As violence escalates, the crisis in Xianjiang is becoming too large for the Chinese government to continue to ignore or cover up.
In the west we don't always have easy access to news coming out of China where the media is kept on a tight leash and forced to make concessions in what they cover in order to get any access at all. Despite this partial news blackout, events in trouble Xianjiang Province are escalating to the point where the Chinese government cannot keep a lid on what is turning into another grim chapter in their long history of human rights abuses.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Ruvy
(Paragraph two of your article could have the names changed to Palestinians Israel, Israelis....
Why am I not surprised that Cindy tries to hustle the "poor Palestian" garbage into this situation. As if the Han Chinese are surrounded by 50 billion Turks have to fight for their very existence in a world that hates them and is willing to exterminate them likew so many cockroaches or rats.
These are the actions of an empire (China) crushing the inhabitants of an outer province (Chnese Turkestan), not a that of a small nation seeking refuge from a world ready to kill them off.
27 - Cindy
Ruvy,
I am afraid you are not going to appreciate my follow up article on the Free Gaza Movement. I am just offering you preparation.
I do not see this is not a battle between you and me.
28 - Cindy
Garbled, but you know what I mean.
(BTW, three cheers to BC for the unpagination! Thanks! It so helpful! Yay!)
29 - Lumpy
On a percentage basis there are a lot fewer terrorists among the uighurs than among Palestinians and no organization like Hamas. Cindy makes an inept comparison.
30 - Cindy
Lumpy,
It's only inept for those who automatically legitimate governments when they terrorize people.
Which means there are a whole lot more terrorists in Israel's government being that it is also a terrorist organization.
31 - Cindy
"Maybe independent terrorists rationalize killing people the same way as nation terrorists; maybe they just redefine it by calling it something like: 'collateral damage'. I wonder if the dead care which kind of terrorist murdered them." " tolstoyscat
32 - Peter
First, I wonder if people here know that PAP and the army are busy keeping the Han mobs out of concentrated Uighur neighborhoods and disperse them? As you should know, Chinese government fear the Han much more than the minorities due to quite a few historic reasons.
Second, I also wonder how much of Rebiya Kadeer should I believe given the following 4 facts:
1. She had 11 children, which confirms that Uighurs were not subject to China's One Child Policy.
2. She was born to a family with no background. She started her business with a road side convenient store and worked her way to be THE richest person in the province of Xinjing. This proved Uighurs can earn their business success through hard work.
3. She was a senior member of the People's Congress of Xinjing, and a senior member of the National People's Congress of China. This shows Uighurs were not excluded from political life in China.
4. She was arrested because she provided funding to Eastern Turkestan and carried out activities in China following instructions from Eastern Turkestan. Eastern Turkestan is labeled as terrorist organization by most countries including the US, Russia, China, etc.
And lastly, if living side by side prove to be impossible, isn't it time that the Chinese start using what US is doing with Native Americans and "quarantine" troublesome minorities in special locations and let them autonomously self-rule, let them build casinos, and get media to entirely ignore them as much as possible?
33 - Dave Nalle
That last paragraph about the native americans is absolutely classic agitprop. It's like a radioactive marker on the whole post. Comes straight out of the dialectical handbook of arguments to use when arguing with Americans.
Dave
34 - Ruvy
Comment 29: On a percentage basis there are a lot fewer terrorists among the Uighurs than among Palestinians and no organization like Hamas. Cindy makes an inept comparison.
Comment 30: It's only inept for those who automatically legitimate governments when they terrorize people.
Which means there are a whole lot more terrorists in Israel's government being that it is also a terrorist organization.
Actually Lumpy's comparison is a very accurate one. And Cindy's is terribly inept. Working on the "given" that the Chinese government is a terrorist organization, we can say equally that the Israeli government is a terrorist organization - it is. Though what Cindy misses - along with everyone else pursuing the meme of "poor poor Palestinian" - is that the Israeli government also pursues terror against Jews here as well. It is a very discriminitory and racist bunch, fllede with all the hate that only "leftists" cna carry for generations.
But either way, there is no equivalent to the terror group Hamas, the Arab rape gangs in the Galilee who rape non-Moslem women out of hatred for Jews and Israel, the murderers from the various terror groups associated with el-FataH (trained by the Americans) who shoot at Jewish drivers on the road in Samaria. The basic attitude that the only good "Jew is a dead Jew" that infuses all of the heretical Wahhabi philosophy that inspires both Hamas and el-FataH is not found among the Uigurs tregarding the Chinese. Of course, if the Chinese continue their present course, they will "grow" a similar attitude among Uigurs as well.
If you stop painting Arab terrorists as saints, Cindy, I'll stop displaying them for the human trash they are. Just letting you know in advance.... I do not see this as a battle between you and me.
35 - Clavos
I'm wondering, publicly, why all comments referring to the interference in this thread by paid Chinese government shills are being removed?
And by whom?
36 - roger nowosielski
First, we'd have to establish they are shills, Clav. And secondly, is "wondering publicly" comparable to "thinking out laud"?
37 - Christopher Rose
That's easy to answer, Clavos. The comment by Peter, regardless of its origin or motivation, was a valid comment.
The comments that followed, starting with Lumpy's, were personal attacks on him or responses to those remarks and so were deleted.
You have no way at all of knowing if Peter is genuine, sincere, just highly motivated or a Chinese government shill.
38 - Peter
Dave, perhaps it is true of what you said, but after going through history classes, looking at daily events in newspapers, and major online news, I cannot help but wonder about Native Americans and their general lack of mentions.
For Example, I remember a few years ago, one of their high schools had a tragic student killing events. The mainstream media reported all for about 2 days. Then a few weeks later, a high school in their reservations have another student killings, the mainstream media reported for over a week.
Perhaps my observation is not complete, but it matches what I saw and heard.
You know in our country, we have mainstream culture, Black American culture, Hispanic American culture and many other cultures that we are in daily contact with. The one that seems to be missing is the Native American culture.
Is it a coincidence or on purpose?
39 - Peter
Whoops, correction:
Then a few weeks later, a high school not of Native Americans had a student killings, the mainstream media reported for over a week.
40 - Peter
Blog report on XinJiang incident from a UK reporter with first hand experience.
41 - Dave Nalle
First, we'd have to establish they are shills, Clav.
Actually, in order to state an opinion that they act like shills one only has to observe their actions, not provide any additional factual evidence, because it's just an opinion.
This is where the comment editing has fallen away from just observing the comments policy into a gray area which seems to be rather more subjective.
Dave
42 - Clavos
Shill or not, it's interesting to me that Peter, who claims to be a Chinese citizen, has the unmitigated gall, as a citizen of one of the most repressive societies in the history of the world, to criticize (incorrectly at that) the USA's treatment of Native Americans.
Peter, you Chinese live in a very large glass house in terms of your country's record on human rights.
You should refrain from throwing stones, especially in such an ignorant manner.
43 - Dave Nalle
Dave, perhaps it is true of what you said, but after going through history classes, looking at daily events in newspapers, and major online news, I cannot help but wonder about Native Americans and their general lack of mentions.
Native Americans make up only about 1% of the population, plus an unknown number of Native Americans living integrated in the general society. I suspect that if you did a study they probably get far more than 1% of the news coverage.
You know in our country, we have mainstream culture, Black American culture, Hispanic American culture and many other cultures that we are in daily contact with. The one that seems to be missing is the Native American culture.
What country do you live in again? I guess there are some parts of the US where your observation might apply, but in many others native American traditions play a pretty large role in the culture, especially in the southwest. We have a huge multi-tribe powow here in Austin. And in general popular culture, look at all the images and concepts borrowed from native americans and in common usage.
We've got writers like Tony Hillerman and Charled de Lint who write extensively about native American themes. We've got performers like Cher and Wayne Newton who heavily promote their indian heritage. Until political correctness went wild we had a disproportionate number of sports teams named after native americans.
If anything native american culture is revered in a way that no other is in our society.
Dave
44 - Irene Wagner
I'm part Cherokee, Peter. I don’t have enough Native American blood to be allowed by the US government to run a casino in my garage tax-free, but thanks to my Cherokee heritage, I do have high cheek bones, and am therefore, a major babe. Many highly-paid American runway models, who have reached the utmost tippy-top PINNACLE of consumerist and capitalist society in these United States of America, have high cheek bones as well, and are therefore likely to be Native Americans.
Yes, American Indians were treated HORRIFICALLY, but have been gaining acceptance steadily especially in the last 50 years. "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,” which very sympathetically describes the plight of the American Indian, was a best seller. Cher Bono (“Half-Breed”) was an enormously popular actress and singer of Native American descent. Americans are very interested in Native American spirituality"do you know what “dream-catchers” are Peter? You could manufacture them in China and ship them to America where they would fly off the shelves like roasted insects in a Beijing market. You too, can experience the joys of capitalism right there in the Communist People’s Republic of China, as so many of your compatriots are doing.
Don’t you worry about us Cherokees, Peter. I refer you to the smash hit single Indian Reservation (Lament of the Cherokee)" by “Paul Revere and the Raiders.”
“Maybe someday when we’ve learned, the Cherokee people will return.” Maybe the Uighers are being inspired by a similar song. Better watch out.
45 - Cindy
Actually, in order to state an opinion...one [need] not provide any...factual evidence, because it's just an opinion. --Dave Nalle
Indeed Dave, you are living proof that one only needs a mouth (or some fingers) to provide opinions. One does not even need access to any facts. Just start blabbering.
46 - roger nowosielski
I do agree. Even opinions shouldn't be uninformed. Otherwise, anything goes.
47 - Peter
To Clavos: When did I claim to be a Chinese citizen? Don't put your words in my mouth.
To Dave:
Yes Native Americans are only 1%, sad but true. My words comes from 20+ years day to day observations growing up here. I'm not talking about Native Americans make over 1% in total news media coverage but about the mainstream media tendency to ignore or marginalize them such as in the case of high school attack I have mentioned. Perhaps you are right that in certain parts of the country, Native American culture is missing while in other parts, it is not. The last sentence you said is problematic. Some of us like Native American culture, others like other kind of cultures that exists here but none is revered. The icons and symbols we can use, but it doesn't guarantee all of us know what they meant, or inspire us to know all about the Native American people. Sometimes it is just a trend. Why do you think all the political correctness went wild all of a sudden?
To Irene: Your first sentence is funny. Third sentence is highly speculative.
Gaining acceptance is great, but my point is that they are still marginalized heavily in mainstream media while wild political correctness is prevalent against them.
As for Cher, she is not as "half-breed" as you think.
I know what dream catcher is and I know they were trendy at one time.
That last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is funny especially too as if China didn't have them already.
I don't worry too much about the Native Americans. I leave that for themselves. Do you think that special reservations are good for Native Americans? If so, then perhaps China should do that as well to its troubled minorities? If not, then shouldn't we also live among them like we are doing with all the other ethnic groups we have?
48 - Cindy
I think reservations are good for people who like governments and constitutions and ruling things. I would put them all in a reservation and build a great big wall around them with a screen across the top so they could breath. Then the rest of the world could just live.
49 - Clavos
To Clavos: When did I claim to be a Chinese citizen?
Point taken, Peter, you have not.
So my reference to you in comment #42 should read:
Shill or not, it's interesting to me that Peter has the unmitigated gall, as an apologist for one of the most repressive societies in the history of the world, to criticize (incorrectly at that) the USA's treatment of Native Americans.
50 - Dave Nalle
As for Cher, she is not as "half-breed" as you think
Which goes even more to proving my point. That she should choose to exaggerate her native american heritage and that she and others consider this an asset to her career says a great deal about how native american culture is viewed in this country.
Dave
51 - Dave Nalle
Regarding the issue of Chinese shills, I think we established previously that they are not necessarily Chinese natives. There seems to be a network of communists living outside of China who are sympathetic to China and/or in their pay who do this shilling. As I recall previously many of them seemed to be Australian.
Either that or the Chinese are good at dummying IP addresses.
Peter also still has to get around the problem of syntax which is aberrant in a way characteristic of an educated but non-native English speaker.
Dave
52 - Irene Wagner
Well, Peter, I'm not as "half-breed" as I think, either. My cheekbones look a lot like Cher's though, and if I wanted to, I could make a hit single about being part-Cherokee just like she did because Its.Cool.To.Love.Native.Americans, who are no longer marginalized.
People should be able to live where ever they want. If people want to preserve and celebrate their ethnicity by dwelling in "Little Italy" or "China Town," or "Reservations where one can run casinos and perform rain dances for paying tourists" fine, as long as they aren't forced to do it by a government. Sometimes poverty and prejudice can keep people trapped in a ghetto, and sometimes people prefer to live in ghettos because that's their home away from the "Old Country" home.
Cindy, I believe the founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution were flawed humans who came up with an enduring masterpiece that was bigger than all of them put together. If the US government truly limited its activities to providing security and justice for the people it is supposed to be SERVING, then Americans, and a big chunk of the rest of the world, probably "could just live." (PS - adorable black feral kitty has been caught. Hisses and piteous mews have been replaced by where the hell-is-my-breakfast howls. And now...I must do Saturday chores.)
53 - Christopher Rose
The issue of shilling is a complete red herring and just one of the many ways people like Dave try to devalue the opinions of those they disagree with.
Dave Nalle, the ultimate ideologue, is a shill for his own prejudiced opinions just like everybody else.
Criticising people's writing skills is another blatant and crude attempt to attack the messenger rather than the message and should not be taken seriously by any thoughtful commenter.
54 - Peter
To Clavos: I would careless what kind of title people put on me. You can put on me, and I can put on you, but I prefer not to.
Criticize incorrectly? Then perhaps you approve of what US did to the Native Americans and round them up in reservations?
To Dave: You can say it your way, I can say it in another: In the world of Entertainment, one need to do something special to differentiate one's self against others to achieve fame. Cher hyped that part of herself to achieve stardom.
I believe we should concentrate energy at the topic at hand instead of focusing on character assassinations, witch hunt, wild accusations, or the likes on different voices other than your own group. If you want to go that way, please join politics.
Problem of syntax/grammar to prove your belief it is a characteristic of an "characteristic of an educated but non-native English speaker"? What about those who just sucks at formal writing, not care to proof read, or just not give a rat's ass about syntax/grammar? Can we bundle them all up as non-native English speakers? You bias is starting to show.
55 - STM
Clav, are you up for reading this stuff or would you prefer I wait until Monday to send it when you are less busy?? I'm off home soon, it being 3.45am here.
Is the bellsouth email best, or the other??
56 - Peter
Irene: If you are so proud of yourself and could do what "cher" did, then why don't you? I would gladly see that I'm wrong by your actions (not words).
Perhaps you think that Native Americans were happily participating to live in reservations for you to write that second paragraph? "Sometimes poverty and prejudice can keep people trapped in a ghetto, and sometimes people prefer to live in ghettos because that's their home away from the "Old Country" home." Very right, so which is more prevalent toward Native Americans: Poverty, prejudice, or simply got used to live in the land our government designated them to live in and forgotten the ancestral homeland of the past?
57 - Cindy
*Has been cheerfully noticing Irene's posts.
58 - Clavos
Then perhaps you approve of what US did to the Native Americans and round them up in reservations?
That's exactly what I mean by "criticize incorrectly," Peter.
To this day, no Native American is forced to live on a reservation, and many don't.
The concept of establishing reservations was a flawed solution to the problem of Native American loss of territory, lost in their wars with the United States, but they are not obligated to live on them, and in fact the reservations have freedoms other Americans don't enjoy, including autonomy of administration of their territories, freedom from Federal taxation, etc.
And recently, the Native Americans have found and are exploiting their privileges in very creative and lucrative ways, such as the casinos you mentioned earlier.
The casino concept has worked so well for the Seminoles here in Florida, for example, that they are now the owners of the entire worldwide chain of Hard Rock resorts, which generates a high five figure income for every man, woman and child in the tribe.
In short, US treatment of Native Americans, while not stellar, is so far above the repressive, cruel, feudal Chinese society you defend so vigorously, as to be a model of humane treatment in comparison to China.
59 - Clavos
Go, Stan. Any addy works, mate.
60 - Cindy
Please can someone fix my comment in 57?
61 - Christopher Rose
Cindy, I would if I knew what was wrong with it...
62 - Cindy
Christopher,
I used a left arrow thingy (less than sign) right where the comment disappears. I forgot I cannot do that here because it's read as html. If you remove that it should be okay. TIA.
63 - Ruvy
As interesting as Native Americans are, I thought I would attempt to return this debate to the actual subject at hand, events in Chinese Turkestan. This article at Xinua is its latest attempt to de-legitmize Rebiya Kadeer. Separatism and independence from Chinese domination are indeed issues here - the reason why the regime in Peking ships so many Han Chinese to live in Turkestan - it is attempting to secure its western borders against the many Turkic nations further west. One never knows when these Turkic nations will figure out that by pursuing one Turkic identity together, rather than separately, they will profit from their control of huge stretches of land north of India and south of Russia.
64 - Christopher Rose
Cindy, no you didn't!
65 - Peter
To Clavos: "To this day, no Native American is forced to live on a reservation, and many don't"? This and the next paragraph are an eye opener for me? You are right that reservations are created because of the reasons you wrote, but "they are not obligated to live on them"? So that's why they voluntarily left their ancestral homelands and moved to the reservations? Let's take a look at the Act that "voluntarily" let Indians leave their ancestral land to the reservations: The Indian Removal Act.
And about the Casinos, why don't you try to find out the negative effects and testimonials of Native Americans about building a casino on the Internet?
I can tell you that minorities in China also can born than 1 babies unlike the Han. Comment 32 already provided examples of some of the advantages they get as well. They are also exempt from federal tax. Many of their cultures icons and products (akin to dream catcher) are also there in the mainstream Chinese culture. All the minorities are missing is the full autonomy, but they are not in reservations.
If you expect that every nation on Earth must have their own system akin to what we have, believe what we believe, then you'll continue to argue such things with me and I get bored easily with such repetitions.
66 - Irene Wagner
To #56 Pete: Asian residents of North American Chinatown don't all have the same reason for remaining there. Some "First Americans" stay on reservations (not all do) because Native customs have been resurrected along with a desire for tribal cohesion. Some stay because generational poverty following near extermination during US westward expansion is exacerbated by a genetic disposition to alcholism.
So Peter, I hope you've convinced yourself that Uighers and other ethnic and religious minorities (e.g. those who, like Gao Zhisheng, aren't atheists) should have the freedom to live and congregate where they please in China. After all, if denying these things to Natives in America wasn't a good thing, it isn't a good thing for that to happen to minorities in China.
I'm concerned about human rights in America and China, Peter, and I'm going to be just as charitable as can be and assume that you sincerely share that concern--but you're about 100 years too late directing it toward the plight of the American Indian. What's been done there, sadly, has been done.
67 - Cindy
Hmmm, okay Christopher. Thanks for trying. I will try to remember what I wrote instead.
68 - Cindy
this is what I did
69 - Cindy
Hi Irene,
I believe the founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution were flawed humans who came up with an enduring masterpiece that was bigger than all of them put together.
Bigger than any human, I think, that's what I see as the problem.
If the US government truly limited its activities to providing security and justice for the people it is supposed to be SERVING, then Americans, and a big chunk of the rest of the world, probably "could just live."
Even with the best possible start, as you suggested, it's a failure. I don't see how some people having power over other people will ever work out.
...adorable black feral kitty has been caught. Hisses and piteous mews have been replaced by where the hell-is-my-breakfast howls. :-)
I am resolved to being kittyless for some time to come. As it turns out, someone likes the empty nest idea. I have decided to be indulgent as I have also been indulged.
70 - Irene Wagner
Cindy, I believe that a universal, radical, permanent change in human nature is possible. There, I found the common ground, where I can wave goodbye. (To every thing there is a season. A time to have kits, a time to have cats, a time to recover.)
71 - Cindy
Cindy, I believe that a universal, radical, permanent change in human nature is possible.
I understand why. I, myself, would settle for an insignificant change in a single opinion of a solitary individual, about now. :-)
72 - roger nowosielski
Good luck.
73 - Peter
To Irene: I do not have to convince myself as the minorities already do congregate and have the freedom to live anywhere in China for various reasons such as economical. There are many minorities in various Chinese cities, some inter-marry with other ethnic groups.
Perhaps reservations now have become different than the past. As you clearly said the Native American people are adapting to their situation and made the best use out of it. But you also have pointed out, the process is painful and long, but there are still after effects which you said is a genetic disposition, but I see as the forceful environment factors, such as unemployment, that exacerbate this disposition.
There is no perfect solution to minorities, in US or in China. But the best we do is to gradually improve them. China already did so for most of its minority group. The strongly religious Uighurs and Tibetans are difficult to live with heterogeneous cultures into their lives, but hey if hundreds of years of reservation life made Native Americans survive, hundreds of year of close living with other ethnic groups can make them more open and accepting of other cultures, not just the Hans but the world, perhaps?
74 - Irene Wagner
Peter -- last comment, last paragraph, last sentence. Perhaps.
75 - Irene Wagner
Peter, when you said, "There is no perfect solution to minorities, in US or in China. But the best we do is to gradually improve them," did you meant the best WE do or the best THEY do?
I'm all for the gradual approach, but people who live together in societies can improve each other, don't you think? Why does it have to be one-sided, that diminishes the potential for potential improvement of the society by as much as 50%!
Anyway, Peter, I'm still going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that whether you are a Chinese or American citizen, you have the potential to recognize and intervene when cruelty is being inflicted, even when the victim is someone with whom you disagree vehemently on ideological matters.
Would you please read this short article about civil rights attorney Gao Zhisheng who is being tortured, and consider using whatever influence you may have with other Chinese people to help him, and other religious minorities who may be suffering torture in similar ways?
Thanks a lot Pete! (Sorry if that's too informal -- That's what I call my little brother who has the same name.)