Hysterical extremists seem to think we're declaring war on Iran. Are they lying or are they just unbelievably stupid?
Based on the recently submitted and very likely to pass House Resolution 362, many on the extremist fringes of both the right and the left are announcing in dire (or hysterical) tones that we're on the verge of war with Iran.…
Article comments
76 - Dave Nalle
Conrad, based on #69 and #70 you clearly believe that Japan was not justified in attacking the US despite our embargo on the oil they needed to run their country. So you'd presumably therefore agree that Iran would not be justified in considering American measures against them to be acts of war, correct?
Dave
77 - Dave Nalle
when the shah's repressive regime was overturned by Iranian students
That would the the 'repressive' regime which created the universities those students studied in and the economic prosperity which made it possible for them to go to university in the first place. And those would be the students who took and imprisoned more political prisoners in their first year in power than the Shah had in 17 years.
So what you're arguing is that if a regime is created under questionable circumstances and then rules well, it's okay to overthrow it and replace it with a much more repressive regime on that basis. So tyranny is okay, so long as it's tyranny that's anti-western, right?
Dave
78 - Conrad Dalton
"So tyranny is okay, so long as it's tyranny that's anti-western, right?"
Wrong.
The issus is who started the cycle of tyranny and violence. In case you haven't noticed, violence begets violence.
79 - Dave Nalle
LOL. Who started it? When the Franks defeated the Moors at Roncesvalles who was the invader? Who was defending their home territory at Thermopylae?
The cycle of tyrrany and violence and conflict between east and west goes back at least 3000 years. You're buying into the insanity which drives the Jihadist mentality if you start playing the 'who went first' game.
Dave
80 - Conrad Dalton
The only 'who went first' game that really matters is the one being played now.
81 - Dan Miller
The only 'who went first' game that really matters is the one being played now.
It seems a tad academic if not callous to refer to these things as a game, sort of like soccer, where no evil is involved, but what the hell. So be it.
Actually, this seems to be one of the principal arguments against the death penalty; no matter how horrific the crime, the vicious rape of a small child, for example, may have been, the only thing that matters is that the death penalty is wicked because, well, uh, because it is. All enlightened folks know that and those who don't, should.
Dan
82 - Dave Nalle
Conrad, if you're going to set an arbitrary limit on what parts of history to remember, I say let's start remembering things at 9/11 and forget whatever went before. How's that?
Dave
83 - bliffle
Seems like people just can't resist harking up some kind of contrived moralism to 'justify' their ideas of international affairs. Gee, I thought it was all about naked power. What happens? If you lose do you sue for 'justice' in hopes of wresting victory from defeat?
84 - Dave Nalle
Naked power sounds good to me, Bliffle. At least it's honest.
Dave
85 - Conrad Dalton
"Naked power sounds good to me... At least it's honest."
-- Adolf Hitler?
86 - Clavos
""Naked power sounds good to me... At least it's honest."
-- Adolf Hitler?"
Possibly.
Also, FDR, JFK, and LBJ, among others.
87 - Conrad Dalton
Compared to Adolf Hitler, FDR, JFK, and LBJ are not in the same category.
But in their class, GWB deserves mention.
88 - Clavos
"Compared to Adolf Hitler, FDR, JFK, and LBJ are not in the same category."
In your opinion.
In terms of the use of naked power, (the original point, remember?) they are most definitely in his class; in fact, FDR used naked power to the extent of defeating Hitler's naked power.
Nobody since WW II has even begun to approach the USA's use of "naked power."
And, as an American, I'm glad.
89 - bliffle
The USA has actually been pretty efective at using naked power for the last 60 years. I do wish, however, that all that cleverness had been put to better purpose. Namely, advancing the causes of USA citizens instead of the Vested Interests, which, more and more, are speaking with foreign accents.
90 - Conrad Dalton
"FDR used naked power to the extent of defeating Hitler's naked power."
Naked power is power devoid of justice or morality.
FDR had justice and morality on his side.
Adolf Hitler's only competition is Joseph Stalin.
91 - Dave Nalle
Conrad, you earlier suggested that Bush was on a par with Hitler and presumably Stalin.
As for FDR's 'morality' you must have a different definition of the word. FDR may have been an angel compared to Hitler, but that's hardly a great accomplishment. More damage was done to the rights of citizens during his period in power than under any president before and since, including the dreaded GWB.
Dave
92 - Clavos
"Naked power is power devoid of justice or morality."
According to whom?
Wikipedia attributes this definition of naked power to Bertrand Russell:
"...naked power is the ruthless exertion of force without the desire for, or attempt at, consent."
Which is a pretty accurate description of the USA's wielding of power over the past 60 or 70 years.
93 - Conrad Dalton
"Conrad, you earlier suggested that Bush was on a par with Hitler and presumably Stalin."
No such suggestion was made.
"Compared to Adolf Hitler, FDR, JFK, and LBJ are not in the same category. But in their class, GWB deserves mention
"Not in the same category" is not the same as "on a par."
94 - Conrad Dalton
"Naked power is power devoid of justice or morality."
"According to whom?"
Most likely Machiavelli.
95 - Cary Ace Bowers Jr
death is the moral teaching of govts,just like on our roadways of life,everyone really wants to kill each other,go on,the meek get the planet afterwards!!!
96 - Dan Miller
Looks like things are heating up a tad, what with the Iranian long range missile tests and Russian unhappiness over a deal to put radar sites in one of its former satellite countries. Even Deputy Warmonger in chief Rice is talking about defending our interests and those of our allies.
Obviously, this is all a giant conspiracy among the wicked Bush administration, Iran, Israel and Russia so that the U.S. elections can be canceled and to obtain passage of the despised spying legislation so favored by all of them.
It's a vast right wing conspiracy, I tell ya.
Dan
97 - Dave Nalle
The cleverest part of the neocon conspiracy is the way they've recruited Iran to be a bunch of militaristic and expansionistic warmongers just so they have someone to motivate themselves against.
Dave
98 - Dan Miller
Dave,
Believe me, it wasn't easy, particularly for a bunch of stupid neocons who, we all know, can't do anything
rightcorrectly.Dan
99 - Dr Dreadful
Anyone else thoroughly amused by the dodgy Photoshop job done by someone in the Revolutionary Guard in an attempt to cover up the fact that one of the missiles failed to fire?
100 - Dave Nalle
Wow, that's pretty blatant. You would think that with their resources they could find someone a bit more competent and a bit more creative. I wonder if they use the same guy who doctored all those photos of Israeli attacks on civilians for Hezbollah.
Dave
101 - Dan Miller
Dave,
Remember how terrified we were back during the cold war days over the tremendous competence and stellar military abilities of the USSR?
It's always silly to under-estimate one's enemies, but it's almost as silly to over-estimate them.
Dan
102 - Dave Nalle
I lived in Russia at the time, Dan. I figured that if they couldn't make the elevator or heat in our apartment building work they weren't likely to be able to dominate the world. As an ideology Marxism seems to have had more success since the USSR fell working through their old network of organizations and agents which are still alive and well.
I always figured that if a nuclear war started and the launch command went out half the soviet missiles would be duds and a good number of them would hit the wrong targets or blow up on launch - that's in the unlikely event their launch crews were sober enough to launch them - but enough would get through to really piss us off and that our missiles would work and wouldn't miss.
Dave
103 - Dr Dreadful
As Dan says, Dave...
I'm fairly sure that at least part of the reason nothing worked or could be bought when you lived in the USSR was that the bulk of resources was diverted to the military.
Remember that that military defeated the German Wehrmacht in 1945, quashed revolutions in Hungary and Czechoslovakia and kept half of Europe under its thumb for almost half a century.
You're probably right in your assessment that they weren't nearly as formidable and unbeatable as they were made out to be, but your surmise that any attack on the West would have fallen flat is very blasé.
104 - Dave Nalle
Well, that's a theory, Dr. D. But rather than letting their veterans sit around and drink on the dole all day they might have tried putting them to work so they could use the skills they learned in the nuclear silos to fix elevators or furnaces or hot water heaters. But the truth was that under the soviet system they got paid whether they worked or not, so they generally preferred not.
I'm sure that they could have put together some kind of most unpleasant nuclear attack. They certainly tried pretty hard to make that possible. But based on all the problems they had towards the end of the cold war and after with defective equipment and decomissioning warheads I suspect that the glowing reports that went with every 5-year plan were mostly bullshit.
Dave
105 - bliffle
Dan sez:
"It's always silly to under-estimate one's enemies, but it's almost as silly to over-estimate them."
How a about trying to correctly estimate ones enemies? How about trying to get it right from the start instead of using the lazy persons method of applying a fudge factor to inaccurate estimates?
106 - Clavos
"How a about trying to correctly estimate ones enemies? How about trying to get it right from the start instead of using the lazy persons method of applying a fudge factor to inaccurate estimates?"
Wow. Profound...
107 - Dave Nalle
Gee Bliffle, sounds like in your administration you'd like to bring in some experts on foreign intelligence and policy. Perhaps some folks from a think tank like PNAC would be useful to you.
Dave
108 - Dan Miller
Here is something I find a bit scary, and as to which I must confess I hadn't previously given much thought.
It seems that Iran, and/or a bunch other neat folks, could without much difficulty or expense launch an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack on the U.S., which might even disable BlogCritics. Collateral damage could easily deprive the U.S. of just about everything dependent upon electricity. The article goes on in some detail.
Doubtless the infallible experts referred to elsewhere on the thread have the problem all figured out and can deal with it appropriately. The teeny weeny lingering reservations I feel are probably unwarranted, but then I'm just a scardy cat.
Dan
109 - bliffle
Good grief! Now we have the newest EMP threat that I've been hearing about for 50 years. Maybe longer.
People REALLY should take some good science courses at the Junior College down the street so they're not lead around like children by such nonsense.