U.S. official confirms that the Bush administration endorses waterboarding enemy detainees, but also as a training method for U.S. soldiers.
While covering CIA Director Michael V. Hayden’s testimony on CIA interrogation methods, Greg Miller, a Los Angeles Times reporter, revealed that a senior U.S. Intelligence official stated that, “Tens of thousands of American Air Force and naval airmen were waterboarded as part of their survival training.”…
Article comments
126 - Jet in Columbus
The Bush administration's policy of "Do as I say not as I do" has lost us a lot of worldwide respect.
127 - Jet in Columbus
Dave you've my permission to use my "But that's only my opinion" tag line from time to time if needed.......
128 - Pablo
I agree wholeheartedly with Jet's above comment regarding Dave.
129 - Clavos
troll 122,
Now there's an intriguing little tidbit.
C
130 - Jet in Columbus
Troll brings up an interesting point of conversation that's been floating around here for a while but never talked about.
We can't seem to talk about personal experiences unless we can link to some other source to back it up.
Troll says he has first hand experience with waterboarding during the Vietnam era. Why can't he make that statement, or write an article about it as a factual report, without half of this site saying, "We want concrete proof of this" because your word isn't good enough, all but calling us liars if we try.
It's very frustrating at times.
I-like-a few on this site could tell you of experiences first hand with near death, encounters with celebrities in my travels, and UFO's that curl your hair, because I grew up near the airforce base in Pittsburgh, my father was in the airforce ahd could lay his hands on photos that the world never saw, and yet unless I have someone to back up what I know are facts, I'm not allowed to write about it.
We're sorry but if you want to publish this article you'll need to link some of what you're asserting to prove they're facts...
131 - Pablo
I hardly find it surprising that waterboarding was used in Vietnam, as well at the Mylai incident, and napalming.
The fact is that humans have been torturing other humans since the dawn of time, this however does not make it right, and it remains barbaric and inhumane.
I do find it ironic that one of the first things some people do when talking about how evil certain regimes are; nazis, red china, pol pot etc, is to almost invariable bring up the use of torture as one of the primary examples of barbarism.
However when we do it, now that is a different story. After all we only do it to protect "freedom" and "democracy". I suggest to those of you that do approve of waterboarding, that when you engage or approve of such cruelty you lessen yourselves as human, and are on the road to becoming exactly what you supposedly deplore.
I do wonder being the curious person that I am if one could do an actual poll. Taking capital punishment as an example, and those that approve of it; what percentage of such people also approve of using torture. As opposed to those that are against capital punishment, and are opposed to torture. I suggest that there is a correlation, and that the people that are pro capital punishment, are far more likely to also believe in using torture.
I would like to reference Mr. John Yoo former Justice Department official with the Office of Legal Counsel, who aided in writing the USA Patriot Act and whos legal memos were used in authorizing torture. On Nov 3rd 2006 at the Baker Institute Student Forum, in answering a question, said that there is no law or treaty to prevent the President from authorizing crushing the testicles of a child in front of their parents.
John Yoo on torture
This to me shows how far we have fallen as a nation, and that a former public official would utter such a statement, is appalling. According to Mr. Yoo's opinion there is absolutely nothing that a president cannot do to anybody in prosecuting an undeclared war. This is one of the reasons that I feel we are in big trouble as a nation and headed for tyranny.
132 - Clavos
So, troll,
Care to elaborate (maybe just a little)?
133 - troll
Clavos - I think that I've mentioned that when I was a kid training design was my thing...in my early twenties I fell in with a group of ex-HumRRO types and ended up doing contract work for the Army Research Institute (amongst others) in the final years of the 'police action'
it was a pretty dark nihilistic period during which I learned lots of dirty secrets about Americans and their ways of warfare
134 - troll
(not to mention myself)
135 - STM
I'd be happy with waterboarding if they used beer.
136 - Dr Dreadful
That wouldn't be waterboarding, Stan. It'd be Friday night at an average American college frat house.
137 - STM
Except they don't have access to proper beer, the poor luvs
138 - Clavos
Thanks, troll.
I hadn't seen that before (maybe before my time?).
Anyway, I think I understand, based on my own experiences at the time, where you're coming from, especially the part about introspection...
BTW, I have a cousin who does training design for the Navy; he's a PhD in psychology and doesn't go into a lot of detail about what his job entails.
139 - bliffle
Jim Hightower says that McKasey hornswaggled us on waterboarding by first fooling Shumer and Feinstein.
cf.: jim hightower
140 - Clavos
Here's a good quote from bliffle's citation:
"Thus, gullible as two rubes at a medicine show, Schumer and Feinstein gave Mukasey the votes he needed to win confirmation." (emphasis added)
141 - Dave Nalle
Shummer and Feinstein are hardly the sharpest tools in the shed, but then Jim Hightower is hardly a source of anything resembling objective reporting.
Dave
142 - Dave Nalle
What the Mukasey/administration position on Waterboarding comes down to is that they claim the right to keep it as an option while at the same time promising that it will not be used except in situations of the direst threat - such as when the only way to find out where a bomb that's about to go off can be found... your basic Jack Bauer scenarios.
I think a lot of people like Shumer and Feinstein and many others are comfortable with this. Clearly some folks don't have that much faith in the CIA.
Dave
143 - Clavos
"Jim Hightower is hardly a source of anything resembling objective reporting."
Yeah, that's pretty obvious...
144 - Jet in Columbus
Dave, considering that Bush thinks of himself as elected by god, and the fact that he's defying 2005’s Detainee Treatment Act, the Military Commissions Act of 2006, and also a Supreme Court ruling against him, do you seriously believe that he's going hold to his promise "that it will not be used except in situations of the direst threat".
We're talking about a president that is intentionally keeping a false war based on faulty intelligence and out and out lies
and why?
So he can keep his "war time" presidential powers.
145 - STM
One of my mates worked for the Water Board back in the '70s. He said at the time it was torture.
Tough way to make a living, especially with all the standing around they had to do whilst leaning on their shovels.
He said when they were trying to look busy, they used to poke sticks into drains.
146 - Dr Dreadful
Ah, yes, the good old 70s. Efficiency and cost-effectiveness were just something that happened to other people back then, weren't they?
147 - Jet in Columbus
You mean they had water meters back then?
148 - Dave Nalle
and the fact that he's defying 2005's Detainee Treatment Act, the Military Commissions Act of 2006, and also a Supreme Court ruling against him,
All of those things have very specific limitations which Bush has argued his way around relatively effectively. None of them apply explicitly to waterboarding, so there is a handy little gray area.
do you seriously believe that he's going hold to his promise "that it will not be used except in situations of the direst threat".
Bush isn't really the one to hold accountable. It's what the CIA and the military and the DOJ do which matters - and how much we trust them, not Bush.
We're talking about a president that is intentionally keeping a false war based on faulty intelligence and out and out lies
I'm not in a position to second-guess Bush's choice to downplay certain aspects of the intelligence surrounding the Iraq invasion and rely instead on weaker evidence. I can think of a number of reasons, though.
Dave
149 - Jet in Columbus
oh never mind
150 - STM
Yeah, they did Jet ... but I think from memory we paid a standard rate per household, regardless of how much water was used. That is why every second house in Australia has a swimming pool.
These days, what with the drought and all, water restrictions have been pretty tight until recently.
I was banned from watering my garden more than twice a week, and it had to be on Sundays and Wednesdays, after sunset.
Up north and over on the west coast, I believe they were banned from watering their lawns altogether.
Water can be a scarce commodity on this continent ... but it does go in cycles.
Right now, it's been pis.ing down for about two months after a six-year drought.
All I can say is, the old Water Board was good compared to the current mob.
So bring back the Water Board I say!!
151 - Jet in Columbus
Remind me to label my jokes so people know when to laugh. I've seen news reports of huge dust storms so I guess waterboarding has nothing to do with surfing?
152 - Jet in Columbus
This should be fun, the Senate just passed an intelligence bill that included forbiding waterboarding-
I'd call that a slap in the face at Bush who just announced his assertion that he'll use it if he wants to laws and Supreme court be damned.
153 - Dave Nalle
So the bill explicitly forbids waterboarding and describes the activity and provides NO exceptions at all?
Got a bill number?
Dave
154 - Jet in Columbus
Okay Dave,
Click here to read the entire article...
(CBS/AP) The White House said today that President Bush will veto a measure that would ban the CIA from using what the administration describes as "enhanced interrogation methods" on terror suspects.
The provision, part of a broad intelligence authorization bill passed by the House and Senate, would prohibit any interrogation techniques to be used on prisoners that are not authorized or condoned by the U.S. Army Field Manual.
CBS News White House Correspondent Mark Knoller reports that the White House is confident that the president's veto would be sustained.
The bill passed the Senate by a vote of 51 to 45; 5 Republicans joined 45 Democrats and 1 independent in favor of the ban.
White House press secretary Dana Perino characterized the confrontation in partisan terms, saying Americans will have to choose between supporting a ban on waterboarding and protecting national security: "They'll have to ask themselves, 'Do you trust the intelligence community more than you trust Democrats who are beholden to their left wing?' And that's the debate that this country is going to have."
Gee I hope no one consideres this old news...
155 - Jet in Columbus
According to one of the other articles I read, the house passed it 222-199 Last December (old news again (sigh)) but here's something interesting, John McCain, himself a victim of torture whilst a POW voted against the bill banning waterboarding and other methods of torture!!!!?
Sounds to me like the hypocritical Senator is trying to kiss a few asses with the far-right wing in order to get elected.
advantage in setting up a presidential veto. The bill was approved 51 to 45 in the Senate after passing the House in December, 222 to 199. Neither margin would be sufficient to override a veto.
If I recall right McCain led a movement in the senate to get it banned. Is this considered the deadly practice of "flip-flopping?" on a grand scale?
but of course that's only my opinion!
... or is it?
156 - Jet in Columbus
Yes, Yes I know...
157 - Clavos
From the article, it would appear that the short answer to your question(s) Dave, is no.
The Bill obligates the CIA to follow the dictates of the Army Field Manual; it doesn't go into specifics as to prohibitions.
It's part of a much broader intelligence bill, and even McCain is opposed to it.
158 - Jet in Columbus
Uh Clavos, did you read or just scan?
"McCain had earlier sponsored the 2006 Detainee Treatment Act which included a ban on waterboarding, which President Bush invalidated by a signing statement giving himself the authority to ignore it."
159 - Clavos
I read it, Jet.
The 2006 Detainee Treatment Act is another piece of legislation, which as its name states, was passed in 2006, only to be vetoed by GWB.
As you pointed out above, McCain is opposed to the current bill.
160 - Jet in Columbus
we'll see how the evening news handles it.
161 - Jet in Columbus
Bush has vetoed legislation meant to ban the CIA from using waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics because it "would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror."
162 - bliffle
Sure, torture has it's critics because it disgusts the general public and it never yields useful results, but look on the bright side: it improves the economy by providing jobs for unemployed torturers. How can you argue with that?
163 - Jet in Columbus
You're absolutely right Bliff. How could I be so thougtless not to think of that. Now what did I do with my leather????
164 - bliffle
The President has declared that the proper response to 9/11 is to go shopping. Well, how can torturers go shopping if they don't have money?
165 - Jet in Columbus
He's hoping we'll all buy stock in Haliburton?
166 - Jet in Columbus
Actually Bliff, If we did that most of the money would go to China. Don't forget Bush I was the ambassador to China before he became the Chief of the CIA