All the Democrats have to do is sit back and watch as Senators destroy American policy for the next twenty years. This morning, Senators Arlen Specter (R-PA) and John Warner (R-VA) had offered two of five competing resolutions on how to stop the president from sending additional troops to Iraq.
Late this afternoon, Specter and Warner, stepping out of a Las Vagas Wedding Parlour, announced they had wed their two resolutions. Of course they support our troops. Of course they support the president. They just think the troops and the president don't a have a clue what to do.
Not to be outdone, President-I-Hope-To-Be-Elected Barak Obama (D-IL) last night actually set a firm date by which he wants U.S. forces out of Iraq. According to a source with no credibility whatsoever, Obama threw darts at a bulletin board and came up with March 31, 2008.
What's so frustrating is that Bush has put people, who are alleged to have brains instead of straw in their heads, in an intolerable position. Lying about starting the war, castrating our efforts in Afghanistan, not sending in enough troops in the beginning, having no concept or plan to win the peace, being led around by the diplomatic nose by Iran, totally failing to understand the lengths to which some Shiites and Sunnis will act against their own best interests — if that's not enough for Impeachment and Conviction, it should be.
But what liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and Lithuanians seem to continually forget is the effect an American pullout would have on our reputation around the world. And, as someone used to say, make no mistake about it, we ain't gonna win this war in 2008, which means we're going to have the moral equivalent of helicopters rescuing the last Americans from Hanoi, totally destroying any Nixon/Kissinger myth that we'd achieved peace with honor.
Osama bin Laden was encouraging the U.S. to invade Iraq before the invasion. Wouldn't you think an intelligent person would ask why? Like taking pressure off the Afghanistan/Pakistan border? Trapping the Americans in a tribal quagmire created by Europe after World War I and never resolved? Creating a single focal point for the recruitment and training of more lunatic Arabs who'd give up this life for 17 virgins?
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Dave Nalle
By all accounts, Gen. Petraeus really knows what he's doing when dealing with terrorists and insurgents. He wrote or rewrote the book on counterinsurgency tactics. He might do well in the next couple of months with the terrorists reportedly already in a state of disarray and popular sympathies in Iraq very much against them.
BTW, what have you got against Karen Hughes? She seems like a nice, relatively competent person.
Dave
2 - SHARK
We already blew it.
Cut our losses.
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PS: It's astonishing that you would [rightly] equate Iraq with Vietnam, and then conclude that we must stay.
It's hypocritical and contradictory.
You might wanna go back and imagine this is say, 1964 or so:
Think.
Ponder.
Try again.
3 - SHARK
re: "America Becomes the World's Joke"
I'm so tired of hearing this childish, irrational appeal to cheap emotions.
In reality, you're saying we'll gladly sacrifice 3000+ Americans to save face on the international playground.
This is such a bullshit point. It's another media/pundit ABSTRACTION that is meaningless in the larger scheme of things.
AND...
1) America became the "world's joke" when we re-elected George Bush.
2) We've been the "world's joke" before; many times. But people forget jokes as often as they forget punch lines.
3) Who cares what "the world" thinks of us?
4) And if one does care, here's a way to restore a HUGE amount of American credibility among the international community: impeach Bush, send his entire administration staff to Guantanamo, and 'legally' torture them by playing Kanye West CDs at 4,000 decibels while flushing Bibles down their toilets.
4 - Bliffle
Karen Hughes? What a two-faced twerp! After 911 she gives a belligerent speech telling every US citizen they have to stick to their jobs and work hard to defeat terrorism, then she quits HER job because she prefers Texas to DC! Apparently, the DC private schools for her over-privileged sprat are not good enough! Everything she's done since then demonstrates her ignorance and arrogance.
She's a political appointee who's done nothing to earn her luxurious pay.
5 - troll
come up with a alternative energy approach allowing the developing countries of the world access and you won't have to worry a whole lot about reputation
6 - Bliffle
Mark is channeling Nixon, methinks.
Next, from beyond the grave comes the "secret plan" for "peace with honor".
Mark is not a crook.
7 - troll
Nixon was a bourbon drinker wasn't he - ?
8 - Nancy
Shark's got it right, IMO. No more American blood for Bush's ego & Cheney's ambitions. Appealing to our collective macho pride over our macho-shithead military rep is cheap Bush-shit Rovian tactics. Bush/Cheney have already proven they don't care how many Americans die as long as they (B/C) achieve their goals - which have NOTHING in them for the common people of the US or anywhere else. They're just cannon fodder for BushCo.
9 - Bliffle
If Mark wants truth he should switch to wine.
10 - Lee Richards
Here's what I have against Karen Hughes: she is largely responsible for creating the Bush mythology--"compassionate conservative", "not a nation-builder", "a uniter, not a divider" and all the rest of the lies and spin that helped lead too many down the garden path. She is guilty of putting her personal ambition, politics and party ahead of principles, the American people and patriotism, to the detriment of the country and world.
What to do with the Middle East? A land war in any part of Asia is doomed to fail, and our convential forces--far from home--can have only very limited and temporary success against guerilla-style fighters defending their home territories. My suggestion is to start fighting their fanatical religious views and inherently violent culture in Iraq and throughout the Middle East by offering them something new to think about--western ideas and popular culture. Let's take 10% of the billions lost there, according to auditors, by waste and graft and spend it on CDs and DVDs and players for every family. Let's give them some Elvis, Beatles, 50s & 60s rock 'n roll, Doobie Brothers, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, jazz, blues, Gershwin--you name it. (They're probably not ready for metal, disco, or rap yet). Let's give them some DVDs of the best films and TV shows of the last 30 years, that have the power to touch human feelings, and make people think. Let's saturate their medieval thinking with something different--plant some seeds of humanity and weed out their cultism and hatred. Seriously, unless we can get some fresh ideas and modern outlook into that region with a CULTURAL revolution, we're just going to be fighting the same battles there and world-wide forever. Negative propaganda is a powerful tool; why not try some positive propaganda? It might work better--and be safer and cheaper-- than bombs and bullets. Honestly, do we have anything to lose?
11 - Nancy
Part of the problem IS the perceived American culture - unfortunately, it's the American trash that gets exported: the MTV videos, the bottom-feeding TV shows like Sex & The City, the violent & sex-ridden movies, etc. not to mention the incessant & pervasive advertising & "product placement", which is what they object to, & I don't blame them because I loathe it, too. Turn on the TV and on just about any channel except Sesame Street all there is is sex & violence, weapons, crime, & explosions. Everybody is thin, beautiful - and RICH. All the characters wear nice clothes, live in nice houses, & have loads of "Things" including fast expensive cars. Compared with the standard of living of most of the rest of the world, is it any wonder they think we're all pigs? TV & movies portray us all as nothing but. Watch TV with a judicious eye & tell me the image you get of the average American is not one of someone well-off, spoiled, materialistic, selfish, hedonistic, violent,& no mental or spiritual qualities to speak of - or someone who's a total idiot. We've already exported American culture worldwide, thanks to our ever-greedy multinational corporations & MSM "entertainment" channels. So no one ever sees the good side of Americans, or that most of us do NOT wear designer dresses & Manolo Blahnick 6" high heels, weigh 110 lbs, & have exciting high-paid jobs & fast cars, or live in McMansions & carry guns under our jackets all the time.
12 - Mark Schannon
Bliffle, I'm shocked that you're shocked. Channeling Nixon--good one. And I do have a secret plan but I'm not sharing.
Shark, you missed part of what I was saying, which isn't unusual for you. Have you ever just had a conversation with someone, on a civil basis, without letting your 13 year-old's testosterone get the better of you?
RE: Vietnam, just as there are similarities with Vietnam, there's a huge difference. Everyone in the world except some Americans knew Viet Nam was a joke/nightmare; With Iraq, there really are terrorists out there who want your balls for breakfast. Define strategically what it means to cut our losses, and then let's look at it. If what you mean is you're tired of war, then your argument holds little weight.
But that would require some thought, and I haven't seen much of that from you.
Oh and Bliffle--I drink lots of wine, so there --but me heart's in the old country.
Nancy, did it sound like I was talking bullshit macho pride as the reason for not just packing up? It's not a matter of pride, it's a matter of power and influence--and if you don't think those are important in the world today...we're on different ones, I fear. I do agree with you that America's marketing of itself through the media is a big part of the problem.
Dave, Petraeus does seem better than most of the baloney sandwiches we've sent over there, and I hope he can figure out a way to win this thing. I was referring to people, such as the other one's commenting, who are so pissed at Bush for involving us in this mess (and I share their anger) that they can't see beyond that.
As for Hughes, any friend of Bushes ain't no friend of mine...well, no, it's just that she has no qualifications or expertise for her new role. I didn't attack her but the notion that she has the slightest knowledge of public diplomacy. She certainly was a political wizard with Busher.
Actually, Lee does a good job of explaining my disenchantment with the Hughes announcement. I don't think it's going to do anything in the short run, but it's a better long-term approach than we've ever taken.
Phew. For Bliffle,
In Vino Veritas
13 - Lee Richards
Then start with Sesame Street; begin somewhere, anywhere to bring them out of the grasp of perverted religious, educational, social and political systems, into a cultural marketplace where things like this CAN be discussed and debated.
14 - Nancy
first we'd have to bar or restrict negative trash from being beamed out, & that won't happen.
15 - Lee Richards
Then, Nancy, what WILL happen, I'm afraid, is multiple 9-11s in the West for years to come. To keep doing the same thing that doesn't have a chance of working is Bushism at its finest.
16 - dee
Mark - what are you waiting for, go sign up at your local recruitment office and go over to Iraq and get blown up. Give me a break with your "I'm sorry we can't leave Iraq" bullshit. Our presence their MAKES IT WORSE so I opine, we have to leave, and we have to leave right now. If you didn't support the war in the beginning as you claim, then you can't support staying there a day longer and supporting a war that you didn't support in the beginning. We're screwed either way because what he have done is install a pro-Iranian regime. Was that our goal? To install a regime that is closer to our arch enemy. What a joke this war is. What a disaster. Circumstances are similar to WWII, Germany is Iran, and Iraq will soon be Austria Hungary, get ready for the real war that is coming soon.
17 - Baronius
Mark, there's so much in this article that I disagree with. But your conclusion is sound. In any war, you fight to win or you don't fight at all.
I'm not surprised that Specter is making a politically expedient, dumb move. Warner surprises me.
18 - Mark Schannon
Baronius, even I don't agree with me. I hate that position, but merge diplomacy and foreign affairs with outrage and you create a worse disaster.
Impeach & convict Bush -- the new prez could pull us out in 5 minutes. But given the realities on the ground -- not what we want, but what is -- we're choosing between two evils.
That's what makes this so awful. It's easy to see the world as simply as Shark, Dee, and Bliffle. But they're making a tragic logical error: You have a choice -- you know the consequences of one option and you don't like them so you select the other. That's not what I'd call real smart. What are consequences of the second option? Which are worse in all their manifestations? But that requires too much thought and controlling anger, which some people are incapable of.
In Jameson Veritas
19 - Martin Lav
There's only one way out of this mess IMO
IMPEACH BUSHCO.
Apologize to the world and ask for their help and support.
20 - Clavos
Apologize to the world and ask for their help and support.
Good one, martin!
Funniest line I've seen on these threads in a long time!
21 - Martin Lav
I know it sounds oh so.....pacifying liberal... but BUSH 1 succeeded quite well with IRAQ 1 and I think even the ISG recommended this course.
1. Impeach BushCo.
2. Create a true coalition
3. Engage the Iranians
4. Increase Troops Dramatically
22 - Bliffle
BushCo is now playing the hand of a bad bluffer, pushing all his own chips into the pot and begging to borrow from other people. He cannot call because he has a busted hand, he cannot check because his play is premised on a bluff, so he must try to raise the pot to avoid being called. But it's hopeless since the twitches and sweating underneath his bullying attitude belie the fake boldness he tries to bludgeon the other players with. He is lost, probably will be hounded from office and scorned in public life, like Nixon. Hopefully, Cheney will disappear with him, just like Agnew.
Don't bet your personal welfare on Bushes continuing ability to bluff. He's no better at bluffing than he was at running an oil company.
Don't bet the nations welfare on Bushes ability to bluff. Just because he fooled us gullible, hopeful Americans for a few months doesn't mean he can fool anyone else.
23 - Bliffle
Mark: put down that glass of Kool-aid and have a nice glass of Bandol instead. It'll clear your head.
This is uproarious: "Dave, Petraeus does seem better than most of the baloney sandwiches we've sent over there, and I hope he can figure out a way to win this thing."
Petraeus has been in charge of training the Iraqi Military for a couple years, and now they've become even better at bombing Iraqi hospitals, impersonating soldiers with stolen US uniforms, and killing US soldiers. In no way has he developed a competent loyal Iraqi corps.
Are you sufficiently deluded by unwarranted hope that you are ready to put your money on this horse? I assert that your desperate hope is engendered by the usual Bushco method of repetitive lies. What accomplishment of Petraeus can you point to? What famous battle?
This is the same General who wrote the "C.I." book and said it will take 120,000 troops to pacify Baghdad and vietnamese the government there. Now, apparently for a 4th star and improved retirement benefit, he has bowed to the Bush-mandated 20,000 to be achieved only by extending service stays.
If Petraeus is the Moses to lead us out of this desert why wasn't he put in charge 3 years ago? Why not 4 years ago? Why was he passed up then? Was it his disagreeable estimate of 120,000 troops? Did he get "Shinsekied"?
Do you think a General who meekly accepted the imperative of a bunch of untrained civilians (proven failures) to cut his requirements by 80% is brave enough to standup to Shiite and Sunni insurgents?
If Petraeus had held his ground against BushCo don't you think he would already have been Shinsekied?
Looks to me like just another BushCo opportunist gettin' a battlefield promotion while the gettin's good.
24 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Mark,
Your enemy is not Iraq - and it never was. Your enemy is Saudi Arabia, and the network of terror it has spawned - using the money you spend to fill up your car with gasoline.
The answer is not to sit in Iraq for ever and ever. Pull out of Sunni-land and let the bastards stew in their own juice, nuke Riyadh and occupy Saudi oil fields.
Then, ditch Bush, Cheney and any other bastard from the CFR you want, shoot the assholes, and get on with the business of speaking softly and beating the shit out of everybody with your big nuclear stick.
Follow my strategy and you'll have the Persians shitting in their pants, the Russians thinking very carefully about whether they really want Moscow and St. Petersburg to be nuclear glass, and the Chinese asking if they can buy any more dollars from you.
You want to be a great power, then sometimes you have to act like a great power and be a brutal, murderous double-crossing son of a bitch - just like your government has been to us for the last 35 years.
Otherwise kids, hang up your balls and let the Chinks run the world... They can't wait.
25 - SHARK
Schannon: "Shark, you missed part of what I was saying, which isn't unusual for you. Have you ever just had a conversation with someone, on a civil basis, without letting your 13 year-old's testosterone get the better of you?"
As usual, your reaction to my reaction is an overreaction. I didn't insult you;
I made a very valid point (but you missed part of what I was saying):
SHARK: "it's astonishing that you would [rightly] equate Iraq with Vietnam, and then conclude that we must stay. Imagine it's 1964..."
Here's some data to ponder about VIETNAM:
1961-1965
American Troops Killed In action = 1,864
American troops in Vietnam = 26,500
BY END OF WAR
American troops KIA = 58,169
American troops in Vietnam = 440,000
Geopolitical Result = NADA, Nothing, zip, zilch, doodly-squat
Had we left in 1964, we could have SAVED some 57,000 AMERICAN LIVES.
They died for nothing -- except maybe for a few Presidents to avoid becoming "the World's Joke".
And Schannon, AT THE TIME, millions of people were saying the same shit you're saying here.
They were wrong then.
You are wrong now.
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My second point, said without any "13 year old testosterone", was this:
"..In reality, you're saying we'll gladly sacrifice 3000+ Americans to save face on the international playground. This is such a bullshit point. It's another media/pundit ABSTRACTION that is meaningless in the larger scheme of things..."
IE. "Saving face" on the international stage -- especially at the cost of American lives -- is a ridiculous, meaningless ABSTRACTION.
Comprende, comrade?
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Schannon, I'm also implicitly making the point that you should use yer head once in a while, Question The Status Quo, try not to replay shit you heard on TV or read in the news.
Try, every now and then, to think some original thoughts.
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