How can you call Islam a religion of peace any more?
Pat Robertson did it again. On his 700 Club television show yesterday he said, “Islam is not a religion of peace.”…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Was Pat Robertson Wrong This Time About Islam? - Comments Page 4
Article comments
— go to most recent comments126 - gazelle
Wolfe ... says he believes in the same God as his Jewish father and his Christian mother.
exactly the pov i espouse, had i been born in a different household... ancient glocalism
127 - MCH
"you continue with your bullshit chicken hawk argument..."
And you continue with your bullshit "f---ing pacifist" argument with anyone who opposes the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
128 - Andy Marsh
I honestly don't think pacifist is a word I use very often. I know I've never called you one. I've called you a lot of other things...but never a pacifist.
What exactly is your problem with me anyway? What have I done to piss you off besides disagree with your chicken hawk argument...or is that all it takes? I haven't commented on a war post in here in a while, but you seem to follow me around in here and make your snide little comments...are you the BC stalker?
129 - Richard Brodie
zing: aaman--there are many good points in that article, especially, "declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion is just about as extreme and radical as al-Qaeda urging all Muslims to do Jihad against America."
There is absolutely NO comparison.
"declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion" is nothing more than expressing an opinion, for Chrissake! Urging Muslims to go slaughter the infidels is genocide. It's the same kind of a difference as expressing your opinion than Bush is a dangerous idiot, and picking up a gun with the intention of assasinating him.
The fact that you regard equating these two things as making a "good point" just shows how utterly fucked up the Muslim mind is, and why Islam has no place whatsoever in the modern civilized world.
130 - Michael J. West
That last sentence might make sense, Richard, if Zing was a Muslim. Which he isn't.
131 - mark bey
Hello everybody my namd is Mark the major problem with the world now and past is religionl. Think of how many people have been killed in the name of ( insert standard religion here), than for any other reason. Now someone mentioned that moderate muslims need to speak out against extremeism. Where were those moderate christian voices when white southerners were taken away american black citizens constitionally promised rights, allowing white people in the south to commit any immoral and unconstitional act they wanted against black people including rape and murder. This inhumane treatment only stopped 40 years ago, and oh yes the south was supposedly a christian society. Mark
132 - Josh
Most conflicts have nothing to do with religion at all. Ultimately, it all comes down to the Haves vs. the Have-Nots.
133 - Waleed
Pat Robertson has a filthy brain with nothing good in it
and it is no wonder that if he went on again saying something
against Islam.
Regarding the Column writer i initially thought he is a
confused person and needs some guidance & who is also
seeking for a list so here is a v short list of 15 Muslims Individuals
that world knows.
( You may pick 3 of your choice and if need more names i'll provide u laters.)
1.Doctor Genius: Zakir Naik
2.Sheikh Yusuf Estes
3.Ex Pop Sensation: Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens
4.Ahmed Deedat
5.Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
6.Renowned female Scholar: Aminah Assilmi
7.Adnan Oktar aka Harun Yahya
8.Sir Syed Ahmed Khan
9.Former Prime Minister of Malaysia: Mahathir bin Mohamad
9.Greatest Sports Person of all Time: Muhammad Ali
10.The Handsome Cricketer Legend: Imran Khan
11.Football Hero: Ali Daei
12.Football Great: Zinedine Zidane
13.Squash Immortal: Jehangir Khan
14.Greatest Basketball Player: Kareem Abdul Jabbar
but later what i discovered
in his comments ref #22 that he has lost his mind
and just like all others in the west, is victimised by the
media propaganda and hatred against Islam & muslims.
and just for the sake of the say he
never used a thing known as 'brain' but showed his
frustration.
Regarding Christians and their reaction on "Piss Christ"
i would just say when religion doesnt exist in a society
and also not practised by a large majority then whocares about
if 1oo's of 'Piss Christ'appear.
Killing over blasphemous caricatures has a background to look
at before opening one's mouth.
I strongly condomn the violance
took place but did any-1 looked up why all this had happend?
Most of the Western media didnt talk and covered initial peaceful
protests that took place all over the world that is the main reason of
ur unawareness.
In majority of Muslim countries there is 'NO' place for
public voice and freedom, leaders who are ruling them
are religionless & nothing but appointed men
by the west and U.S for maintaining their influence and interest.
and it is a historical fact now.
Thus, it is a natural reaction that when your sentiments are deeply hurted
and your voice isnt heard and u dont get the justice what u do? violence is
the reaction and the same had happened.
West calling Islam & muslims extremist and terrorists because of the acts of
few individuals so should i call the same for christanity if i see Adolf Hitler
and G.W.Bush ?
saying it is not against Islam and muslims is a foolish statemtent.
and bombing is done for what? Peace LOL
it is like fucking for virginity
Zingzing#20
"bush never did anything in the name of christianity (although god does tell him what to do he says),
but that doesn't matter. it's all about how the extremist muslims twist it.
like you twist their violence into a hatred-filled diatribe against all muslims."
i totally agree with the views of Zingzing,
Ruvy # 14
"Let me make this real simple for everybody.
ISLAM IS NOT THE RELIGION OF PEACE.
ISLAM MEANS COMPLETION THROUGH SUBMISSION TO G-D."
Mr.Ruvy highly need to educate himself as he doesnt know much about Islam
Islam is a religion of peace that means that a person submits his will to
the will of God. That he is ready to sacrifice all his desires for the will of God.
and if you read Qo'ran u'll know what Islam really is. shaping your opinion
after watching few individuals who r the result of U.S and western policies is
totally absurd.
This Osama and Jihadis were the BEST thing when USSR was there, for U.S and for the west.
they trained them, supported them militarized them and after their objectives accomplished
left them, now the same are the terrorists and naming them as the reflection of Islam
is muslim extremism ?
LOL is there anything exist known as 'character' ?
The issue of caricatures making a slogan that it is the freedom of speech!
Hurting sentiments of the huge muslim world is what freedom of speech?
tell those lunatics if freedom is without responsibility how can peace prevail?
freedom without responsibility develop Wildness and it made west WILD Animals.
If some-1 says anything against Samitic's belief of Holocaust he is punished
as a man recenty got sentence in Austria.
All sources of terrorism belongs to Israel, U.S & the west.
The slogan of 'Freedom of Speech' doesnt apply there and if still your heads r dumb
to understand what is happening with Muslims then i just can laugh on your mental health.
134 - Andy Marsh
YOu're absolutely right about one thing Waleed. freedom without responsibility developes wildness. That would explain burning down embassies over cartoons. As far as your opinion on who and why the Crusades started...guess that's the difference between the way your history was written and mine was...mine says that the Crusades were to push back Muslim advances...apparently yours was written a little differently.
And of course, once again ladies and gentlemen, it's the U.S.'s fault for all this terrorism...oh yeah...and Israels too! Time to throw in the BULLSHIT flag!
135 - Andy Marsh
and as for your list...the only two names on there that I recognize are Casius Clay and Lew Alcindor!
136 - ASH
Islam: Misunderstood throughout the World the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were sent to their respective people, as the Qur'an says: "We did indeed send, before you, Messengers to their (respective) people, and they came to them with clear signs." ( Holy Qur'an, 30:47)
Islam is a monotheistic religion, civilization and way of life now practiced by 1.5 billion people. Easily the world's fastest growing religion, Islam is not confined to the Middle East
Muslims see themselves as the afflicted, not the afflictors; they feel themselves desperately on the defensive, not on the offensive; they consider themselves the objects of violence, not the initiators of violence. In sum, Muslims across the world consider themselves victims. In support of their position, Muslims will take their Christian and Jewish neighbors on a quick tour of the world. They inevitably begin with Bosnia, where nearly 200,000 Muslims have been slaughtered by Serbian Christians. Muslims are horrified and sickened by the fact that 22,000 Muslim women, aged 9 to 82, have been raped by Christian troopers. Muslims wonder privately about the weak and very late Western response.
In Kashmir, Indian occupying forces violently oppress Muslims, killing thousands of Kashmiris. Elsewhere in India in December 1992 and January 1993, violent Hindu mobs went on a rampage in Bombay, killing over 800 Muslims, destroying 5000 Muslim homes and forcing 200,000 Muslims to flee the city. Mosques were firebombed and mothers watched as their sons were pulled from their homes and slain or burned alive. In Tajikstan and other places in Central Asia, the Communists have made a comeback and, with the help of Russian troops, have attacked and killed more than 20,000 Muslims. Another 350,000 have been forced to flee.
Even in China, Muslims find themselves under heavy military pressure. Chinese troops oppress Muslims in the western province of Xinjiang.
Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi'ites in the south.
In Algeria, when the Islamists scored a surprise victory in the December 1991 elections, the regime declared the election null and void. Since then, Algeria has been the scene of a bloody civil war. The government blames Islamic fundamentalists of striking terror in the very same areas where they had received majority of votes from. The governments explanation of fundamentalists unleashing waves of terror in their own strongholds, sounds very plausible indeed and casts shadows of dound over the credentials of the secular government instead.
In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak's regime, facing widespread disaffection of its people, pursues a policy of torture and execution of members of the Muslim opposition. In March 1993, his troops fired upon 500 unarmed Muslims at prayer in the Rahman Mosque in Aswan, killing nine and injuring 50. In the West Bank, another more widely publicized mosque massacre occurred a year later in Hebron when a Jewish settler killed 30 in a group of praying Muslims before the survivors could beat him to death. This litany of anti-Islamic violence is recognized and recited by Muslims everywhere. The situation is exacerbated when Muslims incredulously find themselves labeled as terrorists and when Western governments encourage their secular Middle Eastern allies to confront Muslim populist movements with brute force. One result of these Western perceptions and policies, of course, is that they begin to radicalize the huge mass of moderate Muslim believers. Meanwhile, the extremists on the fringes
137 - ash
This perception is not due to any intrinsic resentment of Islam by the American people. It is understood that the mainstream of Muslims, the vast majority of them, like in every other faith, is peaceful and pay their taxes, trying to make America a better society, trying to improve relations with neighbors and colleagues
But images and terminology influence public opinion, and a bitter taste is left when Islam is reported in the daily headlines. The term "Islamic fundamentalism", whatever it means, has been repeated enough times in relation to violent incidents that naturally, any thinking human being has to be uncomfortable with the fact that America is home to a vibrant Muslim community. The problem stems from negative images about Islam. In the court of public opinion, Islam is guilty until proven innocent.
Even though the Middle East was home to fewer terrorist incidents than Latin America and Europe, for example, it is still regarded as the region where terrorism is rooted. According to a recent US State Department report, Patterns of Global Terrorism, issued earlier this year, 272 terrorist events occurred in Europe, 92 in Latin America and 45 in the Middle East. Sixty-two anti-US attacks occurred in Latin America last year, 21 in Europe and 6 in the Middle East. These numbers represent the terrorist trend and not an anomaly, whereby the majority of perpetrators are not linked to the Middle East or Islam. The Red Army Faction in Germany, the Basque Separatists in Spain, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, the Shining Path in Peru and the National Liberation Army in Columbia are not viewed with the same horror as terrorist groups of Muslim background.
There is no moral justification for terrorism regardless of the ethnic or religious background of the perpetrator or the victim, but the factual basis of terrorism has been either hidden or twisted in the public's perception of this policy problem, especially in congressional hearings on terrorism. The countries with the worst terrorist records in the world are not in the Middle East either. They are not even Muslim countries outside the Middle East. They are Columbia and Germany, havens for drug lords and neo-Nazis.
The negative association of Islam with terrorism exists, but no one has ever asked "Why?". Could it be that American society cannot overcome the Khomeini phobia, even though he is dead? The US Congress found it necessary to push $20 million towards covert operations in toppling the Iranian government even at the dissent of people in the CIA. The Arab countries, both friend and foe, are run by tyrants who kill more of their own people than those outside their countries. The presumption that these countries represent a threat to American interests or that any one of them can dominate the region or even rival the only remaining superpower is indeed generous. So the issue is not these countries' hegemony in their region or the world, but about who can dominate their people and exploit their resources. The perception in the Middle East is that US policy does not serve the peoples interests; it protects Israel and friendly Arab dictators even when they violate human rights, while it slaps sanctions on and takes military actions against countries whose dictators misbehave, resulting in suffering, starvation and even slaughter, all in the name of teaching the tyrants a lesson. The priorities in the Middle East for the US are not human rights and democracy, but rather oil and Israeli superiority. Consequently, anti-American sentiment increases. This mood of the general public is then characterized as "Islamic fundamentalism", even though the resentment is not rooted in religion. When it turns violent, it is termed "radical Islamic fundamentalism" or "Islamic terrorism." The various "terrorism experts" promote linkage to the Middle East before any other possibility every time terrorism is speculated. They exploit the human suffering of the victims, their families, and the fears of the American public.
Indeed, extremists of Muslim backgrounds are violating the norms of Islamic justice and should be held accountable for their criminal behavior, but we in America should not be held hostage to the politics of the Middle East or biased reporting.
An Israeli journalist, Yo'av Karny, reporting on the events in Chechnya made a striking observation about this development: "The West will be told--and will be inclined to believe--that the oppression of the Chechens is part and parcel of a cosmic struggle against 'Islamic extremism' that rages from Gaza to Algeria, from Tehran to Khartoum. Russians will seek Western sympathy. They should not be given it." The issue is not Chechnya, and it is not even about Islam and the West. Debates about religious wars and cultural clashes only distract us from the real issue: the powerful want to continue dominating the powerless, manipulating facts to influence public opinion, hence maintaining the status quo.
138 - Andy Marsh
ASH - I'd say that whatever you cut and pasted from got cut off at the end. I'd say it was this line that gave it away as a cut and paste job...Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi'ites in the south.
...any references for your numbers?
139 - john
The Muslim world can be as diverse as when we talk about the Western world -- [like] the difference that we see today between France and America. But in general, whether sophisticated or unsophisticated, educated or less than well-educated, many Muslims have a sense of, on the one hand, admiring America. That's why so many have come here, or want to come here.
They come to study, they come to live, they buy property, etc. But even though that's the case, there is a sense among many Muslims who feel close to America (let alone extremists), that there's been a long history of rivalry. There's a strong memory of a militant Christianity, the Crusades, and of European colonialism, and, more recently, a sense that in general, as great as America is in terms of its principles, when it comes to its foreign policy and its application in the Muslim world, a double standard is seen.
The most generic observation is that many simply believe that despite the number of Muslims and their visibility across the world, and now in Europe and America, Islam still tends to be a misunderstood religion, often seen through caricatures or through the headline events that focus on the acts of extremists.
We often fail to see the diversity. We know that [we encompass] a diversity; when Muslim say "the West" we will say, "Wait a minute, there's a difference between Europe and America." Or when they say "the West and Christianity," we will say, "This is isn't Christendom any longer."
We tend not to see the diversity of the Muslim world. Over the years, until recently, we tended to continually equate Islam with Arabs, when they constitute only 23 percent of the Muslims. In the past, when we talked about, for example, women, we always had images of women in Saudi Arabia; we talked about the fact that they can't drive cars, or that there is sexual segregation, or that they have to be completely covered in public.
We often equate that with the reality, let's say, of Muslims in Egypt or Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia.
But the other thing is that we tend to equate the minority of extremists, who are in fact out there and are dangerous, with the majority religion. When an extremist Jew assassinates a prime minister of Israel, or an extremist Christian commits an action, in our gut as Americans we distinguish that from mainstream Judaism and Christianity. The average person doesn't say, "There go those Christians and Jews again." And we use the word "extremist" meaning "veering from the norm." When Muslim extremists do it, that distinction doesn't occur. Even when we use the word "extremist," we don't really necessarily mean that they're extremists relative to the [Muslim] norm. Of course, that perception gets reinforced by certain voices in the Christian right -- Franklin Graham, and [Pat] Robertson -- who, in fact, don't make the distinction themselves. They don't say "extremists are evil." They say, "Islam is evil." I think that that post - 9/11, it's become exacerbated exponentially.
for more about this interview "Islam and the West".
John L. Esposito
140 - peter
There were a number of things operating. The history, the encounter of Christians and Muslims, while there were many points of cooperation, there were many points of conflict, and a long process of demonization -- it’s reflected in Dante’s Inferno, for example. Ironically, Dante borrowed from Muslim writings, but in the end, he put Muhammad in the lowest of the hells. There was at the points of conflict of almost mutual Satanization, and there was a lack of any real appreciation from a scholarly point of view, and full knowledge of Islam. We knew a lot more, not only about Judaism and Christianity, but Hinduism and Buddhism. And this was clearly the case in America.
In America, the study of eastern religions came in during the sixties and seventies. But the last religion often to be studied, or the last faculty members to be hired in those early days, were in Islam. The interest tended to be in Hinduism, Buddhism -- Zen Buddhism. We had a tendency in terms of our own religion and culture to say, "We are Jews and Christians, and the rest are over there." And immediately that implies that Islam shares an awful lot with Hinduism and Buddhism, and not that much with Judaism and Christianity.
141 - Logician
I find this discussion very interesting...which is why I keep coming back to it. However, I would like to point out that there is virtue is brevity. We really don't need to have the entire history of Islam reiterated every day. Just my opinion.......
142 - ASH
How Islamic inventors changed the world
From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life. As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article350594.ece
if u want to know more about this great civlization that brought the world from darkness to light seemuslimheritage.com
143 - wonderful civilization
The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.
Innovators in astronomy
Did you know that historians of astronomy often refer to the time from the 8th through the 14th centuries as the Islamic period? As that was when most study of the stars took place in the Muslim world
The inventor of the pendulum
Did you know that the pendulum was invented by an Egyptian scientist in the 10th century? Ibn Yunus's invention led to the measurement of time by its swinging motion (called oscillations).
The world's first planetarium
Did you know that what is believed to be the first planetarium was first built in the in the city of Cordoba in Spain by Ibn Firnas? etc..
144 - Andy Marsh
I'd have to agree with logician on this one. It's kind of like...what have you done for me lately? We can argue all day about who started what 800 years ago during the crusades and it won't make any difference. We can argue all day about whether all these scientific advances were muslim advances or advances of people conquered by the muslims of the period.
This is about blowing up govt embassies for the actions of a newspaper, or blowing up any civilian "target" in the name of a religion and why the "moderate" Muslims aren't the LOUDEST Muslims condemming those same attacks.
I don't care who did what to whom or for whom 1000 years ago. It's ancient history. What did my 3 friends that were working on the 110th floor of the WTC do to these people? What did the Danish govt do to these people? What did all those people on those four planes do to these people?
You wanna make a point? Carry a sign. Write your elected officials...march in protest...but don't kill innocent people and claim it's in the name of religion.
145 - Andy Marsh
comment #139 has a link that's pretty intersting. So I'm making it clickable here.
It's a long read, but pretty informative.
146 - Dawn
but don't kill innocent people and claim it's in the name of religion.
Well, not if you want to call it a religion of peace anyway.
147 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
It was a very long read. I wish it was as informative as it was long.
148 - Waleed
Yes interestingly u picked out only the point to comment which can favour u and i can understand that and i
guess you forgot to read when i said i condemn the violence happened in any form.
You didnt get in the context of Blasphemous caricatures which was a MISUSE of freedom of speech as it was
done without responsibilty knowing that ISLAM prohibits any kind of sketching and any kind of image
making just like it is prohibited in Christianity and Judaism.
My point is that if you people dont know how to respect your Holy figures by making sketches
and in other ways and laughing over them try to respect others religions and their sacred figures it is
one of the basic pillars of religious harmony and to live peacefully in the world.
To incite the hurted sentiments of muslims FREEDOM of Speech was MISUSED again when
it got printed in others countries aswell.
As i earlier mentioned that voice in the muslim world on a higher level is not heard as it should
cuz they're ruled by appointed puppet leaders so they dont have a way to convey their original message
to the world but being stated this fact they did protest peacefully initially and still doing so if
u see all around the world but the voilent protest did occur in the middle of it in few countries
like Iraq, Afgahistan & Pakistan and it didnt occur that intense anywhere else out of these 3 whereas
there are 57 muslim states in the world.
Now who are ruling Afghanistan? u know that ? the same appointed men by U.S, who only
have access to Kabul the capital of Afghanistan and in the majority area of Afghanistan
still Taliban has the possession of most of the land.
It is a war situation there and if violence breaks out it is nothing unnatural
same is the situation with Iraq.
Pakistan is itself a of victim of terrorism and these people came from Afghanistan who r making situation
worst here and taking the advantage of peaceful protest they did the violence in it and the world
saw it as the violent protests.
Now if u go back in past seeing the situation before U.S invaded in this region nothing was alike that.
SO now the question arises what really had happend there which made
the countries unstabled and cause the violence ?
This i leave it on all of the readers to figure out and to understand.
As far as u talking about Crusades and linking them to muslims aswell it is too much hilarious.
Ofcourse Ladies and Gentlemen having NO Muslim state involved in BOMBING and KILLING innocent
citizens of christian states or any other country of the world and after being BOMBED everyday
KILLING Hundreds of them in a day in Iraq, Afghanistan & Palestine By U.S and Israel they r the one's
who deserve the label of Terrorist and Extremist.
Regarding the List .. i would say if u'have limited and selective knowledge about the world then
i cant help u much. even if u have no idea about who is Zinedine Zidane.
Iam putting some links which may help u can all check them.
149 - Waleed
* Adnan Oktar aka Harun Yahya
His Website: http://www.harunyahya.com/ [ Check his Books,Article and Movies ]
150 - Waleed
* Dr.Zakir Naik
His Website A MUST SEE : http://www.irf.net
It is based on comparative religions:
Check the download section and specially the Video Gallery.
151 - Waleed
* Sheikh Yusuf Estes [ Former Christian Musician Minister - 1988 ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://www.famousmuslims.com/Yusuf%20Estes.htm
His Website : http://www.islamtoday.com/
152 - Waleed
* Yousef al-Khattab [ Former Orthodox Jew who is now a Muslim in Palestine]
jews-for-allah.org
153 - Waleed
And Specially this-1 for Andy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Muslims
154 - Waleed
wikipedia link
another wiki link
155 - Tizon
Islam invaded Europe in 711 A.D.
They reached almost as far north as Paris. They were repelled by Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel, and pushed back to the Pyrenees and the Iberian peninsula where the Spanish fought to oust them for the next 800 years. That was the true beginning of the crusades and later the Inquisition!
But moreover, does anyone else notice that most of the ongoing conflicts involving religion are between Muslims and their non-Muslim neighbors?
Let's face it: The Muslim world is completely intolerant of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists (Note the huge Buddhist statues the Taliban destroyed in Afghanistan a few years ago).
You can sugar-coat it and convolute it any way you want but the fact remains that Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim world ever since it's inception.
156 - ash
those who burned the embassies are the exception, muslims demonstrated in more than 100 countries only in 2 or 3 we heard about violence actions, its islamiophobia media that ignored all millions peaceful protesters and just focused on few violent[unacceptable and condemned by all muslims clerics and people] to destort muslims image as if they are violent people
157 - ash
the different between muslims toleration and christians untoleration is obvious , during muslims ruling for spain all jews,chirtians and muslims lived side by side in peace, and jews consider this era as there golden jews era in there history, spain was example of modern civilization and toleration, but when spain chirtians ruled it again they turned it to bloody intolerant place they forced muslims and jews to convert, expel, or to be killed and the bloody history of Inquisitions is well known, untill france ended it in spain .
158 - ibraham
the problem of this world is double standards,for example killing more than 4000 innocent palestinians,792 of them are kids-yesterday also israel troops killed 10 years old palestinians girl, isnot terrorism, but resisting occupation is akind of terrorism, using f16,and tanks to kill people isnot terrorism but using ur body to defend ur land is terrorism, invading countries and killing its people for some lies -iraq- isnot terrorism,but defending ur lands is aterrorism........the world have to be fair and discover who is the real terrorists
159 - jesus
pat robonsin is one of hatred preacher, he is calling people to kill venzelwa president, and was angry when sharon withdraw from small part of palestinians occupied lands, and calling 1 billion and ahalf muslims terrorists, he is just chirtian zionist wants wars to let zionists like him and his Bush rule the world
160 - proud to be arabian
Zewail's[arabian muslim] key work has been as the pioneer of femtochemistry"i.e. the study of chemical reactions across femtoseconds. Using a rapid ultrafast laser technique (consisting of ultrashort laser flashes), the technique allows the description of reactions at the atomic level.winner of Nobel Prize in Chemistry
161 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Ibrahim,
At Comment #158, you complain about Israelis killing Arabs with M16's and tanks. You talk about resisting occupation (killing Jews) and complain about us killing back. You want to wage war upon us and complain when we wage war back.
Fine. Let's say that we Israelis decide that the entire territory is ours and we want you out - but we're not going to kill you. We cut off the water and electricity to Gaza and prevent food from getting into the towns and villages of the three former Jordanian provinces west of the Jordan. No tanks - no M16's - just quarantine, starvation and imprisonment until you leave.
This too is waging war.
Any problems with this?
162 - Karenjoga
Dear Andy,
I'm a Muslim from Lahore, Pakistan here whose office building got gutted during the cartoon riots. And I have a couple of comments to make:
Firstly the Cartoon Riots were NOT ABOUT THE CARTOONS. The riots in pakistan took on an anti-government, anti-America/ anti-imperialist tangent that was according to sources actually encouraged by certain elements in the Provincial Government as a precussor to the infamous Bush visit. Am I angry? No. Am I despondent about my country's future? Yes. Do I want Muslim fundamentalists running my country? NO. Do I want to have to deny that I'm a Muslim because I feel discriminated against? NO. Does my being born into a particular belief affect how people treat me? YES. This in my view is an infringement of my basic human rights which may be Greek may be Islamic I don't care where the idea of rights stems from but it is an infringement none the less.
Secondly, to talk in generalisations itself is not a great analytical achievement. Yes there is a virulent violent strain in the Islamic world that is indeed hell bent on world domination [or so it seems] but you must bear in mind that this tangent has a lot to do with domestic politics and the want for taking over the reins of power in very isolated domestic realms. If you ever heard rabid fundo propoganda it's got more to do with socio-economic control than with actual religion.
Islam has been hijacked, largely because the majority of us Muslims actually do not have an accurate understanding of the historicity of Islam. The reasons for this are multiple and rooted in the rise and fall of the Islamic civlisation.
Islam does mean peace and more than anything stands for equality, justice and tolerance above all else. You may say that this hogwash, and you're more than welcome to say so. Muslims are the new Russians. Our basic human phsyche necessitates a counter point to hinge the promotion and ultimately achievement of our own subjective agendas. We are the great malaise that threatens the world but that's not as simple a statement as it seems.
The root of this malaise is that the Islamic world really has not recovered from the Mongol attacks of the 12th century, when entire libraries were burnt and intellectuals, artists and theologians were persecuted in a violent purgation of all that was civilised. The cities and countries that we now see as backward and retrogressive [and indeed I am from one of them] were once the repositories of world culture and sophistication, adn the crucial link between the classical and the modern worlds. For most people devoid of a history that spans millennia this information is meaningless and trite. But for people who have seen the epic cycles of peaks and troughs played out in their backyward and who are aware of how these cycles have defined the culture they stem from this is nothing new.
We're at the bottom rung of our cultural evolution or devolution right now. ANd again the reasons are multi-tiered and very complex. To state it simply What the Islamic world suffers from is a lack of leaders honest to their country men and honest to the earnest betterment of their countries. I feel that these leaders will never emerge as long as domestic politics in the Islamic world are guided by western interests i.e mineral resources.
Many thanks for bearing this rant. tis incomplete but I look forward to reading your comments.
A
163 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Karenjoga,
Interesting that you say that Islam has been hijacked; interesting that you say that you will not see honest leaders until western power manipulations and interests are eliminated. I agree with both points wholeheartedly.
You bring two additional elements, the damage of the Mongol invasions of South Asia and the Middle East, and the provincial interests involving Lahore and vicinity.
I was vaguely aware of the first and totally unaware of the second.
Thank you for the education.
164 - Tizon
My point was that the Inquisition came about as a result of the muslim invasion. It began as an attempt to purge coerced muslim beliefs which were instilled in Spain during a war of Islamic conquest.
It's interesting that the muslim people who complain that the Jews took their land in Palestine, (a land that the Jews have a long history of occupying), so easily defend their conquest and occupation of the Iberian penninsula.
Ironically, I used to have some sympathy for the Palistinians. But those feelings have deteriorated steadily over the years. The last straw was the cheering in the streets of the West Bank on 9/11.
I should also note that I don't think ALL muslims are bad or intolerant or a threat to freedom. I do wonder, however, where the voices of these moderate and good muslims are when the Islamo-Fascists engage in their outrages.
I am neither a Jew nor a born-again Christian, but I am a student of history. And history shows an unending series of attempts by extremist Muslims to promote their religion through warfare and conquest which has not been the case for Christians for hundreds of years(in fact most of the recent Christian conflicts have been internecine affairs)and the Jews NEVER in the Christian and Muslim era.
165 - ash
chirtians invented what is known now as genocide during there wars in usa they terminated millions of people ,in south america the same, in phil. they forced people to convert and fought muslims there also by there bloody inquistions, in indonsia the dutch did the same, in imperial era uk ,france, etc invaded islamic countries and treated there people so badly, and as history student u can have comparative study between muslims wars during there history and chirtians west wars!!
166 - Logician
Karenjoga
I am impressed by your obviously above-average intelligence. I found your bit easy to read and quite informative. I would like to add: We do this have this in common...The Western world (USA)also suffers from a lack of leaders honest to their country and honest to the earnest betterment of their country.
167 - Andy Marsh
Karenjoga - very interesting read, your comments. I agree that lumping a whole group of people together is a bad thing, but I really have a problem with this religion. It seems that everything I read says that no matter what, if it's to the better of Islam. it's OK. Lying, murdering, all of it, if it's for the betterment of your religion, then, it's ok.
Is it true that Muslim prayers must be recited in Arabic and most Muslims don't know Arabic? Doesn't it make it kinda hard to understand exactly what you're praying for?
Do people that argue that Islam is a religion of peace know about the Hadiths and how they "clarify" certain issues with regard to unbelievers?
Isn't it true that the Qu'ran says that unbelievers have three choices...conversion to Islam, tythes(taxes) or death?
Isn't it true that Islam says that Christianity and Judiasm can live under Islam but never quite with Islam?
How long must we wait for the Muslim world to recover from attacks that happened hundreds of years ago? Just wondering about your comment concerning the Mongols...
You say that the cartoon riots weren't about cartoons but about America and Imperialism? Is American influence that big in Pakistan right now? bigger than any other influence in the world?
Why does it always turn to the fault of the rest of the world that Muslims are killing people in the name of their religion?
I'd love to believe that this religion is a nice peaceful religion like the rest of them, but I'm not seeing it and none of the comments that I've received so far is making it any better.
168 - Andy Marsh
and again, I keep seeing all this BS about what some people did for the world a thousand years ago. Get this...WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY??? Other than make some of my more favorite sitcoms and TV shows change their opening scenes to remove the WTC, you've done absolutely nothing to better the world. Actually, you've made it a less fun place to be...but I suppose, that's what you really wanted in the first place...HOW DARE THEY HAVE FUN ON EARTH!!! Fun is for paradise!
I also read that if you're really not into virgins...you can have boys...the finest boys in paradise...a story for another time I guess...
169 - Ahmed
Andy, I'd love to read some of your sources....do post them if you can - A
170 - Karenjoga
Thanks for your comments Andy, I'm going to pick on one of them for now -
'You say that the cartoon riots weren't about cartoons but about America and Imperialism? Is American influence that big in Pakistan right now? bigger than any other influence in the world? '
Strange as it may sound, but the United States has been the single most dominant force in shaping contemporary Pakistan since the fifties. Moreso than Islam or the British.
Since independence Pakistan has courted the US [and vice versa] in a more or less tit for tat against India's siding with Russia in the fifties. Whereas India did so on ideological grounds [Nehru's flirtation with socialism] Pakistan did so on a short-sighted whim in order to seek some sort of ill-estimated balance.
Lateron Pakistan acted as the go between the Chinese and the American governments, Nixon and Kissinger used Islamabad as the secret go between for chats with Beijing that culminated in Nixon's famous visit to China. There's a very interesting book on the subject called From a Head to a Head through a Head by F.S Aijazuddin that outlines the whole affair most succintly. Then India threatened to attack at one point and Nixon point blank told India off saying that an attack on Pakistan was tantamount to an attack on the US. [WE used to joke that we're the 51st state].
Since that time, Pakistan's foreign policy has not been dictated by Islamabad but in Washington. Its an open secret that the Dictator Zia - an erstwhile ally of washington - was blown up in a plane alongwith the American Ambassador on a signal issued by someone in Washington.
But in between the Nixon era and the Reagan/Bush era you also had the revolution in Iran, and more significantly the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that led to Pakistan being dragged into a war that did not concern us. It is common knowledge in Pakistan that the American secret service would issue suitcases filled with dollars to the same Fundamentalist outfits that it now seeks to ban. Entire warehouses of weapons would be purchased in China and redistributed to these same fundo organisations [Lutz Kleveman 'The New Great Game']. The folks who created Al-Qaeda or the various small groups that have now merged into this super shady giant had no clue about the fallout of what they were doing. The agenda at that time was clear and short sighted 'defeat the commies and defend your ideology at any cost'. Well the time to bear this cost has now come, not only for you but also for me. These fundos are well funded well equipped and very capable of destroying civil society to gain political ground. The mullahs have tasted blood and now want more. These folks have worked closely with the US and rightly view the shift in US policy as a threat to them, so what is their strategy target the US make it into a gigantic monster in the minds of the masses and let revolution take its toll.
Musharref is viewed as an American toady - just like the Shah was when he was deposed and look at how he was treated [due to the fact that the CIA was desperately trying to hack a deal with the Ayotallah regarding Iranian oil and did not want to piss the mullahs off that is until the mullahs hijacked the american embassy].
But coming back to Musharref, strategic thinking in Pakistan's power circles began to shift after the fall of the Berlin wall, the scales of power had shifted and Pakistan was left in the lurch. The military began viewing Afghanistan as a useful backyard for 'strategic depth' [which meant that in case India attacked the Pak army would relocate its resources to Afghan bases and fight the war from there']. Sheer idiocy but hey ho. The riots had more to do with joblessness, an unequal distribution of wealth in the country and toppling Musharref.
To wrap things up, the intrinsic connectitivty of events as disparate as the deposition of the Shah and the fall of the Berlin wall is something that is not so apparent to western eyes. But these events regardless of how rhizomatic a connection they make have had regional reprecussions that go far beyond their real time occurences. The fall out is still ongoing in my view and is being played out in an arena stretching from Palestine to Pakistan. COuld it be a fallout from a colonial past and a hasty colonial retreat. Is it a fallout from the crusades. I don't know. But what I do know is that many Muslims are straddling the line between moderation and fundamentalism, and in the wake of continued anti-islamic fervour the ranks of the moderates are going to thin out.
171 - Karanjoga
Greetings all. Whatever happened to this blog and the discussion that it was generating. I apologise about the long essays I've been posting but I do intend to tie in all the tangents into a whole. But let's get those comments flying folks.
Looking forward to hearing from all.
Cheers,K
172 - Andy Marsh
Alright Karanjoga, I have another question for you. All this you say about the US and Pakistan is comment 170. The supposed reasons for all the rioting. Does the common man know all this stuff? Or do they riot on the words of a Mullah or Imam? Then there's all those other questions I asked....
173 - MCH
"...I haven't commented on a war post in here in a while..."
- Andy Marsh
Since you were one of the more aggressive, vociferous promoters after the invasion, I really can't blame you for backing off from your original, bellicose support, since the subsequent occupation has turned into the major cluster-fuck a lot of us predicted.
174 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I read you comments with interest, Karanjoga.
Everyone who is awake and who doesn't deny reality realizes that the Saudis (Wahhabis) wee more or less installed in Arabia by American business interests. The dummies (the Americans)probably looked at the toothless illiterate sheikh and figured that some land would shut him up while they made a fortune off the oil. Turns out that the Saudis had ambitions far grander than the territory of Arabia.
But a later generation of Americans figured that they could use the spoor of the Wahhabi, the Taliban - and now have fared no better. The Americans are really paying for a generation or twop of cheap oil. They are paying at the gas pump, they are paying in trillions of dollars of debt for their grandchildren to worry about. For all their techology and fancy razzmatazz and spin doctoring Madison Avenue admen making the sizzle look bigger than the steak, the Americans seem damned stupid. The same Wahhabi snake oil salesmen that the Americans thought they had conned in the 1920's seem to be screwing them over all over again.
175 - Andy Marsh
Can you find any comments of mine that would indicate that I am or ever was a "vociferous" promoter of anything other than my XM radio? I never promoted anything, I may have made comments in support of the troops or called bullshit on other articles about how unprepared the military was or is, but that's about it.
Like I said, MCH, for some reason, who knows why, you stalk around here making shitty little comments, too afraid to identify yourself or write something that might give insight into your own opinions.
For some reason, it bothers you that I did more time in the military than you did and I'm not a bleeding heart liberal like you. Go take a zanax or something.