Racism and sexism are perverse, regardless of whose ox is being gored. They are not likely to disappear soon.
There are doubtless some people who will vote for or against Senator Obama because he is Black. Some will doubtless vote for or against Senator McCain because he is not. According to a recent AP-Yahoo News survey, there are many Whites who harbor misgivings about Blacks. This survey focused on the attitudes of Whites concerning such characteristics of Blacks as violence, trustworthiness, responsibility and boastfulness. A similar survey of Black attitudes toward Whites would have been useful. The best I have been able to find is a survey conducted in 2002 and reported in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin (free registration required; PDF format) which focused on attitudes of Blacks toward Whites and vice versa. The respondents were male and female, Black and White, students at six universities selected to provide regional diversity. It is an interesting academic study, rather tightly written, and full of complex statistical methodology. Still, those who find such things comprehensible (I had many problems, but think I got the basic thrust) might also find it interesting. The similarities between the results of the 2002 (Black and White) and 2008 (White only) surveys seem, to me, quite remarkable.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Iris Bittencourt
Mr. Miller,
Thanks for responding to my e-mail. I have to run, but please refer to my earlier post (#17) for empirical data regarding affirmative action after the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for blacks, white women, Asians and Hispanics.
Slavery was widely accepted by whom? The slaves? Indentured servants are not the same as slaves. What property or benefits did slave earn and were able to pass on to their children? How much did indentured servants earn? Were slaves allowed to be educated? How about indentured servants? Were slaves allowed to marry and maintain a family? How about indentured servants? Were slaves whipped and brutally punished at the will of white society? How about indentured servants? If slaves ran off and tried to escape, what would society do? How about for indentured servants?
Racism, not slavery, was invented in the 14th century.
Immigration data is public information. Do a google search. How many African descendants migrated to the U.S. from 1863 to the present?
77 - David Black
"No one argues with countries that know how to make money" And how many countries have a beef with the USA these days? Is it none?"
The countries that have a problem with the US these days are those that have succumbed to Islamic infestations and anti-Israeli prejudice. You know the kind of country, where the immigrants refuse to assimilate into the native culture, preferring instead to install an exact duplicate of their own culture.
Just like England right now, Christopher. Don't deny it, I read the news reports. I know how Islamic immigrants are hijacking your country and everyone's hands are tied from speaking out due to very strict libel laws.
Funny that so many foreigners express how much they despise the US yet look at how much they gobble up our pop culture and electronic gadgets.
78 - Pablo
You certainly are a piece of work Black. I could not possibly offer a better rebuttal to your world views, and obvious love of totalitarianism, and hatred of those that are not of your ilk, than you do with your own words. Please continue!
79 - Baronius
"Racism, not slavery, was invented in the 14th century."
Huh? I mean, really: huh?
80 - David Black
"I could not possibly offer a better rebuttal to your world views, and obvious love of totalitarianism"
So I guess I should just sit on my hands like a cowardly lib and simply witness my people being slaughtered by Islamo-fascist thugs?
Tell me one thing I've written that is not true.
In order to tell the truth, you can't view all cultures, people, races, ideologies, etc on the same moral plane.
There are inferior cultures. There are superior cultures. Islam is an inferior culture. What goes on under its banner proves it.
What other religion right now is permitted by its own to commit as much mass murder and horror as Islam?
81 - Christopher Rose
Mr Black, so your claim that "No one argues with countries that know how to make money" has been disproven but you still defend it? As I said, you are doing a great job of showing us your grasp of reason.
Another thing that you don't appear to understand is how the media works. Anybody who relies upon it for their understanding is simply asking to be made a fool of. Your request has been fully answered...
82 - Iris Bittencourt
Modern racism emerged with or slightly before the rise of capitalism. I personally think that its origins relate back to the expulsion of the black moors from Spain and Portugal during the Crusades. The African slave trade commenced shortly after the end of the crusdades, lasting for a little more than 400 years, from the mid-1400s when the Portuguese made their first voyages down the African coast, to the abolition of slavery in Brazil in 1888. The classical empires of Greece and Rome were based on slave labor. But ancient slavery was not viewed in racial terms. Slaves were most often captives in wars or conquered peoples. If we understand white people as originating in what is today Europe, then most slaves in ancient Greece and Rome were white. Roman law made slaves the property of their owners, while maintaining a “formal lack of interest in the slave’s ethnic or racial provenance.” Over the years, slave manumission produced a mixed population of slave and free in Roman-ruled areas in which all came to be seen as “Romans.” The Greeks drew a sharper line between Greeks and “barbarians,” those subject to slavery. Again, this was not viewed in racial or ethnic terms, and it is pretty well proved now that the ancient Greeks and Romans knew nothing about race. They had another standard"civilized and barbarian"and you could have white skin and be a barbarian and you could be black and civilized. Between the 10th and 16th centuries, the chief source of slaves in Western Europe was Eastern Europe. In fact, the word “slave” comes from the word “Slav,” the people of Eastern Europe. In the Middle Ages, most people sold into slavery in Europe came from Eastern Europe, the Slavic countries. In Eastern Europe, Russia stood out as the major area where slaveholders and slaves were of the same ethnicity. Of course, by modern-day racial descriptions the Slavs and Russian slaves were white.
83 - Iris Bittencourt
Hey Black,
So should we deport all of the Amish people? How about the members of all of those separatist sects and cults? How about anyone who does not speak English as a first language in their community? How about anyone who does not know what the navy jack is and stands for? How about any one who eats French bread, drinks French wine, eats French cheese, studies or speaks French (in public or in private), has a French flag, has a French-sounding name, has a French accent, eats French fries or smells like someone from France?
84 - Iris Bittencourt
Mr. Miller,
Please see the following excerpt from an article that I found on the Internet:
"the number of black immigrants is growing at a remarkable rate. More than one-fourth of the black population in New York, Boston, and Miami is foreign-born. Immigration contributed at least one-fifth of the growth in the U.S. black population between 2001 and 2006.
A new Population Bulletin looks at black immigrants to the United States"what countries they are coming from, which states and metro areas they are living in, and what factors affected their entry into the United States.
Several new developments sparked renewed immigration of blacks from the Caribbean and Africa beginning in the 1970s. New laws opened legal channels for people wanting to immigrate to the United States. Cheaper and more frequent air travel reduced the physical and psychological distances. Better telephone and eventually email communications connected immigrants to their families back home, and sent news of job opportunities to potential immigrants."
Poor economic prospects, political instability, and violence in some areas were powerful "push" factors. The strong U.S. economy and the United States' long history as an immigrant country were among the factors attracting additional newcomers from these regions. Some analysts also point to a less welcoming atmosphere for Africans in Europe as encouraging potential immigrants to come to the United States.
The foreign-born black population rose nearly seven fold between 1960 and 1980, and more than tripled between 1980 and 2005. The foreign share of all U.S. blacks increased from less than one percent to eight percent during these years. This was a sizeable increase, even though the percent foreign-born is much higher (12 percent) for the entire U.S. population. The number of Haitians"the second-largest Caribbean group"nearly quadrupled between 1980 and 2005, and the number of Jamaicans"the largest Caribbean group"more than doubled. The increases were even more dramatic among African groups. The number of Ethiopians in 2005 is 13 times the 1960 number.
Overall, the number of foreign-born blacks rose from 125,000 in 1980 to 2,815,000 in 2005, with a majority arriving just since 1990. About two-thirds of black foreign-born are from the Caribbean and Latin America, and one-third from Africa. Only a small fraction were born in Europe, Canada, or elsewhere. But the African share is growing. More African-born blacks arrived between 2000 and 2005 than in the previous decade.
85 - Daniel Miller
Iris,
Just out of curiosity, how does someone from France smell? I've met quite a few of them, and haven't noticed any distinguishing smell.
Just as a side note, back when we were cruising on our sailboat (1996 - 2002) in the Caribbean, there was a general prejudice against French sailors. Everyone had it -- Gringos, Brits, Germans, Dutch, and everyone else. Most were concerned when a French flag boat came into the anchorage, because the general experience was that they would drag anchor and damage nearby boats. They did, more often than boats with other flags. There was also a widespread perception, particularly in isolated anchorages, than if something had been "liberated," the French flag boat seen leaving the anchorage was responsible.
Valid? Realistic? I don't really know. However, I feel confident saying that it was the consistent perception.
Dan(Miller)
86 - David Black
"Mr Black, so your claim that "No one argues with countries that know how to make money" has been disproven but you still defend it? As I said, you are doing a great job of showing us your grasp of reason."
Disproven by whom, Christopher? Some fatuous bleeding heart libs too afraid to be harshly judgmental of non-white cultures?
Please don't attempt to suggest that the media is the only source to inform my opinions and that there is something wrong with that. What I read from the liberal side of things here can easily found on the webpages of the HuffPo or the dailykos. Don't think for a moment that the lib, I'm sorry, PROGRESSIVE, posters at blogcritics represent some rarified species of pundit that transcends other media sources.
A lib by any other name is still lib, sparky.
87 - David Black
"Just out of curiosity, how does someone from France smell? I've met quite a few of them, and haven't noticed any distinguishing smell."
I've been to Europe many times, and many citizens there have an aversion to daily bathing and the wearing of an anti-perspirant.
Quite frankly, Paris during a hot spell stinks to high heaven.
Also, women who don't shave their armpits and legs are disgusting.
88 - David Black
"So should we deport all of the Amish people?"
If they committed terrorist acts or any other acts of sedition, they should be prosecuted and quite possibly, executed, depending on the charges.
They can "separate' all they want, as long as they don't interfere with national security or national interests.
89 - David Black
Gringos?
Why do white people have to call themselves disparaging names, when there are so many other ethnicities or races far more deserving of disparaging names.
For starters, I can think of one race that occupies nearly half of the US prison population.
I can also think of one religion that beheads prisoners on TV and flies jets into buildings during suicide missions.
90 - Daniel Miller
Ms. Bittencourt,
I would be honored if you would call me "Dan." Most everyone does. Being referred to as "Mr. Miller" makes me feel rather old. I hope that you are not offended at my use of your first name. If so, I shall no longer use it.
Thanks for the info concerning recent immigration patterns. I would still be curious to learn how many Black immigrants came to the U.S. voluntarily when slavery was abolished in the English colonies in the Caribbean. As noted previously, I haven't been able to find anything, reliable or otherwise.
Dan(Miller)
91 - Daniel Miller
David,
I do not find the term "Gringo" disparaging. Nor is it used here in Panama by Panamanians in that sense, unless accompanied by an adjective which it rarely is.
Here, in case you are interested, is a link to a recent comment on a local blog. We Gringos are sometimes disparaged, for what in my opinion are good and adequate reasons.
Dan(Miller)
92 - David Black
Dan: I read Ricardo's story and here is my reaction.
It reminded me of a saying my father used to say quite often ...
"No one owes you a damn thing in life."
No one twisted the arms of the natives of Dland to sell their land to the Japanese.
They got their money but they wanted more. What they wanted beyond their monetary compensation was not the responsibility of the Japanese.
As the rightful buyers, the Japanese had no further obligations to the natives, moral or otherwise, unless terms were stipulated in a contract of some kind.
As for the language thing, well, that was another issue. The natives should have told them to stick it as far as that goes. I certainly would have.
However, on their property, the Japanese get to set the rules. If someone didn't want to speak Japanese while working for them, the Japanese weren't obligated to guarantee employment.
Perhaps they should have thought about the legacy of their children before profiting from the sale of that land.
It seems to be that natives saw a good thing then had regrets afterwards.
That was just tough luck for them, but really, why complain when they had fat bank accounts?
93 - Zedd
Baronius,
"Bliffle, don't you think it means something that you don't see that kind of racism anymore?"
I think that you keep missing that what "rabid" racists believe has never been true. What moderate racists believe is also a "none thing". So how is a person to be grateful becuase people don't believe something extremely ridiculous about them but they only believe something merely ridiculous about them.
If someone believes that you have a tail. Off course you don't. Then another person who believes that it's wrong to think that you have a tail but they believe that you to be the complete opposite of who you are; that they things you do everyday without thinking, you don't do and cant do and maybe need to be taught how to do. Would you be excited that most people don't think you have a tail? Hope that helps. Welcome to our world.
94 - Zedd
David,
Let's wrap this up. You are getting boring.
Okay why do you think Blacks are the way they are? Smart people ask why. So because you are a smart man, please tell us WHY they are as they are.
As you make that assesment, give us a people that you would compare them to in terms of experience, who have come out better. We need a reason for them to be worse than everyone else. In order to do so we need a comparison.
Thanks
95 - troll
(Zedd - prepare yourself for a journey into the absurd...good luck
Black - please prove me wrong)
96 - Daniel Miller
David,
I think you may have missed one important point in the commentary linked above in my comment #91. You focus on what you consider the lack of cognizable harm to the original residents of Dland. You and I disagree, but I have no problem with that.
The other side of the coin, which you seem to miss, is the disservice to the new Japanese who went there because of the simple pleasures it offered before lots of them arrived. Their arrival in large numbers, and the resultant changes in the physical and cultural landscape, diminish those pleasures, not only for many of them but for the original inhabitants as well. Hostility, theft and even violence increase.
Suppose you find a beautiful, isolated place in the woods to go with your family for a picnic. Suppose there is a crystal clear stream. Then, after a while, the stream becomes full of trash and there are lots of noisy, unpleasant people around every time you go for a picnic, playing loud noise which they consider music and seem to enjoy. You might reconsider your view that it is a good place to go for a picnic. Suppose, on the other hand, that the new arrivals respect the place and make a conscious effort not to ruin it for others. You might then not reconsider your view that it is a good place to go for a picnic.
Several years ago, our local "Gringolandia" was a beautiful, pleasant place and the locals were friendly and welcoming. Now, it is full of gated communities and condos, and folks who seemingly want to make it resemble as much as possible the places from which they came. Not everyone, by any means, but quite a few. Sensing what was coming we left, and now live in a beautiful, comparatively remote, rural area where the locals are still very welcoming and the streams crystal clear. I hope it stays that way. We like it the way it is, and have no desire at all to see it change to be more like anywhere else. A substantial increase in the number of Gringos would have that effect.
Dan(Miller)
97 - Clavos
One characteristic of many expat Americans I first noticed as a child growing up in Mexico, is their puzzling tendency to tend to cluster together in the host country, shutting out, to the extent possible, the native population and its culture.
In Mexico, for example, the Gringos (and Brits) had their own country clubs, associations, and even hospital, and tended to cluster together in a few neighborhoods (upscale) in Mexico City. There is an American School, which, in fairness, was necessary to ensure transferability of credits for American kids returning to the States for higher education. However, there were also American Boy and Girl Scout groups, despite the existence of Mexican counterparts; there even was an entire Little League baseball organization, in which the teams, ironically, were named for Mexican indigenous tribes, and on and on.
I particularly noticed this, because my parents, unlike many of the American community, were voluntary expats (as opposed to those who had been transferred to Mexico by their employers for limited stays) whose move to Mexico was intended to be permanent (although for unrelated reasons, did not work out that way, after twenty years there), and who deliberately immersed themselves as much as possible in the Mexican culture, beginning with choosing to live in predominately Mexican neighborhoods.
Consequently, I considered myself Mexican as a child, and rarely (mostly in school) even contemplated my "Americanness." Even today, my wife (an American born and bred; though also, as an Army brat, with brief expat periods in her childhood), often refers to what she calls my "Inner Mexican," which she insists, is still dominant. Fortunately for me, she loves Mexico, its cultures (ancient and modern), and its people.
I'm rambling. My point is, I don't understand why anyone would voluntarily move to another culture, only to seal themselves off as much as possible once there.
Why bother?
98 - cuervodeluna
I will tell you why folks move to places like Mexico, but don't learn the language or mix with the culture.
When I first started going back and forth between Mexico and New Mexico, working on projects primarily having to do with the history of the Mexican Revolution of 1910, I happened to stop after 10 days or so on the road in a small town on Lake Chapala called Ajiic. This was in 1992.
After refreshing my body and mind with a long sleep I wandered into the lobby of the hotel in search of food--and was handed a copy of a "community newletter", which started out with words to the effect of "You don't need to learn any Spanish--we are all English speakers here".
Really?
I went out a little later to take photos for a book I was putting together on cemeteries in Mexico. I saw gringos always in packs of 4 or 5 abreast on the little streets. After making some images inside a church, I stopped at a little cafeteria for a cold drink. There were only locals, and one--assuming that I was a gringa and therefore didn't speak any Spanish remarked to the waitress about how surprising it was to see a gringa in their part of town.
I didn't actually speak very much Spanish at the time, but enough to say: "Chhht, hablo espanol senor".
A couple of folks came over to strike up a conversation then.
But the most revealing conversation I had was the next morning when I was packing our car in the hotel parking lot and a guy came up to complain that he was really disappointed in Mexico--that it was NOWHERE near as cheap as everyone in South Florida had told him it was.
I decided to give him my opinion that it was expensive because gringos had pushed up property values, along with the cost of everything else, had polarized the community and that if he wanted a real Mexican experience he would probably have to live in a community with no gringos and learn Spanish and learn about the history of Mexico.
He just shook his head. Clearly, that was not what he was looking for.
In short: Gringos move to Mexico to live better than they can afford to live in Gringolandia. If they can have a "muchacha" to cook their meals and wash their clothes and clean up after them, they feel they have made a successful move to another culture.
Fortunately, there are no gringos anywhere near where I live....
99 - Clavos
Ajijic (and the entire Lake Chapala region), of course, has been a Gringo magnet for about fifty years because of it's perceived "cheapness."
My point was that the Gringos who move to the D.F., Cuernavaca, or even Guadalajara and Monterrey (and any number of other cities), are obviously not doing so for the "cheapness."
If they then live only as I described, why the hell bother?
100 - Daniel Miller
Clav and Cuervodeluna,
The good news is that fewer are coming to our all-too-nearby little "Gringolandia" and some of those who came are going elsewhere, out of country. Equador seems to be getting warm, and I am told that some of the Gringo sharks who infested the waters here have gone there for better hunting. Many houses built on "spec" for sale are now for rent and are vacant. I hope to see some of the dozen or more real estate offices close. The gold-rush mentality has diminished, if not vanished. In the local blog sites which carry advertising, it seems (I haven't done a actual analysis, or even a count) that more Gringos want to sell their stuff here than buy stuff here. Still, the damage has been done, and it will take a long time for it to be reversed, if that happens at all.
Dan(Miller)
101 - Lisa Solod Warren
You know, Dan and Clav, you could listen to people make the same "complaints" about peope who move to the States from other countries and prefer to live among their own....
immigrants have done that here for centuries: Chinatown, Little Italy, the Puerto Rican and Jewish and Irish and black and Spanish, Indian and West Indian neighborhoods.... there are dozens of examples. Americans complain about those ethnic groups not learning English, and then head down there to eat and shop and soak up the culture. Eventually, most of those groups assimilate somewhat...it just takes awhile. But there are also groups of religious peoples, the Menonits, the Amish, Orthodox Jews, Fundamentalist Christians, Mormons and others, who choose to live separately in their own enclaves. What makes it all so differnt? The world is a large place. People can live where and how they like, yes?
102 - Andy Marsh
peope...Menonits...differnt...and you say I can't spell?
Throwing stones is such a bad idea!
103 - Clavos
People can live where and how they like, yes?
In the US, perhaps. Not necessarily elsewhere.
What Dan and Cuervo and I are talking about is the near universal arrogance and disdain of the typical American expat.
Your analogy to the US enclaves of recent immigrants is flawed, because immigrants to the US are moving here for better opportunity, while US expats (to LatAm, at least) are heavily skewed to retires looking for cheap living, and who, upon arrival, immediately begin to complain, loudly and offensively, about precisely the aspects of their host country that contribute to its inexpensiveness.
104 - Daniel Miller
Lisa,
I have listened and do listen. I think assimilation is often a good thing, but of course do not expect it to be universal or instantaneous. My wife speaks excellent Spanish (two years at the University of Mexico back when she was in college doubtless helped); I don't but am trying because I find it more comfortable that way. There are very few Gringos in our immediate area, and the local people (very few of whom speak English) don't seem to mind that I speak ungrammatically or occasionally use the wrong word.
There are many groups in Panama who tend to associate primarily with their fellows. There are sufficient people of Chinese descent in Panama to support publication of a Chinese language daily newspaper. There is no daily English language newspaper. Many of the merchants are of Chinese descent, and based solely on my own observations, far more little general stores throughout the country are owned and operated by Chinese merchants than any other group. They speak Spanish. There is a very large vegetable market in Colon, and my guess is that about seventy-five percent of the stalls are run by Chinese. They speak Spanish. The Free Zone (Zona Libre) near Colon has primarily Muslim and Jewish owned and operated stores, and I have heard of no friction. Some are even in partnership, I am told. I am also told that most of the Muslim merchants live in Colon, and that most of the Jewish merchants commute from Panama City. That's their choice.
Most Gringos coming to live permanently in Panama are no longer of child bearing age, so there isn't an issue about their offspring assimilating. Some few are of child bearing age, and if they and their children remain here they tend to assimilate to a greater or lesser extent.
What I do object to is the efforts of the unassimilated to be unkind to and demanding of the locals who have not bothered to assimilate to their ways. People who come to a new country should not expect or want to bring their former environments with them. Here, were I to go to a Government office to get my driving license renewed, and insist that the clerk trying to assist me speak English, I would be thought a fool; quite properly so. Speaking more loudly would not help. When I need the services of an attorney or a physician, I do look for and eventually find one who speaks and understands English well, for very good reasons: they are available, my Spanish is not adequate to explain a complex problem or to understand the offered suggestions, and effective communication on such matters is important to me.
Were I living in Panama illegally, without having gone through the tedious process of securing a permanent residence visa, I would more than likely be deported. Were I to commit a non-trivial crime, even as a legal immigrant, I would probably be deported. Were I an illegal immigrant and in that status to demand free English or Spanish language medical or legal services, or free education n English or in Spanish for my children, or anything else, I would be laughed at and deported. Even as one here legally, were I to go to a subsidized medical clinic intended for the local population and demand the services of an English speaking physician, I would be told, probably politely, that no such person was available. Were I willing to accept the service of a non-English speaking physician, treatment would be provided on the same basis, and at the same cost, as to a Panamanian (about $3.00 for a visit).
The world is a large place. People can live where and how they like, yes? Yes and no. So long as they abide by the laws, they can. If they find unpleasant the customs, infrastructure and other aspects of a place, or are intent upon changing them to accommodate their wishes, I would suggest (and hope) that they go elsewhere. Foreigners should not expect to mold a different country and different culture in which they chose to live to make them congenial to their own desires, even though they may perceive that they have the very best of intentions.
Dan(Miller)
105 - Lisa Solod Warren
I don't disagree with you. I moved to Paris for just two years, my kids went to French schools, quickly became fluent (my husband already was, so he navigated difficult things for me like getting a cell phone and turning on utilities) but I took immersion clases and quickly became fluent enough to shop, cook, use transportation, negotiate well enough, attend dinner parties, with natives, go to french movies, etc. I had french friends with whom I made every effort to speak the language and they made efforts to speak english to me, we went back and forth. I expected NO accomodation, make no complaints and lived as like a native as I could, including having my two children, of different sexes and ages share a bedroom (split down the middle with a bookcase)and dragging my laundry to a laudromat to dry (there was a washer in the flat, and I hung up what I could). I shopped daily with my little cart, etc., and watched french news. I did have english and american friends, too, with whom to speak, and an american doctor, however. WHenever I have traveled, whether to south america, including brazil, or to spain or spanish speaking countries where I speak some spanish, or around europe, I do not act like a tourist but try my best to adapt. it seems to be the kindest and must fun thing to do.
I have seen ugly americans and ugly brits and ugly germas most specifically. Oh, and very ugly japanese:) I appreciate when people make an effort whether they are visiting or living.
I do not believe people should live illegally (my grandparents came here legally escaping oppression) anywhere and should ask for asylum but I think the government should take those requests seriously.
And I absolutely agree that people who come to a country to live permanently should make every effort to learn that language even should they choose to speak their own language at home and to their children.
But I also believe that every American should learn at least ONE foreign language which few do. It would make us appreciate how difficult it can be. Also, if we learn young, as my children have, fluencey and learning another are much much easier. It was hard for me to learn french as a middle aged woman but I did it:) The Spanish I learned as a young teen was far easier! I don't know how long you have lived there but I suspec a little more pillow talk and television and your Spanish would greatly improve:)
106 - David Black
"Okay why do you think Blacks are the way they are? Smart people ask why. So because you are a smart man, please tell us WHY they are as they are."
Read "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray.
107 - Zedd
Dan(Miller)
Your comment that Affirmative Action has outlived it's usefulness is interesting.
The first version of Affirm Act was installed in 1961. That's only 47yrs ago. Off course you know that it wasn't widely practiced until the mid to late 70's, 30 - 35yrs ago.
You think that an initiative that was designed to uplift millions of people who were below human status for hundreds of years could outlive it's usefulness in 30yrs? Don't be silly.
The reason that things are so challenging for African Americans is that this nation handled the entire matter after slavery badly. This nation never acknowledged the extent of wrong that the act of enslaving its people was, therefore the cancer kept festering and racist attitudes got worse. It never morned or atoned after civil rights. Everyone just wanted to move on, give them legislation (that most people wouldn't follow and many STILL don't) and hope they shut up because they are cramping our style.
I'm sorry that you don't see the usefulness of Affirmative Action. However, it's not for you or even about you. How you feel about it is neither here or there really. It's there to do what would never be done in America by Americans.
108 - Zedd
David,
You are saying that you are genetically superior to Blacks.
If that is that case then why does it bother you that they don't do better? It should be expected.
Just as you aren't angry about farm animals not working complex mathematical operations, why are you angry that Blacks, who you believe to be naturally less intellectually gifted, don't do as well as Whites in our society? Much like your pets, you should be willing to take care of Blacks. Retire all of them and be the benevolent caretaker and exercise your dominion over the earth.
What are you thoughts on that, oh great Superior White Guy, who knows more just by virtue of your birth. Actually your posts are a testament to the Bell Curve. Every time I read your posts I am even more convinced. The Bell Curve was right. What a masterpiece!
109 - Clavos
It never morned or atoned after civil rights.
And it never should.
No one alive today had anything whatever to do with slavery. None of my ancestors (or those of a substantial number, if not the majority, of Americans today) had even arrived here when slavery existed in this country.
Should Germans born after 1945 atone or mourn for the way Hitler and his followers treated Jews?
No. That's a ridiculous idea.
How you feel about it is neither here or there really.
Wrong. Insofar as it affects the lives of all Americans (and it does. All of us), how we all feel about it is absolutely relevant.
The law is in place. Use it where necessary and when appropriate.
But DO NOT expect me to atone or mourn for something neither I nor any of my ancestors had anything to do with, or were even present at, much less participated in.
It will not happen.
110 - Zedd
Clav,
"Should Germans born after 1945 atone or mourn for the way Hitler and his followers treated Jews?"
We were all around in the sixties. The nation needs to face it's sins. It just does. Full stop. What's the prob.
Regarding the Germans, they have. Actually I was thinking of the Germans when responding. They have created memorials (without a great deal of protest) and have really acknowledged publicly the sick nature of that era. Do some homework lil'Fella.
111 - Zedd
Clav,
You forget, I am not an African American (in the cultural sense) either. I will mourn and will feel the hurt and embarrassment of this great nation as a benefactor of all of its riches, many of which would not have been had it not been for the hundreds of years of sacrifice that these people have given this nation. All without a fitting revolt. You were not present during any part of Americas history yet you celebrate it's triumphs. You should mourn for its missteps and vow to never allow it to happen again. This should not be a matter for human beings to debate.
This entire issue has actually turned out to be a high school popularity contest. No matter how dumb or cruel or ridiculous the consensus is, people like you will gleefully sway along because the cool kids say it's cool. Clav, your an old man. Grow up.
112 - Iris Bittencourt
In Post #61, the infamous Black states:
"3.7% of Alaska's population is black, whereas 17.4% of New York's population is black."
Right, now ask yourself which state has the higher crime rate.
Libs need to stop avoiding the obvious conclusion why that is so."
Well, let's look at the objective data.
With a total population of 663,661, Alaska had a total crime index of 28,170 or 1 crime for every 23.56 people.
Crime Rank
based on number of crimes per capita #31
Safety Rank
based on number of violent crimes per capita #44
*States are ranked from #1 (best) to #51 (worst) for each of the 50 states, including District of Columbia.
113 - Iris Bittencourt
From 1996 through 2006, the rate of violent crimes in Alaska (murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) exceeded the national average and trended sharply upward in 2006. A report published in 2007 cited Alaska as having the nation's highest per-capita rate of forcible rape, with a disproportional number of rape and sexual assault victims being Native women (one in three Native women are expected to be raped in Alaska during their lifetime and are 2.5 time more likely to be raped than other women in the United States).
Crime Statistics Wasilla, AK Alaska United States
Personal Crime Risk 110 123 100
Murder Risk 107 105 100
Rape Risk 165 279 100
Robbery Risk 13 48 100
Assault Risk 220 144 100
Property Crime Risk 117 103 100
Burglary Risk 60 79 100
Larceny Risk 183 114 100
Motor Vehicle Theft Risk 70 85 100
Total Crime Risk 104 104 100
The data for Wasilla, AK may also contain data for the following areas: Wasilla
Personal Crime Risk: Index score (100 = National Average) that represents the combined risk of rape, murder, assault and robbery.
Property Crime Risk: Index score (100 = National Average) that represents the combined risks of burglary, larceny and motor vehicle theft.
Total Crime Risk: Index score (100 = National Average) for an area is compared to the national average of 100. A score of 200 indicates twice the national average total crime risk, while 50 indicates half the national risk. The different types of crime are given equal weight in this score, so murder, for example, does not count more than vehicle theft. Scores are based on demographic and geographic analyses of crime over seven years
Crime Rates New York, New York Wasilla, Alaska United States
Violent Crime 6 5 3
Property Crime 5 5 3
The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.
Crime Rates New York, New York Anchorage, Alaska United States
Violent Crime 6 6 3
Property Crime 5 6 3
The crime indices range 1-10. A higher number corresponds with more crime. Our crime rates are based on FBI data.
114 - David Black
Iris: I'm glad you made the distinction about American Indian on American Indian crime, which is comparable to black on black crime.
Remove them from the equation and the crime rate dips dramatically.
Whites aren't the ones raping in Alaska, as this proves.
It also proves that minorities are responsible for high crime rates.
Is it any wonder some people think the way they do?
You can have your own opinions but you can't make up your own facts.
115 - David Black
"If that is that case then why does it bother you that they don't do better? "
Because my tax dollars are being spent on trying to make many of them into something they can't possibly be on their own-- prosperous and successful.
116 - Zedd
David,
You don't seem to think too deeply. Poor people all over the world commit more crime in general. Most people with coporate jobs don't really need to pick pockets for instance or steal cars. At 62 it just never dawned on you did it. Wow that Bell Curve is on it!
A thinking person would ask WHY certain people are poor?
117 - Zedd
David,
When you say prosperous and successful what do you mean? My circle consists of mostly prosperous and successful Blacks. My relatives consist of doctors, successful attorneys, engineers and successful business people. The generation before consisted of teachers and nurses.
I live in Texas and there are plenty of dumb, poor, lazy, Whites with really bad grammar. Most of my neighbors couldn't conduct a meaningful conversation on current events (they are White), as middle class as they are.
You've lived 62yrs and your world view is so tiny. Your need to feel important has robed you of a broader richer and more beautiful life. You are in your senior years and you've missed it all. Your views are really dumb and small. Your ideas are archaic and laughable. Your beliefs make you feel like someone special and I suppose that works for you. What is sad however is that you express them out loud. People pity you and respond to you in order to "rescue" you but you mistake it for an intellectual challenge. It's never too. Pull yourself together.
118 - Clavos
Regarding the Germans, they have. Actually I was thinking of the Germans when responding. They have created memorials (without a great deal of protest) and have really acknowledged publicly the sick nature of that era.
Doesn't refute what I asked. There is no need for any German born after 1945 to feel responsible for what took place before they were born.
I will mourn and will feel the hurt and embarrassment of this great nation as a benefactor of all of its riches, many of which would not have been had it not been for the hundreds of years of sacrifice that these people have given this nation.
Fine. That's your prerogative as an American citizen. Be as guilt-ridden as you want to; whatever floats your boat.
But no one else should have to, though they may choose to do so.
I feel no mourning nor embarrassment. Nor do I think any contemporary American should; though again, if they want to, that's their prerogative
I have never even been a racist, let alone had anything to do with slavery, and not you or anyone else is going to make me feel guilty that it took place.
119 - Iris Bittencourt
Black,
Who said that Natives were raping Natives in Alaska? Where did you come up with that nugget. How about the fact that little Wassila is nearly as dangerous as NY City and Anchorage is even more dangerous than NY City? Alaska is ranked 44th worst state in respect of violent crime. That ain't all Eskimos, my friend. What would you do for a Klondike bar?
120 - David Black
"You don't seem to think too deeply. Poor people all over the world commit more crime in general. Most people with coporate jobs don't really need to pick pockets for instance or steal cars. "
Oh, please! I lived in a poor Jewish neighborhood in Queens in the 1950s and nobody robbed, raped, a murdered like they did in minority neighborhoods.
121 - Iris Bittencourt
Clavos,
Do you feel proud about this country? Do you use infrastucture that was constructed before you were born? Do you feel proud about the U.S.'s role in World War II? Do you feel proud about our Constitution and how it has remained largely intact for over 200 years? Do you believe in original intent and care about what the founding fathers thought and believed at the time that they drafted the Constitution? Are you proud of the pledge of allegiance and the national anthem? Based on your logic, whether you feel proud or not is your prerogative, as you were not around when any of these events occurred. However, I am quite sure that if someone took this position (which is entirely consistent philosophically with your own), you would call them unpatriotic and traitors. What if based on these beliefs, new citizens ask to be exempt from military service? Based on your logic, should U.S. citizens living abroad be required to pay U.S. taxes?
Should we teach children history in school or only current events? Does history matter at all? Does morality exist in your world or is everything relative? Don't tell me, let me guess: you are not your brother's keeper. In fact, you are more like Cain than Able. Whatever floats your boat. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force.
122 - David Black
"Who said that Natives were raping Natives in Alaska? Where did you come up with that nugget."
You wrote this:
"with a disproportional number of rape and sexual assault victims being Native women (one in three Native women are expected to be raped in Alaska during their lifetime and are 2.5 time more likely to be raped than other women in the United States)."
It's called drawing conclusions.
Now I suppose you're going to tell me that it's white people raping American Indian women.
Much of the American Indian population still in America, especially those living on reservations, is violent, crime addled, and illegal drug and or alcohol dependent.
123 - David Black
"A thinking person would ask WHY certain people are poor?"
Sorry, insert "hand wringing bleeding heart moron" for "thinking."
People are poor because they choose to be poor.
124 - Clavos
Iris,
To most of your questions: No. I feel neither pride nor shame.
I like the rights I enjoy as a citizen (and I like the rights I enjoy in Mexico as a Mexican citizen as well), and I choose to live here in part because of the rights available to all who reside here (as I'm sure you know, the bill of rights applies to everyone, not just citizens).
As to your assumption about my opinion of what constitutes a patriot or a traitor: Patriotism is a bogus emotion engendered in the population to manipulate them. Traitors are those who actively work against their country (whatever it might be), such as spies or Jane Fonda. I have nothing but contempt for traitors, and am indifferent to "patriotism".
Re your question about taxes for US citizens living abroad: Given what I know from experience to be the nonexistent support by the US government of US citizens resident overseas, no, I don't think US citizens living abroad should be required to pay income taxes on income earned outside the US. However, the law requires them to do so.
Of course history should be taught. Though it rarely works that way, it is the means by which humanity can learn to avoid the mistakes of the past.
125 - David Black
When you say prosperous and successful what do you mean?
That they are conservative Republicans who reject all social engineering on behalf of minorities..
"My circle consists of mostly prosperous and successful Blacks. My relatives consist of doctors, successful attorneys, engineers and successful business people."
I know that cross breeding with Caucasians significantly helped the black race in America in many respects.