Someone has to hold Barack Obama accountable, and if McCain doesn't do it this election is going to slip through his fingers.
Tonight we're due for our second Presidential debate, this time in a "townhall" format with the venerable Tom Brokaw moderating. It's John McCain's preferred format - he's better with the honest ad lib and the quick retort than he is with a set speech - and it's only 30 days out from election day. It seems like a critical moment of decision for the McCain campaign, and discouraged conservatives are shouting that it's time for McCain to "take the gloves off" and take the fight to the enemy, leaving Obama bloodied and broken. If such an outcome is possible and if the McCain campaign has any hope of victory, this seems to be the most opportune time to hit Obama and hit him as hard as possible.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Jon Sobel
What a terrible, terrible performance by McCain. Obama wasn't quite at his best either, but by comparison, it was a drubbing, and McCain partially inflicted it on himself. He seemed tired, insincere, and desperate. With the exception of the Russia question, Obama appeared more sensible, capable, and even knowledgeable on every single issue.
27 - Cindy D
Okay here is some clarification:
The bailout plan allows the treasury to buy the mortgages, but does not require it.
Obama suggested they consider buying the mortgages but has not required it.
McCain has decided to require it.
28 - troll
there actually was a bit of content in McCain's performance: he clearly stated his goal of implementing (Klein's) "Shock Doctrine" economics
29 - DaveNalle
Cindy, the secessionist lie about Palin has been completely debunked. Why do you lefties keep bringing up the same idiotic untruths over and over?
As for content from the two debaters. McCain had some - nowhere near what I would have liked to see. Obama had none, plus his delivery was weak. Obama can't talk issues because to his credit he's at least a little uncomfortable with the lies he has to tell to get elected.
And troll, McCain didn't say one word about the completely spurious 'shock doctrine' - nice use of propagandistic stock phrases, though.
Dave
30 - Cindy D
Dave,
What lies? There is a video of her right there speaking at their convention.
How is that debunked? Because she's not a secessionist? Her husband was a member for 7 years, she attended and spoke at events.
How is that okay?
Imagine the uproar if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in his cause? The Obama campaign would probably not have survived such an explosive revelation. Particularly if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago.
Quote is from my link above.
31 - Cindy D
Dave put your money where your mouth is.
32 - troll
Dave - he said quite clearly that because of our economic crisis the gov will not meet its social security obligations at their present rate under his administration
33 - troll
(he of course didn't put a lot of focus on the goal of privatizing SS - a somewhat unpopular notion with Joe six-pack these days)
34 - DaveNalle
Cindy, I refer you to factcheck.org. Palin spoke to the AIP once and was never a member. She spoke to them as a courtesy because they held their convention in Wassila while she was mayor. Her husband registered with the party but was never an active member.
As for the AIP, it's a legal political party which espouses an extreme but not particularly evil philosophy. Why should membership even be an issue?
But your quote is pretty funny, since it's pretty close to describing the Obama's actual beliefs and actions.
Dave - he said quite clearly that because of our economic crisis the gov will not meet its social security obligations at their present rate under his administration
This isn't the 'shock doctrine', it's a fact which has been obvious for decades.
Dave
35 - troll
Dave - the point is he linked the impending cut-back with the 'crisis'...he has his justification
36 - Clavos
Debunking some of the lefty myths about McCain.
Nobama
37 - DaveNalle
troll, i would think that the bankrupt status of the SS fund and the general mathematical impossibility of the model the SS ponzi scheme is based on would be more than sufficient justification for fixing it.
Dave
38 - troll
hey - the ponzi scheme has worked pretty well to date...and I'll bet increasing the amount that the owner class contributes would enable the scheme to muddle through for a while longer
39 - Cindy D
Clav,
That "musical band" that did the debunking apparently don't actually know how to read.
In their video they are referencing a vote on a conference report that took place 7 months after the passed.
Question: On the Conference Report (S.900 Conference Report )
Vote Number: 354 Vote Date: November 4, 1999, 03:30 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Conference Report Agreed to
McCain voted yes on the Bill. Biden voted No.
Question: On Passage of the Bill (S.900 as amended )
Vote Number: 105 Vote Date: May 6, 1999, 08:14 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed
Here is the page where you can see all votes related to S.900 I think Biden was absent once. Otherwise Biden voted no on everything and McCain voted yes on everything.
Moral: Never trust a country music band to provide you with the information that you base your decisions on.
40 - Cindy D
I meant to insert "after the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act" bill passed.
41 - zingzing
dave: "Why do you lefties keep bringing up the same idiotic untruths over and over?"
it's something called tit-for-tat, dave. you should know this about american politics.
you bring up some stupid crap that has little to do with anything, we do the same!
do you really think that obama is going to turn into a government-destroying communist the second he gets into office? probably not.
do we really think that the first thing palin will do with her veep powers is lop off alaska? nah.
it's just bullshit. you know it, i know it, we all know it. but that's the fucking game.
so get over it. you are just about the worst perpetrator of this junk on this site, so don't fucking get all defensive when it's turned in your direction.
42 - Clavos
do you really think that obama is going to turn into a government-destroying communist the second he gets into office?
Nope. He already is one.
43 - bliffle
Why do you lie, Dave: "...the bankrupt status of the SS fund..."
The SS fund has more than $2trillion surplus. It's had a surplus every year for the past 25.
Please stop lying Dave.It just makes you look desperate. I know that your candidate is failing and your potemkin capitalism is failing on all sides, but lying won't save it.
As for Ponzi schemes, SS simply doesn't qualify since it takes in more than it pays out every year.
Apparently, the prime example of a Ponzi scheme is the whole private banking financial industry, which is unable to pay it's own bills.
Give up Dave. Save yourself before it's to late. Give up on the sham Market system that magically transforms itself into corporate socialism in minutes! Right in front of your own eyes!
44 - Jordan Richardson
Obama's a commie?! Sweetness!
45 - zingzing
clavos: "Nope. He already is one [a government-destroying communist]."
alright, clavos. you're obviously just being silly. he's already destroyed the government? (and i thought bush was doing his best... must have missed it.) and he's a communist... yeah, he's really living the communist dream, isn't he?
if you're going to behave like a child, go do it somewhere else.
46 - bliffle
Clavos invents some untruths:
"Goddam ACORN is one of the couple of groups absolutely at the very root of this current economic crisis. They were the racists mau-mauing Congress into making the banks give out a big portion of those stupid mortgages, both with their brownshirt tactics like showing up at bank branches to disrupt business and by hiring lobbyists to put the pressure on banks and Fannie."
Actually, ACORN supported mortgages in Chicago had a lower than average foreclosure rate.
ACORN has programs to help homeowners and renogotiated mortgages with lenders.
Seems like ACORN is working OPPOSITE to foreclosures.
I stumbled on this while trying to track down those ACORN convictions that Dave Nalle has been bragging about (but he never provided a citation for the convictions).
BestMoney article
Chicagotribune
Carolyn Patmon has lived in what she calls her "modest little house" for 38 years. At one point, she owned it free and clear. Then she took out a loan to add a sun porch.
Because she was on disability and wasn't working, she was offered a mortgage rate of 14 percent.
"But the rate was supposed to go down in a couple of years," said Patmon, 59.
It didn't. What the mortgage brokers had told her and what the fine print in the loan documents said were two different things. Within a few years, Patmon found herself owing $115,000 on a $42,000 loan " and being sued for foreclosure.
Nothing about her story is particularly remarkable these days " except how it's ending. Because Patmon went to ACORN, a nonprofit community organization with chapters nationwide, she has been able to stop the foreclosure process and is working on having her loan modified to more affordable terms.
reuters
Countrywide and ACORN Work on Blueprint for Home Retention and Foreclosure
Prevention
Company announces modification of more than 45,000 loans in 2007
CALABASAS, Calif. and NEW ORLEANS, La., Dec. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --
Countrywide Financial Corporation (NYSE: CFC) and the Association of Community
Organizations for Reform Now ("ACORN") announced a joint initiative to develop
a blueprint for home retention programs, with a particular focus on subprime
borrowers. "Countrywide and ACORN share the belief that subprime borrowers
who have demonstrated the ability and willingness to make payments should not
face foreclosure solely as the result of a rate reset,"
ACORN has been one of the nation's leading community organizations
fighting to retain the dream of homeownership for American families. From
working to pass groundbreaking legislation cracking down on predatory lending
to lobbying Federal Reserve Chief Ben Bernanke personally in an effort to
secure stronger protections for borrowers, ACORN was among the very first to
raise the specter of the looming subprime crisis more than a year ago. ACORN
has assisted thousands in recent months facing the problems of rate resets and
potential delinquencies by organizing Foreclosure Fairs in the most impacted
areas in country. Through ACORN's affiliate the non-profit ACORN Housing
Corporation, they have been providing free housing counseling to low- and
moderate-income homebuyers and assisted thousands of distressed borrowers
facing foreclosure through their Chicago call center.
Boy, this ACORN outfit sounds like a really good organization!
I'm glad that Dave and Clavos have talked so much about it so as to bring it to our attention.
Thanks, guys!
47 - Arch Conservative
I'd like to say what I hope happens to Obama if he gets elected but I don't want one of you little secret squirrels or the secret squirrels watching from the trees tattling on me so that next week some homeland security henchman are standing on my doorstep.
Use your imagination.
48 - Jordan Richardson
Pull the secret squirrels out of your ass, Archie. Horseshit hamsters are more up your, ahem, alley.
49 - bliffle
Clavos, of course, has already forfeited all credibility by volunteering to be Dave Nalles poodle.
Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don't recall it.
Maybe Clavus is still trying to learn how to use google. Here. I'll give you some help, clavos: open a browser window and type "google" into the address box, then when the Google frontpage starts up (you'll be able to identify it because it says "google" in big colorful letters) then in the search box type in:
ACORN chicage foreclosures
Have fun!
Don't be evil!
50 - troll
Acorn advocates for the working class...nothing like a crisis for clarifying things
as I type I see that the market continues its wild gyrations...the 'ownership society' evaporating before our eyes
I wonder what % of the population will still be invested when this is over
51 - Clavos
@#46:
I never wrote any of that, old man.
Time to take your meds and go back to bed, your Alzheimer's is kicking up again.
52 - Clavos
I did just what you said here, bliffle:
then in the search box type in:
ACORN chicage foreclosures
And I got nothing!
What did I do wrong? Oh wait, I KNOW what I did wrong: I followed your spelling...
Here's a citation for ya, blittle:
ACORN
53 - Dr Dreadful
I do keep my chi in a cage, but does this mean my house is about to go into foreclosure and what does all this have to do with the seed of an oak tree?
54 - Jordan Richardson
I do keep my chi in a cage
What are you feeding that thing?
55 - Clavos
I'm impressed, Doc. Keeping a chi is very chi-chi.
56 - bliffle
Boy, I'm SO glad that Dave and his pals have brought up the ACORN outfit! They sound terrific! They've done a lot of things in towns like Chicago and Boston and etc., to help homeowners. they've bought housing and revamped it for low cost, built new housing in some cases, refurbished HUD houses, etc. they've brought in banks to support financing, etc.
And they've been doing it for a long time.
Here's another article on ACORN:
National Housing Institute
57 - bliffle
Oh, so sorry Clavos. It's getting so I can't tell you and Barger apart. Watch out when I start mistaking you for Archie.
You guys are starting to look like poodles from the same litter.
58 - Dr Dreadful
What are you feeding that thing?
Acorns?
59 - Clavos
You guys are starting to look like poodles from the same litter.
I hope you have a live-in caregiver, blittle, you're so far gone you're even hallucinating.
60 - Dr Dreadful
Clav, Bliff, I like you but I'm starting to get more than a little tired of all the insults. Tone it down and stay on topic, please, or I'm going to have to bring out the scissors.
61 - Clavos
"He started it!" :>)
I'm going to have to bring out the scissors.
Just don't run...
62 - bliffle
Oh, Clavos, you've at least proven that you can read. But why waste the effort on NRO and Stanley Kurtz?
Anyway, thanks for the citation to an opinion writer in a famous partisan journal.
"October 7, 2008 7:00 AM
Planting Seeds of Disaster
ACORN, Barack Obama, and the Democratic party.
By Stanley Kurtz"
Do you ever read anything OTHER than partisan journals.
I scanned it quickly (have to run errands now) and found the article free of citations, except this half-ass citation:
By July of 1991, ACORN’s legislative campaign began to bear fruit. As the Chicago Tribune put it, “Housing activists have been pushing hard to improve housing for the poor by extracting greater financial support from the country’s two highly profitable secondary mortgage-market companies. Thanks to the help of sympathetic lawmakers, it appeared...that they may succeed.”
That seems pretty harmless, even public spirited, community building.
If you (heaven forfend!) were trying to improve housing of people wouldn't you go to lenders at some point? And it seems reasonable to ask the Big Guys.
63 - Clavos
Do you ever read anything OTHER than partisan journals.
Haven't found any non partisan sources yet, but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don't cite that with which I disagree.
64 - aRCH cONSERVATIVE
"Acorn advocates for the working class...nothing like a crisis for clarifying things"
I read once that Hitler taught orphans how to read. i GUESS HE WAS JUST MISUNDERSTOOD.
65 - Jordan Richardson
Archie, are you ever embarassed at some of the thoughts you have in your head?
66 - Franco
#49 " bliffle
Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don't recall it.
#62 " bliffle
Oh, Clavos, you've at least proven that you can read. But why waste the effort on NRO and Stanley Kurtz?
Anyway, thanks for the citation to an opinion writer in a famous partisan journal.
I scanned it quickly (have to run errands now) and found the article free of citations, except this half-ass citation:
That seems pretty harmless, even public spirited, community building.
If you (heaven forfend!) were trying to improve housing of people wouldn't you go to lenders at some point? And it seems reasonable to ask the Big Guys.
bliffle, if you had read it through carefully you could not have professed such statements.
Kurtz’s work is always fundamental, detailed, and verifiable. Of that he has proven himself time and again. Whether he is patisan or not is not the point. The only thing that matters is whether what he asserts is true or false. And you have not addressed it on those merits.
The article provides detailed citations throughout it's three pages that reveal a very serious and disturbing issue by placing ACORN at the heart of being one of the key players in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac crises.
I am not against helping people out, but are the actions of ACRON the way to do that? In what Kurtz’s has evidened, that answer is emphatically no. That is unless you think the bail out is good for all of us.
From page three of Kurtz's assertions:
"At both the local and national levels, then, ACORN served as the critical catalyst, levering pressure created by the Community Reinvestment Act and pull with Democratic politicians to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into a pattern of high-risk loans.
Up to now, conventional wisdom on the financial meltdown has relegated ACORN and the CRA to bit parts. The real problem, we’ve been told, lay with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In fact, however, ACORN is at the base of the whole mess. ACORN used CRA and Democratic sympathizers to entangle Fannie and Freddie and the entire financial system in a disastrous disregard of the most basic financial standards. And Barack Obama cut his teeth as an organizer and politician backing up ACORN’s economic madness every step of the way."
So not only does this bring up a question to you biffle, it also brings another question for Christopher Rose comment #24 and who real is that slimy snake oil salesman.
Biffle, can you honestly address the Kurtz’s pieces Clavos linked?
You are the one that stated......."Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don't recall it".
67 - bliffle
Clavos frankly reveals the source of his intellectual problems:
"Haven't found any non partisan sources yet, but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don't cite that with which I disagree."
I figured out eons ago that you can't hope to discover the truth by listening to two arguing liars.
You have to dig deep and read things like good US newspapers, foreign newspapers, Industry Journals, Engineering Journals and Science. Some government sources are very good, others have had the "cooney spin" given to them.
Sometimes you'll get a lead from an opinion journal, but usually they are very light, as you see in NRO, on actual citations.
I could paw thru the NRO Kurtz article and Fisk it paragraph by paragraph, but why should I? It's up to Kurtz to do the research and present the citations.
And I'm still waiting for that citation that will lead me to the ACORN convictions.
68 - troll
Con - I heard that even Hitler was right twice a day...or something like that
69 - Franco
#67 " bliffle
I could paw thru the NRO Kurtz article and Fisk it paragraph by paragraph, but why should I? It's up to Kurtz to do the research and present the citations.
He has done the research and prsented the citations and you have not refuted any of them and thus have not proved even one of them false.
The only thing you have proved is you can't address them and come into the arena of discustion/debate on them.
I assert that ACORN is at the heart of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout based on Kurtz's extreemly fundimental citations. They stand as fact based on that evidenct presented.
You can say all you want, but you have said nothing that discredits this reporting.
Now ever put up or shut up!
70 - Kwaayesnama
My, my, my, John McCain wants to name former eBay CEO Meg Whitman as secretary of the treasury. This is the woman that feed the eBay seller’s to death and when eBay bottomed out she quit. Years ago when I sold on eBay one of the promises was that eBay would come up with a health insurance program. To date no insurance, higher fees, more regulations and less sales. Today eBay fired 10% of their worldwide work force. This is the last person that should be in charge of the nations economy.
71 - Dr Dreadful
...but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don't cite that with which I disagree.
I couldn't help but notice, Clav, that in the Huffington Post article which Jordan links to at comment #717 on this thread, the author supplies a plethora of citations from sources with which he disagrees. The reason he does so is obvious.
While we're not necessarily held to the same standards on the comments threads, it's hardly uncommon practice.
72 - Clavos
I don't think I said it was "uncommon practice," Doc.
73 - Dr Dreadful
No, but you did say it was "natural enough" that you didn't cite dissenting sources.
74 - Clavos
Yes I did.
75 - Dr Dreadful
So there!