It is important to look at the historical situation of the framers and what they intended.
The much-bandied about phrase “separation of church and state” means different things to different people. To those from the secular humanist persuasion, it means that the state can make no public acknowledgement of religion, have no religious displays, recognize no tax exemptions for churches, and goes so far to regulate even religious expressions of private individuals in the public arena out of line. One also hears that any attempt by others to “moralize” or use any religious values to argue for a policy should be silenced.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Mark Saleski
was there ever any resolution to the property tax problem out in chebeague island (and i suppose other towns' folks getting squeezed by gentrification)?
77 - gonzo marx
some of it, dunno about the island itself, Mark...i live in the Lakes region
but the Issue has been huge here, on the coast, downeast and anywhere else that has new expensive homes going up built by folks from "away"
but we digress...
Excelsior!
78 - Mark Saleski
yea, we digress...so what!
the chebeague issue was that the island was full of fishing families, but everybody was being taxed as though they were a part of the town of tres-expensive cumberland, from which they received no services.
79 - Screen Rant
"Both are based on provably untrue postulates"
Yeah, right. Go pick up a book or two on Christian Apologetics.
Vic
80 - Clubhouse Cancer
Sure. Any you can recommend?
I've read a couple of books by Norman Geisler, and also Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig.
81 - Trish
I actually respect when people object to doing something that falls within their profession but goes against their spiritual, moral or ethical beliefs. Unless it's a regular occurence, I think they should be able to remove themselves fromt he situation. May sound a little too perfect, too ideal; but I think we must encourage people to stand up for what's right, even if we disagree with it.
82 - John Bambenek
Gonzo-
Strictly speaking the courts have said if you allow student groups and allow students to speak their mind, you can't restrict them when they speak about religion. You may have an opinion, but the courts disagree there. It's the separatists in this thread, who are largely confirming my statement that you are trying to regulate religion to obscurity.
There is no insistence that this be held on school property, the insistence is, if you allow free speech, you allow free speech. It is not free speech if you are given a list of what you can or cannot say (without a REAL good reason, like advocating murder). That is NOT free speech.
As for school vouchers, that's interesting math, but not exactly how I'd envision it working. We pay X per student now for public schools. I say, let all schools compete for that X, including public schools. If the tuition is more, people pay the difference. We are paying for education, I'd prefer the money go to the schools that perform the best and little freedom work. It's served the US well so far.
83 - gonzo marx
John B, as for vouchers...the math is perfect...and what you argue for is theft form the local public school and those residents who pay into it besides the parents for the sake of an individual child
it's still theft of services
how about we instead make those local schools better, you can start by holding the local school Boards who assign the budget and screen the texts and curiculuum , accountable
as for the cae in point topic...who ever said that students had "free speech" in schools?
they are minors and in the care of the governmental school system...the Courts have ruled in both municipal and higher instances , that those kids have very limited rights
see: school searches, locker searches...urinalysis for athletes....much more
give a kid one of my favorite t-shirts that say "fuck censorship" on them....and see if he makes it through the day
your straw man doesn't hold John...and i applaud those who fight against ANY religion in the public school system
as i stated, plenty of time for that outside of school grounds...
unless you are going to allow equal time in church/parochial school
hey...how about evolution classes in sunday school if the kids want to do it?
puh-leeeze...
but, thanks for the reasonable discussion...even if we won't be able to disagree on the outcome
Excelsior!
84 - Screen Rant
CC,
Actually one that I read once and am reading again (because, to be perfectly honest it's WAY over my head) is "When Skeptics Ask" by Norman Geisler and Ron Brooks.
They use advanced (IMHO) philosophical and logical arguments to reach their conclusions.
Vic
85 - gonzo marx
Screen Rant sez...
*They use advanced (IMHO) philosophical and logical arguments to reach their conclusions.*
in other words...they bullshit
how do we know this kiddies?
because it CANNOT be either proven, nor disproven..it is a matter of Faith, by definition
and it would be a poorer world indeed if such could be found under the sterile eye of hte microscope
just a Thought
Excelsior!
86 - Screen Rant
According to gonzo:
"I think, therefore I am." = bullshit
Heh.
Vic
87 - RedTard
I don't understand how logical people can look at the same set of facts and come to such profoundly different conclusions. We've tried improving the current state run system by doubling the amount of real dollars we spend on education over the last 30 years and getting zero results.
How could vouchers perform any worse?
I know I'll lose my conservative club card, but maybe we could learn something from countries like Belgium. They use a voucher system with 70% of students attending private schools and perform better than US students all while spending significantly less than us.
Gonzo,
The real theft is the billions taken from all of us that is wasted on a subpar educational system. We spend an obscene amount for the mediocre results we get.
88 - Andy Marsh
gonzo - how is taking MY tax money and spending it where I want on my kids education theft of anything?
Taxes are theft if anything is around here!
If my local school system was screwing up the system and I was given a way to get my kid a better education why can't I take MY money and do with it as I please? My kid ain't taking up a seat...so it should cost the school that much less....no? Maybe if the school systems had more pressure on them to perform...you know like bringing in two cable companies...a little competition!
on that note, I live where I live because my taxes ain't too bad and the school district here is a good one. I shopped for my house based on THIS school district in Virgina Beach. but I support vouchers!
89 - Andy Marsh
never mind...I reread your deal up there...I'll just sit here and shut up now
90 - gonzo marx
see Andy...think twice and read carefully before ya Question yer sifu!!!
mwahahaAHAhahAHHAAahahAHAhahHAAHAHAhahahaaaa
did i just say that out loud?
ooops...
Excelsior!
91 - Clubhouse Cancer
I wasn't at all convinced by that book, although I'm impressed by the authors' attempt to justify their faith with logic. The logic is faulty, though, so the argument's a failure.
They rely on barely gussied-up creationism with the proposition that one should use "creation science" to assess the origins of the universe, and then after that the normal scientific procedures apply.
The authors lay out their logical argument in the back of the book, as I recall, step-by-step. See if it holds water without the creationism assumption. I don't think it does.
92 - Dave Nalle
full disclosure: my annual property tax is about $1200 a year, but my littel town has no water, sewer( well and spetic for me) or garbage pick up(haul your stuff to the dump), a volunteer fire department, and a 70 year old town constable in a 70's bronco ( county sheriff or even state trooper for 911 calls)
And admit it, Gonzo. Your taxes are underwritten by folks like my family whose modest summer house with a bit of shore frontage is hit for $12,000 in taxes every year.
Dave
93 - Dave Nalle
Oh, and Gonzo. If vouchers are unfair, here's an alternative. Let's just get rid of the public school system alltogether.
Dave
94 - Andy Marsh
I still like the idea of vouchers...what can I say...I'm a thief!
95 - gonzo marx
for #92...towns vary, in the town i live it goes by the assessed property value, so a big new house on the lake is worth more in the market than my house on 2 acres away from the lake...
this appears to be the case in much of the state, with the exceptions that Mark and i digressed with earlier(especially on the coast DownEast)
i take exception to the insinuation that this means "subsidized"...i live with less services, and unlike most folks from "away", snowbirds or vacationers with second homes in the area...i understand that if i wanted more services then my taxes woudl go up...such as the next town over from me...twice the tax rate per dollar of value..but they have water,sewer and garbage pick up...same school district
as for removing the public school system...an interesting Idea..i am very curious as to why our system works worse than it did 100 years ago
my suspicion is that it revolves around the formation s of elected school boards rathern than being run by the educators
but that Rant is for the proper Thread...
Excelsior!
96 - gonzo marx
for Vic...
nice try...it should read...
"according to gonzo - i Am, therefore i Think"
note the difference...
heh
Excelsior!
97 - zingzing
dave, don't say "modest" and "summer house with a bit of shore frontage" around here. it just makes people jealous. you can brag all you like, but "modest" just doesn't sit well. anyway, rich people should pay more taxes. taxes should hurt everyone equally... when i recently got a raise at work... god knows why... the raise negated itself because my taxes almost tripled! what's up with that? there must be some sort of mistake...
98 - Andy Marsh
I think it's the NEA's fault...but I'm anti union...
99 - Clubhouse Cancer
The school system of 100 years ago is just simply not the same as our system today, G, but if we must compare, then surely a system that welcomes every child, black or white, rich or poor, is by definition a "better" one, if the goal is educating young people.
100 - SonnyD
Clubhouse: Of course it's better when all children are welcome, but when those children graduate from high school and cannot read above a sixth grade level and cannot write an intelligent sentence or balance a checkbook, how can you state that the system is better?
Gonzo: I disagree strongly with your take on the voucher system. I don't even know where to start, there is so much I could say on that subject. I'll just suggest you reread RedTard #87
101 - Dave Nalle
dave, don't say "modest" and "summer house with a bit of shore frontage" around here. it just makes people jealous. you can brag all you like, but "modest" just doesn't sit well. anyway,
It's just a fact, Zing. It's modest in comparison to most of the houses in the area. It's smaller than the house I live in here in Texas and it's no huge mansion by any stretch of the imagination. Our nextdoor neighbor in Maine is the author Stuart Woods and his house is roughly the size of a football stadium. That makes our modest 3-2 a shack by comparison.
rich people should pay more taxes. taxes should hurt everyone equally
Rich people DO pay more taxes - enormously more. The bottom two quintiles pay essentially no taxes at all. The middle class pays at a real tax rate between 10 and 15% of income. The rich pay at a real tax rate of double that or more plus since they tend to consume more they pay way more in sales and consumption taxes.
... when i recently got a raise at work... god knows why... the raise negated itself because my taxes almost tripled! what's up with that? there must be some sort of mistake...
Welcome to the disincentive system of graduated taxes my friend. The harder you work, the more you earn, the more they take. I guess now you know from first hand experience that the rich pay more tax than the poor - though I think your 'triple' figure might be a wee bit of exaggeration.
Dave
102 - JP II
This entire line of argument is so far from reality, let me just clarify something for all of you on both sides of the debate:
Those of you who keep mentioning and apparently believe that mainstream groups or powers -- "separationists" or "liberals" or "activist judges" or the ACLU or any other group with any power at all -- are opposed to the "mention" of Christ, or the utterance of prayer, or proseletyzing by student groups, etc. on public school campuses -- you are all wrong.
That is not the case. That is not true.
The only thing "separationists" insist upon is that the school itself must in no official way engage in communicating, teaching, endorsing or indicating that a certain religion is correct.
OF COURSE social science teachers show examples of religious belief in their study of culture and history -- including Islam, AND INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY! That is teaching ABOUT religions, not teaching religion.
As for student groups, there are PLENTY of Christian student groups ALL OVER CAMPUSES in this country. In any school that allows clubs to form around students' own interests, Christian students are free to form Christian clubs. External Christian groups also often bring their club structures onto campus and invite students to join. Never heard of "Campus Life"? Never heard of "Youth for Christ"?
(But ohhhhh, imagine if a Satanic club was formed -- despite the above rantings of Screen Rant, NO WAY would most schools or communities allow that!)
And to the extent that students enjoy free speech of other kinds on a campus, OF COURSE they can pray aloud if they so choose, and YES THEY CAN proseletyze too, assuming they're in a situation where free speech generally is not considered disruptive to the learning environment. (for example, at lunchtime or during breaks, or sitting in the stands at a basketball game, or before or after school -- wherever a student is free to proseletyze their favorite football team or rock band or movie, they could also proseletyze other students about their religion!)
(And its ridiculous to cite the whole question of sandwich boards. But the simple fact is that if a campus allows any "protests" or "demonstrations" related to non-academic issues, it will allow such demonstrations from Christians as well. If it does NOT allow such demonstrations from others, then it doesn't have to allow them from Christians either.)
So STOP claiming that separationists like Michael Newdow are trying to revoke students' rights to free speech and freedom of religion.
That is false.
JP II
103 - gonzo marx
Clubhouse ...i DO agree that systemically much is improved in the EXACT matters you mention..i shoudl have been more clear...my point is/was that why is it then in a one room schoolhouse children graduated high school knowing calculus, latin,greek, world history, civics, and the english language so much better than what most college graduates do nowadays?
THAT is what i am speaking of, my maternal grandfather's education from HS was vastly superior to mine, and yet mine is almost as much better than what current graduates receive
i hope that helps explain...
SonnyD...it is not "my take" but an inexorable excercise in mathematics, plain and simple...if you think i am incorrect, please show me the math to dispute the Facts i have stated and the conclusion drawn...you know i am more than happy to admit when i am proven incorrect, but i have looked at this one (it having been an Issue here in Maine recently) and the plain math doesn't lie
so i stand by my Statement and Assesments concerning the "vouchers" that would steal from their neighbors
comment #101 sez...
*Our nextdoor neighbor in Maine is the author Stuart Woods and his house is roughly the size of a football stadium. That makes our modest 3-2 a shack by comparison.*
note the 3 bedroom, 2 bath..and the bemoaning of it being a "shack" in "comparison"
tell it to the veteran living in a refrigerator box...no sympathy, no jealousy either...
"i once wept because I had no good shoes, until I met a man who had no feet"
oh yes...and up here, those seasonal homes are called "camps" and are almost always much nicer than what the locals live in
vacation homes for folks from all over the country/world...their prices are set by what the market will bear, and taxes are assessed on that Value...every year or two folks from "away" who own those homes try and get tax exemptions because they are only used for part of the year
my take?...tough shit
Excelsior!
104 - SonnyD
Gonzo: I, too, have reworded the phrase, "I think, therefore, I am." I chose, "I am aware, therefore, I am." The word "think" has become so degraded that it no longer has any real meaning.
Thinking should involve a certain amount of effort, the gathering of ideas, weighing of facts, coming to an informed conclusion based on the results of that effort. Instead, the word is used in place of an emotional feeling based on god knows what. Maybe just the repetion of something that someone else said. Anyway, that is another failing of our public schools. There is no effort to teach logic or reasoning. Students are not taught to think.
105 - SonnyD
Sorry, repetion should have been repetition. I previewed and still missed it.
106 - Dave Nalle
We've never tried for a tax exemption, gonzo. And we have relatives who live up there year round who have nicer houses than we do. I'm perfectly willing to pay property taxes and not complain so long as I don't have to pay the ridiculous Maine income tax when we only spend part of the year there.
But I will say this the public school district where our house in Maine is located is much, much better than any public school in this part of Texas. We've actually considered moving up there year-round because the savings in private school tuition for two kids would more than cover the added tax expenses, but we tend to balk at the endless snow.
THAT is what i am speaking of, my maternal grandfather's education from HS was vastly superior to mine, and yet mine is almost as much better than what current graduates receive
Gonzo, I spent almost 20 years teaching history to kids who had graduated from Texas public schools. For most of them it was essentially their first encounter with US History because they had basically learned nothing at all in their high school social studies classes. From what others have told me the same holds true for most other areas of study as well. Unless their parents teach them at home in addition to school or they get into some sort of special school or accelerated program the school system is basically just warehousing them for 12 years.
Dave
107 - JP II
RE my last post (#102) -- John B's comment below is where he is correct.
QUOTE
John Bambenek
January 12, 2006
10:42 AM
Dave-
Schools most certainly are free speech zones. Sure you can't say anything you want in class, but you can in the halls, in the lunchrooms, outside, etc. You can form your own groups and leave them as you wish. I'm not saying they can stand up in class and do it, then they are disrupting class, but there is a lot more times and places in schools they can do what they want. If someone is doing it in a lunchroom, you can go somewhere else. If they have a group, you don't have to join. It strikes me as little different from your airport example.
I want to very clear on this. I'm not saying they should use class time when they should be studying and learning for something else. I'm talking about the ample time they are given outside the classroom in the school building.
--END QUOTE
I'm afraid Gonzo and Dave Nalle are wrong about this, if they think students are, or ought to be, constitutionally prohibited from proseletyzing at a school site during lunch. If a student is allowed free speech of any kind, he's allowed to proseletyze. The beautiful thing about free speech is that your kids are allowed to proseletyze just as loudly against those ideas, if they want.
It's not a government intrusion on your kids' rights if they hear about this stuff from other students in conversation! For cryin' out loud, guys.
And, reminding you, I am vehemently opposed to teachers leading students in the state-sponsored prayer "one nation, under god."
(I'm fine with teachers leading the pledge as it was originally written, before the House Un-American Activities Committee influenced it. And of course, anyone else can recite a pledge, with their pals or on their own, in any form they want.)
JP II
108 - gonzo marx
well sonnyD..let me just take a moment to point out that i never use the term "beleive" when speaking about my thoughts...
as for being able to "think" as you phrase it, and to also answer in part ScreenRant/Vic's snark about being employed...
the Answer to things of that nature are here
by profession, i am the foremost expert outside fo a few engineers in England who designed the system on the equipment found at the link...i not only repair it all to the component level(plus some other systems my company makes, but these are my specialty)...but when a telecomm engineer has problems or needs tech support/advice in using the stuff or figuring out anomolies...it is my phone that rings
i've been working on this stuff for just a bit over a year now, and in electronics for over 25 years off and on
yet, i don't even earn my age for this work, especially since i do not have a college degree
so...yes, i think
nuff said?
Excelsior!
109 - Screen Rant
"ScreenRant/Vic's snark about being employed"
Just trying to bring a bit of levity into the picture so you know I don't harbor any nastiness towards you gonzomeister. :-)
Vic
110 - Dave Nalle
Gonzo, you should hold out for more money. If your skills are really as you describe them they ought to be paying you about 1.5x your age at a minimum and be happy to get you for that. And what the hell difference does a college degree make? My wife is director of IT for a state government agency and doesn't have one. I have a friend who's an engineer with a high six figure salary and flunked out of college with a 0.04 GPA.
Well, that was off topic.
Back to JP's comment.
The government forces kids to go to school. They should not be forced into an environment where they are made uncomfortable or subjected to undesirable influences. There is no reason why prayer has to be anything but private and personal, and I don't object to that. But there's no justification for intrusive proselytizing. My personal experience with this was at my elder daughter's public elementary school where a group of kids at a talent show essentially held a prayer meeting as their 'talent'. It was totally unacceptable.
Dave
111 - SonnyD
Gonzo: I will ask you to do as I have many times seen you ask others to read the comment more carefully. I did not, in any way, imply that YOU were lacking in thinking ability. I found it interesting that you and I both have thought to reword the same phrase. And made a general statement that the word "think" has lost its meaning.
As for my opinion on the voucher debate, I seem to have gotten off the subject of this post. If this matter comes up as the subject of another post, however, I would be more than glad to give you my opinion on your mistaken reasoning.
112 - gonzo marx
to Vic...no worries, just elucidating a point for edification purposes
{8^P~~~~~~~~~~
to JP II...your points are Reasonable and your logic quite sound, i have no Argument against your position, and my own is just that...merely my own
until and unless the entire "Hail Satan"(and i only use it as an extreme example) bit is just as acceptable, then i think the entire bit about religions can be kept conversational with no problems...but active proselytizing should be discouraged by the system due to it being a government facility where students are required to attend...again, i think of it as a "establishment clause" issue as well as pure public safety...just me, and i Respect the Views expressed on the topic, even when i don't Agree with them...
as for the first paragraph in comment #110, i appreciate the Advice..you will have to take it that such is not currently an Option for various reasons...my division is made up of myself (the youngest of us at 44), and 5 true genius' who have been there longer than i have...at least 2 of whom could learn what i do and add it to what they specialize in if required...those two are retired ex-military techs who do this just for some extra cash
such is the state of the economy, that here what i am making plus my benefits are considered by many to be "good money"
nuff said?
Excelsior!
113 - Dave Nalle
I think we're on very much the same page here gonzo as far as the forced attendance being the main issue. Of course that goes hand in hand with the forced payment. Citizens shouldn't be forced to pay their money for facilities which are used for purposes which they would not approve of. It troubles me a great deal that one of our local elementary schools is essentially used as a church by a local congregation which is trying to save money to build a church. Admittedly they pay rent to use the school after hours, but it seems like a singularly inappropriate use of the space.
Dave
114 - SonnyD
Dave: Our county fairgrounds is tax supported, but the buildings are rented out year round for all sorts of purposes. It helps defray the cost of maintaining the facility and saves the tax payer money. How is a school any different if students are not present?
115 - JP II
Dave, I sympathize with you. But --
DAVE SAID: The government forces kids to go to school. They should not be forced into an environment where they are made uncomfortable or subjected to undesirable influences.
I agree with that -- but we must always walk a tightrope, in a society that holds free speech as necessary to enable debate and free decision making. I am, first, a free-speecher.
I'd say it's unreasonable to tell students that while on campus they may not talk about contraceptives to each other, and unreasonable to prohibit talking about death metal music, unreasonable to ban discussion of smoking or drugs, unreasonable to prevent them talking about Andy Warhol or Robert Mapplethorpe or Catcher In the Rye, unreasonable to deny them the right to talk about organizing protests against Republican policies - and for the same reason, I also say it's unreasonable to prohibit them talking to other students about their particular god.
DAVE SAID:> There is no reason why prayer has to be anything but private and personal, and I don't object to that.
I agree there's no reason, I agree it's best when its personal and private, I'm pretty sure that's what Jesus said too... but should the government insist that it MUST be private??
DAVE SAID: But there's no justification for intrusive proselytizing.
The justification to allow it is that to ban it you'd have to ban all speech.
DAVE SAID: My personal experience with this was at my elder daughter's public elementary school where a group of kids at a talent show essentially held a prayer meeting as their 'talent'. It was totally unacceptable.
I agree that's at least close to the line, or maybe over the line. But I have difficulty immediately defining HOW it has crossed the line. Maybe it's just offensive to me personally (which it is). A talent show is a quasi-official event at least. But if my son's band wanted to sing their anti-war lyrics uncensored at the talent show, then what right do I have to tell the Christians they can't spout their rhetoric too?
Free speech is difficult stuff. Clearly it would be bad-bad-bad if the principal or teacher opened the talent show with an endorsement of that particular Christian act -- "and kids, make sure you pay special attention to Dodie's group, you may find a special resonance in what they say." But if there are no speech restrictions on the other talent show acts (other than the usual anti-sex/drugs bias), then I would err on the side of allowing the speech by the Christians.
I'm offended by students (and their church leaders) who pull that kind of crap at talent shows. But honestly, my response if that happened at my kids school would be to encourage my kid to get out there and create a compelling talent show act, or a newsletter, or whatever, highlighting whatever it is they don't like about Christian organizations, leaders, religions, the faith -- whatever: the hypocrisy of their judgmental pronouncements, their greed, their funding of anti-poor politicians, their efforts to bend everyone to their will....
: )
116 - SonnyD
JP II: Do you make a habit of teaching your children that two wrongs made a right? I think I would rather tell them that I didn't think what was done in the talent show was appropriate and I would rather they didn't do anything like that.
117 - Alice
JPII: The following needs a disclaimer:
“I'm offended by students (and their church leaders) who pull that kind of crap at talent shows. But honestly, my response if that happened at my kids school would be to encourage my kid to get out there and create a compelling talent show act, or a newsletter, or whatever, highlighting whatever it is they don't like about Christian organizations, leaders, religions, the faith -- whatever: the hypocrisy of their judgmental pronouncements, their greed, their funding of anti-poor politicians, their efforts to bend everyone to their will.…”
DISCLAIMER: The pronouncement of “the hypocrisy of their judgmental pronouncements, their greed, their funding of anti-poor politicians, their efforts to bend everyone to their will.…” is not meant to be a judgmental pronouncement or hypocrisy.
That should help clarify what otherwise could be construed as judgmental and as such would be hypocritical.
118 - Dave Nalle
their funding of anti-poor politicians
Let's be fair, not all churches give their money to democrat causes.
Dave
119 - Screen Rant
" their funding of anti-poor politicians"
No, they just give directly TO the poor.
Vic
120 - Nancy
No, in my experience, they give all the money to themselves.
121 - Alice
"No, in my experience, they give all the money to themselves."
What is this experience you speak of?
Consider this...
"Save the Children Receives $60 Million Grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to Save Newborn Lives Globally"
122 - Andy Marsh
60 million...not bad...about the equivalent of me giving...say $50...he's the richest man on the planet! He's only worth around $50 billion.,,,isn't that like $50,000,000,000? $60 million is like 1% of 1% of $50 billion...so in reality, I think I gave more to the Salvation Army in front of the local K-Mart this Christmas season.
123 - The Fifth Dentist
You ought to spend more time reading and less time writing.
124 - Alice
"Being the richest man in the world has enabled Gates to create one of the world's largest charitable foundations. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has an endowment of more than $28 billion, with donations totaling more than $1 billion every year. "
$28 billion divided by $46 billion is about 60%.
Check it out...
125 - Screen Rant
"No, in my experience, they give all the money to themselves."
Then you've been going to the wrong churches.
BTW, here's part of what drives me nuts... religion in school = bad, but a teacher giving 14 and 15 year olds a homework assignment to research pornography on the internet? No problem.
Twisted friggin' priorities is what we've got and I don't care what you all say.
Vic