We cannot forget - we cannot forgive; we Jews must kill our enemies today that we may live tomorow.
In March 1933, Adolf Hitler took power in Germany after a rigged election where his thugs had burned down the German parliament building and had blamed the main opposition, the Communists, in order to gain more votes. He instituted a dictatorship in Germany and tried to bring his country out of the economic depression that the collapsed stock market in New York in 1929 had led to.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - roger nowosielski
Even in NYC, OA. That surprises me. I lived there for over sixteen years, and rarely if ever have I heard anti-Semitic slurs even in the lowest of places. Which is not to negate your experience. I'm sure it still exists, just like any kind of prejudice. It takes time to stump out.
27 - The Obnoxious American
Yes, especially on the fringes. Basically, because I don't look jewish and don't wear my private details on my sleeve (and this is true for everything about me, not just my religion), on a week by week basis I face a situation where I have to decide whether or not to get into a fight over the religion that I was born into.
Growing up (in NYC btw), I knew many elders who had serial numbers tatooed on their arms. And I saw the films of the piles of jewish glasses, train cars, etc. Knowing this at a young age affects you. In some ways you want to be more aggressive and you are bracing for the fight. In other ways it makes you want to curl up and hide who you are.
It is truly amazing to grow up in an American city, look like a caucasian, and hear some of the things that come out of people's mouths. Like, Jewish isn't a race, yet Jews this and Jews that. I don't really believe that Jews are a seperate race, but these things are said as if we are not even held in high enough esteem to be allowed to claim prejudice because we are white.
The most hilarious thing about it is when people claim I am racist, such as with my differences with President Obama. I have been called racist in various threads here on BlogCritics because of my differences with Obama's platform. Yet more than any non-Jewish white person, I understand prejudice. I don't use the term "gyped" as in "You got gyped" because that is a racial slur against those with a gypsy heritage. Just like when people say, "don't Jew out like that man" or whatever else. I am not claiming to understand the full plight of my African American countrymen, but I understand a lot of what they have and continue to have to deal with. My beef with Obama has always been on issues of policy.
28 - roger nowosielski
Well, yes, OM. The attitudes by such as Ruvy don't exactly serve well the Jewish cause but tend to add fuel to the fire. There is a certain arrogance there which, how shall I say? defines the target.
Chris was right in saying that Ruvy's views aren't that different from those of the terrorists he despises. They're are the polar opposites, that's all.
29 - The Obnoxious American
Or perhaps he is just affected so by the hatred that this is his response. As I said, knowing what we know affects us. Growing up with our elders, people you care about, and seeing first hand the serial numbers tatooed on their arms, understanding why those numbers were tatooed on them, and worse, knowing that it can happen again, it impacts how you see the world.
How many times have we heard that we must understand the issues that caused terrorists to attack us on 9/11, rather than completely blame the Taliban and Al Qaeda?
Yet the same is never said about Jews who rather than go willingly to the slaughter stand and fight for who they are, and take an aggressive stance than a passive one. Ask how did Ruvy get this way? Is is because he is crazy? Or perhaps he is just being realistic given the environment around him. As a fellow Jews, I'd have to say realistic.
30 - Clavos
Doc #23:
Anti-Jewish sentiment long survived WW II in this country.
Well after the war was over, my parents, who were born and raised in NYC, often visited my mother's family there while on vacation from Mexico.
My parents' best friends back then (and until all died many years later) were a Jewish couple. When they all went out together (mostly in the forties and fifties), the number of places accessible to them were much reduced because of anti-Jewish discriminatory practices. Such places included private clubs of which my parents were members, and a number of public restaurants, nightclubs, etc.
As recently as the late fifties, Jews were discriminated against by real estate agents in the Ft. Lauderdale, Florida and rarely were able to buy or rent housing in that city.
At this moment, I'm sitting in the surgical waiting room of a hospital in Miami Beach waiting for my wife to come out of a minor procedure. The hospital, named Mt. Sinai, was founded in the fifties by a group of Jewish physicians who were being refused privileges in gentile hospitals.
Anti-Jewish sentiment is still very much alive and well in this country: as OA says above, most people nowadays won't openly admit to any kind of prejudice, but it's still there.
Another example: at least in this area (South Florida) Jewish Temples are regularly desecrated with anti-Jewish graffiti.
31 - The Obnoxious American
One last comment here, a recent phenom in NYC (as well as the other coast) is the "self hating jew". These are the types that protest Israel for defending herself against Palestinian terrorists. These poor poor folks. To be honest, I can't stand them.
If you are a Jew and you've protested Israel, you are either so damaged from anti-semitism that you are in a permanent passive crouch, an extreme form of stockholm syndrom, or you are totally ignorant. In either case, these Jews should be fully ashamed of themselves. I just can't understand it.
32 - roger nowosielski
Fair enough, your last comment. I can't even begin to think what it would be like if I were an African-American and the kind of prejudice I'd face. I'm certain it would be traumatic and it would change me beyond recognition - how, I'm not able to say. But I'm certain I couldn't be the person I am today. Better perhaps, but probably worse.
I must count myself fortunate to have been spared this. But I am not, therefore, unsympathetic with Ruvy's point of view.
The odd thing, I lived in Israel for two years, in the sixties. And the locals, the Sabras, didn't carry any chip on their shoulder. They all were as proud and untarnished as any human. So how did it happen that these attitudes were allowed to degenerate (as in Ruvy's case, e.g.) to the level of victimhood. That's the tragedy. It should have never come to that.
33 - Clavos
Another point:
I believe that ant-Jewish prejudice worldwide, while temporarily suppressed from being open (except, of course in the Arabian Peninsula), is still so strong, that, were it to become no longer unfashionable again, new purges might result.
In fact, I believe that prejudice against Jews far surpasses any other racial prejudice: it has literally lasted for millenia and has been practiced at one time or another, everywhere in the world.
Even here in the USA.
If I were Jewish, I would never let my guard down.
34 - The Obnoxious American
"I'm certain it would be traumatic and it would change me beyond recognition - how, I'm not able to say."
You might resemble Ruvy in some ways, or worse yet(GASP) me :>
But if you want a sense for what prejudice is like I bet you can get a flavor for it in Iran or Saudi Arabia. But for your personal safety, I wouldn't recommend that. Thanks Roger for being empathic, it's an uncommon quality, especially here.
35 - roger nowosielski
Well, I never have, Clavos - even though I'm only in part. Some sixth sense tells me it would not be the wise thing to do.
36 - roger nowosielski
I was born in Poland, OA, where anti-Semitism was (if not still is) at its strongest. Consequently, I have since put it out of my mind. It's just images to me, nothing more.
37 - The Obnoxious American
Clavos,
I tend to agree, though I won't be so self important to say that the prejudice my people face is worse than anyone elses.
But in terms of letting the guard down, it's true. I can't tell you how many times I meet someone new, get to know them and become friendly, only weeks or months later for them to drop an anti semetic comment. And it's at that moment that I now have to decide what to do. Was the comment made in jest or does it represent something worse. Do I fight the person or save myself for a more important battle.
When I first moved into this neighborhood, we became friendly with a gay couple next door. Two very nice guys, a little crazy but not any crazier than we. I never really talked religion or anything like that but one day, one of the neighbors was talking about a mutual acqaintance and said, "he's not too cheap for a Jew." Sad and depressing, because I like these people but I can't ever see them again in the same light. And I can't kick the guys ass because he lives next door. Not to mention that as gay people, they must understand prejudice just as much as I do. How could they do this.
It's not the only neighbor in this location where it's happened. You start to feel this bunker mentality.
My wife is christian, and she was brought up to believe that as a child of Jesus, she too is Jewish (I respect her faith and have never asked her to convert, nor will I). She's been a witness to various situations such as this. I can only imagine what she sometimes thinks about it. Whether she regrets marrying a Jew because of the hatred. I know she doesn't. She is a good woman and loves me. But why should she have to bear this burden? It's just not right.
38 - The Obnoxious American
Roger,
So your Polish? I got a whole lot of Polish jokes...Just kidding! See you're no newbie to prejudice.
My brother in law is half Polish, and when I first met him he made a bunch of Polish jokes which to be honest made me uncomfortable. Then I realized he is Polish. He's a cool guy.
39 - Dr Dreadful
You're kidding right doc?
No, not at all, Obnox, although I haven't lived in the UK since 2001 so I don't have my finger on the pulse so much. I will observe that a poll which asks leading questions like that is almost bound to show a higher level of prejudice against Jews. All I can say is that I haven't observed it. Not among my friends or work colleagues, and my parents certainly never expressed anti-Jewish sentiments - whether that was because of the family history, though, I couldn't say.
As for racism, yes, I do know a number of people who are actively racist. There are one or two of them on this website.
But Clavos is right that anti-Semitism is a peculiarly resilient form of prejudice. I suppose it goes to show how most humans don't exactly shine in the field of critical thinking. The classic excuse in the western world for persecuting Jews, of course, is that 'they' supposedly sold Our Savior down the river. It never seems to occur to such folks that if 'they' hadn't done so, there wouldn't have been a Savior in the first place...
40 - roger nowosielski
Well, in my personal experience, I had to get to the point of getting to know the woman real good to admit I have some Jewish blood in me. And by that time, it was all OK. Of late, however, I'm less careful of "being so tainted," because I've grown in self-confidence. So as far as I am concerned, I'm saying to myself "fuck it."
In short, I can deal now with this bullshit.
41 - roger nowosielski
Such jokes, IMO, OA, are mostly an attempt at PC before PC became de rigueur. Not that I mind them, but all I see in them is one-upmanship, a rather cheap if not cowardly way to say what you really think. Part of our democratic culture, I guess, and mixing with hoi poloi.
So you've got to give as well as receive.
42 - Baronius
OA, I love that bullet point, "Police: More Jewish attack victims than Muslims despite bigger Muslim population". Is the author naive or blind?
43 - The Obnoxious American
Roger, true enough. And please don't think I am some humorless slob. I laugh at Jewish jokes, I laugh at jokes about George Bush. As much as I hated seeing Sarah Palin lampooned on SNL, I loved the humor of the show and eagerly watched week after week. I appreciated their bi-partisan approach to humor. Sadly, SNL's bi-partisanship seemed to die that one episode with Dan Ackroyd and has been missing ever since.
And David Letterman, to date, has not followed his "Great Moments in Presidential Speeches" with an Obama version, even though there has been plenty of material for that. It's cool when humor goes both ways, not so cool when it doesn't.
44 - Dr Dreadful
I agree, Obnox. There's a motherlode of humorous material to be mined from the Obama administration, whether you support his policies or not.
I also laugh at Jewish jokes. Not anti-Semitic jokes, you understand, but the ones Jews tell about themselves. Jewish humor is among the richest in the world.
45 - roger nowosielski
Well, the main thing, OA, is to be able to rise above bitterness. If anything, it's that which I think is Ruvy's undoing: if he could just do that, he'd be OK, in addition to being able to communicate more clearly and elicit more support for his cause.
But who am I to say since I'm not in his shoes.
46 - The Obnoxious American
Doc, Agreed, many great self deprecating Jewish commedians, Woody Allen is probably the king of it, embodying the joke to a degree. Jackie Mason, Mel Brooks, the list goes on and on.
Chris Rock is another one who makes un-PC jokes, about both blacks and whites and I love the man. He's even made fun of Obama a few times which he deserves much credit for.
So when someone makes an offhanded Jew comment, I have to stop myself and say are they just trying to be humorous? Or was that actually meant to offend? I guess the answer is we all need to get a sense of humor and read people's actions rather than words, which after all is the Jewish way.
Roger,
Agreed, Ruvy can be bitter at times. Also agreed that neither of us are in his shoes, so from my view I try not to judge. However, it would be nice if he stopped lambasting me for living in the USA :>
47 - Baronius
OA, I watched Letterman's opening monologue recently. He did about 6 Bush jokes, 2 Cheney jokes, and one joke about Bill Clinton chasing women. No Obama jokes. Some people think he's not touching Obama out of bias, or fear of insulting a black man, but I'm starting to wonder if he's just stale. I mean, Bill Clinton?
48 - The Obnoxious American
Baronius, Agreed. And I grew up on Letterman. I attended the taping of the show two different times when he was still at NBC! Last summer, saw the taping of his show at the Ed Sullivan Theater. So if anything my bias is pro Letterman. Sadly, these days I have a real tough time watching him because of his bias for Obama.
49 - Dr Dreadful
Obnox: I guess the answer is we all need to get a sense of humor and read people's actions rather than words
I think it's always better to take things in context rather than just what is being said. Granted that if you don't know the person that well, it's difficult to judge whether they habitually make Jew jokes, actually are Jewish, or simply had a verbal Hershey squ!rt.
Baronius: I mean, Bill Clinton?
If Letterman starts making Eleanor Roosevelt jokes you know he's in trouble.
50 - Dr Dreadful
Apparently Akismet deems that
s q u i r t
is a banned word.
Bloody porn spammers...
51 - Baronius
And yet the word "porn" strolls right through.
52 - Clavos
Akismet isn't just about porn spammers -- c a s i n o won't go through without mods, either.
53 - Dr Dreadful
No-one said Akismet had any logic or sense to it, Baronius. Case in point: when I added the name of a certain erectile dysfunction drug as a banned word because of persistent spamming, only to discover that a word describing a certaIn left-wing political philosophy was also now banned because it contained within it the name of the drug...
...I think we all know what I'm talking about.
54 - Clavos
...From which we can only conclude that being a left-winger results in erectile dysfunction, right?
55 - STM
Baronius: "My point is, the US, French, and British military weren't operating to the east of Berlin."
How did the French manage to creep in there. They surrendered in 1940 and made a deal with Hitler to set up an occupied zone with a new capital in Vichy, and didn't do much after the liberation of France except cause a drama over the liberation of Paris, which they insisted upon leading ()figuratively anyway) despite not having done much fighting previously.
As Doc points out too, they seem to have conveniently painted the anglo-americans out of the liberation of France, who actually were the liberators!
The main efforts of the French prior to that (as part of the British and later both the British and American armies as the Free French) were in North Africa and Italy, although at one stage in Syria the Vichy French were actually fighting the Poms (for a short time). Go figure.
In fact the Australians were sent to deal with them. I know this because one of my old mates, Charles (now deceased), was actually there before being transferred later in the war to the Pacific when all Aussie forces were brought home from North Africa. When he was sick in hospital a few years ago, I went to see him.
He'd cornered a wardsman ... he was as deaf as a post and from down the corridor I could hear him almost shouting: "Then we went up to Bardia (in Libya) and gave it to the Italians ... "
I knew then he was on the mend for the moment - and I've never seen anyone look as grateful at my arrival as that wardsman.
None of this is to underplay the sacrifice of the French in many areas, and I won't, but they DO underplay the sacrifice of others.
The Vichy regime also sent many thousands of French Jews to the camps.
The real sacrifice of the French was 20 uyears earlier in WWI, with over a million dead, which gives a clue as to why they weren't keen to have another go.
Also why the British weren't happy about another war, with similar casualty figures AND a smaller population. World War One virtually wiped out the sons of the British aristocracy, and almost every family in Britain had a dead, wounded or traumatised son.
Doc's right. Anti-semitism isn't something I ever noticed in the UK, and since their views tend to rub off on us in Oz, I'm inclined to believe, as there's no anti-semitism here that I've ever seen.
Ruvy has a shockingly skewed view of history.
56 - STM
OA: My understanding about the rise in attacks on Jews in the UK is that they are increasingly carried out by militant muslims or those radicalised elements sympathetic to the palestinian/muslim cause.
57 - STM
And I'm no stranger to prejudice either. I lived overseas as a boy and went to English schools, both in the UK and the mid-east. At first I copped it over there, then when I left, starting high school in Australia, I just about got one good smack in the mouth per day because of my English accent.
It settled down pretty quick, as the accent settled down to normal (sorry Doc:), but still ... I do know what it's like to be bullied and harassed.
It did teach me a few things though.
I'm a great believer in fighting back ... each and every time, no matter what - even if you get an absolute thumping. Everyone who smacked me in the mouth got one back. Some of them didn't care but at least if you fight back, people stop doing it after a while.
Or they at least think twice about it.
58 - Jordan Richardson
So what I'm concluding from a reading of the comments on this topic and others is that anti-Semitism in America is alive and well and we should be afraid of it but good old-fashioned racism is over and done with. Nice.
59 - Baronius
STM - It's always the English-speakers for you, isn't it? (Teasing.) Since I was talking about the Allies and the partition of Germany, I figured it'd be fair to mention the French. But I think my main point holds, that the chance to save the Jews of Europe was on the eastern front.
60 - Dr Dreadful
...as the accent settled down to normal (sorry Doc:)
No worries, mate!
(I actually do say that a bit.)
61 - Dr Dreadful
Incidentally, they're showing The Chaser's War on cable over here at the moment. Well, sort of - they've edited out all the skits that deal with Aussie politics, but it's still hilarious.
The APEC summit stunt was the best, of course.
62 - Jet
Doc has an accent?
63 - STM
Baronious: "STM - It's always the English-speakers for you, isn't it? (Teasing.)"
Mostly, yes ...
I'm a great believer in freedom through rule of law, and I don't understand why any of us should be made to feel guilty - or feel guilty at all - for making the world a much better place.
I know you're just revving me up Baron, but there's truth in my view.
The ledger's in our favour, not the other way around.
64 - Jet
Doc, - S q u i r t - is the name of a soft drink here, which is why the damned thing thinks it's spam... though I'm not sure they have it on the west coast.
65 - Dr Dreadful
No, Jet, I don't have an accent - you all do!
66 - Dr Dreadful
And Jet, somehow I don't think that's the reason...
67 - Jet
No me, from the way I'm usually stereotyped, I speak the "Queens'" English, though you'd never know it to actually listen to me.
By the way Clavos has the opposite problem of erectile dysfunction, his won't go down every time he get's near a bank.
68 - Jet
In fact Clavos had to resort to e-mailing his stock broker because he'd get all out of breath on the phone.
69 - leighann
Up until my 20's I used the expression "jewing them down" when I was speaking of haggling over a price. I did it becuase I did not understand what I was saying. It was just an expression that I had heard and used. I did not make the connection (I am ashamed to say) until one of my aunts heard me say it and told me that I would have to answer to a Jew one day. I then made the connection that it was a reference to the Jewish race. I never said it again. My point is that it may be out of ignorance sometimes. I also did not know that "gypped" referred to Gypsies. I had also said that many times.
Anti-semitism still exists, I live in TN and hear it often (I always challenge it). From what I understand the skin-heads hate Jews.
I often wonder how people could have done the things that they have done. I can just about fathom one crazy person like Hitler being that satanic but then there were all of his men who were killing men, women and babies! I will never understand that. It bothers me to the point that I think about it and worry about it all of the time. No one is safe from that kind of evil. Our true arrogance is in thinking for even a second that we are.
I also do not understand hating people who had nothing to do with it. Women have been treated badly since the beginning of time. Raped, beaten and killed. I myself was sexually abused by a couple of men when I was a child. Do I now hate men or think that they should all pay for what a few did? Of course not, that is rediculous.
Anyway, I have been researching my family a bit and I have a grandmother from Germany named Mary Singer. Is this a German name?
Leighann
70 - STM
BTW, it's Anzac Day (veterans day) here today.
We don't forget either, Ruve.
71 - STM
Doc: "No, Jet, I don't have an accent - you all do!"
Lol. I don't know how you can understand a word the buggers say over there, Doc. It's almost incomprehensible.
Most American accents sound like someone trying to strangle a cat, and not having much success :)
72 - STM
Doc: "The Chaser's War"
Did they cut out the bits where they went on the streets and armed with a map of the world, asked Americans questions about world politics.
One sketch is hilarious.
It has Tasmania marked as South Korea and mainland Australia as North Korea.
One guy says: "Hey, lookin' at that, I've just realised ... North Korea is much bigger than South Korea, shee-it".
73 - Dr Dreadful
I don't think they've played that one yet, but this week they did the one where their 'American correspondent' stops people on the streets of New York to ask if they know what date 9/11 happened on.
Then there's Julian Morrow's 'Citizen's Infringement Officer' where he goes round giving people tickets for having a wanky tattoo or giving their baby a crap name.
Great stuff.
74 - STM
They also book a parking officer.
75 - Jet
First Ruvy, now you two. Did I miss a memo that this was anti-American week?