McCain showed great courage once. How does his courage compare to that of Senator Obama?
"When the USS Abraham Lincoln is in Jebel Ali, we're going to blow up a boat next to it."…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Why Obama Deserves the Respect of Conservatives - Comments Page 3
Article comments
76 - Dave Nalle
Actually, Dr. D., I didn't even notice that Clavos had mentioned the guy's political affiliation. I was reacting to the idea of taking tax money to provide sub-standard housing to the poor. I've seen what section 8 housing looks like in Austin and how the landlords treat the residents. I'm not impressed regardless of their political affiliation.
Dave
77 - Cannonshop
There's landlords that rent to section 8, and then, there's Section-8 Landlords, and there IS a distinction.
The distinction's pretty easy to make-the ones who merely rent a few units to Section 8 tend to take care of their buildings, fix problems as promptly and properly as they are able, and are good landlords.
"Section 8" landlords are landlords that would otherwise have no other tenants because nobody who can pay their own way would EVER live in the unmaintained, filthy hellholes they run and own. These, I believe, are the scum that Dr Dreadful is referring to in the second paragraph of comment #74, which are indeed your Slumlords, Dave.
And unless I miss my guess, what Clavos may have been indirectly referring to, is simply that said "liberal democrat" naturally profits (per your comment #72, Doc) from government largesse in the form of HUD, provided he keeps his costs bracketed within what the HUD boys are willing to part with-which, in turn, infers that he's got a vested interest in ensuring the expansion of the section 8 programme, since more funds tends to, at least somewhat, lead to more pay-outs and increased rates of return.
Profiting, in other words, from Public Funds that would otherwise not increase without political pressure from the left.
IOW, the guy has a direct financial reason for his political stance, and a vested interest in keeping the money from the treasury going into the programme-a condition unlikely to occur if the wrong party is elected.
78 - Clavos
Bingo, Cannon, on every point in the second half of your comment.
To top it off, this guy's buildings are, get this:
waterfront in South Beach! They're fairly old, and were built in the days when South Beach wasn't trendy, but rather was God's waiting room for elderly (mostly Jews) on fixed incomes who retired down here from the Northeast. At the time the buildings were built, land in the area was not expensive, because it was a geriatric slum.
Now, the land under them is worth a substantial fortune, and inevitably, he will sell. Just as inevitably, the buildings will be torn down, and luxury condos will rise in their place.
BTW, Doc, you're right; this guy's responsible, and the buildings, while basic, are not slums.
But, Cannon's also right; he's become a multimillionaire on the taxpayers.
79 - Baritone
Clav,
I haven't followed this entire thread, just the last few entries regarding Section 8 landlords.
Your last line: "he's become a multimillionaire on the taxpayers.
That's true of a lot people and a lot of companies, is it not? There are hundreds of examples - some obvious, some not so obvious.
Here in Indy a couple of brothers, Victor and Herman Krannert were young, not so successful entrepreneurs back in the mid-1930s. They were trying to build a "container" business with little success until shortly after some Japanese bombs were dropped somewhere out in the Pacific.
The Krannert boys managed to get a government contract to produce water proof (or perhaps more accurately, water resistant ) boxes for the Army- Air Force and Navy. They made a lot of boxes - and a lot of money - virtually all of it from the government.
Out of that came Inland Container Corporation. Not a household name but any means, but it was, until it was absorbed by some other conglomerate several years ago, one of the larger corporate entities in Indiana. The Krannerts have their name on the performing arts center at the University of Illinois (both brothers were Illini alums,) and on the main pavilion of the Indianpolis Museum of Art.
I'm not too sure why I went into all this, but it just seems that sometimes people or companies who make money from the government are considered badly. Hell, everybody does it. I occasionally do work directly for HUD, and they pay me for it.
B
80 - Dr Dreadful
I've seen what section 8 housing looks like in Austin and how the landlords treat the residents.
And how did you identify the 'Section 8 housing', Dave? Is there a sign to the effect outside the complex? Of course there isn't. There is no 'designated' Section 8 housing. It's private rental.
This is probably the kind of thing you have in mind when you think of Section 8. Then again, this is also 'Section 8 housing'.
In Austin.
You just never know.
81 - moon
Here's a story about Section 8 landlords:
Back in about 1980 I had a deadbeat friend who manipulated his already guilt-wracked Jewish father into sending him a monthly stipend (he--the deadbeat--was 38 at the time). He was the first Remittance Man I had met.
I met him when he had a summer job with the King County Work Training Program placing low-income teenagers in summer jobs in social service agencies. Anyway, the salary for his job didn't allow him to catch up with the rent that he owed to his landlord, who was also his friend, so when the job ran out the DB got himself qualified for Section 8 housing, and set off in search of new digs.
He soon found a little house in Madison Valley (this is Seattle we are talking about) that was up for rent under Section 8, and his landlord was so desperate to get a paying tenant that he agreed to PAY for the movers and the van to move the DB to the little house in Madison Valley.
My friend Juana lives about halfway between the DBs old digs and the little house in Madison Valley, and as we thought that the DB had moved, we buzzed over to check out what was being offered through the Section 8 folks.
The house looked marginal, but not any different from its neighbors.
We knocked on the door, and no one answered.
Odd, we thought, as we could hear a t.v. playing.
We circled the house, peeked in the back door--from which vantage point we could only see feet and socks of the t.v. watcher--continued to the window where the rabbit ears were visible, and yanked the ears outside--thinking that perhaps the DB had fallen asleep in front of the t.v.
No response.
We left.
Turns out it was the right house all right, but that the LANDLORD was living in it--he had rented it to six people and refused to let any of the folks move in.
The DB prevailed, finally, and the police escorted him and the moving van paid for by the previous landlord to the new digs.
The DB lived there only a short time, as the landlord made a number of threats against his life, and on more than one occasion showed up with a 38 special in his hand.
The guy was finally sentenced to life imprisonment, if I remember correctly, as a Habitual Criminal.
The DB gave testimony against him in the case--and was in the newspapers talking about the 38 special and referring to himself as a CONSULTANT.
The HB (Habitual Criminal, yes) said everyone was prejudiced against him because he was black and out to get him because he HAD a lot of oud music.
Section 8 sounds to me like it's worth extinction.
82 - moon
Oops, that should be LOUD music. The HB was nowhere sopisticated enough to have an oud.
83 - moon
HC, sorry. I am going to have to use an internet cafe that has LIGHTS.
84 - Dr Dreadful
Funny story, Moon - but you should probably update your reading. Section 8 (now more properly known as the Housing Choice Voucher Program) has changed a lot since 1980.
85 - moon
Doc,
And just WHY should a person who has lived in Mexico for more than 15 years and who would never consider returning to Gringolandia and who has no need whatsoever for subsidized housing update her reading about Section 8?
What IS your problem, man?
I couldn't care less about Section 8 or any other section.
Nor, for that matter, is this article about Section 8.
It just reminded me of a funny story.
Let it effing go.
86 - Clavos
Such a charmer...
87 - Dr Dreadful
Who, Clav - me or Moon?
88 - Clavos
Not you, Doc...
89 - moon
A charmer, and a truthteller, too.
Unlike some people on this site.
90 - Clavos
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
And you still haven't produced any proof that ballots are being willfully thrown away, though both Lisa and I challenged you more than once on the point.
Until you do, you're a liar in my book...
91 - moon
It won't work, clavos.
Anyone who read the exchange knows that both Cannon and I produced proof a long time ago and that you commented on it and sneeringly asked me wasn't that easier than just giving my opinion.
And also that you made what you called a "partial retraction".
You are posting in the hopes that folks have a memory equal to that of a mosquito, which is an insult to other posters.
You call me a liar and scorpion both in the same post, but you aren't rancorous? Right.
Apparently the Comments Editor is asleep at the switch, or has decided to promote the personal attacks made against this poster yet again by Clavos.
In any event, I will respond to no further personal attacks.
92 - Baronius
Clav, I'm surprised that you're even talking to her. I remember that you were the target of some of her nastiest personal attacks before she was kicked off this site. Lisa, I can understand. She wasn't here during the last blizzard.
I still suspect that she isn't real, but the product of some grad school study in conflict, designed to measure responses to unprovoked hostility. Either way, I don't think she's worth replying to.
93 - moon
Baronius,
I am not sure who gave you a candle in this wake, as we say here in Mexico.
Perhaps you would like to tell us who that person was?
In the meantime, although clavos was told by the Comments Editor not to start up with his personal attacks again, he has clearly decided that he's going to get even for taking it in his manhood the last time round.
But I don't have to bring all that up again, do I?
Not when there are folks like YOU who come on and stir the pot.
Stir all you like.
Apparently you have nothing better to do.
Fortunately, I do--and have gotten behind on it while replying to ankle-biters.
Over and out.
94 - Clavos
You are posting in the hopes that folks have a memory equal to that of a mosquito, which is an insult to other posters.
Wrong. I have said from the start (and even when I accepted your evidence as to the mishandling of votes in WA) that you never provided proof of your allegation that ballots have been willfully thrown away. Lisa challenged you on the same point, and you have not responded with proof ON THAT POINT to either of us, leaving me to conclude that your failure to respond stems from your having lied about that point.
You call me a liar and scorpion both in the same post, but you aren't rancorous? Right.
I never said I wasn't rancorous, I simply corrected your misspelling of the word. On the contrary, I delight in being rancorous to you and your ilk.
And if calling you a liar constitutes a personal attack, then you are far guiltier than I, for you have not only called me one repeatedly, but nearly everyone else on these threads as well.
95 - Clavos
You're right, Baronius, I shouldn't lower myself to her level, and even worse, legitimize and dignify her bullshit by responding to it.
I like your grad school conflict study theory; it goes a long way toward explaining her vitriol.
96 - Cindy D
I think moon said something along the lines (pardon my personal take on it) of what the fuck is the difference between tossing them into the garbage or under the bearskin rug or behind the divan in the study?
If they are put somewhere that is less than the place where they are counted, who gives a shit?
Take it as metaphor.
What kind of stupid argument is this?
97 - Dave Nalle
And how did you identify the 'Section 8 housing', Dave? Is there a sign to the effect outside the complex? Of course there isn't. There is no 'designated' Section 8 housing. It's private rental.
In Austin there are a number of apartment complexes built specifically for the Section 8 market, all built in a certain area of the east side of town. I'm in touch enough with the community to know which ones they are.
In Manor where I live just outside of Austin we have 1 complex built specifically as Section 8 housing and I'm very familiar with it because I know the manager and have heard her complaints about how the owner hamstrings her and fails to provide decent services to the residents.
This is probably the kind of thing you have in mind when you think of Section 8.
Not in this area.
Then again, this is also 'Section 8 housing'.
That picture didn't come through, but I assume it was nicer looking. In fact, several of the Section 8 oriented complexes around here are quite attractive. But being new and painted pretty colors doesn't matter nearly as much as whether they are ADA compliant and the AC works and they have hot water - all things which don't show in a pretty picture.
Dave
98 - Dr Dreadful
But being new and painted pretty colors doesn't matter nearly as much as whether they are ADA compliant and the AC works and they have hot water
They have to have all those things, or they won't pass a Section 8 inspection.
99 - Dave Nalle
They have them at inspection time, Dr. D. Surely you're more in touch with the real world than you make out.
For example, in this one three-story complex I'm particularly familiar with they are supposed to have an elevator, but it worked for two weeks when the place opened and has only worked very occasionally since then. In the same place, they have central AC units for multiple apartments instead of individual units, so they are underpowered and inadequate when it gets really hot.
You know how it works. They meet minimal compliance standards - it helps that they're under county inspection rather than in the city - and then let things run down until they are forced to bring things back to compliance and then it starts all over again.
Dave
100 - pablo
God forbid subsidizing the poor through Section 8 Nalle, now that is Socialism. Smirk.
Does your heart even beat?
101 - moon
Cindy,
Not only that but clavos is so desperate to get SOMETHING, ANYTHING on this poster that he transparently loads his dictates: He has used the word WILLFULLY to imply that one can prove INTENTIONS behind the action of throwing out the absentee ballots.
I am not going to go there--I already posted in response to one of Nalle's statements of fractured logic that evidence cannot be provided for INTENTIONS.
There are several differences between me and clavos:
1. I don't mistake propaganda for information. In fact, I teach my students how to make that distinction.
2. I don't post other OPINIONS to justify my own, but facts and information.
3. I am not a redneck, but a redskin.
4. I find sucking up to Nalle or to anyone else to get privileges on a site where nobody makes money except the owners beyond senseless.
5. I am not a macho who whinges and pules if someone insults my machismo and demands that the person be banned. The Red Queen's "Off with her head!" cry is something I don't need to do.
6. To date, no one would confuse me with a character in a Carl Hiassen novel about swamprats and corruption in South Florida.
I am sure there are many more, but they aren't any more interesting than the ones I just posted.
PS: I live in the state of Morelos, which is the Scorpion Capital of Mexico. I like them. My daughter, both brothers and my father: Scorpios. I have Scorpio ascending, as did my mother.
I have managed to make peace with them all--including myself--and perhaps because of that the sting of the scorpion gives me much-cherished energy.
Go figure.
102 - Cindy D
Baronius,
I just discovered your reply now.
In that sense, you don't call her a racist. You do call her an uncaring imposer of the dominant culture. How is that better?
(snip)
For the life of me, I can't see how the facts support your accusations.
I couldn't expect that you would understand my world view. But it is my world view. It's not just something I made up to attack Palin. This view is expressed in many statements I have made.
I realize you don't see a large difference between calling someone a racist and calling someone an unquestioning perpetrator of the sins* of the dominant culture.
Blatant "racism" is not currently "approved" by the dominant culture. Whereas, continuing to ignore the "other" is still perfectly legitimate. Palin's Utopian lens: "We see America as a force of good in this world." This is the same world view we are embedded with from kindergarten.
We are America the Beautiful. Don't question that, you might be seen as "unpatriotic". This Utopianizing allows us to blindly gloss over contradictions, that say something quite different.
Unless one actively challenges and questions the tenets of the dominant culture--one remains unaware of its influence. Once one does begin to question, one may realize, as I did, that one holds may "beliefs" to be "facts" or "truths"--
truths one has never even considered. How did all those truths I took for granted get in my head in the first place? We are not educated so much as indoctrinated.
How can you perceive yourself as a force for good in the world when you are actively trying to deprive part of your own people of they're hard won rights?
*3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
Thank you for your reply.
103 - Cindy D
correction: "holds many beliefs"
104 - Dave Nalle
God forbid subsidizing the poor through Section 8 Nalle, now that is Socialism. Smirk.
Does your heart even beat?
Pablo, I criticized slumlords taking advantage of Section 8 to line their own pockets while neglecting the needs of their tenants. How can you find concern about that problem to be heartless?
Dave