It is important to look at the historical situation of the framers and what they intended.
The much-bandied about phrase “separation of church and state” means different things to different people. To those from the secular humanist persuasion, it means that the state can make no public acknowledgement of religion, have no religious displays, recognize no tax exemptions for churches, and goes so far to regulate even religious expressions of private individuals in the public arena out of line. One also hears that any attempt by others to “moralize” or use any religious values to argue for a policy should be silenced.…
Article comments
126 - Dave Nalle
Hey Rant. How about you join us in stopping the religion and we'll join you in stopping the pornography. Neither belong in schools.
Dave
127 - John Bambenek
Better yet, how about we support school vouchers so we can send our kids where we want them to go where they'll get the best education and meet up with parents priorities instead of letting the government decide how to best raise our kids?
128 - Andy Marsh
Alice - that $60 million number was YOUR number not mine! and something tells me that the $28 billion you mention didn't all come from Gates...I'd bet only a small portion came from him...but you keep kneeling before your knighted computer geek...the college drop out that only hires college grads...hypocrite...that's what he is.
129 - Screen Rant
"Hey Rant. How about you join us in stopping the religion and we'll join you in stopping the pornography. Neither belong in schools."
Dave,
Heh. :-) Ya know at least that would even things out a bit...
John,
I'm with you. I send my daughter to a private school and it's tough financially. Since a large percentage of people carry a car payment, I just look at the cost as a substitute for that.
Vic
130 - gonzo marx
John B sez...
*Better yet, how about we support school vouchers*
as i have pointed out in other places, Vouchers are nothign but theft from the Community and no sane fiscal Conservative could possibly back them once they understand the basic mathematics of what is being proposed
if the "vouchers" were JUST fo rthe amount of the individuals proprty taxes that were being used for the local schools...fine, i have NO problem with that
instead, those advocating "vouchers" want the ENTIRE per student budget given to them, which SUBTRACTS not only their own contribution, but those of their neighbors form the pool of funds that are designated for the public service of said school
if those interested woudl spend a fraction fo the time and effort they put forth in advocating THEFT from their communities into actually studying the mistakes of their locally elected School Boards(who, after all allocate how the budget is spent)...and insured that far less resources went into say...sports teams, and more went into the ACTUAL education fo their children...supplemented by parental involvement directly into what said children are learning and the amount fo Work they actually do towards said education...
much more would be accomplished ...
objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Excelsior!
131 - John Bambenek
Gonzo-
Your statement that it is theft is interesting, but unconvincing. The community pays for education, and the public schools simply aren't delivering. If you want to say it's theft, how is it not theft when people without kids are docked for education?
The fact is, the community pays X for someone to get educated. I have no problem with vouchers being something reasonable but less than X because the more I look at things the more I see private schools producing better students at 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost. But that's an aside.
It's simple economics, the money will flow to the schools that perform. Is it so bad that community funds are being used in such a way to emphasize better education?
132 - Andy Marsh
honestly...I think it's more like stealing BACK!
133 - gonzo marx
John and Andy...
as i said, look at the Math...pure and simple, then read what i typed again
as i have stated, i have NO problem with you requesting a return of what you pay in taxes that is used for the school...essentially "opting out" of the public school program for your child
but let us look at this as an "equal protection" bit
does that mean that since i have NO children, i could "opt out" of my share? and thus save approximately 60% of my annual property tax bill?
the Reality is that the vast majority of said annual Budget for public education comes form those contributors who have NO children in the system...and what you propose form vouchers essentially steals their contributions, made towards financing the "public work" , for the private use of a small goup of Individuals
a very simple excercise in basic Logic and Mathematics when examined
as i stated, far better to bend the Efforts expended towards this Plan for "voucher"/theft into actually examining and fixxing the public school system rather than some shceme to "starve the beast" by pillaging a public resource financed by the Community
nuff said?
Excelsior!
134 - Dave Nalle
as i have pointed out in other places, Vouchers are nothign but theft from the Community and no sane fiscal Conservative could possibly back them once they understand the basic mathematics of what is being proposed
Taking our money to educate our kids and then not educating them is also theft from the community, Gonzo.
if the "vouchers" were JUST fo rthe amount of the individuals proprty taxes that were being used for the local schools...fine, i have NO problem with that
As I've said before, that would be fine with me, though I don't agree with your rationale for that limitation. If we do that then we ought to allow those who have no kids in school not to pay school taxes at all.
instead, those advocating "vouchers" want the ENTIRE per student budget given to them, which SUBTRACTS not only their own contribution, but those of their neighbors form the pool of funds that are designated for the public service of said school
Actually, no voucher program I've ever heard of gives the full amount paid for a kid in public school to the parent for private school. They usually only give about 75% value. The rest still goes to the public school. That answers the issue of depriving the public school kids of money, because the kids who stay in public school end up getting more money for each person who uses a voucher - and if what the NEA keeps claiming is true that spending more money will solve the problems, then vouchers should result in GREAT public schools as more kids leave and there's more money left for those who remain. Except, of course, money isn't the answer. The answer is accountability and the pressure of competition, and that's what vouchers provide.
if those interested woudl spend a fraction fo the time and effort they put forth in advocating THEFT from their communities into actually studying the mistakes of their locally elected School Boards(who, after all allocate how the budget is spent)...and insured that far less resources went into say...sports teams, and more went into the ACTUAL education fo their children...supplemented by parental involvement directly into what said children are learning and the amount fo Work they actually do towards said education...
I worked for 6 years in the PTA and the CAC in our school district to get them to do something about even the smallest problems and despite being elected as a leader by the parents of our school and having access to board members and administreators I couldn't get a single damned thing done because of the teachers unions and the entrenched bureaucracy.
Dave
135 - Andy Marsh
what about this...when I lived here on active duty, the school district applied to the fed for funds...I didn't pay property or sales tax most of the time...shopping at the commissary and exchange...so you suppose a private school would be able to apply for those funds??? prolly not...
136 - Dave Nalle
Actually, Andy. They certainly could. When my parents were in the foreign service those funds were available to us too when we were overseas and could be used at any kind of school including private schools and boarding schools. Same was true for military folks we knew at the time.
Dave
137 - SonnyD
The whole idea behind all tax payers pay to educate children is that an educated society is better for everyone, whether they have children or not. Each school district receives X dollars for each student enrolled. If part of that X dollars is used for a voucher to attend a private school where the student receives a better education, then you get a better educated society. The taxpayer gets more bang for the buck. Everyone is better off. Nothing was stolen from anyone.
The only reason tax dollars went only to public schools in the first place was the question of whether the private schools would deliver the same level quality of education. If the schools that accept vouchers agree to give the same standardized tests that public schools give there should be no problems.
Nobody is stealing money from the taxpayer. In fact, they will finally start getting what they have been paying for all along and not getting.
I fully agree, something should be done about improving the public school system. Good luck with that. The quality of public education has been going downhill for the last 50 years. Parents and the public in general have been complaining and trying to come up with solutions, all to no avail. Cutting back on a few programs, like sports, doesn't even scratch the surface.
Then, there is another major problem that nobody is addressing at all. Most of today's teachers are a product of this same failed system. They can't teach what they were never taught. Not all teachers, of course, some of them went to private schools or were home schooled or had parents who were able to supplement what the public schools gave.
There are so many reasons why schools are spending tons of money on everything but the job they are supposed to be doing. I don't see how it can ever be fixed.
138 - gonzo marx
alas, it seems some have missed a crucial part of my Point
you see, those schools are a Public asset for the town whose taxes pay for them
can we Agree there?
and whereas i Understand the frustration and point being made in the last paragraph of comment #135, i must strenuously assert the problem lies with those who manage and assign the budget...the local School Board
THERE is the root of the difficulty, they are the ones who set the priorities, hire the Administrators, buy the book and basically are supposed to manage the public asset of the schools in the names of the local taxpayers...
it is those elected Representatives who are charged with the Responsibility for ensuring the highest level of education for our children
it is therefore THEIR Responsibility, in a very real and literal sense
comment #135 laments the "NEA and entrenched beaurocracy" for the problems...and this is partially correct, but not completely...for NEITHER control the Agenda nor the purse strings
the School Board does
Excelsior!
139 - Dave Nalle
Ah, but the school board is controlled by the NEA and their threats, lawsuits and money. Did you see the John Stossel report last night? In New York they have a special room at one of their public schools called the 'rubber room' where they assign teachers who have molested students but who they can't fire because of the NEA. They just sit in the room all day and draw their salary. That's the system you're making excuses for, gonzo.
Dave
140 - gonzo marx
comment #140 again mistakes my rants and Observation for "defense" of something
nothing can be further from the Truth
in actuality what i am attemnpting is to communicate the underlying root cause of a Problem for Identification and Repair
systemic diagnostics is what i do for a living, after all..i just can't help it
as for Stossel..no i missed that report, as i would intentionally skip any alleged "journalist" who begins from a partisan viewpoint (hence why my news quotes come from AP, Reuters, Xinua and other "who,what,where,when,how" sources)
if what you allege is correct, then of course it is wrong and shoudl be corrected
but start at the Root...the School Board, and much will become easier...anyone who has observed their petty squabbles, clueless decision making, spineless behavior, and blatant pandering in order to gain favor for re-election...has observed much of what is inherently wrong not only with our School system...but with the current state of american politics in microcosm
/end hijack of Thread
Excelsior!
141 - SonnyD
Gonzo: Have you ever diagnosed a system that was so riddled with errors that the best solution was to throw it out and start fresh with something better?
142 - gonzo marx
interesting take, SonnyD...
the short Answer is...that isn't an Option and that ANY "systemic failure" can be repaired if the Resources are available
you begin by finding the Root cause of the errors, and then work your way "outward" as you correct them
but i digress
Excelsior!
143 - SonnyD
That's a mighty big IF, Gonzo. "...if the Resources are available." Go back to around 1960 when there was a big push to modernize education. New classes were introduced, like the New Math, that didn't teach math at all. New methods of teaching like don't teach phonics. Just put books in front of children, they'll pick it up on their own. The whole system went a little crazy trying to be modern.
Then it was get rid of all these old fashioned small neighborhood schools where teachers knew all the students and most of their parents. Build consolidated schools, it was supposed to save money. Big schools were built, big administrative departments were filled with overpaid people who did little but dream up more crazy modern ideas. Then huge fleets of buses were bought and maintained or bus services contracted for. Don't have to tell you what happened when fuel prices started going up. It was costing much more than the old local schools.
They had to save money somewhere. Did they cut back on the top heavy administration departments? No, they cut the number of classes offered and made the classes larger and harder to manage. They cut all the frills like music appreciation. Did you know that exposure to good music can improve a childs ability to learn. Well, they didn't.
After the move to large schools, problems with drugs and other disruptive behavior increased rapidly. Then the teacher's job changed from teaching to just trying to maintain order and keeping anyone from getting hurt-including the teacher.
Now, add the problem I mentioned earlier of two generations of teachers that were not properly taught, themselves.
There's your underlying problem-problems, already identified. As far as repair goes, refer back to Dave Nalle's comment. I give up.
144 - gonzo marx
SonnyD...i agree with much of what you have stated...
but you seem to have missed my Point..
in each of the Instances you mention, who made those Decisions?
who controlled the pruse strings and made those Choices
simplicity itself...as i stated, the local School Boards did..
some from the highest, but simpleminded Ideals....many from pure politics
unfortunately, since those are not "glamorous" positions...very few qualified individuals run for those Offices...and good folks stood outside the "Board" and tried, but were stymied by those self serving politicos who held their seats on the Board
you want to change and repair the System we are speaking of?
engage the positive/negative feedback loops
fire the School Boards, and elect those who are willing to do the WORK for the kids, rather than hold the Office for their own egos/purposes
nuff said?
Excelsior!
145 - SonnyD
Gonzo: I follow your reasoning, but you are the one missing the point. In your own words again, "...if the Resources are available." How does one undo 50 plus years of mismanagement and wasted funds? How does one overpower The Old Boy Network and get their cronies tossed out of office? If the school board were to be replaced, how does one fight the power of the teachers union that protects even the most incompetent teacher? What do you do with the mega-schools, how do you move students back to their neighborhoods where parents could get involved even if they were allowed to? In case you were not aware, teachers no longer welcome parents who question the quality of education their children are getting, even when they approach the subject politely.
So what do you do, take another 50 years making it right? If I had my druthers, I would much prefer having a really good public school system. But, if you would admit that your lovely theories just cannot be put into practice in real life, you could see that people are just trying their best to get decent schooling for their kids, now, not when and if the public schools can be fixed.
146 - gonzo marx
well SonnyD, i can understand your Frustration, and as i said...i DO agree with a lot of it
but then again, i also see quite a bit of it being "fixxed" all around me, all the time
to be fair, i also Observe quite a bit getting fucked up too
i do think that many of the Obstacles you speak about need to be addressed, regardless of which Approach you choose to take...
overpowering the "Old Boy Network" requires political Will by those effected...they need to do the Work to toss the bastards out, and more Work to get the right folks elected...
i don't know where anyoen gets the notion in this day and age that ANY kind of Union, teacher's or otherwise is so fucking "powerful"...this is quite the Myth perpetrated by Management types and the Wall Street Journal that those who actually DO the Work are the Evil Ones Incarnate
most of the wrong and waste occurs in Adminstration, Sports Programs, and that type of false "priorities" imposed by the School Board and their petty "pet projects"
as for the anecdotal bit you raised about teachers not wanting parents involvement...is this a direct Observation on your part or another generality?
my direct experience is that the exact Opposite is MUCH more prevalent...that Teachers WANT parents to be MUCH more involved...a decent portion of the Problem is that not enough Parents ARE involved in the education of their own children...expecting them to be warehoused and babysat for the day...
and of course, NEVER wanting to admit that their little Johnny could EVER do anything wrong
THAT is as much a problem as the poor Administration of the school systems themselves
i don't know about you, but i knew better than to ever think i could "get away" with any of the bullshit that is very common with some kids currently...my home work HAD to be done, and my grades exemplary...or else
this still occurs in many segments of the population...more frequently with the children of naturalized Immigrants, it seems...far too many American born Parents just can't be bothered
do i think "bad" teachers need to be fired?
of course
do i think that the Waste in bloated Administration budgets could be better served in actually teachign kids?
yep
but then again, i would like to see gym teachers be ex-military martial artists...to ensure that there woudl always be at least ONE person around the school that NO kid could bullshit their way past (ex-Boot camp Instructors would be best)
plenty of Options...but they ALL involve Involvement and Work
but hell, it's easier to place the blame on scapegoats rather than examine and repair that ACTUAL problems
you want to help your kids NOW?
pay attention to what tey are Learning..or not...buy what books you know they SHOULD read, and make them read them...talk with them about the Subject matter...STOP spoiling them by giving them things rather than giving them your Time and Attention...be their Parent not their Friend
but i know you know that...spread THAT "word" to those who express their concern...and while you are at it...kick the fucking bums out and take back the schools you have
it happens here in Maine all the time (taking over the school board thing, would that more Parents Be Parents)
i sincerely hope that helps
Excelsior!
147 - SonnyD
Gonzo: Re: The cost of sports programs, parents,at least in my neck of the woods, have to pay a hefty fee for their kids to take part. There isn't any money in the school budget to cover it. I'm not wild about them being bussed all over the state to play other teams, but there are kids, boys especially, who only stay in school because they love sports.
Re: Teachers wanting parent involvement. I would venture a guess that better teachers want it and less qualified teachers are the ones who are too busy to give you a few minutes except the required five minutes on parent-teacher day when they blow a bunch of smoke about how great your kids are and rush you out the door.
Yes, there are parents who don't give a damn. I hope they are the minority. The parents I know do care.
Come to think of it, my parents never paid any attention to whether or not I did my home work. They both worked and I don't think either of them ever spoke to one of my teachers. As it happened, I took some personal pride in my ability to make good grades. Must have been a weird kid.
I understand your call for action. I'm glad some people in Maine are having success. But, how many school districts are there in this country and how many will have that kind of success? And, if not enough parents are willing or able to do the same, what, they get the schools they deserve? Yes, the parents do, but it's the kids who will suffer. I still say, if all else fails, and this voucher system wakes up some rotten school systems and they realize they had better get their poop in a group or lose the money they haven't been earning, then use the tools you have at hand.
Have a good trip and return safely.
148 - Dave Nalle
as for Stossel..no i missed that report, as i would intentionally skip any alleged "journalist" who begins from a partisan viewpoint
Stossel's 'viewpoint' is that of supporting individual liberty and common sense. I don't have a problem with that particular bias. I wish more reporters had it.
Dave
149 - gonzo marx
a fair enough assessment and set of Concerns, Sonny..and my appreciation for your well wishes on the trip(gotta head for the airport in a few hours)
thanks as well for the calm and rational discussion
the Concept of vouchers doesn't bother me..it is the actual theft from the system, and the town asset of the school
as you obviously understand, when something goes wrong, i tend to hold those in charge Accountable and expect them to fix the problem..or they get replaced
my worry about vouchers is that not only the math i outlined previously...but the dismal spiral it will induce
if the school is decent or borderline...and some folks start taking money out of said system..it will deteriorate...this may "fix" a short term problem for some fo the students...but will make those that remain infinitely worse...so more leave...more money gone...until only a handful remain in a facility that cannot be maintained adequately
you see the problems with your "fix"?
no one said it would be easy, either way...but it is in discussion such as this that the Problem can be defined, chewed on and hopefully...eventually...made better rather than worse
Excelsior!
150 - gonzo marx
comment #149 sez...
*Stossel's 'viewpoint' is that of supporting individual liberty and common sense.*
i disAgree...as with many, such may indeed be the alleged position he espouses...but such may not be the actuality as perceived by others
Editorializing is fine and provides much useful info
but when it is attempted to be "sold" as straight journalism or reporting...i do NOT care WHO is doing it...then i go to another source
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
151 - Dave Nalle
So no argument no matter how well supported will persuade you, gonzo? Then what's the point of even bothering to try to talk to you? You apparently have a completely closed mind.
Dave
152 - gonzo marx
again..comment #52 seesm to miss the Point
my Mind is not closed, or even inflexible about most Issues
however, i will not call a "duck" a "chicken"...nor a "use of force" a "declaration of war"...nor an "editorialist" a "reporter"...no matter who may assert it is so
definitions are crucial, and very Important to me
those that attempt to redefine things to suit their needs and Agenda have difficulties with the likes of me...
and no one needs to "bother", i comment to gather my own Thoughts, learn some things and in the hope i can get even one person to think or grin due to my crazed typings
but it's still a "duck"
Excelsior!
153 - Dave Nalle
But gonzo, you admitted in #149 that you're basically not listening or interested in listening no matter how valid the argument or how strong the evidence. Self reliance is a virtue, but nothing is virtuous when taken to extremes.
Dave
154 - Alice
gonzo, you're not listening no matter how valid the argument or how strong the evidence.
Just because it walks, quacks, and looks like a duck, the evidence is inconclusive.
Listen to Elmer Fudd.
155 - simp-boy 88
So far, gonzo is my hero. I've been reading and
I love arguments. I say that our county was founded by xtremely religious people. So having a separation was (or should've been) a major problem seeing as most pilgrams wanted freedom of religion. Religous leaders often equals religious government. Am I right?
156 - Sully
You are incorrect on a point of fact. The Catholic Church is not, nor has it ever been the official church of the Republic of Ireland. The 1922 Constitution that established the Free State made no mention of the church. The 1937 Constitution acknowledged the Church's "special position" as the church of the majority of the population, however it also recognized several Protestant denominations and Juadaism. The Church was removed from its "special position" in the 5th Amendment of the 1972 Constitution and freedom of religion was fully ensconced in the political fabric.
That being said, despite the lack of official standing, the Church is VERY influential through its civic organizations at influencing the nature and passage of legislation to ensure a pro-catholic and dogmatically compliant government environment.
157 - Joel
This is obviously an old post, but I wished to chime in. As the author stated, baby America wanted to sever itself from the historical tyranny of heads of state and church. I think it fair to consider that whilst the founding fathers may have had their religious views, they realized a government run by one part government of the people and another part government of the morals was too excessive.
And that is what it boils down to, really. Government regulates society while church regulates individuals. To pair them both is a political atomic bomb that has never gone too well in the past. Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Jihad....
Government should only seek to maintain standards of society based on actions that could cause harm. Anything more, especially in the realm of the subjective topic of morality, is an abuse of power. Period.
158 - jadams
touché Joel... touché.
On a larger note, I too found the sum enjoyingly, insightful, from the entirety of raillery, net argument, view, cause & spin. Well done!