If you had your way, Ruvy, what would you have the United States do? Increase aid to Israel ten-fold while openly supporting the ethnic cleansing of all Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza? A preemptive US strike on Iran with nuclear weapons? The US Congress relocating the Capitol Building to Tel Aviv? What?

  • RJ

    BTW, who did you vote for in the recent election, Ruvy? Was it Avigdor Lieberman of Yisrael Beiteinu?

  • RJ,

    We’ve been over this ground before, you and I.

    First of all, I voted for the National Union Party. It was the only party I could vote for in good conscience, being the only party that unequivocally opposed a second Arab state being erected on the land reserved for a Jewish one. Everybody else – and I do mean everybody else – either was for such an Arab state being erected (meaning I would get evicted from my home, if the program were to be successful), or equivocated about its creation.

    Lots of people who would have normally voted for this party were persuaded by the logic of voting, not their conscience, which is what I did, but for voting for the lesser of two evils – Avigdor Lieberman or Binyamin Netanyahu. You generally benefit by following your conscience, RJ, as I do. You generally get screwed over when you do the “practical” thing. But a concept like this is very hard to get across, even to people who should know better. In real terms, the portion of the voting population that agrees with me is about 35 to 40% of the population, minimally.

    Russia Yisrael Beitenu, the political party of Avigdor Lieberman, is mostly a Russian immigrants’ political party whose real agenda, in the end, is to extend Russian influence here. The Russian policy is to use its “expatriates” to extend its influence overseas. Russia Yisrael Beitenu works on three levels: the visible level where its leader is the Israeli “nationalist” taking the heat off the prime minister; the level where it is the extension of the Kadima party, where it really has policies more akin to those of Tzipi Livni and thus manages to get funding from them under the table; the third undercover level, where they work to extend Russian influence and control here. I am not at liberty to reveal sources on that one, not just yet.

    Mow to get to your initial complaints.

    Your violent anti-Americanism is frankly disturbing, as well as baffling. The US is pretty much the only country on the planet with a government that is staunchly pro-Israel (other than Israel itself, of course). Yet, for some bizarre reason, you, an Israeli citizen, seem to reserve the majority of your venom for the United States, which also happens to be your former home.

    Have you read nothing of what I’ve written? Have you ignored everything except that which expresses hostility to your government? I surely thought you were more intelligent than that!

    I’m not sure what it is you want from us. We send you billions of dollars a year in aid (you’re welcome), most of which goes to your military. We do our best to cover your ass at the United Nations (like, when you invade your neighbors), which often harms our relations with the rest of the world. Your country sends spies against us, and yet most of our political class still parrots the line that your country is one of our closest allies.

    First of all, I do not want anything from you!

    on addition, as I told Baronius elsewhere, I do not want to see America go down – though that is what I’m seeing. I’d like to see America do the right thing – back our sovereignty over all of the Land of Israel. But since there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of that happening, I prefer you just stay our of our affairs. At least that way, you do not come to harm. But your government will not do that either, and has refused to really back this country since its inception. That is a hard truth for me to swallow – remember where I was born? I was once an American and proud of it.

    No more. I’m being painfully honest with you as well as with myself. I do not like to write what I do. But to lie to you does me no good at all.

    Now what do I mean by refusing to back this country?

    As to the American “support” of Israel, let the record speak for itself: The American government has made itself our enemy over a 74 year period of time;
    1. refusing to take in refugees from Europe;
    2. refusing to bomb concentration camps – even after the invasion of Normandy!;
    3. embargoing arms to Mandate Palestine after World War II;
    4. embargoing arms to the State of Israel;
    5. forcing the Israeli army to withdraw from el-Arish in 1949;
    6. threatening Israel that they would be all alone if they attacked Egypt in 1967;
    7. passing information to the Egyptians as to Israeli tank movements in the Sinai – (the USS Liberty);
    8. setting up a task force to attempt to force Israel back out of the Sinai in 1967 (I know soldiers in the American Army who were part of that task force);
    9. bullying Israel into not attacking first in 1973;
    10. fucking her over with the arms they promised to replace in the Yom Kippur War, (until Defense Sec’ty Schlesinger forced the issue);
    11. forcing Israel to withdraw from el-Quneitra in 1973….I can continue reciting betrayal after betrayal after betrayal up until the last week or so.

    Let’s add a couple of items to the above list, so you get a fuller picture.

    In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon to get rid of the persistent terror attacks of the PLO. Upon reaching Beirut, UPON THE INTERVENTION OF RONALD REAGAN the IDF allowed terrorist Yasser Arafat to escape to Tunisia – only to bring the kid-fucker back to Israel UNDER THE PRESSURE OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION as the Arab dictator who was to run the “Palestinian Authority” under the “Oslo Accords” in 1993.

    So, in both instances, we had YOUR government allowing a known terrorist and murderer of Americans to escape, and then brought to power where he could – and did – perpetrate terror attacks upon my people.

    Now, let’s get this very clear in you mind – while the United States government did not actually engage in the terrorist actions that Yasser Arafat perpetrated here over many years – YOUR government was the enabler of this son of a bitch – just like the British were the enablers of the Arab murderer Amin el-Husseini.

    Finally, let’s talk about that billions of dollars a year in aid, most of which goes to your military. That billions of dollars does not leave the United States. It’s a credit chit for our government to spend in the States. And to be blunt with you, a lot of the stuff, we make, like the assault rifles, are superior to what you guys make. In addition to that, all the uniforms and boots our government is forced to buy in the States puts Israeli workers out of jobs. Most of the equipment we buy makes us dependent on you for our arms.

    Is that what you call the relationship of alliance or friendship? If so, you are one exploitative asshole.

    Now it’s awful nice if I hold your coat for you while you beat the shit out of the local bully on the street, RJ. But what if I WANT the local bully to beat the shit out of you? You’re SOL.

    That is the situation of the US with respect to us. If we depend on you, then we have to take it on the chin when YOU decide we should. And your government has been deciding we should take it on the chin for the last 62 years.

    Mind you, RJ. I didn’t say anything about Americans generally – I said your government. And your government, particularly your State Department, is very different from the lot of you – who generally admire us, and whom we generally respect. And don’t pull this “we the people” shit on me. Your talking to someone who has been an AMERICAN political activist since before, you were born. There hasn’t been any “we the people” in your country for over a century. You have a political and cultural elite ruling over you that sickens any normal human being.

    If I was truly “anti-American” I wouldn’t write on this site. Communicating with you would disgust me. I’d be on European sites, where I could trash you all day long, and have a huge “amen corner” to back me up.

    Think about that, RJ.

  • Ruvy,

    Have you considered writing for the Israeli, English-edition papers? Your command of English certainly ranks among the top, though all Israelis speak fluent English. Would it be difficult for you to get in? Your Hebrew can’t be as fluent as English.

  • Roger, thank you for your kind words. There are all sorts of places that will take my writing – for free. So long as the shekels I earn stays in their pockets, my writing is welcome. But consider the Jerusalem Post for just a second. All of its writers are native-born English speakers with a command of the English language equal to mine – if not better.

    A whole stack of them have something in addition that I do not have – a degree in journalism. In this document-conscious country, that degree can count for a whole lot. Don’t believe me? There a bunch of journalists who write here, too. But not too often – they like to get paid and this is all volunteer work – from the Comments Editor to the Politics Editor to the movie reviewer….

  • Well, you can still submit your blogsite and they may feature it, if not in its totality than at least in part. It’s one way to get the exposure. And your point of view, though too radical to my taste, seems to be unique and well-articulated to say the least.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, I thought the Iraq War was a good idea from day one, and I still do. But at some point we’ve got to start pulling troops out. I don’t think that mid-2010 is rash. We have been training their forces for years, and have rebuilt a lot of their infrastructure. The violence has subsided. If Iraq can’t maintain a democracy by 2010, they probably won’t be able to by 2011.

    We should maintain some troops there for continued training and coordination of operations. I don’t know if Obama is planning to.

  • Baronius,

    I’m not concerned so much about the rectitude of this war. I’m concerned with how, now that they are in Iraq, American troops get out of there.

  • “Rectitude” is a good term.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, I understand your main concern. (I don’t think it’s realistic, but hey, no one’s ever attacked me with a bulldozer, so maybe my guard is down.) But you quoted from Eshel’s article uncritically, so you clearly think there’s something to it.

  • “to train such a force from scratch in just 18 months is either totally shortsighted or based on sheer ignorance of existing facts in this unpredictable region”

    Just read bits and pieces, Ruvy. Why should it be “from scratch”? We’ve been there nearly seven years, dammit? Are you suggesting no progress has been made at all?

    Then lay it all on the doorsteps of Bush Jr. and Rumsfeld, the great strategois, rather than on Obama. This whole thing, in spite of what Baronius is saying, was one gargantual fiasco. We had never anticipated the problems were were going to run into, and consequently, invaded their whole goddamn country without any forethought. And it’s biting us now in the arse.

  • Roger, when you learn how to use an M16, after a number of theoretical lectures and some practice taking apart and putting together the rifle, they have you lay prone ion the ground and shoot at a target.

    When the gun jams (M16’s often jam), you lay the weapon on the ground facing the target, raise your hand and wait for the instructor to either unjam the gun or show you how to unjam the gun. And if you do not get lots of practice at it, you pray you remember how.

    THAT’S TRAINING!

    On the battlefield, when the gun jams, there is no instructor. Either you know what to do in a split second – or you die.

    THAT’S WHEN THE TRAINING IS OVER!

    On 1 September 2010, the American trained Iraqi forces are on their own. The trainers will have gone. It is irrelevant to me whether the Iraqis get slaughtered or not, or whether the fault for such slaughter, if it occurs, lies on Bush’s head or on Obama’s.

    That’s your problem. My problem is the exit route of the American soldiers, and if it goes through Jordan or not. If the Iranians and others move in on Iraq like a goose to be slaughtered, the safest route out will be west, driving as fast as the Americans can, peddle to the metal, with air cover flying west as well, plowing the road, if it proves necessary. Hence, the article.

  • Personally, Ruvy, I think when US leaves, Iraq won’t remain a democracy. Remember the red carpet treatment they gave to Ahmadinejad about two years ago when he visited them; and not security measures supposedly. Well, things will get back to “normal.”

  • MAOZ

    Did Roger actually write “… all Israelis speak fluent English.”? (#7)

    Wow. I guess his definition of “all Israelis” must be a lot more restrictive than mine….

  • Well, that was my impression, Maoz, the last time I was there – early sixties. English was one of the required subjects in high school.

    Have things changed since?

  • Roger, you’ve never dealt with my two former landlords, my family doctor, most bus drivers, most bureaucrats here, not to mention the screaming meemies at MaHane Yehuda, the big shouk in J-lem. Things have changed an awful lot since the early sixties.

    If you do ever decide to arise from Christian County, KY, and stop, by, you will need to brush up on your Hebrew.

    And life here ain’t cheap like it used to was, either (unless you’re Jewish – then your life is cheap)….

  • I still have relatives, Ruvy, in Tel Aviv. Right now, though, I can’t even afford the plane ticket.

  • Ultimately, this article is about foreign interference in our affairs, particularly with respect to Judea and Samaria.

    Let’s contrast the attitudes of the Arab terrorist pigs who rule from Gaza and Ramallah and how it tallies with how Arabs demonstrate their constant intent to murder Jews – with the idiotic attitudes of the American administration.

    The Arab pigs in Gaza and Ramallah view the idea that they should recognize Israel as a Jewish state as a “provocation”. So provoked are these Arabs that one of them from southern Hebron concentrated his attention on murdering Jewish children in Beit Haggai. Fortunately, the SOB was killed before he succeeded. Similarly, an Arab ran over two policemen at Hizmeh, at the edge of Jerusalem’s northeast exit to Samaria, while other Arabs threw firebombs at Jews in Beit El, a number of klicks north of there.

    According to the American administration, we are supposed to live side by side “in peace” with terror states that aid and abet such constant, daily and continuing efforts to murder off Jews, and complete what Hitler started. I find it astounding that any man (or woman) in their right mind could demand such a thing – unless he knew and understood that such a solution would only result in a bloodbath of Jews in this country, and this was his goal.

    To be blunt, that is what I believe the American administration has in mind here, and what it is they are planning.

    So, again, I reiterate that it is necessary to murder off the terrorist leadership in both Gaza, and Judea and Samaria so that the impetus for Arab terror will be lacking, and it is necessary to annex all this land to Israel, allowing Arabs autonomy within their own communities, while we administer the territory as a whole. Twenty-two Arabs states is enough, especially when one of them, Jordan, already exists on land set aside for Jewish settlement.

    American opinion must be firmly ignored and its efforts to ruin this nation must be firmly stopped – before a terrible bloodbath does break out. For in such a bloodbath, Arabs and Americans will be victims, not Jews.

  • jamie

    SCREW ISRAEL, like you said that’s not my war. you have problems with the arab nations? tough shit! you help create these terrorists with your own concentration camps so don’t blame the U.S. for not doing enough for you. american service people die daily to protect your ass and you get billions in u.s. aid so SFTU!

  • Jamie,

    As soon as we get rid of the puppets in Jerusalem who bow to stone gods on the Potomac, you won’t see my writing comments or articles on Israel here on Blogcritics. As soon as we Israelis can conduct our own foreign policy WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE UNITED STATES, I will be able to write about things here I really enjoy, like book reviews, science, religion and philosophy, and I can get off that uncomfortable hobby horse, politics.

    Until, then, Jamie, TOUGH SHIT! You’re stuck with me here, and you’re stuck with me writing about Israel and the threats to our lives and security we endure at the hands of the United States government. As long as your government tries to fuck us over, you will hear about it from me. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER! So if you want to get mad, get mad. I don’t give a damn. I’ll rub your nose in the truth, as shitty as it is, and rub your nose in the facts, as ugly as they are, and enjoy doing it.

  • Ruvy, your grasp of history is as subjective and careless as your grasp of html.

    I can’t really do much about the former except point out the worst errors produced by your fixed knowledge based “thinking”, such as the laughable statement that “No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER!”, which is simply untrue and a really quite offensive display of arrogance on your part.

    Once again I find myself bitterly amused by the cruel irony that you appear to have more and more in common with the attitudes, beliefs, methods and illogical thinking displayed by your enemies.

    As to your html, I want you to use the preview button BEFORE posting any more comments you make that includes any html at all.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER!”

    you know that’s completely false, right?

    that said, how many jews have died to keep americans safe? you tell me.

    how much shit is ruvy full of?

  • “No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER!”

    you know that’s completely false, right?

    No, zing, I know that is the bitter truth. Americans didn’t go to fight Hitler because they gave a damn about Jews – they fought Hitler because Hitler constituted a threat to the United States.

    On occasion, the United States protested the barbaric treatment of Jews by Russians or Arabs. But soldiers were never sent to protect Jews or Jewish property. That’s a fact, dude, whether you like it or not.

    how many Jews have died to keep Americans safe? you tell me.

    I don’t know the exact numbers, zing, but all those Jews who died in the Revolutionary War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam all died to keep Americans safe. You can add Desert Storm and the Iraq war if you think it’s relevant, but frankly, those were imperial adventures your government indulged in, wasting your money. In any event, I’ll let you look up the numbers. You can find these numbers at the website of the Jewish Veterans of Foreign Wars, if it matters to you.

    To be blunt with you, MY concern is how many Jews died to protect Jewish lives. It’s time we stopped wasting our blood on you.

  • But the Jews who died in World War II, for example, didn’t die as Jews but as Americans.

  • zingzing

    horseshit, ruvy. why is it that jews fighting in the american army can decide their own reasons for fighting, while americans fighting in the american army can’t decide their reasons?

    plenty of americans in ww2 went over there to fight what hitler stood for, which includes the kind of thinking that created the holocaust.

    if you want to pretend you know the heart of every american that fought to free europe and the jews from hitler/nazi germany, you just go ahead.

    even you have to admit that you’re being really damn ridiculous at this point.

  • Good distinction, zing. Why American went to war is one thing; the motivation of the different individuals who either volunteered or got drafted is another.

  • Correction: “America”

  • Look, zing;

    Most American soldiers who fought in WWII, for example, were drafted. Not all, but most. Most soldiers did not know about the death camps of the Nazis either. The American government never made a stink about them. Some Jews knew, and they went to war in Europe spoiling to kill every damned German they saw. But the vast majority did not. They did their duty as citizens, fighting to protect the nation they lived in.

    When Jewish soldiers did find out about the death camps – by coming across them – they became enraged at Germans. But the American commanders did what they could to see to it that Jewish soldiers did not massacre German civilians in vengeance.

    I would be less than honest if I said that non-Jewish soldiers, upon finding these death camps, didn’t become enraged. A lot of them also wanted to massacre German civilians in vengeance.

    Now the question arises, “should the American commanders have allowed American soldiers, particularly Jewish ones, to massacre German civilians in retaliation for the barbarity the Germans did upon Jews?”

    I leave you to work that one out yourself.

    However, BOTTOM LINE. In all the wars I mentioned above, Jews died to protect Americans. So stop bitching and moaning like a sick cow.

  • Ruvy may have a point there, zing, because concentration camps were far from common knowledge.

    Whether the American Jews who have fought and died thought did so as Jews or as Americans, that’s another story. The matter of the person’s (primary) personal identity may have varied from individual to individual.

    I’m willing to bet that many Jewish-Americans believed themselves to be Americans first, and Jewish second.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “However, BOTTOM LINE. In all the wars I mentioned above, Jews died to protect Americans. So stop bitching and moaning like a sick cow.”

    no, ruvy, the bottom line is that you said that no american has ever died trying to help the jewish people. and i said that’s bullshit. i’m sure jews (american jews) died protecting america, but to say that no american has ever put him or herself on the line for the jewish people is complete and utter malarkey.

    one could say that–forgive me for bringing it up–those americans who died on 9/11 died because of america sticking up for israel. the image of america in the middle east is largely colored by our stance towards israel, and we’ve had to pay for it many times.

    so for you to say that no american has ever died for the jewish people is dishonest, sickening, arrogant and a lie.

  • So, zing, since you pretend at knowing history, tell me about all these Americans who died to protect Jews. Name places, battles, wars. Where did these events occur? In Shakespeare, maybe?

    American soldiers never fought to protect the Jewish State; they never fought to stop (or end) a pogrom; they never fought (as in picking up rifles and shooting) to end discrimination against Jews. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • BTW, zing, just to get it straight. Americans who died in a terror attack protected nobody – not Jews, not themselves. They were victims, not warriors. Or can’t you tell the difference?

  • Irene Wagner

    Many of the folks in whose circles I’ve run in the past supported some vaguely defined “War on Terror” because they believed, through manipulations of segments of the Religious Right, that fighting anyone with whom Israel had land disputes was fighting to protect the apple of God’s eye.

    I believe they were duped, Ruvy, and you found their interference–as many a Palestinian did, too– unwelcome and unhelpful.

  • Well, just as some of the crusaders did fight for the Holy Land and the (Christian) idea.

  • zingzing

    to #34: that’s true, of course, but that wasn’t anywhere near the point–the point being that american blood was spilt because of america’s foreign policy towards israel. every 9/11 victim, and every american soldier that dies in the middle east, died–in part–because of that policy. no matter that part of it is bush’s daddy complex, part of it is oil greed, part of it is religion, part of it is war profiteering, part of it is the actual desire to impart freedom, there IS a part of it that is about israel and the jews. it’s a complex region with complex reasons for life and death, that surely is true, but israel looms large in that reasoning.

    as for #34: ww2 is the same as above. part of the reason we got involved was pure economics. part of it was to stop germany and nazism from taking over europe. but part of it WAS to protect the jews. sure, american governmental policies towards refugee jews was pretty reprehensible, but to say that “they never fought to end discrimination against the jews” is just a lie. european ww2 is the proof. pick a battle, any battle.

    “American soldiers never fought to protect the Jewish State.” well, no, but we did supply you with the means to do so yourself, and we’ve been embroiled in multiple wars (declared or not) because (in part, in part) of the protection we do offer you.

    an american doesn’t have to die in israel for his/her death to be all about israel. we don’t have to carry a jew in our arms and yell, “look, i saved a jew!” in order to help the jewish people or the israeli state. for better or worse, every time there is a threat against israel, the person/nation making that threat sees us standing behind you. because of this support, americans have died.

  • Let’s bottom line this, zing. You called me a liar – but you can’t pony up any Yanks who died to protect Jews. It’s time to either put up – or shut up.

    BOTTOM LINE – if you go fishing far enough and with a big enough pail of worms, and a big fancy-assed sonar scope, you might come up with a guppy called “indirect concern for Israel”. That’s the little fishy you and Irene have managed so far. But while Jews have died – in their thousands – to protect America; Americans have never put their asses on the line for Jews.
    FULL STOP.

  • Clavos

    Sorry, zing. America’s participation in WW II had zilch to do with saving Jews, and everything to do with helping the UK and the other allies, who were saving themselves.

    Even after WW II, discrimination against (american) Jews here in america was rampant; saving Jews was not even on the horizon in WW II.

  • Irene Wagner

    Those little fishies got Bush elected and sent their own sons and daughter to die in a war they believed was a good cause, Ruvy.

  • zing, just to show you how big I am, I ponied up an American who put his ass on the line for Israel.

    GENERAL Mickey Marcus, a Brooklyn boy like me, a graduate of Erasmus Hall High School, graduate of West Point and a decorated veteran in WWII, was recruited by the Hagana to organize the IDF for David ben-Gurion. He was the first Jewish general to command a Jewish army for 1,400 years.

    To be sure, he fought for Israel because he was a Jew. But he was recruited because he was an American.

  • zingzing

    yeah, ok clavos. and the civil war had NOTHING to do with slavery.

    americans died in order to free the slaves/help the jews–maybe not every person who died did so thinking that’s what they died for, but some did, and that’s what counts in this argument.

    the point is still that americans have died for israel, and even if ruvy doesn’t want to accept ww2 or the past 60 years in the middle east as examples of such, i’m not going to argue with him about it anymore. if he really wants to argue that NOT ONE DROP OF AMERICAN BLOOD HAS EVER BEEN SHED FOR REASONS IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH ISRAEL OR THE JEWS, then he can have at it.

    but it’s bullshit, and he knows it. or maybe he doesn’t. he’s been blind to lesser things before.

  • zingzing

    to #42: “No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER!”

    and if you die in your holy war, you’ll be the second american to ever, ever shed blood for israel.

    end of discussion?

    it’s been fun. now i’m going to go screw a jewish girl on her period so the jews can bleed for me. can’t resist… publishing… horrid comment… gaahhhhh…..

  • But for you, zing, it’s put up or shut up time. You can’t seem to pony up those Americans who went to fight for Jews, can you? And you keep flappin’ your gums about it, too.

    I know it’s rough, but you can admit you when you are wrong. Trust me – it builds character.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, see #43, or any of the other comments i wrote.

  • Can’t seem to stop flappin your gums, can you? You called me a liar, and I proved you wrong – or more to the point, you proved how ignorant you are. And now you are proving how childish you are.

    It takes a MAN to admit he’s wrong. Anybody with a stick cock can fuck a girl on the rag.

  • I don’t think discussion is relevant. Jews didn’t die for America either, unless you want to count all Jewish-Americans to have been Jewish first and foremost and only secondarily Americans. And that is debatable.

    So it looks like there are no brownie points either way.

  • I don’t think discussion is relevant.

    The great thedakar from Christian County, KY, hath spoken! Let us all bow in obeisance!

  • I don’t claim to have a monopoly on knowledge, Ruvy. Just wondered what really was at stake here.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Can’t seem to stop flappin your gums, can you? You called me a liar, and I proved you wrong”

    i thought you proved me right up #42. i’m sure if one wanted to dig around a bit, you could find example after example out there. what with the interconnected politics of the world, i’m not sure you could find ANY deaths unrelated to israel at this point in time. next time a cat dies, it’ll be on israel.

    still, if you want to stick by your statement that “No Americans ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER!,” you have your fun. maybe you want to qualify it somehow. not sure.

    and just because you claim you’re right while claiming on wrong doesn’t make you right. and that’s all you’re doing. over and over again. (even after you prove me right.)

  • zingzing

    “And now you are proving how childish you are.”

    ha. because of the period joke? please. you know me well enough to know that i can’t resist such things.

    “It takes a MAN to admit he’s wrong. Anybody with a stick cock can fuck a girl on the rag.”

    wow. that’s about the most hypocritical thing i’ve seen today. it works on so many levels. childishness, admission of mistakes, appeal to manliness… that, ruvy, right there, that’s proof of god if i ever did see it. a rhetorical everest, i dare say. how did you pack all that into such a short sentence?

  • zingzing

    hrm, that should be: “and just because you claim you’re right while claiming I’M wrong doesn’t make you right.”

  • Clavos

    yeah, ok clavos. and the civil war had NOTHING to do with slavery.

    Stupid (and irrelevant) analogy, zing.

    When we entered WWII, we were keeping Jews from participating fully in our own culture; we had them as second class citizens and generally despised them, right here in amerika. We even refused European Jewish refugees entrance into the US during the war.

    At no time during the war did anyone in the government or elsewhere intimate that we were fighting to save Jews; nor, for that matter, were our allies — in their case it was self defense — Hitler was trying to take over the world, starting with Europe.

    Nobody, especially the USA, gave a rat’s ass about the Jews.

  • Well, that’s something I wasn’t aware of. So when did anti-Semitism sort of died out? After the war?

  • zingzing

    “At no time during the war did anyone in the government or elsewhere intimate that we were fighting to save Jews…”

    totally not the point.

  • zingzing

    “Stupid (and irrelevant) analogy, zing.”

    hrm. how? looks pretty good to me. wars aren’t always about what they’re supposed to be about, or about what one government says they are about. and the reasons individuals fight in wars are legion (ha ha).

  • Clavos

    OK, zing. You’ve made the allegation — prove it.

    Let’s see some supporting data from recognized historians.

  • Clavos

    Roger 55:

    Prejudice against Jews was nearly ubiquitous in the USA until the late fifties, and depending on the place, still exists today.

    Jews were barred from night clubs, restaurants, and private clubs for years after WW II, and also were excluded from many towns and developments, including Ft. Lauderdale, Florida right into the sixties.

  • Well, I came in 1961, NYC – and lived there for fifteen years. They say every third New Yorker was Jewish, never mind boroughs like Brooklyn. Naturally, I haven’t seen none of it, except once in a while guys get drunk and occasionally you hear some shit. But NYC is an exception, I guess, full of immigrants and all ethnic backgrounds.

  • OK, zing. You’ve made the allegation — prove it.

    Let’s see some supporting data from recognized historians.

    Don’t count on it, Clavos…. zing doesn’t have the sense for historical accuracy that I have. My original statement ought to have been, “No Americans (with the exception of maybe a dozen or so who on their own helped in the War of Independence of 1948-49 or in subsequent wars, like in 1973) ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER! THAT STATEMENT is as good as gold, because if I actually had to I could pony up the names and probably the places they died.

    zing, by contrast relies on others to provide his facts the way a barfly relies on others to buy him a drink.

    And Roger, for all of his knowledge, just does not know anything about Jew hatred – which truly surprises me. Poland was filled with it, and still is.

    Leaving aside all the “kill the Jews!” and all the hakenkreuzer I saw on walls and lampposts growing in a Jewish-Catholic neighborhood in Brooklyn, leaving aside the bullying of Catholic kids that I experienced as a child – these were truly minor things – traveling in upstate New York, even in the mid-sixties meant you did not mention being Jewish – not if you wanted a hotel room or a seat at a decent restaurant.

    Jew-hatred never went away. The stink of the death camps made it odious to admit to being a Jew-hater for a while. But it is all back now. It masquerades under the title “anti-Israel sentiment”, or “anti-Zionism” with useful idiots world-wide including on this site asserting that Israelis are today’s Nazis.

    AND TO PROVE ME RIGHT, a bunch of Jew-hating assholes are going to meet in Geneva today, Hitler’s 120th birthday, to call again for the destruction of the Jewish State, condemning it for “human rights” violations. Murderous animals like the Libyans, Sudanese, Saudis, Congolese, Rwandans, Burmese, Chinese and Russians and assorted other human trash, will call us genocidal and racist. And Hell’s Chorus will all solemnly say, “amen”.

  • Moving on to other news:

    From Arutz Sheva Hamas Cleric: ‘Jews Destined to Extermination’

    Arutz Sheva, quoted a 19 April 2009 Palestine Media Watch bulletin reporting a Hamas cleric stating that Jews are evil –
    “Their children will be exterminated.”

    Follow the links to get the full flavor of Arab racism and Jew-hatred. For my money, these bastards need to be executed – along with the Israelis who support them, and the foreigners who come to our land giving these murderers aid and comfort.

    Let those who would murder us die by our hands. Better that we should rinse our feet in their blood, than they should rinse theirs in ours. Enough of my people have died at the hands of this human trash. It’s time to rid the world of this garbage – wherever they fester and stink.

  • Oh, and to those of you who would whine, “you sound just like those you would kill,” the distinction is this. I’m more than willing to live in peace with my Arab neighbors. I hold no brief against them. Let them live and prosper on their lands, and be happy in their lives: but those who would kill me, I want to see die.

  • Sure it was there in Poland, especially outside of Warsaw, e.g., and quite open. In NYC, not really – not among the Italian or Irish Americans I worked with; very rarely would the subject even come up. I don’t know about upstate NY – except for Woodstock. And I do believe that the percentage of the Jewish population in NYC was quite high – can’t be sure of the numbers.

  • All these numbers have changed Roger. When I was a kid in Brooklyn, there were more Jews in New York City (2½ million) than there were in Israel!

  • Ruvy,

    There still must be, no more than in Israel, though.

    Ruvy, I graduated from Brooklyn College – all through the sixties. Probably, close to forty percent (or more) of these kids were Jewish, some from Jeshiva, too, I just haven’t experienced that – and that is to say even if I were to wear part of it on my sleeve. Which I didn’t, of course, because of the way I was raised.

    But then again, NYC is special. Just to show you, I haven’t seen any discrimination against blacks either – not until I got drafted and was in South Carolina, and Georgia and Texas. That’s when I first saw the water fountains with “for white” and “for colored” signs, and when billiard parlors would not allow a black GI in and play (because of policy). Needless to say, I was shocked.

    So I admit, I am rather naive about such matters, not having been raised in the US. And I’m glad it was never part of my upbringing.

  • zingzing

    “OK, zing. You’ve made the allegation — prove it. Let’s see some supporting data from recognized historians.”

    what was my allegation? i’m seriously at a loss here.

  • zingzing

    “Don’t count on it, Clavos…. zing doesn’t have the sense for historical accuracy that I have.”

    oh, thank god. i’d be a raving religious lunatic who believes he knows the future. prophet ruvy, you can have your own historical accuracy.

    “My original statement ought to have been, “No Americans (with the exception of maybe a dozen or so who on their own helped in the War of Independence of 1948-49 or in subsequent wars, like in 1973) ever died to keep Jews safe – NOT EVER! THAT STATEMENT is as good as gold, because if I actually had to I could pony up the names and probably the places they died.”

    even if that statement is still wrong, that’s better ruvy. and i’ll still stick by my ORIGINAL STATEMENT that your original statement was “completely false.”

    “zing, by contrast relies on others to provide his facts the way a barfly relies on others to buy him a drink.”

    and i thank you for me being right, or whatever. kisses. ruvy, you and the facts are like two drunks that stumble around in the dark looking for the bathroom and end up pissing all over each other.