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Possible Effect of Voter Registration Fraud on the Election

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We have all heard of the Bradley Effect — the polls suggest that there will be more votes cast for Senator Obama than actually will be: Senator Obama is Black, and since some poll respondents do not wish to be considered racist they conceal their true intentions. Although difficult if not impossible to quantify rigorously, there is probably something to the theory.

I have another theory to suggest, the bottom line of which is that the spate of fraudulent voter registrations, many courtesy of ACORN, may have a similar effect and, quite possibly, an unintended consequence. This theory is predicated on assumptions for the first of which I have significant empirical evidence and for the second of which I have only modest empirical evidence. I must also acknowledge an abysmal lack of sophistication in statistical methodology.

Assumption 1. The various opinion polls are weighted to reflect, among other things, percentages of registered voters in the sample area. The sample used by Zogby, for example, is drawn as follows:

Samples are randomly drawn from telephone cd's of national listed sample. Zogby International surveys employ sampling strategies in which selection probabilities are proportional to population size within area codes and exchanges. Up to six calls are made to reach a sampled phone number.

The responses are then weighted as follows:

Weighting by [region, party, age, race, religion, gender] is used to adjust for non-response. The margin of error is +/- 2.9 percentage points. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups. (emphasis added)

Hence, if the respondent sample is deficient in a particular race, party or other sub-group, answers of respondents from the deficient subgroup are given greater weight. Such weighting is appropriate for any number of reasons, including the exclusion of cell phones from the national listed sample which, absent weighting, would cause over sampling of respondents with land line telephone service. Obviously, people with no telephone service, cellular or land line, are also excluded. I have no problem in general with the weighting process, because it makes sense.

Assumption 2. Although I have seen no data which affirm or reject the notion, I assume that most of the recent ACORN registrations have reflected affiliation either as Democratic Party or (possibly) Independent. This does not suggest any evil intent on the part of ACORN; it is merely a probable outcome of the areas and population groups in which ACORN makes its efforts — "low and moderate income neighborhoods and communities of color" where Democrats (or possibly Independents) are many and Republicans are few.

To the extent that voter registration drives have been successful, new voters have been registered; that is the purpose of registration drives. According to the most recent Zogby poll,

Among those voters who said they have registered to vote in the last six months, Obama leads McCain by a 53% to 37% margin. Among those who have already voted – about seven percent of the sample – Obama leads by a 52% to 42% edge over McCain.

The sixteen point spread among new registrants is much greater than the ten percent spread among those who have already voted. Both spreads are significantly greater than the 6.2 percentage point spread overall. In attempting to understand these numbers, it would be useful to recall the sampling and weighting methodologies, referenced above, used in calculating the numbers.

Assumption 3 Some, but not all, exemplars of the attempted fraudulent voter registration process have got past whatever screening process registrars of voters use. It would be unrealistic to assume otherwise, if for no other reason that the volume has overwhelmed many voting registration offices. Some have been detected, others most likely have slipped through. In some cases, it has been impossible to remove from the voting rolls those not entitled to vote, because they are felons which may not under a State law be entitled to vote, or otherwise. It may be appealing to speculate about how many fraudulent registrations have been detected, but it is quite difficult to determine now how many have slipped through. Few of the many dead people who have been registered are likely to vote, and neither would Mickey Mouse nor Ned A. Job likely attempt to vote, or be allowed to do so, even assuming that their registrations slipped through. Still, it seems probable that some indeterminate number of fraudulently registered voters will actually vote. That is not the point of this article. The resulting mess following 4 November may well be worth writing about later, but not now.

Thus, I think one may reasonably conclude that:

1. To the (unknown) extent that fraudulent voter registrations have inflated the apparent number of registered Democrats (or, for that matter, Independents or Republicans), the results have been reflected in the public opinion polls due to the sample selection and weighting processes outlined above. Based on recent accounts of ACORN's activities, it seems reasonable (to me; others may well disagree) to assume that there have been more fraudulent registrations as Democrats than as Republicans. If so, the polls are to that extent distorted in favor of a win by Senator Obama, thereby exacerbating the Bradley effect.

2. An indeterminate number of registered voters are a bit lazy. If it is raining, or the car has a flat tire, they have the flu, or for any number of reasons, they are less likely to vote than their more energized brethren. It seems reasonable to assume that if they feel that their votes are not necessary for their candidate to win, they are even less likely to vote. Many of them recognize what they perceive to be realities, and if their candidate is substantially ahead in the polls, just won't bother. This effect is, obviously, likely to be counterbalanced to an indeterminate extent by those whose candidates are substantially behind in the polls. They just won't bother either.

3. Opinion polls, due to their sampling and weighting methodologies, are flawed. It is unwise to put much faith in them. Regardless of what they suggest, it would be foolish to abstain from voting because of them. Nevertheless, some will do so.

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About Dan Miller

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Interesting and fair analysis as always, Dan.

    Ironically, there may not actually have been much to the original ‘Bradley Effect’. This article by the chief polling guru for George Deukmejian – the guy who ended up defeating Bradley – claims that Deukmejian’s own polling showed that he had all but eaten up Bradley’s once substantial lead by election day.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    One convincing theory I’ve heard about the ACORN registrations is that they are there specificially to inflate the total number of registered voters so that when those voters don’t show up, the poll workers who run about 2:1 democrats to republicans – a geat many state and local government bureaucrats are election day volunteers – will have been told how many bogus registrations there are and will add that many votes to the Obama totals at the end of the day. There have been past instances of exactly this, most notably in the 2004 election in Missouri where such added unsourcable votes were part of the overall pattern of election fraud, with tens of thousands of votes which ended up being proven fraudulent after the fact. Fraud on that scale doesn’t happen without the cooperation of poll workers.

    I urge every republican out there to contact your county elections office and volunteer to work the polls. The training is usually pretty easy and it’s just one day off work to be present to witness and to protect the integrity of the process.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    Well, Dave, that’s how it worked here in Washington in 2004, and true to form, the people whose job it is to prosecute refused to do so, while the people responsible for filing the civil suit screwed up their filing and got it tossed on a technicality, then lacked the stones to re-file a proper brief.

    Since then, of course, we’ve got the “Vote by Mail” thing passed on us, and so there’s no “Polls” to watch and no registration book to sign-fraud’s easier now, it’s a wonder that anyone bothers to run against the Democratic Party’s chosen ones-maybe that alone substantiates the lack of fiscal responsibility. Why bother running a campaign when you know that no matter HOW the actual citizens vote, the outcome will be decided by the politburo in Seattle?

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I find it incredible, Dave, that you assume that fraud happens only among Dems, when it has been proven over and over again that Republicans have perpetrated voter fraud year after year. Look at Florida and Ohio to name but two states. Why do you persist in this bizarre myth? Yes, there is voter fraud. But on both sides. Get real, kiddo. And quit acting like such a victim.

  • Cannonshop

    #4 Proof, Lisa? I can provide proof of fraud from your side…including prosecutions for it. Of course, any election a Democrat loses after the third recount MUST be fraud, right??? Whereas “Found” votes (found after each successive demand for a recount, mysteriously ‘missed’ or left inside the voting box?), Mickey Mouse, the Dallas Cowboys, and seventy three people with the same name (that of a teenager??), those’re all valid, because (naturally) they were gathered by YOUR allies??

    and “Every Vote must be counted” as a warcry (except, of course, for Military personnel overseas-those can be ignored, after all, they’re probably for the wrong party…), right?? That’s (what’s the word)Kosher with you. YOu’re good with that.

    NO. Lisa, NO and NO and NO. Repeating a lie because it makes you feel good does not make it true, and saying fraud’s okay because you’ve convinced yourself someone else did it first is NOT OKAY.

    This is an organization under indictment in multiple states, for the same CRIME, and NOT in the “After the voting is done and we’re going to throw a temper tantrum because we lost wahhh.” that characterizes the Florida and Ohio accusations.

    It’s not isolated to a single state, it’s not isolated to “battleground” states, Lisa. Even in WASHINGTON STATE, a state that is essentially a Democratic Fiefdom with known-crooked-machine politics, this group was caught violating the law so badly that it wasn’t ignored, even by those who stand to benefit (though, honestly, not that much-three districts in Seattle choose the Governor, Senators, and assign the Electoral Votes for the rest of the state. the Politburo-er, “King County Elections Comission” decides the winners here by manufactured votes, dead votes, and duplicate votes. Washington belongs to the Democratic Party.)

    But you’re clearly good with that. In fact, I suspect rather strongly at this point, that you’re good with a whole lot of things as long as your Party wins, even if the win is a matter of fixing the race. (perhaps ESPECIALLY if so).

    After all, it’s “Progressive” to bring Chicago Machine Politics into the National system, right??

    Gotta advance that “progressive Vanguard of the Class Struggle” because the Ends Justify The Means, don’t they?

    You once (on a different topic) told me I should be a Democrat-well, Lisa, this is exactly why I can’t vote Democrat while I’m still alive. Once dead, of course, I know that I’ll vote Democrat for DECADES (at least, if I stay in Washington State, or if this shit isn’t stopped HARD, nationwide.)

  • Clavos

    It’s a deadly issue, Cannon.

    BTW, when I was in the IAM here in Miami many decades ago, I was (if memory serves) the only Conservative among all the union’s members in this district.

    Are you also pretty much on your own?

  • Cannonshop

    #6 about 30% of IAM members up here self-identify as “Conservative” or “Republican”, Clav, including a “minority party” of sorts among the Stewards and District Council-never quite enough to sway the leadership out of the ‘Progressives’ hands, but enough that (very rarely) the district actually pays more attention to representing the membership than to representing the Democratic Party To the membership in the manner of a Pavlov’s good-doggy, endorsing and supporting with no guarantees of getting anything in return…

  • zingzing

    you guys completely ignore the republican tactic of vote-suppression, especially in minority areas. how do they get this done?

    THEY RAISE THE ALARM ABOUT NON-EXISTENT VOTER FRAUD AND CLAMP DOWN WITH NEW, RESTRICTIVE LAWS. der.

    smear campaigns, such as ACORN, and ridiculous lawsuits are just more facets of the republican tactic. they do this shit every time. one has to wonder how much of this kind stuff is purely republican meddling.

    they challenge the right of people to vote, but never seem to care about the white, suburban areas. they go straight into the inner city, to the minority areas. and then they purge and make voters ineligible through whatever method they can, including tightening database rules and using “caging,” rove’s favorite tactic for winning ohio and florida.

    while the republicans want to make you think that they are just protecting you from democratic voter fraud, what they are really doing is committing their own voter fraud while loudly shouting about the democrats so that you don’t hear them sneaking around, disenfranchising you.

    it’s systematic and it’s smart, and they’re doing it RIGHT NOW.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    It’s not voter fraud. It’s voting better.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Oh please, Zing. Those lame caging accusations are so stupid. Republican voter fraud by your definition is equivalent to requiring voters to follow their states rules for eligibility. OMG, how evil!

    Dave

  • zingzing

    but they add “rules for eligibility” all the time, saying that it’s to combat non-existent democratic voter-fraud. that’s what i’m saying. and caging isn’t lame, it’s pretty fucking brilliant.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Zing, Republicans can’t add rules in a vacuum. That requires the state government to do it and likely in most states a full scale law or constitutional amendment.

    And what has become abundantly clear in recent weeks is that democratic voter fraud is anything but non-existent. Pull your head out of the sand and smell the corruption.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave, you don’t think that republicans need to actually change the laws, do you? they just declare voters ineligible juuust prior to the election, thus not giving them time to assert their eligibility. i’d bet that in the past few weeks, they’ve sent out tons of mailers to homes undergoing foreclosure in inner-city areas in michigan, florida, ohio… any state where just a little push might give them the edge they need.

    as for democratic voter fraud, i haven’t seen any actual numbers… other than 50 (“and where there’s 50, there could be 150,” they said…)

    so show me the types of numbers that could actually be as bad as republican machinations…

  • Jordan Richardson

    This is a pretty good analysis of the reality of voter fraud. (Careful, it’s 24 pages). And my this article dips into the issue a little more.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Jordan, let’s give ‘em a while to read ‘em, but given the source of your citations, you don’t really think Dave ‘n’ co are going to do anything other than dismiss them out of hand, do you?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I know. I’m still getting used to the fact that certain individuals don’t care what the facts are but rather care where the facts came from.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Lisa, re comment # 4

    True, there has been voter fraud all over, and for a long time. The problem is that although both parties and their surrogates carry some blame, the electoral process is the victim. You are a victim, I am a victim, and so is everyone else who votes. As a consequence, the country as a whole is a “victim.” Damn, I hate that word.

    The recent ACORN activities appear to resemble a spam attack, except that they are more difficult to counter. BC has suffered spam attacks in the past, and so have many other sites. They are a nuisance, but can be dealt with because the necessary technology is available. Overloading the voter registration process with even patently fraudulent registration attempts is far worse; each registration has to be reviewed, often by people, one at a time, so that no legitimate registration is rejected. It is not easy.

    Yesterday, the Ohio Board of Elections was ordered to verify voter registrations.

    CINCINNATI — A federal appeals court has ordered Ohio’s top elections official to set up a system by Friday to verify new voters’ eligibility.

    The full 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati has upheld an earlier ruling that Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner has to use other government records to check the thousands of new voters for registration fraud. A three-judge panel of the 6th Circuit had disagreed last week, but the full court’s ruling trumps the panel’s decision.

    It will be very difficult at this late date to comply with the en banc order issued by the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. Obviously, verification should have undertaken earlier. Equally obviously, spam-type attacks substantially diminish the likelihood that it can now be done reliably.

    Even if there were readily available computer software to deal with the problem effectively, data entry would remain a labor intensive task.

    Spam attacks are bad, in any form. The recent ones are worse than most, because they undermine the legitimacy of the electoral process.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Fortunately, it now appears likely that Obama will win convincingly enough to make any challenge to the legitimacy of votes in some areas a mere sideshow. If not, it seems certain that there will be a bitter legal fight to rival 2000: the GOP will do their utmost to make sure the matter goes all the way to the Supreme Court, knowing full well that that august body will again vote along straight party lines, and therefore in their favor.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And this is the “Democracy” that United States wants to spread around the world?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Doc,

    There you go again, to quote a dead white male politician, relying on the polls. Perhaps Senator Obama has a fourteen point lead or perhaps it’s three points. Or perhaps it’s more than fourteen points or less than three points, or perhaps it is somewhere in between.

    Do you remember the famous picture of President Truman holding up a newspaper the banner headline of which was “Dewey Wins” ?

    Don’t count your acorns before they germinate; they don’t all grow into mature oak trees.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    I find it incredible, Dave, that you assume that fraud happens only among Dems, when it has been proven over and over again that Republicans have perpetrated voter fraud year after year. Look at Florida and Ohio to name but two states. Why do you persist in this bizarre myth? Yes, there is voter fraud. But on both sides. Get real, kiddo. And quit acting like such a victim.

    Lisa, there is widespread evidence of Democrat voter fraud going back decades and taking many forms. It’s hardly a bizarre myth.

    As for your claims about Ohio and FLorida, you’re repeating a popular belief held by many on the left for which there is no factual evidence. Show me proof of Republican fraud in either of those elections. And I mean real proof, like eyewitnesses or documentary evidence. There is none. There are lots of allegations which were investigated and proven to be untrue.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Maturity can be quite difficult to achieve, especially by the political set.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dan,

    I’m not basing my opinion on the national popular vote, but on the state polls and their projected effect on the electoral college. There, Obama is applying toe vigorously to buttock.

    There are a number of sites which track the polls in this way, and two in particular have predicted the last couple of elections with commendable accuracy. I’ve linked to them before: they are Electoral Vote, which is run by a liberal, and Election Projection, which is run by a conservative. They use different algorithms, but the methodology of both seems sound.

    A newcomer to the mix is Fivethirtyeight.com, which ravenously seizes whatever polling data it can find and analyses it so thoroughly, and in so many different ways, that it should keep the most hardened election junkie happy for months.

    Enjoy!

  • Baronius

    Zing, poorer and urban people change residence more frequently. That’s established. Therefore there are going to be more challenges to registrations in those communities.

    As to which party commits more fraud, usually you need a machine to commit any significant-sized fraud. The legendary corrupt cities (Philadelphia, New Orleans, Chicago, etc.) are run by Democrats. Republicans don’t have the opportunity to commit massive fraud.

  • bliffle

    Baronius the Erroneous ventures:

    “Republicans don’t have the opportunity to commit massive fraud.”

    Some, witnessing the Kathryn Harris effort in Florida 2000, would differ.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    It now appears that in Ohio,

    Close to one in every three newly registered Ohio voters will end up on court-ordered lists being sent to county election boards because they have some discrepancy in their records, an elections spokesman said Wednesday.

    Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner estimated that an initial review found that about 200,000 newly registered voters reported information that did not match motor-vehicle or Social Security records, Brunner spokesman Kevin Kidder said. Some discrepancies could be as simple as a misspelling, while others could be more significant.

    It is a shame that it took an en banc order of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals to get this process moving.

    Ohio is one of the closer states,

    Barack Obama has pulled in front of John McCain in Ohio. The latest Fox News/Rasmussen Reports telephone poll in the state finds Obama leading 49% to 47%.

    This is the first poll where Obama has been ahead since tracking of the race began in February.

    Could it be possible that fraudulent registrations have affected the polls?

    One in three ain’t too bad. Hell, even one in two wouldn’t be too bad. It could, I guess, be worse.

    Occasionally, but not often, I wish that I were an active, rather than a recovering, attorney. $$$$$$$$$$$.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Baronius

    Bliffle, those who think that there was massive voter fraud in Florida in 2000 are suffering from the irrational political rage we’re talking about on another thread.

  • Pablo

    Dave said:

    “As for your claims about Ohio and FLorida, you’re repeating a popular belief held by many on the left for which there is no factual evidence. Show me proof of Republican fraud in either of those elections”

    Then Baronius said:

    “Bliffle, those who think that there was massive voter fraud in Florida in 2000 are suffering from the irrational political rage we’re talking about on another thread.”

    What typical right wing nonsense. It is a public and proven fact that Florida former Secretary of State Katherine Harris, along with then Governor Jeb Bush, hired a company called Choicepoint to cull the voter lists of convicted felons, that were not eligible to vote at the time. Problem is, is that they culled over 40,000 eligible non felons with that hit list, most of them African-Americans. You may not call this voter fraud, but I do, and it indeed caused the election to go to
    Bush.

    What you right wingers would rather do is to take some poor unfortunate signature gatherers for registration that were lying to increase their meager earnings, that have quite frankly nothing to do with any real or persuasive type of voter fraud, unlike in Florida where they clearly stole the election.

    Google Choicepoint AND Jeb Bush AND election and felon.

    Nice try boys, but your wrong, as USUAL.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Pablo, making voters meet the eligibility requirements laid out in the state law is NOT voter fraud. Caging lists are legal. If you move and don’t update your address don’t expect to be allowed to vote. Plus your number for people mistaken for felons is ridiculously inflated. The ChoicePoint list only had 8000 names on it and nowhere near 40,000 voters were rejected. Plus, under Florida law they were allowed to make provisional votes so theoretically no one was actually denied a vote.

    Dave

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “If you move and don’t update your address don’t expect to be allowed to vote.”

    So then you could vote in the last place you were registered, and if you can’t get to your polling place, you could fill out a provisional ballot. That’s the way it works in CA

  • Clavos

    Also in FL, EB.

    The fact is, Pablo, both the 2000 and 2004 FL elections have been investigated to a fare thee well by evrybody under the sun, and no evicence of fraud that would stand up in court has ever turned up.

    Give it a rest, bubba.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Is it so impossible for our Republican friends to believe that they might actually lose an election on the merits? That the voters actually prefer the Democrat on the issues?

    Scrambling to explain this, they have to conflate the [unrelated] Acorn and Ohio stories into some sort of massive fraud conspiracy, diabolically designed to thwart democracy.

    Some of you, I suspect, are actually intelligent enough to spend your time more constructively, if you so chose.

    Acorn [not a monolithic entity with a single purpose, but a network of many local chapters with multiple areas of work, 99% of it selfless and admirable] claims to have registered 1.3 million voters since the last election. Even if 1 in 10 were invalid [probably much higher than the real number], that’s 130,000 invalid registrations. Not votes! Registrations! In the entire country of more than 100 million voters.

    Voter registration irregularities [intentional or not] aren’t the same as vote fraud. And as for Ohio, if any of those 200,000 are not allowed to vote because of a spelling error, shame on the state officials who do it and shame on you for cheering them on.

    Nalle, Dan et al have created a crisis and a villain that don’t exist. Any genuinely balanced reading of the facts about voter registration, Acorn, etc [not recycled conspiracy-mongering hot air] deflates these non-stories just about completely.

  • Cannonshop

    Acorn [not a monolithic entity with a single purpose, but a network of many local chapters with multiple areas of work, 99% of it selfless and admirable] claims to have registered 1.3 million voters since the last election. Even if 1 in 10 were invalid [probably much higher than the real number], that’s 130,000 invalid registrations. Not votes! Registrations! In the entire country of more than 100 million voters.

    A “network” that’s got prosecutions in multiple states on-going for the same crime, Handy, and at the same TIME. (that is, simultaneously).

    If it’s an isolated incident, you’d expect one, maybe two in a year, not FIFTEEN.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    As a wise man once said, Seek and ye shall find.

    Who’s been doing the seeking here? Who doesn’t do well when voter turnout is high?

  • Pablo

    Hey again Bubbas (Davey and his boy wonder Clavy,

    According to Wikepedia on the company Choicepoint:

    “In the aftermath of the vote, the owner of DBT Online, ChoicePoint,was accused of cooperating with Florida Governor Jeb Bush, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, and Florida Elections Unit Chief Clay Roberts, in voter fraud, conspiracy involving the central voter file. It was also accused of having a bias in favor of the Republican Party, for knowingly using inaccurate data, and for racial discrimination.

    The allegations charge that 57,700 people (15% of the list), primarily Democrats of African-American and Hispanic descent, were incorrectly listed as felons and thus barred from voting. Reports estimate that 80% of these people would have voted, and that 90% of those who would have voted, would have voted for Al Gore.[24] Other allegations include listing voters as felons for alleged crimes said to have been committed several years in the future. The official (and disputed) margin of victory, in the election, was 537 votes.”

    Only someone such as yourself Davey, with your convoluted ideas of what constitutes logic and fairness would categorize this travesty as LEGAL. You should be outraged, instead you would rather use your limited mental abilities to attack ACORN, which obviously happened due to poor schmucks cheating on the registration forms to get a few more measly bucks outta the deal. Or perhaps you think that thousands upon thousands of fraudulent Mickey Mouse voters will be hop-skipping across precinct lines and hopping over to other states to vote fraudulantly. Sure bubba.

    Oh and Clavy, I don’t mind if you can come up with your OWN unflattering label of me, however BUBBA is reserved for those of you that are of the right wing ilk, and close cousins to Joe Sixpack. Once a bubba, always a bubba. :)

  • Clavos

    handyguy, @#32 sez:

    Acorn [not a monolithic entity with a single purpose, but a network of many local chapters with multiple areas of work, 99% of it selfless and admirable] claims to have registered 1.3 million voters since the last election. (emphasis added)

    Hmm. “99% selfless and admirable?” Admirable, perhaps (for Democrats, at least), but certainly not selfless – there’s method (and purpose) to their “selfless” labor. This organization, 100% of whose members are Democrats, are not working to recruit voters for the Republicans, so it’s not exactly selfless; they are trying (and succeeding, albeit sometimes over the top) to grow the rolls of Democratic voters.

    “Selfless?” Paid canvassers – canvassers who, by some accounts are under extreme pressure to meet quotas?

    “Selfless?” Let’s not gild the lily, handy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    This organization, 100% of whose members are Democrats…

    You got a citation for that, Clav?

  • Clavos

    Pablo @#35:

    You just don’t get it, do you?

    Your lengthy and somewhat boring copy-and-paste from Wikipedia NEVER says there was ever any legal evidence. Learn how to read, bubba, it uses the words “accused” and “allegations” over and over again.

    It’s meaningless.

    There’s no proof there, bubba. You have heard of proof, haven’t you? It’s that inconvenient thing necessary to actually make “accusations” and “allegations” and “charges” turn into a “conviction” in a court of law, bubba.

    But you probably went to government schools, so I should cut you some slack, I guess.

  • Cannonshop

    #34 Doc, nobody was looking for this before it happened. The fact that it’s here to be FOUND ought to be, but isn’t, disturbing to an awful lot of folks. I guess if it was a Christian org that was doing it, say, someone aligned with the Republicans, your Democrat friends might be disturbed by it. Since it ain’t, they defend it, pretend it’s one or two isolated cases, or that it isn’t happening at all, or that it doesn’t matter that it IS happening.

    Naturally enough, it’s because ACORN is part of the “Progressive Vanguard” and therefore exempt, even Heroic (as Lefties measure such things) for conducting their fraud-the ends justify the means, and the ends in this case is Democrat victory at any cost.

    When republicans lose elections, republicans blame…the guy who lost (which is why Dino Rossi isn’t even going to come close in Washington State).

    When Dems lose elections (2000, 2004) it’s because those EEEEEEEEEEEvillll (deep, scary, Vincent Price voice) Republicans (canned ‘scream’ track) somehow changed the vote without leaving any trace. After all, John Kerry and Al Gore appealed to EVERYONE, NOBODY wanted to vote against them, saw them as snake-oil-salesmen, or held (in Kerry’s case) their previous actions against them or anything… In the mind of a Democrat, it’s simply not possible for someone to oppose their candidate without being part of some ‘Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that Kills Puppies and Cackles Ominously’.

    (of course, the other favourite stereotype is the two-teeth beerbelly redneck married to her brother, clutching to religion and guns).

    There is no ‘diversity’ among Democrats once you remove the paintjob-they really DO think in lockstep, and do NOT EVER step outside of Party-Worship. Those that have, in the past, have been, for want of a better term, excommunicated. There are religious people within the Republican party, but the Left IS a religion-with a Jealous God called “The Party” and a Messiah/Prophet named Obama. Thanks in part to the retention of that atrocity of law known as the “Patriot Act”, America will, on January 20th, become a Theocracy in worship to the ghosts of Marx and Alinsky.

    A situation which I largely blame on John McCain, the Republican Party, and the Republican National Committee.

    But, it will do so also because of groups like ACORN paving the way and using tax-money to defraud elections. a Truly bipartisan effort, in my opinion.

  • Clavos

    Um, Doc, what Republican in his (or her) right mind would volunteer to go out and register Dem voters?

    Do you know a Rep who is in ACORN?

    However, I will concede that perhaps many ACORN members are NOT Democrats, but rather SWP, or Marxists, CPUSA, etc.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Or independents, Clav.

    I mentioned nothing about Republicans, as you (belatedly!) noted.

  • Clavos

    Not even independents, Doc, ACORN is no place for uncommitted non-ideologues.

  • Pablo

    Clavy,

    Pablo gettin under your skin bubba? Awww shucks.

    Here is a video of former Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris and a former executive of Choicepoint admitting what they illegally purged registered voters from casting a vote in the 2000 election. The last count taken before the Supreme Court stopped the vote was some 500 odd votes.

    The testimony of Harris starts about a minute and a half into the clip.

    Katherine Harris admitting to purging eligible voters

    You may want to dispute that it was 57,000 people that were purged from the list, however even if it were a fraction of that Gore would still have won and become President.

    This is history, and I mean that in the literal rather than rhetorical sense of the word. It was done, and it was done as the behest of Harris (whom incidentally was allowed into the CFR right after it happened) and Jeb Bush.

    You dance around like Dave does because no one was indicted or convicted that it was legal. You should be ashamed of yourself. Thousands of eligible american citizens were denied the right to vote in Florida, and we have had 8 years of living HELL.

    Just as you lose no sleep at night knowing that your tax dollars and your government has slaughtered over one million human being in Iraq, I am equally sure that you don’t lose a wink out of your precious sleep knowing that your bretheren were denied their basic civil right, the right to vote. But hey, you will squawk all day about ACORN won’t ya bubba. hehehe

    We dont want to talk about the voting machines now do we bubba? You know the ones that are not accountable to the people? The ones that can be hacked with ease. Instead your vote goes into the black hole of your trust in Diebold. Big smirk for all you buckos out there that think your vote counts. It dont. Thats why they made them (electronic voting machines), not to make the count easier, but to steal elections! Duhhhh

    So have fun with your ACORN project bubbas (dave and clavy), but hey, two nuts are better than one. Smirk

  • Cannonshop

    Clav, there’s no point to it anymore. To an American Lefty, “Independent” means “Left of left of center”, and “uncommitted” means “Can’t decide between Nader and Obama”.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    I have yet to hear all the info, but it sounds much more like a bunch of minimum wage workers cheating their bosses than some left wing conspiracy.

  • Clavos

    It is to laugh, bubba. You cite, as your what? “evidence?” “proof?” a video featuring Greg Palast and Cynthia McKinney.

    What little cred you might have had with me at one time, bubba, just died an ignominious death.

    You have some serious issues, bubba. Even a government school diploma can’t excuse that level of gullibility.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    So then you could vote in the last place you were registered, and if you can’t get to your polling place, you could fill out a provisional ballot. That’s the way it works in CA

    Exactly, EB. I voted in my old district for a couple of years after I moved here in Texas. And I know they take provisional ballots in Florida where this whole issue came up.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    Clavos, just remember- Pablo believes in the ‘Troothers, it’s not hard to see how he would believe in other looney conspiracy theory bullshit.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    This is history, and I mean that in the literal rather than rhetorical sense of the word. It was done, and it was done as the behest of Harris (whom incidentally was allowed into the CFR right after it happened) and Jeb Bush.

    Since both candidates were CFR members, how can the CFR membership issue possibly be relevant?

    You dance around like Dave does because no one was indicted or convicted that it was legal.

    Turn this sentence around – since no one was indicted or convicted, therefore it WAS legal.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    Thats ok Clavy, you NEVER have had any credibility with me about ANYTHING. :)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Voter registration fraud? In the land of the free and the home of the brave? Say it ain’t so, Dan… somebody… anybody?

    Why, I’d bet my last acorn (I don’t have any more dollars) that American elections are as free and unbiased as any say in, Haiti, South Africa, Zimbabwe or uhh… Israel.

  • bliffle

    cannon offersa another red herring:

    A “network” that’s got prosecutions in multiple states on-going for the same crime, Handy, and at the same TIME. (that is, simultaneously).

    If it’s an isolated incident, you’d expect one, maybe two in a year, not FIFTEEN.

    ACORN has never been successfully prosecuted for voter fraud, in spite of NUMEROUS attempts.

    ACORN employees special software to track the registrations turned in to it and to aid prosecution of registration fraudsters.

    The reason there are so many prosecution attempts is because that is RNC policy, to the extent of harassing US Attorneys that don’t pursue that enthusiastically. Even firing Republican US Attorneys appointed by a Republican administration, that seem not to be aggressive enough. Remember Gonsales, late AG?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Ruvy,

    Why no, of course there is no such thing as voter registration fraud or voter fraud. Just a buncha guys, folks in the neighborhood, doing what they think is good. Laws which disenfranchise dead people, felons, non-U.S. citizens, and the like are bad or difficult to enforce and should, therefore, be ignored. I mean, you know, what’s good is good, even if some stupid State or Federal laws say it’s illegal.

    I once thought that the most effective way to get bad laws changed was to enforce them so that the regular folks would demand their repeal or modification. Wrong. Just ignore those laws you don’t like, and enforce those which you think are good. Ain’t anarchy great!

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Pablo, when your proof starts “According to Wikepedia,” you don’t have any proof.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Not to worry. Now the FBI is on the case. The investigation should be completed abandoned well before the election (in 2012).

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Voter fraud is as American as Apple Pie. I say we need U.N. election observers.

  • Baronius

    “Is it so impossible for our Republican friends to believe that they might actually lose an election on the merits? That the voters actually prefer the Democrat on the issues?”

    Handy makes a valid point. Both sides have to watch out for that kind of thinking. We need to keep an eye out for unfairness, but we can’t delude ourselves when our candidates lose fairly. The Dems decided early that if they lost this election, they were going to blame racism. The Republicans has been getting increasingly feverish about ACORN the closer they get to a loss.

    Both parties have run some real losers: Dole, Gore, Kerry, and probably McCain. The Dems generally refuse to accept the blame for their lousy candidates, and complain about “swiftboating” and the like. Republicans get miserably angry at themselves, the country, and their candidates, but don’t typically blame their losses on gremlins.

  • bliffle

    Sounds like Dan(Miller) is getting hysterical if he doesn’t recognize fiat law when he sees it. Isn’t Dan(Miller) an attorney?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Bliffle,

    I admit my errors. I am now a recovering attorney and, yes, I did once own a Fiat station wagon. I used it to drive to my law office. So, yes, I do recognize fiat law when [I see] it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I shall now go and hang myself. That is the only honorable thing to do. Good bye, cruel world. Good bye.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Both parties have run some real losers:…Gore,”

    Gore received more popular votes than Bush and lost FL by 500+ votes. I didn’t vote for him, but to call him a “real loser” shows utter ignorance in political history and a poor grasp on the English language. Now, Mondale and McGovern were real losers as candidates.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Don’t forget Dukakis!

  • Baronius

    Bicho, I meant “loser” in a broader sense. But then again, Gore did lose.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Clavos, just to clarify, re the 99% of Acorn’s work factoid…

    Voter registration is not their primary activity. Access to housing and access to legal redress of grievances for the poor are two of their major areas of activity.

    Certainly, they are left of center. I don’t know whether they would refuse to register people who self-identified as independent or Republican, or in fact if they even could do that.

    But they do concentrate on poorer neighborhoods. Not, in itself, objectionable to you guys, I assume?

    PS I am aware of the embarrassing embezzlement scandal involving the founder’s brother. I do not count that among the 99% selfless activity. Helping poor folks assert their rights, though…that’s a good thing.

  • bliffle

    Dan(Miller): hanging is not appropriate; I believe that Sepuku is called for in the case of humiliating disgrace. Don’t forget to wet the blade: it slips through flesh more easily that way.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is a link to an article pointing out the extent to which recent polls are divergent and suggesting that survey methodologies and weighting of responses are a cause. Polling has some scientific bases, but relies on a lot of subjective judgments which skew the results.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    I found the Supreme Court’s per curiam opinion. Here is a link.

    The opinion states,

    We express no opinion on the question whether HAVA is being properly implemented. Respondents, however, are not sufficiently likely to prevail on the question whether Congress has authorized the District Court to enforce Section 303 in an action brought by a private litigant to justify the issuance of a TRO. See Gonzaga Univ. v. Doe, 536 U. S. 273, 283 (2002); Alexander v. Sandoval, 532 U. S. 275, 286 (2001). We therefore grant the application for a stay and vacate the TRO.

    In other words, the decision was on a procedural point, and in no way dealt with the underlying issue of whether there has been compliance with HAVA. I suspect that the issue will resurface during litigation over the recounts, which will probably be necessary if the election is a close one, between 4 November and the inauguration of whomever.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Cannonshop

    Just based on what was on the news today, I think the Court is right in vacating the action, at least, on a technical level. For some reason, Republicans just don’t write their lawsuits very well.

    Maybe they should give some candy to the trial-lawyers.

  • Pablo

    A new article in Rolling Stone on how the right wing is planning on stealing the election for a third time! How surprising.

    Will the GOP’s campaign to deter new voters and discard Democratic ballots determine the next president?

    ACORN and Mickey mouse my ass.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Please SEE that voter fraud and disenfranchisement is not just an acorn problem, guys. And HERE.

  • Pablo

    BREAKING: HEAD OF CA GOP VOTER REGISTRATION OUTFIT ARRESTED FOR REGISTRATION FRAUD

    DB08:100

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Kate Folmar

    October 19, 2008 (916) 208-6521

    Secretary of State Debra Bowen Announces

    Arrest of Man Charged with Voter Registration Fraud

    SACRAMENTO – The owner of a signature-gathering firm that works across California was arrested in Ontario today on suspicion of committing voter registration fraud, Secretary of State Debra Bowen announced.

    Mark Anthony Jacoby, who owns the firm known as Young Political Majors (YPM), was arrested after allegedly registering himself to vote, once in 2006 and again in 2007, at an address where did not live. An investigation by the Secretary of State’s Election Fraud Investigation Unit revealed that Jacoby twice registered to vote at the address of a childhood home in Los Angeles although he no longer lived there.

    The Secretary of State’s fraud unit and the Ontario Police Department arrested Jacoby near an Ontario hotel just before midnight Saturday. An arraignment date has not been scheduled yet.

    “Voter registration fraud is a serious issue, which is why I vigorously investigate all allegations of elections fraud,” said Secretary Bowen, California’s chief elections officer. “Where there’s a case to be made, I will forward it to law enforcement for criminal prosecution.”

    For his business, Jacoby traveled California and a number of other states collecting petition signatures and registering voters. Under state law, signature-gatherers must sign a declaration stating that they are either registered to vote in California or that they are eligible to do so. Jacoby allegedly registered to vote at his childhood address to meet this legal requirement.

    Under California law, it is a felony punishable by up to three years in prison to register yourself when you are not entitled to vote and it is perjury to provide false information on a voter registration card.

    On October 3, the Public Integrity Unit of the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s office charged Jacoby with four felonies: two counts of voter registration fraud and two counts of perjury. A warrant was issued for his arrest and bail was set at $50,000.

    “This arrest wouldn’t have been possible without the hard work of the Ontario Police Department and Los Angeles District Attorney Steve Cooley’s office,” Secretary Bowen said. “I thank them both.”

    The Secretary of State’s Election Fraud Investigation Unit helps maintain the integrity of the electoral process by investigating allegations of election and voter fraud in California. Potential Elections Code violations brought to the unit’s attention are thoroughly investigated and referred to law enforcement officials for prosecution when there is sufficient evidence of wrongdoing. The Secretary of State’s office does not disclose information about the status of ongoing criminal investigations, but the information from a case that results in a criminal complaint filed by a county or state prosecutor is a public record.

    Anyone who has witnessed a violation of the California Elections Code is encouraged to contact the Secretary of State’s Election Fraud Investigation Unit at (800) 345-VOTE or http://www.sos.ca.gov/el…ions/elections_fraud.htm.

    ###

    ACORN MY ASS.

  • Pablo

    Incidentally regarding the above press release from the California Secretary of State’s office, this person was arrested for VOTER FRAUD. Unlike the right wing fear mongers on here talking about ACORN which if true (to my knowledge there have not been any actual indictments only an investigation)is voter registration fraud, a completely different animal.

    Your ACORN haters have been completely discredited not only in the MSM but by the blogosphere as well.

    Coming from Nalle its typical.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Re comment #70,

    Very interesting. Thus far, this does not seem to have reached the NYtimes, the LAtimes, CNN, MSNBC, ABC or others. It certainly should. A Google search did reveal the following link and this link and a few other “reliable sources.” Unfortunately, not all that many people get their “news” there.

    One might question why the right-leaning Main Stream Media have been so slow on the uptake. Perhaps later.

    The days (weeks, months . . . )following 4 November will certainly be at least as interesting as those preceding it.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Pablo

    Allow me to correct my own mistake before Dave’s boy Clavy jumps all over me. The guy was arrested for Voter Registration Fraud, not Voter Fraud, as I said.

  • Doug Hunter

    I agree with those who have stated that voter fraud is not widespread and is just a red herring being thrown up by Republicans. The issue is with voter turnout and disenfrachisement based on demographics.

    If everyone was compelled to vote the country would shift to the left so Dem groups are actively trying to encourage voter participation among those that usually will not participate. Republicans are trying to retain the status quo or even make it more challenging for people to be eligible to vote.

    If Dems get in control, which it appears they will, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a move to expand voting participation although compulsive voting is probably still off the table.

    So in the spirit of holding hands and singing cumbayah I’ll drop the lies and spin and get down to the truth. I’ll admit that I wish poor people and those that don’t contribute to society couldn’t vote on how the government should regulate and tax those of us that do. I’d love to ensure that only those with picture ID could vote, or even better that only those who pay income tax or own land could.

  • Pablo

    Dan said:

    “Thus far, this does not seem to have reached the NYtimes, the LAtimes, CNN, MSNBC, ABC or others”

    I know I am way ahead of those guys over at the MSM, as they are far too busy spreading their propaganda for the ruling elite. I am quite sure that Davey has not heard of it yet either, as he is too busy trying to make a mountain out of a molehill ala ACORN. Its the oldest trick in the book actually, point your finger whilst picking someones pocket. A typical Nallism.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Re Comment #72

    Well, now it has made the LA Times.

    Voter registration fraud is bad, regardless of by whom or on whose behalf it is accomplished. Anyone who is convicted of it should be punished severely.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Pablo, you really have some strange issues. I haven’t even posted on this thread in several days. How are my opinions even relevant to this discussion which I haven’t been contributing to?

    But for the record, I agree that individual prosecutions for voter registration fraud are ultimately fruitless. They allow ACORN to maintain this plausible deniability of the false division between the action of their workers and their policies which promote those actions.

    The way to take ACORN down is through the RICO laws, which was attempted in Ohio. The act of conspiring on a nationwide basis to commit fraud is the issue which needs to be pursued if the goal is to shut ACORN down.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    #77 Pablo, you really have some strange issues. I haven’t even posted on this thread in several days. How are my opinions even relevant to this discussion which I haven’t been contributing to?

    Could it be unrequited love? A desperate, romantic yearning turned bad? Maybe he needs a girl or guy in his own age-group, a peer, who might return his affections?

    But for the record, I agree that individual prosecutions for voter registration fraud are ultimately fruitless. They allow ACORN to maintain this plausible deniability of the false division between the action of their workers and their policies which promote those actions.

    The problem here, is proving prior knowledge sufficiently to pursue effective (as opposed to ineffectual) prosecution. ACORN has a lot of Legal types in their hierarchy, and you can bet they make sure the national organization is well-insulated. Lower-echelon people get caught, but the leadership is ‘safe’ because there’s no documentation linking them to the misdeeds, and nobody ‘mid level’ willing to testify or gather evidence. Since busting “Community Organizers” isn’t as sexy as busting mobsters, it’s unlikely that any legitimate (or viewed as legitimate) authority is going to conduct any sort of effective undercover penetration (as has been required for RICO prosecutions in the past). Since the direct motive of the leadership isn’t financial, there’s damn little paper trail that can be uncovered through financial investigations, and without serious penalties in Federal Law for Electioneering, there’s no reason for anyone to cooperate with a RICO investigation.

  • MaineIacinAK

    History suggests that ACORN’s antics might lead to “widespread voter disenfranchisement” of a different type. Imagine thousands of registered voters of a particular party not casting a ballot. What does that mean? It must mean they were PREVENTED FROM VOTING! VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT! FRAUD!

    If McCain wins, and it’s close, watch out. There will be riots in the streets, and screaming and pointing to the number of “registered voters” from these districts who didn’t cast a vote.

  • bliffle

    Has anyone shown that fraudulent registration leads to fraudulent voting? Has Mr. Mickey Mouse shown up at the polls to cast his fraudulent vote?

    Has anyone shown that ACORN TELLS their canvassers to make frudulent registrations.

    As I understand it, ACORN considers 20 registrations a day as the quota for canvassers. When their production drops to around 8-12 they are in danger of being fired.

    ACORN maintains a database of photo images of all registration forms for each canvasser and makes those available to voting authorities and DAs.

    By law ACORN must pass on registrations to voting authorities.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Has anyone shown that fraudulent registration leads to fraudulent voting? Has Mr. Mickey Mouse shown up at the polls to cast his fraudulent vote?

    Again, Bliffle, this is not the purpose of the fraudulent registrations. They are there to make registration verification impossible, not so that the fraudulently registered nonexistent people can vote.

    Has anyone shown that ACORN TELLS their canvassers to make frudulent registrations.

    As much as 80% of the registrations ACORN processes are fraudulent. That’s far too many to be coincidence. Even if it’s just because they hire criminals and drug addicts and pay them on a per registration basis without adequate supervision, that method of doing business is essentially designed to produce bogus registrations.

    As I understand it, ACORN considers 20 registrations a day as the quota for canvassers. When their production drops to around 8-12 they are in danger of being fired.

    A system guaranteed to generate fraudulent registrations.

    By law ACORN must pass on registrations to voting authorities.

    Not in all states, but so what? They wouldn’t be processing all of these registrations if they didn’t intend to turn them in.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    On consideration it seems quite likely that nothing will be done about ACORN until the FBI gets someone undercover in the organization as they did with subversive groups in the 60s or with the mob in several prominent instances. It’s going to take that kind of inside testimony to shut them down.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    You’re grasping at straws, Dave.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    It takes straw to make brick, Bliffle.

    Dave

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Read THIS and weep. And THIS.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Want MORE? and AGAIN .

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    How about this GEM?

  • bliffle

    I suspect that the FBI infiltrated ACORN many years ago, knowing their penchant for spying on leftist political organizations.

    What is remarkable is that no successful prosecutions developed.

  • Clavos

    Yet.

  • Cindy D

    More W.Va. voters say machines are switching votes In six cases, Democratic votes flipped to GOP

    This is the second West Virginia county where voters have reported this problem. Last week, three voters in Jackson County told The Charleston Gazette their electronic vote for “Barack Obama” kept flipping to “John McCain”.

    In both counties, Republicans are responsible for overseeing elections. Both county clerks said the problem is isolated.

    They also blamed voters for not being more careful.

    Those silly Obama voters.

  • Cindy D

    Lisa,

    That 1st one at #85 yikes!

  • Cindy D

    It’s already Stolen

    - Since the last presidential race, “States used dubious ‘list management’ rules to scrub at least 10 million voters from their rolls.”

    Among those was Paul Maez of Las Vegas, New Mexico – a victim of an unreported but devastating purge of voters in that state that left as many as one in nine Democrats without a vote. For Maez, the state’s purging his registration was particularly shocking – he’s the county elections supervisor.

  • Pablo

    Sure has been quiet on this forum lately regarding ACORN. Hmmm I wonder why.

    Could it be that the right wingers had one of their own caught red handed doing voter registration fraud in California. I know, I was the first guy on here to bring it to light.

    I just love how HYPOCRITICAL and smarmy most republicans are (neo-cons and yer typical main stream variety) when they get caught with their pants down.

    ACORN my ass

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “the FBI gets someone undercover in the organization as they did with subversive groups in the 60s or with the mob in several prominent instances. It’s going to take that kind of inside testimony to shut them down.”

    The mob was shut down?

    Pablo, surely they are doing research and working on hard on their articles of wrong-doing by the right in this matter because otherwise they would look like partisan hacks who don’t put country first.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The guy in California who was arrested wasn’t engaging in the same sort of activities as ACORN. He actually personally committed election fraud by all accounts, plus he seems to have been some sort of psycho/moron.

    Republicans just aren’t good at election fraud.

    And as for these voter purges, they are likely the direct result of what ACORN is doing – they may even be what ACORN is trying to provoke.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    Dave said:

    “Republicans just aren’t good at election fraud.”

    Now thats the funniest thing I have read in ages!
    I would call it chutzpha but the raw hypocrisy and arrogance is just toooooooo much!

    Thanks Dave, I just love it when you show your true colors, which is usually. smirk :)

  • Pablo

    Oh and by the way Dave, I was watching one of the MSM news channels tonight, and they had a story both on the 57,000 voters that were illegally culled from the rolls in Florida, and how the republicans are actually removing millions of voters across the states, in their third effort to fix the election. Thats MSM bubba, not my man Alex Jones.

    You can live in denial all you want, but the facts speak for themselves Nalle.

  • bliffle

    Clavos embarrasses himself again in #89:

    Referring to lack of prosecutions against ACORN despite all the accusations and FBI infiltrations:

    “Yet.”

    ACORN has been around about 25 years, Clavos, how long will it take for your sterling gossip-mongers to dig up some REAL evidence?

  • moon

    The ACORN stuff has been debunked ad nauseum on other internet sites–CommonDreams for one.

    But hope springs eternal in the breasts of the folks who use this site as a forum to just make stuff up.

    Same old same old.

  • http://jetsnewsviews.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Bliffle, didn’t you know that Obama founded ACORN in Hawaii when he was born before it was a state so he can’t run legally for president. He’s the direct descendant of a japanese pilot that crash landed after Pearl Harbor? His mother founded a terrorst group that smuggled terrorists in from Iraq, that’s why his middle name is Hussein, because she knew Saddam would be as powerful as he is way back in 1961!!!

    If you believe that, I’ll inform you that all registered Republicans have been requested by the Secretary of State to vote on Nov. 5th in order to eleviate the congestion in the pollinb booth lines.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo, I can say to your ‘illegal’ cullings the same thing that Bliffle says to the accusations against ACORN. They can’t be illegal because no one has been convicted or even prosecuted yet.

    And moon, Commondreams is anything but a credible source.

    What I find most amusing today about the ACORN business is that after Obama’s lies about his ACORN associations in the last debate, the former director of ACORN for Chicago came out and detailed his actual involvement, showing how he had misrepresented his association with them.

    The facts are established. What ACORN is up to is abundantly clear. You can lie like Obama and try to distance yourself, or you can fall back on halfwitted denials like Bliffle, but the truth will win in the end.

    Dave

  • moon

    Nalle,

    CommonDreams publishes mainstream articles.

    A lot of the folks are just plastic progressives, but even so it is considerably more credible than Blogcritics.

    Ad hominem arguments–of which your is one (dismissing the information because of the source–for example, you can’t be right because you are a lefty or your are an Indian or you are a academic or you are a PAID writer, etc etc etc), are not acceptable in debate.

    If you were not so closed-minded [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor], you would perhaps draw upon what’s left of your analytical abilities to CHECK IT OUT before dismissing it.

    It would also be appropriate to REFUTE something that is being argued rather than just taking your habitual approach and vilifying anything and anybody who doesn’t agree with you.

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Dave Nalle is not the measure of factual legitimacy.

  • Pablo

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] I will attempt to respond to several of my detractors.

    Comment 48 by Cannon:

    “Clavos, just remember- Pablo believes in the ‘Troothers, it’s not hard to see how he would believe in other looney conspiracy theory bullshit.”

    Aside from the fact that I do not believe in the tooth fairy (official government lie about 9/11), and that I do assert that for all intents and purposes that the CFR controls and directs US policy both domestically and internationally for their JP Morgan wall street friends, does not mean that the republican party through Katherine Harris and Choicepoint did not cull over 57,000 voters from casting their vote in Florida in 2000, most of which were ILLEGAL, ie that they had the right to vote.

    I have made your job a little easier cannon for you to research it yourself. Over 80 articles in the MSM about it for your perousal.

    How the republicans stole the 2000 election

    The above reference is for you too Bicho

    Post 65 by Dan(Miller)

    The embedded hyperlink is to WSJ.com, last time I checked this so called news organization is nothing more than a mouthpiece for Rupert Murdoch and company, and anything that they spew out is more than likely garbage on its face.

    Comment #77 by Dave Nalle:

    “Pablo, you really have some strange issues. I haven’t even posted on this thread in several days. How are my opinions even relevant to this discussion which I haven’t been contributing to?”

    Davey, you will always get special treatment from me for two reasons. The first being that you are the political editor of this website, and thus are held to a higher degree of scrutiny by me, and you are sadly lacking in any degree of lucidity, integrity, or quite frankly honesty. And since you have been raggin on for weeks about the ACORN bullshit, I include you in my comments. Not to mention since I first started writing on this site you personally attacked me instead of debating me on the issues. It would be one thing for a normal writer to attack me, but since you are the editor I find it repugnant and respond in kind.

    I do find it funny how you refuted Moon by saying that Commondreams is anything but a credible source. I wonder what you do think is a credible source. The National Review mayhaps? Or could it be Foreign Affairs magainze? God only knows what credible means to you. LOL

    Finally post #101 by Davey:

    “They can’t be illegal because no one has been convicted or even prosecuted yet.”

    Uhhh does that mean that if I have 20 acres out in the back 40 just oozing forth THC on sweet sinsemilla flowers about to harvest that they arent illegal cuz I havent been convicted or prosecuted yet? Is that what you mean Davey?

    Try using your head for a change.

    bye for now.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I have exhausted my patience with this whole “bubba” riff and now I’m done.

    Pablo – please knock it off now.

  • Pablo

    Once a bubba always a bubba I always say. :)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And since you have been raggin on for weeks about the ACORN bullshit,

    Actually, I’ve been on ACORN’s case for four years, Pablo, starting with their involvement in the massive fraud in the midwest states in the 2004 election. The rest of the world is just catching up.

    And Pablo, if you were paying any attention at all you’d have seen that #101 is merely an application of Bliffle’s lame argument in defense of ACORN as an equally lame argument in defense of the scrubbers, purgers and cagers.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    Don’t worry Christopher the censors here have already determined that using the phrase bubba can be a personal attack as I had several instances of this word deleted from the above post.

    The hypocrisy oozes out of the comments editor. I have been called so many names on here by the Political editor, including the following:

    nazi, tinfoil hat, nut, dumb, paranoid and others as well. Seeing as how this double standard has reached the level of absurdness, I will take this issue up personally with Eric Olson now. I have refrained in the past, but now its absurd. I have corresponded with Eric before, and found him to be alot more civil, and decent than the political editor on this site. I will report back what he has to say, after I have composed my email to him, and done enough research using google to bring up the countless instances of personal attacks that Nalle has sent my way, and not one of them ever has been rescinded.

    Not only were my refrences to certain bubbas censored, the editor didnt even have the decency to make a citation.

    I do want to thank you Mr. comment editor for showing me your double standard, which I have suspected for months now.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Pablo, you do know I’m the Comments Editor, right?

    I try to allow as much leeway as possible in the comments we publish, particularly in the rough house we know as BC politics.

    If you think I have made a mistake, by all means take it up with Eric if you wish. Or, if you are a signed up BC writer, you can contact me directly through our internal system and I am always happy to explain or reconsider my decision. I might not do anything different, but I will definitely reconsider.

    I think if you look carefully enough you’ll find that Dave gets edited as much as or, given the high number of comments he makes, possibly even more than most.

    however, as for “bubba”, it’s the constant repetition, to say nothing of the attitude it conveys, that has broken this boy’s back, so let’s just say it has outlived its usefulness and move on.

  • Pablo

    Christopher,

    So I guess tinfoil hat is ok eh? Or any of the other adjectives I referenced. I use bubba because that is the word that I choose to use. It certainly is not as offensive as many of the names that Nalle calls people on a constant basis, which I will reference fully in my letter to Eric, that disagree with him. You didn’t even have the decency to put in your edited by comments editor regarding the bubbas, bubba.

    Yes I will personally take this up with Mr. Olson, as you have shown yourself to be biased, and if bubba is a personal attack, then what’s not? huh?

    No I won’t move on.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    You’re right, I should possibly have put my standard [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] insert in, but there were so many instances it would have been tedious to read.

    Everyone is biased, indeed I think it is acceptable to be biased. Prejudice, however, is not.

    I think I’m maintaining a balanced approach and treat people from all perspectives equally, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. I rarely agree with Dave about much to do with politics for instance, but then I don’t agree with you either.

  • troll

    oi

    come on Chris – ‘bubba’ is Pablo’s calling card…you’ve overstepped here

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Well, troll, if Pablo is actually Jewish, maybe so, but I rather think it was the first meaning found in this extract from Wikipedia on the word bubba that was the meaning he intended.

    Because of its association with the southern part of the United States, bubba is often used outside the South as a pejorative meaning low economic status and limited education. The term “bubba” may also be taken to mean one who is a “good ol’ boy.”

    …At times it may be used as a term of endearment (or in an insulting sense) for a person who is rather fat or has a large body frame, especially for men.In popular culture it is often joked that new male prisoners will be locked up with a large guy called Bubba who will become sexually intimate with them.

    Bubba has also developed into a proper noun, used as a term of endearment, to describe someone who is especially lovable, adorable, etc. Also used to identify someone’s significant other (i.e “She’s my Bubba”.[citation needed]) It is said to have evolved from the word ‘baby’.Used predominantly in the Chicago area, specifically in the Edgewater/Andersonville neighborhoods.

    However, the word with the same meaning, exists both in Hebrew and in Yiddish. The word Bubba בובה ( pronounced boo- bah) which means ‘doll’ or ‘darling,’ is mainly used with in Jewish/Israeli circles, as an endearing word to describe a young girl,or in some cases a small male child.

    In Yiddish, most people use the popular Bubbale בובהלה ( pronounced boo-bah-lay) to mean ‘my darling’. It can also be used as a name or nickname for female pets in Hebrew. Some men use it in Israeli slang as a way of saying, ‘Hey Baby.’

    And, to end with another, more local, quote: “Please think of the comments as a conversation between individuals and interact with civility.” Sure, we argy and we bargy but this bubbery has got to stop, bubbale.

  • Clavos

    “reference” is not a verb…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I live in Texas. Around here being called ‘bubba’ is commonplace and is not considered an insult. It’s slang for ‘brother’ – equivalent to a yankee calling someone ‘bro’ or ‘buddy’ or for Christopher calling someone ‘mate’.

    Now, I realize Pablito means it as an insult, but all it does is show his ignorance of southern culture that he thinks it’s insulting. It’s actually kind of amusing because it suggests to the southern reader that he shares my beliefs and is expressing his solidarity with me.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    I am quite sure in your neck o the woods bubba is an endearing term Davey. Where I come from it is used to describe exactly the kind of person you are.

    If your curious, which I doubt that you are, I have used it because I have been personally attacked by you and you boy, for months, instead of either ignoring me or engaging me on the issues of the day.
    I bite back.

    I will leave it up to the owner of the site to decide, and should he decide in your favor, I will simply stop posting on this blog. I consider your behaviour hypocritical to the extreme, and very unbecoming for the political editor of the site. Perhaps you should do one or the other, as it is you do both terribly.

    I will find at least 30 instances of you Dave insulting a commentator, and see what Eric has to say. I did not do it earlier in the interest of civility, however I am being censored for saying
    Bubba for christ’s sake. LOL

    Is it any more of an insult for me to call you bubba, than for you to call me a tinfoil hat dude, particularly when bubba fits you to a t Davey boy. Not to mention all of the other instances of derogatory statements that you have sent my way along with your side kick Clavy.

    Just my two sense worth.

  • Cindy D

    Ah, boo-bah my former cat’s name. He was a male. What the heck do women care about standards, we always call men cute names. I have to take issue with that pronunciation of bubbale (pronounced boo-bah-lay)

    lay? long a? I have always heard it pronounced as boo-bah-lah. short a.

    Ruvy?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “it’s the constant repetition,”

    Where is that in the comment policy? Sure, it’s not as redeeming as say wishing the death of an elected official, but you might want to make it clearer in the language. Also, if annoying repetition is grounds for censoring, you should send the Doc in after some of your forays into the Music section.

    Take this ridiculous and arbitrary judgment off troll’s bridge

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    It’s easily covered by the guidelines because it was an insult.

  • pablo

    Yeah Chris? And what about all the insults that Nalle has sent my way bucko?

  • bliffle

    At last! Voter fraud exposed and a CONVICTION!

    Voter fraud conviction in texas

    Today, the criminal justice system sent a clear message to political operatives, lobbyists and fundraisers: Don’t mess with Texas elections. The Texas Association of Business, the state’s largest business organization, found out the hard way.

    The association pleaded guilty today to illegally funneling corporate money into the 2002 campaign, helping elect a slate of state Republican lawmakers. As its punishment, the association will have to pay a $10,000 fine. The association and others who would usurp the will of the people are on notice that these types of campaign finance violations will not go unpunished.

    We would like to commend Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle for vigorously pursuing the charges and Common Cause for joining Public Citizen in filing the complaint that led to today’s guilty plea. Credit also goes to Texans for Public Justice and Campaigns for People for helping research the complaint.

    Unfortunately, the people of Texas must deal with the consequences of the stolen 2002 election. The congressional redistricting after the election would not have occurred without the support of the candidates illegally backed by the Texas Association of Business.

    What happened in Texas underscores the need for substantial reform of our election laws. If a system to provide effective public financing of elections were in place, it would be more difficult for groups such as the Texas Association of Business to illegally influence the outcome of elections.

  • bliffle

    Dave confesses to having wasted his time for four years:

    “Actually, I’ve been on ACORN’s case for four years,”

    And turned up nothing.

    You need a better hobby, Dave. try flying 2-control 100″ wingspan high-start gliders. I bet Texas has just the kind of wide-open spaces and thermals for flying these beauties. Building them requires care and precision and flying these graceful flying machines is relaxing and greatly satisfying.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Pablo, Dave regularly gets his comments edited when he goes too far in his self expression.