I am beginning to believe that the right, might well be, right. We are living in an age of moral depravity and if I have to draw the line in the sand and choose between some very basic liberal principles that I have clung to for my 35 plus years and the possibility of a more harsh, but secure future, then that is something I am willing to do.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - bhw
Prosecuting a crime is less about the truth of what happened, than it is about hiding the truth, plea-bargaining and reducing sentences.
I agree, but I don't know that it's ever been about finding the truth, unfortunately. My husband is even more cynical. He says it's all just about competition and winning.
I think you and I disagree on where to draw the line between which laws we do and don't need to protect the innocent. I lean more toward restricting government, even if that means guilty people sometimes go free.
Maybe our bigger problem isn't that guilty people [particularly sex offenders] go free at trial, but that they're found guilty and then released after a few years.
My husband used to work in the mental health field, and he had a few pedophiles as his clients. They sickened him. No remorse. Lying to his face. No attempt to change their behavior to prevent a recurrence. They don't, generally speaking, change who they are just because they've spent a few years in jail. And if that's the case and the statistics bear that out, then why aren't they jailed for longer?
27 - Eric Olsen
and people wonder why some take matters into their own hands?
28 - Michael
BHW's comment about the ten innocent men is my biggest issue with your program of social improvement, although it's not the only one. I'm hoping that you don't really mean it.
So if there was a case where it was irrefutably the case that a child was molested at a school, and it was proven that it was one of the staff (11 men, all blood relatives), is it OK to kill, castrate, or lobotomize them all? You'd be 100% certain to get the predator, but you'd also be 100% certain to punish 10 innocent men.
If so, why 10? What if it was 11, 1100, or 1? If there's a number of people that it's OK to punish for someone else's crime, how do we determine what that number is? When do we get to 295,720,666?
If you were able to determine the punishment of a criminal and you chose death, even over his objections of innocence, would you feel that you had done the right thing if it later came out that the criminal wasn't actually guilty?
Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius! -- Amaury's excess of zeal for protecting society from the heretical predators of Beziers seems wrong 800 years later, and yet what you're promising to support a politician for proposing is not particularly different.
29 - Eric Olsen
I believe the post is best read as a statement of frustration from a mother's point of view, but that's just my opinion
30 - Phillip Winn
aanot-so-cool (#25): Sharia? Someone advocates harsh penalties for child molesters and you call sharia on them?
Is sharia the new hitler?
Look, I have three kids, and I'll tell you right now that if someone did serious harm to one of them, the only thing that would keep me from tearing that person into pieces with a rusty spoon would be the thought of my other two kids having to visit me in prison for the rest of my life.
If you want to equate that with a sub-culture that considers it okay to kill rape victims because they've somehow dishonored the family name, well, I can't think of a nicer label for that than "stupid."
31 - swingingpuss
It takes a village to bring up a child and while we may demand death row or imprisonment without parole I don't think it would deter sex offenders. It is known fact that kids are more likely to suffer abuse from a loved one than an outsider.
What are we doing as a society or community to protect our children? Laws take a long time to change till then I am in favor of putting electronic bracelets on all these known buggers and having concentration camps for them. To hell with their civil rights!
32 - JR
Sharia? Someone advocates harsh penalties for child molesters and you call sharia on them?
Well... yeah, what with the cutting off of things and all.
33 - Dawn
What a purposterous statement Michael, but to answer your question.
No number is too high to punish, if they are responsible for raping and murdering children.
I guess I have faith in our judicial system to convict the right person, my issue is with the sentencing phase. Harsher penalties, in fact the harshest we can stomach for the crimes that make me want to wretch.
There isn't a pretend situation that you can create that will make me change the way I feel on this matter, so use your creative talents elsewhere.
34 - Phillip Winn
I repeat: stupid. :-)
35 - JR
No number is too high to punish, if they are responsible for raping and murdering children.
Well then, the solution is obvious. We nuke the country from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
36 - Dawn
If nuking child rapers and child murderers from the safety of outerspace is what it takes, then sign me up Capt. Kirk.
37 - Eric Olsen
I believe there is confusion here as to what Michael was saying: I think he is saying only one of this group was guilty while all were being punished. If all were guilty there wouldn't be an issue
38 - Dawn
I didn't misunderstand in the slightest, but he was making ridiculous argument by using a ridiculous scenario.
My point isn't what crazy combination of errors you can come up with, it's what do we do with the ones we convict?
Simple, we eliminate them, as they serve no purpose in society but to harm.
Unless....we use them for scientific experiments that could further medical breakthroughs and help save lives.
In that respect, they could be useful.
39 - JR
I believe there is confusion here as to what Michael was saying: I think he is saying only one of this group was guilty while all were being punished.
The confusion is an unavoidable result of the policy.
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I believe children are safer here and now than they've ever been in the history of the species. I think what we're seeing is a spotlight shining on a few instances of what used to be ignored, hushed up and far more common. I think the trend is quite positive - our culture and our justice system are already working very well in this respect.
I have to say, if Dawn had her way with this country, I'd depart for safer environs. I have no confidence I could prove my innocence in the judicial climate she's promoting, and the price of failure is too horrific to contemplate.
40 - Michael
Dawn:
Can you clarify which statement I made that you feel is preposterous? While the scenario I proposed is unrealistic (in many ways), it's a simplification to try to clarify your position. Assume that the case is there and the question remains.
In fact, you didn't answer my question. What I'd like to know is what number of innocent people it's OK to punish in order to assure that you also punish one guilty one.
You answered that it's OK to punish all the guilty people, which I agree with, but which I don't think is an interesting question.
Why, especially given the evidence that it's not true, do you have faith that the convicted are always guilty?
And while I'm sorry you're not open to the possibility that what you're proposing is dangerous and morally unsound, I'm happy enough to point it out for the benefit of other readers. As I read in a comment elsewhere, posting an opinion on blogcritics is effectively an invitation for others to comment upon it.
41 - Dawn
I disagree and most law officials, parents and grandparents would disagree with your assessment that children are safer now.
We live in a society that has sexually explicit material available from the most mudane of interests to the most grim and horrific available to anyone interested.
Just recently a discovery was made on the internet that at least 20 + people downloaded a video showing a man (since convicted) raping a little girl (I believe age 5 or so) in New Jersey alone.
There is an appetite for this sort of thing and the nature of our society has made it easier and with a certain degree of anonymonity to hide your proclivities unless you are just fucking stupid like the above individuals were.
I firmly believe seeing this sort of thing leads people to want to take it to the next level. We are also, so intent on being polite and granting everyone their "freedoms" that even if you do profess your unnatural "interests" no one feel comfortable violating your rights UNTIl you've taken your fantasy into the real world (which any psychologist who studies these sickos will tell you) it's not a question of if, but when they will do it.
Now, these creeps have the internet, overwhelmed parents juggling too many things, an open and free society to move,lax punitive measures and understaffed law enforcement and a general lack of concern for children UNTIL someone steals a child and murders them.
The goal should be to prevent the crime through harsher penalties and a tighter control on those we know to be "sex offenders". Much has been done on the law enforcement side, but because of whacked out too far leaning paranoid types, even the laws that are conservative by my standards don't get passed.
It's an outrage to complain about atrocities abroad, when right in your neighborhood helpless children are being snatched from their bed, assaulted and murdered.
If you think I am crazy for feeling the way I do, then God help you.
42 - Dawn
Michael,
How is it dangerous punishing the guilty? How is it any different than what we do now.
Are you saying that life in prison for molesting children is too much?
Please do explain what YOU think should be done with these animals.
Also, do me a favor and do a little research on the recidivism rate and the rehab rate before you answer.
I have, hence my stance.
Also, do you have children? Do you like children? Do you care about their well-being?
43 - copygodd
for the most part, i'm in total agreement. in fact, i don't think we use the death penalty nearly enough in this country. not only would i execute pedophiles, i'd also execute rapists, child abusers and, in many cases, animal abusers. in fact, i once wrote a post (half in jest) about it. Kill 'Em All. (it's up to you to figure out which half was the jest.)
but i do disagree with two of your statements.
"I would rather see ten innocent men behind bars, than one piece of scum like this out in the general population."
would that still apply if you were one of the innocents behind bars? your husband? your child?
"I am willing to live with highly restrictive abortion rights. I am willing to live with less freedom. I will cheerfully supply my DNA for a national registry. I will pay more taxes. I will give whatever it takes to make sure that what happened to Jessica and all little children NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER happens again."
i'm not sure what highly restrictive abortion rights have to do with this post, but i'm not in agreement there. also, i'm not willing to supply my dna to a national registry, cheerfully or not. i would, however, pay higher taxes if i could be assured that they would actually be put to the proper use, and not wasted on another unnecessary government program.
44 - Dawn
Reasonable enough CopyGodd, and I did clarify my "ten innocent" men statement in the comments.
Look, I don't want anyone innocent to be punished or unjustly accused, but I do want those convicted of heinous crimes to serve the appropriate sentence, be it death, or life in prison.
And to me, child rapists and murderers, and rapists in general should be given the most severe of penalities.
45 - swingingpuss
Dawn, we do need to think about that one convicted innocent out of the ten.
That's the only reason why I am against death penalty.
46 - Phillip Winn
I'm against the death penalty for innocent people. :-)
47 - swingingpuss
Dawn, your passionate stance would have MJ quake in his PJs ;-)
48 - Purple Tigress
Has anyone here seen the play which I believe was also made into a movie called "Exonerated"? They go through disparate cases where being black, poor or just different was enough to get convicted and put on death row.
Check out the Innocence Project.
You can search people by types of crimes. Kirk Bloodsworth was the first person exonerated from death row based on post conviction DNA testing. He was convicted of the brutal rape and murder of a nine-year-old girl. But freed when DNA testing later showed he could not have been the person who raped her.
Sometimes it takes time for true justice to work.
49 - Dawn
Well, if time is all that is needed, then a sentence of 50 years is appropriate, wouldn't you think?
50 - Aaman
Thus spake Mullah Dawn :)
51 - Tristan
Is THAT why MJ was trembling that day walking into court in his little pajamas ~~~
I was surprised he didn't wear the ones with the little booties ( and the pop-down panel in the butt!!!!) ........... heh...heh ...
52 - Dawn
SP, it's funny you should mention MJ, as I think the fitting punishment for him should he be guilty is to send him back to his home planet of Zortron and let the Zortronese deal with him.
He doesn't strike me as terribly violent - disturbed and creepy, but not violent, so I am not too concerned about his impact on society.
53 - Michael
Dawn:
The safety of punishing the guilty is unrelated to the question of the number of innocent people it's OK to punish in order to assure that you also punish one guilty one.
The appropriate sentence for punishing a child molester is also unrelated to that question.
What I think should be done with people you want to define as not-people is also unrelated to the question.
My knowledge of recidivism rates for assorted offenses is particularly unrelated, as is yours.
My offspring, my love of children, and my care for their well being in general are also, you guessed it, unrelated to the question.
I'll ask again. What number of innocent people is it OK to punish in order to assure that you also punish one guilty one? You said 10, but then you kinda but not really backed off from that. More importantly, why is that number the acceptable number?
54 - Dawn
Again, it's a famous quote that I used that is meant to summise our judicial system.
In the body of my post I think I made it clear I was speaking of the convicted. Am I to assume that all convicted felons are also all innocent.
This arguing of semantics, is, you guessed it, unrelated to the basis of my post, which is people convicted of crimes against children deserve zero tolerance.
55 - copygodd
He doesn't strike me as terribly violent - disturbed and creepy, but not violent, so I am not too concerned about his impact on society.
wait a second...because mj isn't a "violent" pedophile, you're "not too concerned" with him? a pedophile is a pedophile, violent or not. i'm sure a lot of the pedophiles in the priesthood weren't particularly violent, but that doesn't make them any less guilty, or less deserving of punishment.
56 - Shark
"....I would rather see ten innocent men behind bars, than one piece of scum like this out in the general population."
Going on an emotional rampage like the above statement will only add rampant injustice to the rampant crime you perceive.
I understand your revulsion, but:
a) it ain't new.
b) it ain't fixable.
c) equating the "Right" (conservatives) with being "right" about being harsh on violent criminals is pretty fucking ridiculous. You've obviously bought some nasty propaganda shit -- and you might wanna reexamine your own head before you go chopping off other people's.
ie: Chill Out -- before you contribute to the madness.
57 - Shark
Hey, maybe we can all team up with RJ and form a new hand-wringing religion based on the Impending End Times.
Oh. Wait. It's been done.
Nevermind.
...or then again, maybe we can start a history book discussion group and talk about how we're actually living in the most moral, civilized period in human history.
Nah.
Gotta run; FOX is on!
58 - Michael
Nope. And since you speak of punishing 10 innocent people in order to also punish one guilty person, I think I don't have to assume that you think that all convicted felons are guilty, so I won't ask.
So, given that we've agreed that there is some rate of conviction of the innocent, I would like to know what rate of irreversible punishment of innocents is OK.
59 - Dawn
First of all, MJ hasn't been convicted of anything, second of all, yes in my mind there is a difference between creepy and weird, and a psychopathic, homicidal child raper and murderer. What, you can't see the difference.
Sheesh.
And Shark, just back the fuck off, seriously dude, go jump on someone else's misery if you are going to come off acting like a d-bag and condescend towards me.
Now, back to Michael the Rational - instead of me trying to give you a reasonable argument and answer your question, I would like to cheat and send you where I got my philosophy from and you can argue with that guy, Okay, cuz I need to make dinner.
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg071002.asp
I do appreciate that you didn't act like a jerk while refuting my assertions.
60 - Victor Plenty
Every innocent punished leaves a guilty one free.
When police, prosecutors, courts, and prisons think they caught the perpetrator, but the evidence they have is falsified, they imprison or execute an innocent person. This happens far more frequently than most people wish it would. This fact is not difficult to verify, for anyone willing to do a little research. When this happens the authorities stop looking before they ever find the person who really committed the crime.
This leaves the real monster out on the streets, still stalking children, still a menace to your peace of mind.
Thinking you are safer because you have made it easier to prosecute suspects thus becomes only a false sense of security.
61 - Dawn
62 - DawnMar 24, 2005 at 12:31 pm
Stupid crappy commenting system.
Anyway, my comment was that this guy (link here) begged for help with his sickness and we did nothing to protect children from him. The state of Florida had 25 arrests on record for him and the fucking morons did NOTHING to protect little Jessica, yet Jeb Bush can sanctimonously parade his concern for a women who hasn't spoken in 15 years.
Where is the justice and concern for Jessica? Once again, it proves to me that this country doesn't give a fat fig about children.
Assholes.
I feel bad for Terri Schiavo and it's cruel what they are doing to her, but in pales in light years to what happens to children in this country every day.
Hypocrites - burn in hell you hypocrites.
63 - swingingpuss
While cases like Jessica's cause ripples of empathy amongst the masses, yet others of domestic violence and abuse go unreported or ignored.
The social services is overburdened, the staff underpayed and one doesnt have much to comment about foster homes.
Dawn, Your anger is justified, no one really gives a rat's ass about abused kids, well not until the tragedy strikes home.
Till then its all about being objective and rehabilitation.
64 - Victor Plenty
Right wing responses to child abuse and poverty generally follow this pattern: "Why should I have to pay more taxes to take care of poor people's children? I have better things to do with my money. If you can't afford to take care of your own kids, don't have any. Put them up for adoption or something. Don't ask me to care what happens to them."
The left wing response tends to overreact in the opposite direction, which is why I cannot fully agree with either faction on this issue.
Yet I don't see how it would help anyone to have the criminal justice system waste its resources prosecuting and punishing ten innocent men for every guilty one they manage to keep off the streets.
It seems to me, a major part of any real solution to this problem has to start with finding other ways to judge the success and worth of prosecutors. Right now the only criterion we ever hear about for evaluating their performance is the percentage of cases where they are able to obtain a conviction.
This is the real cause of all those plea bargains that let criminals walk out of jail early. Not any excess of concern for innocent suspects, just the raw career ambitions of prosecuting attorneys.
65 - Dawn
Yes, well that is all well and good, but to say that people don't care unless it hits close to home doesn't apply in my case. Everytime I hear of an innocent child being injured or abused I am outraged, depressed for months on end and have a overwhelming sense of hopelessness in the world at large.
How can there not be more people who feel the way I do? It's outrageously insane.
Doesn't anyone realise a little child (and all those like them around the world) was taken, used, and discarded like trash.
WTF?
Oh well, back to old Terri again, because that has more political meat on it.
Fuck off politicians, I hope you all rot in hell - I don't care what your party is. If you don't see this an issue worth fighting for you deserve the same fate at the criminals.
66 - SFC Ski
I agree Dawn, the news and the pols were all over Jessica Lunsford's case one day, the next Terry is the 24/7 coverage. I am exposed to the overnight repeated newscasts and it is incredible how they focus on today's topic to the ignorance of all else.
I do hope you are worng, I believe that we may be able to get much stricter sentencing imposed on child predators within this year.
67 - JR
This is the real cause of all those plea bargains that let criminals walk out of jail early. Not any excess of concern for innocent suspects, just the raw career ambitions of prosecuting attorneys.
I think the case could be made that the standard sentences are just too light. Child abuse/molestation, like drunk driving, is something our criminal justice system historically just hasn't dealt with seriously enough.
That and the total lack of all purportion, perpective and common sense being applied to this Schiavo case are the points where I would agree with Dawn.
68 - Victor Plenty
It speaks well of you to care so deeply, Dawn. You deserve better than depression and hopelessness.
Every sane person wants children protected from the sick predators out there. The only disagreement between you and me comes from different conclusions about what will actually work.
Your goal is absolutely worthwhile, and far more important than the details of the Terri Schiavo case or the Michael Jackson case.
On that point you will get no argument from me.
69 - Dawn
I appreciate the thoughtful words, but everytime something like this happens my brain just keeps focusing on the terror that the child felt, the absolute horror for the family and complete waste and depravity involved.
I can and do seem to be able to feel the actual loss that has taken place and each time it just tears a little piece of my soul apart and the faces of these lost children just get burned in my memory forever and it makes life difficult to enjoy when you know that somewhere out there a little light has gone out, and a family is without the joy and delight that a child brings and they must be forced to consider all the horror that were wrought on their poor babies soul before they were ruthlessly extinguished by a monster not worth the air and space that they used.
It just makes me want to kill the person who did it and anyone who comes between me and their beating heart.
God the world is awful, horrible place.
70 - Tristan
I must agree totally with Dawn (shock!!!)-- on this issue.
I am the exact same way when it comes to crimes against little children.
I was aghast that the national AND local media here in Florida abandoned the case of Jessica Lundsford while she was still missing....
I was doing everything possible to help keep her in the media locally while the search continued.........
When the final result happened I felt physically sick and as if someone had kicked me in the stomach; I'm a bit of an empath in stuff like this....
My sisters are some of the leading proponents against the death penalty in this country and I tend to agree with them on the basis of the possibility of executing an innocent person. They have worked with Sister Jean in the work against the death penalty. (the sister about whom the movie Dead Man Walking was made)
However---I felt the same as Dawn when I saw this "person" arrested and end up confessing to abducting and sexually molesting then killing Jessica---I would have liked to squeeze his throat myself until he turned purple and expired in my hands.....
Dawn--it is a horribly sad and horrid world at times; there also are some almost unbearably beautiful and sweet times also to help "balance" everything... just got finished watching Shadowlands with Anthony Hopkins and Debra Winger--- and what a horribly beautiful poignant story of life's ups and downs, as was Neverland and Million Dollar Baby.
I was brought up catholic and almost became a priest. through many varied and convoluted twists-- I found the wiccan faith and delved into my Irish pagan culture. it has helped me, where the catholic and other xtian forms didn't in the acceptance of that sweet-sour mix of beauty with horror that this plane seems to be filled with. The beliefs are often pointed towards the seasons of the year-with the Summer and winter always making the Wheel of The Year tirn inexorably .....along with pain comes pleasure, etc., .....
It is not a "perfect" world....
We can still try our best to help
and maybe make another's path a trifle easier if we have the chance...
71 - Victor Plenty
Those children would not want you to suffer so, Dawn. Remember that, along with everything else you remember about the victims of these crimes.
They would never want you to suffer what they have been made to suffer, not even in the form of imagining it in your thoughts. They would never want you to become yet another indirect victim of the crimes committed against them, losing the quality of your life in the hopeless replaying of those crimes in your mind.
You can honor their memory far better by seizing every joy this life has to offer you, and sharing those joys with the people you love. Such joy will make you a far more effective fighter against the forces of darkness than any amount of depression or hopelessness will ever achieve.
It will also take away power from the criminals. The sickest ones thrive on fear, not only the fear in their direct victims, but the fears they are able to inflict indirectly on the whole populace. Deny the fuckers that satisfaction! Make your life happy, and you will deprive them of their pathetic feeling of power over you.
That is a punishment you can inflict on them today, at this very moment, with no fear of being prosecuted yourself for taking the law into your own hands.
Your fierce and defiant happiness can also give you energy you can direct into thoughtful efforts to reform the legal system and better protect children from crime.
In the meantime, your own loved ones will be happier, and learn valuable lessons as they see you overcome the depression and throw your defiance in the teeth of the monsters.
72 - Eric Olsen
Dawn, you are always eloquent in expressing your emotions, especially toward children
Tristan, that is very deep and powerful stuff, well-conveyed.
73 - Dawn
Thanks Tristan and Victor for your willingness to read and express your own thoughts about such troubling events. What I try to do once the initial pain and anguish wears down to a dull throb is much like you have suggested, I become ever more vigilant, more aware and try to remember at the most frustrating moments as a parent, that every temper tantrum, act of defiance and just plain bratty mood is a gift and a joy to have, as the alternative of silence and a dark void would be a horror that would undeniably kill my soul and desire to live.
It's difficult, but it seems that it is the only positive thing I can derive from the pain that this kind of tragedy brings.
I also feel it is essential to share in the pain that the family feels, to not do so would seem so disrespectful and inhumane.
My heart goes out to her and her parents and anyone who has had to suffer like this. It's just the most awful thing imaginable.
In any case, thanks for letting me vent.
74 - RJ
I tried to comment a couple days ago, but I guess there was an error on the comments section, so it would not post.
In brief, I agree with pretty mucha ll of your post except this:
"I would rather see ten innocent men behind bars, than one piece of scum like this out in the general population."
That's too high a societal cost, IMHO.
Legal protections for the innocent are crucial in any free society. If we start locking everyone up who MIGHT be a deranged kid-killer, we have lost TOO much freedom...
75 - Dawn
Yes, RJ we've discussed that particular phrase as being rhetorical, but the Jonah Goldberg article I linked to had some very valid points about statistical probabilities and the overall good - that perhaps in the bigger picture, better that we have ten guilty child rapers and murderers in jail and the odd anamoly of one innocent person, than ten guilty guys free.
In any case, it was your original post that made me come to terms with a long standing and overwhelming issue I have with the laws in this country and instead of venting ad nauseum about it knowing that my voice is just being sucked into a vacumn, I am actually going to see what the real and genuine procedures are for changing the laws.
Hey, if you are interesting in getting involved - you know where to find me.