How can you call Islam a religion of peace any more?
Pat Robertson did it again. On his 700 Club television show yesterday he said, “Islam is not a religion of peace.”…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Was Pat Robertson Wrong This Time About Islam? - Comments Page 2
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Ben
Part of me wants to believe this whole post was a joke from the beginning. I guess I'm pretty out of touch for not realizing that people this out of touch exist and also for not realizing that people still drink kool-aid. wtf.
27 - Aaman
Comment #22 makes this entire post hate speech
28 - Michael J. West
Ruvy,
Not to speak for anyone else, Zing included, but I understood what you were saying from the first time you said it.
However, you seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) to be saying that the word and/or idea of Islam is not literally translated or defined as "the religion of peace." Well, when I heard Islam described as "the religion of Peace," I never thought that it was a literal translation or definition. Just a description.
Some (although by no means all, of course) would say that the will of G-d IS peace. So submission to His will would, by default, make Islam essentially a religion of peace.
29 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Mike, I hear you.
But going on that kind of logic, then Judaism is the religion of peace, Christianity is the religion of peace (you know, as in "prince of peace?") along with a few more. Perfection is attained when you is at one with whatever the various varieties of Hinduism call G-d. Therefore, Hinduism is the religion of peace.
Are you getting the idea? That is why I stick with the straight unvarnished Arabic, rather the derivations possible from it.
30 - Brian Sorrell
This dude needs to take a logic class. Then anger management. Then tolerance. Etc.
I've read some pretty hair-brained crap on here from time to time, but this is so obviously bad.... I'm with Ben and Aaman.
There is no way to have a discussion with our author until he gathers up some education and replaces a bit of his hate with brains.
... really shocking stuff here.
31 - zingzing
ruvy, you must admit that your "defintion" of islam is not going to be the most fair or balanced... you're jewish, and your country is at war with several elements of islam. there are a billion muslims in the world, and the most of them are peaceful. those muslims that are at war with your people probably see you much the same way you see them... as unwitting fools under the spell of evil, malicious leaders. and for that you (and they) deserve to die?
no religion is "the" religion of peace. a religion might be peaceful. and, i would say that most people are peaceful. you seem to say the same thing when you say, "They [the Wahhabi] are not the majority of Moslems..." even if they are becoming influential. let's face it, islam is under attack. with articles like these and the a large majority of the western world backing israel over islam... it's not a good time to be a muslim.
ruvy, i agree with you in several ways. but you write like your word is gospel, which it is not. it comes across as arrogant and all-knowing, which it isn't. your view is skewed, (as is mine, but in less obvious ways,) and you need to take it down a few notches if you want to reach people. if you have to repeat yourself "20 times," then obviously it's something that you are doing, not the other way around. your preaching is blocking your message.
32 - Dawn
Aaman, you are right, the number of good Muslims does indeed outweigh the bad. I don't think I meant or wanted to imply the opposite. What I should have said was that until the vocal number of good Muslims outweigh the physical actions of the bad, we will have violence, and subsequently we will have growing mistrust and fear from the West.
I like to think I am a reasonable person when it comes to accessing a whole group of people as either good or bad. Clearly, it's neither fair nor reasonable to judge the actions of a few and superimpose it on the whole as a respresentation of the entire group.
But I also know there is ZERO doubt that the only people who can turn this ship of fools who have hijacked Islam around to be Muslims themselves. This has to be a consolidated and united front where Muslims stand arm and arm and turn their back and reject this form of radical Islam wholly and fully.
This has not happened. It may not ever happen. People have to be pretty evolved to come together for a common good, and we are not exactly an evolved species in this area.
33 - Santa Barbara
Ok, so, we have hear a people just as ignorant as Pat Robertson, wow. The Crusades - Christians killing Muslims and Jews in the name of God. Now that that's cleard up, let's move to what Islam is. I grew up in a predominantly Muslim society. I even went to a private Muslim school. Learning about other beliefs was always emphasized. I have read the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran. The Old Testament has equal amounts, if not more, of punishment and cursing towards the Pagans, or in our times, the non-believers. The New Testament is mainly of peace, but if you look at who the writers were and the time it was written, it is obviously clear that some committee arbitrarily put the book together.
Although there are some words of harshness towards evil people in the Quran, the majority of the religion teaches peace. An all out attack on the religion is just pure hatred and ignorance. Do your reading people! Islam contains forms of feminism, meditation, and trascendence. Islam teaches tolerance. Under Islamic rule in Spain, the Christians and Jews flourished. But this ended when the Christians came back and kicked all the Jews and Muslims out. Anyways, the point in all this is that Islam is not a religion of hatred or violence, almost no religion is. It is the people who ruin purity. We are all humans here and we all do stupid things, but the main religions of the world supposedly comes from God, and he is righteous.
If you guys want to look more at peace in Islam check out some Sufi books. Or maybe read about the main tenants of Islam (the five pillars and the same 10 commandments in Christianity and Judaism). Also, check out the organization MPAC. They are one of the major Muslim organizations that are speaking out against all this violence going on. These are educated people who publish journals on these kinds of things all the time, but because Muslims are a minority, their works are not distributed across the country. Be educated and careful to not let the media brainwash you. Salam (this mean PEACE in Arabic).
34 - Michael J. West
Fair enough, Ruvy.
Actually, you're kinda making one point for me with the first part of your comment in #29. To my way of thinking, one must either accept all religions as "religions of peace," or admit that no religion is truly a "religion of peace."
I choose to do the former. I believe that at their core, every belief system strives for peace; I refuse to let the .0001 percent of Muslims who are burning embassies define that religion for the other 1.499 billion. Regardless of how vocal the violent ones are.
35 - Andy Marsh
I'm not kidding about the crusades...they were started to push back the advances of Muslims into what was believed to be christian territory...look it up...you people tell me I need to get educated???
36 - zingzing
religion creates followers. "sheep," if you will, a flock for the shepards to manipulate. if they are willing to follow a religion, they will follow their religious leaders.
it doesn't matter if it's islam, christianity, judaism or scientology. in the wrong hands, religion can be dangerous.
37 - zingzing
andy, the crusades lasted hundreds of years. maybe they were started by a muslim advance, but the last few (like 2-6) took place nowhere near traditional christian lands. i'm not saying the christians are totally to blame. both are responsible.
your reasoning is that of a child. "he started it!" whatever.
you need to relearn a lot of things.
38 - Andy Marsh
I know you folks don't like wikipedia...
But it's the easiest and usually nuetral source...
On the Crusades The immediate cause of the First Crusade was Alexius I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire had been defeated, and this defeat led to the loss of all but the coastlands of Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Although the East-West Schism was brewing between the Catholic Western church and the Greek Orthodox Eastern church, Alexius I expected some help from a fellow Christian. However, the response was much larger, and less helpful, than Alexius I desired, as the Pope called for a large invasion force to not merely defend the Byzantine Empire but also retake Jerusalem.
39 - zingzing
andy, where do you live that you don't run into muslims every day? have they ever killed you? hit you? even looked at you funny?
when's the last time you heard about muslim on christian violence in america? now reverse that.
your three examples of muslims being peaceful:
3/13/06, 3/12/06, 3/11/06.
40 - Andy Marsh
I didn't bring up the crusades...YOU DID! They are ancient history.
My whole point before YOU bought up ancient history was it doesn't matter what anybody did hundreds of years ago. What matters is what happens today. It's the 21st century and you don't fire bomb buildings for FUCKING cartoons.
Where is the moral outrage from the MILLIONS of moderate Muslims?
41 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"ruvy, you must admit that your "defintion" of islam is not going to be the most fair or balanced... you're jewish, and your country is at war with several elements of islam."
I haven't heard any Moslems argue with my definition. Have you? A number of times, I have addressed Molems telling them that this is how I view them - and I get no arguments. The definition comes from a scholar of Islam, Dr. Asher Eder, and was agreed to by a Sufi scholar, Sheikh Prof. Abdulhadi Palazzi. I do not mention Mohammed in the definition (most Moslems would, as a matter of course) because it would then make it problematic for a Moslem to then claim Abraham to be a Moslem, which all Moslems do.
A different definition of Islam, which unfortunately some Jews have convinced themselves of, is that it is essentially a pagan religion worshipping the moon god. I would suggest that Jews accepting this definition would be strongly influenced by the fact that we are at war with a number of Arab countries.
In spite of my views, I do not hold this view of Moslems at all. I believe that there will be a reconciliation between Jews and Arabs spearheaded on a religious basis, not a political one.
42 - Andy Marsh
Good dates to pick zing...didn't they just find 87 bodies in a mass grave in Bagdhad? Muslims being peaceful.
43 - zingzing
whatever. they are ancient history. that you paint as the muslim's fault. done.
you don't firebomb buildings for cartoons, and you don't paint 1.4 billion for the actions of a few, okay?
i don't know where the moderate muslims are. probably pretty offended by both sides... probably staying out of it. they'd rather not get anyone angry.
44 - Michael J. West
Andy, did you read the last sentence of that Wikipedia quote?
However, the response was much larger, and less helpful, than Alexius I desired, as the Pope called for a large invasion force to not merely defend the Byzantine Empire but also retake Jerusalem.
The Crusades were, according to the very text you provided, not just a defense of the Byzantine Empire. They were the result of the Pope suddenly deciding that he could use Muslim incursions into Byzantium as an excuse to invade Jerusalem, which by then had been in Muslim hands for 400 years.
And even if they WERE just a defense of the Byzantine Empire, then the Empire itself would deserve at least as much blame as the Muslims, being that they were unable to defend their own territory enough to win the Battle of Manzikert.
45 - Michael J. West
It's the 21st century and you don't fire bomb buildings for FUCKING cartoons.
I think we're approaching this the wrong way here. I don't think this is about modern times; it's about the relative maturity of a religion.
Islam is now about 1,350 years old.
When Christianity was 1,350 years old, it was embroiled in Crusades and Inquisitions, Holy Wars and internal battles.
Much like Islam today.
Perhaps ANY religion at about that age would exhibit these kinds of behaviors, no matter WHAT century it is. After all, 13-year-old children in 2006 act the same way (immaturely) as 13-year-old children did in 1406. Why should it be a surprise that 1300-year-old religions in 2006 act the same way as 1300-year-old religions in 1406?
46 - Andy Marsh
Again, should it really matter who started it all and why? Looks like the Muslims AND the Christians BOTH lost Jerusalem! It apparently does matter, but should it?
Are the crusades what got the Danish embassies bombed? Are they what got the train in Madrid bombed or the London subway or the World Trade Center? No, it was wild animals on the loose and someone needs to cage their pets!
I don't doubt that there are peaceloving Muslims in the world...alot of them for that matter...but you are your brothers keeper, whether you like it or not.
47 - Andy Marsh
That's probably a very true statement Michael.
48 - zingzing
i said "in america," andy, didn't i? you wanted examples of muslims being peaceful. there you go. how many americans murdered americans in the past few days? quite a few. but most were peaceful. your brush is too big. every day, most muslims the world over are 100% peaceful, going about their day. what's happening in iraq isn't normal, and i think u.s. actions have plenty to do with the fact that civil war is on its way.
ruvy--point taken. still, your views on the muslim world have to be taken with a grain of salt. i don't trust you to be 100% fair, and i can see why you wouldn't be. i wouldn't be either. i'm probably not. the more you protest, the more i doubt.
49 - Logician
So many words to read....so many opinions. Here's a couple more: Sir Arthur C. Clark said, "One of the greatest tragedies in human history was the hijacking of morality by religion."
And Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906) said, "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
I have long been of the opinion that ALL religions were invented in order to gain power over others. It is also my firm belief that religion has done more harm to humanity than anything else.
I expect the sheep will want to kill me for my views.
50 - zingzing
looks like andy may be coming around... i made the same point as mike does in #45 in my comment #15, which he dismissed quite easily.
four hours! keep pushing!
51 - zingzing
religion is the product of mind-altering drugs and/or malnutrition.
52 - Andy Marsh
and I said it was time to catch up and I still think it's time to catch up...
53 - Andy Marsh
I'd say I agree more with Logician than anyone...I felt that religion was a controlling thing in peoples lives most of my life...I've probably been subjected to more religion than a lot of people in this country and I stepped away from it a long time ago.
54 - Baronius
Andy, good luck educating a modern audience on the Crusades. People have too many preconceptions. One needs an understanding of the sweep of history to understand the Crusades.
For example, the Muslims "were" in Jerusalem, and the Christians tried to drive them out. They succeeded, but then somehow the Muslims "were" back in Jerusalem. The Muslims "were" in Spain, almost "were" in Vienna, "were" in Byzantium. The Christians responded to this were-ness by trying to drive them out.
Maybe the problem is that in the last 50 years, the Muslim advance in the West has been non-violent. Maybe people think that Islam has always advanced through passports and prison conversions. Thanks to our public schools, Americans don't understand the spread of Islam (or anything pertaining to religious history).
55 - Baronius
"At the end of the day, even after "Piss Christ," Christianity was still the dominant religion in the United States controlling all aspects of government policy making from the local to federal level. Muslims don't have the benefit of any of this. Instead, they have a white Christian controlled government opressing them on a worldwide scale."
Ben, let's compare "Piss Christ" to the Dutch cartoons.
"Piss Christ" was a work of art in a Christian country, protected by the government. The Dutch cartoons were produced in a (nominally) Christian country. Imagine a similar anti-Muslim work of art produced in Saudi Arabia. The artist would be executed by the government.
In the West, "Piss Christ" recieved a mixed reaction, although it energized a section of the electorate. I don't know of any reaction in Arab countries. In the West, the Dutch cartoons recieved a mixed reaction, and were rarely duplicated out of respect for Islam. In Arab countries, there were riots and murders.
The West was unfazed by "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" being broadcasted in Egypt. I think there's a big difference: Americans don't care what other people think of them, for better or worse. The Arab street seems obsessed with international perception.
56 - Bustyn
Why don't we hear any prominent followers of Islam condemning the so called "radical muslims", if the radicals are really in the minority? Seriously, when Robertson says something that is inconsistent with the Christian faith, you hear many many prominent Christian leaders condemning him. Why doesn't this happen in the Islamic community when the "radicals" behave in the most violent of ways? One can only conclude that it's because their activity is silently condoned if not encouraged by the remaining members in general.
57 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Bustyn - Maybe you should learn Arabic. These guys do argue, but in the language of the Qur'an. And their style of argumentation is different to what you are used to.
For the most part Moslem scholars are trying to reach their own adherents, not you, and the same goes for non-scholars who enter into the debate.
You might want to look at the deeper pages of the Al Jezeera web-site inwtead of just what is featured as headline news on Google or CNN. Also, you could check out Desicritics. You'd be surprised what you find...
Not every Moslem is a bearded idiot screaming death to the Great Satan.
58 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Baronius, you wrote, "The West was unfazed by "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" being broadcasted in Egypt."
Maybe you should have amended that to "the Christian West."
We Jews were fazed. And pissed off.
Maybe destroying a few mosques and firebombing Egyptian embassies (or gutting the one in Tel Aviv) is the only thing that Arabs do understand.
Also, I couldn't help noticing that in your "sweeping vistas of history" discussing the Crusades, the fact that basically crusaders sharpened their swords murdering Jews as they wended their ways to Jerusalem got passed over.
Not that I'm surprised...
59 - Dave Nalle
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. That applies to Robertson's stopped brain as well.
Dave
60 - ahy
Chrstians kill alot more people than muslims. and thats a fac. and for every violent crime commited by muslims i can give you 10 commited by Chrstians.
61 - Ahab
[quote] Andy, good luck educating a modern audience on the Crusades. People have too many preconceptions. One needs an understanding of the sweep of history to understand the Crusades.[/quote]
Yes, indeed one does. One needs to understand that, in the noble spirit of the Crusades, they decided to pay a friendly visit to Constantinopole in 1204, and took the oportunity to sack it, bringing the Byzantium to the point of collapse. It wasn't a pretty sight, let me tell you, but it was quite a loot. Pay a visit to San Marco in Venice, it looks awfully "eastern" for some reason. But I guess it's all fine; after all it was an attempt (failed) to civilize those barbaric and pagan "easterners" as well, which weren't much better than the muslims or the jews anyways. Ironic is that, while suposedly defended the christianity from the muslims, the Crusdes accomplished exactly the opposite: they ralied the pretty much scattered muslims against a common enemy and weakend beyond recovery Byzantium, making it much easier for Mehmed to conquer it in 1453. Of course, when real defense agains the muslim invasion was in question (in XIII century), the westerners didn't bother that much; it was after all about those schismatics in the east which refuse to kiss our holly father pinky ring.
I suggest you read some real history on the crusdes and not the ones published by the Vatican.
But one poster (I forget which one) is right this wasn't then (and it isn't now) really about the teaching of a certain religion but rather about using the religion to achieve whatever social or political end.
Appologies for possibly bad english....
62 - dag
Most of what I read above is opinion based on little or nothing to do with history or reason. You might like to look at the books shown at the top of the page, maybe even read them, and perhaps think about what you read.
Those who care to express opinions on this topic of Islam as a religion of peace might like to read any number of transaltions of the Qur'an, all of which are more or less the same, forget the nonsense that not reading it in Arabic nullifies the undeerstanding. It's violent, incoherent tripe in any language.
And once one has waded through the rubbish that is the Qur'an, there comes the task of dealing with what is valid and what is abrogated. "there is no complusion in Islam" is abrogated by sura 9:5. "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. Smite them at the neck and cut off their fingertips."
Once one has read the whole damned thing there is still the problem of making sense of any of it, which means turning to the ahadith for clarifications not availabe t the average reader. Even there one finds strong, medium, and weak hadiths. The strong consistently across the four schools of Islamic law all promote and even demand violence against non-Muslims.
Then, once one has gotten through the crap that is not allowed to change or be interpreted for close to 1,000 years, there comes the time when one is forced todeal with oneself as one is as a person:
Are you honest or are you someone who truly wishes to follow the crowd and let others do you thinking for you so you'll never be stressed out mentally or live in fear of seeming out of popular poses?
Do you truly want to play games of lazy and dispicable moral equivelence by writing that the Bible and the Gita are just as violent as the Qur'an? If you do then you are the loser, and there is no further help for you unless honesty is someday something you value more than the love of the fools around you who applaud like seals at the aqurium when you hold up a rotten fish.
You can find out about the history of Islam from reputable sources if it's important to you. You won't like it. Or you can read the paper and listen to the taqqiya of whoever is the day's popular spinner. The price of living a lie is pretty steep. It might come to being the price of your life.
63 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Andy says,
"...I know I'm full of shit, that's why my eyes are brown."
At last!! Someone who comprehends the intricate relationships between genetics and faeces. Take a bow, me boy, there are damned few as wise as you. Only, uh, don't leave another "deposit" in the process. ;-)
64 - Andy Marsh
Ruvy - my blue eyed father always tells me that's why my eyes are brown...I figured...Dad wouldn't lie to me!
65 - JP
Let's not kid ourselves--we can't paint all Muslims with the same brush, or we have to call all Christians Muslim hating lunatics for what some Americans are doing right now to behave prejudicially toward Muslims.
Yes, the illogic of that statement is intended to illustrate how out of touch Robertson is. After his comments about wanting justices to die, and how New Orleans flooded to clean out the sin, he doesn't deserve respect.
66 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Andy, no matter how full of shit my kids are, I can't tell them that. They have the grey blue eyes of their mom and dad...
67 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris, I had a ten paragraph answer that I just managed to lose by hitting the wrong key...
I'll have to get back to this.
68 - Gabriel
Robertson was saying what most Americans think. Not all Americans, but most of us are tired of the religion of peace line. Other than that Robertson is a nut.
69 - Thomas M. Sipos
There are, what, about a BILLION MUSLIMS in the world? How many are involved in terrorism? Hundreds? Maybe thousands at most? That's still 0.0001% of the total.
Yes, there are savage statements in the Koran. But so too in the Old Testament.
Nor do a billion Muslims seek to take over the world. They are a billion individuals, same as everyone else.
To deny them, or anyone else, their individuality is anti-libertarian, anti-American, anti-conservative, and anti-Christian.
70 - zingzing
muslims are not inherently bad people. islam is not any worse than any other religion.
bad people use islam to work up emotional, radical responses, and you have fallen for it. you are being manipulated.
what this post has to say is bordering (actually, it's running right across that border,) on bigotry.
tolerance is a good thing. understanding that what one muslim person does does not reflect what all muslim people do is pretty fucking simple. that's a fucked up sentence.
71 - Mark
Actually studies show that about 10% of Muslims are of the violent stripe. The real problem with Islam is that it IS rooted in violence. The Koran lists the pillars necessary to be a good practicing Muslim. One of those pillars is jihad, it is required that you try to convert people by the sword. Just look at what happened to north Africa in the two centuries after Mohammad "recieved" the Koran from Allah. What is interesting is the fact that the Muslims who are practicing their faith best are the most violent. We should either get rid of Muslims or make it mandatory that Muslims have to be only moderate, marginal, cafeteria Muslims.
Islam is rooted in violence. The religion itself is rooted in violence. To say that not all Muslims are violent misses the point, they may not be violent in action, but they hold to a belief system which requires violence in order to be pious.
While the best Muslims are the most violent, conversely the best Catholics are the most peaceful. This juxaposition shows Islams essentially evil nature and Catholicisms divine nature.
72 - Mark
Tolerance doesnt mean that everyone is right, no matter what they believe because they choose to believe in it. Some things are right and others are wrong. Its called objective truth and it does exist. It is not intolerant to say that someone else believes in something that is wrong. Otherwise, what would teachers be, except really intolerant people.
73 - gonzo marx
Andy..i'm ashamed and greatly disappointed in you for this Article...
your whole position on this Thread has been semantically, symbolically and logically the exact same as if you said
"what is with these Jersey folks? the Mafia guys kill people, and they are from Jersey...therefore all Jersey folks are evil Mafia guys that kill people and i hate them..."
bah....
Excelsior!
74 - Bliffle
Western people will continue to distrust Islam until it displays the ability to deal with it's radical elements. Until then, the West will perceive Islam as lacking internal control and requiring outside control. That's the bloody result of inaction.
75 - Andy Marsh
gonzo - I've said it several times in the comment section...until the moderates of this religion are louder than the extremists...I'll never consider this religion peaceful.