We cannot forget - we cannot forgive; we Jews must kill our enemies today that we may live tomorow.
In March 1933, Adolf Hitler took power in Germany after a rigged election where his thugs had burned down the German parliament building and had blamed the main opposition, the Communists, in order to gain more votes. He instituted a dictatorship in Germany and tried to bring his country out of the economic depression that the collapsed stock market in New York in 1929 had led to.…
Article comments
76 - Dr Dreadful
Every week is anti-American week in Ruvy World!
(BTW, is it disrespectful that we're commenting on his thread on the Sabbath?)
:-)
77 - Jet
I don't know about us, but Stan's across the international Date line isn't he?
By the way, Suss says he's looking forward to me never writing again; should I oblige?
78 - STM
Leighann: "Mary Singer. Is this a German name?"
Yes, according to a few websites, it is ... so it could be but it's also an anglo-saxon name and in keeping with this thread, also a European jewish name - from Yiddish.
Since the saxons went to England from Germany anyway, that's possibly where it has its roots. In all three cases, the names mean a similar thing ... someone associated with music, singing, ballads or poetry.
Isaac Singer, of Singer sewing machine fame, was likely of German background ... from Saxony. It all gets confusing here though - Singer was an American who moved to England to live.
The Irish rugby halfback is Peter Singer, but I'd suggest in his case it's more likely an English name or possibly an anglicised version of an Irish surname.
There are also suggestions that some German names like Wissinger have been anglicised in both the US and the UK to become Singer.
But it's a reasonably common name in Germany and in the English-speaking countries.
There are 100 Singers in the Sydney, Australia, white pages telephone book.
How's that Leighann? Help?
79 - Tony
What I find humorous -- a point that is never really touched on -- is that Israel actually thinks they are anything more to the U.S. than a military and political interest. The Jews actually believe that the U.S. government cares about their struggle or their biblical claims to sand.
Israel exits in its current incarnation purely as a way for the United States to keep control over the Middle East without stationing even more troops there. We give the Israelis a bunch of weapons including some nukes for good measure and they essentially keep everyone in line, while giving us intelligence information and a safe place to operate from should we get the urge to intervene in some event that we feel goes against our greater interests in the region.
Oh, and lets not forget that big Jewish voting block in the U.S. Pimped out just like the red necks. One gets fed Christian information about hating gays and the fallacy of science and the other is saturated with pro-Israel propaganda. In the end, they are just high priced whores up for bid between the two biggest pimps in town.
There is no Israel. The United States created it, maintains it, and if we ever withdrew our support it would cease to exist once again.
80 - STM
Jet: "First Ruvy, now you two. Did I miss a memo that this was anti-American week?"
We're just having fun. You're our mates. If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother. We love youse, really ... although we'd love youse even more if you could laugh at yourselves a bit more.
Ruvy, however, is deadly bloody serious.
It's Saturday here. Like I say, Anzac Day. All the old Diggers have been out marching through the city with their battle flags and their medals.
We love them too, for their sacrifice and that of their mates (and American servicemen are remembered too at some services, especially in Melbourne where the crew of the USS Houston is marked at the shrine of remembrance alongside the crew of HMAS Perth from the same battle against the Japanese in the Sunda Strait), although I don't want to hear another bugle/trumpet rendition of The Last Post, in memory of the dead, until next year.
The TV channels flog it mercilessly. It's even been used this year to promote the annual Anzac Day rugby league game. Not sure about the veracity of that. I understand they didn't mean any disrespect but perhaps it cheapens the meaning of it all.
It's a very solemn thing and should only be played once in each place ... at whatever Dawn Service it's played at.
81 - Clavos
Isaac Singer, of Singer sewing machine fame...
The other Isaac Singer, Isaac Bashevis Singer (no relation), America's foremost Yiddish poet and a Nobel Prize winner (1978), was Polish. He lived in my small Miami-area beach town of Surfside; our main street is named for him.
A wonderful, warmhearted man, and a keen observer of the foibles of humanity.
82 - roger nowosielski
Since you're on the subject, Clavos, Isaac Singer wrote an excellent introduction (or an afterword) to Knut Hamsun's Mysteries. He considered Hamsun in fact "the father of modern literature."
83 - STM
Clav: "A wonderful, warmhearted man, and a keen observer of the foibles of humanity."
God knows, we need a few of them.
Goodnight and good luck, guys ... I'm off home to watch the footy.
84 - Ruvy
Lots of comments to respond to on a Saturday night:
Roger,
There's always the enemy and there's no changing it.
The problem is that there is always the enemy. This story from 23 April in Arutz Sheva is just one example. Jews in Israel or overseas do not habitually deface mosques. Perhaps we should so the Moslems get a good solid taste of the shit they hand out all the time here - but we don't.
Pay attention to what the Obnoxious American and Clavos say about Jew-hatred. They know what they are talking about.
OA, Clavos, Joanne, thank you.
Leigham, I'm touched by what you say. I often wonder how people could have done the things that they have done. I can just about fathom one crazy person like Hitler being that satanic but then there were all of his men who were killing men, women and babies! I will never understand that. It bothers me to the point that I think about it and worry about it all of the time. No one is safe from that kind of evil. Our true arrogance is in thinking for even a second that we are.
The Nazis were very very effective in using propaganda to build their state, and they used every lever of emotion, culture and art to drive their message home. In the pre-war years when they were pulling Germany out of the banker-induced depression of 1929, they not only provided jobs in arms factories, construction, building autobahnen, "the People's Car" Volkswagen, all of which restored pride in "Germanness", they used every avenue of culture to drive home their message of Aryan superiority. This fictional example from the movie Cabaret is a tiny taste of what the average German (non-Jew, non-Gypsy, non-homosexual) had for influence every waking minute of the day. Even the Christian "Lord's Prayer" was re-written to fit the dictates of the Nazi Party. When exposed to this influence 24/7 for a number of years, it becomes normal to assume it is the truth - especially when life is getting better than it had been.
85 - Ruvy
Stan,
We've been over all this ground before, you and I.
Had European nations taken in Jewish refugees in the first place, instead of trying to keep them out (remember the conference in Evian), there never would have been a need for kinder transports at all. Had the Brits had the guts to say to the Jewish Agency, "ïf you want Jewish immigration, mobilize the haganá to protect them," there would have been NO problem with Arab terrorism in Mandate Palestine at all. And you know that I'm right.
But we all know that didn't happen, did it? The Brits were afraid of the Arabs, scared shitless of them and didn't want to upset the Wahhabi trash who sent oil, even though they had to accede to training Jews to watch the oil line from Mosul to Haifa (the real reason Orde Wingate created the Palma"H) We also know that the craven and duplicitous British did everything they could NOT to train Jews to fight in WWII and gave into a great deal of pressure. And we also know that NONE of the Allied air forces ever bombed the railroad tracks to the concentration camps or the entry-ways so as to make them in-operative. AND we know that the British kept the doors of Mandate Palestine closed AFTER WWII - an action that resulted in the violent Jewish revolt that was all toO well deserved; and we know that the duplicitous British liars, having promised, as a matter of international law, to erect a Jewish State here, refused resolutely to do so, and turned over their arms and fortresses to the Arabs who wanted to exterminate us.
I don't care how much perfume you put on a pig - you can't turn it into a silk purse. The rotten truth still stands whether you like it or not, no matter how many upper cuts you want to deliver to my chin.
If you ever do come here as a guest, remember that I'll be gentleman enough not to tell you that in my home. I treat all guests with courtesy. But here, on-line, the truth will serve fine; in fact, Stan, "the truth will set you free".
86 - Ruvy
(BTW, is it disrespectful that we're commenting on his thread on the Sabbath?)
Not at all. It gives me something to look forward to.
87 - Ruvy
you know Ruvy, you make me sad to be a Jew.
Robert, you make me sad that you are a Jew. When you come over here and put your ass on the line, the way my son will have to in a few months and the way I do now, to defend the homeland G-d gave you, then you can bitch at me all you want. You will have earned the right to any opinion you desire. Till then, Robert, you're THERE, pretending you have the right to lecture me HERE.
Since you appear to be in exile, go learn about the ninth plague, the plague of darkness. The final Redemption will mirror the events in the Exodus and it is evident you are entering such a plague again. May the Almighty show you and yours His mercy....
88 - roger nowosielski
Realization of your worst fears, Ruvy.
89 - Glenn Cessor
Ruvy -
Concerning your original topic, if that is truly how you feel, then you are never - never! - going to be happy. Never, ever, ever.
Oh, you might laugh and smile here and there and tell yourself that you're happy, but you are nursing base hatred in your heart...feeding it, caressing it, becoming one with it until you are blind to all but that which your hate allows you to see.
We must never forget what has happened in history - indeed, as the saying goes, if we forget history then we are doomed to repeat it. HOWEVER, if we do not forgive, then hatred will fester and grow like a cancer.
AND YOU AS A JEW should have it in your heart to forgive!
If you do not forgive, then listen to the words of J. Mendes DeSolla, Head Master of the Religious Schools of the Congregations
Emanu-El and Sherith Israel, San Francisco back in 1871:
"We should forgive others as well as we wish our sins and offences to be forgiven. It is very sinful to be unforgiving and revengeful."
You may attend Selichot services, and 'selichot' means 'forgiveness'. According to Rabbi Malka Drucker, at Selichot services, "After looking at our behavior in the past year, we ask each other forgiveness and we offer it. This is basic Judaism. Judge yourself and forgive others."
The same Rabbi states: "Tomer Devorah, a kabbalistic book written by Moses Cordovero in the thirteenth century, teaches us that we should be like God. "You shall go in God's ways," means that if God is compassionate, so should we be. Throughout the High Holiday services, we sing, "Adonai, Adonai, el rahum v'hanun..." God, God, of compassion and grace, slow to anger, generous in love and truth, showing love to thousands,forgiving sin, wrong and failure; who pardons." In this passage from Exodus are thirteen qualities of God, and they all have to do with mercy."
The same rabbi also notes: "The Shulchan Aruch, the Code of Jewish Law, says, "The one whose forgiveness is sought should forgive with a perfect heart and not be cruel, for such is not the characteristic of a Jew. Even if you have been grievously wronged, do not seek vengeance, nor bear a grudge against the other. Even if the offender does not arouse himself to come to you for forgiveness, you should present yourself to the offender in order that the latter may beg your pardon. If you are magnanimous and forgive, all your own sins are forgiven."
So if you're going to be a Jew, Ruvy, then BE A JEW and ABIDE BY THE TENETS OF JUDAISM! FORGIVE! Do NOT forget...but FORGIVE.
90 - Ruvy
Glenn,
All that you say above in your 4th through 10th paragraphs holds absolutely true - except that it refers to fellow Children of Israel, not everybody on the planet. I try hard to be forgiving to fellow Jews (I don't always succeed, but I do try) and I try hard to be forgiving to my fellow Children of Israel, the Pashtun (many of whom are presently seduced by poison of the Taliban), many of whom presently want me and mine dead. I'm commanded in the Torah not to hold hatred in my heart for a brother.
But as to the rest of the world, I'm not required to forgive. When those in the rest of the world seek forgiveness, I'm wise to try to grant it - both for my sake (forgiveness is healthier than holding on to hatred) and for theirs. So, Germans who come to me and seek our forgiveness will always find me kind and willing to forgive. But for the most part, Arabs and other Jew-haters have not been seeking our forgiveness lately.
That is basic Judaism, Glenn.
Nice try. Props for the effort.
91 - roger nowosielski
Well, Ruvy. You've just expressed what I find most objectionable - the Jewish people separating themselves from the rest of humanity. And I don't care now where such convictions stem from, they're wrong.
92 - Glenn Contrarian
Ruvy -
Okay, I was completely wrong - it's not the first time and won't be the last. There is nothing I can find in Judaism requiring forgiveness of non-Jews.
I can say that I deeply, truly pity all those who follow Judaism (and Islam, for I think they preach something similar), for being able to forgive one's enemies enables one to look past the obvious and find the real reasons for hatred and injustice...and enables one to heal.
It was not until now that I had any serious misgivings about Judaism - after all, you and I share much the same belief in God, since neither of us are trinitarians.
But to not forgive - Ruvy, you have my pity...
...and now I see that there is truly seems to be no hope for peace in the Middle East.
93 - roger nowosielski
Not unless it's enforced, Glenn. It's a religion of endless suffering and self-destruction. Sorry, Ruvy. Shoot me if you must.
94 - STM
Ruve: "We also know that the craven and duplicitous British did everything they could NOT to train Jews to fight in WWII and gave into a great deal of pressure".
Nevertheless, they were the only ones that did.
The Jewish Brigade - and a brigade isn't a small army unit - were raised in Palestine (and there were plenty of Pelstinian and non-Palestinian jews fighting elsewhere in the British armed forces, many thousands of them - 50,000 just from Palestine alone).
The Jewish Brigade (5000 men) were incorporated into the British army as an infantry unit and sent to Italy to fight the Nazis.
So for all your bluster, the British were still the only allied power to raise a fighting force consisting entirely of Jews, to arm them, to train them and to send them to fight the Germans.
Like I say, without the Nazis none of any of this would have been an issue in the first place. Simply, there wouldn't have been a war that resulted in a) the need for mass migration of Jews, or b) a Holocaust.
Put the blame where it really lies. With the squareheads.
You also seem to forget that Britain took in the largest number of Jews from occupied Europe (both before and after it was occupied) than anyone else.
You're just drinking the koolaid there Ruve, and swallowing it lock, stock and barrel.
You never addressed the other issue I raise: that most jews in Europe prior to Nazi occupation weren't that interested in uprooting, losing their homes, businesses and friends and starting a new life elsewhere.
This is one area you definitely overplay.
95 - Ruvy
When those in the rest of the world seek forgiveness, I'm wise to try to grant it - both for my sake (forgiveness is healthier than holding on to hatred) and for theirs. So, Germans who come to me and seek our forgiveness will always find me kind and willing to forgive.
I'm quoting real life experience here, Glenn. Real individuals have come asking for forgiveness - and I've told them that while those who actually did the deed can't be forgiven - they never sought forgiveness, at least not to my knowledge - those who sought the forgiveness certainly aren't to be blamed, as they do not have the hatred in their hearts or have sought to expel that hatred if they once had it. See Leighann's comment upthread, and my response to her, Glenn.
In other words, the attitude you seek from me is essentially the one that I have - to anyone who seeks forgiveness. After all, if G-d is willing to forgive he who seeks forgiveness, who am I to withhold it? That indeed would be unhealthy and holding hatred in one's heart unnecessarily.
96 - Ruvy
Stan, maybe you missed this paragraph in my article:
At last, German Jews, desperate for a place to run to, began to run to Mandate Palestine; a few short years previous they never would have considered deserting the civilized Berlin for Mandate Palestine. But now they were happy to get out. Thousands of Jews settled in Tel Aviv and Haifa, giving a distinct flavor to the buildings they had erected.
German Jews woke up under the threat of death. And a lot of them woke up in time. When Ze'ev Jabotinsky toured Jewish towns and villages seeking votes for the Revisionist Zionists in the Jewish Agency elections of 1934, he begged Polish, Romanian, Hungarian and Slovakian Jews to come home. His begging fell on deaf ears - until it was too late. When Jews in Eastern Europe finally figured out that they had to leave, and that the Land of Israel was the only place to go in the world, the British had already slammed the door shut on the Mandate that they had an obligation to uphold.
The tale is even sadder than that. Jews don't like to be told that they have to move their butts. During the middle of the war, a group of Jews were praying the afternoon prayer in a Hungarian town when a refugee, breathless from running, broke into the synagogue and told them the Nazis would arrive in a half hour, and not much more with the intent to round them up and ship them off to a concentration camp. He then hightailed it to safety. The Jews in the synagogue didn't listen and round up their families to seek what safety they could; they argued over what the man said and whether he should be believed - until the Nazis arrived - on time - and took them and their families to concentration camps. This story is from one of the few survivors.
Did I hear someone saying that Jews were smart and possessed of naturally high intelligence? This was smart?
I'm really sorry, Stan, all your arguing and alleging that I drink Kool-aid will not bring back the dead who refused to flee, or the dead the British shut out from the best refuge they could have had, the Land of Israel. They are just as dead and just as gone. And they traveled over the tracks to concentration camps that the British and Americans, possessing tremendous air superiority in 1944 REFUSED to bomb! You can't get around any of that, and you embarrass yourself trying.
Remembrance Day here memorializes, specifically, the massacre at Gush Etzion on 14 May 1948. From the link. The final saga of the Etzion bloc included two separate massacres and a prolonged and stubborn defense against hopeless odds. The bloc was finally overrun by soldiers of the British armed and officered Jordan Legion, who were responsible for the final massacre of surrendered defenders, a war crime..[emphases mine]
British betrayal, Stan. No matter what anyone tells you, that is we suffered at the hands of the British. And a French embassy official had the gall to say "that shitty little country, Israel" when talking to the embassy officials of the country responsible for that war crime, Stan?
And you want me to forget - or forgive? What kind of fool do you take me for anyway? Have another sip of that kangaroo-flavoured Koolaid you like to drink, Stan.
97 - Oh Dear!
You forget. Allies did not know about the camps, until well into the war.
98 - STM
I heard you constantly putting shit on the Poms - who know are far from perfect. But you conveniently forget that the real issue here is that had the Nazis not come to power in Germany, none of this would be an issue.
Plus, the people you are putting shit on spent six years fighting the bastards.
Your inability to look at the reality of all this astounds me.
Although given your track record, I don't know why I should be astounded.
In my view, Ruve, the more I see of this, if all Israelis are like you, then I'm starting to think that it's Israel that's the true bastion of perfidy, not Albion.
It's beyond me that you can sit there criticising Britaina nd the US over this, but can't point the finger of blame at the one place it truly belongs.
The only place it belongs.
I know about the Arab Legion and I do know about the massacre..Of course, no Israelis have ever been accused of killing Arabs indisciminately.
The Arab Legion also spared the defenders of old Jerusalem in 1948..
you make all my points for me, though Ruve ... the reason the British tried to control the flow of jewish refugess was just so those things wouldn't happen.
Because they couldn't, we got the predicted descent into chaos ... the the current situation.
It could also be suggested that the Hagana were a terrorist organisation. IMO, they were a disgrace, hellbent on a certain path and killing British soldiers attempting to keep the peace, especially when some of those British soldiers had already put their own lives on the line in the six years previously in a vicious fight to rid the world of the murderers of European jewry. The irony of that won't be lost on anyone here but you.
Certainly, embryonic Israel was bent on wresting control of Palestine from Arabs and returning it to Jewish control.
However, when you look at this with 20/20 hindsight rather than Ruvy-coloured glasses, the blame still lies 100 per cent in the corner of those responsible for the Holocaust, not those trying to pick up the pieces before and after.
99 - Ruvy
Stan,
This writer will never exonerate the Nazis for the satanic evil they brought about on this planet. The German people have not been judged for the evil of the satanic bastards they brought forth and for the war these bastards began in the year 5700 on this planet. That they have not been judged, and that they have not suffered for the satanic evil they did convinces me that terrible things are yet to befall Europe. The Living G-d of Israel will yet avenge the murders of His children. And you will stand in awe and in utter fear when you see this happen.
How this will happen, and when it will happen I cannot tell you. I am no prophet, and frankly, I'm glad such knowledge does not burden my soul.
But be warned. The murderers will be judged along with those who allowed that murder to happen. Europeans generally cooperated with the Nazi savagery because the vast majority of them felt powerless in the face of evil and overwhelming force. But the British and Americans did not quail in the face of this satanic enemy and fought to erase the world of it. But they did not fight to erase or stop the evil holocaust of death that they were well aware of. For this, both will be judged. Additionally, the British betrayed the Jews, whom they had agreed under international law to aid in building a National Home, and sided with the Arab enemy, in spite of the constant betrayals of this Arab enemy. And for this, they too, will be judged.
100 - Christopher Rose
Stan, it is an exercise in futility trying to engage Ruvy on this subject. Like Popeye, he is what he is, and no amount of reason is ever going to shake his "fixed knowledge". If I was religious, I'd pray for him.
Changing the subject somewhat, what I would like to know, and this goes for all three strands of monotheism, is this: all three of them believe in an afterlife, that the human "soul" is immortal and goes to a better place, so why anger and not happiness at all this death?
I am sad and/or angry when loved ones die because I believe that life ends at death, so each passing is a real and genuine loss.
These faithists can't apparently totally believe in their views or they would be celebrating the fact that one of their loved ones had gone to a "better place".
101 - STM
Ruve: "the British betrayed the Jews, whom they had agreed under international law to aid in building a National Home".
They might have been able to do so, and work for a way better outcome than the one you have now, if the Hagana hadn't started killing them.
I see the betrayal the opposite way.
You realise the insanity of the early conflict was that British officers seconded from the British Army to whichever side they had been told prior to the fighting fought on the side of both the Hagana and the Arab Legion, even while the Hagana and some more radical elements were killing British soldiers (the Siege of Jerusalem)... ?
What does that tell you?
The mandate ends and they're engaged in a futile attempt to keep order and prevent a descent into a bloodbath over partition.
Didn't work. Still hasn't.
And I agree it's futile Rosey, but I can;t let him get away with it with calling him on it.
A skewed view of history is fine, provided it's also not adverse to having a little skewed look at the other POV.
102 - roger nowosielski
STM,
Ruvy is an exception, and to tell the truth, he's getting more and more radical by the moment. I'm willing to bet he doesn't represent more than one percent of his people.
Just consider. If they're all like that, then they're no different from their most rabid enemies and the whole Middle East had better descend into the bowels of Hell.
That would be justice.
103 - Ruvy
Stan,
Last night I took the trouble to write a long comment detailing for you the three different groups who fought the British here before the State was established. The damned ass end "terchnorten" monster gobbled it up, and I'm rapidly losing my patience with this shitty new format. There is a distinct possibility that I'll be gone from here if Olsen & Co. can't fix up the mess they've made of this site.
In short, then.
Look up the following: Hagana, Irgun, Stern Gang. The terrorists you dislike so were not the Hagana, but the Stern Gang (which assassinated Lord Moyne in Egypt, and Count Folke Bernadotte during the war for independence), and the Irgun, which broke its prisoners out of the Atlit Prison, blew up the King David Hotel, and flogged British officers to teach them not to take a whip to Jews. Compared to them, the Hagana were girls on a country picnic. Had it been left to the Hagana, the Brits would still be here now, still retarding the development of the country.
Certain facts till stand, though, whether you like them or not.
1. Britain betrayed and perverted the Mandate, which according to the Articles on Palestine in 1920 vested sovereignty in the Jewish people.
2. Secondly, They shut the doors of the one good refuge that Jews desperate for one needed - the Land of Israel.
3. Thirdly, they refused to bomb concentration camps or the tracks leading to them, even when doing so would have betrayed no security. Untold thousands of Jews (and others) died because of this. 4. Finally, after WWII they continued to keep the door shut to Mandate Palestine, illegally so, and attempted to give the country over to the Arabs.
That base enmity continues to this day.
All the hand-wringing and arguing and whining over Britain's losses in WWI do not change any of these facts. There was and continues to exist a terrible moral failure on the part of the British, and frankly I only hope that G-d gives them the justice they deserve.
I do not want to continue this back and forth, but if you challenge basic history, I'll keep rubbing your nose in it until it sickens you.
Sorry, mate. That's how I is.
104 - Ruvy
Roger,
I hate to tell you this, but I represent far more than 1% of the Jewish population here. My views are roughly represented by a least 40% of the Jewish population in this country, in one way or another.
What's more, even many "peaceniks" have the same unforgiving view I do; their parents or grandparents were either sent off to Madagascar (like the people on the Exodus 1947), or rotted in a DP camp while the Brits kept the gates to this land shut and handed over arms and fortified positions to the Arabs as they evacuated.
And they well know that had the doors of the Mandate been open there was the possibility that their relatives who died in the death camps could have come home to safety, even if under the guns of the Hagana - instead of turning into dust and ash that Polish schoolchildren trample on unthinkingly today.
If that offends you, it is meant to. It is the cold, hard truth. You will see the whole world get dragged into a hell that you will all hate in the not to distant future.
I leave you with this warning from the Bible: "those who curse Israel will be cursed; those who bless Israel will be blessed." Think hard on those words. Think on your relatives in Tel Aviv, if not yourself, and think hard on those words.
I bid you a good day.
105 - roger nowosielski
No, Ruvy. I never hated Israel, or cursed it. Just don't believe in these prophecies. And I hope I'm not offending you by saying so.
106 - roger nowosielski
Explain to me one thing, please. How come bombing the concentration camps would have saved lives? And what time frame are we talking about? Were they knowledgeable about those camps? Do you have links to sources?
107 - roger nowosielski
BTW, this interface still sucks to high heaven; they surely took all the fun out of instant communication. You almost have to divine when the fresh comment is coming from. And you can't just go to it but fish for it, hoping you're find it. Our geniuses.
108 - Christopher Rose
Roger, our geniuses are working like heroes to fix all the various bugs and weirdness after a major technology upgrade.
This is completely normal for this kind of process and things will improve over the next few days. Please have a little patience and stop complaining so much...
109 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, repeating your limited points endlessly doesn't make them any more true. We ALL get that you see yourself and your adopted homeland as victims and you are sick of it.
None of that is remotely convincing at all, because you have no facts, only fear, grudges, prejudice and superstition. You like to think of it as "cold, hard truth" though, as if that made it true or even acceptable.
All you've really done is swap the secular myth of American exceptionalism for the faithist conceit of Israeli exceptionalism. Both points of view are utter egocentric drivel of course, but it doesn't take a genius or even a psychologist to see the deeper fear (and loathing) that is really at the heart of your particular personality.
It is actually humans that are exceptional, not countries, and it is humans that will still be around regardless of the illusory fate of nations or faiths in the future.
I know you can never accept this because of the fixed knowledge system you have signed up for, but it doesn't make it any less true, despite all your hollow blustering.
110 - roger nowosielski
Sorry, Chris - just letting off steam, that's all. I know it's gonna take a while.
111 - roger nowosielski
It is cold, Chris, but I do like what you said at the end - about humans being exceptional, not countries. We should all try to remember that rather then keep on digging deeper into the rabbit hole.
112 - Ruvy
Explain to me one thing, please. How come bombing the concentration camps would have saved lives? And what time frame are we talking about? Were they knowledgeable about those camps? Do you have links to sources?
When countries go to war, they are faced with nightmarish choices. One of them is whether to give away one's knowledge of an enemy's code for communication.
The Germans had developed a code they thought was unbreakable - which Belgians or Poles, depending on which account you read, broke before the war even started.
Bombing the German concentration camps would have compromised the British and American security by making the Germans aware that their vaunted Enigma Code had been broken. Until the invasion of Normandy in June 1944, it was a priority that the Germans not know that the Enigma Code had been broken.
BUT AFTERWARDS was a different question. The Americans and British had achieved a strong measure of air superiority, and were able to raid such places as they chose in Europe with relatively little opposition. So, the time frame for this would have been from late June 1944 until March or April 1945, with the front shrinking westwards as the Red Army advanced west through White Russia, Poland and Germany.
The value: the extermination of Jews and others in Europe depended on a coordinated system of communication and transportation because what was involved was the mass transfer of human beings, prisoners, from one place to another. That "another" place was where they were to die. Bombing the tracks to the concentration camps would have wrecked the transport of prisoners. Bombing the entry way to the camps would have made it hard to transfer prisoners from the trains to gas chambers or to any other part of the camp, and would have allowed the stronger of the prisoners in the camps to escape. Fire-bombing the gas chambers would have effectively forced the Nazis to find a far less cost effective way of killing Jews.
As for knowledge of what was going on, you need to remember that ashes from the concentration camps fell on Polish and German cities. By 1943 everybody in Eastern Europe knew what was going on; various religious agencies reported regularly to the west, in dribs and drabs. That was why there were a series of revolts in the Warsaw, Lodz and Kovno Ghettos in mid 1943.
Everybody in power knew, no matter what they said later. And everybody in power, from the Jew-haters in the American administration, to the "not-in-my-back-yard" American Reform Jews to the Jew-haters in the British government knew basically what was happening. They folded their arms and nodded their heads in silent assent. The Nazis were doing them a favor and they were not going to stop them.
I don't have time to give you links, but all you have to do is google this stuff up. You'll get thousands of hits.
113 - Ruvy
Baronius, At comment 22 you wrote,
My point is, the US, French, and British military weren't operating to the east of Berlin. Their bombers were focusing on the industrial areas of Cologne and the Ruhr Valley. Whatever happened on the other side of the continent was Russia's to stop. Russia took their time, though, especially in Poland, where they gave the Nazis a few extra weeks to finish off Warsaw. Russia had few planes and no interest in saving the Jews
You're right about where the soldiers operated, and where the infantry and artillery went. That is not the real issue here. The issue is where the airplanes went, and as you point out the Red Army was not strong on planes.
Pressure was put on Roosevelt to do something to save Jews being murdered off in the camps in mid 1944 to early 1945 when the Russians had effectively "liberated" the territory. The USAAF could have bombed the gas chambers the way they did Dresden. The RAF could have done likewise. They could have bombed the track, they could have bombed the entrances and unloading points at the camps, making them effectively inoperable. The United States and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland CHOSE not to do so.
We have a saying in Hebrew, Baronius. tzedaká matzilá memávet - charity (or righteousness) saves from death. These bombing raids I described to you would have been both righteousness and charity - even if Jews had died in them as collateral damage. The sword of righteousness was in the hands of the Americans and the British - and the moment to wield it was at hand in June, 1944. The Americans and the British CHOSE not to wield that sword. Their lack of charity (or righteousness) will not save them from death.
114 - STM
Ruvy is now officially completely bonkers.
115 - Ruvy
This article is worth reading as it backs my analysis of the roles that the various Jewish groups played vis a vis the British. Were it not for the etze"l and le"Hi, the British would still be here making themselves useless, much as the UN does now. With G-d's help, one day we will be rid of the UN trash and all the other trash we don't need - the interfering Americans and the interfering Europeans.
116 - Sami Uddin
RUVY,
There can be so many and many arguments made to the facts you provide and I can even prove them wrong.
But i'd say this in just one line:
"Jews are the ones cursed by GOD!"
You know it, I know it, so just leave it at that and get on with ur life. Try to be a better person at an individual level. Thats the least anyone can do.
117 - Sami Uddin
Oh, and i can go back as 5000 years or even more, and then take you through every century of this time and Prove it over and over again, why do the jews suffer.
It not an opinion, nor is it a personal analysis, but it is a fact.
I am a Muslim, I can point out many of the disputed territories in the world where Muslims are being attacked and killed and what not. But i aint gonna whine on it, because most of the muslims have lost their true faith and values.
And the few who follow the religion properly, are suffering because of them too. But thats how life is supposed to be, Cruel!
Why dont u step up and accept the fact
118 - Ruvy
Sami,
If that's what YOU think, then you will miss out on a promised reconciliation between all the Children of Abraham. He who curses Israel is cursed - he who blesses Israel is blessed.
119 - roger nowosielski
Ruvy,
The idea of reconciliation should encompass all peoples and nations.
That's my humble opinion, never mind the Scriptures. It's all about good, nothing about evil.
120 - Ruvy
In a short period of time, a book, "Cracking the Qur'an Code", by Lowell Gallin, will be released through Lulu.com Look out for it, Sami. I will mention it here at Blogcritics Magazine in an article or two because it shows the route to peace between Muslims like yourselves and Jews like me.
We can walk that path to peace - or we can walk the path to war. You will have to choose soon. And I hope you do not allow hate filled "leaders" to choose for you.
Have a good week.