The U.S. endangers its own well-being by supporting Israel.
Abu Gleg was an elderly Bedouin, father of 30. Eight years ago he donated land for an American international school to build its facilities. Within the walls of that facility, an American curriculum and the noble goals of tolerance and peace were taught to the students. Over the weekend, the benevolent Bedouin and the institution he gave birth to were killed and demolished by Israeli bombers.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Ruvy
Franco, it looks like you seem to have nailed Chris down (or up). Chris is as much an elitist as is Dave Nalle - but they represent two different elites. Dave represents the elite of those who have contacts in Washington. He really is a Washington elitist - except that he lives near Austin.
Chris seems to represent the modern European pagan elite, with its view towards the future. Chris is positively hateful when it comes to religion, and not just mine. But I do not think he is hateful towards me - contemptuous perhaps, but not hateful.
77 - Jack D
" The bottom line is this: ditch Israel, and we lose access to Jerusalem. Ironically, our persistent persecution of Jews over the centuries has the same root."
I didn't realize Adolf Hitler feared losing access to Jerusalem.
78 - robertsgt40
Israel is not a sovereign nation. It is a bastard state created by The US and Great Britain(remember the balfour declaration?) The indigenous people of that are are the semites. The occupiers are the Khzars. (converted Jews). They are ungodly by any definition unless you're referring to Baal.
79 - Jet
So sayeth you robertsgt40... you should print that on a t-shirt and explain how that affects your daily life.
Better yet, how about plopping yourself down in a 1940s style concentration camp with very little food and you have to drink your own piss for water, and live 24-7 knowing you could be killed at any moment because of your religion, and you get to watch as your neighbors and loved ones are brutally shot, gassed, or thrown alive into cremation ovens.
... they you'll have the right to shoot your ignorant mouth off.
I understand that much and I'm not even jewish!
80 - Dr Dreadful
I didn't realize Adolf Hitler feared losing access to Jerusalem.
Jack, at no point did Hitler and modern Israel exist at the same time.
81 - Silas Kain
Ruvy, I must ask just how much difference is there between the Jews and Palestinians in your land today? Are not Palestinians treated as "bastard" Arab children by fellow Muslims and Arabs? Aren't the Palestinians victims of their own Arab world? It seems to me that if Israelis and Palestinians stopped and took one long, deep breath they would realize they they have so much more in common than not.
If this Gaza conflict escalates, as I expect it will, I certainly hope that the incoming Administration holds steadfast and stays out of the conflict. America has only one mission in the Middle East and that is to GET THE HELL OUT, period.
82 - Dr Dreadful
Ruvy @ #76:
Chris's many shortcomings as perceived by you pale in comparison to his single biggest character flaw, which is his inexplicable and unwavering support of Manchester United.
83 - Baritone
Much of the discourse here pretty much proves the point that each camp has its pantented set of arguments against the other. The dispute between these people goes back virtually beyond memory. Neither side has evolved beyond its nearly pre-historic hatreds.
Ruvy painstakingly goes through history damning most everyone while elevating Jews. In his biased mind, apparently only Jews deserve to be considered civilized. All others are either heathens, or pagans, or cannibals latching onto elements of the "superior" Jewish canon.
It is apparent that Ruvy has bought into the notion that Jews are "above all people that are upon the face of the earth." He looks upon the rest of the world's people as nothing more than barbarians bent on the destruction of his people.
I guess Ruvy will just have to live with that.
B
84 - Ruvy
A number of times I have seen this bullshit about the Khazars - the argument being that all Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of a Turkic people which converted to Judaism a thousand years back or more.
Proving such an argument requires three elements.
The first is linguistic. The second is genetic. The third is based on custom and history.
Ashkenazi Jews spoke Yiddish in Europe, and some still do here. I am a Yiddish speaker. If we Ashkenazim were all indeed converts and descended from the Khazars, the language of the Ashkenazim would bear proof of that. There would be dozens, if not hundreds of words of Turkic origin in Yiddish. There are a grand total of two words of Turkish origin in Yiddish. One is a derogatory term for Turk, Halvásh, the the other is a food eaten by Turks when they are in mourning - Halvá. That is all she wrote. So the linguistic test fails to prove the case.
The next test is the genetic test. Jews have a priestly caste, the kohaním. All of the priests are descended from Aharón (Aaron), the brother of Moshé (Moses). Of those claiming to be kohanim, 62% have a marker on their Y chromosomes that goes back over 100 generations. This marker appears in all groups of Jews, Ashkenazim, MizraHim and Sefaradim in roughly the same percentage. This means, in plain English, that the Ashkenazim are genetically related to the Sefaradim and MiraHim backto 100 generations or so - long before the Khazars entered the stage of human history. Genetically, Jews are all one people. So the genetics test fails to prove the Ashkenazi-Khazar link.
Finally there is the issue of cultural anthropology, history and customs. Here we hit a dead end. There is not enough knowledge of Khazar customs to say one way or another if there is or is not a tie.
So on two decisive elements of proof, the assertion fails, and on the third, there is not enough data to prove anything.
The claim falls. It is nothing more than bullshit repeated endlessly by Jew-haters round the world, particularly Arabs.
There are some Jews descended from Khazars, however. One very famous one is Isaac Asimov.
85 - Silas Kain
Is Israel escalating against the Palestinians to test Barack Obama's loyalty to Israel in advance of his becoming President? If that is the case, I would urge that the United States immediately sever diplomatic relations with Israel. I know it's a strong stance but think about it, folks. For the last 8 years we have been loyal subjects to the Saudi Royal Family. Now that habibi Bush is leaving office, does it behoove Israel to start up a storm to put the incoming President into a corner?
86 - Ruvy
Silas,
Are not Palestinians treated as "bastard" Arab children by fellow Muslims and Arabs? Aren't the Palestinians victims of their own Arab world? It seems to me that if Israelis and Palestinians stopped and took one long, deep breath they would realize they they have so much more in common than not.
I know that very well. I'm not looking to see a massacre of Arabs here by Jews and that is what I fear if HizbAllah starts to bombard us in the north, and particularly if they hit Tel Aviv.
But the Arabs (and their enablers, both Jewish and non-Jewish) are so busy screaming that Jews are the new Nazis that nobody is willing to sit down and get an intelligent solution. The Arabs are victims of their own bloodthirstiness.
Many Jews are chained to the past by looking at the Talmud, which is primarily a standard operations manual for survival in exile. Maybe you've noticed - almost half the Jews on the planet live in the Jewish homeland. We do not need a survival manual for exile anymore.
And you are right. America should stay the hell out of this conflict. There is no reason at all that Americans should die here.
87 - Ruvy
Baritone,
after 1,700 years of you stinking goyim trying to murder us off, NONE OF YOU, NOT A DAMNED ONE OF YOU, HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE US!
Just reminding you....
88 - Jack D
Ruvy's rants make him the poster boy for anti-semitism.
89 - Baritone
Ruvy,
You may believe you are on the high ground. That is your fantasy. It is in part that self-righteousness and presumption that places you and your kindred on what is not high, but shaky ground. You thumb your nose at the rest of the world at your peril.
B
90 - Silas Kain
I don't want to add fuel to the fire but I really admire Ruvy's tenacity when it comes to his people and faith. I am Unitarian and believe that inherent in every belief system is some truth. I don't agree with all of them but that doesn't discount their value among their respective believers. Insofar as "God" is concerned, I believe there is a higher power but that should not discount the principles of non-believers. We all have free will in that regard. Self-righteousness is not unique to Judaism. It is manifest in Christianity and Islam as well. Again, I ask, why haven't Palestinians and Israelis come to realize that they are on the same side of the fence when it comes to the treatment they get at the hands of their fellow Middle Easterners?
Ruvy is coming at this from the Israeli or Hebrew perspective as a people without a nation. All too often we forget that there were other nations which suffered the same way. Poland, for instance, was erased from the map and partitioned three times. Armenians were slaughtered at the hands of Turks and yet because of National Security, the United States government is too cowardly too call Turkey on the Armenian genocide. How many Native American nations have been reduced to rubble thanks to the greed and avarice of European settlers? And now we have the tragedy that is Darfur. There's no doubt that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things but that should not discount any other nation's suffering. Ruvy, we may not agree on this point but I think overall Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick with the exception of a handful who are making money and hanging on to a false sense of power.
91 - Baritone
Silas,
What you are talking about is human history. People have been slaughtering people literally for thousands of years. The various acts of mass murder and genocide you cite above are simply some of the most recent examples. I don't diminish the horror of the Nazi holocaust, or the Soviet, Chinese or Cambodian pogroms. The point being that Jews are not unique.
We want to believe that we have arrived to a point in our development wherein we have risen above such horrific tragedies. Ruvy and others similarly radical - be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Communists, etc. - are so single minded, so totally and unequivocally biased, that they can't conceive of any point of view but their own. Their prejudice is so complete, their belief in the rightness of their cause and the superiority of their particular group whatever that may be, it sets the stage for further acts of mass murder and genocide, all in the name of goodness and right, and, of course, god - good ole god.
B
92 - Ruvy
Jack's rants make him a poster boy for American ignorance about the world.
93 - zingzing
ruvy: "after 1,700 years of you stinking goyim trying to murder us off, NONE OF YOU, NOT A DAMNED ONE OF YOU, HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE US!"
while you obviously do... like anyone here took part in any of that. we have a right to judge you, ruvy. you're so far gone into your own reality that you couldn't even recognize your own hypocrisy if it was wrapped around your leg and giving you a blowjob. not to be too crass about it. but you already went there.
94 - zingzing
just to make it clear, by "we have a right to judge you, ruvy," i mean ruvy. not jews. i'm not going to pretend that the jews haven't gone through some shit over the past couple thousand years...
but ruvy, and i've said this before, you're part of the problem. or at least your attitude is. if "you stinking goyim" is in your vocabulary, i can't imagine what you have to say about the arabs.
you, and the state of israel at the moment, need to take a big valium. put it in your mouth and swallow.
95 - Silas Kain
I get your point, Baritone, and I don't dispute most of what you say. Not to sound like a broken record but it all comes down to education. If children were given a proper education including the freedom to think freely and debate perhaps there would be less conflict in this world based in the name of religion. Insofar as Israel and the Palestinians are concerned, again I see little difference in the foundation of their respective struggles. Their so-called Arab cousins treat them with the same disdain as they treat Jews. To me the Palestinian people have been brainwashed into believing that the root of all their misery comes out of Tel Aviv.
I once spoke of how my grandmother believed that Ethiopia should have been home to a new Israeli state. Many disagree. I haven't made up my mind. What I do wonder, however, is why Judaic and Christian Bible literalists haven't claimed Armenia as the Promised Land. If one were to believe the story of Noah, then one could reasonably conclude that the mountain upon which the ark rested after the receding waters was host to the new Promised Land. Mount Ararat was a part of Armenia and in their hearts the Armenians know that Turkey usurped the old mountain and should return it to Hayastan. Faithful Armenians believe to this day that they are direct descendants of Noah. If one interprets the Bible verbatim, the Armenians are quite correct.
Today's conflict in Israel is a setup in my mind. The Israeli government seems to be quite concerned about the incoming Obama Administration and they are using this interim period to propagate another round of senseless violence. If that is the case I hardly see how any intelligent diplomat could refute the notion that sitting members of the Israeli government are guilty of war crimes. The United States has no business intruding its policies on any government in the Middle East and our government would best serve OUR citizenry by concentrating on what is happening on the domestic front. We should do what George H.W. Bush should have done the night George W. was conceived... WE SHOULD PULL OUT.
96 - Ruvy
Silas,
Just a few friendly corrections for you to ponder.
Ruvy is coming at this from the Israeli or Hebrew perspective as a people
without a nationdriven out of their homeland who have successfully reclaimed it.Poland, for instance, was partitioned three times and erased from the map for a century and a half.
Armenians were slaughtered at the hands of Turks and yet because of National Security, the United States government, as well as the government of Israel, is too cowardly too call Turkey on the Armenian genocide.
Ruvy, we
may notevidently agree on this point;but I thinkoverall,PalestiniansArabs in the Land of Israel are getting the short end of the stick with the exception of a handful who aremakingstealing money, sharing it with Israeli politicians, and hanging on to a false sense of power.There's no doubtIt is doubtful that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things but that should not discount any other nation's suffering no nation has suffered so consistently attempts to exterminate it over 2,500 years.History has been nice to few nations over time. Most have been eliminated. But we Children of Israel have beaten History so far, and pray for the strength to continue to do so. Consider the meaning of rthe name "Israel", Silas. You know where to look it up in Genesis.
Something else for you to ponder.
97 - Ruvy
Gotta fix this one:
There's no doubtIt is doubtful that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things butthat should not discount any other nation's sufferingno nation has suffered so consistently attempts to exterminate it over 2,500 years.98 - zingzing
fun with html and ruvy! and changing someone's words to read like they came from a paranoid man in a cheap shit room!
99 - Ruvy
zing,
i can't imagine what you have to say about the arabs.
Perhaps we should concentrate on what I HAVE said to Arabs instead of your imaginings.... This particular Arab is a journalist who lives in Dura, not far from Be-El (and not that far from me), and who divides his time calling Jews Nazis and condemning the Talmud as racist. He has not deigned to answer me.
Reproduced for you specially, then, zing.
I am a Jewish nationalist. But I also come from a nation where I lived as a minority, and I know that living in a minority status anywhere is onerous and burdensome - even absent discrimination or persecution. The majority culture is not yours, your identity with the country somewhat tenuous, you do not feel happy saluting the flag or singing the national anthem, etc. etc. This was somewhat true in my case in the States, but I can see where any Arab living in Israel might feel the same way, only a lot more strongly. I have not forgotten this fact. I'll get back to it.
You will not hear me say, "kick out the Arabs from their homes here". I know what it is to be homeless; forcing homelessness on anyone is wrong. If someone wants to rebel against the country, that is one thing; but a man working at his business, raising his family, sending his kids to school? Or, if he is between jobs, looking for work? No, this is a man who is a decent fellow, a man who contributes to society. If his wife works, the same applies to her. That's the first point.
The second is that the economic discrimination against Arabs in Israel - all of it from the Mediterranean to the Jordan - must end. This is particularly true in the way wages are paid. An Arab must receive the same wages as an any other resident of the Land of Israel. Finally, the law must be applied equally. Unequal application of the law creates crime and is a burden on the justice system, and in addition, it creates a situation where people organize crime to make a living, and they refuse to respect the police or the law.
Now let's look harder at the issue of minority status. At this point, it is unrealistic to ask a young Arab living in Israel to serve in the Army the way we ask young Jew to. We'd be sending him off to kill other Arabs. But why shouldn't Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza vote? Why should there not be constituencies for a certain number of seats in the national parliament, with an equal number elected as they are now from proportional representation? That is how the Germans elect the lower house of their parliament. What is wrong with that?
Well, one thing that could be viewed as wrong is that the Arabs will be a minority here in this country. And more to the point, any peace settlement I envision does not allow for the return of refugees in neighboring countries. At least not yet. So, Arabs here would feel themselves burdened saluting the Shield of David, and they certainly would not wish to sing Hatiqva, the national anthem. That reflects a Jewish dream, not their dream, whatever that dream is.
A better solution can be found.
There is an Arab state that has a majority of Arabs from this country in it. Right now that country is called Jordan. It was severed illegally from the Palestine Mandate and Jewish settlement there was banned, even though it remained as part of the Palestine Mandate. But that is history, and not only is it useless to cry over spilt milk, it is impossible to unspill it. But one can put the milk bottle to good use. The Kingdom of Jordan is an Arab country, and it has an Arab culture, one not dissimilar to the one here. Arab residents of Gaza, Judea and Samaria can choose to be citizens of the Kingdom of Jordan while retaining residence in the Land of Israel. Thus they do business here, live here raise their children here, go to school here, and vote for local councils here - but they participate in Jordanian politics via delegates elected to the parliament in Amman, have the opportunity to join governing cabinets, join professional associations in either Israel or Jordan - or both, carry Jordanian passports and have a special delegation in the Israel's parliament, and a cabinet seat devoted to their affairs and needs in the Israeli government.
They do not have to feel alienated from their brethren across the Jordan - indeed many do have brethren and family across the Jordan, and they do not have to feel that they are bound to participate in a Jewish vision of the world, when it is not, in reality, their own. The taxes they pay would be divided between the local councils here, and the Jordanian government.
Under such a solution, Arab refugees from what was Mandate Palestine can be readmitted to the country, either in Judea or Samaria, or in Jordan, to begin new and better lives. What is now known as the United Palestine Appeal Inc., for example, can be mobilized for the task of seeing to it that all Arabs who are now refugees get to build lives of prosperity and dignity and see their children and grandchildren enjoy the blessings of peace.
Gaza, which is now merely an open air prison and slum (but a prosperous one for the Arab world) can be emptied out bit by bit. Its prosperity as a vegetable basket, if not for Europe, then for the Middle East can be restored.
There is money to do this. I have seen (photos of) some of the hotels in the Gulf, and if money can be found to build such fantasy palaces, money can be found to build better lives for Arabs at the western end of Asia..
Hopefully, I've not taken up too much of your time with this missive.
Peace and blessings from a cold mountain-top in Samaria,
Reuven."
I wrote a comment to the post he put on the blog this appeared on, directed at him, but again, he did not answer. I'll reproduce it for you here. His post had basically to do with how he regarded Jews who live in Judea and Samaria, concentrating on how he feels our Talmud discriminates against him and others.
Khalid,
I'm answering you as a Jew but more importantly, I'm answering you as a Child of Israel. There is a difference, an important one, and a little bit later, I'll explain why.
We are nearly neighbors, you and I. We could also be friends. I hold no ill will against you. I'm an iconoclast - I knock down false idols of hypocrisy - and for many years I wanted nothing to do with Judaism because of the hypocrisy I saw in it.
At the present moment, you are extremely angry because, among other things, you see your own people, fighters for freedom, being killed by an enemy - the armed forces of Israel. I'm not throwing a shoe at you. But by the same token, I'm painfully aware of the need for this action - not because Hamas is more violent than the PLO - but because Hamas has developed a strategy of kill first and loot later, and because they have linked up militarily with HizbAllah - which means that we are dealing with the cat's paw of the new Persian Empire. They are following their version of Sharia and the Haditha, Khalid, and whatever they do, they will not conclude peace in what they view as dar el-Harb. You know this as well as I do.
From my point of view, the problem is not that the Israeli régime seeks to eliminate a political force that they nurtured in the first place - the problem is that they wish to replace it with a corrupt Arab terror regime that believes in loot first, kill later. That is what the Oslo Accords are all about, and what the "Saudi" "peace plan" is - loot first, kill later.
The PLO and the "Saudi" régime will not conclude a real peace in what they view as dar el-Harb either. Instead, they prefer to sell greedy Israeli politicians the rope that they will use to hang them; thus there was a casino in Jericho, and plans were made for one in the Gaza Strip. Hamas upset the applecart, and took away the comfortable deals corrupt Israeli politicians had with the PLO. So the PLO wants to be rid of Hamas, and so do the Israeli politicians - and so do the masters in America and Europe the Israeli politicians serve and bow to, like a pagan bows to an idol.
Khalid, you have taken much time to talk about Judaism as you understand it. There are a few things you do not understand.
1. The proper name is the Religion of the Children of Israel, and Jews are a mere part of the Children of Israel. They are not the entirety.
2. The Talmud, written mostly in Babylon, is a survival manual for exile. The exile is coming to an end. We're in the process of coming home.
3. There will be paradigm changes in how Jews are forced to view themselves in all this. One paradigm change will be in how Jews view the Children of Kedar and Nevayot - the Children of Ishmael. In other words, Arabs.
The reason I see this and Daniella Weiss and others in the nationalist camp may have trouble seeing this is that I'm a bit ahead on the learning curve. I concentrate my study not on the Talmud, but on the Hebrew Bible including the prophetic books. My outlook is an outrider of the paradigm changes I'm talking about. What you quote looks behind to the past and not ahead to the future.
I will not argue with you if you wish to state that the present Israeli régime is corrupt, venal and discriminatory against Arabs. And I further suggest to you that the PLO is more corrupt, more venal and more discriminatory - against Christian Arabs.
In addition, if you wish to say that it is the fault of the Israelis that you and others have had to suffer under the PLO, I certainly will not argue with you. I remember how Arafat's thugs ousted local Arabs who had built a structure of "resistance" that could evolve into a local and popular régime.
So, one logical solution to all of this is to ditch the Arab thugs so you can be free of them. On our side, we have to ditch the Israeli thugs - so we can be free of them.
Think about it, and look at my proposals in a positive light, rather than a negative one.
The road to peace has many stones in it. If you help me, then perhaps together, we can move them.
I wish you a pleasant evening,
Ruvy
There it is, zing - just for you.
100 - Ruvy
And when you are done reading that comment, zing, I suggest you read this one on this thread, comment #63.
101 - Ruvy
I received this article in an e-mail from a friend living in Efrat, Ya'akov. Note what he has to say, and then go to the link and read this article in Ynetnews by Elyakim haEtzni.
To see this in ynetnews is astonishing. This is the online site of Yediot Ahronot, the newspaper with the largest circulation in Israel. Usually, their notion of “balance” involves giving editorial space to a stereotypical “right wing-nut” who comes off like Atila the Hun. The very fact that they gave editorial space to someone as articulate as Elyakim Haetzni says a great deal.
Ya’akov
The price of disengagement
From the article:
102 - Ruvy
Arutz Sheva, reporting on the BIG WHORE (Sarkozy) conferring with the Little Whore (Bashir Assad).
Sarkozy Pressures Assad to Pressure Hamas to End Violence
I almost spit my coffee on the computer screen when I read this from the article: Assad labeled Israel's counter-terror operation as "criminal", "barbaric" and "aggressive".
This is the incompetent son of the man who murdered off 20,000 Syrians using gas weapons a number of years ago.
103 - Ruvy
This came in to me as an e-mail from Aryeh Zelasko, who has a habit of noticing the threats and noticing the stuff that the idiots at the MSM either don't see or don't want to see.
I've stated time after time that the worst enemy of Israel is the United States. You've all said I'm crazy. This article is my smoking gun.
I warned you all that Obama did not like either Israel or the Jews. The mere fact that he does business with one as an advisor (Rahm Emanuel) does not change that perception, so far as I'm concerned. I've also repeated time after time that Israel would be better off without American support. It looks like I'm getting what I sought. Read and "enjoy".
U.S. Intelligence Official about Israel: "This is just the beginning" from the Northeast Intelligence Network
From the article:
104 - Jack D
##88 " January 5, 2009 @ 19:14PM " Jack D
“Ruvy's rants make him the poster boy for anti-semitism.”
#92 " January 6, 2009 @ 02:59AM " Ruvy
“Jack's rants make him a poster boy for American ignorance about the world.”
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Some of what I know about the world is that a civilized state does not act as a bully and commit wanton aggression and killing of women and children. Criminals do it but that does not excuse civilized states from committing such senseless killing.
105 - Silas Kain
Personally I have nothing against the Jews but I have a lot of issues with Israeli politicians. But, then again, I have a lot of issues with Christian and Muslim politicians. Wait a minute. I have issues with all politicians. Hate the sin not the sinner. Hate the politicians not the religious.
I'm worried about what Israel is doing in Gaza and I continue to believe this is less about Palestinians and more about testing Obama. If that proves to be the case then every Israeli official responsible should be tried for war crimes in Nuremberg. Whilst some may find that statement subconsciously anti-Semitic I assure you it is not. What it does is drive home the point to those Israeli officials who have used their victimization at the hands of the Nazis to their advantage as opposed to the welfare of their Nation.
Right now we citizens of the U.S. are so preoccupied with the economy that we aren't paying attention to Gaza. What we fail to realize is that our dependence upon various opposing factions in the Middle East bear a direct link to our economic fate.
106 - Ruvy
Silas,
Israeli politicians are scared shitless of Obama. Many of them know what is coming in the article I posted about the new openly Israel-hostile regime America will have.
Those who think that they will have time to finish the campaign they think they are waging there are fooling themselves.
The timing of this campaign was originally designed to allow
1. the Labor and Kadima parties to benefit from looking like "peace" parties for their primaries and war parties before the elections;
2. the IDF to help Mahmoud Abbas hold on to power in the PA and prevent Hamas from ousting him; and
3. the Israeli government to take advantage of the lame duck status of George Bush.
The idea was to have had the whole thing wrapped up before Obama took office with facts (American soldiers) on the ground at the Philadelphi crossing.
107 - Ruvy
Jack,
Israel has been run by criminals for quite some while now. America has too. And you were saying?
108 - Jack D
"Israel has been run by criminals for quite some while now. America has too. And you were saying?"
I would agree with your statement.
They all have violated Internationsl Law.
109 - bliffle
"Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?"
I think the answer is that we look alike. We wear the same kind of clothes, live the same kind of lives in the same kind of houses, etc.
110 - Silas Kain
Really? I thought it was because our defense contractors and Wall Street depend on them.
111 - Zedd
When South Africa was still under apartheid it seemed incomprehensible that the SA government thought that a quelling of civil unrest was an indication of a sort of settlement or agreement between the two sides. While we were under siege living under the tyranny of the apartheid, blacks and Indians, Whites lived their lives relatively unaffected.
I think its difficult to see why a cease fire wouldn't make sense to Palestinians. Their condition even during a cease fire is an attack, a constant, day to day declaration of combat. Their low status and meager existence is unacceptable and to them is an ongoing attack. They don't get to go to Cafes and resume anything after a cease fire takes place. They live as second class people in their own land. How, why, when anyone would ever be expected to be fine with that is baffling.
It's difficult for those in power to see themselves as oppressive, especially those who have been oppressed like the Hebrews. However this may be a weird manifestation of the stockholm syndrome.
Just offering a different perspective.
112 - Mark Edward Manning
Kenn, I'll make this really simple for you:
We are allied with Israel because it is the ONLY true democracy in the entire Middle East region.
End of.
113 - Ruvy
Mark,
You're a great guy and I appreciate all the kind things you say about Israel.
But the bitter truth is that Israel is as much a democracy as Siberia is a tropical zone or Madonna a chaste and virginal nun....
I don't like saying that. It's much easier and far more soothing to believe all the bullshit pumped out by the agit-prop machine of the People's Republic of Tel Aviv, or if not them, then the oy-oy-oy let's dance the hora religious Zionists.
But the bitter truth, bitter as it is, is far preferable to the pretzel twisting lies of the of the People's Republic of Tel Aviv, the "wink wink, don't look but blink," half-blindness of the religious Zionists, or the pathetic naïve Zionism of Jews overseas. I can't criticize this last bunch. I was once part of it.
Israel has the political culture of eastern Europe, of Poland in particular. This means that you are free - so long as you agree with the leader. Disagree and you are automatically a traitor. This is not an ideological attitude, but a cultural one. And the "disagree and you are a traitor" trait is found all across the political spectrum here, and is a trait endemic to tyrannies, not to democracies.
Sorry, Mark.
I'm really sorry to say that, but it is the truth.
114 - Mark Edward Manning
Fair enough, Ruvy. Coming from you, that carries a lot of weight, so I won't argue with you. You know much better than I. It proves that, contrary to how some perceive you here on BC, you can be practical and fair-minded in your criticism.
Now then ... if you think I'm such a great guy then perhaps you'll refrain in future from lobbing an ad hominem at me as you once did regarding my old signature photo. I said nothing about it at the same, but for a while it caused me to feel very differently about you.
Sorry, but it had to be said ...
115 - Dave Nalle
We wear the same kind of clothes,
So Bliffle, do you wear tight jeans and a silk shirt unbuttoned to your navel with a gold chain?
Dave
116 - Cindy D
ROFLOL!
Thanks Dave, my keyboard loves coffee.
117 - Cindy D
And it's almost as good as wasabi, when it comes out of your nose.
118 - Clavos
@#114,
Truth is, Mark, that old photo didn't do you justice. The new one is a BIG improvement.
119 - Les Slater
I found a naïve, reactionary and fundamentally pro-Israeli article, 'An inside story of how the US magnified Palestinian suffering" with an interesting take on U.S. involvement
120 - Dan(Miller)
Les, I agree that the linked article is "naïve," but I don't see that it is either "reactionary" or "fundamentally pro-Israel;" indeed, it seems to be more or less fair and balanced in its naïve fashion, counting on a diplomatic process which seems to have little if any chance of either protecting Israel from the continuing rocket attacks and possibly worse in the future, or bringing peace and prosperity to Palestine. The Hamas
I have seen no amelioration of this position. This appears to place a negotiated peace beyond the ability of even the best and brightest diplomats to secure -- even a peace czar as the article suggests.Dan(Miller)
121 - Les Slater
Dan,
It is implicit in the article that the author supports the right of Israel to exist. There can be no lasting solution while an Israeli regime occupies a land where the original peoples are disenfranchised.
The only solution is a one-state solution where peoples can live as complete equals. A Jewish state is a complete negation of such. What is needed is a secular democratic Palestine.
Neither Hamas nor Fatah are the way forward. The occupation, embargo and attacks by Israel should be unhesitantly condemned and a demand for their halt put forward in the strongest terms.
Only when the jackboot of the Israel capitalist state is off the necks of not only the Palestinians but the Jewish workers, farmers and middle classes will the peoples of the region begin to have a chance to develop a leadership to bring not only peace but justice.
Les
122 - Dan(Miller)
Les, re the last paragraph in your Comment #121 -- you may of course be correct. However, I fear that these things will not happen until after the second, third and forth comings, the end of the next ice age, and the re-election of Jimmy Carter. In the meantime, some other means will have to be sought to make the situation tolerable.
Dan(Miller)
123 - Les Slater
"...I fear that these things will not happen until after the second, third and forth comings, the end of the next ice age..."
Similar to what many thought about apartheid South Africa. It was the persistent putting forward the idea of a non-racial South Africa that finally won the day. The 'Freedom Charter' of the ANC was one that all progressive forces could unite around.
124 - bliffle
"Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?"
Well there's one good strategic reason. If we abandoned Israel, then (probably) Big War would break out in the ME, somebody would start throwing nukes and the Russians and/or the Chinese would come in on the side of the non-israels with Big Nukes of their own, Israel would be obliterated, and then the combined forces of Russia, China and the ME would be arrayed against the US and the west. They'd be armed, trained, experienced and ready for global war.
So, by putting up with these petty offenses in Gaza we can delay that day.
125 - Jack D
#120 " January 11, 2009 @ 14:05PM " Dan(Miller)
"The Hamas charter states (Article 13) that "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavor."
One reason that was said is because every time there were initiatives, proposals and international conferences, Israel kept confiscating more and more Palestinian land and destroying more Palestinian crops.
Jihad started long after the occupation began in 1967. Hamas was not formed until 1988 in response to the 20-year Israeli occupation.
Many Palestinians have been fooled too many times to trust Israeli politicians.