The left is now attacking and punishing one of their own for disagreeing with ObamaCare!
I have sat on the sidelines observing the ObamaCare debacle, specifically the protests, AKA town hall meetings, and I must first say, protesters, leave your freaking guns at home! Watching the volatile situation unfold which has included so-called AstroTurf, mobs and racists, pull-the-plug-on-grandma "death panels," Hitler sightings, swastikas and the like, has been quite amusing, yet very frustrating.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - roger nowosielski
A free market, Christine, is a myth; and we don't need to address the sins of organized religions. The discussion is not about individuals (there are good Christians as no doubt there are responsible and ethical business persons) but ideologies and the uses to which these ideologies have been put historically and in the present.
27 - Cindy
Dave,
I understand about unions that become just like the models of the same greed they're resisting. Under Capitalism you cannot break the spell of domination. It infects everything it touches. It's a sick model.
There are other kinds of unions. And guess what, the prisoner doesn't need any advice about how to be free from the jailer.
28 - Cindy
I support IWW Dave.
29 - Christine
#25 Cindy, I feel ya....
Here is part of my review on Bill Maher's movie, Religulous, who I think feels just as you do...
EXCERPT:
Religulous does show some of the dark sides of organized religion coupled with humor, and in Maher’s defense I can see why he has such antipathy towards religion. Maher has valid criticisms about organized religion in general because all faiths have been hijacked one time or another by crazies, lunatics, and extremists. All you have to do is take a look at the injustices, murders, travesties, genocide, and jihad committed in the name of religion. Mix in the motives behind some of the religious, like power, greed, money, and even sex (sounds a lot like politics). Follow it with hypocrisy, misrepresentation, outrageous interpretation, and commercialization, and what’s left? It’s amazing we don’t have more doubting Thomases.
By the way, you really don't know my beliefs in there entirety...nor that of Baronius and Dave, unless you know them outside of Blog Critics. Generalizing and attacking people due to your contempt of Christianity is really not fair, but it's never fair in love and war is it? All Good..love the debate anyway!
How did we go from Whole Foods to all of this?
30 - roger nowosielski
That is a good point, Cindy, about the model. Foucault makes a similar point about the dangers of adopting the court of law model in conjunction with implementing what's called as "popular justice," because that model carries within itself all the accoutrements and the ideology of the bourgeois concept of justice.
31 - roger nowosielski
An inference about the quality of a person's religious belief(s) can be made in light of some of the less-than-sensitive remarks they may or may not make on any variety of subjects.
32 - Christine
But Roger, aren't you (or anyone else) judging based on YOUR interpretation of that Religion and then proceed to KNOW how that person is supposed to think, speak or act? Whether in it's commission or omission of course!
Getting tired...BC wears me out! Need to go count all of my billions of dollars then off to church! LOL
33 - roger nowosielski
Christine,
Christ teachings and Paul's epistles, like First Corinthians, for example, speak for themselves more or less. Where is the interpretation supposed to come in?
We'll talk later.
34 - Jordan Richardson
The idea that Jesus Christ wanted the rich to help the poor "only if they wanted to" is hilarious and leaves the door open for wishy-washy religious practice, which appears to be exactly what these right-wingers want in life. The prosperity gospel bullshit comes to mind: oh yes, Jesus wants you to be rich.
While it may be true that Jesus never wanted anyone to be "poor (in spirit, I surmise)," he also taught that a pile of material possessions and a focus on amassing them made for a difficult approach to spirituality and getting into heaven.
This idea, largely thought by many Americans, that having the government "force" you to help others through taxes/health care/welfare/etc. is bad and that the "Christian" way to do things is do it "voluntarily" is really playing semantics in one hand and denying ethical responsibility in the other.
Christianity and indeed most of the world's religious points of view count on the idea that material goods are temporary while service to the poor and less fortunate, no matter who they are or where they're from or if we (it's not our role to judge) deem them worthy, is permanent in the eyes of "God." Helping out the "least of these" is the true message of the gospels in Christianity, yet it's the first damn thing the American brand of Christianity tends to forget or downplay.
Why? Because it's not convenient. It's better to build a party on being "conservative" with money, on not giving handouts, on being tight-fisted morally and materialistically, and on being incredibly proactive in terms of violence and warfare than it is to build a party that respects the environment as God's creation, keeps the health and welfare of ALL people in mind, and remembers that it's better to be compassionate and loving at all costs than to be judgmental and intolerant.
All I see here is more excuses. The health care debate is an excuse to not help people get health coverage and adequate care and the environmental debate is an excuse not to do what's necessary to stop polluting our world and to be the caretakers of "God's creation."
Instead, many of you have chosen to be caretakers of America before the world, of insurance companies before the sick and the poor, of warfare before peace and compassion, and of wealth and prosperity before service and love.
Whatever works, right?
35 - roger nowosielski
Well, it surely bespeaks of our intended role as stewards and of Christ's example of a suffering servant.
36 - Christine
#34 -- Jordan, how are you? I had to stop counting my billions to respond to one thing on your commentary. I AM 100% AGAINST "the prosperity gospel" being taught in thousands of churches today. It is bullshit! I also call them the "name it and claim" group!
Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rod Parsley, Oral Roberts, Mike Murdock, Kenneth Hagan, the whole bunch! I have studied this pathetic, greedy group for years! They are a disgrace to Christianity and humanity! I could go on but I am truly tired!
I just hope that you don't think that this is in anyway what I am all about and advocating. Just wanted to clarify!
37 - Cindy
Christine,
By your beliefs, I meant your free market ideology. That is what I consider fundamentalist, not your religious faith. However, your understanding of Jesus seems slanted by that ideology.
I have an affinity with certain Christian pacifists. They believe in Jesus as a god, I believe he was one of the most advanced thinking human beings that ever lived. You can imagine why I would get along well with people who have a depth of understanding about what he taught.
As regards your political beliefs, I don't need to know any more about them than you've expressed here.
Read my article on the chocolate slavery industry. It is a direct result of ideas that are espoused by free market advocates. It's a delusion to think markets, which are based on greed and profit can solve problems that take human care and love to solve.
The Capitalist market is like an drunk frat boy with the car keys, singing sha la la live for today. It uses up everything in sight, whether it's people or resources and does so without conscience or concern about causing utter destruction.
38 - Cindy
yeah yeah, my metaphor got blindsided by my passion...
39 - Cindy
As usual Jordan's post goes right to the heart of the matter.
(I still have to post in your article Roger. Jordan's post there sort of stunned me. I ended up thinking about that rather than finishing the article.)
40 - Clavos
Thanks to Cindy and Jordan for the stirring reminder of why I'm an atheist. All that Christian/Jesus love/care stuff was stifling my capitalist rapaciousness and greed; I'm much better now.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to call my maquiladora in Mexico and make sure the shift supervisors aren't going soft on those kids, I have to keep cracking the whip on them -- no rest for the greedy...
41 - Silas Kain
Would Jesus shop at Whole Foods?
42 - Arch Conservative
It's one thing to say you're not going to spend your money at an organization whose values are contrary to your own.
However I've seen some of the stuff the leftist moonbats have posted on blogs and said on the radio. They act as if they're going to put whole foods out of business.
If nothing else they're good for comic relief. It's just a shame that on blogs and the radio you can't see the crazy look in their eyes and the drool at the corner of their mouths.
Oh and it's now 8/24/09 and we still don't have cap and trade, or Obamacare.
43 - Jordan Richardson
Christine,
RE #36, I wouldn't dare dump you in with those crazies. No worries and I hope you didn't lose count! :P
It's just a shame that on blogs and the radio you can't see the crazy look in their eyes and the drool at the corner of their mouths.
Ditto for your posts here, Arch.
44 - Who'safascist
...the Foucault-Chomsky debate
What fun is that? For a better time -- and with apologies to ZingZing -- you could play Who's a Fascist. Using Eco's accessible Ur-Fascism (pdf) as a guide, go through BC's cast of characters pinning on tails.
45 - Baronius
Jordan, I don't think your giving our side a fair hearing. The vast majority of American Christians, even the conservative ones, approve of a mandatory safety net. We want it run well, and we don't want it to prevent people from advancing, but we realize its value. It's legitimate for us to debate the scope of our programs. People of good will may envision a safety net that differs from Canada's.
46 - Silas Kain
Oh and it's now 8/24/09 and we still don't have cap and trade, or Obamacare.
Only because Democrats are cowards and are so afraid of the power and money behind the far right fringe that they're politically paralyzed. It's time to take the gloves off and have a slugfest in Washington. The Far Right knows how to deal with a cowardly DNC; let's see what happens when they're challenged in the public forum. Democrats need to get tough, take a stand and come out swinging. The Far Right will run and hide like the soulless wimps they are.
47 - Dave Nalle
Why worse, Dave? Just as vile as the corporations, and they meet force with force. Whether that's the best tactic is another matter, but there would be no combinations if there was no need for them.
They're worse because their exploitation and abuse of workers is so much more direct, and because it comes in the guise of helping them. They also do a lot more political harm and have a vested interest in violating the rights of large numbers of people outside of their direct control.
Dave
48 - Dave Nalle
I support IWW Dave.
Is it better to support a union whose goals are idiotic than one whose goals are oppressive? I guess. IWW at least amuses me from time to time, though their general anticapitalist claptrap gets boring.
Dave
49 - Baronius
Dave (#47) - Also, companies produce things and pay wages. Unions only redistribute wealth. (There's a political analogy in there, too.)
50 - roger nowosielski
There go Baronius's aspirations to be classed among the people of "good will," insisting that the only difference between a good conservative and a progressive is a matter of scope, degree, and efficiency.
Lost in the shuffle is the original reason for unions (combination of workers), to offset abuses in the early (or later) stages of capitalism, to provide workers with greater bargaining power, things of that sort. Hence we come to the simplistic conclusion: unions are bad, employers are good.
Cindy, apropos Jordan's comment, it's all about love. I didn't want to say it because it's corny, but that's the bottom line. Christianity or any other religion is nothing if it's not first and foremost about love - the first and only commandment.
51 - Silas Kain
Since we're talking about government, God and food what do you all think of the CDC's recommendation that circumcision be routine? I need to go check the commodities and see if calamari futures have risen as a result.
52 - Cindy
Roger,
Like in the Gary Larsen dog comic, we say meaningful things to Baronius and Dave, but this is what they hear: blah blah blah blah blah
(There is a movie called Clueless isn't there? - sorry, my mind was wandering for a moment.)
I don't have the patience to bother arguing with stupidity today as I am A) not done with my article, and B) have to work all day.
P.S. I am halfway through the pdf, that Who'safacist provided a link for. It is very interesting. I am not a bit sleepy. I will buy the two books you recommended today. What is the name of the Eco one again?
53 - Cindy
Silas, Have I said how much I love you lately?
54 - roger nowosielski
Travels in Hyper Reality. Get that one first for the essay in question. It will give you the gist of Foucault's argument and more. Then you may feel you don't need to get Foucault's Power/Knowledge essays, unless you want to dig deeper.
We'll talk later.
55 - Cindy
Roger,
Jesus was probably hesitant about looking corny too. But, like you, he just went ahead. ;-)
56 - Christine
This is what I propose...All those who are REALLY concerned about the uninsured (estimated at 44 million) should start a movement where you go out find an uninsured person or family and pay for their health insurance for 3 years at a time. We could call it The Progressive Health Insurance Movement...
Do you think we can find 44 million to help out?
57 - Christine
I meant we because I would do it!
58 - Cindy
Christine,
I say, let's stop robbing people, then they can afford their own healthcare. Worker take-over of corporations. Fire your boss (ala Klein and Lewis). Now there is a plane.
Roger,
What about the Eco book? Gimme a name.
59 - Silas Kain
Cindy, I love you as well. Anybody for some calamari?
60 - Christine
The Progressive Health Care Movement
Because we really care, we'll pay!
Cindy, what if I am my own boss? Should I fire myself?
61 - Cindy
Christine,
Um, I will leave that decision up to you. :-)
Silas,
I have never like calamari. And at this moment I am grateful for that.
62 - Cindy
Silas,
Once the right-wingers manage to get tort reform in for medical malpractice, it might be a good time to become a physician who performs circumcisions, with discounts for adult Libertarians and such. We can give a full refund in case of accidental death or dismemberment.
63 - Concernedcommentator
Cindy, what if I am my own boss?
Stop exploiting yourself or you'll go blind!
64 - Joanne Huspek
I never really liked Whole Foods before (thought it organic-elitist, and don't jump my case, because I'm a food snob) but I'm going to give it another look. Why? Because I read the article and the guy makes sense. I don't agree with all of it, but as you say, he's at least pondering some options, which is more than our elected officials are doing.
65 - handyguy
Cindy, sometimes you're enough to turn me into a right winger.
Isn't it possible to let Mackey and the boycotters enjoy their free speech rights....and then ignore both, as I do, supporting health care reform and continuing to shop at Whole Foods. And giggling when people call companies like Whole Foods [or Starbucks] evil. Reedickaluss.
And, yes, rolling my eyes when Dave claims all unions are evil -- equally ridiculous. The rhetoric on here goes off both deep ends entirely too frequently.
66 - Christine
63 - Concernedcommentator
Aug 24, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Cindy, what if I am my own boss?
Stop exploiting yourself or you'll go blind!
What the heck does that mean?
67 - leftwinger
Handyguy - fyi - you are a right winger. You're just a pinker shade than the Daves of the world.
68 - handyguy
Whew, thanks for clearing that up. I get so confused by all those wings...
Is 'pinker shade of Dave' like 'whiter shade of pale'?
69 - roger nowosielski
Cindy,
I answered in #54.
70 - roger nowosielski
That's a good one, Handy. Remember, though: everything is relative. In fact, you're a capitalist pig to a Maoist.
71 - handyguy
And, apparently, a Maoist to some of BC's most vociferous capitalist piglets.
72 - roger nowosielski
Now you got it. And so the world turns.
73 - Baronius
Handy, I don't think of you as either wing. I think you're a moderate who sees the world through deeply anti-conservative-colored glasses.
74 - handyguy
I would of course describe myself differently. I am allergic to hyperbolic rhetoric from all sides.
The rhetoric from the right bugs me more, especially when I perceive it to be grossly unfair, which is pretty often.
Low-tax, small government, these are ideas/goals I can empathize with, but I don't think it's practical in a big country with a big gap between rich and poor.
And I find repellent the tendency of some rhetoricians/would-be comics popular on the right [Beck, Coulter, Limbaugh] to derive humor and pleasure from being cruel and nasty. [And to deliberately push the envelope in the stretch-the-truth department.]
[Although I love Wonkette. It's just that their meanness is just a funny attitude and it's accompanied by smarts.]
75 - Cindy
Cindy, sometimes you're enough to turn me into a right winger.
And there's no better time to switch.
Illtellyawhatimgunnadoo. Ya know, cuz I like yur face. So, jus fer yu, I'm gunna ex-tend my speshull circumcijin offer. If yu decide to become a right-winger, I'm gunna give yu such a deal, yu'll wanna get anuther one even if yu alreddy had one.