How can you call Islam a religion of peace any more?
Pat Robertson did it again. On his 700 Club television show yesterday he said, “Islam is not a religion of peace.”…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Was Pat Robertson Wrong This Time About Islam? - Comments Page 3
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - gonzo marx
so...until Italians from Jersey are louder than the Sopranos or the Godfather ...then all Jersey folks are mafia killers...
i get ya, and agree with the basic Thought...just not your broad brush sterotyping ALL 1 billion plus Muslims for the actions of a handful
you say you want them to speak louder? can the guy from Bloomfield talk louder to someone in Dubai than the Godfather?
fucking spare me the straw men
i'm still disappointed...
Excelsior!
77 - Aaman
A response to this article, and a variety of blogospheric/media opinions on Islam is over at Desicritics, and quite interesting
78 - zingzing
mark-- give us a link to your 10% study. and is jihad really one of the pillars of islam?
79 - Mark
Jihad is listed in the Koran as one of the pillars of Islam and I got the 10% (and I realize simply saying this name discredits me) from the O'Rielly Factor, but I'm pretty sure he researched it before he made that statement.
80 - zingzing
aaman--there are many good points in that article, especially, "declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion is just about as extreme and radical as al-Qaeda urging all Muslims to do Jihad against America."
81 - zingzing
yeah, you'd better find a source better than the o'rielly factor. he probably DIDN'T research it.
i'm looking for the pillars of islam right now...
82 - zingzing
um... yeah... jihad is NOT one of the five pillars... there's the profession of faith, prayer, fasting, charity, and the pilgrimage... where's jihad, mark?
83 - zingzing
ahh... from wikipedia: "A few Muslims, mainly belonging to the sect of the Khawarij, hold that there is a sixth pillar of Islam, jihad literally meaning "struggle" or "combat." Often understood to refer to holy war, this is viewed by many as a misinterpretation, especially in the sense of conversion by sword; however, if the English use of "war" is meant spiritually/metaphysically (such as being "at war" with one's conscience), as opposed to literal armed conflict, it is considered to be the most precise and accurate translation."
84 - Andy Marsh
gonzo - it's not the people...it's the book...and as long as a book that calls for holy war against unbelievers is around...and it's my understanding that there are over 100 passages in the Qu'ran calling for jihad against unbelievers, this religion will be a problem...
One of the excuses I keep hearing about why I'm not hearing enough moderate muslims is because I don't speak arabic...well, you know what? Neither do half of those 1.6 billion muslims that like me, aren't hearing it either.
There will always be a handful that can hi-jack the religion again...
85 - Aaman
Quoting a snippet from the most recent comment by the author of that post I linked to:
Sic transit gloria mundi...
86 - Andy Marsh
We could always go with Ann Coulter...kill all their leaders and convert the rest to Christianity???
It's a valid question Aaman and I'm not sure I have the answer.
Should we do what is being demanded of us? Make sure that everything in print and any other media isn't offensive before it's put out there? Do we need some kind of council to evaluate news and commentary to make sure it doesn't offend any more musims?
You tell me? How do you handle a group of people that burn down buildings over cartoons? That behead people like Tom Fox that are in their country to help them...People that blow up churches where people are worshipping Allah? How do you deal with people like this? How do you deal with people that believe that the holiest thing they can do is die for their religion?
87 - Steve
I think it's important to realise, as in most religious traditions, there are various ways in which to practice one's religion vis a vis the Govt. One's political philosophy will determine how a person's religion will manifest itself politically.
As I understand it, the current Islamic terrorists' political philosophy developed in the late 19th century. It's the political philosophy that needs to be debunked, not the religion per se. Muslim moderates in the western world have largely proven their religion can be peaceful in the past, like I say, all depends on the political philosophy more than anything.
88 - gazelle
I dont know any violent muslims, but i might have met some, and not known about it. but ive seen a lot of tv. I dont know how that counts.
If you are 20 and listening to robertson and served in the navy, i'd say you still have many surprising and interesting people to meet ...
and most muslims do not speak or understand arabic .... in fact arabs/arabic speakers are a minority among them ...
also i'm sorry the burden is not on muslims to prove that they are this or that.
The real inconvenient burden is for those who know little about muslims to get to know them....
...a little sharper civility rather evil incarnate blunt demonization ...
89 - Andy Marsh
gazelle - you misread that...I'm not 20...I did 20. I've been to the Middle East and Europe and Japan and South America and Central America. I've met plenty of interesting people.
But I say that it is on the people that practice this religion to rein in the ones that have hi-jacked it. Just like you see people in the western world putting down the likes of robertson and falwell and other assholes like that...I expect to see Muslims putting down Osama and his buddies...not wearing t-shirts with his picture on them or dancing in the streets whenever an infidel is killed in the name of jihad.
90 - MCH
Come one, gazelle, get with it...he's only repeated those "20 years in the navy" about 2,000 times...
91 - gazelle
okay.
2 things:
one: islam says no violence unless in defence, forgive, take care of neighbors etc etc
two: the extremists understand that 'islam' or 'muslims' whatever their understanding of these are, are under threat, and therefore need defending thru violence. (still a simplistic view)
++++
Understanding this will go a long way in learning about the subject matter of what this article is trying to address but failing to do so.
for example exploring questions like why are muslims thrteatened. by what, whom. according to who. what is the worldview of the particular group that thinks like this....
and believe me there are many different answers, and would not make a neat little post.
best
92 - gazelle
yep, i misread that '20 year vet' wondering wow early retirement.
sorry about that.
I know for sure that usama is condemned by most, but then there is wwf or ... and some people go yaaah. that s all there is to it for most people but the insults are real.
best
93 - Andy Marsh
I guess in MCH's eyes, I'm not allowed to be proud of that fact. I'd call it the third biggest accomplishment of my life...but hey, he's got an attitude problem anyway.
94 - Andy Marsh
Look, I get what some of you are trying to say...but I'm actually reading one of those books that I picked that BC makes you hawk here...hehe...and it's really kinda scary!
Koontz or King coulda wrote this shit!
I'm put off by most religions anyway, but this one...and the more I read about organized religion...any organized religion the more put off I get.
95 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Nice to see you at long last Gazelle. It was hard making those points of mine without a little backup...
Please help me out on one small point, if yu would? I thought that all Moslems had to learn Arabic becasue it was forbidden to teach the Qur'an in any other language. Am I wrong? Is this changed?
Reuven
96 - Logician
I came across that cartoon of Mohammed that's causing all the insane protests. I printed it up, enlarged it and pasted it on my target sheet to use when I go to the gun range. It has improved my aim considerably. I sure hope this does not offend any Muslims or other idiots.
Sincerely, Pagan and Proud of it
97 - Dave Nalle
Hey, that's a good idea, Logician. Way more fun than just shooting at Osama.
Dave
98 - zingzing
kill! has anyone even taken a shot at osama? i mean the real one... not some bit of paper. big men!
when i go to the target range, i shoot at a picture of a dumb hick try to suck his own dick, while blowing his foot off as he struggles towards ecstacy. sometimes, i bring a picture of a hunter in orange clothing... the sun at his back... the field grass blowing around his knees... it's so romantic...
99 - Dave Nalle
Hey zing, where can I get that picture? Sounds like fun.
And I'm pretty sure Osama isn't volunteering to stand and get shot in gun ranges, but if he ever does I imagine someone will shoot him.
Dave
100 - zingzing
i made it myself!
i'm fuckin off for the keys for a week. have fun everybody.
don't judge anyone.
101 - Michael J. West
as long as a book that calls for holy war against unbelievers is around...and it's my understanding that there are over 100 passages in the Qu'ran calling for jihad against unbelievers, this religion will be a problem...
What about a book that calls for the execution of blasphemers? Would that religion be a problem?
102 - Andy Marsh
Yeah it would. They're all a problem. How many blasphemers have been killed lately in the name of any other religion besides Islam?
103 - nugget
Notice what you just said, Andy.
"in the name of religion"
Religion or spirituality, in and of itself is not violent. EVIL MEN are.
mmmmmk?
104 - Michael J. West
How many blasphemers have been killed lately in the name of any other religion besides Islam?
Doesn't matter. It's the book itself that's the problem, remember? Not the people who do what the book says.
105 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Zingzing,
"when i go to the target range, i shoot at a picture of a dumb hick try to suck his own dick, while blowing his foot off as he struggles towards ecstacy."
I wish we had such nice pictures when we went for target practice... The scores would go up dramatically, even if the targets started to move rapidly. Just went a few days ago with the other police volunteers. Boring, boring. But I know I shoot well enough to kill anyone who approaches...
106 - Baronius
I imagine that we all bring our own biases into our reading of history. In my youth, I approached history with a fuzzy, "let's get along" attitude toward the three great monotheistic religions. I instinctively favored Judaism, but respected all three. I've read a lot since then, reluctantly coming to the conclusion that there's something sour in Islam.
Yes, Ahab, I've read some Vatican-approved history (I'm not going to take that as an insult). And yes, Ruvy, I probably overlook anti-Semitism, because the idea is so foreign to me. It just seems so absurd, I have trouble believing it. I've been reading up automotive history recently, and wow, Henry Ford was nuts.
The 1350 argument is fallacious. There's no necessary timetable in the development of a religion. But for kicks, let's compare contemporary Islam to 1300's Christiandom. Where is Islam's mendicant movement comparable to Dominic and Francis of Assisi? Where is the blossoming of literature in Muslim countries? The equivalents of Thomas a Kempis, Dante, and Chaucer? And the 1300's saw the Scholastic movement in philosophy and theology. I don't know of any budding Aquinas in Islam.
The Crusades were often terrible and stupid. There's no denying it. History illustrates plenty of good and bad periods in Christianity. The history of Islam has many more lows and fewer highs. Muslim societies have imploded far too often for it to just be a coincidence. Algebra is cool, but there hasn't been much before or since.
107 - JP
Gabriel, if that's true (#68) then most Americans are idiots.
Mark, how exactly do you propose to "make it mandatory that Muslims have to be only moderate, marginal, cafeteria Muslims."? What if I said the following:
"The world would be a lot better off if it were mandatory that Christians had to be only 'moderate, marginal, cafeteria Christians'? After all, Christians perpetrated the Crusades, and modern Christians molest kids, burn abortion clinics and bomb Arab countries."
And Andy, Coulter is a Cun*. She needs to be burned at the stake on TV in my opinion.
108 - Aaman
, Baronius, your argument in #106 is invalid - Muslim societies kept the light burning during the Dark Ages, too tiresome to list their innovations, etc.
109 - Mark
JP, it was a joke to make my point. Point being, the most dangerous Muslims are the ones who do what Islam tells them to. My point was that if we are going to let people be Muslims, it would only be safe if we told them they could only be bad (marginal, cafeteria) Muslims. The same does not apply to Christians, because those Christians who bomb abortion clinics and molest children (non-Christians do this as well) are not following what Christianity prescribes.
110 - MAOZ
Some here have raised the point: If it's just a tiny, evil, minority of Muslims doing the evil nasty stuff, why don't we hear the moderate Muslim majority protesting?
Reminds me of a DryBones cartoon I saw in the Jerusalem Post, many years back. It was in the wake of yet another Arab terrorist attack against Jews. So in the DryBones strip, 2 Jewish guys are talking. First 1 says, "All those demonstrations are so depressing." 2nd guy says, "You mean those demonstrations by Jews expressing their grief and rage at the murder of their loved ones?" 1st guy says, "No, I mean the demonstrations by Arabs expressing their outrage over the shedding of innocent blood in their name." 2nd guy: "But there weren't any such dimonstrations." 1st guy: "I know. That's what's so depressing...."
111 - Logician
MAOZ....Thanks for the cartoon (#110).
Loved it!!!
112 - Artistic Kinda
Your assertion "They called it artistic excellence! You gotta be kidding me! Anyone can piss in a jar and throw a crucifix in it. What's so excellent about that crap?" shows that you have not an ounce of desire to find out anything about which you are ignorant.You have made up your mind and don't want the facts to get i the way.When Rush retires,you have a job already waiting for you
113 - Andy Marsh
You're absolutely right. I don't have an ounce of desire to find out why someone would piss in a jar and submerge a crucifix in it. What facts could possibly make that art?
114 - gazelle
ruvy rote:
As facts stand today fewer than 15% of muslims are arabs.Also among the ten most populous muslim countries only one (egypt) is arabic speaking. The muslim populations of these ten and what percentage this represents of the total country pop are:
Indonesia.......182.2 m - 88%
Pakistan....... .136.9 m - 97%
Bangladesh.....115.0 m - 83%
India.............108.6 m - 15% ?
Iran................63.9 m - 98%
Turkey.............61.0 m - 99%
Egypt..............51.6 m - 94%
Nigeria.............40.2 m - 50%
Algeria.............29.1 m - 99%
China...............29.1 m - 2.4%
but like anywhere else there are shades of religiosity. some are athieists, nominally-culturally muslim, some have only an idea of a higher deity full-stop, some agnostics, so there are people who never pray, dont know more than a few verses of the quran, let alone know the meaning of the arabic, and have plenty of other influences (as is normal)... and there are those who know the thing by heart, with footnotes cross referenced... and who are regular in putting together the 'islamic' way of life, some are muslims only on fridays, some have ideas about islam so different from others that they are isolationists and closed to outsiders ... and some have rosary beads - plenty of material for caricaturing within literature by muslims and non.
all this is complicated by the fact there are alternate - westernized - current - sytems of education, usually catering to the rather small upper to middle classes in these countries as in the rest of the third world, with notable exceptions.
now lets see how many people (on average) in these countries are illiterate that is they cannot read or write, although definitions vary.
Indonesia.....182.2 m - 15%
Pakistan.......136.9 m - 50%
Bangladesh...115.0 m - 60%
India...........108.6 m - 40%
Iran.............63.9 m - 25%
Turkey..........61.0 m - 2%
Egypt...........51.6 m - 30%
Nigeria..........40.2 m - 35%
Algeria..........29.1 m - 30%
China...........29.1 m - 10%
percent stats from Unesco tables 2004
Conclusion: these ten countries have 827 million muslims out of the 1300 billion (old stats) and the illiteracy rates with the exception of indonesia and turkey are alarmingly high. Actual illiteracty rates are usuually higher than official ones, because the definition may be as trivial as writing your name or a letter in one's own language.
So it may not be wrong to say that about half the muslims actualy cannot read the quran and depend on others.
They might have memorized part or whole of the quran and have an understanding of the principles and practices as taught to them orally - the understanding may or may not be adequate to the persons needs and may even be a social requirement.
your statement that the quran 'should be taught only in arabic' does not make sense because for a native speaker of another language, a quranic verse would of course have to be exolained with references and background context, in the local language which the student or peer can understand.
i think what you are referring to is the idea that the quran shoould be studied in the original arabic. This is the ideal and true of the religious-type of institutions - and more difficult to do in non-arabic speaking countries - the first step being the madrassa and going on to higher studies dar-ul-ulooms or howzas.
but today actually most people even in villages prefer an english-based education, given the choice, even over their mother tongue or official national language, which might be different from both. And many would like to keep a balance between this type and the religious education - meaning being able to read/recite the quran at least, if not understand the arabic, and better if one understands it and knows the context, references, etc.
However it is true that for most the quran's meaning is accessible only through translations of varying scholarship in the native languages.
This wouldn't be so bad if the interpreters for the vast majority of the illiterate reciters were a little better educated, kept up with what's going on in all spheres of life and had better standards to emulate.
the relation of poverty to all this is another limiting/complicating factor for people as well as governments.
and to other readers, i hope this counts in your counters as a rejection of extremism and a strong defence for better education/empowerment based on knowledge.
best
115 - gazelle
correction to previous:
1300 million or 1.3 billion
116 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Gazelle,
Thank you
I understood that only a minority of Moslems were Arabs. I had entirely forgotten to take illiteracy into account.
Best
117 - chip
It seems like Islam just wants to be left alone. If it weren't for the oil they have I doubt if the rest of the world would care about them at all.
Its like the " Amish" communities in Pennsylvannia. They just want to keep their seperate ways and identies. Seperating themselves from the " unclean thing". But the Amish are peaceful!!! Islam is armed and dangerous. Maybe they should be more like the Amish. And maybe we should get the hell out of THEIR country!! We never should have dipped our wicket in their oil pool, and THEY never should have been tempted in doing business with us infidels. They could have kept the oil all for themselves. Why did they let us in their country in the first place?
118 - troll
When you approach a Muslim anywhere with "Assalamu Alaikum" what response do you get - ?
the beauty of Islam is in this Arabic greeting - a social form common to 1.3 billion people
the sad thing about Islam is that the greeting is often as empty as a car salesman's handshake
Aaman - two points concerning #108...
first - the concept of the "dark ages" in Europe has been more or less debunked as renaissance bigotry
second - the Profit wasn't born until the period of the "dark ages" was about half over...if you want to give credit for preserving the written tradition of the Greeks and Christians then give it to the pre-Islam Arabs
troll
119 - chip
another idea was, why not (like how Israel welcomed all jews to be automatic citizens after WW11.) Make Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and the other intollerant countries of Arabia, the world headquarters for all Muslims. So all the muslims from all over the world can get out and go there where they belong. We won't bother them, and they can stay with each other over there. But no more of our " unclean money and products, and no more of their unclean oil to be traded between us and them. We can all live happily ever after. What do you think? Or are the Arabic leaders a little concerned about making lots of profit from the so called "Infidels"?
120 - troll
dear Allah - I know that I got cute and called the Prophet the Profit but ya didn't have to nuke the site
troll
121 - MCH
"I guess in MCH's eyes, I'm not allowed to be proud of that fact. I'd call it the third biggest accomplishment of my life...but hey, he's got an attitude problem anyway."
But is it necessary to repeat it over and over, ad nauseam, like you're the only person who's ever made a career out of the military.
There are hundreds of thousands vets - both men and women - who've sacrificed more than yourself, but you don't see them bragging about it on the blogoshpere week after week, month after month.
When my four years were up, I couldn't wait to get out and get the freedom back to craft my own individualism.
122 - MAOZ
Chip (#117), excuse me but it seems to me that if all that Islam wanted was just to be left alone, it would never have appeared beyond the Arabian Penninsula.
Islam was spread by the sword long before Westerners got all excited by slimy black stuff coming out of the earth.
(Shabbat Shalom, Yehudim ahuvim!)
123 - Andy Marsh
MCH - So, now I know that you have a problem with people that espouse war without ever having served and those that served and made a career out of it. You know damn well I don't bring it up as much as you say. I bring it up when, in my opinion, the discussion warrants it or when someone like you calls me a chicken hawk. Along the same note, everyone here knows you have an issue with the war but you continue with your bullshit chicken hawk argument...so, what's the difference? I can gaurantee that I haven't typed on here that I'm career military as many times as you've typed chicken hawk. Is that what MCH stands for? Mr. Chicken Hawk?
124 - yaakov kirschen
we in the West have this problem
we use the word "religion" to define certain mass movements. We then assume that anything defined by us as a "religion" automatically includes a search for peace.
if we included Nazism, Devil Worship, and the belief systems of head hunting tribes we would not make that automatic assumption.
so Islam mde it into our category of "religion"
so it must(?) be peaceful.
i think not.
Dry Bones
Israel's Political Comic
Strip since 1973
125 - gazelle
the islamic legacy cannot be separated from the western - this is a factual mistake many people make.
arabia deserta had been a roman province, and where sheba dwelt?
Instead of comparing levels and readiness for violence (preemptive strikes, bah), compare the accounts of the prophets in the torah, the new testament and the quran and you'll start seeing the commonalities/differences and the prophetic tradition that continues and also comes to fruition with islam with specific reference to muhammad's life.
the emphasis on terror is of course misplaced and politically motivated against a particular political formation. All this of course has little to do with the religion, except exploitation of the religious emotion and fantasy.
An anecdote about Frederick II of Sicily if you havent traced it yet.
isn't it in everyone's interest to defuse the reasons which give rise to extremists on a global scale. must be some kind of large stupidity which can suddenly draw people from diverse corners to react like they have - or is it the global microcosm of the media village?
the easy answer is not it.
its not just muslims who react to things in the world. lets not forget leo strauss, tom paine, jefferson, rousseau, marx, iqbal, maududi, khomeini, mandela or havel.
if jews can be from russian shtetls, and jesuits belgian, luther german, sun-moon korean, falwell from lynchburg VA, why not an ibn-arabi of murcia, an ibn hazm of cordoba and an abdullah of marseilles - when we know where moses, jesus and muhammad dwelt.
new worlds do have to be created still - these other kinds of freedom need protection too.
best