There is a massive failure of leadership in the U.S. and U.K. When our people die, what we get from blowhards Bush and Blair is nothing but therapy, about how the terrorists hate our freedoms, and that we will stand up to them and win, because ours are the values of life and hope, and theirs are the values of death and destruction.
What utter bullshit. The terrorists have an agenda. It has absolutely sweet blow-all to do with hating our values or our freedom. Give me a break. They want us out of the Middle-East. They want Israel to stop giving Palestine a hard time. They don't like the royal Saudis ripping off the oil there and living high on it. That's their fucking agenda.
Yet, do our leaders address it? No. They start a goddam war with Iraq, for chrissake. Of all the dumb things in the whole wide fucking world. Like Howard Dean said years ago, the war in Iraq hasn't made us safer. It's made life more dangerous for us, as London knows now. They bombed the Madrid subway, and Spain got out of Iraq. End of story. Spain's new government addressed the terrorists' agenda, and now their people can sleep safely.
But our leaders are the #1 boneheads on earth. What war on terror? We can't find them to make war on them. What can we do? I'll tell you what we can do. I may be a powerless asshole, but I have half a brain, unlike Bush and Blair, who have snot for brains on a sunny day, and shit for brains when the chips are down. Here's what we can do:
1. Get the hell out of Iraq. It's their country. We got rid of Saddam. Let them hang him, let them have a civil war, let them have a Shiite government, let them ban miniskirts or whatever the fuck they want to do. It's none of our business. As long as they sell us oil, let them fuck up their destiny or fulfill it as they see fit. Iraq for the Iraqis, and let's leave them to it.
2. Tell Israel to make peace with Palestine, or they can say goodbye to our gazillion dollars of aid every year. Very simple. You want our money, you make peace.
3. Give interest-free loans to all Palestinian people who have a business or want to start one. Give them outright money to build schools and universities. Give them all the money they need to have a running country in 5 years time.
4. Buy up all the goddam nukes in Russia before some poor Russian soldier sells one of them to a terrorist.
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Georgio
I could not have said it any better..Great job...what you have said is just plain common sense,..opps ...we have none left..
2 - Silas Kain
Well, this is an interesting post. I have a feeling my liberal friends will have a stroke and my conservative friends will have an aneurism, so here goes:
1. Get the hell out of Iraq...
Too late. We went in, we broke it. It's up to us to set things right. We're giving them a chance at real freedom and self governance. If they blow it after we leave, then that becomes their problem.
2. Tell Israel to make peace with Palestine...
Amen. Tell Israel to get back to the bargaining table and tell the Palestinians the same. Threaten economies, start embargoes, do what it takes. There's no reason for this centuries old war to continue. It's time all sides came to terms with the fact that there is such a thing as peaceful co-existence. Oh, and make Jerusalem a U.N. Protectorate out of EVERYONE's grasp.
3. Give interest-free loans to all Palestinian people who have a business..
Only under certain conditions and their Arab cousins have to match the funds $2 for every $1 given by the West.
4. Buy up all the goddam nukes in Russia...
I don't agree. We shouldn't have to use blodd money to pay for blood money.
5. Put metal detectors at every subway entrance in New York City...
Agreed. Metal detectors everywhere and a National ID card.
6. Spend gazillions on spy operations to infiltrate every Muslim organization...
Better yet stop the money from going to them, period.
7. Endow all Arab universities with political chairs that teach Western political ideas.
Make tht reciprocal. We should learn their customs and understand what has caused them to evolve the way that have. Understanding on both sides is better than forced indoctrination into Western culture.
8. Translate Western literature and political books into Arabic...
Read above.
9. Give money to Al-Jazeera to have them do their broadcasts in English...
Better yet have the Saudi royal family throw in the cash.
10. Do something about Saudi-Arabia. That's the country we should've invaded instead of Iraq. That's where the 9/11 hijackers came from. That's where Bin-Laden comes from. The Saudis are our enemies...
I can't argue that point. The Saudi Royal Family is as corrupt as they get.
11. Stop, stop working for Osama Bin-Laden...
Can I have some of what you're smoking?
12. And for chrissake, stop saying the terrorists hate our freedom...
They DO hate our freedom. They hate our culture, they hate our "hedonism". They are jealous and they need a cause to rally the troops and consoliate their power base.
3 - Marc
"They bombed the Madrid subway, and Spain got out of Iraq. End of story. Spain's new government addressed the terrorists' agenda, and now their people can sleep safely."
Really, end of story?! Maybe you could explain why the Spanish are still rounding up jihadist cut throats with plans to attack targets in Spain.
Only the ignorant in Spain will sleep safely. Those that have read bin Ladens desire to return Spain to the Muslim fold won't be. Ever hear of conquest of Andalusia from the Muslim caliphs in the 13th century?
Better do a little history reading that includes Osama's Fatwa's and his desires on Spanish land.
4 - Temple Stark
So only the ignorant get to sleep safely. I knew I should of dropped out. Advice everybody - don't get an education you'll feel much safer.
I don't think flooding them with Western culture is the trick McBucko. Silas' recipricol idea of course raises the obvious point - how receptive are "we" to learning about them, Muslims and their colonially-carved countries and their history and customs?. From all I've seen and all the nuke 'em all cmments? Not much at all.
5 - Matthew T. Sussman
Anyone who swears that much about politics from their parents basement = half-sensical rant.
I expect this thread to fill up quickly with people who agree and disagree without talking about the substance of this thread, mainly because there is no substance here. Just ideology.
6 - Temple Stark
>>I expect this thread to fill up quickly with people who agree and disagree without talking about the substance of this thread
yep, good point.
READ THE POST BEFORE COMMENTING :-)
7 - Dave Nalle
>>The terrorists have an agenda. It has absolutely sweet blow-all to do with hating our values or our freedom. Give me a break. They want us out of the Middle-East. They want Israel to stop giving Palestine a hard time. They don't like the royal Saudis ripping off the oil there and living high on it. That's their fucking agenda.<<
No, that's the political agenda of ratiojnal anti-western leaders in the Middle East. That's an agenda which certainly ought to be addressed, but that's not the primary motivation of the terrorists. They hate western culture. They want westerners to die. They want the world to convert to the one true religion of Islam. I know this is hard for you to accept, but it's a fact. Do you not read their statements in the papers? Do you not see the rhetoric bin Laden and others have spouted on video? Their war is a total war of culture against culture and nothing short of the annihilation of the west and its civilization will ever satisfy them.
>>Like Howard Dean said years ago, the war in Iraq hasn't made us safer. It's made life more dangerous for us, as London knows now.<<
We have no evidence to support this claim. Terrorist attacks outside of the Middle East have been substantially less common since the invasion of Iraq than they were beforehand.
>> They bombed the Madrid subway, and Spain got out of Iraq. End of story. Spain's new government addressed the terrorists' agenda, and now their people can sleep safely.<<
So bombings are now an acceptable way to express your political opinions? If the appeasment the Spanish engaged in was a good thing, then presumably the bombings were an ok way to achieve that desirable political end? Let's all start bombing instead of voting. Let's make snipers national heroes and name schools after suicide bombers. One question. Are you insane? All appeasment does is encourage more violence. Why do you think there were bombings in London? They bombed London because doing exactly the same thing in Madrid WORKED. By endorsing that you make the terrorists legitimate. You make them our masters rather than our enemies. You tell them that they are right, that we are weak and that the best way to get what they want is to terrorize us.
>>But our leaders are the #1 boneheads on earth. <<
Actually, after this post I have to say that you share that position with the current government of Spain.
>>1. Get the hell out of Iraq. It's their country. We got rid of Saddam. Let them hang him, let them have a civil war, let them have a Shiite government, let them ban miniskirts or whatever the fuck they want to do. It's none of our business. As long as they sell us oil, let them fuck up their destiny or fulfill it as they see fit. Iraq for the Iraqis, and let's leave them to it.<<
That's pretty much what we intend to do. We've got no other agenda there, except to leave it stable rather than in civil war. That doesn't seem unreasonable at all. If we leave Iraq better than we found it no one rational is going to blame us.
>>2. Tell Israel to make peace with Palestine, or they can say goodbye to our gazillion dollars of aid every year. Very simple. You want our money, you make peace.<<
We shouldn't be giving Israel money anymore in the first place, but if it's a matter of doing this as a concession to terrorists then we should pour money into Israel. The stronger we make Israel the weaker the terrorists are.
>>3. Give interest-free loans to all Palestinian people who have a business or want to start one. Give them outright money to build schools and universities. Give them all the money they need to have a running country in 5 years time.<<
That sounds nice, but the terrorists don't give a rat's ass about the Palestinians. Like most Arabs they despise them.
>>4. Buy up all the goddam nukes in Russia before some poor Russian soldier sells one of them to a terrorist.<<
Probably too late on this one. Plus diplomatically encouraging Russia to deal with their aging and defective nuclear arsenal is a lot more practical. Those things are getting dangerous at this point and need to be dismantled on the spot, not transported around increasing the risk of accidents.
>>5. Put metal detectors at every subway entrance in New York City and every other subway system in the world, like they have in Madrid. Stop giving dollars to Omaha and Indiana to protect them from terrorism, for chrissake.<<
What you suggest is appealing, but it requires a complete restructuring of our legislative process to keep funds from being apportioned on the basis of population. Good luck with it.
>>6. Spend gazillions on spy operations to infiltrate every Muslim organization, mosque, student body, and young men's association on earth and keep tabs on these guys. There should be more spies than members in every sleeper cell of Al Qaeda.<<
You think we aren't already trying to do this? It's not as easy as you think, because we can't rely on home-grown US operatives because there just aren't enough who can do this sort of work. We have to borrow from countries like Iraq and Egypt and even Syria, and those aren't the most reliable sources for information.
>>7. Endow all Arab universities with political chairs that teach Western political ideas.<<
LOL, well, that might work even better than Iraq to distract the terrorists. Then they could just assassinate the professors and blow up university buildings. This sort of thing is exactly what they hate. Are you really this naive?
>>8. Translate Western literature and political books into Arabic, and give them away for free, or half-price. Dub Western movies into Arabic, and show them all over the Middle-East. Give them rap and rock 'n roll. Forget about propaganda. Just flood them with our pop culture. Jeans, more jeans. McDonalds everywhere. Forests of Christmas trees.
9. Give money to Al-Jazeera to have them do their broadcasts in English all over the world so we can see what the Arabs are seeing and what they are thinking.<<
Ok, again you show incredible ignorance. This is exactly what pisses the terrorists off. The more of this you do the more terrorists you create, the more you inflame the leadership and religious fanatics who are behidn them, and the more violence you generate.
>>10. Do something about Saudi-Arabia. <<
Which Saudi Arabia? Do you have any idea how that country is structured? Clearly not. You think the Al Saud family is the problem, but in fact it's the other classes within Saudi Arabia and the other power factions who want to use America to their benefit and probably against the royal family. The Saudis who were involved in the WTC attack were not from the royal family, they were from lesser clans who were disaffected with the Saudi regime. Overthrowing that regime would just amount to putting the terrorists in power.
>>11. Stop, stop working for Osama Bin-Laden. Bush and Blair, stop being his lackeys by delivering new recruits to him every day with your stupid actions and stupid words.<<
Again, ignorance of the Middle East dooms your ideas. The only thing the leaders there understand is strength. If we show weakness that encourages radicals and terrorists. We have to show that we can give back better than we get.
>>12. And for chrissake, stop saying the terrorists hate our freedom.<<
Why? Is the truth a bad thing now?
>>What we need is action<<
Right you are. We need serious action. We need to shut down most of our overseas bases, especially in Europe. Double our troop strength in Iraq in the next 6 months, give Iran an ultimatum to surrender bin Laden or face all-out war.
>>You're not preventing terrorism. You're encouraging it, you're stimulating it, you're giving it all the room in the world to grow, YOU'RE CAUSING TERRORISM INSTEAD OF PREVENTING IT.<<
True enough, if not for the reasons you think. By showing weakness and indecision we encourage further terrorism. No more weakness. No more appeasment. No more diplomacy.
Dave
8 - apostle john
Amen, amen, amen, amen and amen!!!!
9 - WTF
Have you all solved world hunger yet?
Or, rather, have you solved world terrorism yet?
Call me when you give up...
Follow the root causes. Hint, President Wilson may have had something to do with it. Although I thing the Krakatoa explosion in 645 (estimated, but geographically documented) also had something to do with it.
A few more Al Queda attacks in the west, and we could be talking a Nationalist Movement of huge proportions. If that happens, all bets are off. Sovreignty gets restored and Hitler or Stalin will look like a couple of pussycats.
Do you know what REALLY pisses radical islamists off? Go to Christian Church. Watch the demographic stats rise and watch them just go purple! I wonder why.
Just a few thoughts.
10 - Temple Stark
well WTF no one is going to solve world hunger by fucking like bunnies.
Now it may make more people go "world hunger? wazzat?"
11 - Matthew T. Sussman
I had such expectations for this thread, and Godwin was invoked before the comments reached double digits.
Is everyone watching the Live 8 replay or something?
12 - Temple Stark
What were your expectations?
13 - Matthew T. Sussman
Something much more asinine and entertaining.
The Ranternet has let me down today. But I know it won't last :)
14 - Temple Stark
Less of that is plenty IMHO.
15 - b8tzm
So many people with shit for brains, amazing
16 - Nancy
Dave, I think you're dead wrong about pouring money into Israel. We've been doing that for years, and all it's gotten us is Israeli arrogance & disdain, & the conviction of every arab & muslim in the world, just about, that we are grossly prejudiced against them. Which doesn't lead them to want to consider being friends with us, either. As for Israel, for some time now, they've been openly spying on us, taking our money & telling us to shove any conditions or even suggestions; they look upon US funds as their entitlement - and it's not. Maybe they needed funds in the beginning, but they're a well-established power now, and they don't need any more handouts. They certainly haven't earned them as an ally. Let's take our money & start spreading it around a little more evenly, and make friends with it (I think the education idea is useful, as are the business loans). Our policies in the middle east are waaaaay too lopsided for our own good.
And I do agree w/the final comment about the Bush & al Saud family being too close for comfort. I DO have a good understanding of how saudi arabia is, and part of the unrest is due to the fact that the oil wealth is, just like in the US, all being drained up into the top 1/2 of 1/10th %, leaving only a very very large lower class, and a rapidly disappearing middle class. Arabia is going to survive only if it becomes a republic of some kind, or if the family Saud is able to make the transition to representative rulers only, a la England, Norway, Belgium, or other 'modern' constitutional monarchies. Besides, they're awash in petty princes & royalies; last counting, how many thousands of 'princes' & 'princesses' were there?
17 - Dave Nalle
>>Dave, I think you're dead wrong about pouring money into Israel.<<
My only rationale for putting more money into Israel was to pressure the terrorists. Before the whole terrorist resurgance began I'd have said dump Israel, but if it irritates them so much, then I'm more supportive than I would be otherwise. I've no particular fondness for the Israelis, but in this situation we actually do have common interests.
>>I DO have a good understanding of how saudi arabia is, and part of the unrest is due to the fact that the oil wealth is, just like in the US, all being drained up into the top 1/2 of 1/10th %, leaving only a very very large lower class, and a rapidly disappearing middle class.<<
This is not at all like the US, however. In the US anyone can benefit from oil profits. I have stock in Haliburton and Royal Dutch and anyone else could buy stock in the oil related industries of their choice and profit handsomely. Our society is based on money, not class, so if you have even a small amount to invest through a 401K for example, you can cash in on oil profits.
Dave
18 - H.W. Saxton
Adam, I've read your post but not the subsequent string of comments. So please excuse me if anything here is redundantly similar to anything already posted, aiight?
They basically do hate our "Freedom(s).
I don't know if that's the best word for it but... They hate our self indulgent lifestyles, the fact that our women have a much greater degree of choice in how the take care of themselves and that they are treated with more respect and equality than they are in those Flintstone assed countries like Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia,Egypt etc. They hate the fact that we acknowledge culture and the beauty of Art,Music,Film etc anything beyond prayer call 6 freakin' times a day, hangin' with the fellas and whupping on our wenches
Al-Jizz-Era does have an English translated website/newspaper. What is written there for English reading people is not what is written for Arabic readers. And it is not just a case of translation either.
You are 100% about innundating them with Western Culture. It would be a tremendous boon. Sell them the idea of freedom and make them want it bad enough to fight for the change. In Iran where they've had a SMALL taste they are wanting more and more and more.
You're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
off the mark about Palestine. They might be worthy of more aid I do agree with you there but they first have to reel in and learn to control their lunatic/parmilitary fringes first. Israel should be held to task for their f-ups much more than they have in the past. We didn't have many problems at all in the Mid East until we began aligning ourselves beside and behind Israel. They don't really need our help in the neighborhood that I can see but WE do need allies and the geographical locations they provide in the area and alla that kinda good shit.
You've also brought up Bush/Blair as some sort of pimps to the terrorists cause or raison d'etre. You seemed too smart to buy into that paranoiac crazy
assed nonsense. They had absolutely NO PROBLEMS "recruiting" before the war in Iraq with their own actions and words. Do ya remember the first WTC attack, the USS Cole,the embassy attacks in Kenya, the attacks on US citizens and interests in Saudi Arabia,all of the religous schools where pre-pube Muslim boys are indoctrinated onto hating Western Culture passionately and the Us of A to the point of death and destruction. Their ranks were steadily growing long before that, mi amigo. The war has just given these assholes a place to go and practice their craft and spew more rhetoric. That's all. There's more but...
19 - Dave Nalle
>> They had absolutely NO PROBLEMS "recruiting" before the war in Iraq with their own actions and words. <<
To elaborate on this, for a terrorist cell to be effective today and in place in a country like Britain, it would have had to be established there BEFORE 9/11.
Dave
20 - gonzo marx
Mr Nalle sez..
*for a terrorist cell to be effective today and in place in a country like Britain, it would have had to be established there BEFORE 9/11.*
not so, Mr Nalle..
case in point..you could illegally cross the mexican border with some cash and a visa card tonight, rent a truck, stop by a hardware store and/or wal-mart to pick up supplies and create havoc in a day or so
the difficulty in dealing with a cell structured adversary is not only the security difficulties when not all of your foes know each other...but also the smallness of each unit, and their flexibility
in military strategy, and intelligence communities..these scenarios have been played out for 40 years or so...none of them are easy
but dopn't fall into the idea that this cancer cannot sprout anew on a daily basis, or that it would need to be in place since before 9/11
complacency of that nature gets people killed
Excelsior!
21 - Victor Plenty
You could build a laser fence along Mexican border, all umpty-hundred miles of it, with minefields on both sides, and it still wouldn't be enough to render it impossible for a determined terrorist to get into the United States.
Porous borders are a necessary element of a free society. Attempting to seal off borders will not defeat terrorism, but it will make our economy and our culture significantly weaker prey for terrorists.
Leaving aside this issue of borders, I completely disagree with Adam's central claim. No matter how much we might disagree with our leaders' policies, it is wrong to say they cause the terrorists to attack us.
Nobody forced the terrorists into their utterly indefensible tactic of deliberately murdering innocent civilians. They chose their course of action without compulsion from anyone. The blame for it lies entirely on the heads of the terrorists themselves.
22 - Dave Nalle
>>case in point..you could illegally cross the mexican border with some cash and a visa card tonight, rent a truck, stop by a hardware store and/or wal-mart to pick up supplies and create havoc in a day or so<<
Yes, Gonzo. You could create a small bomb - maybe a car bomb - and kill a few people on a street corner or perhaps crash it into a restaruant. To launch an organized set of multiple coordinated attacks with powerful and compact explosives as were used in London you need a lot more of an organization and much more time to plan and prepare.
Dave
23 - gonzo marx
1 week, one man per target...and less than 50k in cash...can take out as many targets as needed..
and those bombs can take out tens of thousands if placed in the right spot..
i really don't want to get to explicit here Mr Nalle...but there are multiple very soft targets in each and every state that can cause tens of thousands of casualties under the simple scenario i have laid out here....and coordination is just a cell phone away...disposables can be picked up at any convenience store
i appreciate your viewpoint, but trust me here, you know nothing about these matters in a tactical sense...where i know far more than i'd like too
my above example was conservative and a no-brainer that coudl be accomplished by a teen ager with a weeks preparation
it can be exponentially worse
nuff said?
Excelsior!
24 - Dave Nalle
I don't want to get into the technical details, Gonzo. I do have some familiarity with explosives, if not as much hand-on experiene as you do. I've built and detonated several types of homemade bombs - long ago, mind you.
I debate that you can create a high-yield, low-volume explosive that's stable and reliable enough to put in an easily transportable timed bomb with stuff you can buy over the counter without having to get around restrictions which are already in place under homeland security measures.
>>..and coordination is just a cell phone away<<
Familiar with Project Echelon?
Anyway, I agree that there are a lot of soft-targets which would be vulnerable to individual attacks. I think a really major coordinated attack of the sort designed to inspire terror would be more challenging.
Dave
25 - gonzo marx
not really, Mr Nalle....
5 individuals, with no regard to living past the detonation...each at chem plants, chlorine storage...even power lines ...could be quite terrifying...
the black out fo the NE a year or so ago, was because ONE power station overloaded
imagine the terror if multiple stations were removed simultaneously
just one "nightmare scenario"
as for the means...stable is not required when you are speaking of terrorists that don't expect to live...yield becomes primary
ammonia and iodine crystals come to mind first...but the anarchist cookbook , gives many prime examples of useful , easily attainable compounds....especially if multiple individuals take one component each
my whole point, these types of incidents are VERY difficult to stop...and none require the cell to be in place prior to 9/11...they could come across the mexican border anytime, and easily wreak havoc and terror
critical targets need better security, and the borders need to be as sealed as possible....this won't stop it, but i twould make the process much more difficult, and thus narrow the search for those who would be suspect
i put it to you, in a very real and practical sense, beyond the "feel good" measures in airports, no real progress has been made...or even proposed...by either side of the aisle...
i don't see this as a partisan issue...but i DO knwo who is in charge at the moment, and ths who's "watch" is responsible
nuff said?
Excelsior!