It's like picking at a scab or watching a NASCAR car flipping end over end. We just can't look away from the Democratic primary.
My very politically astute mother urged me not to write this article, deriding it as mere 'common wisdom' and perhaps beneath the high quality of punditry which I aspire to maintain. But I'm afraid the thought keeps nagging at me and I can't resist, even if I'm stating something which may seem a bit facile and even obvious to some.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Michael J. West
As for my supposed 'wishful thinking', it doesn't really factor in here. I'm just observing things as they are.
Well...no, you aren't, really, Dave. You're making guesses at the way things might be, or might soon be, re the superdelegates and the convention. When you use phrases like "quite likely to" or "could very well be," you're dealing in assumptions, not facts.
I think there's a big elephant (no pu intended) in the room that we're all avoiding: namely, what will Richard "separate nations for separate races" Brodie do if Obama becomes president?
Oh, and JOM...I'm sure I'm wasting my time by trying, here, but you might start by getting a dictionary and looking up "ideological."
27 - El Bicho
Yeah, but first you have to explain what a dictionary is.
28 - JustOneMan
Mikey and El Bicho..
[Edited. JOM, please do not change other commenters' names into insults. Thank you.
Assistant Comments Editor]
Obviously you both have a literacy problem...
An ideology is an organized collection of ideas. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society. The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society through a normative thought process.
Like I said...
Pledging to "change the foundation of the way politics are conducted in Washington" and allowing minorities a real place of power at the political table (as the Bush administration has demonstrated) is a HUGE shift in DUMBOCRATIC IDEOLOGY...
The end is near for the old line racist of the left..They just don't know it yet...
JOM - "For Change as long as it shuts you idiots up!"
29 - Baritone
I love it when a right winger makes racist accusations against the left. What comes to mind is something about a pot and a kettle.
Actually, it just pisses me off. The overwhelming majority of old line racist democrats are now died in the wool republicans. That shift started in earnest in the mid-1960s and has continued since. The democratic party embraced the civil rights movement while republicans shrank back into their own abyss of racial hatred where many have remained. Don't give me any bullshit about significant racism amongst democrats.
It will likely be years before the republicans will open up their retentive assholes and nominate anyone not an aging white protestant male. The heart of American racism now beats in the GOP. Republicans have inherited the good old boy network and they're welcome to it.
B-tone
30 - rick
my comments not welcome.. i quess this is not really a public opion blog!
31 - Dr Dreadful
Hmmm...
When JOM suddenly gets all articulate, it's time to go to Wikipedia and find out whether he just lifted his comment #28 directly from their entry on 'ideology'...
Well - whaddaya know!
32 - Baritone
rick,
Why do you say that? Did you have trouble posting? If that's the case, you have joined the club. Posting is sometimes slow and difficult. It plays games with you.
As long as what you have to say is not a personal attack, most anything you write is welcome here. You may get a lot of flack for whatever your opinions might be, but that's what this place is all about.
B-tone
33 - Dave Nalle
Well...no, you aren't, really, Dave. You're making guesses at the way things might be, or might soon be, re the superdelegates and the convention. When you use phrases like "quite likely to" or "could very well be," you're dealing in assumptions, not facts.
Ok, but that's still not 'wishful thinking'. I'm not taking a particular position here or advocating anything, just pointing out possibilities.
I think there's a big elephant (no pu intended) in the room that we're all avoiding: namely, what will Richard "separate nations for separate races" Brodie do if Obama becomes president?
Group suicide?
But seriously, there's a reason why the FBI ranks domestic terrorism higher than al Qaeda as a potential threat.
Dave
34 - Dave Nalle
And Baritone, while blatant individual racism may be on the decline in the Democratic party, the institutionalized racism on which the party's power structure is based hasn't gone anywhere. You can declare yourself and your party lilly white when you no longer depend on the votes of minorities and the poor who are deliberately maintained as clients of the party and the state so that they will remain loyal democratic voters.
As for the racist infiltration of the GOP, clearly they've been marked and their days are numbered.
Dave
35 - George Bush
I could not have thought of a better way to win...
Thanks Democrates
36 - JustOneMan
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] ..I didnt credit Wikki...but rather than argue the facts you attack the messenger...
Just this AM on "Morning Joe" all of the Clintonistas were out there claiming that Hillary is being descriminated against by the media because she is a women. "There are things you can say about a women BUT not about a black man." And dont forget Ed Rendel "Some whites arent ready to vote for a black." This doesnt get any better than this!!!Imagine an elected Republican or their "people" saying this...they would be forced to apologize and forced to resign...
I think Hillary and the Dumbocratic leadership just got the endorsement of the NAAWP National Association for the Advancement of White People. Put on your white sheets boys we are having a Dumbocratic campaign rally!
JOM "The Dumbocrats - Setting back race relations 20 years and counting"
37 - JustOneMan
BREAKING NEWS
David Duke to endorse Hillary!
JOM
38 - Baritone
It's so silly of me. I keep forgeting that the republicans are pure of heart, the shining star that periodically cleanses the nation of all that it perceives as not "right" with the country.
So, Dave, the reps are going to rid itself of all evangelicals and all racists? Do I have that right? So, that will leave you and, uh, who else? (I am assuming of course as you are a professed atheist (as I am,) that you are not an evangelical, nor a racist.)
There is no more "institutionalized racism" amongst dems than the reps. Additionally, the reps are also slimed with their exploitation of the religious right who they now find it more propitious to spurn.
"I'm not taking a particular position here or advocating anything, just pointing out possibilities."
Yeah, right! Your visceral hatred of HC has no influence on your prognostications? Give me a break.
B-tone
39 - Clavos
"Just this AM on "Morning Joe" all of the Clintonistas were out there claiming that Hillary is being descriminated against by the media because she is a women." (emphasis added)
Even though she does have two faces, she's still just one woman. (Thank Zeus!)
40 - Lee Richards
McCain has a much larger problem than either Obama or Clinton would have in the election. He'll never be conservative enough for the conservatives he needs in order to win, without alienating the moderates and independents he needs in order to win.
41 - Dr Dreadful
..I didnt credit Wikki...
You can't even spell Wiki.
but rather than argue the facts you attack the messenger...
Something you never do, of course, JOM. Actually, I believe I've already argued the facts, at #17.
Just this AM on "Morning Joe"...
It might be a good idea for you to stop listening to "Morning Joe". It's clearly not a great workout for your intellect. The statements you regularly make here are at least as dumb as your selection of calls from this morning's show.
Do you really think the numbskulls who call in to radio talk shows represent the core values of any party? Or are they just parroting the dumbass hosts and pundits on those very same shows?
Again, Obama promising to change the way things are done in Washington is an idea, not an ideology. Subtle but significant difference. Besides, all presidential candidates are say things like that. Nobody's going to get elected on a platform of carrying on with things exactly the same way Bush has been doing them.
I think Hillary and the Dumbocratic leadership just got the endorsement of the NAAWP National Association for the Advancement of White People.
And I think you're projecting.
Put on your white sheets boys we are having a Dumbocratic campaign rally!
Yup.
42 - zingzing
jom, le bomb: "And dont forget Ed Rendel "Some whites arent ready to vote for a black." This doesnt get any better than this!!!Imagine an elected Republican or their "people" saying this...they would be forced to apologize and forced to resign..."
it's the truth... some whites AREN'T ready to vote for a black man. the republicans don't even need to make such statements, because it's kind of obvious at the national level. still, i doubt that anyone is thinking rendel is making a racist statement... because he's not.
as for your "this doesnt get any better than this!!!" statement, well... that would be absolutely true.
43 - JustOneMan
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
Morning Joe is on MSNBC hosted by Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
44 - Baritone
I do believe that there is an underlying gender issue regarding Clinton just as there is doubtless an underlying racial issue regarding Obama.
Of course there are those who will openly and unashamedly admit to bigotry regarding women and/or people of color. But, the majority of people will keep such notions to themselves, except perhaps when they enter the voting booth.
Admit it or not, there is a strong dislike of Hillary simply because she is a strong woman. She is regarded as a bitch for many of the things she has said and done; things for which a man would have been characterized as, well, just being manly.
There are a lot of people, both men and women who can't abide a dominant woman. As witness, look at many of the various fundamentalist religious organizations, chief among them the SBC, which have in recent years codified the subservient role of women under the dominance of men. Old biblical bullshit.
Actually, gender issues predate racial issues, and are, in some respects, more deeply entrenched and, consequently, more difficult to overcome.
B-tone
45 - Lee Richards
Age would be every bit as much of a factor in this election as race or sex would be, for image alone, if for no other more practical reason.
Kennedy looked younger and more energetic on TV than Nixon,(even though he was in poorer health.) Reagan WAS old, but didn't look it.
McCain might outlive and be able to outhink us all, but he sure doesn't look or sound like it much of the time, and that will count to our youth-oriented culture. Being racially mixed or female won't count against a candidate any more than being perceived as a(really)senior-citizen.
And for every die-hard racist out there who'd never vote for a non-white candidate, there are 5 or 10 young, minority, or anti-Bush voters who would.
46 - troll
are you guys doing radio this afternoon - ?
47 - Clavos
I disagree with you, B-tone.
While it may be true that there is an underlying bias against females in politics on the part of the electorate, I don't think it's widespread enough to stop a qualified woman who is well perceived by a large enough portion of the electorate from getting elected.
The assumed underlying bias against African Americans certainly isn't hindering Obama. No, I think prejudice in this country is far less than is normally assumed these days.
IMO, Hillary is losing (and will likely lose) in the nomination race much more because of the persona she projects, which is that of a grasping, super ambitious person (not woman) who will stop at nothing and stoop to wherever necessary to get elected.
There is (again, IMO) also a certain perception on the part of substantial elements of the electorate that the Clinton campaign is a twofer, and many are opposed to that idea on ideological grounds.
It is these factors plus the ineffable odor of sleaze around the Clinton campaign that is losing it for her, and I think she's finally realized it, which is why she stepped on Bill and fired her top two campaign managers.
To attribute her failure to an anti-woman bias misses the real reasons, and excuses her own (and Bill's and her campaign staff's) missteps, when in fact, she appears to be losing the race on her own, not because she's a woman.
48 - El Bicho
"Obviously you both have a literacy problem"
This coming from a guy who writes the sentence "Hillary is being *descriminated* against by the media because she is *a women*."
Go Wiki "literacy". What's the O/U line on the next time this child gets another BC timeout?
JOM "Setting back humanity 100 years and counting"
49 - Dr Dreadful
My, my. You're getting as bad as Moonraven, JOM. Trying to fill the gap she left in the market?
Based on the little that was NOT excised by our esteemed Mr Rose:
OK, so "Morning Joe" is a TV talk show, not a radio show. Big whoop. I don't waste my time on them because I just get annoyed. I prefer to spend it here on BC, where one can actually respond to things that are said, instead of just railing uselessly at one's [insert broadcast receiving device of choice here].
Your attempts to paint the Democratic Party as a bunch of racists ain't going to fly. This isn't the 1860s.
Look, there are going to be racist elements in any major political party, especially in a place like the US, where you only have two of them and they both - of necessity - accommodate a very broad church. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have a monopoly on them, nor is racism a driver of either party's policies.
50 - Dr Dreadful
Clavos sez: IMO, Hillary is losing (and will likely lose) in the nomination race much more because of the persona she projects, which is that of a grasping, super ambitious person (not woman) who will stop at nothing and stoop to wherever necessary to get elected.
Hmm. Perhaps. As Baritone pointed out, these are qualities which might not be perceived as undesirable if she were a man.
Then again, Mitt Romney projects a similar persona, and it hasn't done him much good either.
Really, you're all feeling your way a bit in this election. The Democratic Party is in pole position to win the presidency, and their last two candidates left standing possess physical qualities the American electorate has never had to consider seriously in that capacity before. Interesting times.
51 - Baritone
Doc,
Obviously, I agree with you. That the Dems are the first party to put forward a woman and an African-American as serious candidates,I think is great. None of us can truly guess the outcome (except Dave, of course,) but frankly, I think it will be a damn shame if the GOP wins in November. I would like to see a bit of history made come election day. I guess if McCain were to win the only bit of history being made would be the election of the oldest president ever. Whoopie!
Despite some statements to the contrary, I don't believe there is much difference to be found between Hillary and Barack. They may approach things from a different perspective, but the broad strokes of their policy positions are very similar. I would be happy with either of them winning in November. Of course, a Clinton win would afford me a bit of vengeful pleasure, but perhaps an Obama victory would ultimately be more satisfying - unless he blows it.
Clav,
I don't believe that either race or gender will be a major factor in the election, and in that I agree with you. But, just as Dave suggested after the New Hampshire vote, some of the underlying racial feelings may have risen to the surface as voters closed the curtain in the voting booth. If you recall, I didn't agree with Dave then (Now there's a surprise!,) but upon reflection I don't think the notion that race and gender might have an influence can be totally dismissed.
You and Dave and many others here at BC truly dislike Hillary and find it hard if not impossible to find anything positive about her. I don't share that opinion. Frankly, I'm not sure any woman could have risen to Hillary's level of prominence, especially in the political sphere, without being exceptionally hard driving and manipulative. There is no doubt that she is one determined woman.
B-tone
52 - REMF
"Then again, Mitt Romney projects a similar persona, and it hasn't done him much good either."
Hhmmm, interesting. Guess I've just never thought of Mitt "Mountain Meadows Massacre" Romney and Hillary "Monica Lewinsky's ex-boyfriend's wife" Clinton as being like two peas in a pod.
But it does make sense, since the Mormons believe in plural wives and Hillary has allowed multiple mistresses...
53 - JustOneMan
"Your attempts to paint the attempts to paint the Democratic Party as a bunch of racists"
Gee..all I do is report what the leadership of the main stream Dumbocrats are saying to every journalist and TV outlet that will talk to them "THEY DO NOT WANT A BLACK MAN" as president...
I am not making this up it is your party..
JOM "The Dumbocrats still keepin the Brother down"
54 - Dave Nalle
It's so silly of me. I keep forgeting that the republicans are pure of heart, the shining star that periodically cleanses the nation of all that it perceives as not "right" with the country.
I know you're being facetious, but in fact, if you look at history, that is EXACTLY the role which Republicans have played again and again. Look at Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower and Reagan. Their role as presidents was clearly to address government excess and abuse and set the country back on track.
So, Dave, the reps are going to rid itself of all evangelicals and all racists? Do I have that right?
I doubt it. But I do think there's a real surge to return to traditional Republican values which include toleration of an awful lot of diversity, so long as negative ideas held by individuals don't impact policy. The problem we've had is allowing those with other agendas to pull the party away from its core beliefs.
So, that will leave you and, uh, who else? (I am assuming of course as you are a professed atheist (as I am,) that you are not an evangelical, nor a racist.)
I'm especially not an evangelical atheist. Those guys scare me as much as evangelical Christians.
There is no more "institutionalized racism" amongst dems than the reps. Additionally, the reps are also slimed with their exploitation of the religious right who they now find it more propitious to spurn.
I didn't say the Republicans don't exploit certain groups too. But it just happens that Republican exploitation isn't based on keeping minorities separated from mainstream culture and keeping the poor dependent on government.
Yeah, right! Your visceral hatred of HC has no influence on your prognostications? Give me a break.
It didn't play much of a role in this article, anyway. And keep in mind that I share that hatred with most of the US population if you believe Hillary's negative ratings.
Dave
55 - Dr Dreadful
I am not making this up it is your party..
1. Yes, you are making it up.
2. It is not my party.
56 - Baritone
JOM,
Just WHO are these "main stream dumbocrats," and where are they saying these things? I live in a pretty red neck state - a republican haven, and, yet no dems here have made any such statements.
Dave,
"Evangelical atheists?" Nice invention.
"Their role as presidents was clearly to address government excess and abuse and set the country back on track."
And then the dems take office burdened with wreckage of the rep's ignoring the poor and now its war on science. Reagan's administration left us with record budget deficits eclipsed only by that we now have not to mention the ten trillion dollar national debt facing us by Bush & Co. Oh, yeah, the reps always make everything hunky dory.
B-tone
57 - Clavos
"Evangelical atheists" Is kind of an unusual (but somewhat poetic) construct.
As an atheist myself, I am made exceedingly uncomfortable by crusading atheists (Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Michael Newdow, e.g.) just as I am by theists who send missionaries out to the remote corners of the earth to convert the heathen, or those young men in white shirts and ties who knock on my door occasionally.
58 - JustOneMan
Ed Rendel Gov of PA
"I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate."
HINT HINT - This is a Dumbocratic primary - He is either talking about his fellow racist Dumbocrats or sending a clear message to Hillary's base -"Dont vote for the black guy!"
Rendell is one of Hillarys biggest and most visable supporters besides being one of the biggest Dumbocrats. In addition he is just one of the people in Clinton's campaign that have been criticized in recent weeks for raising Obama's race.
[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
JOM "The Dumbocrats - The Klan Party"
59 - zingzing
jom, quoting rendel: "I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate."
that's just a statement of fact.
"HINT HINT - This is a Dumbocratic primary - He is either talking about his fellow racist Dumbocrats or sending a clear message to Hillary's base -"Dont vote for the black guy!""
or maybe he's talking about white people. some people aren't going to vote for a black man. funny though, if the democrats are so full of racists, why is the black man winning in the primary?
i don't know if you've ever heard of such a thing, but "electability" is certainly a major issue when choosing a candidate to represent your party. i mean, let's face it... you guys ran a mentally-challenged redneck who got us into an unpopular war and likes torture and spying on american citizens and can't really speak the english language, and yet you still won. the dems are running a black man and a woman this time around. in order to win, the dems have to produce a candidate that can pull in some independent and even some fed-up republic votes.
but what's a worse detriment? (in terms of electability...) being black or being female? is it even a detriment anymore? i guess we'll find out.
the fact is that there are more dems than there are republicans in america. and yet, the republicans keep winning presidential elections, even when they put up an utter idiot. why? dems don't vote like republicans do. why not? i dunno. maybe we're lazy.
truth be told, mccain isn't the worst republican candidate i've ever seen. but i still don't want him to be our president.
the point is that rendel is not a racist for stating that some americans just won't vote for a black man. he may be a racist for all i know, but that statement doesn't prove anything except that rendel occasionally makes a true statement.
and your reading of his statement only proves that you can find racism in the dems even when it's not there.
60 - JustOneMan
Methinks thou protesteth too much....
I rest my case!
JOM -"The Dumbocrats - Racists in Denial"
61 - Dr Dreadful
Nothing's going to dissuade you, is it, JOM? Somehow, your brain cell has got hold of this bizarre idea that the Democrats are a racist party.
Tell me, is it the black presidential candidates, the affirmative action policies or the voting patterns of African-Americans that's confusing you?
62 - zingzing
good job there, jom. what a lawyer you'll be.
63 - JustOneMan
No its your rambling inane posts that make no fucking sense....
64 - William F. Butler
REMF -- Your ignorance and stupidity continue to amuse and entertain me. If that's what you had in mind, then thanks. If you were serious about Mitt "Mountain Meadows Massacre" Romney then your supposed thirty years knowing about the massacre has taught you nothing since NONE of Romney's ancestors were involved. Furthermore, Mormons have not officially practiced plural marriage for more than 100 years. Get up to speed on things REMF or continue to entertain people with your stupidity
65 - Baritone
I don't think Dave realizes just how demeaning his charge of democratic exploitation of minorities is to blacks, hispanics, etc. His charge implies that those supposedly being "exploited" by the evil racist democrats are hapless victims, unable to recognize how they are being used, or are unable or unwilling to do anything about it.
The fact is that the great majority of minorities in this country understand how it all works and they align primarily with the democrats as the party that carries their needs and concerns to the centers of government.
Julia Carson, the late Democratic Congresswoman from Indiana is a good example. While her detractors thought she was some kind of bafoon, she was a smart, savvy legislator who worked tirelessly for her district, primarily inner city Indianapolis. In the wake of her death, her grandson is favored to take her place for the remainder of her term in a special election in May, and just as likely to take the seat in the regular election in November. Ms. Carson maintained her seat in Congress for several terms owing to the enthusiastic support of her constituents - both black and white. None of the stiff necked white men who ran against her over the years was able to unseat her. Neither her's nor other such constituencies are being exploited by the democratic party. The democratic party is as much their party as it is anyone's.
As for JOM, I do believe he is trying to take up the slack left in the wake of Moonraven's departure. Hell, I kind of miss her. She was articulate at any rate.
B-tone
66 - Dan
Blacks are voting for Obama at about 80%. Hillary might as well be a Republican to them.
It's fun, and amusingly predictable, to watch blacks voting explicitly racial against a white liberal advocate of the charade of black empowerment through white male disposession.
Some good could come of this.
Perhaps the sensible people of all races and genders will be moved to abandon the party of hate and division.
67 - STM
Dave, I have sent an email to your website in relation to a story I've done. This is the only way I can now contact anyone at BC after being taken off the group email bizzo.
If you can reply I'd be appreciative. Cheers.
68 - Dave Nalle
I don't think Dave realizes just how demeaning his charge of democratic exploitation of minorities is to blacks, hispanics, etc. His charge implies that those supposedly being "exploited" by the evil racist democrats are hapless victims, unable to recognize how they are being used, or are unable or unwilling to do anything about it.
IMO it's the exploitation which is demeaning, not being a victim of it. On an individual basis, plenty of those who make up the power base of the democrats can move on and advance themselves, but it's not a coincidence that the democrats promote policies which encourage as many people as possible not to seek to advance themselves and to live off of the system which they created.
The fact is that the great majority of minorities in this country understand how it all works and they align primarily with the democrats as the party that carries their needs and concerns to the centers of government.
Exactly. They know which side their bread is buttered on and take the easy route and support the party which supports them. The problem is that this creates a parasitic relationship which ultimately works to their detriment. It's a lot harder for them to embrace a political philosophy which urges them to be responsible for themselves.
Dave
69 - troll
...you mean it's like business people's relationship with the Republican party and corporate wellfare - ?
70 - zingzing
now, now, troll. what the democrats do is exploitation, while what the republicans do is just getting a little 69 action. there are no victims here.
71 - Dave Nalle
Who would you rather see exploited, the business community or the poor?
Dave
72 - troll
actually - imagine the mess for the owner class if those that the democrats bribe to 'stay in their place' all of a sudden embraced *a political philosophy which urges them to be responsible for themselves*
73 - Clavos
Well, the business community creates jobs.
The poor...
We report, you decide.
74 - troll
Dave #71 - neither...I would rather see the government stand down and let the poor and the business community work things out for themselves
75 - troll
with the support of government the poor enable low wages thus serving a function as critical to 'economic equilibrium' as job creation