Why Do So Many Christians Support The Iraq War? - Comments Page 2

Article comments

Subscribe to comment RSS

• 26 - moon

  Oct 19, 2008 at 7:10 pm

  I see, Doug, you gringos don't do torture.
  
  Right.
  
  Pull the other one.
  
  I find it absolutely astonishing even on this gringo site that someone has the baldfaced nerve to mention torture and not own up to his own country practsing it even as I type this post!
  
  

• 27 - jamminsue

  Oct 19, 2008 at 8:38 pm

  Dave:
  You say: "How is it less Christian to want to free people ruled by dictators who can kill or torture them at whim and who have committed genocide and mass murder? It's a very strange form of Christianity which is willing to stand by and be silent and take no action while others are murdered and exploited. The question should be how can any Christian NOT support the Iraq war?"
  
  Response: This is not the first time I have said this. When countries have a despot, it is the responsibility of the people within to change their government; it does not work (as we are now painfully aware) when others try to do it for them. It is no different than reforming a drunk. Unhealthy behavioral issues can only be changed from within. The only time it is OK to go into a country mistreating it's citizens is when there's genocide. There was genocide going on in Iraq by Saddam long, long before we invaded, and surprise, no one cared. As no one cared when the genocide was occurring, that reason is negated. Once that issue is negated, then there is no moral reason to go in. Further, genocide was not GWB's excuse. As many national leaders told GWB, it was a no win situation based on bankrupt ideas.
  I believe the Christians that are supporting the war are those with blinkers that follow their chosen leader (in this case GWB and Chaney). It allows them to: on one side say life is sacred so abortion is murder but it’s okay to have guns without trigger guards, etc so kids getto find out the hard way howto handle a gun. It's okay to kill “those people,” whomever the “demonized du jour” happens to be. Keeping the fear focused in the desired place is one way to divert attention from the things that really count, which GWB did quite well, as our current financial situation attests.
  

• 28 - jamminsue

  Oct 19, 2008 at 8:53 pm

  Carmen: You say "As for the Iraq war and your claim that it was initiated on the basis of faulty intelligence, have you considered that the people who produced that intelligence were Clinton appointees and the entrenched bureaucrats who served under them."
  Two wrongs do not make a right. This is a red herring.

• 29 - Pablo

  Oct 19, 2008 at 9:02 pm

  Doug RE post 25
  
  "Why? Google Saddam torture videos on the internet and see what real evil is. Holding down people and cutting out their tongues, throwing people off buildings, execution by dynamite, beheadings, amputations, having friends and family break each others limbs, iron maidens, electroshock torture, rapes, chemical warfare, etc. All this stuff was reasonably commonplace, documented, and sanctioned by government officials under Hussein."
  
  First of all lest you forget Saddam was one of our boys for decades. He obviously did not pay someone enough, and thus incurred the wrath of the ruling Oil-igarchy here in the good ole u s of a.
  
  The reasons it was of the greatest evil are as follows.
  
  1. First the killing, maiming, and destruction of human beings in a war that was never legally declared, thus UNLAWFUL.
  
  2. It has ruined what little prestige and respect that my nation had prior to its attack on Iraq.
  
  3. It has never been formally acknowledged that this war was fought for Oil, with the only right wing exception to this being Mrs. Palin's acknowledgment that it was about Oil. The bullshit about Jeffersonian Democracy being complete and utter bullshit from the get go.
  
  4. the evil of spending 3 trillion dollars killing people, whilst bankrupting the USA, and guaranteeing that we and our children and grandchildren will be paying for this monstrosity for decades.
  
  If you really want to fight evil Doug, assuming your an american too, you don't need to go overseas to do it. We have quite enough monsters of our own in power, in case you hadn't noticed.
  
  
  
  

• 30 - John

  Oct 19, 2008 at 9:26 pm

  “I can't imagine what it must be like to think that half the country or so supported a greater evil than the Hussein regime, that most of us are monsters on the inside”
  
  Actually, many in that half were supporting the claim that Iraq had WMD’s and was about to attack the US, which was a lie.
  
  The evil was lying to the American people.
  
  And unfortunately, many Christians are “christian” in name only.
  
  How does a Christian follow Jesus’ teaching?
  
  “Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
  
  Jesus replied. "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
  
  "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,”
  
  -- Matthew 19:16-18
  
  Taking inventory here, some “christians” don’t get a passing grade.
  
  

• 31 - DaveNalle

  Oct 19, 2008 at 11:07 pm

  To continue the unstated part of #29:
  
  #5: It was done by the US and anything the US does is inherently evil.
  
  Dave

• 32 - John

  Oct 19, 2008 at 11:18 pm

  "#5: It was done by the US and anything the US does is inherently evil'
  
  Only in Dave's fevered mind.
  
  

• 33 - Clavos

  Oct 19, 2008 at 11:29 pm

  You don't think the USA is inherently evil, John?
  
  At least 80% of the rest of the world does. They can't all be wrong.
  
  We're imperialists, warmongers, despoilers of the environment, racists, and bullies to countries like Venezuela and Iran.
  
  Evil doesn't begin to describe us.

• 34 - John

  Oct 19, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  "You don't think the USA is inherently evil, John?"
  
  You got it wrong.
  
  Not the USA, just the rotten politicians who lie to the American people.
  
  

• 35 - Cannonshop

  Oct 20, 2008 at 2:53 am

  #30 It ain't just Christians, John, it's most PEOPLE don't get a passing grade. Particularly on the False witness part, but also on the stealing, and in rare cases, the Adultery. Only really SICK folk do the Murder bit, but it's rather interesting how many will tend to stand by while it's done in front of them, then tell the cops they didn't see anything for fear of having to interrupt their pathetic existence to testify in court.
  
  But False witness? that one's POPULAR. Everything from your neighbourhood gossip on up the chain through the media into the halls of power-giving false testimonial, lying about what you did or what you saw, these are things people do-and the motive? most often, I believe, (honestly) is the desire to be "liked".
  
  People will say or do things to be 'liked' that bend the mind, John, including identifying themselves as Christians, or Religious when really they're just self-righteous or selfish.
  
  The really GOOD ones get to go to Washington D.C. and draw a paycheque for lying, stealing, and bearing false witness.

• 36 - marlowe

  Oct 20, 2008 at 10:43 am

  Hey, if they're not Christian we need not worry about incurring the wrath of God do we? Because according to the fundamentalists God ONLY loves Christians anyway, right? Not to mention they're all of Brown skin over there. So they lose out twice.
  
  The level of ignorance Christians have of their own religion, not to mention their stunted spirituality is stunning beyond all measure...
  
  Marlowe

• 37 - Baronius

  Oct 20, 2008 at 2:52 pm

  Kyle, I won't try to speak for all Christians, but I always felt that the first Gulf War was justified, and the second was simply a continuation of the first. Also, you should probably check your figures. The death toll under Saddam was much higher, and the death toll during the current war is much lower.
  
  Marlowe and Kyle, where do you guys hang out? I've never heard a sermon in support of the war, and I've never met a Christian who thought that God loved him more than a non-Christian. You guys must lead interesting lives.

• 38 - Kyle

  Oct 20, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  Yes, the death toll under Saddam is a lot higher than I said in the article, but I just found the correct figure yesterday. I should have taken the time to do the research before posting it. However, the American invasion has resulted in about twice as many deaths as Saddam, and in a shorter amount of time to boot.
  
  I've never actually heard a sermon in favor of the war, but I'm sure there have been many. However, I've heard pastors encourage their congregations to support the war, mine included.

• 39 - moon

  Oct 20, 2008 at 4:38 pm

  And more to the point:
  
  1. Christians, schmistians--just another synonym for gringos.
  
  2. There is not a single person anywhere in the Gulf region that doesn't believe that Iraquis were MUCH better off under Saddam Hussein. Gringos have the gall to act as if they did folks a favor offing more than a million of them just to fill the pockets of Dick Cheney and his compinches.

• 40 - Tony

  Oct 20, 2008 at 4:49 pm

  Honestly, this whole Christian argument that it was our job to take out the big bad evil Saddam is just a reflection of the ignorance of the American People towards the actions of the country which they populate.
  
  The United States attempted to populate the entire expanse of South America with evil dictators that murdered their people but were allies to the U.S.
  
  Ronald Regean himself supported Saddam in the Iraq Iran war (he of the party that the U.S. installed in Iraq), arming him to the teeth with the theory that his brand of socialism was better than Iran's fundimentalism. If he wouldn't have invaded Kuwait and moved a little two close to our brothers in arms, the Saudis, we would still be friends with him.
  
  People, remember Suharto, the Shah, Pinochet, Noriega, just to same a select few? We constantly support dictators. If you think we went into Iraq just to free an oppressed people from a bad man you're completely ignorant to reality.

• 41 - Baronius

  Oct 20, 2008 at 4:54 pm

  So, you've never heard a defense of the war from the pulpit? You gave the opposite impression in your article. Maybe you didn't mean to, but you did. You give people like Christopher and Jordan the wrong impression of American Christians.
  
  Saddam's death toll is much higher than your article or your comment. If you consider the wars he got into against Iran and Kuwait, he's easily pushing a million dead. He tortured thousands as part of his national policy. (By contrast, Americans have tortured maybe six Iraqis, in violation of national policy.)
  
  On the other hand, the death toll in the Iraq War is closer to 100,000. See the IraqBodyCount site, for example. And remember, this is the tally caused by American, British, Italian, Polish, and Tongan troops, as well as the Iraqi troops, and the tally of al-Qaeda, Baathist, Iranian, and warlords' victims.

• 42 - troll

  Oct 20, 2008 at 5:17 pm

  (imo now that things have 'quieted down' in Iraq we need Roberts' third cluster study to get a better picture of casualties
  
  do the actual numbers matter - ?
  
  fuck yeah
  
  we ought to get a clear picture of what we wrought)

• 43 - moon

  Oct 20, 2008 at 5:31 pm

  This is the single most cynically deluded statement I have yet to read on this cynical, deluded website:
  
  "By contrast, Americans have tortured maybe six Iraqis, in violation of national policy."
  
  SIX!!!!!!!????????
  
  Oh well, I guess white folks only committed genocide against 11 of my Native American ancestors, too!
  
  Torture, as the recently revealed White House memos revealed, IS national policy.
  

• 44 - Baronius

  Oct 20, 2008 at 6:11 pm

  The Most Cynically Deluded Statement? Me?
  
  Oh, there are so many people I'd like to thank... My parents, for always believing in me... my high school drama teacher, Mr. McOwen... But above all, Dick Cheney, for teaching me that you don't have to be outrageous to set some people off. You just have to speak the truth: the rage comes inside the listener. Mr. Vice President, this one is for you!

• 45 - moon

  Oct 20, 2008 at 6:18 pm

  We will not, snif snif, be hearing anymore from Baronius, as he was just blasted into purgatory by the 12 gauge his hunting partner so tenderly placed next to his temple.
  
  Apparently, Mr. Vice President, it WAS for Baronius--not you.
  
  Sigh.
  
  RIP.

• 46 - Elijah

  Oct 29, 2008 at 2:56 pm

  FOR A LONG TIME I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY AMERICAN "CHRISTIANS SUPPORTED WARS?!?!?! BUT KNOW I SEE IT A BIT MORE CLEARLY I'M RUSSIAN-AMERICAN AND I NEVER SUPPORTED WAR BECAUSE THE BIBLE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CLEARLY TELLS US NOT TO FIGHT!! THATS WHAT MANY Christian Russians belive......I belive them too!!!
  
  God Bless!!!!!!

• 47 - Curtis

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:18 am

  There are so many things wrong with this article...
  
  I'll try to briefly hit the highest points. The basis of this article derailed in the frist 15 seconds. Christianity does not support the war. Christianity is for the prolongation of life. Christians are for the freedom of religion. Those are 2 different entities. One is always left to interpretation to the other.
  
  Pro-freedom governments (not just Bush - ever hear of Great Britian, Italy and the dozens of other countries with militaries that were there?) enacted a war on terrorism not just for WMD's and not just to get Saddam - a known genicidal terrorist.
  
  This article was certainly written by one with his hean in a microsope who has learned a lot from entertainment based media outlets who are paid to say things that keep peoples attention as opposed to the whole truth.

• 48 - pablo

  Nov 30, 2008 at 4:07 am

  Curtis,
  
  For the vast majority of Christian history not only has Christianity supported countless wars, but torture, burning at the stake, and countless other forms of human abuse and crime. If I were a Christian which thank GOD I am not, I would spend the rest of my life in penitence for the sins of my faith, instead of trying to force down my faith on the rest of the un-believers, of which thank GOD I am one.

• 49 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 4:49 am

  Curtis-FACT-more men have died in the name of Jesus Christ-and religious genocide than from any other source, you only have to look back at the Crusades to see that.
  
  The battle cry of "Only those who believe as me shall reap the glory of heaven" "Only those who are born again in Jesus' holy name can go to heaven" has caused more conflict, more hatred, more prejudice that any other down through history.
  
  For a religion that professes love and "Judge not lest you be judged yourself" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", it sure has inspired the most grievous excuses to hate someone.
  
  You are a fool to follow its teachings, and then reinterpret them to suit your own ends, whether they conflict or not.

• 50 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 11:48 am

  Curtis-FACT-more men have died in the name of Jesus Christ-and religious genocide than from any other source, you only have to look back at the Crusades to see that.
  
  Neither Stalin, Hitler nor Pol Pot (to name just the notable twentieth century mass murderers) killed for religious reasons. Each, by himself, killed more than the Crusades and Inquisition put together.
  
  Stalin: 5 to 7 Million.
  
  Hitler: 6 Million (Holocaust), and up to 40 Million across Europe as a result of WW II.
  
  Pol Pot: 2 Million.
  
  None of the mass murders above were undertaken in the name of religion. In fact, only Hitler was not an atheist in this group.
  
  For the record: I am not a Christian, nor do I belong to any other religious group or church.

• 51 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 11:58 am

  Forgot this link, which says, in part:
  
  Crusades (1095-1291)
  
  * Estimated totals:
  o Wertham: 1,000,000
  o Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html]
  o Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000

• 52 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:00 pm

  Clavos; Hitler didn't kill 6 MILLION jews because of their non-christian religion??????? What the fuck have you been smoking?!?

• 53 - Doug Hunter

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:05 pm

  Don't forget to throw Mao in there, can't forget the Chinese and another score for an atheist.
  
  
  I also get sick of the that old demonstrably false claim about christianity (although not being one myself). It's just simply not true.

• 54 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:07 pm

  Read your history, Jet.
  
  He killed them because, in his view, they were an inferior race. Religion had nothing to do with it.

• 55 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  HE KILLED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS YOU IDIOT. Why do you think they were branded with a yellow star of David on their clothes?
  
  Judism is not a race-it's a religion.
  
  Good God you can not be that ignorant!

• 56 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:29 pm

  There are black jews, there are white jews, there are asian jews, there are new jews, there are old jews, there are gay jews and according to Ruvy there are even dumb jews.
  
  Jewish is not a race-it's a religion. When Hitler's brown shirts spent all of crystal naght painting JUDE on shop windows, that wasn't a racial slur it was a religious slur.
  
  At the time of the holocaust if you stood a jew up with five germans you couldn't tell which one was jewish unless he told you. There was no obvious or unobvious difference that would put them into the catagory of a separate race.
  
  Jesus Hosanna Christ-no one is that misinformed!!! except maybe you?

• 57 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:47 pm

  Jet,
  
  I'll ignore your obvious lack of courtesy. I know you're under a lot of stress because of your various ailments, and will make allowance for that.
  
  The point is not whether I know whether Jewish is a race or a religion; the point is what Hitler thought he was doing. Read his own words, Jet, it was all about race:
  
  "If I can send the flower of the German nation into the hell of war without the smallest pity for the spilling of precious German blood, then surely I have the right to remove millions of an inferior race that breeds like vermin ..."
  
  Adolf Hitler

• 58 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:49 pm

  You're right Clavos, It's just a coincodence that they were all Jews he killed... what are the odds?

• 59 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:51 pm

  Non sequitur, jet.

• 60 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 12:51 pm

  As for your "Courtesy" and your "How DARE you speak me in such a tone" (:^P~~~~~~~~~`

• 61 - Ruvy

  Nov 30, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  Jet, Wake up!!
  
  Get out of that medicine induced grouchiness of yours and pay attention.
  
  The Austrian Germans who came up with the concept of "Aryan Race" as the chosen "clean" race of mankind, also came up with the concept of the "gegenrasse", the Jews who were the vermin of the earth who had to be exterminated. These were also the assholes who followed Madame Blavatsky and the Thule Society. (go ahead and blow a cork or two, Heloïse)
  
  The definitions used and the terms used in "Mein Kampf" were Hitler's, an Austrian German heavily into this racial shit. He didn't give a damn what the Columbus Ohio Chamber of Commerce thought about these things. He defined them in a way that made sense to the "völkisch" Germans in Central Europe.
  
  Verstannen?!
  
  So stop trying to super-impose your definitions of race and nationality onto the ideology and religious ideas of the Austro-German racists who developed Naziism.

• 62 - Clavos

  Nov 30, 2008 at 1:08 pm

  If you're interested in learning more about it, Jet, here's an excellent article from the Beeb about Nazi racism. It says, in part:

  'Gypsies' were admittedly not persecuted with same intensity or in the same systematic fashion as were the Jews, but they were also shot and deported in huge numbers. Almost 20,000 died in Auschwitz alone. Millions of Eastern Europeans, who were seen by the Nazis as Slavic 'sub-humans', also died as a consequence of brutal occupation of their home countries. Many were deported to Germany as 'foreign labourers', or were ruthlessly forced from their homelands in the second half of the war as a consequence of the 'scorched earth' tactics of the German army.
  
  The genocide and mass murder perpetrated by the 'Third Reich' and its allies - maintained until the last days of the war - should always be seen in the context of the Nazis' racist policies.

  Hitler didn't just kill Jews; he also tried to exterminate Gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who did not fit into his idea of the perfect race.

• 63 - Jet

  Nov 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm

  Oh great, now I have to figure out who's making less sense; Clavos or Ruvy... oy vay