Seventeen year old unarmed child killed in Florida and no one is in jail.
I have been following the story datelined Sanford, Florida of the killing of the 17 year old teenager, Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood security block watcher, George Zimmerman. Here's what we know at this point. Martin was walking through his father's Sanford neighborhood after buying a bag of Skittles and some iced tea at a store. Zimmerman, in his SUV, allegedly observed Martin walking in the neighborhood, and reported to a police dispatcher that Martin was acting suspicious, looking at homes and looked like he was on drugs (Suspicious Walking While Black; SWWB). Zimmerman then said, “These guys always get away". The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin and Zimmerman responded, "Yes." The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, let the police handle it.…
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— go to most recent comments176 - Zingzing
What was the question then?
177 - Jordan Richardson
From #164:
So here's my question: what "stupid shit" about America am I falling for?
178 - Zingzing
Maybe nothing. But maybe Americans are no different from everyone else, and maybe you've not met the right Americans.
You do see my point about different values, yeah?
179 - Jordan Richardson
No, I don't see your point. Frankly I think you're all over the map on this one.
I honestly don't think my point is all that earth-shattering, zing, and I think you're making too much of it OR missing it altogether. You mistakenly think I'm excluding myself from the Great Unwashed, but I've frequently revealed my limitations on these threads over the years and frequently admitted my ignorance on a HUGE swath of subjects. I don't have anything to hide; I can and do admit stupidity and ignorance on a number of topics.
My problem came when you started to invalidate my experiences, as though the people I've known for years have been pulling some sort of elaborate rib that I can't possibly see through. You'd have to think I was pretty stupid (irony?) to not be able to figure that out, huh?
Generally speaking, America is lower than the mark. The country has been steadily slipping in a number of fields when compared to the rest of the developed world (you guys rank Below Average in math and science, for example, you have a lower graduation rate than much of the developed world, you're lower on the "Happiness Index" than much of the developed world, you're lower than most of the developed world on most health-related lists, you have an alarming rate of wage disparity, etc.), yet doctrines like American Exceptionalism and the American Dream persist to tell the rest of us how great you are in comparison to us. This gets somewhat annoying when you're on the outside looking in and THAT, my friend, is a perspective you know nothing about. You don't know what it's like to sit above the United States, just minutes from the border, and hear constantly from family and friends about how great and special and unique America is, how it's an "idea" not a country, etc. There is a certain degree of ego that generally comes with that territory. You don't hear many Canadians talking like that.
When 9/11 happened, it became everybody's tragedy. Many of us in the developed world rushed to help and many were spit on for refusing to join the War in Iraq, as though it was morally wrong to not follow your country everywhere. Remember "Freedom Fries" and the countless jokes about France? Or how Canadians died in Afghanistan only to be spit on by FOX News commentators (representing roughly half your country) for being "pussies?" Or how commentators dragged our health care system through the mud to make a political point?
The United States has presented itself as the "best country in the world" for a long time now. Again: American Exceptionalism and other doctrines have been promoted far and wide. Just look at NAFTA, for instance. It's part of the message many of us receive, even though many (or maybe even most) Americans don't subscribe to the newsletter anymore.
Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't think I'm working from stereotypes and I don't assume ALL Americans are alike. But I do think there's a reputation there and I do think it exists for a reason. I think it's something you ought to consider when you read what Stan has to say about America, as he's likely looking at your country through a similar lens. And you, with all due respect, don't have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence.
180 - STM
Jordxan: "And you, with all due respect, don't have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence."
Yeah, that's about it. And it can be galling.
181 - zingzing
"you, with all due respect, don't have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence."
ahrm. really? i'll give you a minute to think about that one. (you just spent the last couple days telling me how my country looks from your perspective, and you're about the millionth person to have done so.) we're a cliche, but we're not all a cliche, but it doesn't matter because that's the cliche and that's how you perceive us. wonderful. thanks.
but. somehow i said "we're not as stupid as all that," and you both took it as "this land is perfect and you are fools to think otherwise." maybe you're used to that from the mouths of americans, but it's pretty clear that's what you hear even when it's not said.
sigh. if all that's going to go on here is you guys listing off america's shortcomings, i think we can just drop it. i realize it's making me look bad, but sometimes it just builds up inside me and the constant chorus of "stupid american" has got to be shouted at for a while. it just gets so fucking tiresome. must be easier on the other side of it.
182 - Jordan Richardson
zingzing, nobody has said you were all cliches. And nobody has said that all Americans are stupid. But there are facts that you seem to be ignoring, such as the pretty significant slippage in education, health and general well-being when compared to developing countries. Couple that with the sort of rabid patriotism that makes many Americans "exceptional" and you've got an interesting presentation, wouldn't you say?
When I tell you about my personal experiences, you run laps to try to invalidate them. "Oh, they must have been fucking with you," you insist. "Nobody can be that stupid."
How do you think that comes off?
And you're behaving as if I've left myself apart from the criticism. As I've gone to great lengths to explain, "I can and do admit stupidity and ignorance on a number of topics." It's all relative on that personal level.
What is galling, as Stan said, is the insistence of many Americans (Republicans, as you dismissively stated) to infer that the United States is more than just a set of borders; it's a dream, an "idea," and so forth. You acted like I was making it up (#155, #159) and ignored the rest.
Sigh, indeed.
183 - zingzing
"But there are facts that you seem to be ignoring, such as the pretty significant slippage in education, health and general well-being when compared to developing countries."
for the love of god. how many times do i have to point out that i'm not ignoring that? that's not at all germane to my point, which is about the more ridiculous things people are apt to believe about america. so please... it's getting rather frustrating to have you putting words in my mouth. as i said way, way back to stan, i'm fine with people criticizing america for what it is, i welcome it, and YOU KNOW i do it quite often. i'm not fine with them criticizing america with some obviously stupid statistic they found on the internet.
"How do you think that comes off?"
probably about the same as you dismissing my experience. if americans who don't know where canada is are so rampant and dominant, as stan says (to the tune of 70%)... i wonder why i don't meet them. neither you or stan seem to think that my input is of any value. yet my sample base is so much larger. why is my experience worth nothing compared with yours?
"And you're behaving as if I've left myself apart from the criticism."
well, you only went to "great lengths" after i accused you of it, then i never said anything about it again. so can we drop that one? that said, i don't believe you are stupid, and i doubt you do either. you may have a few blind spots you'll acknowledge, but that's not really the kind of stupidity we're talking about here, is it?
"You acted like I was making it up (#155, #159) and ignored the rest."
no i didn't. i don't know why you'd think that, but you've been misunderestistanding me a lot on this thread. i was just saying that a sizable portion of the american population realizes how strange those ideas are. it's like you don't see how many people within the united states ridicule those ideas. why does that portion of america not make it beyond the borders, or why does it not enter the "narrative," i wonder...
i'll tell you why: people like to caricaturize the united states. simplicity at the expense of accuracy. and they're cool with that. usually, a few neighboring countries have funny little tiffs between themselves wherein they caricaturize each other. but the us is open game, and some people actually take it as gospel. i'm not saying you do, but there are those that do, and you really just want to say they have wmds and then bomb the fuck out of them. whoops.
184 - STM
Fot God's sake, zing, get over it.
We're not saying the US isn't a good place, and as I've said before, my experience of Americans in regard to hospitality and kindness and enthusiasm for life is second to none.
But it's well known that a very large percentage of Americans, even those who might be intellectuals or academically clever, have been fed on the myth of american exceptionalism and believe it lock, stock and barrel.
Then there are those who don't have a clue as to how arrogant they seem to others, especially when that arrogance is fed by a lack of knowledge about the rest of the world.
Beuing a one-eyed patriot is fine; I'm one.
But beyond the rose-coloured glasses, I can also see there are the failings of my own country and its people in terms of its attitudes to everyone else (yes, almost to a man, we think we're the best, the most democratic, the most tolerant, and have the best country in the world).
This place is better than most first-world countries but like EVEYWHERE, it has its failings.
I thought you were arrogant in my first contact with you on these threads when you dismissively said all Aussie music was sh.t.
You are displaying the same kind of one-eyed arrogance on here. If YOU say there are tghings wrong with the US, that's OK,
But if any of us non-Americans do, that's a different story, right, because we couldn't possibly know.
What a load of f..king codswallop that is and, dare I say it, it's quite a typical American attitude. Why should the experiences of myself and Jordan be dismissed as patently wrong just because you don't like that view or agree with it.
You don't need us to tell you, though; it's well documented. Such venerable instutions as Time magazine have done their own surveys and come up with the same conclusion in regards to the lack of general knowledge of the average American.
In your arguments with us, you prove at least some of our points.
Just get over it mate.
185 - Jordan Richardson
which is about the more ridiculous things people are apt to believe about america.
Like what?
I've asked you this a number of times, but you dance around it even though it's "germane to your point."
So I'll ask again (and hopefully this time you don't say "Maybe nothing.")
What "stupid shit" about America am I falling for?
i'm not fine with them criticizing america with some obviously stupid statistic they found on the internet.
What "obviously stupid statistic?"
probably about the same as you dismissing my experience.
Please point out where I've done this.
why is my experience worth nothing compared with yours?
Who said it was worth nothing? We've obviously had different experiences and met different people. As EB said, "it's possible both your versions of America are correct."
you only went to "great lengths" after i accused you of it
Bullshit. I quoted myself from a previous post after you accused me of it.
that's not really the kind of stupidity we're talking about here, is it?
No, it's EXACTLY the kind of stupidity we're talking about.
i was just saying that a sizable portion of the american population realizes how strange those ideas are.
And you think I disagree?
it's like you don't see how many people within the united states ridicule those ideas.
What on earth gives you that impression?
i'm not saying you do
No, that's pretty much all you've been saying. When I made my point and told you about some of my experiences, you plainly stated that they involved people who were "just fucking with me." You asserted that I was basing my opinion, whatever it is, on "tourists" and continue to suggest that Stan and I simply can't know what we're talking about. We couldn't possibly because your experiences are so "broad" as to render ours null and void.
And when I bring up facts, statistics or doctrines like American Exceptionalism, you don't address those points and simply dismiss the facts as "my perspective." You've minimized my experiences with Americans, despite the fact that I'm married to one and have family throughout the States and have more American friends than Canadian friends, and you think I'm clinging to stereotypes - all while refusing to tell me what stereotypes I'm clinging to.
And to top it off, you think I'm belittling your perspective!
186 - zingzing
sigh. you really aren't getting what i'm saying. i'm sick of shit like stan's 70% thing. that's all. i know he backed off of it. but that kind of thing is not unusual.
please answer this: do you understand my gripe?
i know america has its faults. plenty of them. we've got one of the larger and more diverse populations in the world. of course we're going to have issues.
we're all talking over each other at this point. jordan, i went out of my way to say you probably weren't clinging to stereotypes. but that passed right over. if you quoted yourself from an earlier post on this thread, i didn't see it. sorry.
"And you think I disagree?"
given what you said, yes... i'm glad you recognize that that's not the totality of it. i wish people wouldn't present it as if it was. even if all they say is that's the image we project, i'd have to say they need to look closer.
"And to top it off, you think I'm belittling your perspective!"
sorry, but i do. you're refusing to understand my basic issue, and then you're blowing what i say out of proportion as well.
187 - zingzing
"I thought you were arrogant in my first contact with you on these threads when you dismissively said all Aussie music was sh.t."
it's called a joke, stan. i like plenty of australian music. what i said was "australians have no business making music." what i used to say was "canadians have no business making music." and then canadians went and made some great music. and so i just picked another country. it's 95% just a joke. plus, i was really into new zealand music a couple years ago. so that may have been part of it. you can pull your panties out of your ass about all that now.
"But it's well known that a very large percentage of Americans, even those who might be intellectuals or academically clever, have been fed on the myth of american exceptionalism and believe it lock, stock and barrel."
i really don't think most americans think about it as much as you seem to.
"But if any of us non-Americans do, that's a different story, right, because we couldn't possibly know."
only when you say silly things. keep it real, stan.
"In your arguments with us, you prove at least some of our points."
i wasn't arguing about the same things you were arguing about. i only dispute the more outlandish elements of what you say. but that doesn't seem to matter.
i swear, if we were all sitting down at a table with some beers, you both probably would have gone "oh, yeah, fair enough" several thousand words ago. i'm not at all arguing what you seem to think i am.
188 - STM
Zing writes: "i really don't think most americans think about it as much as you seem to:".
No, that's right, they just believe the myth of american excepgionalism without question.
If they actually took the time to think about it and do their homework, they might not velieve it.
Except the deluded ones ... and there's a few of them, right zing??
189 - Jordan Richardson
do you understand my gripe?
Yes, you're arguing against something I didn't say. And in the process, you've invalidated my own experiences, claimed people were "fucking with me," ignored reams of data, etc.
i went out of my way to say you probably weren't clinging to stereotypes.
You did a poor job of it if that's what you think you did. Hell, in #183 you said that I didn't "see how people within the united states ridicule these ideas." And in #181, you asserted again how I perceive you (Americans) as a cliché.
you're refusing to understand my basic issue
HOW?
190 - Jordan Richardson
i'm not at all arguing what you seem to think i am.
zing, I think you really ought to look back at what you've been saying throughout this conversation and then look back at what I've said. You say that you've only disputed the more "outlandish" elements of what we've said, but you've essentially disputed our experiences with your country by intoning time and time again that your experiences are "more broad."
And honestly, if we're not arguing about the same things, is it any bloody wonder I don't understand your "gripe?"
191 - STM
Zing: "you can pull your panties out of your ass about all that now".
Another assumption about someone else's point of view.
They were never in my arse; that's because I didn't give a f.ck.
You are as entitled to your point of view as I am.
I just thought you were arrogant.
Not much has changed since then.
192 - STM
However, that said, I don't want to argue with you any more zing; perhaps we should all agree to disagree
193 - Dr Dreadful
As the only regular here who is a non-American currently living in America, should I put in my two cents' worth? And should that be in US, Canadian or Aussie currency?
Frankly I don't think I can contribute anything that hasn't already been said many times over, but I'm game.
194 - zingzing
jordan: "Yes, you're arguing against something I didn't say."
exactly. i'm arguing against what stan said.
"HOW?"
because this has gone far beyond what i originally intended and i find myself having to defend myself against shit i never said.
"And honestly, if we're not arguing about the same things, is it any bloody wonder I don't understand your "gripe?""
i guess not. i tried to point out what it was but it keeps flying right by you for some reason. i dunno.
195 - zingzing
"Except the deluded ones ... and there's a few of them, right zing??"
there's the deluded ones, the non-deluded ones and all the others who don't care either way.
"Another assumption about someone else's point of view."
really? after you decided to base your entire image of me off an assumption? (i may have done more to prove your assumption since that point.)
"However, that said, I don't want to argue with you any more zing; perhaps we should all agree to disagree"
agreed.
196 - zingzing
jordan: "You did a poor job of it if that's what you think you did."
the site's been a little wonky lately. i've had to rewrite many of these comments because they got lost, and these comments are long... it's possible that a version of a comment where i did so didn't make it through. yeah, i can't find it. i meant to say it! does that count?
anyway, it was something about how many people are apt to believe cliches, especially about america. then i was supposed to say i don't think you're one of those people, but you must admit there are some. maybe it's because they see our pop culture and think that's an accurate reflection, even though it's often lowest common denominator stuff. i guess it is a reflection, but it's the least flattering.
197 - zingzing
doc: "Frankly I don't think I can contribute anything that hasn't already been said many times over, but I'm game."
as long as you're not here to join the big ferner gangbang. bunch of meanies.
198 - zingzing
i mean, it's a free country. NOT THAT I THINK WE'RE SPECIAL IN THAT REGARD! just thought i needed to point that out before someone starts riding my ass about it.
199 - STM
Zing: "after you decided to base your entire image of me off an assumption".
Well, no. Being arrogant was only one part of the image I have of you. Did I forget combative, argumentative, one-eyed ...
Then there are a couple of things I don't like :)
200 - Jordan Richardson
I don't think Stan has said what you think he's been saying, though.
My comments started by saying that my wife, a card-carrying American, corroborates Stan's vision of the country. I followed up with the "best in the free world" line (and "leader of the free world," etc.), which I subsequently backed up using a number of examples. Then I said that I indeed have met Americans who didn't know where Canada was, to which you replied that "they were most likely fucking with you, jordan...if what you say is true. You followed that up implying that I was gaining my knowledge about your country from stereotypes.
That's about where the trouble started, in my opinion. From there, I insisted that I was indeed speaking from a position of experience and stated that there were indeed many Canadians that didn't know the first thing about America. In other words, it goes both ways. I also added that half my family is American and went on to explain that I believed their circle of knowledge to be different, not necessarily inferior. Then I said that many Americans and many Canadians simply don't care about what happens beyond their respective borders.
After that, you said that I missed the point. And you said "i'm just saying the stereotypes that you are both claiming as true are silly. that's all."
The trouble there is that neither one of us were claiming stereotypes; we were sharing firsthand experiences that you subsequently invalidated because you just couldn't believe people could be that stupid.
Further to that, you said "you say we're completely self-centered and don't admit anyone else exists." Again, that wasn't what I said. Hell, it wasn't even what Stan said.
After that, I asked you to clarify what "stupid shit" about America I was falling for. You said "Maybe nothing," adding that I may not have met the "right Americans." I reiterated myself again in #179, adding even more of my perspective and experiences. You replied "ahrm. really?" and rambled on about clichés. Again. Arhm. Really. You added "that's how you perceive us," as though my opinion of America has come from clichés and stereotypes. Further to that, in #183 you went on about "simplicity for the sake of accuracy." I asked you to clarify and asked you a number of questions. You dodged and said that you weren't saying what I thought you were saying, adding that you "went out of your way" to insist that I wasn't clinging to stereotypes. Given the above, I'm sure you can understand my confusion.
Now maybe the site has been a little wonky lately, I don't know. If you "meant to say it," okay. But you've also got to understand that you've said the opposite many, many times throughout this conversation. I'm not the only one who seems to be missing your point, either, so there may be something to that. If it's a big misunderstanding and we're really talking at cross-purposes here, that's cool.
201 - STM
Yeah, come on Doc, chime in.
I know you have to live there, but still ... like the good Aussie I am, I'd always back a Pom who's in a tight corner.
202 - STM
Assuming, of course, you'd back up your mates in countries where police forces still have a crown on their cap badges.
203 - STM
And a damn good thing they do too!
204 - STM
That crown reminds people they have unequivocal rights under the law ...
205 - STM
I'm not being naughty now am I??
206 - zingzing
jordan: "If it's a big misunderstanding and we're really talking at cross-purposes here, that's cool."
i think it mostly is. i also think you've had different interactions with americans than i have. and that you MAY be being a little quick to judge. i don't know. maybe i'm a little too lenient.
and i have several canadian friends (from vancouver no less) and i make merciless fun of them for being canadians. and they make fun of me for being american. but it's all in good fun. no one really believes that stuff. right? putting too much stock in such things is a negative in every way.
207 - Dr Dreadful
This all started from Stan's assertion that Dan's breed of racism is a view widely held in the US, and from there the handbags, purses, clutches and other feminine haulage devices came out and started swinging.
Racism is, of course, by no means unique to the United States (Australian racism has a pretty shameful history of its own), but the American version is unique because of the slavery followed by legally enshrined apartheid that it originated in. (South Africa also had institutional apartheid, but there the beneficiaries were the minority.)
The upshot is that with the best will in the world, the variously-hued peoples of the Untied States have learned, over a period of centuries, how not to be able to live with each other.
The thing to realize is that very few of them actually think this is great, as Dan does. They're just not all that good at handling the reality that Americans with different-coloured skins exist.
It's also no accident that in both the US and Australia, the ethnic group that got the most screwed over is still the most economically disadvantaged, discriminated against and mistrusted by whites.
208 - zingzing
my mother and father are both baby boomers, and they remember a time when racism was not only acceptable, it was almost pushed on people. my grandparents, or at least one set, held some racist opinions of their own, although they'd mellowed considerably by the time i remember them.
i don't think america's quite as bad as it once was. our legal system (black crack is worse than white coke, black crime is more punishable than white crime,) and some of our politics (hello, arizona,) would suggest the lesson hasn't been learned, but i think a vast majority of americans would agree that a more inclusive society is for the better.
some americans think an egalitarian society has actually been achieved, and we don't need to be inspecting our legal system for bias, and affirmative action should be a thing of the past. that's going too far and not recognizing the reality of the situation, and it's telling that 99% of such people are white, but i think america is on a steady march towards that current-day fantasy.
there are plenty of bumps in the road, but stan's idea that america is "as riven as it ever was" is ignoring the multiple strides we (and the rest of the world) have made. just in the last 50 years, nevermind the last 150 years, massive changes have occurred. i'm surprised that he wouldn't acknowledge that. it's a misreading of history and a misreading of the present.
there's a reason why martin's death was a massive media extravaganza. even if the facts come out different, it looks like some racist fuck targeted a black kid, and most americans won't stand for that. used to be towns celebrated lynchings and feted the hangman. now the gunman is put into hiding and probably needs some police protection. neither is the greatest endorsement of racial harmony in america, but at least most americans are on the right side of the argument.
209 - roger nowosielski
As a completely neutral person in this here debate, ha ha, I think El Bicho complaint had the greatest bite, accusing zing of doing for the Americans what Dan has been trying to do on behalf of the white people.
Anyways, out of the triple bypass surgery, guys, not to mention carotid endarterectomy, and let me tell you, it ain't no fucking picnics. It's a humbling experience in light which such lofty subjects as politics or this here rather silly dispute about American Exceptionalism receive their proper treatment which should only be: Who gives a fuck?
210 - zingzing
roger, you're a dick, but glad the surgery went alright. i do admit that sticking up for americans in any way isn't particularly kosher these days, but i wasn't trying to create any supposed utopia where americans are better than anyone else. just saying they're not automatically worse. they're just people and they don't deserve stereotyping. if you (or el b) believe that that's the same thing as what dan's doing... i dunno what to think, mr. apple pie.
211 - roger nowosielski
Well, my man, it's gonna be a while before I get overexcited about small shit like that. It's all about us humans, small scale, one on one, fuck all the glamorized rest.
I'd better disengage for now instead of risking stealing an image of myself on the computer screen like some ghost in the mirror.
Later.
212 - Jordan Richardson
zing, look.
Of course, I've had different interactions. I've interacted with Americans my entire life and I think you may be undercutting the amount of time I've spent there and the broadness of my own experiences in the US. I have spent quite a bit of time in so-called "red states," for one thing, and their opinions tend to be pretty far away from mine on most issues. But most of my friends have similar views and may be considered "leftists," I guess, so that's coloured the other end of the spectrum. It's a country I've been visiting since birth, quite regularly, so that's a pretty decent haul of folks from various ends of the spectrum over my nearly 33 years. Down to an individual, ignorance aside, I've found most Americans to be very pleasant, compelling, interesting, kind people. And they're much better drivers in comparison to people where I'm from.
I haven't really been trying to make fun of Americans and I certainly haven't intended to suggest that Canadians are superior. Many people do have a broad, clichéd understanding of the United States, this is true, and stereotypes die hard no matter where you're from. But I don't think Stan and I have been working from mere stereotypes, and something tells me that's where the hang-ups keep coming from. There's a difference between the opinion that Americans generally don't know much about the outside world and facts about American education in comparison to other developed nations and so on.
As you said before, "Something makes me think (call it experience,) that we're not the stupid, fat, racist, violent, arrogant pigs of stereotype." Other experiences, however, do suggest that there are those who live up to the stereotypes and then some. As we've both said, it depends on who you meet and when you meet them.
I do think that you have a slightly romantic vision of the United States. I think there are more racists and more clods than you think lurking within your borders, just like there are more racists and clods than I think lurking within mine. We tend to do that as human beings and that's okay. The trick is in realizing our rose-coloured glasses and getting on with it, I think.
Anyway, that's enough of that. Back to regularly-scheduled whatever-it-is-you-do-here.
213 - Jordan Richardson
zing, for the record I never thought you were saying that Americans are above reproach. And I maintain that I don't think anyone on these threads was stereotyping.
Roger, glad everything went well. I think you'll be back to getting overexcited about small shit in no time, though.
214 - STM
Doc: "(In) Australia, the ethnic group that got the most screwed over is still the most economically disadvantaged, discriminated against and mistrusted by whites".
Yes, that is still sadly the case ... except, quite bizarrely, in Queensland - which after federation was one of the most racist of states - because, it seems, many "white" have some indigenous background.
I don't know why it's like that; It's kind of unspoken ... people don't talk about it and make a big deal of it, they just get on with it. I suspect sport has a lot to do with it - especially rugby league, in which many of the tough and gifted players have indigenous background and have been genuine role models.
Of course, there are racists there too. Down south it's a bit different. I think the approach is kind of wrong.
It always amuses me that left-leaning and liberal-minded intellectuals and agitators in Sydney and Melbourne have made indigenous rights a cause celebre. I wonder how many of them have actually met an aborigine (Doc, you know my situation, so I feel I can say this).
I've seen them do things like lurch away pretty quickly and look down their noses when a homeless aboriginal man has come up to ask for money. But the next day they'll be fussing over the next great indigenous playwright. There's a reall disconnect there between reality and what they'd like to think is happening.
Things get done very quietly, like aboriginal kids - even those who are no good at sport - being given full scholarships to elite boarding schools.
One is a fried of our family; he was given a scholarship for his last two years of high school at a very well known boarding school and graduated with honours. He went on to study law at Sydney University and is now working for a multinational company. That kind of stuff happens all the time ... although possibly not enough given the kind of money floating about those institutions.
And, our government did issue an official apology on behalf of the nation, in parliament, a couple of years ago for the horrid treatment by non-indigenous Australians of indigenous Australians over the past 200 years or so.
It was part of the platform on which the new government was elected, and they won with a huge majority, so no one could rightly say that it wasn't representative of the average Aussie's thinking on this issue.
The apology changed a lot of things, especially for indigenous Aussies. Funny how that one little word - "sorry" - can have such a profound effect.
But I hope we don't forget how we got to that point, nor why the spirit of it should continue and grow in strength.
215 - STM
BTW the way, Doc ... didn't much sound like you were backing me up
216 - STM
Sterling work by Jordan, but ... Good on you champ. I knew you'd have had the same experiences as me. The thing I find galling about it all is that the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, the UK, are all pretty similar places in terms of standard of living, higher education, rights, legal system, provision of decent health care, rule of law, system of governance (my experience on that: Americans sometimes find it hard to get their heads around the notion that weren't the first or the only to come up with the ideas contained in the Bill of Rights and apply them to ordinary people), libberal democracy, etc.
So we know all that stuff, almost to a man and woman, but how come many Americans don't ... and still ask stupid questions and say dumb shit, like "Is your country free", or "Ain't you still under the Queen".
One thing zing will never appreciate: how much that kind of attitude can drive you nuts, and how hard it is to keep biting your tongue because you don't want to offend people who are otherwise generally extremely kind and hospitable by engaging in the same kind of circular argument into which we currently appear locked.
I find it really difficult sometimes, mainly because I like Americans. But that does seem to be their one fatal flaw - lack of knowledge and a wire loose between brain and mouth that leads to statements based on nothing more than something they think they know but really don't.
Of course, I'm generalising. I still say it's only 70 per cent of Americans who can't find Canada on a map. The other 30 per cent are pretty sweet once they find the US on the map and then have a stab, because they know it's north somewhere, and once they work out north there's no problem :)
ROGER: I haven't been on the threads that much; didn't know you were crook. Hope all's well, mate, and you're feeling OK. Sounds like hard going. Cheers
217 - roger nowosielski
Jordan, Stan
It's bound to knock religion or just plain healthy respect for life into any man, just to realize how f..g fragile we all are, how it all hangs in the balance, that we'd better be picking our battles wisely.
218 - Glenn Contrarian
Roger -
Glad to see you made it through alright! I look forward to seeing you back on the boards - it would be nice to have someone intelligent to argue with, since right now BC is essentially all-Warren, all the time.
219 - Glenn Contrarian
zing -
Have you gone off the deep end? Don't you know that instead of defending America, you're supposed to be the greatest threat against democracy (welcome back, Roger!), that you're supposed to be an America-hatin' lib'rul? What happened? Is Warren over there forcing you at gunpoint to defend America?
All kidding aside, you love America, and so do I. All Jordan and Stan are trying to do is give us an idea of what we look like from the outside looking in. America needs this kind of constructive criticism. Heck, I'd vote for Jordan for president, if I could!
And for Jordan - every think about changing your birth certificate? I mean, if you're white (and since your name isn't strange), Fox News won't even check up on you!
220 - Dr Dreadful
Stan, you know how much I love Australia and that I will back you up against anyone who slags the place off or claims that the US is better. It isn't. It's a fine place to live, but the land Down Under is just magical. I mean, think about it. You spend your entire lives walking around upside down and still don't fall off.
I do know your family history, mate, and respect your views on this. Australia has done a lot more - and more sensibly - to address the shadier aspects of its past, particularly in the last few years. I can't see any American government being in a hurry to go the Formal Apology route, either to the descendants of their former slaves or the people who used to own the place. The culture is just too stubbornly prideful. (Although it appears quite content to let native Americans get their revenge by opening casinos and taking all the white man's money instead!)
But it's the invisibleness that's the extraordinary thing about the relationship between whites and the indigenous population in Australia. I've travelled quite widely there, as you know, and the only place I saw Aborigines in public in large numbers was - yep, Queensland (which I believe is where your son is from, am I right?).
Even at Uluru, one of their holiest sites, you didn't see much of them. I was quite taken aback when we visited the cultural center, and realized that there wasn't a single Anangu person working there.
Mind you, I think it's because they prefer it that way. I suspect that there are quite a few indigenous people living way out in whoop-whoop who've never seen a white feller.
221 - Dr Dreadful
And for Jordan - every think about changing your birth certificate? I mean, if you're white (and since your name isn't strange), Fox News won't even check up on you!
No good, Glenn. As soon as they start mistaking him for Ben Harper's drummer, he's screwed.
222 - Dan
"The only thing "supported by mainstream science" is that African-Americans score lower on IQ tests in the United States than whites and Asians."---Dreadful (comment 168)
Sure Dreadful, and all those scientists who say otherwise, and continue to publish the research that says otherwise, are lying racists. They are mostly white so...
"You're an intelligent man. Let's say you're not an aeronautical engineer by profession and have never taken any aeronautics or engineering classes. Think you could pass an aeronautical engineering exam?"---Dreadful
Of Course not. An aeronautical engineering exam tests knowledge, not intelligence. I've tried to explain the difference. You possibly were taken in by one of those online tests. Real and ideal IQ tests are tests you can't prepare for.
"Violent crimes are, in fact, very rare. Although it's not surprising that black-on-white violence would appear to be endemic to you if those are the only crimes you pay any attention to."---Dreadful
Didn't say they weren't rare, just that when interracial violence happens between blacks and whites, it is around 85 to 90% black perps and white victims.
"Another claim which directly contradicts the FBI stats I linked to in comment 101, and confirms your tendency to ignore inconvenient evidence and make up your own narratives instead."---Dreadful
You linked to the victim page. Go to the offender page and you will see blacks listed at 18.5% some 5% more than their representation in the general population. Notice that "whites" are listed at 62.4% which is less than their representation in the general population. Notice also, that Hispanics aren't listed. That's because they are lumped in with the "white" catagory. So because of racist (against whites) catagorization the FBI will absurdly list a hate crime by a hispanic on a white as "white on white". Hispanics are, of course, a "victim" catagory, but not an "offender" catagory.
"You're quick to accuse the law of being biased, but seem quite happy to classify every black-on-white crime as a hate crime - and only black-on-white crimes."---Dreadful
What are you talking about? I mock the entire racist (against whites) notion of classifying crimes as "hate crimes".
It looks like the grand jury has been waived in the Trayvon Martin case. That probably means there isn't enough evidence for a Capital offense charge. They are also beefing up security, which probably means they expect the blood thirsty black protesters to riot.
The producer at NBC was fired for doctoring the tape to make it appear that Zimmerman wasn't being asked about Trayvons race. So that's good. If Zimmerman survives the lynching he'll be able to legally argue that objectivity was compromised.
223 - Jordan Richardson
As soon as they start mistaking him for Ben Harper's drummer, he's screwed.
Or a model.
My hips don't lie.
224 - Dr Dreadful
all those scientists who say otherwise, and continue to publish the research that says otherwise
That's funny, I thought you said the science was settled and there was no need for further research. Care to cite some of this research that has been published since the literature review you keep referring to?
An aeronautical engineering exam tests knowledge, not intelligence.
The point is that you have to have acquired a certain amount of knowledge in order to be equipped to pass it. Here are some examples of questions that you might encounter on an IQ test. Some are intuitive, but most require some arithmetic, language, general knowledge or logical ability: skills which would be compromised if you had not received a sufficiently good standard of education.
when interracial violence happens between blacks and whites, it is around 85 to 90% black perps and white victims.
Which can be accounted for by situational factors much more readily than by a supposed genetic predisposition to violence.
So because of racist (against whites) catagorization the FBI will absurdly list a hate crime by a hispanic on a white as "white on white".
It's clear, then, that you consider "Hispanic" to be a separate race than "white". Why?
I mock the entire racist (against whites) notion of classifying crimes as "hate crimes".
I'm glad you cleared that up. Must be why the FBI statistic for black-on-white hate crime is zero.
It looks like the grand jury has been waived in the Trayvon Martin case. That probably means there isn't enough evidence for a Capital offense charge.
I never thought there was. The case isn't nearly clear-cut enough. However, according to the special prosecutor, "her decision to rule out a grand jury had no bearing on whether any charges would be brought."
225 - zingzing
jordan--hrm. if you've spent most of your time in red states, i've spent the last 15 years of my life in blue states (and the first 18 in a red state that just turned real purple). that just may explain the difference, but i dunno.
glenn: "America needs this kind of constructive criticism."
there's a difference between constructive criticism and stan's 70% malarkey.
stm: "One thing zing will never appreciate: how much that kind of attitude can drive you nuts..."
you're kidding. i will appreciate it, as it's the kind of thing that just drove me up a wall. that sword cuts both ways, stan. not all foreigners know all there is to know on the us... and some of the things they "know" just reveal their own biases.