Many people are commenting on Morgan Reynolds's comments that the WTC collapse was controlled demolition and not the planes flying into the towers. Let's take a look at some facts...
Many people are commenting on Morgan Reynolds's comments that the WTC collapse was controlled demolition and not the planes flying into the towers. Let's take a look at some facts...…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Dave Nalle
Shark, I think you should stick with the A&M bonfire deathcount as an alternative to Iraq war casualties. It's way more entertaining.
Dave
27 - Eric Olsen
here is the answer, now you can retire and take down your stupid website: shit happens that seems unlikely ALL THE TIME
28 - Dave Nalle
>>Never in history has a steel framed highrise collapsed through fire. WTC7 did, and wasn't hit by a plane. There is no evidence that it was seriously damaged by falling debris. But it collapsed as through a controlled demolition, with only small fires burning on two floors (those fires started in the afternoon. What started them?).<<
Wasn't WTC7 damaged substantially by debris, caught on fire, and then intentionally demolished after it was evacuated in order to control the fire?
>>The CEO of Controlled Demolitions Inc (who wrote the cleanup plan for the complex) reported pools of molten steel in the basements of WTC 1, 2 and 7. It remained hot for over a month. What melted that steel?<<
Ok, here's a question for you. If jet fuel can't generate a fire hot enough to melt steel, then what can? And how could they get enough of any of the substances which CAN melt steel into the building and wrapped around the support pillars without anyone noticing it?
The fact is that there's nothing which can burn and melt steel which could have been gotten into place in the building without basically reconstructing the building to accomodate it.
The one thing which can melt steel, which no one is considering here, is pressure and friction. Ever seen what happens when a steel bar bends? The bend point gets incredibly hot. With some kinds of steel the metal can even soften to the touch. There are also lots and lots of different kinds of steel, some of which can melt at temperatures as low as 800 degrees centigrade.
Imagine the pressure those steel columns were under with the weight of all those collapsing floors pushing down on them. It's like instant metal fatique, and the more that collapsed the higher the pressure would be on the sections below.
Dave
29 - Eric
Morgan Reynolds came out last year as a 9/11 skeptic
Clearly Mr Reynolds is indicting the Bush Administration as the guilty party. It's no mysterty that WTC7 was destroyed by well-placed explosives since the lease-holder, Mr Larry Silverstein, said he made a decision to "pull it."
The anthrax attacks and the (pointless) war in Iraq are all part of the Bush Administration's tactics to start a globe wide war. Sadly, most Americans will never see through it.
30 - Eric
Also, Paul Craig Roberts, former assistant Secretary of Treasury under Reagan, and author of the _Supply-Side Revolution_ also suspects that 9/11 was an "inside job" carried out by the Bush Administration. However, he's been reluctant to say so.
31 - Karl Jackson
>>>Wasn't WTC7 damaged substantially by debris, caught on fire, and then intentionally demolished after it was evacuated in order to control the fire?
There is no photographic evidence that it was damaged substantially. It was the furthest of the buildings in the WTC Complex from the towers.
In fact, the 9/11 (C)omission Report didn't even pretend to know how it happened. Early reports that the diesel tanks for the generator systems in the basement caught fire were dropped when photographic evidence showed that the basement was not on fire.
The fires broke out in the afternoon, and the building fell at 5:20PM.
>>>"Ok, here's a question for you. If jet fuel can't generate a fire hot enough to melt steel, then what can?"
Thermite, or the newer generation cutting charges used in controlled implosions to shear load bearing structural members.
In the case of the Trade Center Towers, they were probably placed at multiple levels in the 7-story basement, eviscerating the central core structure, which pulled the building straight down through the center.
This was the same thing that the truck bomber tried to do in the '93 Trade Center bombing, but it was parked too far from the central columns.
Yes, bending metal makes it hot, a fact easily observed when pulling old nails out of a board. Hot enough to reduce it to a liquid state?
Interesting thought, but I've never heard of anything like that.
And for Eric Olsen: Nothing hateful here, except your initial comment. How about answering some of the questions raised? Clue: "Duh, that's nutz and you all must hate America" does not count as an answer. I think you can do better.
32 - John Galt
Eric--When I realized the government's explanation about Arabs with box cutters overpowering four flight crews and making perfect untrained approaches into three structures was drivel and when I realized it was all done to express hatred toward Arabs in the form of illegally and preemptively killing more than 100,000 of them, I didn't shout obscentities. Your behavior is contemptible and does not strenghthen your position.
Dave Nalle--Steel can be weakened when force-fed oxygen flames are directed at it for prolonged periods of time. Your local muffler shop probably uses an oxy-acetylene torch to cut steel. Steel mills use forced air through purifed coal to melt steel in their refractory line crucibles. Nitrate based explosives get hot enough and are powerful enough to melt steel. Nuclear reactions could melt steel. Also, a new variety of aluminum-based metastable interstitial composite can easily melt steel.
The troubling fact is that none of these types of materials were in that building and none were carried aboard the plane. Or were they? What we do know is that oxygen-starved kerosene fires were burning at no hotter than 350 degreess Celsius. 800 degrees Celsius is required to even begin weakening steel. NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has not detected any sample from available rubble that indicates temperatures in excess of 250 degress Celsius.
Confront the truth. 911 was an inside job.
33 - Karl Jackson
>>>"If you look at how this building was made, you would have to be blind or stupid to think it couldn't have happened like we were told. Once one floor pulled away and fell, the heat and weight of that floor would be to much for the next. Like a house of cards, down the whole thing came."
Simple, believable, convincing, and completely unsupported by the facts.
If one looks at how the towers were constructed, you'll see that they utilized a "tube within a tube" structure. A massive central core, which housed the elevator shafts, stairwells, and utilities, consisting of 47 massive steel columns. A load bearing outer wall, also of steel. The floors were suspended between these with trusses, opening up a maximum amount of floor space.
If the "pancake -collapse/truss-failure" theory held water, and those floors would have went slamming down onto each other like vinyl records down a spindle, there would have been several stories of shattered concrete floors atop the rubble, and a couple hundred feet of the core would have remained standing.
But that's not what happened, is it?
Think about it.
Everything was pulverised into dust.
Practical experimement: drop a chunk of concrete 1,400 feet to the pavement, and see if it explodes into dust like a dirt clod.
34 - Prism Knight
Missile & remote control systems added to?small jets before 9-11; same parts found at Pentagon
Two civilian defense contractor employees--told to remain silent--say?other workers quietly retro-fitted missile and remote control systems onto A-3 jets at Colorado public airport prior to September 11 when similar A-3 parts much smaller than a Boeing 757 were found at Pentagon
Presidential candidate says scores of retired and active military and intelligence officials would testify?before?current grand jury probing government?involvement in 9/11 attacks
35 - John Galt
Prism please state your source or provide a link. Thank you.
36 - hdhntr
Bottom line?
The towers collapsed in anywhere from 8-11 seconds, flat. They were built around a solid structural steel core.
Absolute freefall in a complete vacuum, within even air resistence??
9.2 seconds, flat.
Shaking head at ANYONE's attempt to stretch the bounds of credulity, and the push the outer limits of absurdity in order to attempt to make what is patently absurd conform with the officially twisted worldview, that after an hour, the fires all but out, the firefighters setting up a triage in the building - the buildings collapsed straight to the ground from top to bottom at about the rate of free fall in a vacuum for reasons other than controlled demolition?
Take a safe or a grand piano and the north tower, and drop them at the same time, and all indication, and visual evidence shows, that they hit the ground at the same time, or if anything, the tower a fraction of a second later!!
Now think about that, and then think about the construction of these buildings, designed to withstand hurricane force winds, and an actual plane strike of similar magnitude.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_ch2.htm
http://data.greatbuildings.com/gbc/images/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.jpg
Large Safe (or Grand Piano)
North Tower
Drop
http://xenonpuppy.net/video%20archive/
Steel structural core and controlled demolition.
Proven. End of story.
37 - Dave Nalle
So Karl and John are contending that Thermite or the equivalent was smuggled into the building in large enough quantities to pack around the main pillars at multiple intervals to heat them to a total temperature high enough to cause a rapid melt-down. Perhaps the planes were just there to ignite the thermite?
About the only way that much thermite or thermite equivalent could have gotten where it needed to be would be for it to have been done when the building was under construction. As demonstrated in the first bombing, just parking a truck near a couple of columns is nowhere near sufficient.
What about the possibility that the giant elevator shaft acted as a forced-air furnace? That seems to make much more sense.
Dave
38 - hdhntr
Here's what he had to say on that issue. Sounds pretty rational. In fact, any other explanation as to why those towers fell the way they did is untenable if not utterly absurd!
"There is special import in the fact of free-fall collapse (item one in the list immediately above), if only because everyone agrees that the towers fell at free-fall speed. This makes pancake collapse with one floor progressively falling onto the floor below an unattractive explanation. Progressive pancaking cannot happen at free-fall speed ("g" or 9.8 m/s2). Free-fall would require "pulling" or removing obstacles below before they could impede (slow) the acceleration of falling objects from above. Sequenced explosions, on the other hand, explain why the lower floors did not interfere with the progress of the falling objects above. The pancake theory fails this test.
If we put the murder of 2,749 innocent victims momentarily aside..."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/150605wtccollapse.htm
39 - hdhntr
Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
by Margie Burns
George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.
The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."
It also had a three-year contract to maintain electronic security systems at Dulles Airport, according to a Dulles contracting official. Securacom/Stratesec also handled some security for United Airlines in the 1990s, according to McDaniel, but it had been completed before his arriving on the board in 1998.
McDaniel confirmed that the company has security contracts with the Department of Defense, including the U.S. Army, but did not detail the nature of the work, citing security concerns. It has an ongoing line with the General Services Administration - meaning that its bids for contracts are noncompetitive - and also did security work for the Los Alamos laboratory before 1998.
Marvin P. Bush, the president's youngest brother, was a director at Stratesec from 1993 to fiscal year 2000. But the White House has not publicly disclosed Bush connections in any of its responses to 9/11, nor has it mentioned that another Bush-linked business had done security work for the facilities attacked.
Marvin Bush joined Securacom when it was capitalized by the Kuwait-American Corporation, a private investment firm in D.C. that was the security company's major investor, sometimes holding a controlling interest. Marvin Bush has not responded to telephone calls and e-mails for comment.
KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec.
The managing director at KuwAm, Wirt D. Walker III, was also a principal at Stratesec, and Walker, Marvin Bush and al Sabah are listed in SEC filings as significant shareholders in both companies during that period.
Marvin Bush's last year on the board at Stratesec coincided with his first year on the board of HCC Insurance, formerly Houston Casualty Co., one of the insurance carriers for the WTC. He left the HCC board in November 2002.
But none of these connections has been looked at during the extensive investigations since 9/11. McDaniel says principals and other personnel at Stratesec have not been questioned or debriefed by the FBI or other investigators. Walker declined to answer the same question regarding KuwAm, referring to the public record.
Walker is also chairman and CEO of Aviation General, a Tulsa, Okla.-based aviation company with two subsidiaries. SEC filings also show al Sabah as a principal and shareholder in Aviation General, which was recently delisted by the Nasdaq. Stratesec was delisted by the American Stock Exchange in October 2002.
The suite in which Marvin Bush was annually re-elected, according to public records, is located in the Watergate in space leased to the Saudi government. The company now holds shareholder meetings in space leased by the Kuwaiti government there. The White House has not responded to various requests for comment.
Speaking of the Watergate, Riggs National Bank, where Saudi Princess Al-Faisal had her ``Saudi money trail" bank account, has as one of its executives Jonathan Bush, an uncle of the president. The public has not learned whether Riggs - which services 95 percent of Washington's foreign embassies - will be turning over records relating to Saudi finance.
Meanwhile, Bush has nominated William H. Donaldson to head the Securities and Exchange Commission. Donaldson, a longtime Bush family friend, was a Yale classmate of Jonathan Bush.
On the very day of the tragic space shuttle crash, the government appointed an independent investigative panel, and rightly so. Why didn't it do the same on Sept. 12, 2001?
40 - hdhntr
Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down
by Victor Thorn
April 23
Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate ?power-down? on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc. ? a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton ? this is precisely what took place.
Forbes, who was hired by Fiduciary in 1999 and is now stationed at a U.K. branch office, was working on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, and said that his company was given three weeks advance notice that New York?s Port Authority would take out power in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC?s computer bandwidth.
Forbes stated that Fiduciary Trust was one of the WTC?s first occupants after it was erected, and that a ?power-down? had never been initiated prior to this occasion. He also stated that his company put forth a huge investment in time and resources to take down their computer systems due to the deliberate power outage. This process, Forbes recalled, began early Saturday morning (September 8th) and continued until mid-Sunday afternoon (September 9th) ? approximately 30 hours. As a result of having its electricity cut, the WTC?s security cameras were rendered inoperative, as were its I.D. systems, and elevators to the upper floors.
Forbes did stress, though, that there was power to the WTC?s lower floors, and that there were plenty of engineers going in-and-out of the WTC who had free access throughout the building due to its security system being knocked out. In an e-mail to journalist John Kaminski, author of The Day America Died (Sisyphus Press) and America?s Autopsy Report (Dandelion Books), Forbes wrote: ?Without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors, and many, many ?engineers? coming in and out of the tower.?
Forbes didn?t think much of these occurrences at the time, and said that he worked until Monday morning (September 10th) to get all the computer systems back online.
Due to his IT-related duties on Saturday & Sunday, Forbes had Tuesday, September 11th off, and thus watched the World Trade Center towers collapse from his apartment. While doing so, he recalled, ?I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work.?
In addition, Forbes says there were other peculiarities revolving around this unreported event, including:
1) Fiduciary employees trapped between the 90-97th floors of the South Tower told family members (via cell-phone calls) that they were hearing ?bomb-like explosions? throughout the towers.
2) Video cameras positioned atop the World Trade Center which were used to feed daily images to local television stations were inexplicably inoperative that morning.
3) A Fiduciary employee who was on one of the lower floors and escaped immediately after the first (North) tower was struck, reported that he was amazed by the large number of FBI agents that were already on the streets surrounding the WTC complex only minutes after the initial strike.
4) Last but not least, Ann Tatlock, CEO of Fiduciary Trust and now a board member of Franklin Templeton, had just arrived at a conference hosted by Warren Buffet at the Offutt Air Force Base (home of the U.S. Strategic Command Headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska) when the 9-11 attacks took place.
Coincidentally, later that day President George W. Bush flew into this very same base on Air Force One for ?security reasons.? Even more chilling are the Offutt AFB ties to the CIA?s MK ULTRA experiments, Project Monarch, the Franklin Cover-Up, and the diabolical practices of Michael Aquino. (Type any of these words into a search engine for more information.)
In the end, Forbes says that even though these disclosures could jeopardize his current employment, he has stepped forward because, ?I have mailed this information to many people, including the 9/11 Commission, but no one seems to be registering these facts.?
Obviously there are many unanswered questions to this story, and we will keep you updated as more information arrives..."
41 - John Galt
If you own the building, you can do just about anything you want to it under the guise of maintenance. After 5pm the buildings were virtually empty. Crews could pack it with hidden explosives relatively easily in the months preceding 911.
Larry Silverstein, leaseholder of the WTC, slipped up in a PBS documentary, "America Rebuilds", when he stated that he discussed with the NYFD "pulling" building seven and he confirms that they pulled it meaning destroyed it using controlled demolition techniques.
42 - hdhntr
But wait there's more..
Another Ignored 9/11 Clue: Bomb Sniffing Dogs Removed From WTC Days Before Attack
Jon Rappoport | June 28 2004
As you’ll see from the Newsday excerpt below, tight security at the Twin Towers in NYC was lightened in the days just before the 9/11 attacks.
What makes the particular removal of bomb-sniffing dogs so important are statements from firemen that they heard bombs going off in the Towers on 9/11, as they were carrying out their rescue operation.
Naturally, if people were planting bombs in the Towers, they would not have wanted those charges to be discovered by trained dogs prior to 9/11.
This matter of the dogs and the statements of firemen about bombs were completely ignored by the 9/11 commission.
Parallel: in the 1995 OKC bombing, there had to have been charges pre-planted on specific columns of the Murrah building, because no truck bomb of any size could have caused the profile of damage sustained by the building on April 19. Certain columns were taken down and certain columns survived intact. A few of the surviving columns were closer to the truck than other columns which went down. It’s likely that, on April 19, as the diversionary blast went off in the Ryder truck, the charges that had already been placed on the columns were set off by remote control from another location. Or the Ryder truck shock wave itself set off detonators embedded in the charges on the columns.
Here is the Newsday excerpt:
Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS
September 12, 2001
The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.
Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."
Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center...
End of Newsday excerpt.
43 - John Bambenek
There is no way enough explosves were secretted into the WTC in a matter of days. Seriously.
And gnosticism is perfectly relevant to this thread with all the proclamations of sooper sekret knowledge that only a few have and the rest of the world is stupid/insane/both.
But thanks for keeping my post at the top guys.
44 - Eric Olsen
when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can "prove" virtually anything.
Move along psychos
45 - hdhntr
I myself am not emplying by those articles that the whole thing was acomplished in a few days. Merely that the intensity of activity increased days prior, and very likely most of all during the very weekend prior.
Certainly, building 7 too would have had to have been set up weeks and even months in advance. Thus, Silverstein's admission of the CD of building 7 also proves prior knowledge and secret, yes secret complicity and conspiracy, which is nothing more than two or more people working together in secret for the purpose of committing a crime, in this case, the crime of the fricking CENTURY!!
It was a 'projection' of shock and awe power, for a "New American Century".
Open your eyes man!
Can you count down 9 seconds? Now, imagine a large safe racing the top of the north tower to the ground, and actually beating it there!
Now take another look at this, please.
http://data.greatbuildings.com/gbc/images/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.jpg
46 - hdhntr
You'd better include Gallileo and Isaac Newton among us, and, prepare to argue their "theories" about free falling bodies then..
47 - Eric Olsen
1) stop leaving fucking URLs - make them actual links
2) Roswell - how did that one turn out?
and on and on and on
48 - The Brain
Idle minds..... kill your televisions... it's destroying your brains.
For years the electrical utility companies have led the public to
believe they were in business to supply electricity to the
consumer, a service for which they charge a substantial rate. The
recent accidental acquisition of secret records from a well known
power company has led to a massive research campaign which
positively explodes several myths and exposes the massive hoax
which has been perpitrated upon the public by the power companies.
The most common hoax promoted the false concept that light bulbs
emitted light; in actuality, these 'light' bulbs actually absorb
DARK which is then transported back to the power generation
stations via wire networks. A more descriptive name has now been
coined; the new scientific name for the device is DARKSUCKER.
This newsletter introduces a brief synopsis of the darksucker
theory, which proves the existence of dark and establishes the
fact that dark has great mass, and further, that dark particle
(the anti-photon) is the fastest known particle in the universe.
Apparently, even the celebrated Dr. Albert Einstein did not
suspect the truth.. that just as COLD is the absence of HEAT,
LIGHT is actually the ABSENCE of DARK... scientists have now
proven that light does not really exist!
The basis of the darksucker theory is that electric light bulbs
suck dark. Take for example, the darksuckers in the room where
you are right now. There is much less dark right next to the
darksuckers than there is elsewhere, demonstrating their limited
range. The larger the darksucker, the greater its capacity to
suck dark. Darksuckers in a parking lot or on a football field
have a much greater capacity than the ones in used in the home,
for example.
It may come as a surprise to learn that darksuckers also operate
on a celestial scale; witness the Sun. Our Sun makes use of dense
dark, sucking it in from all the planets and intervening dark
space. Naturally, the Sun is better able to suck dark from the
planets which are situated closer to it, thus explaining why those
planets appear brighter than do those which are far distant from
the Sun.
Occassionally, the Sun actually oversucks; under those
conditions, dark spots appear on the surface of the Sun.
Scientists have long studied these 'sunspots' and are only
recently beginning to realize that the dark spots represent leaks
of high pressure dark because the Sun has oversucked dark to such
an extent that some dark actually leaks back into space. This
leakage of high pressure dark frequently causes problems with
radio communications here on Earth due to collisions between the
dark particles as they stream out into space at high velocity via
the black 'holes' in the surface of the Sun.
As with all manmade devices, darksuckers have a finite lifetime
caused by the fact that they are not 100% efficient at
transmitting collected dark back to the power company via the
wires from your home, causing dark to build up slowly within the
device. Once they are full of accumulated dark, they can no
longer suck. This condition can be observed by looking for the
black spot on a full darksucker when it has reached maximum
capacity of untransmitted dark... you have surely noticed that
dark completely surrounds a full darksucker because it no longer
has the capacity to suck any dark at all.
A candle is a primitive darksucker. A new candle has a white
wick. You will notice that after the first use the wick turns
black, representing all the dark which has been sucked into it.
If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the
tip will turn black because it got in the way of the dark flowing
into the candle. It is of no use to plug a candle into an
electrical outlet; it can only collect dark.. it has no
transmission capabilities. Unfortunately, these primitive
darksuckers have a very limited range and are hazardous to operate
because of the intense heat produced.
There are also portable darksuckers called flashlights. The bulbs
in these devices collect dark which is passed to a dark storage
unit called a battery. When the dark storage unit is full, it
must be either emptied (a process called 'recharging') or replaced
before the portable darksucker can continue to operate. If you
break open a battery, you will find dense black dark inside,
evidence that it is actually a compact dark storage unit.
49 - hdhntr
How do you make them links?
Roswell! Please. C'mon. At least take the time to read and examine what I fucking posted, before attempting to bring this into the realm of UFO's.
Saying no, simply because you cannot accept it by implication, is no argument I hope you know.. Is it motive? Prior conduct? If so I would refer you to Northwoods, and to PNAC (Project for a New American Century) for that matter.
On what basis are you saying that what I've posted is in the realm of "psycho" and of Roswelleanism? Because the government or a faction within it, including Dick Cheney, would not DO such a thing?
Are you aware of the 911 War Games Operations under way that day and who was responsible for those, and what specifically, one or more of them involved?
50 - hdhntr
Way to go Brain. More like an enclosed tin can which only recieves what it has been told by the mass media channels. Nice argument on ya there!
Brain. How ironic!
51 - Eric Olsen
I am aware of many things including the fact that there are far too many deranged obsessives who have nothing better to do than to cloud their own minds and attempting to cloud the minds of others. This behavior takes on the characteristics of a cult.
And for links: type HTML in any search engine and there it will be
52 - Eric Olsen
"darksucker" - that is classic
Shark, are you still hanging with these guys?
53 - hdhntr
Yes of course, that's it. I am clouded and am obsessed with clouding other people's minds, for no other reason than because I am clouded.
Fuckoff. That's rediculous. This is serious business. Most people know the official story is patently false, or at the very least seriously flawed.
Well, take the free fall collapse of the twin towers and building 7, for starters.
You say one thing.
I am saying something else.
Which - is the most congruent with reality as it really is.
8-10 seconds my friend, from top, to bottom they fell, for no reason, and the reason that has been fed to you makes no sense - not in terms of physical reality.
So you revert to name calling, and what do they call it - ad hominen attacks.
Who's the fool. Argue your case for the official story, against what I've posted.
So more than simply point the finger and shout names. Please! Rediculous.
54 - Dave Nalle
So, let's get down to the meat of the matter. It was the Jews who bombed the WTC, right guys?
Dave
55 - john galt
hdhntr--It's difficult for nonengineers or scientists to get their minds around the physics of 911. 911 was an excellent psychological operation. I did not consider alternative explanations for more than a year after the event. I hadn't even heard about Building Seven. Just after September 11, 2001 I saw a Diane Sawyer interview with the classmates of Zoe Falkenberg who died on flight 77 that allegedly crashed into the Pentagon and I remember mentioning it to my brother that it seemed rehearsed. That children of that age would never be so composed and well spoken in their feelings. It definitely seemed rehearsed. It probably was and I'm not even sure those were Zoe's classmates or whether a Zoe actually really ever existed.
I think the government admitted guilt when it coordinated the illegal removal and destruction of crime scene evidence. If that rubble were in a warehouse somewhere, materials scientists and structural engineers would be able, with great accuracy, to analyze the mechanisms of failure. It's obvious why the government ordered the evidence destroyed.
I think the second admission of guilt was when the 911 Commission didn't summon Larry Silverstein, WTC leaseholder, for interogation. Let's pretend you were appointed to be member of the 911 commission sworn to determine the TRUTH regarding 911. After learning that the controller of the property admitted that one of the buildings was blown up by NYFD, wouldn't you interview Larry? The 911 Commission didn't. Need I say more?
Hdhntr--you and I have the strength, education and courage to see the truth. Others don't. Please don't let them get under your skin. You have the strength that comes from knowing. They are weakened because they rely on a false belief imposed on them by those that committed the crime. Also, there are agents of the fascists spreading doubt, ridiculing truth, reinforcing the government line. Do not underestimate their power.
What do you think should be the next action, if any action, that resolved citizens can perform that would force independent but complementary investigations of 911 by investigators appointed by the individual 50 State Legislatures?
56 - hdhntr
Mossad 'artists', CIA specialists...military - most certainly authorized by Cheney who, months prior was placed, by Bush, in charge of various War Games Operations under way that very day, one of which involved, get this - simulated hijacked aircraft being flown as planes as fuel-air bomb missiles into major Landmark buildings, and Bob Dole's ex chief of Staff confirms this also, as to a whole host of other public record sources.
The whole thing is pretty damn sinister. A 'dark sucker'.
57 - HaLLuCiN0
"So, let's get down to the meat of the matter. It was the Jews who bombed the WTC, right guys?"
Thanks Dave for exposing yourself as enabling shill.
58 - hdhntr
Thank you John. At least someone here is being rational about this issue.
Here is precisely what would need to occur.
1) A not-for-profit organization needs to be formed in New York City, with numerous victim's family members on the board. If there is one organizing dynamic that is more powerful than the states capacity to dupe its citizenry into waging wars of aggression, unjust and unjustified wars I might add - it is enlightened people of great conviction and extreme courage operating and collaborating together in a spirit of mutual harmony to realize a definite purpose. It could be called 911 Victims Families For Truth, or simply The 911 Truth Movement, or some such thing.
2) Money. Alot of it, needs to be raised and, with all the evidence that's out there in hand, showing, make that proving, government complicity in 911 at the highest levels, I am confident that there are many many wealthy and influential true patriots who could be 'tapped' for any and all needed funds, without corrupting this 'system' with any sort of left/right political agenda.
3) Supporters: A growing central data base of supporters needs to be gathered around and built up around the cause, with email and snail mail addresses. Engineers, Policemen, Firefighters, Judges, Lawyers, Academics, Scientists, Ex-Bush Admin Officials, etc. and of course, regular people like you and me. Then, once a certain critical mass threshold level of people working together in a true mastermind alliance is reached, that's when a New York City 911 Grand Jury needs to be formed, and whistleblowers en mass encouraged to come forth to get on the record. Their protection would reside in their numbers, and the high profile such a proceeding would have, who's sole objective would be nothing other than to discover the truth about 911. A Zogby poll shows that 50% of New Yorkers believe that 911 was, at the very least, a LIHOP (let it happen on purpose).
Such an organization, and Grand Jury proceeding ought to take place relatively close to ground zero.
And it would accumulate such a groundswell of support that there would be no keeping it out of the mass media channels.
Holes in the 911 Omission Report would also serve as a central pillar of the investigation.
Something like that needs to happen, and the sooner the better, before anything else happens.
59 - Dave Nalle
Aww come on Hallu, I'm just trying to give 'em a helping hand.
Dave
60 - John Galt
Didn't 911truth.org already try to present a petition to the New York State Attorney General Spitzer? I think he turned down the request so he could address steroids abuse instead.
I contributed to 911truth.org but I'm slightly suspicious that they're CIA. Ever since I learned NORML was DEA, I've suspected the government was posing as the opposition.
61 - hdhntr
Nothing substantive has yet formed, because they keep throwing up sinkholes like Spitzer to pin our hopes on.
All that is required is the will and for someone or some small group to make a start. That's what I think.
There are like ALOT of people with knowledge who only need to know how to safely come forth with what they know.
To date, the truth movement has merely been concerned with the movement of the truth about 911. It needs to get organized, and anyone could start that process in earnest. Just be careful not to get infiltrated by a-hole shills. Even regular people, smart and educated people are simply desperate to prevent this knowledge from coming out into the open, it is such an assault on their comfy cozy worldview I guess.
Here's a link of some interest I believe. Sorry, I don't know how to make it a an clickable link.
http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=110&mode=&order=0&thold=0
62 - NJT
"when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can "prove" virtually anything."
Exactly!! - start with the conclusion that the collapse was caused by the planes, and then it can be "proved."
But an objective look at the facts, and the questions (very disturbing questions) remain.
I am an engineer with a degree in civil engineering. I worked for the state of new york in structural steel quality assurance for many years. On 9-11 live TV I recall a demolition "expert" stating that there must have been charges placed in the building. I haven't read any theories yet that convince me otherwise.
The pancaking theory - where was the structural steel spindle? How was this steel simply crushed, by the weight of a building that it supported for decades?
I'm sorry Eric Olsen but you should take a deeper look at some of the existing testimony before writing this off as psycho talk.
For example, the fire chiefs present did not expect the buildings to collapse, right up to the last moment. Yet Mayor Giuliani stated in a TV interview that he received a 20 minute warning that the buildings were about to collapse, and so he moved to a safer location. Who warned him and how could they possibly have known the building was about to collapse?
If you keep your mind closed and consider to insist we're "psychos" you will never get at the truth. Good luck to you and thanks for the forum.
63 - Dave Nalle
NORML is DEA? That'll be harsh news to all the NORML activists I know.
Dave
64 - hdhntr
"There a principal which is a bar against all information, and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer
65 - John Galt
To add a link... you will use the opening tag and closing tag. Whatever appears between these two tags will become underlined and colored, and if you click on the underlined text it will send the browser to the location within the quotes.
Example of a link...
Visit Dave's Site!
Visit Dave's Site!
66 - hdhntr
Kevin Ryan - Former Underwriters Laboratory Inspector for WTC Speaks out on 911 Once Again
---
Kevin Ryan - A Personal Decision
By Kevin Ryan
June 9th 2005
Have you ever found yourself caught between several hundred million people and their most cherished lies? After writing a letter to a government scientist, pleading with him to clarify a report of his work, I found myself in just that situation. The letter was circulated on the internet and for a brief time I became a reluctant celebrity. Of course I stand behind what I wrote, although it was originally intended as a personal message, not an open letter. Since many have asked for clarification, here is my message to all.
[For background to Kevin Ryan's personal story see:
UQ Wire: Underwriter Speaks Out On WTC Study
UQ Wire: 9/11 Whistleblower Kevin Ryan Fired - UQ Wire Editor.
To me, the report in question represents a decision point, not just for the US, but for humanity as a whole. We?re at a point where we must decide if we will live consciously, or literally give up our entire reality for a thin veneer of lies. In the US these lies include cheap propaganda that passes for journalism, police-state measures that promise security, and mountains of debt that paint a picture of wealth. Additionally we?ve adopted many implicit self-deceptions, like the idea that we?ll always enjoy a limitless share of the world?s resources, no matter where these are located or who might disagree.
All people lie to themselves. It?s one of the most important things we have yet to accept about our own nature. We lie to ourselves to justify our past actions, to protect our self-image, and to promote ourselves relative to others. This lying is at the root of many of our problems (e.g. nationalism and racism). Until we see this, and strive to understand if not control it, the resulting problems will continue unchecked and the outcome will be certain. Any organism or society that makes self-deception its modus operandi will make many bad, and ultimately fatal, decisions. The day will come when we are collectively fooling ourselves in such a way that we essentially trade everything we have for what?s behind our fantasy curtain. It appears that day is near.
The official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a key part of our current self-deception. More importantly, this story may be our last chance to see just how critical our situation is so that we can all stop, and begin working together to solve the real problems we face. These problems, for the US and the world as a whole, amount to a growing storm of factors including environmental changes, resource depletion, and growth in resource usage.[1,2] Undoubtedly the secret Energy Taskforce report of May 2001 would verify this, and help us to understand that our government is responding to some of these threats with a carefully laid out plan. This plan assumes that people cannot rise above their own natural, ego-based self-deception, and therefore few of us will survive the coming storm. In essence, they?re betting against us.
Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence has difficulty finding anything in the official story of 9/11 that is believable. It?s not just one or two strange twists or holes in the story, the whole thing is bogus from start to end.[3] In my previous job I was in a position to question one part, the collapse of three tall buildings due to fire. But this isn?t really a chemistry or engineering problem, and may be best approached initially through statistics.
The three WTC buildings in question weren?t all designed the same way and weren?t all hit by airplanes. The only thing they seemed to have in common were relatively small and manageable fires, as indicated by the work of firefighters right up to the moment of collapse. From the government?s report we know that only a small percentage of the supporting columns in each of the first two buildings were severed, and that the jet fuel burned off in just a few minutes.
To follow the latest ?leading hypothesis?, what are the odds that all the fireproofing fell off in just the right places, even far from the point of impact? Without much test data, let?s say it?s one in a thousand. And what are the odds that the office furnishings converged to supply highly directed and (somehow) forced-oxygen fires at very precise points on the remaining columns? Is it another one in a thousand? What is the chance that those points would then all soften in unison, and give way perfectly, so that the highly dubious ?progressive global collapse? theory could be born? I wouldn?t even care to guess. But finally, with well over a hundred fires in tall buildings through history, what are the chances that the first, second and third incidents of fire-induced collapse would all occur on the same day? Let?s say it?s one in a million. Considering just these few points we?re looking at a one in a trillion chance, using generous estimates and not really considering the third building (no plane, no jet fuel, different construction).
How convenient that our miraculous result, combined with several other trains of similarly unlikely events, gives us reason to invade the few most strategically important lands for the production of oil and natural gas. As I said, this is not about chemistry or engineering. Our continued dependence on this highly improbable story means that we have a desperate need to believe it. It is, in fact, a psychology problem.
Solving the problem is a personal challenge, and involves at least three-steps. First, we have to admit we were wrong, and that we were fooled. This is not easy for most people, but congratulations to the neo-cons for noticing that their political opponents seem to be least able to admit they were wrong on any significant issue. Secondly, we have to see that terrorism is actually much worse than we feared because the terrorists are in charge. Such a pause on a national scale would be dramatic to say the least. If we get to the third step we begin to realize the scope of change necessary to move forward in a conscious manner. Obviously the US government must be substantially changed and/or forgiven. New cooperative, multinational agreements would need to be implemented immediately.[4]
If you make it through step one and care enough about people to work for step three, you may face ridicule and isolation. You may lose your income and some friends, but if we continue down the same path there?s a real chance you?re going to lose those anyway. On the upside you may be able to hold on to some sense of integrity. The only thing you can be certain of is that we?re all in this together. No matter how you voted, what credentials or positions you hold, or what faith you have in people, you will face the consequences of our collective self-deceptions. Now is the time for each of us to decide between a stormy reality and what?s behind the fantasy curtain.
Of note is the fact that he was summarily fired for expressing anything contrary to the official theory of a pancake collapse. He just couldn't go along with it.
67 - Karl Jackson
>>"when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can "prove" virtually anything.
Move along psychos"
Who's doing that, Eric?
WHO is starting with a conclusion?
Start with the evidence, and work forward. Oh wait, you're not familiar with any of it. That probably accounts for the derision in your voice. It's okay, go back to your FOX news.
Yeah, Building 7 fell because bin Laden "hates our freedom". 19 Arabs, 7 of which are still alive and well, ducked past surveillance cameras stayed off the passenger mannifestos to comandeer a jetliner so suddenly that neither the pilot or co-pilot could get off so much as a yelp to the tower. Not once, but four times. They then piloted these things into those buildings, executing a precise spiral to strike at ground level, in the case of Hani Hanjour at the Pentagon, despite the fact that he could barely fly a Cessna.
Why did they shut off the transponders, Eric?
And how did they find these freakin buildings from cruising altitude? Did they navigate with maps and a Silva compass?
Did you know that Mohamed Atta was a coke-fiend and a drunken party boy who liked strip joints? Sounds like a real fundie. "This party's for Allah!"
Yeah, and they tied him to it on account of his rental car, conveniently loaded with a Koran (he left those in strip joints, too), flight manuals in Arabic, and all sorts of other goodies.
The problem is that he'd driven to Portland, Maine the night before, and FLEW IN to Boston in the morning. So how was his car parked at Logan, Eric?
Who's sounding like the whacked out conspiracy nut now?
Seriously, educate yourself.
And turn off the FOX News.
68 - NJT
Giuliani got the warning but the firefighters didn't.
Maintenance workers saw evidence of apparent bombings in the WTC basement prior to the collapse.
But just keep moving along, psychos, nothing to see here. Don't bother looking any deeper and get your "tin foil hat" quips at the ready. Because I'm sure you are all so smart, you don't need to understand or even read the evidence to jump to the conclusion that it's all a cult driven hoax. Our gov't would never do anything like this, right?
69 - John Galt
Wouldn't you do it? If you were head of the DEA with a virtually unlimited budget, wouldn't you spend the paltry amount required to infiltrate and control the voice of the opposition without destroying it to ensure another voice of opposition didn't erupt somewhere? That way you could pose as the opposition and control the amount of dissent delivered by it so as never to threaten your power. That's why NORML has been in existence for some thirty years, collecting donations, without accomplishing a single significant thing.
The government does the same thing in other areas. 911 truth groups in particular. There are a lot of red herrings being thrown out there that are used to discredit legitimate 911 anomalies that point to government participation.
70 - hdhntr
Giuliani got the warning.
OMG! I always thought that was just a rumour. I couldn't find it anywhere. Now I've heard it with my own ears. He was warned ten minutes BEFORE the building collapsed! Fuck that's a pissoff!
"...sacrificed, on the alter of freedom."
~ Rudolph Giuliani,
Ground Zero Ceremony
September 11th, 2004
71 - hdhntr
I guess the Jewish elite needed their own new, 3000 unit version or something...
Let's just remember the people who jumped, and those heros who were needlessly crushed while doing their jobs, all so that a couple 100 more 1000 could be slaughter in the name of "freedom" (oil, power, wealth, unipolar global hegemony).
Where do YOU stand, relative to this information.
First things first, you might want to consider looking into it, for the love of Pete!
72 - John Galt
This article describes the official Texas A&M response from the school's president.
Texas A&M response
Care to guess who the President of Texas A&M is and what his job used to be?
Give up?
Robert M. Gates, Director of the CIA
73 - hdhntr
Just a final comment before this "nutcase" signs off.
Giuliani did in fact say just that "sacrificed, on the alter of freedom" in his last 911 Ceremony speech, but I'm not sure where it was to be precise, and I don't have the transcript, but I heard him and watched him say it. You've got to trust me on this one.
Otherwise, I suggest some investigation, without contempt prior to investigation, and take a close look at all the information in a variety of different forms, including what's in the public record, as well as all the photographic and videographic evidence recorded first hand in real time when it happened. There's so much that was on TV that day and was never again seen since, though it is getting preserved on the net and in various 911 documentaries.
Look and read and think, and then and only then draw your own conclusions.
All the best,
HH
74 - R. Johnson
RE: Comment #67 You can't be serious.
That link to prisonplanet.com has fewer
verifiable sources than the Weekly World
News does. All it has is sensationalist
innuendo and hare brained theories by
unnamed and unknown sources. The tape of
Guiliani(if it's actually him)seems to
be tampered with,if it's not just some
outright fraud that is. It is a highly
entertaining site and all but I prefer
The Onion as it at least has some small
degree of underlying truth to it before
they expound and expand on their subject
matter.
75 - hdhntr
"The American people know what they saw with their own eyes on September 11, 2001"
States Robert M. Gates, Ex Director of the CIA
No, they don't. But most of it was preserved, the first hand, when it happened, recorded in real time photographic and videographic record of events.
Two things are of interest, or ought to be, for every American patriot and for the whole world. One, the time it took for those building to collapse from top, to bottom, and Two, what happens and what you see when you slow down the videos of the south tower plane strike, and take a close look at that event, from a whole variety of angles and video and still camera lenses.
The American people THINK they know what they saw with their own eyes, but did they really?
I think they should all take another look, just to be sure that they know what they think they saw the day it happened.