What consequences if Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker succeeds in busting the public employee unions?
That the current confrontation in Wisconsin between Republican Governor Scott Walker, the Republican controlled Wisconsin State Legislature, and unionized government workers is now being repeated in a number of other states is a clear indication that it amounts to an organized and concerted effort to break, first the public employee unions, and then those in the private sector. (BTW - This contention is even further supported by Governor Walker's being "punked" in a phone call he believed was coming from Republican sugar daddy, David Koch, wherein Walker iterates with apparent glee how a number of the other Republican governors are dutifully following his lead.)…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Doug Hunter
#25
Glenn, that's because breaking it down by state is foolish statistical nonsense. It's blue urban cores versus the rest of the nation. Blue urban cores that are blighted, corrupt, centers of violent crime, have schools investing more in metal detectors than books, have people driving hours a day just to avoid living there, etc., etc.
There are alot more differences between Maine and Mississippi than voting. Introduce a tiny bit of diversity into those model northeast democrat states and stick em on the border of a voilent third world country (instead of Canada) for awhile and then we'll talk.
27 - Glenn Contrarian
So...Doug -
Exactly how is it, then, that the OVERALL numbers for those states show that - except for the poorest parts of the inner cities where things are bad - the VAST majority of the rest of the blue-state population is so well off that the statewide statistics wind up as they do?
And WHY is it that crime, violent crime, murder, DIVORCE, income, education, and incarceration levels are so much worse in red states?
Hm?
By being so quick to point out the problems of the poorest parts of the inner cities, you're merely cherry-picking because you are ignoring the vast majority of the blue states that are NOT comprised of 'the urban core'.
Man, but y'all do so hate honestly addressing uncomfortable questions when the numbers are so clearly against you....
28 - Baritone
Blaming unions on high cost of living in some states is rather ludicrous. Let's see, what is main source contributing to the difference in the cost of living between say New York and Mississippi? Unions, of course. What else could it be? Otherwise, those states are virtual mirrors of each other. Sheesh!
29 - Christopher Rose
One of the main things that is corrupting urban, suburban and even rural life in the USA is the war on drugs, which is completely failing to achieve its stated purpose whilst directly driving forwards the proliferation and enrichment of the gangs which now control large parts of the country.
This has to be far more important than fairly pointless arguments about which is the lesser of two evils, the Republicans or the Democrats.
30 - Alan Kurtz
… gangs which now control large parts of the country.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
Sorry to disappoint you, but the United States is not controlled by gangs, unless you count the federal government, which I do not.
31 - Alan Kurtz
The anti-American shit that passes for commentary on this site is despicable.
32 - Doug Hunter
#27
You have your own brain, not everything is explained by democrat=good, republican=evil. Let's make a list of a few possible reasons off the top of my head why small population, non diverse northerneastern states do well. Hmmm. Won a civil war fought outside it's borders rather than lost one fought inside it. Have had longer to develop as they were original colonies plus have money and political influence through the capital located in their midst. Border Canada rather than Mexico, have few minorities who fare poorly in these measures (demographics explains poverty, crime, longevity much better than state presidential voting pattern).
I'd say it's more fair to compare the Maine's and Vermont's of the country to the Utah's and Kansas's while if you're interested in diversity perhaps a comparison of Texas and California would be better.
That last one would might make a pretty good article. Texas has oil, but California is a shoe in resort destination and controls the Pacific. California has $4K higher income, but at barely $350/month that's not gonna near make up for the housing cost disparity, or extra tax burdern, etc. There's alot of migration both ways, but my perception is that more people leav Cali for Texas. (again, I'm always confused as to why they move here to escape burdensome government and taxes and then immediately continue voting for burdensome government and taxes).
33 - troll
#30 Alan...how do you feel about metropolitan police forces?
34 - Alan Kurtz
I am reassured every time I see a uniformed police officer, for I know that he or she is on duty, ready to sacrifice his or her life.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
35 - Glenn Contrarian
Baritone -
Let's see, what is main source contributing to the difference in the cost of living between say New York and Mississippi? Unions, of course. What else could it be? Otherwise, those states are virtual mirrors of each other.
Yes! Except for the life expectancy, level of education, crime rate, level of incarceration, and divorce rate, of course....
36 - Alan Kurtz
The only gangs that threaten my liberty are those that censor my comments at Blogcritics.
37 - Baritone
Glenn - You DO realize I was being sarcastic, don't you?
B
38 - Christopher Rose
Alan, perhaps you could explain this: according to a serious news documentary report broadcast earlier this week, in Chicago there are over 50,000 hardcore heroin addicts spending between $50 and $100 a day to support their addiction. That alone adds up to an annual spend of between $912.5 million and $1.825 billion.
This industry is run by the gangs, who use this money to buy weapons and run other organised crime such as prostitution.
When you factor in the growing numbers of casual heroin users and all the other drug use in just that one city alone, the scale of the problem becomes apparent.
Drugs are cheaper than ever and more readily available than ever, whilst the war on drugs continues to achieve nothing except the criminalisation of America on a massive scale.
Personally, I consider that to be a more serious issue than trying to take sides between two increasingly homogenous political parties.
The following are Google search results so anyone who cares to can pick their own data sources:
How much is spent on illegal drugs each year?
How much is spent on the war on drugs each year?
What percentage of the USA is in Jail?
My words have nothing at all to do with anti-American sentiment, which is not a position I subscribe to.
39 - Doug Hunter
#35
Life expectancy when broken down by race is almost identical between Mississippi and New York, Mississippi has more blacks who have lower life expectancies overall. In fact, black males have a higher life expectancy in Mississippi than New York according to the census, (although it's balanced by black females where the reverse is true).
The old saying about statistic's lying and liars using statistics is still in full force. Glenn is not that dumb, he knows the flaws in his argument but still repeats them ad nauseum.
What is your explanation as to why, in the face of all the 'progressive' policies and all the increased income and the bigger safety net and the blue state status in New York as opposed to Mississippi that blacks don't experience any higher of a life expectancy?
(the actual stats when broken down don't support your argument at all)
40 - Glenn Contrarian
Doug -
But you're missing the point...and deliberately so, I suspect. The conservatives hammer the airwaves day after day after day about how BAD and EVIL and UNAMERICAN liberals are...and you KNOW this even as you complain about how I attack Republicans and defend Democrats!
But what do the numbers show, hm? WHAT DO THE NUMBERS SHOW, DOUG?
For the most part, conservative red states have been red for generations - and liberal blue states have been blue states for just as long - so if conservative political ideals are so good, then why don't the numbers reflect the conservative assurances of economic nirvana? If liberal political ideals are so bad, then why are crime rates (particular violent crime and murder) so much BETTER in blue states?
You're giving so many excuses - like blue states "had longer to develop", as if the 150+ years since Mississippi became a state (and which has ALWAYS been a conservative state) wasn't long enough! You claim the diversity's a problem...and I guess you haven't been to New York or California lately. For that matter, I guess you haven't noticed the almost totally-white nature of Tea Party and Republican rallies, or the normally multiracial nature or Democratic rallies.
You even claim it was the Civil War's fault! Hey - ever been to Japan? Or Europe? The devastation THEY went through eighty years after the end of America's civil war was FAR worse than anything experienced by the South...and look at them now! Lemme guess - it's all because of the Marshall Plan, huh? News flash, Doug - as I pointed out, blue states have been subsidizing red states using federal tax dollars for a long, long time!
So don't give me your claptrap and your excuse for the FAILURE of red states to keep up with the blue states. If liberal politics and policies are so bad, why are our numbers so much better? If conservative politics and policies are so good, why are your numbers so much worse?
Because family-values-personal-responsibility-guns-for-everybody conservatism - though it has its benefits - is NOT as good as you think it is, and union-loving-social-safety-net-touch-feely liberalism - which has its own faults - is NOT as bad as you think it is.
41 - Alan Kurtz
Christopher Rose (#38), again, sorry to disappoint you! Gangs haven't controlled Chicago since the days of Al Capone. The city had an election earlier this week in which it freely chose a new mayor. He is not a known gang member nor does he have gang affiliations.
42 - Glenn Contrarian
Doug -
Life expectancy when broken down by race is almost identical between Mississippi and New York, Mississippi has more blacks who have lower life expectancies overall. In fact, black males have a higher life expectancy in Mississippi than New York according to the census, (although it's balanced by black females where the reverse is true).
Cherry-pick much?
You're picking parts of the puzzle, but you're ignoring the BIG picture! AGAIN, Doug, address the OVERALL statistics, for it is only in the big picture, only with the overall statistics, that we can see the overall effect!
If I wanted to cherry-pick as you're doing, I can do that par excellence. But I choose to use only metrics that show overall success or failure - and that's by looking at the success or failure of states as whole units, rather than cherry-picking minority situations within those states.
43 - Glenn Contrarian
Baritone -
Yes, I did. I added that because I was fairly certain that some might not understand your sarcasm.
44 - Christopher Rose
Alan, do you have any substantive response to the verifiable information I have posted or are you just going to stick to such irrelevancies as in #41?
45 - Alan Kurtz
Christopher Rose (#44), my thought process, such as it is, is linear. One thing at a time.
Accordingly, I'm waiting for you to post verifiable information to substantiate your absurd claim that "gangs now control large parts of the country."
Once you do that (and I'm not holding my breath), I'll address your other absurd claims.
46 - Clavos
Al sez,
The anti-American shit that passes for commentary on this site is despicable.
I think its healthy and on point, Al.
47 - Glenn Contrarian
For what it's worth, gangs - unless they're in the guise of corporations like those that comprise Big Oil or the quite-multinational "U.S." Chamber of Commerce - do NOT control large parts of the country.
48 - Christopher Rose
If you can't or won't see how much power gangs enjoy through such large scale monopoly control of money, weapons, drugs and people and the power that creates, nor follow the links I provided to verify the scale of these problems, I doubt there is anything I can add that will persuade you of the dangers involved, so I think it is time to draw a close to this exchange.
49 - Clavos
And WHY is it that crime, violent crime, murder, DIVORCE, income, education, and incarceration levels are so much worse in red states?
Easy.
Because the red states, dominated and run as they are by Nazis masquerading as Republicans (oh wait, Republicans ARE Nazis! Sorry, Glenn, I forgot), are nothing but American concentration camps.
I've finally seen the light Glenn. Thank you, thank you, thank you for guiding me onto the path of Democratic righteousness. Praise the president!
50 - Alan Kurtz
Clavos (#46), of course you would! That's because you are anti-American.
51 - Christopher Rose
Clavos, I am actually pro American, but I am also very concerned about the direction in which the country is going.
The state is gathering ever more power, such as the efforts of the current administration to pass a law which creates an internet kill switch for "protection" (remind you of anything that has happened in Egypt or Libya recently?)
Factor in the information I posted above, which such unlikely pairings as Alan Kurtz and Glenn seem to have such difficulty accepting, and other excesses such as the massive increase in security forces in the country in the last ten years, and there has to be cause for concern.
To my way of thinking, these issues transcend party politics in which, as also noted above, the main players have more in common than divides them.
52 - Alan Kurtz
I wish they would create an internet censorship kill switch. Now that would be really useful, especially at BC.
53 - Christopher Rose
A good start would be made if you started to demonstrate the ability not to require management of your comments, Alan. By extension, most laws would not be necessary either if people didn't break them...
You aren't stupid, so I am confident you understand the modest limitations our guidelines impose; stay within them and our paths will never need to cross - the choice, as in any comparatively free society, is yours.
54 - Andy Marsh
Actually VA is kinda purple. We had a dem gov last time and a rep gov this time, we have 2 dem senators right now and one of them is quitting.
So I guess what you're telling me Glenn is that blue states are just smarter than everybody else and since they make more money, they're required to pay more. that's about what I got from all your typing.
But wait! Aren't the blue states of CA, NY, IL all going broke? But...but...but..they're all so smart! How could that possibly happen? Oh yeah, they take, take, take from the earners and give, give, give to the deadbeats. Must be all those southerners moving up north with their hands out!
But you can have NYC and Chicago and Detroit and any other overcrowded, guaranteed to vote dem city in the country. I'll stay here in the dumbed down south and be happy with my lower cost of living, low crime, low taxes and low amount of liberals.
But hey, I must be a fucking moron anyway, I live in a red state! [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]
55 - Andy Marsh
B-tone - comment 28, then what is it? It's easy to make fun, but not so easy to answer the question.
56 - Clavos
The state is gathering ever more power, such as the efforts of the current administration to pass a law which creates an internet kill switch for "protection" (remind you of anything that has happened in Egypt or Libya recently?)
Bingo Chris!
Yes, I agree that the American state has been growing more repressive for sometime now; further, you're right when you say it transcends party politics, it does -- both parties are tightening their hold on the people, and both are moving precipitously to grow and consolidate government (read their) power.
Furthermore, I agree with your premise that the drug cartels are America's Achilles heel. I also think that the only way we will ever successfully deal with this problem is to legalize drugs and control them with laws, thereby putting the cartels out of business by ,means of regulation.
57 - roger nowosielski
@53
A loaded answer, to turn the phrase on its face, Chris, for it does presuppose someone in charge to be able to say "when the people are ready."
58 - Andy Marsh
Damn your quick CR!
59 - Christopher Rose
Clavos, it worked for booze and it will work for drugs too.
The scandal is that a "moral" minority are prepared to accept the current situation rather than deal with it. It is a corrosive and corrupting situation that strikes at the very heart of America.
Roger, no, it doesn't.
60 - Christopher Rose
Andy, fortunately my wife never says that to me.
;-)
61 - Doug Hunter
"except for the poorest parts of the inner cities where things are bad "
That's your core constituency. If you break it down by state is shows one thing, if you break it down by county it shows another, if you break it down by individual it shows more still. You're the one cherrypicking your red state/blue state. If the developed world is your model then the US is bright red by comparison and the most wealthy, most powerful, most innovative, and has contributed disporportionally to global wealth and technology. If I wanted to be live as they do in Canada or Vermont, I'd move to Canada or Vermont. As it is, more people are going the other way, the same as their fleeing blue states to red states, the same as their fleeing your blue urban cores to the suburbs.
I could care less whether midwest unions thrive or how blue voters in Maine are. I'm against federal, top down approaches. Let the states decide, let the statistics play themselves out, and let people choose how they want to live, not some national winner take all where the feds force everyone into a one size fits all government.
62 - Andy Marsh
Ah, you're funny too!
63 - roger nowosielski
I'm somewhat heartened that the elements of anarchistic political philosophy are beginning to germinate. However, wouldn't the State's legalization of drugs strengthen the hand of the already repressive state?
Another way of putting it, the cartels, etc., represent some of the fulcrum points of direct opposition to the totalizing tendencies of the State. Eliminating them - and I'm bypassing now the cost-benefit analysis in terms of the greater public good, because such an analysis presupposed the viability of the "public good" concept within the existing framework - would be tantamount to eliminating the opposition to the State's monopoly.
64 - Baritone
I believe there IS some significant differences between Reps & Dems. Some of those difference are being demonstrated as we speak in Wisconsin and other states. There is, in fact, more of an ideological divide now than perhaps at anytime since the New Deal.
I don't disagree with Christopher regarding the proliferation of gangs and their growing influence across the country. And it's not just large urban areas. Drug use and drug manufacture has spread throughout many small towns and rural areas of the country. Meth labs are regularly being discovered in the boondocks. While certainly, some of those are simply local yokels who, in another time or circumstance might have been distilling moonshine, there have been a # of instances wherein those operations have had ties to larger gangs in places like Indy and Chicago. Indiana is popular with gangs owing to the ease with which one can obtain guns and other weaponry. A number of former Chicago gang members have actually moved to Indy, bringing their operations with them. One gang member being interviewed by the local media rather ironically claimed that he moved here because living conditions were better for he and his family than in Chicago.
I frankly don't see how Alan or anyone else can consider this observation as being anti-American. Main stream politics does not appear to have any significant connection to gangs and other elements of the underbelly of our society.
However, while I understand that the TV series, "The Wire" was fictional, it has been lauded by many as being about as close to reality as any such work has come. The intertwinings of gangs, drugs and politics played out in the wire are growing not only in our urban centers, but, as I noted, throughout the country to one degree or other. Gang power and influence have tentacals reaching well beyond our urban centers.
Is it our main problem? I can't say, but it certainly needs more attention than it's getting, and the supposed "war on drugs" has only served to both embolden gangs and exacerbate the drug problem rather than solving it.
B
65 - Alan Kurtz
Roger Nowosielski (#57), you're right. Whether he's called a dictator or a comments editor, the person in charge always reserves unto himself the decision as to "when the people are ready." And, somehow, the people are never quite ready, are they? Thus ensuring the "need" for that person to stay in charge.
66 - Baronius
"For the most part, conservative red states have been red for generations - and liberal blue states have been blue states for just as long"
Nonsense, Glenn, and I'd bet you know it.
67 - Alan Kurtz
Baritone (#64), you never quite say it, although you come close. So let me ask you directly. Do you endorse Rose's claim (#29) that gangs now control large parts of the country?
68 - roger nowosielski
@59
I'm at a total loss, Chris. What are you referring to? Certainly not my #57.
69 - Heloise
Here's a link, can someone fix it? Where you can see the salaries of these greedy guts. Two years ago were making 65K salary alone that's just for teachers. Now it is probably closer to 70K. I can't believe they don't pay into health. I've not had that benefit in over ten years!
Heloise
70 - Baritone
Andy's #55. As has been noted by Glenn and should be obvious to anyone, there are any # of factors which affect the cost of living. The level of unionization of the workforce may enter into it, but it certainly is not the only factor, nor have you or anyone illustrated as to its even being a significant factor.
But, of course, the REAL issue is the original purpose and need for labor to organize. I know it's a radical concept, but people other than corporate mucky mucks both want and deserve to live decent and reasonably secure lives. That was not possible before unionization, and likely will be lost without it.
71 - Andy Marsh
Yeah, you're absolutely right. That's why my father came home with bullet holes in his truck when I was a teen, because he refused to join a union. So don't tell me how great they are. Asshole teamsters missed his head by about 6 inches!!!!!!!!!
72 - Andy Marsh
And it really is amazing how many people in this country seem to survive without them.
I read yesterday that only 12 % of the population belong to a union. I guess the other 88 % of us are really sucking hind tit ain't we?!??!??!
My asshole's starting to feel all funny with all this smoke being blown up it!!!
73 - Clavos
people other than corporate mucky mucks both want and deserve to live decent and reasonably secure lives.
If it had stopped there, Baritone, I would support the unions.
But it didn't.
74 - Andy Marsh
And there it is again..."it should be obvious to anyone"...in other words, if you don't see my point of view then you must be an idiot!
What a bunch of bullshit!
75 - Baritone
Alan's #64. Not overtly. But gangs both in and outside the US have become much larger, much richer, and far more sophisticated just as the old mafia has turned to its "campaign of quietness" or "pax mafiosi." There are gangs and/or gang members who own portions of major real estate developments and/or who are involved in a variety of large corporations - at least from an investment standpoint. And, of course, they have become involved in politics, again much as has the old line organized crime syndicates. To believe otherwise is IMO, naive.
There was an interesting article on this very topic in, I believe, an issue of "The Atlantic" several months ago which laid much of this out. A number of the more powerful urban gangs in the US have developed strong ties with many of the Central and South American drug cartels.
In HBO's "The Wire" one of the plot elements focused on how some gang leaders were attempting to rise up beyond the street hustling of drugs into making high dollar investments in real estate developments, and developing contacts with local and state pols. As depicted in the series, there developed a struggle between those factions and the less visionary who prefered to keep things at the street level.
But the amount of money being taken in by some of these gangs is so huge - virtually all cash; drug dealers generally don't take plastic - they don't know what to do with it. Many have taken to opening off shore accounts, just as do their white collar brethren, and again, as with the old mafiosi, they have established essentially legitimate businesses to further launder their stacks of cocaine infused cash.
The top echelon of many gangs now rarely have any direct involvement with the day to day of the drug trade and other nefarious dealings of the gangs. They have created multi-layered corporate shells, and for all anyone might be able to establish, they are just smart corporate moguls. With money comes power which begets influence which begets more power, yada, yada, yada...
B