When do you think the average German realized that he or she was living under a fascist dictatorship?
I'm old enough to remember the specific events which mark the path by which the United States abandoned democracy, beginning with the Kennedy Assassination, traversing Vietnam, and ending with Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon. Ever since that time, as Steven C. Day writes in The Wages of Betrayal, "Americans have been sleepwalking through democracy." If there had been a desire on the part of the American people to hold on to the political rights and traditions established by those who stood up to the world's most powerful military for their benefit, Gerald Ford would have been impeached in Nixon's stead, and Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan would never have been elected, much less the Bushes.…
Article comments
26 - Irene Wagner
Awake, yes, and ready to send Child Protection Services out to remove my children because I'm teaching them a kind of "awakening" that is different from yours. What a brave, brave new world, Baritone! It's all part and parcel of ushering in a totalitarian society, can't you SEE that?
How would you explain your particular world view to children? In other words, how would Skippy the Skeptical Skunk say it? That's a rhetorical question by the way. I'm wondering if anyone else will pick up on the sad irony.
27 - Irene Wagner
It's called Online Slacktivism, Moonraven.
I'm off to a post a letter I've just written to the North Korean Embassy on behalf of a Christian prisoner who has been tortured for three years for "receiving Christianity." That's only one level above Slacktivism in terms of effectiveness, I realize that. And I've been writing letters to my Congressmen about abuses by the good old USA, too. And I'm campaigning, out in the streets, not just online, for Ron Paul.
I don't know whether or when it's going to come crashing down in the US, Moonraven. Maybe the best preparation of all is watching how the monks in Burma-Myanmar die.
28 - Clavos
Irene,
I agree with you that NO ONE should have the right to tell parents what they should teach their kids. I don't think anyone even has the right to tell parents HOW to raise their kids on any issue short of actual abuse (and I don't count spanking on the butt with the hand as abuse).
One of the aspects of our society that most disturbs me these days is the tendency of the elitists to try to impose their ideas on everyone else, especially when it's couched in terms of being "for your own good."
29 - moonraven
Clavos is now advocating beating children.
Why am I not surprised?
30 - Baritone
Irene,
You don't see the fundamentalist movement toward an American christian theocracy a movement toward totalitarianism?
I wouldn't think of coming between any parents and their children except to protect them from abuse. That doesn't mean I don't find it troubling that kids are force fed religion virtually from the moment they emerge from the womb.
As to how I would teach children my world view, it would be no less difficult than teaching them about a mythical all powerful being who resides somewhere in the ether who on the one hand loves us dearly, but who also is a violently jealous being who demands subjugation and absolute humility before him (I presume in your view god is a "him." If not here's begging your pardon.) in order to gain ascendancy to his holy realm.
There are a number of WEB sites and blogs devoted to life without god. Agnostic Mom may be one of the best as it concentrates on being a parent - raising children - without god.)
Irene, you are more of an alarmist than I am. I have written a great deal concerning what I perceive as the dangers posed by theocrats. You read a bit of Dawkins and come to the conclusion that wild eyed atheists are going to come into your home, steal your children and burn all the churches. Not even the Soviets pulled that off.
Dawkins', and also my own concerns lay with the fact, as we see it, that as I've stated, children are being force fed religion. Our children are not our possessions. We owe it to them to expose them to more than one world view. I would not be opposed to teaching children about religion, its history and its place in society. But there should also be an equally stringent source for apprising the little ones about a world without god and religion. When a child is ready, let him or her make an informed choice. That is rarely available to them as things stand.
B-tone
31 - Irene Wagner
Baritone: CERTAINLY I would see the "fundamentalist movement toward an American christian theocracy" as a movement toward totalitarianism.
I'd oppose it, and DO oppose it, on two counts. I believe in Jesus who warned some of his disciples who were trying to establish him as King of Israel, "My kingdom is not of this world." Secondly, the idea goes against the Constitutional principle of separation of church and state.
Incidentally, YOUR totalitarian plan of giving the State the authority to forbid parents to pass on religious faith as truth violates the principle of separation of church and state as well.
Clavos, I'm glad that point wasn't missed on you! You go on ahead and talk some sense into your crazy fellow atheist Baritone. You speak the same language, and I've run out of time for this coversation, as I have kids, coming home from school soon, whom I need to indoctrinate. Gotta make hay while the Sun of Freedom of Speech and Religious Liberty still shines!
32 - justoneman
Baronius..
All your comments prove is that your brother is a little whining wimp! The reality is that your brother is the real "zombie or "Stepford" worker"....
Maybe if he had some testosterone he would find himslef a real job or just stop whining and get back to work sorting mail...
More proof that liberalism is a mental disorder..your brother thinks he is a victim because he has no marketable skills or no drive to improve his own situation...he sounds like some of the New Orleans mongrels too dumb and stupid to get out of town...
JOM
33 - Baritone
You know Irene, I'm not too sure where or when I said anything about a "plan" of any kind. I profered my opinion against indoctrinating children with religion. Your accusation regarding any "plan" I may have for having the state usurp parental rights is made up out of whole cloth, or perhaps a shredded remnant.
Considering your obvious religious zeal, no doubt you will in fact further your children's religious indoctrination upon their arrival. A prayer before dinner would fall under that category.
As to your suggestion that Clavos take it upon his godless self to set me straight, I would assume that he has more pressing matters at hand than realigning my twisted sensibilities.
B-tone
34 - Baritone
JOM
First of all, you're just full of shit. You obviously didn't comprehend anything I wrote and you're offering opinions without any knowledge whatsoever.
I never said anything about my brother considering himself as a victim. He was simply making an observation that I chose to expand on. Also, my brother is not a liberal. He is a loyal Bushie, much to my chagrin. I won't go further with this as you don't understand his situation, and it's not really important here, and in the end, it's none of your damn business.
The most odious part of your diatribe is your reference to "New Orleans mongrels." Your hatred, condescension and racism are there for all to see.
You are indeed just one obnoxious and stupid man.
B-tone
35 - Dave Nalle
The criminalization of the practice of teaching one's children about God sounds fairly totalitarian to me.
My parents were agnostic/atheists. They sent me to Sunday school when I was 8. That pretty much cured me of any inclination to be religious.
Dave
36 - justoneman
Baritone...rather than defend your comments you change the facts and attack...I know its hard for you to undertand things like office security and policies and procedures...
I guess the only thing that you have to think about is which side of the truck to hold on to as you pick up garbage pails...
"racism" why is calling people who ignored all warnings racists...gee what the fuck is your problem,,,
JOM
37 - Irene Wagner
Dave Nalle, Eight year olds get their attitudes about religion from their parents at home, or from other adults who are VERY important to them. Your atheistic/agnostic parents had more of an impact on you than Sunday School did. And when my kids walk through that door, how I treat them, and what they see me investing my life in (as long as I get off this dang thread before then) will have more of an impact on how they feel about following Christ than any Sunday school teacher or public school teacher with an atheistic agenda (a blessedly small minority) ever could.
Since age 5, my children have been enrolled in Public School (that's the opposite of private school, to clarify for any Europeans who might be reading), where they've learned to get along with, work with, and respect other children despite differences in faith, skin color, socio-economic status, etc, and hopefully, their atheistic/agnostic friends are learning to get along with, work with, and respect Christians like my kids.
Baritone, if government intervention in the instruction of children vis a vis faith is limited to the establishment of schools where such interfaith tolerance and respect is promoted, I shall consider my vigilance in the matter to have been well-rewarded.
38 - Baritone
JOM,
First, just as a reminder, I'm NOT Baronius.
Second, What facts did I change? Your the one who initiated the "attack."
Again, your use of the word "mongrels" has a racist ring to it, wouldn't you say?
Just what were the thousands of people who had no cars or the financial means to get out of the city by other conveyences supposed to do? Start walking? Many of them were told that if they made their way to the Dome or the convention center that there would be transport in the form of either city and/or public school buses to take them out of the city. None of that ever happened. The buses sat, eventually under water.
Do you have any grasp of the logistics involved in getting masses of people out of a large city?
You must be a mind reader, though. I did in fact work from the back of a packer (garbage truck to the uninitiated) many years ago while working in a state park. I also shoveled gravel and cleaned pit toilets and cut about five thousand miles of grass. Of course a great American hero such as yourself would never stoop to such filthy, menial tasks. That's what the mongrels are for, right?
B-tone
39 - Cindy D
Ruvy,
It took apart Judaism as well, it took apart astrology too. I thought only the astrologers could have missed the point.
Regardless of my lack of belief in any of them (religions or astrology), it did it all illegitimately.
40 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"It took apart Judaism as well, it took apart astrology too."
It tried to take apart Judaism. Most of their comments only showed their ignorance.
"it did it all illegitimately."
And now we get back to the point about the skunk warning you about the dam upstream. Unfortunately, they have solid points about the makeup of the central banking system and how it operates - and who it benefits. No matter how "illegitimate" their methods seem, they seem to have hit upon reality in a very clear way.
41 - Dr Dreadful
Zeitgeist took apart neither Christianity, not Judaism, nor astrology.
Astrology, in particular, does quite a good job of taking itself apart. It doesn't need any help.
And as for the religion part, pointing out similarities between ancient belief systems is hardly proof that they're all copies of one another - any more than koalas and bears are even remotely related, even though they look superficially alike.
Particularly if you make most of the 'similarities' up.
42 - Dr Dreadful
And on the subject of the banking system, an interesting and somewhat troubling interview with Greenspan on the BBC News website yesterday. Don't know about any of you guys, but I'm moving to Vanuatu to grow taro...
43 - Silver Surfer
And to learn the graceful art of rugby from some very skilled (and very tough) Pacific islanders ...
Doc, you'd probably look great with cauliflower ears and a broken nose.
44 - Dr Dreadful
If they're so skilled how come they didn't qualify for the Worlds?
I think I'll keep my nose intact (huge as it is) and the only vegetable I want my ears to resemble in any way is the artichoke...!
I played rugby in high school once (they made me, it was the house championship and they didn't have enough boys to make up a team). Never again. I was assigned the job of grunge-half (or some equally suicidal position), which involved having my arm ripped from its socket in the Stygian depths of repeated scrums and rucks (which, this being high school, occurred about every 8 seconds) whilst clutching the waistband of one of my classmates' shorts. This, again, being high school, the final score after 80 minutes of utter futility and mud was 3-0 (drop goal from directly under the posts (actually, the two piles of bibs - the groundsman had taken down the posts and hidden them) since no bugger could kick straight with a misshapen ball) Additional pain was inflicted by the circumstance of most of the school's first XV being in my house, which meant they shoved much harder than I could and left me behind. If you've ever started in the front row of a scrum and ended up at the back you'll know how nasty that can be.
Fortunately, we lost and I didn't have to play again.
45 - Cindy D
Dr Dreadful,
Yes, I agree. I was being sloppy. It actually took apart nothing.
Rephrased: If it took apart Christianity, then it took apart Judaism and Astrology as well.
46 - Baritone
Somebody must have picked up and reassembled all the pieces, because, sadly, all of them are still around and kicking.
47 - Lee Richards
IMO parents have a responsibility to teach their children those things which will help the children become successful, personally happy, and productive citizens of a free society.
If, to the parents, that means religious training when the children are young, then that's their right and responsibility.
That means the parents have a responsibility to thoroughly comprehend the literature, doctrines, history, and reliability of the religion they're teaching. It's not enough to blindly accept; they must have rational knowledge to pass on, or they are shirking responsibility.
Along with that, I believe it's vital that children--at an appropriate age--should be taught to think for themselves. They are individuals, not parental clones.
As they grow up, they are entitled to form their own values and follow their own paths of faith. If they are indoctrinated with only one point of view or "truth", they are being done a diservice.
In high school or college they will discover alternative belief systems for themselves. They will likely be confronted with the inconsistencies, fallacies, and illogic which do exist in every religion. At that point, they will start questioning what they've been taught. Some will continue to believe, some will give up religion altogether and some will start thinking of their parents as ignorant.
It IS child abuse to frighten children into accepting a parent's beliefs.
48 - Cindy D
Baritone,
Would I have to pay you a royalty if I used this as a standard reply to every post JOM makes?
"JOM-First of all, you're just full of shit. You obviously didn't comprehend anything I wrote and you're offering opinions without any knowledge whatsoever."
49 - Baritone
Cindy,
Royalties would be nice, but what the heck. Knock yourself out. Go for it. Use it whenever you see fit. Just occasionally acknowledge your source.
B-tone
50 - Irene Wagner
I've EXCEEDINGLY BAD NEWS FOR commenter #47! Lee Richards details for us the prerequisites for parents who wish to instruct their children in the faith.
...the parents have a responsibility to thoroughly comprehend the literature, doctrines, history, and reliability of the religion they're teaching. It's not enough to blindly accept; they must have rational knowledge to pass on, or they are shirking responsibility.
How very generous of you, Mr. Richards, to assume such a high level of erudition for a group whom atheists usually describe as not only willfully blind and ignorant, but stupid!
The fact is, literacy is NOT a requirement for becoming a friend of Jesus Christ. The only thing necessary is a heart that is truly sorry, and a willingness to look to God for help in turning around. Jesus Christ is just as pleased to grant "life more abundantly" to folks on the OTHER SIDE of the Bell Curve as he is to give it to the scholars you describe. I'm not ashamed to say your requirement isn't even REMOTELY reasonable for a large segment of the Christian population.
A pretty good Biblical case can be made for the fact that God hears the heartfelt "I'm Sorry" prayers of anyone, even if they don't know Jesus yet--I'll ask for a "pass" on your requirement for these, too, who are currently instructing their children in the ways God gave to all mankind before the dispersion at Babel.
You BRIGHTS however, will have no intellectual barriers to holding yourselves to the SAME STRINGENT REQUIREMENTS before slapping the nauseous green 'MR.YUCK' warning sticker on ALL religions for your kids.
Hoo boy. Start telling all the atheists you know who are not "Child-Free" they'd better start reading: the Early Church Fathers, the ENTIRE Bible--including the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and all its translations into modern languages, a complete survey of Church history from all possible theological perspectives. Of course, you'll need to have not only thoroughly studied BUT ALSO refuted ALL the arguments of not just one but ALL apologists.
Oh, dear, dear, the BITTER irony. It looks like before reproducing you'll all have to become Doctors of Divinity. That's yet ANOTHER phd for some of you! Ivy League Colleges still offer these--and of course, you'll want your RATIONAL knowledge of Christianity to come from the VERY best school.
But wait! It gets even worse! Atheists believe ALL religions are hocus pocus! You'll have to get as much training as a Jewish rabbi, a Buddhist monk, a Native American shaman, a Muslim imam....
51 - Lee Richards
Irene:
Or you could just start with biblical literacy, some common sense, a smattering of comparative religions and, oh yes, a real desire to teach rather than indoctrinate.
52 - Irene Wagner
Yes, Lee, an atheist COULD start with biblical literacy, some common sense, a smattering of comparative religions.
I'll eat my hat, though, if I hear Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennet or Sam Harris initiating their children into the glories of godlessness with a real desire to teach rather than indoctrinate. I think you'd be disappointed in them if they did! After all, New Atheists such as yourself certainly appear to be adopting a fairly doctrinaire style under the tutelage of these men.
53 - Irene Wagner
Dr. Dreadful. I read the link about. No surprise really. First Greenspan endorsed the tax cuts Bush proposed so that a divided congress would accept them in 2001. Although Greenspan was the head of the 'fed, in charge of juggling inflation, the deficit, and US fiat money, Bush's plans to increase spending came as a complete surprise! He NEVER would have encouraged Congress to cut taxes had he known. Well, I'm from Missouri!
But now that the end of the 2nd Bush stretch of the Bush Clinton Bush Clinton cycle is coming to an end, and Hillary has "the annointing," guess who's trotting around the globe promoting the "sounder economic policies of Clinton?"
NONE of the elite are partisan. That's why I find the "left" vs. "right" squabbles on this site so counterproductive and distracting.
54 - Baritone
Irene,
I doubt seriously that you know anything about Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett or Harris. You simply assume that if they reject god, that they have no conscience or humanity. You see them as no more than the equivalent of jack booted Nazis. You understand nothing about atheists or atheism.
There is absolutely no need for any atheist to know anything about any particular religion. All one has to know is that the existence of god is at most, unlikely; religion, ludicrous. All twists, turns and machinations of the various religions do nothing to raise the likelihood of god.
B-tone
55 - Irene Wagner
Baritone, you are at a disadvantage if you haven't read Lee Richards' #47, and my reply to him in #50. Once you read them and realize that I was only holding atheist parents to the same standard Lee Richards was holding Christian parents, you'll realize you were making a few assumptions yourself.
By the way, I used to think Christopher Hitchens was the wittiest contributor to Vanity Fair magazine. The editors got tired of his slavish devotion to Bush's Iraq War (his utter disdain for the man himself notwithstanding) about the same time I did.
56 - STM
Baritone: "Somebody must have picked up and reassembled all the pieces, because, sadly, all of them are still around and kicking."
Are you talking about Cindy's mini treatise on world religions, or Doc's body parts after the rugby game?