Or how a once noble ideology lost itself to tyranny.
What a bed of nettles! Firstly, one should make clear their intentions in dealing with such a sensitive issue; I happen to largely disagree with Israeli foreign policy and would like to discuss some of these disagreements in writing with you, dear reader. Yet in disagreeing with Israeli foreign policy one must not be thought of as anti-Semitic, as is often the case when conversing with those who support Israel’s violent militarism.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Zedd
Ruvy
Most cults are highly productive. I don't know what their physical efforts have to do with the fact that they see themselves to have a special position with God. Like all cults. All cultists do the same thing no more, no less, the exact same thing. I know, I know but they REALLY are special with God...... sigh. Its a cult! Must cults have some sort of a promise land Ruvy its part of the pattern, an they are willing to die for it.
I have love for Jewish people. I have broken bread with Jews on special holidays in order to learn the culture and to partake in the beauty of these wonderful people.
The Branch Davidians accomplished a great deal in the short time of their existence. Jim Jones built a thriving society in the jungles of Giana in a few years. Heck all of the Arab kook groups do a lot for their society. Hezbollah is fantastic and feeding and clothing the poor. What is your point?
Your easy cop out of using the term racist whenever someone doesn't like, trust, or agree with a Jewish group is silly. It speaks more to YOUR inability to reason and your lack of understanding of what racism is. There are many Jews who think Zionists are crazy.
The truth is that the entire planet is wrapped up in the Israeli issue, thousands are dying, thousands more are oppressed, we live in fear because of the hard headed, self absorbed ideas of Zionists.
What is pitiful is that the most thinking people will not address this issue because they are afraid of being called racists because as you have attempted to do, many Jews don't want to be told NO! You are bratty Ruvy. NO! Now adjust! That is not racist its good for you and the rest of the planet..... geez!
Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn't really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.
27 - Israeli rights
You people are racists. No amount of truth and reason will change your irrational hatred of Israel and Jews. Good thing that Israelis don't have to rely on people like you for their security. Jews fight back now. Deal with it.
28 - sr
Zedd, just looked up intellectual intelude with my friend Webster. The definition is. Fuck. Excuse me I'll be right back soon as I kill this frecking fly flying around my office. Damn little bastard. Always wondered how those animals in the bush can stand these little pricks all over their face. You would think they would buy some OFF or something. Just whacked the little prick. Zedd back to the definition. It says up your ass Zedd. Thanks for waiting and may the flies from hell swarm all over your face. JEWS RULE, ALWAYS HAVE ALWAYS WILL.
29 - Zedd
sr
Thanks
30 - Zedd
Ruvy / Dave
I meant what I said. Dave I am not of the left. I think independently. Read my comments sometimes.
Dave you did however make some good points, that is not what I was saying.
The Zionist mission is irrational and would not be tolerated if it was held by any other group on the planet. It certainly does not support modern day methods of structuring governance and nation systems.
Ruvy you have to admit that Zionists have been enabled. THAT is not racists it is just stating the obvious.
31 - Zedd
Dave
How do you reconcile your views about he American religious movement into politics and your views on Zionism. Just curious (really)
32 - Dave Nalle
Um, have I stated my opinion on zionism?
I don't see zionism as a religious movement, either in the beginning or today. It was always a nationalistic movement, but nationalism for those who are without a nation seems a lot nicer than nationalism for those who are trying to expand their territory and infringe the rights of others.
As for my take on zionism, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Jews to have a homeland. I don't think it's reasonable for them to abuse their neighbors any more than it would be for other countries. But at the same time I think the original geographic limits set on Israel when it was created were unreasonable given the size of its population and the ecologically exhausted conditions of the region.
At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area. They also deserve a decent place to live, but there just isn't enough worthwhile land in the area that isn't already claimed. To be painfully honest, those Palestinians who can't pay their way out, or find a way to become Israeli citizens ought to be distributed throughout the nations of the region as part of their laboring underclass. A lot of the prosperous gulf nations need people to work in the service industries and they ought to be hiring Palestinians. That they largely prefer not to discredits a lot of their opportunistic lip-service to the cause of Palestine.
And BTW, I think there are religious groups within judaism which are just as dangerous as some of the Christian extremists we have here in America, but they are a separate problem from zionism.
My views of the whole situation are complex, but in a nutshell, I think Israel should exist and have reasonable boundaries, it should leave its neighbors the hell alone, and the rest of the Arab nations of the region should find a way to deal with the Palestinians other than deliberately forcing them to stay where they are just as a means of harassing Israel.
Dave
33 - Zedd
Dave
Thanks
"At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area."
Why do you say this.
Also you do realise that the reason for Zionists claiming that particular land is because of their religious belief. Which makes them a religious organization. They would not have accepted Lithuania as a homeland Dave.
I don't understand the IDEA of a religious group having a homeland. Explain that idea and why it works within the scheme of your views on ideology.
34 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zedd,
As I said, you are an intelligent woman who is embarrassing herself making assertions about things she knows nothing about. And indeed you know nothing about Jews, Israel or Zionism.
For the roots of Zionism, read comment #9 on this article, and for a general description of its nature, read comment #11. Then read my four articles on the shadow of the Six Day War, making sure to read comment #1 in Part III of the series.
Who knows? Maybe you'll learn something?
Of course, if you want to be like a half drunk Jew at a kiddush table, you'll continue on as you have been, going blah blah blah and making no sense at all.
35 - Graham McKnight
Zedd says that: 'Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn't really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.'
And she is correct.
36 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zedd,
'Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn't really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.'
Pay attention! I know you have trouble with long posts so I'll make this real short. Nowhere on this comment list have I called Graham a racist or Jew-hater. Others have. But I have not. I have told him that in attacking something precious to Jews - a paradigm of self identity that allows them a nation of their own - he'll be attacked in turn.
Being a resident of the UK, he has chosen a lousy time to air these particular views. His elders have taken a series of decisions that reveal their own Jew-hatred, and for speaking his mind, he'll be attacked, and to the degree possible, victimized. He has been threatened by those who would work to deny him tenure at any university he seeks it. That is a real threat to one who may seek employment in the academic world.
I have not told him to shut his gob. I have not called him stupid. I most certainly have not called him a racist. I have attempted to educate him about this subject.
Note Graham's words in comment #12.
"Ruvy,
Thankyou! I understand what you trying to describe to me now."
Graham may not agree with me. But he is at least trying to understand. Take a leaf from the young man and learn from him.
37 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Dave writes,
"To be painfully honest, those Palestinians who can't pay their way out, or find a way to become Israeli citizens ought to be distributed throughout the nations of the region as part of their laboring underclass. A lot of the prosperous Gulf nations need people to work in the service industries and they ought to be hiring Palestinians. That they largely prefer not to discredits a lot of their opportunistic lip-service to the cause of Palestine."
He summarizes,
"...in a nutshell, I think Israel should exist and have reasonable boundaries, it should leave its neighbors the hell alone, and the rest of the Arab nations of the region should find a way to deal with the Palestinians other than deliberately forcing them to stay where they are just as a means of harassing Israel."
For an American who spent his childhood among Arabs, and who generally is sympathetic to their side of things, that is a reasonable assessment to come to. But Dave is an American shooting coyotes in Texas. How about the local Arabs who have to live with the consequences of his words?
That is what makes this article from Benador Associates so interesting.
Let's look at an excerpt.
During a conference, I once suggested the following as a topic for discussion:
How do you see the Arab region without the Arab-Israeli conflict in 2010, assuming that the issue has been solved pursuant to a formula that is acceptable to the Arab side?
The idea was not welcomed, not because it was an unacceptable wish but because it was difficult to imagine. How can a nation that has lived for seven decades with a distinct enemy and with one [dominating] issue imagine otherwise?
The truth is that I had begun to doubt that the region can live without coming up with a necessary enemy to divert attention away from local and regional issues. The Israeli enemy has always been a false target for regimes and organizations, and Palestinian liberation remained the project that topped all issues. In the name of Israel and Palestine, many crimes have been committed,
civil life disrupted and terms and powers of regimes extended. In the name of this cause, the rights of citizens were seized and wars fought. Saddam invaded Kuwait (to the south) in the name of Palestine (to the east). Furthermore, Also in the name of Palestine, the local situations in both Jordan and Lebanon were abused, demonstrations in Sanaa for food were suppressed, the emergency regime in Syria remained and statements by Arab countries from Bahrain to Morocco were enriched with promises to confront the enemy. All surrounding issues were linked
in the name of Palestine. Professional associations publicly abandoned their duties in the name of the issue. So, having based their existence, positions, leaderships and literature on the enemy, how can we imagine that those
institutions can adapt when the day comes that we no longer have an enemy?
Dave talks about the refusal to adequately care for the Arab refugees of the War of Independence, and this man talks about the refusal of the Arabs to imagine themselves without a Zionist enemy. These are two sides of the same coin - the coin of self deception.
Were the Israeli regime not dominated by criminals, and were the Arabs not dominated and mentally demonized by the coin of self deception, a modus vivendi and a peace agreement could be reached by all the Children of Abraham within weeks. The truth of the matter is that the major issues all render themselves to simple solutions - simply not the solutions bruted about in the mainstream media by the servants of the family of ibn Saud, that's all.
Just as I can imagine a total war here, I can imagine a comprehensive peace. But reread the conclusions of Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed above.
"having based their existence, positions, leaderships and literature on the enemy, how can we imagine that those institutions can adapt when the day comes that we no longer have an enemy?"
38 - Esteban
Actually, the UN came up with the original partition plan for Israel. But for decades, the Zionist movement had been flooding the region with immigrants in an attempt to overwhelm the existing population in Palestine. They initially set up settlements in relatively unpopulated areas, and even did some nice things like reclaim arid land and make it arable again. Awww...isn't that sweet?
However, their goal was always the same: to overwhelm the region with Jews to legitimize their claim to a homeland. As this progressed, tensions increased, and violence erupted periodically. The non-Zionist Jews who already lived in the region-- not surprisingly --were none too happy with these interlopers on their religious crusade, which is all that this was.
If you think Israel is justified in its existence, you have a logic problem. That problem is this: where do you stop? Will you carve off a slab of Romania and create the Gypsy homeland? Will you carve off a piece of Iraq for the Kurds? Will you carve off lots of pieces of the U.S. for all of the different tribes that were ejected from their homelands just a few hundred years ago?
The Zionists are religious racist nutcases. It's all about Lebensraum for the Chosen People and that sickens me. If you aren't sure about that, ask yourself this: how many pro-Israeli folks have you met who give a damn about far greater injustices being perpetrated all over the world? They'll tell you how bad the Arabs are, how unfair they are, how the Israelis are just defending themselves, and how they are the good guys so we should support them. But they aren't out drumming up support for the people of the world who face far, far worse situations, far greater evils. Somehow, shockingly, the only "injustices" they are interested in have to do with Israel. Hmm...perhaps they are not disinterested and impartial judges of the situation. Just a wild guess.
As for the idea that Israel doesn't depend on people like me for its survival...think again. Check the direction the money and weapons are flowing in the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Check the tacit acceptance by the U.S. of the rampant spying that Israel conducts in this country. Even when they sold our nuclear secrets to the freakin Chinese...what happened? Nothing. America is, in a nutshell, Israel's bitch. It sickens me.
I don't dislike Israel's current position any more than I dislike the Arabs'. They're both completely full of shit, and all they have to do to bring this to an end is stop killing each other and allow the people that were displaced when Israel made its (ostensibly) defensive land grab to move back into their homes. End of story. The reason Israel is such an irritation to me is that the U.S. so unconditionally backs them up in their feud with the Arabs, despite the fact that there is no reason to support one group over another.
39 - Dave Nalle
"At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area."
Why do you say this.
Because the Palestinians are culturally indistinguishable from most of the Arabs in the region and could be relocated with no particular harm to their society. Most of them migrated into the area relatively recently, and those who were serious about staying have found a way to live with Israel or in Israel.
Also you do realise that the reason for Zionists claiming that particular land is because of their religious belief. Which makes them a religious organization. They would not have accepted Lithuania as a homeland Dave.
Is it religious or cultural? Jews are not just a religious group. They're a culture and a nation and to some degree an identifiable ethnicity. Religion may be a unifying factor, but the primary acceptable argument for their current location is that it's where they lived the last time they were settled anywhere as a politically identifiable group, plus there was a significant Jewish population already present in the area.
Religion is just a part of the larger culture.
Dave
40 - Esteban
Arabs dominated Palestine demographically speaking at the time that the Zionists began their crusade. Overwhelmingly the largest population segment. And Arabs had controlled the area for hundreds of years, until the Ottoman Empire fell. In fact, you have to go back nearly 2,000 years, to before the arrival of the Romans, to find the last Jewish state in the region.
To say that Palestinians have no claim to the land is false; there are people still living who were pushed out of their homes when Israel was created. Several Arab nations attacked Israel, and Israel responded by clearing huge areas of their populations and taking them on for themselves. Clearly we see how both the Arabs and the Israelis are guilty. A person who doesn't understand that is kidding themselves.
In the end, the creation of Israel was stupid. There is no rationale that will get you past the hypocrisy of supporting the creation of Israel, but not supporting the state of Iroquois. But I have never in my life heard a single Jew anywhere advocate the slicing off of a swath of America in order to create an independent sovereign nation. And yet, according to the rationale for Israel, that is the only fair and reasonable thing to do.
The truth is, that rationale is bunk. Pure bullshit.
The right of Israel to exist is the same as the right of the United States to exist. In essence, there is no such right. If you want your state to survive, you'll have to fight to keep it alive. If it's alright with the Israelis, I'd like to stop sending them a chunk of my fucking paycheck every month now. And good luck with that Israel thing. I'll be here fighting off the Sioux.
41 - Nancy
Ruvy, much as I like & respect you, I have to agree w/Zedd (& Zing, & Esteban) that you are falling into the trap of calling anyone who disagrees with you by names such as 'racist' or 'antisemitic'. They're not. You want antisemitic? Try Redtard or JOM. THAT is antisemitic and/or racist. All the rest are simply disagreeing with you. Period. Please don't read anything more into comments than that.
You're right, in that trying to remove the religion from the politics is impossible in this particular matter & geopolitical/historical arena. Secularists like myself, Esteban, or Chris Rose have the frustration of having to try to talk "sense" to people who - to us - babble constantly about non-sense, ideologies that don't exist & have no basis for action let alone belief. This in turn creates a chasm of misunderstanding, because we are literally not speaking the same languages, even tho using common words; the meanings are entirely different.
After reading the above comments, I think I'd have to say that I think Dave comes closest to my own thoughts on this, with a little more thrown in. After reading your articles, I have to say I consider that Zionism in its current, official sense is a far different thing than it was 80 or even 30 years ago. Today it does seem to verge on a sort of ultra-nationalist sense of religious & even racial superiority & unlimited aggression/expansion, & on more than one occasion Isreal has indeed demonstrated that they have become that which they most hated in order to survive if not expand. On the other, you all live under circumstances which I readily admit I can't even conceive of, and even here in my safe haven in the US I concede that Isreal thus far has seemed to be for the most part entirely justified by most of its aggression, particularly in response to the usual blind, mindless violence of the arab/palestinian/muslim antagonists over issues 50 or more years old. That may indeed be the problem: the semitic groups seem to nurse grudges & hatreds long after most other groups worldwide have given them up, moved on, & gotten a life, so to speak. As I once mentioned on another thread, I don't know any other people on earth who make a celebration & ceremony out of a traditional yet fictional grudge against another group that occurred (IF it occurred at all, which archeologists & historians now concede is unlikely) well over 5,000 years ago! This is madness. It's like me holding a grudge against anyone with Viking heritage because 1,000 years ago they pillaged my ancestral home village somewhere in coastal England, & I spend each year memorializing it.
As for Jerusalem & other such places, I think maybe the best thing that could happen would be if all such places were utterly destroyed: Jerusalem, Mecca, Medina, etc. If they didn't exist any more, maybe there wouldn't be a reason to slaughter anyone else over them. I also can't help but feel that God, if he/she/it/they exist, will not be terribly happy or forgiving of those who commit atrocities in His/Her/Its/Their name. But that's just my feelings about it all.
42 - Graham McKnight
'Several Arab nations attacked Israel, and Israel responded by clearing huge areas of their populations and taking them on for themselves. Clearly we see how both the Arabs and the Israelis are guilty. A person who doesn't understand that is kidding themselves.'
What we are dealing with here, Esteban, are Palestinian Arabs. This cultural entity was used a pawn by both Zionist factions of the Israeli government and military, as well as Nasser of Egypt et al.
That aside, whilst I appreciate Esteban's and Nancy's comments on Arab-Israeli relations in general, I would also like to know what the newcomers to this thread think of the article itself.
43 - zingzing
huh. kristen, did you notice the "opinion" heading at the top?
zionism has changed. israel is just as guilty as the arabs for continuing a stupid war. if it were possible to replace jerusalem with an ocean, the world would probably be a better place. (clear out all the people first...)
i have a twin brother. when i was a child, I (or maybe he) got a donald duck doll. we both liked it and fought over it until my mother took it away and hid it in a closet. 25 years later, i saw it again. it was a rather raggedy knock-off donald duck. i don't even like donald duck much anymore. i can't see why we fought about it so hard.
jerusalem sits in an unforgiving environment, hot in the summer, cold and wet in the winter, polluted, etc. since neither side wants to stop fighting about it, neither side should get to have it. children.
44 - Zionism
Re: zingzing You are a sick person. You have some nerve talking so flippantly about the fate of MILLIONS of people. Good thing you don't make the rules in this world. If she knew what you are saying your mother would be ashamed of you, and your comments reflect poorly on the job she did raising you.
45 - Graham McKnight
Firstly, people ought to put a name, nickname or an alias in the 'name' bar when writing a message. 'Re: zingzing' is not a name, failing to reveal yourself is cowardice.
Kirsten J. Congratulations for pointing out the obvious; this article is indeed 'not scholarship'. As zingzing reminds us; it is an opinion piece. Opinion pieces need not aspire to be anything more than they are. Also, every argument is biased, the notion of objectivity as an historical method is dead.
Mike Jackson; don't use racism as a disabling device, it serves only to discredit your ability to engage critically with the argument.
46 - Zionism
"...the notion of objectivity as an historical method is dead."
Yet another argument for which you provide no support. You just made that up to rationalize your unfairness.
"Mike Jackson; don't use racism as a disabling device."
You are a racist Graham. Your arguments and opinions make that very clear.
47 - zingzing
re:re:zingzing:
you seem to take me too literally. i don't want to "wipe israel off the map," but all this childish fighting makes it perfectly clear that the world would be a safer place without the ugly thorn that is jerusalem causing so many wars. if people could be civil, all would be well, but i think the last 50 years (or 3,000, depending on what you're looking for) have proven that people will always fight over a little shit of a city (there are some nice buildings... lots of history... maybe it should made into a big tourist trap).
again, i'm not saying "destroy jerusalem." i'm just saying the world would be safer without it. any argument against that? i doubt it, you coward.
48 - Graham McKnight
'LingLing' says that: '[your assertion that objectivity is dead is] Yet another argument for which you provide no support. You just made that up to rationalize your unfairness.'
I'm sorry to reveal this to you 'lingling', but if you were to read E.H. Carr's 'What is History?' and then read the multitude of contemporary criticm directed against his argument for historians to be objective in their reportings, you deduce that I am far from 'making it up'.
Tell me 'lingling', do you read or study history? No?
It shows.
49 - Zedd
Dave
Thanks for your response once more.
I am confused as to why you think it is feasible for people who have lived on a land for thousands of years to be moved because they resemble other people in the world.
Also many Jews have lived in Europe for thousands of years. They don't have a RIGHT to anything in the middle east. Their religion doesn't give them a right to ANYTHING in a civic society.
Would you be willing to be moved to Ireland because Mexicans wanted Texas back? That is, leave your property, business, everything that you have worked for and move to a part not of your choosing, wherever you are placed.
Dave, my roots are in Southern Africa. Every ancestor that I know of is from that region and perhaps (from my appearance) some going back tens of thousands of years to the Bushman, meaning that I go back to that part of the world to when humans first walked upright. THAT is a tie to land.
However, I am an American citizen. If I go to South Africa, I hold and American passport like you do, who has no ties. If I choose to repatriate, I have to go through the process that ALL immigrants go through. I don't hold a RIGHT to that beautiful land. We live in civic societies. As emotionally tied as I am to my home (and you can tell that I am), I am American.
This strange temper tantrum that some Jews throw about this land doesn't fit in a society that wants to participate among other civilized societies. Israel hedges between the same world of their neighbors where religion rules policy and a world where laws devised out of reason. They want the respect and partnership of civilized, DEMORATIC societies yet withhold it from others. We need to stop coddling Dave.
50 - sr
Zedd. Just mailed you a box of 50,000 flies. Just open and release in your home. Thank me later. They are horse flies and may bite. I like to fry then in garlic and butter. Hold your nose while frying.
51 - Zedd
Ruvy
I have said this on a number of threads, respect you. I love your passion and conviction. While I don't share your beliefs, I think that in this world there is very little that people have passion for. You are truly living life, brave enough to leave your home to start over in another world... wow. Its all extraordinary.
I also love Jews. I respect how many have used their suffering to champion others including Arabs. I am appreciative how it is that in many cases when we couldn't speak for ourselves because of legal limitations both here and in South Africa, Jewish men and women rose up and went in the doors that we couldn't enter, on our behalf. I respect their love for culture. I respect many Jews for their ownership of this world. By that I mean taking ownership of their personal experiences to the extent of endeavoring where ever they are, and ignoring the negativity around them. Its all beautiful. I love the rituals. When I moved into an all White neighborhood, it was the Jews (who didn't know each other and didn't know that either of them were Jews), three different families (middle aged son with elderly mom no longer practicing, stay at home mom with WASP hubby who practiced judaism, a gay couple "religious" enough please parents), who came to me and welcomed me and made me feel like I was at home with them. They became family instantly. The funny thing is that neither of them knew the other was Jewish. I told them...
I have encountered a few Jewish people who were the stereotype. Many J.A.P.s (who I envy), and two loath some characters from Jerusalem who made the characterization of the cheat look like mild because they were off the chart! I have never met such scheming shysters in my life. However, they were simply jerks, not Jewish jerks in my mind.
So no, I feel no loathing for Jews.
From this point, I hope that we can discuss matters without you copping out by calling me a racist or insinuating that I have negative feelings about your people.
52 - Zedd
sr
What do you think about Zoinism?
Thanks for thinking of me.
53 - sr
Zedd, when you speak of Zoinism do you mean the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. Israel belongs to the Jew and no one else. It is not only their birthplace it is their land given to them by G-d. Always has been and always will be. Hope you enjoyed your flies.
54 - Dr Dreadful
I think Zedd could tell you about Zionism but I don't think she has an opinion on Zoinism. Very few people do.
Briefly put, Zoinism is the irrational worship of the 1930s Hungarian dictator Ferenc Zoi. Zoi was a Catholic cardinal who for no apparent reason stormed into Parliament in Budapest one Thursday morning and declared himself absolute ruler of all Hungary. The Hungarian legislature were so surprised that they surrendered on the spot, despite the fact that Zoi's forcefulness was somewhat undermined by his having forgotten to dress. He thus earned the distinction of being the only despot in history to have seized power while wearing only a wifebeater, boxers and socks with suspenders.
Zoi ruled Hungary for less than a day, but Hungarians remember his rule with terror. His secret police were responsible for the disappearance of thousands of untoasted bagels from the delicatessens of Budapest, and he suspended parliament, declaring it to be an enemy of itself. At around 4.30 in the afternoon he was seen on the balcony of the presidential palace, explaining to a juvenile male pigeon that he was God's anointed one. When questioned by journalists later, the pigeon was unable to explain exactly what he had meant.
Zoi then clambered onto the parapet. As the watching crowd held its breath, he peeled a small dandruff flake from his scalp, regarded it incuriously and then fed it to the pigeon. He proceeded to clamber down again and disappear inside. Nothing more was heard from him for about an hour, whereupon he shoved a note under his office door to his secretary. The note read, "Mother?"
At 7.05, soldiers battered down the locked door of his office and found Ferenc Zoi's prostrate body crushed under a large upturned oak desk. It has never been determined exactly how he contrived this bizarre death, but some absurdly suggestible folks have theorized that God took him thus into Heaven. These people are now known as Zoinists, and can be seen worshipping pigeons in the urban parks of many of the world's major cities.
55 - Dr Dreadful
J,
Graham is neither a racist nor an anti-semite. He expressed an opinion on Zionism with which you happen to disagree, and backed it up with reasoned argument - something which I have yet to see you do. You sound like a moron. It is like calling someone a racist because they don't intend to vote for Barack Obama.
Now perhaps you can explain to us exactly why you think Graham is what you accuse him of being. If not, please go back to sleep and stop being a prick.
56 - Zionism
If Finkelstein was so great and trustworthy like Graham claims (by citing him as an authoritative source in his article) then why didn't he get tenure? Careful before you blame it on the Jews and Israelis. DePaul is a Catholic University.
57 - Dr Dreadful
Dr Dreadful, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walk like a duck, then most likely it's duck.
No.
Using reasoned arguments, please, not meaningless cliches.
And try to use the same damn alias for two posts running. That will at least help you be taken more seriously than a duck.
58 - Zedd
Ruvy/ Dave
Is it not true that in religious prayers (the Standing Prayer, the Passover and Yom Kippur) the phrase "next year in Jerusalem" is included at the end, if I am not mistaken.
You have to acknowledged that the religious does play THE major roll in Zionism.
While most immigrants do always have a love and affinity for their motherland, most understand that once they have given up their citizenship, their claim on the land ends. The distorted idea of a biological or religious ownership of land without legal sanction is what makes the Israeli situation so complex. It becomes problematic for the world.
The truth be told, without the sentimentality wich is brought on by the Old Testament story beginning with Abraham to Elijah, the world would not be so willing to participate in supporting this oddity.
My progeny 2000 years from now, will not to lay claim on a single acre in Johannesburg from whatever part of the world they may reside in without following the standard processes of land ownership. My South Africanness will mean nothing and that will not play a role in their deserving consideration for land ownership.
59 - Zedd
Doc
You are silly but funny!
Its still a cult.
60 - Zionism
Zedd, most Israelis bought their land fair and square. However once Jews turned the land into a paradise the Arabs wanted it back.
61 - Zedd
Truth,
Are you saying that Arabs left because they wanted to not out of fear and they changed their minds and wanted it back?
That isn't logical. You sound brainwashed because your reasoning is so warped. Check yourself.
On the Jews who bought the land, I don't doubt it. I believe that individuals did and do buy land but he premise is the problem. The idea of it being theirs as a people ONLY no matter where their home is and has been for thousands of years. That is insane and manipulative.
If any other group were to make that claim today, they would be thought to be crazy cultists. Heck Native Americans in Canada cant get their land back and they have the paper work to support it and its only been a hundred and some years. Lets not talk about a THOUSAND years. Its crazy!!
62 - Clavos
@#57:
Dr. D:
Did they teach you about Zoi in the seminary?
Very few people know his full story.
His father was (before Zoi was born of course), my great, great (who certainly wasn't great enough to merit TWO greats) grandfather's majordomo during the Crimean War.
Family legend has it that great, great, Granddad would beat Zoi's father to within an inch of his life if he didn't get the creases of great great Grandad's underwear just so when pressing them.
Apparently, this horrific life in Crimea drove the poor sod round the bend, and by the time Ferenc was born, the old man was a complete basket case.
Historians agree that it was seeing his father in such a pitiful state during his (Ferenc's) teen years that inspired Zoi to become a priest, working in the insane asylums of Budapest to relieve the suffering of the crazy Hungarians.
Later, of course, after he had wrought bedlam in the bedlams, he was promoted to Cardinal.
The rest, as you described, is history.
63 - Zionism
Unfortunately you are unable to talk Israel out of existence Zedd. Zionists and Jews like me could care less about what you think about us. If you are promising action, and want to sign up with Arab armies or terrorists to destroy Israel, then let us know. If not, spare everyone your ignorance and racism.
64 - Dr Dreadful
#66: I was thrown out of the seminary for asking about Zoi. I think they were ashamed of him.
But you did give yourself away in your comment. I wonder how many people on BC would take you as seriously if they knew that "Clavos" in Hungarian means pigeon, and that this is the origin of your online monniker and not the Spanish word for nails, as you spuriously claim.
;-)
65 - Zedd
Lobby
You sound brainwashed. Its a cult.
66 - Zedd
The truth is finally out!!!
Clavos the Hungarian spy and lead prefect of the Zio School of Proper Spelling and Underwear Ironing.
Thank you Doctor!!
67 - Clavos
"I wonder how many people on BC would take you as seriously if they knew that "Clavos" in Hungarian means pigeon, and that this is the origin of your online monniker and not the Spanish word for nails, as you spuriously claim."
Give me a break, DD!
I'm waaayy too old to be rolling around on the floor laughing my head off!
You might have given me a heart attack, thus perpetuating the legend...
68 - Dave Nalle
For an American who spent his childhood among Arabs, and who generally is sympathetic to their side of things, that is a reasonable assessment to come to. But Dave is an American shooting coyotes in Texas. How about the local Arabs who have to live with the consequences of his words?
Ruvy, I like to think that having lived in the region and spent time in Israel and among Palestinians, but now having the removal of some years and plenty of distance, I can be relatively impartial on the subject. There was a time when I thought Israel should just be nuked on principle, but at I've come to admire the resolve and resilience of the Israelis. The Palestinians are potentially fine people, but they've been put in an unacceptable position which brings out the worstin them. Both peoples deserve better leadership than they've got and are being used by others for no good purpose.
Dave
69 - Zedd
#72
Well stated!!!
70 - STM
Lol. I've missed all the action. What a hoot ... one of my mates is nicknamed pigeon ... I might start calling him Clavos (or is that Clavosh?)
My, how social morays have changed.
71 - Zedd
Esteban #24
I missed this post.
You have articulated what I have stated many times over. I am now exhausted with this matter and have less patience. We have to listen to some news real from this country every day when the entire planet is inhabited by all sorts of wonderful souls who's lives matter just as much. Our inner cities are a wasteland and yet we have to report every robbery of a piece of candy in Jerusalem (almost) in the nightly news. People in Sudan are being tormented by bullies and suffering immensely but somehow their well being is less important. The Kashmiri situation is not resolved and yet we obsess about this nation. Its enough already. The attention should be embarrassing.
72 - Zedd
STM
You are cruising for a bruising Zulu style.
I goofed #70 up too.
I'll blame the meds this time.
73 - STM
Sorry Zedd, but it's a boring Satrurday at work - and it's pissing down outside (drought's broken) - and you, DD, and Clav have provided a little light at the end of the tunnel. Let's hope it's not an oncoming goods train.
74 - Dr Dreadful
Wish it would rain here, but it won't until October at the earliest. Folks think California is all about surfing and palm trees, when the reality here in the Central Valley is pollution, allergies and frying your breakfast on the hood of your car. Still, I have my rain & thunder CD which lulls me to sleep each night. It's not quite the same, but I'm blessed with a good imagination.
75 - Graham McKnight
I am glad to have the support of the Doc, Clavos and Zedd etc. For a while I thought the BC threads were being hijacked by pigeons...