So what is Zionism to me and why do I hate it so much? Avi Shlaim best describes my thoughts and feelings when he writes; ‘Israel’s illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories since 1967 is the basic problem… occupation distorted the natural course of mainstream Zionism. Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace. Post-1967 Zionism, however, both in its secular and in its religious varieties, developed a territorial obsession. It is not about values; it is about land. The obsession is to keep the whole of the Land of Israel in the hands of the Jewish people. This transformed the Zionist movement from a legitimate national liberation movement for the Jews into a colonial power and an oppressor of the Palestinians.’
The First Zionist Congress that took place in Basel, Switzerland (1897) declared that ‘the aim of Zionism is to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.’ Who could disagree with this statement? Not me. What I do vehemently disagree with is Israel’s violation of the democratic right of the Arab population to national self determination in Palestine. Post 1967 Zionism is an ugly ideology that legitimizes tyranny. ‘Part of the definition of being a Palestinian’ comments Eyad Sarraj in the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, ‘is being a refugee, living in exile, having your home destroyed, having to leave your land.’ There are those Zionists who argue that Palestinians are incapable of state-building and democracy as they do not represent a united front; inherently tribal in nature. Yet the tribal structure, argues Sarraj, exists today as a necessity rather than as a tradition; ‘It’s a kind of moral duty that people come together… the tribal structure gives you a sense of belonging and a sense of security. In the absence of a functioning state and the rule of law, there is no security except the tribe.’
To argue that Palestinians are incapable of state-building due to their tribal nature would be like arguing that Mr X always suffers from headaches as you continually whack him over the head with a hammer. Unfortunately, Israel has been whacking the Palestinians for over forty years now. Speaking about the former Prime Minister, Shlaim opines that ‘Ariel Sharon [personified] this xenophobic, exclusive, aggressive, and expansionist brand of Zionism… one of the greatest accolades in Judaism is to be a rodef shalom, a seeker of peace. Sharon is not that by any stretch of the imagination.’ Today, if one were to identify himself as someone who supports Zionism, one would also be making his peace with Mr Sharon. This is why I self-define as an anti-Zionist. Who can excuse this tyrant of his war crimes? Certainly not me. Sharon led (as an Israeli military officer) an attack on the West Bank village of Qibya in 1953, in which 69 civilians were murdered, and masterminded Israel's brutal 1982 invasion of Lebanon. That invasion led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians, massive displacement of the civilian population, and culminated in the infamous massacre of civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. The number of victims of this massacre, Palestinians and Lebanese alike, has never been officially documented. Israeli military intelligence estimated that 700 to 800 persons were slaughtered, but others put the count of the dead much higher, up to 3,000 people.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gordon,
Because you are yet a young man who may still have the ability to see without too much difficulty where a paradigm of his is erroneous, I'll go easy on you.
First of all, I posted this comment at Elvira Black's article on her problems getting a passport. Go to Youtube to see the video mentioned below.
Elvira,
I'd ask you to look carefully at the turn the comments have taken here and think about which other group gets slammed with "mildly offensive" terms.
A "much bigger dog" dragged this video in his jaws and dropped it in one of my articles, growling angrily at the Jew who did almost all the talking in it.
The title of the video was "Zionist insulting British Activist and Jesus". A slightly different version of the same video was called "Hebron Settler confronts British Journalists."
The bottom line here is that in Europe and on university campuses across your country, the word "Zionist" has replaced "kike", "sheeny" and "Christ-killer" as the "slur of choice." In essence, the name of the video that MBD bitched and whined about was "Kike insulting British Activist etc."
This means that whenever you see the word "zionist" on an anti-Israel or anti-Jewish website, the word "kike" should come to your head immediately - for that is what is meant.
One of the really nice things about living here, Elvira, is that the only place I see "kike," "Jew-bastard," or "Christ-killer" is on the web.
People who like to keep their teeth do not utter these words in Israel - unless they are Jews referring to the goyim who do.
The point of the comment here is that while you yourself may not manifest Jew-hatred within your heart, it is common within the UK to use the term "zionist" as a substitute for "kike" or "sheeny." This is no reflection on you personally. That is just the way it is. And you will get reactions based on that fact, just as Liam Bailey has elsewhere. Condemn Zionism and that is what will happen to you. Get used to it.
Now, to the meat of your article. Zionism is the movement that had as its motivation, the creation of a country of Jews is their ancient homeland - Israel. The creation of the State in 1948 was the fruition of the efforts of the Zionist movement, and the victory in 1967 was the total victory over its Arab enemies. Your complaint is the transformation of Zionism after this victory.
You point out, correctly that "Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace." You are talking about a secular movement that does not credit G-d with its success, but slaps itself on the back - "I did it!"
The victory in 1967 was the crowning achievement of that movement. Look at my article "In the Shadow of the Six Day War - Part I" and see that
From a country with a central section 10 miles wide, Israel had expanded to cover all the land from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, a broad and good land; it had conquered the Heights of Golan, so that never again would Syrian gunners bombard kibbutzim and towns in the north and force the inhabitants to sleep in underground bunkers; it had liberated the city of Jerusalem from foreign rule and re-united it under the rule of the only people who pray for the city's welfare daily, the Jewish people; it had conquered Gaza, an infectious nest of murderous terrorists; and as a security buffer, it had conquered the entire Sinai peninsula, ending forever the danger of a blockade of Israeli shipping in the south, as well as that of a massive land invasion that would overrun Ashkelon, Beersheva, and Tel Aviv. In addition to all this, most of the inhabitants of the territory that had been under Jordanian rule for 19 years waited at three bridges at the Jordan River, seeking to flee Israeli rule.
Note the point in bold in this paragraph. Hold it in your mind. Now let's continue with my analysis:
Rabbi Shlomo Goren, the Chief Rabbi of the IDF, wanted to build a synagogue on the Temple Mount. The opportunity to have Judea and Samaria nearly empty of Arabs stood before the leaders of Israel. Had a synagogue been built on the Temple Mount it would have cemented our claim to it, mosques and domes notwithstanding. Had the Arabs fleeing Israeli rule been allowed to leave, the settlement of Judea and Samaria would have been a far easier and less controversial task. It is likely that the territory would have been annexed to the State and living in Ma'aleh Levona (which where I live), for example, would be looked upon as normal, instead of theft of someone else's land by self righteous, finger-wagging foreigners, and ignorant Israelis who think they know better than G-d Himself.
But this is not what happened.
You (and Liam Bailey) are the finger wagging foreigner. The Israeli "academics" you cite are the ignorant Israelis who think they know better than G-d Himself what to do.
But let's move on:
Dayan blew up the bridges at the Jordan River, thus preventing the Arabs living in Judea and Samaria from leaving. So they left the sites of the blown up bridges, returning to their homes. The Israelis attempted a "light-handed" occupation, but there is no such thing as a light-handed occupation of a potentially hostile population being fed hate propaganda daily.
Because Dayan did not allow the Arabs at the Jordan River bridges to leave, he created the problem of wanting to "annex the land but not the people". He handed to the Arabs a legitimacy they would not have had otherwise in demanding the land for themselves and undermined any Jewish claim to our land. He built the stool upon which the PLO stood, the stool upon which Hamas stands. His act was an act of rank cowardice that has cost thousands of Jewish lives in the last forty years, not to mention thousands more Arab lives.
Dayan, the secular Jew - just like those pathetic Israeli academics you admire - had no concept at all of what the religion of Israel demands of us. He thought he knew better than G-d Himself what to do. And Zionism, the movement of secular Judaism, could do nought but transform itself into a territorial holding corporation that was to become odious in the eyes of the world.
Zionism is finished. It accomplished its big task - creating a refuge for the People of Israel and allowing for a relatively painless expulsion of the previous inhabitants. Now it is dying. But, seizing an illusion from someone is as dangerous as seizing a cub from a tigress. And many Jews continue to believe in an illusion.
So, you are beating a dead horse. Are you Sherlock Holmes that you wish to determine how many injuries may be produced in a corpse?
Gordon, there are three more installments of my series on the shadow the Six Day War casts. please be patient, while the BC editors mull them over. Many questions that you have will be answered there.
2 - Little Bo peep
Are you people nuts? You little jew-haters are sooo cute!
3 - Graham McKnight
Ruvy,
I mean you no offence, but I do not believe in the concept of nonsensical beings such as God. As such, God does not serve as an adequate explanation to both myself and others when we examine the course of a nation's history.
It may interest you to know that having lived in the UK all my life, the term 'Zionist' has never been used in my presence to signify a hatred of Jewish people, the word 'Jew' itself (when spoken in a particular tone) is the favoured racial slur word. The reason for this is simple, I could ask my girlfriend (for example) to define for me what the word 'Zionist' means, and she will not know. This is because the term 'Zionist' is used mostly in academic circles over here, and is thought of as a certain political ideology rather than as a term for an ethnic group. Put it this way Ruvy, if the term 'Zionist' really was a racial slur word in my country, I would not use it in my articles.
As for me being a 'finger wagging foreigner', why should this serve as an obstacle? I am either poorly informed or highly informed, but not a 'finger wagging foreigner'. To deny someone the oppertunity to critically engage with events that take place in a different part of the world would be counter-productive in many respects.
On a side note; Ruvy, you would get along well with my step-mother. She fears this God as much as you do and shares your nationalist sentiments. The only differences between you both is that she is Christian and British, whereas you are Jewish and Israeli. I often ask myself why these differences must divide humanity in the ways that they do. They are imagined concepts that kill.
4 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Stan,
Unless I'm wrong, the fellow who threatened Graham is a resident of the UK. He looks forward to blocking Graham's tenure (go to Liam Bailey's article on Gaza before Chris removes the comment). So it is English constitutional law that he has to deal with, not the provisions of the constitution of 1788 of the United States.
And Graham, by threatening something precious to this person, has threatened him. Again, go to Liam's article on Gaza to see what has gotten this fellow in such a huff. It is two very short statements ensconced in two separate comments.
"I find it entirely reasonable to assert that 'an Israeli state should not exist at the expense of an indigenous Palestinian one'."
and
"Hatred may very well be a strong word, but I feel that I am able to justify myself adequately as a hater of nations that oppress a people's right to self-determination. I have made it perfectly clear in the past that this hatred is extended to any and all nations that unjustifiably oppress, in this case it just so happens that we are discussing Israel."
Graham's lame comment that one of his tutors is a Jew will not help him here.
5 - STM
Ruve, then he could find himself in even deeper shit than just a banning on BC. The Poms are red hot on personal abuse.
6 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Stan,
I was going to comment more extensively, but I smell a nasty legal fight brewing here. Let it stand that several different jurisdictions with several different standards are involved, and were a legal fight to break out, one of the parties involved could be a corporate entity of one sort or another operating under the laws of the State of Ohio and the United States.
With that, sir, I shall retrieve my "glove" and retire from this particular branch of the discussion. Now do be a good Englishman and have a pinch of snuff... (Aye, mate, 'twas offered to me by the Geordie who lives in the village)
When my other two articles on the Shadow of the Six Day War are brought to light here, I invite you all to come over and browse. Ahead of their release, I return to the assertion I made to Graham in comment #1:
Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.
7 - STM
I think Zionism occurred simply as a nationalist movement fed by the holocaust and western intransigence around the time we discussed earlier - when we disagreed on Britain's role, and we'll possibly have to stay disagreed on that. Now, I feel, what's done is done, and it's a matter of survival both for Israel and the Palestinians.
It would be nice if both parties could get to a table somewhere, bury the hatchet (preferably not in each other's brains), and work things out.
I won't hold my breath on that score, though. But it would be nice. BTW, I think Graham would be best to just cop it on the chin. I guess he could take it further, as there have been cases where being a US website doesn't offer protections overseas, but he'd be a silly bugger if he did.
Stay cool Graham, we've all copped a razzing somewhere along the line for things we've written here. It just goes with the turf, methinks ...
8 - Graham McKnight
Ruvy you say that 'Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.'
If this is true, why are there people on these forums willing to break laws in order to inflict pain and suffering upon me?
The actions of these people (who don't reveal their true identities as I do) only stand to reinforce my beliefs.
Let me repeat for those who don't bother reading articles and head straight into 'attack mode' that: 'The First Zionist Congress that took place in Basel, Switzerland (1897) declared that 'the aim of Zionism is to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.' Who could disagree with this statement? Not me. What I do vehemently disagree with is Israel's violation of the democratic right of the Arab population to national self determination in Palestine. Post 1967 Zionism is an ugly ideology that legitimizes tyranny.'
9 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Stan,
We will remain disagreed on the role Britain played in the development of the State. And gentlemen can agree to disagree. Whatever my disagreements with you, pay close attention to the words of your late father. He sounds to have been a highly intelligent man.
But going beyond that, Zionism was a seed planted in Judaism and in Jews long before the first works propounding it appeared in Britain in the 17th or 18th Century, works authored by Christians, by the way.
These are Biblical concepts, and are reflected in the blessings in the Amidá, a standing prayer at least 1,700 years old recited three times daily by observant Jews.
"Sound the great Shofar for our freedom, work a miracle to gather in our exiles, and gather us from the four corners of the earth. Blessed are You HASHEM, Who gathers in the dispersed of His people, Israel."
"Restore our judges (the Sanhedrin) as in the beginning, and our counsellors as at first, and rule as a King over us, You Alone, in kindness and compassion..."
"And to Jerusalem, Your city, in compassion return, and dwell within her as You have spoken; and build her soon in our own days for eternity, and may the Chair of David be quickly repaired within her..."
"Desire, HASHEM, Your people Israel and their prayer, cause to return the service of fire offerings in Your House..."
"May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in compassion. Blessed are You, HASHEM, Who restores His Presence to Zion"
This, from the Grace After Meals, recited after eating EVERY meal with bread:
Psalm 126 in its entirety (on Sabbaths an Festivals), or Psalm 137 in its entirety on weekdays.
"Have mercy, HASHEM, on Israel, Your people; on Jerusalem; Your city, on Zion, the resting place of Your Glory; on the monarchy of the house of David, your anointed; and on the great Holy House upon which Your Name is called..."
"The Compassionate One! May He break the yoke of oppression on our necks and lead us in dignity to our Land..."
Are you getting the idea Stan? Graham? This is the source of Zionism. It was this that inspired the agnostic socialist David Green when he made his speeches in the synagogues in Poland a century ago urging his co-religionists to return with him home. So, how great is the treason of Israelis who now reject the work of David Green, the man who was to become the first prime minister of this nation? What fools are Jews who in their arrogance from their roosts in exile, and this includes at least one of our own number here on Blogcritics, when they reject the homeland that their ancestors prayed for and died for?
Zionism is dead not because of the Arabs, who are merely the hammer in the hand of our real enemies, the ruling elites of Europe and America. Zionism is dead because it refused to cement our claim to the Temple Mount - where the House of Splendor of G-d WILL be located. Zionism is dead because in the hour of victory, we did not allow the fleeing Arabs to leave, so that we might settle the land that G-d gave us.
So, in the not too distant future, the State will fall - and another Jewish entity, the Kingdom of David, shall arise.
10 - Graham McKnight
Ruvy!
You ask 'What fools are Jews who in their arrogance from their roosts in exile, and this includes at least one of our own number here on Blogcritics, when they reject the homeland that their ancestors prayed for and died for?'
Even the most assertive critics of zionism (such as myself) cannot deny that it was once a great ideology. You know that I say as much in my article. We (the critics) do not deny the diaspora from returning, what we deny is Israel's stomping on the heads of the natives, especially when taking into consideration the events of 1967 and beyond.
Aside from that fact, I wish to suggest that you (and people like you) will not meet me (and people like me) on the same level. We simply cannot if you continue to reference and credit the Tanakh. Doing this effectively ignores the frustrations of secular types.
11 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"Ruvy, you say that 'Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.'
If this is true, why are there people on these forums willing to break laws in order to inflict pain and suffering upon me?"
Gordon,
My essays on the shadow of the Six Day War were not written with you in mind, and you have raised a legitimate question that does indeed deserve an answer.
In my first comment, I wrote,
"You point out, correctly that Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace.' You are talking about a secular movement that does not credit G-d with its success, but slaps itself on the back - 'I did it!'"
For a century or more, Zionism has been the "religion" of secular Jews. It doesn't require wrapping leather straps around your arm each morning, you can enjoy ham, bacon and shrimp and still be a good Zionist, you do not have to abstain from driving to the countryside on a sunny Saturday morning to enjoy the fresh air. You can smoke pot, sleep with anyone you wish, and still be a good Zionist.
How do I know such things? Because, except for the pot smoking and eating ham (which I detest), the above description is me thirty years ago!! I was a proud member of the youth wing of the Israeli political party AHdút Avodá, headed by the late Yig'ál Allón (the author of the Allon Plan).
The objective fact of the matter is that Zionism, as a movement, is collapsing, as is its creation, the State of Israel. But, as I wrote you in comment #1, "seizing an illusion from someone is as dangerous as seizing a cub from a tigress. And many Jews continue to believe in an illusion."
Trust me. They have a harder time accepting what I write than you do. It means that there IS a G-d, and that they WILL be held to account for their actions, and that the prophecies in the Tana"kh may very well come true without sufficient repentance (as appears to be the case).
But when THEY argue with me, and tell me that I'm reading them out of the faith, or some such nonsense, I ask them, "what the fuck are you doing whining about Israel if you don't want to accept the reason you are here (or that you support Israel)? Without the Torah, this is just a damned real estate dispute! We could live anywhere! Why live here? Why not Long Island, where at least we can go to New York and enjoy Broadway plays? Hell, why not Australia?
That usually shuts the discussion down. Because before the kibbutzim in the Galilee, there was Hatzor and Megiddo. Long before the Cinématique in Jerusalem, there was the Temple on the Temple Mount. Long before cars and buses sped along Highway 60 in Judea and Samaria, there was the Road of the Patriarchs carrying camels, mules, and foot traffic from Hebron going north, passing west of Jerusalem (on what is now known as the Hebron Road) and continuing north to Sh'khem. And, just for your own entertainment, look in the Book of Ezekiel and learn the root of the name of the city, Tel Aviv. Anyone who really understands the Bible and who understands what kind of a place the city of Tel Aviv is will get a good laugh - even if he is not a Jew.
Religious Jews have an even harder time - because I'm rubbing the Bible they say they believe in in their faces.
So there you are, Gordon. And just so you fully comprehend, here religion is politics and politics is religion. That's just the way it is. And for a century, Zionism has been a religion.
12 - Graham McKnight
Ruvy,
Thankyou! I understand what you trying to describe to me now.
13 - Zedd
Zionism is a cult. It has all the markings of a cult organization. But because Jews have managed to get immunity from ANY criticism by misapplying the tag of anti-semitism, this extremely dangerous cult persist without being adequately shunned.
This cloak from constructive criticism is a disabling mechanism. Much like a spoiled brat, who developed into an unproductive adult because he lacks the tools to cope with reality, Zionists are coddled into a dysfunctional state. Like the useless adult who leans on his parents because he lacks the tools to survive, they weigh on the entire Israeli society, still being coddled and never being justifyably disciplined.
Like most extremist groups they somehow espouse the unspoken views of a lot of people in society. However in this case they are not chided. They are allowed to forge forward with their endless temper tantrum, destroying nations and contributing to the death of thousands around the world.
14 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zedd,
Don't waste bandwidth talking about things you obviously are ignorant about. You are an intelligent woman and you are embarrassing yourself peddling your mis-perceptions of Zionism and of the society I live in, and of the Jewish people for that matter... Whether you are indeed a racist is a question I'll not consider at the moment.
Zionism has been the motive force of Israeli society. Zionists built the Histadrut (Federation of Hebrew Labor in the Land of Israel), the Jewish Agency, the Jewish National Fund, the Egged Bus Cooperative, Bank haPoalim (which provided capital funding in an era when nobody would invest in any enterprise here), Solel Boneh, which built everything from the ma'abarot that held new immigrants in the 1950's to the apartment buildings in Armon haNetziv in the 1970's. Zionists developed the Zim Line, which brought hundreds of thousands of people to these shores, as well as El Al, which is the safest airline on the face of the earth.
Zionists founded the Hebrew University, both its campus at Mount Scopus and later at Giv'at Ram, Hadassah Hospital, Technion in Haifa, and a host of newspapers, from Ha'aretz, Davar (now out of circulation), Ma'ariv, and Yediot AHronot, as well as the Jerusalem Post. Zionists developed the best health care system in the Middle East, a system of childcare that is still the basis of childcare in the country, and for 50 years or more ran collective farms and villages that were the envy of the world.
This is in addition to draining swamps, fighting British bureaucrats, Circassian thieves, Arab murderers, and building what HAD been the finest fighting force and intelligence service in the Middle East.
Zionists took this patch of backward trash of the Ottoman Empire and turned it into the place where you can see the lights at night when you fly over the Middle East. The standard of living in 1920 was that of a trash can, and today it is similar to Italy. We have accomplished in 80 years what many nations have yet to approach.
Zionists created Israeli society, Zedd, and the State of Israel is the achievement of the Zionist movement. That is what "Zionists coddled into a dysfunctional state like the useless adult who leans on his parents because he lacks the tools to survive," accomplished.
If only South Africa could pull that off, eh, Zedd?
15 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Graham,
I apologize for calling you Gordon. I don't know what came over me - could it have been a senior moment?
I glad you are beginning to understand the points I'm making.
16 - Dave Nalle
I think Zedd is taking the common position among people on the Ameircan left that the time of legitimate zionism is past and that those who claim to be zionists today have a much more nefarious agenda, that they could more realistically be called Israeli ultra-nationalists who endorse the destruction of any group or nation which challenges Israel in any way.
The belief is that those who take the name of zionism today, when the legitimate goals of zionism have all been achieved, are part of a racist, expansionistic and oppressive movement which is nothing like zionism as originally conceived.
Dave
17 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Hopefully, Dave, you got my e-mail (as a Blog Critic Editor) on the other two portions of my series that are being held up. That article explains why Zionism is a dying ideology, and how it was killed off. Get them out, and you'll see there what went wrong with Zionism.
If you check out the first comment on part II of "In the Shadow of the Six Day War" and read the link, the article by Avner Yehuda in the Jerusalem Post, you'll see what happens when "practical" people fuck up the fate of their country.
Zedd owes you one for trying to pull her fat out of the fire and restating her position in slightly more intelligent fashion. It would be nice if she tried to do that herself - she is a grownup, not a useless adult who leans on her parents because she lacks the tools to survive.
18 - zingzing
as for dave's #16...
i would agree with lots of that, although i think the point is that the original goals of zionism have morphed into straight-up dangerous nationalism, much like that of nazi germany. before you go off, i'm just talking about nazi germany's "germany for germans" idea, and not the "kill all the jews and desenters, make a master race, take over europe" stuff involved.
israel has become war-like, because it has to, but they (and ruvy) seem to take some amount of pleasure in it. it's like both sides (israel, islam) don't even want to stop killing each other. they just like it too much. the rest of the world sees it as highly dangerous, and in an effort to "stabalize" the region, we go in and make all sorts of war as well. it's just sickening.
if the jews and the muslims would quit their bickering, the world would be a better place. how's that for obvious? the very basic fact is that if everyone could step back and learn to live together, the quality of life for everyone involved would go through the roof.
why do the jews want to "own" jerusalem? why do the muslims want the same? because they want to live there? then live there! it's so fucking simple it drives me to distraction. i know the politics of the region are incredibly complex. i can't understand them all. the answers, however, to the political problems are blatantly obvious.
19 - Graham McKnight
Zingzing,
If only...
20 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zing,
When you finally read the last portion(s) of my piece on "In the Shadow of the Six Day War," you'll have some idea what Zionism has truly morphed into. It is definitely not nationalism. Have patience, please.
"All in good time, my pretty, all in good time..."
21 - zingzing
i know, graham, but why the hell not?
22 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Graham, Zing,
Parts III and IV of my series are finally published. I invite you to read both and feel free to comment. As I said, many of your questions about Zionism, and why it is a dying institution will be answered there.
However, I suggest you read part III AND the comment which I added at the end. The editor saw fit to gut the article, and I had to restore the parts he gutted to make clear what the article was talking about...
23 - Dave Nalle
Zing, I bent over backwards to avoid the nazi comparison and there you go making it anyway. Now that the door is open, I have to add that I think that the Israelis learned a little too much from the nazis. It's a classic case of having to become what you most hate in order to fight against it.
Dave
24 - Esteban
The problem with Israel is Israel. The Zionists (proper) sought a Jewish homeland in Palestine, which hadn't existed in almost 2,000 years. Palestine was multi-cultural, but was overwhelmingly Arab at the time that the Zionists were forming their ideas. The Iroquois may as well make plans to take their territory back from the United States. Except that their homeland was stolen merely hundreds of years ago. And obviously that is not going to happen.
But the western powers partitioned off a chunk of Palestine and gave it to the Jews. What followed was a disgrace to humanity, on both sides. The short version is that creating Israel in the first place was a huge mistake. The reaction to Israel, first of all, was predictable, if unreasonable. The Arabs, whose back yard this state was being created in, made their intentions and objections known, and were ignored.
But still a bigger problem is this: why is there an Israel at all? A Jewish homeland? What's a Jew? What differentiates a Jew from an Arab? Nothing. Nothing but a stubborn belief in a different set of fairy tales. Pure insanity. Pre-Israeli Palestine, before the Zionists started making their moves, was a relatively peaceful place that saw Jews, Christians and Arabs all living in relatively close quarters. When the Zionists arrived and started their initial movements towards securing the Lebensraum, that's when things turned ugly.
Obviously both sides of this issue are maintained by nutcases. Anyone who allows themselves to be led around by their favorite fairy tales is officially insane, in my opinion.
But the fact remains that creating Israel where it was created in the way it was created at the time it was created was a huge mistake, and was done over the vociferous and clear objections of the people who already lived in the area. That was the mistake. Everything since then is just one-upsmanship in terms of who can make that mistake even bigger.
25 - Graham McKnight
Esteban, the Western powers did not 'give it to the Jews', Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel in 1947 after the British mandate in Palestine ended. There is a difference.