Doesn't the Catholic Church know that Walmart has the sacred American right to exploit workers with poverty level wages while the company founders are the richest people in America? It almost seems from the following statement that the Catholic Church actually is completely opposed to our Administration on a basic issue... Perhaps good Catholics shouldn't have voted for Bush and shouldn't vote for Republicans in general due to their anti-union practices? They may or may not have reasons to vote for Democrats, but there are definite reasons that people of deep spiritual values should not vote for Republicans either.…
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76 - Dave Nalle
>>as i've stated before..i vote with my dollars too..and i wouldn't buy shit from wal-mart if they paid ME to take it away<<
Have you considered the implications of this? If you and others stopped shopping at WalMart, then presumably the company would start to lose money and shut down - or more realistically let's say you pressed a magic button and shut WalMart down.
When all the WalMarts shut their doors, what would happen to the employees working there? They aren't employable at a higher wage because they don't have the skills, so they either end up unemployed or they end up going to WalMart's - very happy and rapidly growing - competitors, where they have to start over again at a new-hire salary, lose whatever benefits and seniority they've accrued, and aren't treated any better than they were at WalMart - quite likely worse because Target and BigK no longer feel as much pressure from WalMart to be competitive in how they treat their workers.
So, if you win your battle against WalMart, it's the workers who lose. Might as well go buy some cheap crap and smile at the greeter and remember you're keeping that geezer in diapers.
Dave
77 - gonzo marx
oh nice try here Dave...
Dave sez..
*or more realistically let's say you pressed a magic button*
now read that to yerself again..yep, you typed it...best laff i've had all night..
Dave also sez...
*They aren't employable at a higher wage because they don't have the skills*
yer gonna hafta prove that one to me..i have no way of knowing the skill sets of any employeees i don't know personally..and the ones i know are either retired, ro students...so they skew the curve...
now..all joking aside fer just a second here...i DO understand yer point...and it seems yer taking the opposite of yer usual position..
what i propose is an excercise fo the Free Market in action...they can either change their Policies...stop buying goods from sweatshop and child labor, pay their workers a bit better...and charge 20 cents to a dollar or two more per product...or they don't get my money..if your "magic button" makes them close due to millions following my peculiar Ethical standards of shopping, then the Free Market Theory clearly states that something else will fill the Void...the Labor Pool should be utilized in either the replacement business or others that expand to fill the rift
and so i will hoist you upon yer own rhetorical petard...
i have no problem with the Concept of Wal-Mart's business model, per se...just Ethical difficulties with soem of their practices...
and since my money is a tiny part of the Market Equation...i choose to excercise my Ethical Principles via the Variable of my purchasing Power in the forlorn hopes that the "ripples" formed fro the "pebble" i toss into the "pond" will have whatever infinitesmal impact upon the far "shore"
or more simply put...nyaaaah nyaaaah!
{8^P~~~~~~~
Excelsior!
78 - Dave Nalle
>>now read that to yerself again..yep, you typed it...best laff i've had all night..<<
That was entirely intentional. The point being that you've got more chance of impacting WalMart with a magic button than with your one-man boycott.
>>Dave also sez...
*They aren't employable at a higher wage because they don't have the skills*
yer gonna hafta prove that one to me..i have no way of knowing the skill sets of any employeees i don't know personally..and the ones i know are either retired, ro students...so they skew the curve...<<
Would they work at WalMart if they had the skills to get a better job?
>>.if your "magic button" makes them close due to millions following my peculiar Ethical standards of shopping, then the Free Market Theory clearly states that something else will fill the Void...the Labor Pool should be utilized in either the replacement business or others that expand to fill the rift<<
But will you acknowledge that if that logical outcome were to come about the workers would be WORSE off, not better?
>>and since my money is a tiny part of the Market Equation...i choose to excercise my Ethical Principles via the Variable of my purchasing Power in the forlorn hopes that the "ripples" formed fro the "pebble" i toss into the "pond" will have whatever infinitesmal impact upon the far "shore"<<
I think you summed that up well. Kind of like King Canute putting his throne on the beach and ordering the waves not to wet him.
Dave
79 - gonzo marx
oh Dave..i do so enjoy this..allow me to elucidate..
Dave sez..
*That was entirely intentional. The point being that you've got more chance of impacting WalMart with a magic button than with your one-man boycott.*
my boycott is for my own sense of well being..i harbor no Illusions as to the extent of it's impact beyond soothing my own psyche
Dave sez...
*Would they work at WalMart if they had the skills to get a better job?*
depends on whether the deciding factor is their skills or the availability of a better job due to the gutting of the manufacturing sector (heh..see, i didn't forget your disdain for heavy industry and it's "dead end" as you put it)
Dave sez..
*But will you acknowledge that if that logical outcome were to come about the workers would be WORSE off, not better?*
nope...not enough data to formulate the Hypothetical beyond what i stated in my previous Posting about the Theory involved..
Dave sez...
*I think you summed that up well. Kind of like King Canute putting his throne on the beach and ordering the waves not to wet him.*
heh...my Throne...i'll place it where i like...and if the waves will not listen, then i will show my displeasure by breaking out the Royal heat gun and evaporate those waves that offend me, to send the rains out so they may irrigate the fields and yeild the Bounty of the Land....
so mote it Be!
Excelsior!
80 - Dave Nalle
>>*Would they work at WalMart if they had the skills to get a better job?*
depends on whether the deciding factor is their skills or the availability of a better job due to the gutting of the manufacturing sector (heh..see, i didn't forget your disdain for heavy industry and it's "dead end" as you put it)<<
Now you know as well as I do that the people who used to be in heavy industry all work at Home Depot now, not WalMart.
>>*But will you acknowledge that if that logical outcome were to come about the workers would be WORSE off, not better?*
nope...not enough data to formulate the Hypothetical beyond what i stated in my previous Posting about the Theory involved..<<
The whole discussion is theoretical, so I bet you could come up with a theoretical answer based on a logical analysis of the hypothetical data.
Dave
81 - gonzo marx
heh..ko..you asked fer it..let's see if i can spew this out before i have to leave fer Work..
a "Fractured Fairy Tale"
in the above Scenario, a wal-mart has been driven out of business, the workers let go and the building goes up for sale
due to the closure a hard working lower Executive gets fired due to cost cutting..he thinks to himself ..."self...i bet i could do this better"
he goes to a bank and talks to a junior loan officer whose Heart has not been deadened yet by the job...the two talk and go over the business plan and a Loan is given after our intrepid Hero puts up his "life, fortune and sacred honor" for collateral
he buy the store and begins to hire the workers back...then begins scouring the Nation then the world for Ethical suppliers for goods to sell...first Priority is to buy American whenever possible...barring that, he purchases from Companies that clearly demonstrate Ethical practices
the store fills up, prices are 5 to 10 % higher than they had been...the old workers buzz like bees, happy to have their jobs....the day the store is to open he holds a meeting and tells them all his Vision..
"we are going to show the World how it can be done people..i vow to keep my own salary, and that of all management pinned to performance, just like yours...and i will go the japanese CEO's one better...no matter what, my compensation will never exceed 100 times the average worker in the stores!"
there was much rejoicing...the store opens and word of mouth spreads..the community...grateful for the re-opening, comes to visit..grumbling a bit abotu the prices...but not too bad because they are comparable..and they notice how happy the staff is, and find they are getting the best customer service they have ever seen in their lives...old people saying "this is how it used to be when i walked barefoot to school in the old days, uphill in the snow..both ways"
a few months and all is going well, slow growth as more hear of this new place...the local news does a segment on it..that gets picked up by a national network, the 'Net is a buzz, and cable news carries the Story
now venture Capitalists visit our Hero, trying to find out his "secret" and offering the world...he talks with them all until he finds some that share his Vision and he uses the money to buy a few more closed wal-marts
the public cheers, the re-jired workers will chew rocks for the man, the Fame spreads ..a few more stores are bought...now he takes his Company public
few "professional" investment firms will touch it at first...but individuals like it and diversify some of their tiny portfolio's into the stock
the surge of new capital is used to buy some more wal-marts...a few closed malls...the added purchasing power allows larger volume purchases, and better deals with suppliers follow..prices lower a little bit, this is greeted by better sales...some of the profits are shared with ALL the workers equally as a percentage of their salaries...medical benefits are added shortly after
now more ex-executives from all over the country are taking notice, and applying to work...our Hero uses more capital to expand, and takes some of the influx from stock sales to begin new businesses...ran by these executives, to manufacture some of the more hard to get goods in th U.S. under the stores brand
more manufacturing jobs are created...following the same principles as the parent company...the little towns where these businesses are created come back to life as more folks have decent jobs...the new chain store opens in these emerging markets and people can buy the goods and services offered there
and so on and so forth..our Hero , true to his woprd keeps his, and all managers and executives salaries pinned to performance..and using the "rising tide" model of demand rather than the "trickle down" of supply siders he continues to provide quality goods, lowering the prices as he is able to continue to make a honest profit...sharing that with the labor force that provides the exemplary service...the average wages fall comfortably into the middle class...the executives are happy..dividends ar epaid to the stockholders...and more closed wal-marts are bought
they expand to fill the Void and live happily ever after...
just call me Aesop.....heh
Excelsior!
82 - Dave Nalle
Nice fantasy story, but you left out the part where a Target opens next door to his first store, sells the same products for 10% less and he's out of business in a month and all his employees end up working at Target.
You also forgot the part where he can't get products at competitive prices when he's buying for fewer stores than WalMart is, so his prices are actually more like 20-30% higher, so he has to cut employee wages to make up the difference, so he can't hire quite as good a set of employees as WalMart leading to more theft, spoilage and workers comp claims, raising his expenses even more.
Of course, if the guy was truly smart he'd open a specialty store selling only a limited selection of more unusual products at a good price, but more specialized and clearly higher quality than the chain stores can match. Without that competition he can afford to pay higher wages and all his dreams come true.
Dave
83 - gonzo marx
oh Dave...silly man, even before coffe this morning i was at least as clever as any phlogiston chemist...
scroll back up and pay closer attention..you will see that i clearly show our intrepid Hero ONLY purchases supplies that pass his Ethical standards and fit his business model..thus making him a "specialty" shop which expands goods and services as buying power increases, thus ensuring a downward trend in prices while enabling slow growth of profit.
second..if you look at the placement of wal-mart and target properties, you will not a large geographic distance...this is carefully studied by their marketers based on traffic flow and a host of other actuarial factors...thus the two are never near each other and no such large structure can be built physically close to where the wal-mart is placed...
that shoots down yer objection while i am eating my lunch..
stay tuned, gentle Readers for part 2 of our little Saga...as soon as i get home from work...heh
Excelsior!
84 - Dave Nalle
>>oh Dave...silly man, even before coffe this morning i was at least as clever as any phlogiston chemist...<<
Ah, so you believe in phlogiston. That explains much. Perhaps with its mystical power these dreams you envision could come to pass.
>>scroll back up and pay closer attention..you will see that i clearly show our intrepid Hero ONLY purchases supplies that pass his Ethical standards and fit his business model..thus making him a "specialty" shop which expands goods and services as buying power increases, thus ensuring a downward trend in prices while enabling slow growth of profit.<<
If they are 'ethical' equivalents of mass market goods then he's just purchasing more expensive alternatives to what a regular Target or WalMart would carry, and putting himself at a price disadvantage. If they are different goods which are 'ethical' but not at all the same as what's in a WalMart, then it's really not the same kind of store at all, and he might have a chance, but he won't be attracting the same customers and might need to have a different sort of employee as well.
>>second..if you look at the placement of wal-mart and target properties, you will not a large geographic distance...this is carefully studied by their marketers based on traffic flow and a host of other actuarial factors...thus the two are never near each other and no such large structure can be built physically close to where the wal-mart is placed...<<
Yes, but his store is no longer a WalMart, it's an 'ethically pure WalMart equivalent'. WalMart and Target would be crawling all over each other to put in a store near him and drive him out of business. They do it all the time.
Dave
85 - RJ
"Everybody has a Wal-Mart opinion. Meanwhile their prices cannot be equaled and their goods are more than satisfactory. The folks that work there aren't exactly rocket scientists and generally get paid what they are worth. They should be thankful there is a Wal-Mart to hire them."
Bingo! :)
86 - RJ
"Wal-Mart should be thankful so many people are willing to work for so much less than they are truly worth."
If they were "worth" more, why don;t they find a better job?
"Sadly, Wal-Mart shows little evidence of being thankful for anything."
They sign the paychecks, don't they?
87 - RJ
"since they paid off(read:bribed)the Prosecutors in a criminal case"
Are you suggesting that the Prosecutors in this case pocketed the 11 million bucks themselves?
88 - RJ
"In reality, most wages at Wally world are closer to $8.00 to $9.00/hr."
Sounds reasonable.
So? Are you telling me that these employees are "worth" more than that?
Then why don't they find jobs elsewhere that will pay them more?
Oh, wait, they can't...
89 - RJ
"Consider 8 bucks an hour times 30 hours a week (which is generous -- it's often less hours than that for many workers) times 52 weeks a year...$12,480."
If they are only working 30 hours/week, perhaps they should consider a second job?
90 - RJ
"If you say so - let's see some facts and statistics to back this up. I'm eager to see a count of more than 50% of WalMart workers on welfare or medicaid."
Uh, if they are receiving Medicaid, welfare, food stamps, WIC, subsidized housing, etc. then that adds quite a bit to their "income" does it not?
And therefore, they have $ to spare, correct?
Yup.
91 - RJ
"Employees can purchase individual health insurance for $38 per month or $153 a month for a family."
Gawd! Maybe I should get a job at Wal-Mart! :)
I currently pay about $200.00 per month for health/dental/vision coverage. And I'm single, no kids. And I'm young and healthy!
92 - RJ
gonzo:
If your little fantasy was realistic in any way, why hasn't someone already done this?
93 - gonzo marx
damn fine Question..
my best guess is...Greed
ot used to be the Way business was run..it was called "Sustainable Growth" and can still be found in some privately help companies
it seems once you go Public..and the bottom line each quarter must continue to grow at an ever larger rate to answer the analysts at wall street...well then anything goes to increase that rating and drive the stock price up..
now..can anyone name me the one case of unrestricted..unregulated growth?
anything?..aww...c'mon..even the great white shark's grows finally slows down to a "sustainable" level..it doesn't go unchecked..
even a giant sequoia has some years better than others..the rings don't keep gettnig thicker each year..
still no guess?
how about....cancer
it's a Dream..i know, RJ...but crunch the business model itself...i have..with a friend that sepnt 9 years as the VP of Corporate sales at MicroWarehouse...he l;aughed at me...then ran the model as described..and said it would work
it just wouldn't make wall street happy
cuz when it comes to unrestrained growth...they like cancer..
nuff said?
Excelsior!
Excelsior!
94 - Martha
The Catholic Church hates Walmart because Walmart is probably a more powerful enterprise than the Church. The Catholic Church wants to be the most powerful enterprise in the world and sees Walmart as a competition. But they are both the same. Hipocrates, corrupt and evil