If you need an Iranian missile, a Chinese AK-47, a Philipina slave girl, or a kilo of Colombian cocaine, Venezuela is the place to shop for it.
I've written enough stories about Venezuela and Hugo Chavez' slow march towards totalitarianism. I'd been hoping to just let the issue rest for a while and focus on more pleasant parts of the world. Most people seem to have made up their minds about Chavez, either against him or for him despite all the evidence, so they probably aren't listening anyway. But when I start getting news digests from the services I subscribe to and they fill my email with story after story of things going sour in Venezuela, I can't ignore it because no matter how predictable or inevitable, it's news and deserves to at least be noted.…
Article comments
326 - Zedd
What will soon circulate is a rumor that Chavez set up his loss. He used this referendum to prove that this Venezuela is a democracy. It will soon be said that he designed these elections to dispel the idea that he is a dictator so that he will revisit the issue sometime in the remaining 5yrs of his reign, and be victorious then.
327 - brian
sorry Clavos: crossed wires: I meant to write:
'Now, will Clavos still make his lies about Chavez being a dictator?"
I guess the word dictator naturally associated itself with Bush!
328 - Clavos
Only time will tell, brian, only time will tell.
One swallow does not a summer make.
However, Mr. Chavez does deserve points for abiding by the will of the people--this time.
Now, we shall see if it lasts...
329 - Silver Surfer
Does Brian actually read what people post??
Seems like there are some bizarre replies to stuff, even in my story about Johnny Howard getting rolled last week.
330 - Lapdog
"One swallow does not a summer make."
Shouldn't that be one Big Gulp does not a summer make?
331 - Lapdog
Are you out of your mind? Johnny didn't roll Howard last week. You're just making stuff up.
332 - Dr Dreadful
Re: comment #331:
Let me see, if I hold down the shift key and keep pressing / , what do I get...
Oh, I know: ???????????????????????
333 - Franco
brian
Franco:....Is that a concession speech of respect for the people, or is that a threat? '
brian:....no, thats your paranoia showing
.2. Yes, in Venezuela we have a President that governs for the majority of the Venezuelans. President Chavez accepted his defeat.
3. It was established that President Chavez does not control the public powers in Venezuela. It is time to make that clear in the Venezuelan and international media.
First of all brain, you sound more like Castro then anyone else.
Among international reaction was a message from Cuban leader Fidel Castro who said his ally had shown "courage" and "dignity" in accepting defeat.
OK brain, if your going to run communist propaganda with the big dogs you have got to get a more assertive control on your spin.
Lets look at your claim that I am only showing paranoia in the face of what you assert in saying………”Chavez govt is the most reliable in living memory”.
brian, you could justifiable call my suspicion paranoia, if (1) I was NOT looking at all the facts, and (2) was instead only choose to look at half-facts in attempting to make a spin assertion, but that is not the case.
You on the other hand have only offered up carefully selected half truths and then try to make it appear like the whole truth, thus failing to make your case.
Whether you do this out of sheer naivete, or desetful propanda is not yet clear to me, but for now I will assum it is your naivete resluting in your cheering for what you inocently see as a sheep, and what I see I see as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Fact: If what you and Castro say is true about Chavez.....a President that respects and governs for the majority of the Venezuelans and President Chavez accepted his defeat.......then Chavez would not have also said in the same concession speech (the half you left out)...... “the reform plan is not dead, I do not withdraw one comma of this proposal. This proposal is still alive."
brian, this is not a concession speech of....a President that governs for the majority, this is an announcement of intention to find another way to get his changes to the Constitution incased.
If Chavezs own words of prophesy are not enough of a warning to you, Mario Isea, Chavez congressional leader of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Chavezs congressional bloc that controls congress) said following the NO vote victory......."Chavez allies in congress have not given up on making them a reality through the legislature".
More facts: Chavezs long time best Bolivarian revolutionary movement ally and friend, Former Defense Minister General Raúl Baduel said......
“the draft reform on the Constitution entails a "deep change" from the Bolivarian movement that he and President Hugo Chávez started together within the army in 1983”.
General Raul Baduel, in a national address urged the Venezuelan people to remain vigilant against further attempts to introduce anti-conditional reforms and said......
"I am issuing an alert to the country, we need to be on alert to the possibility of Chavez imposing these changes in an unconstitutional and undemocratic way. We need to remain conscious of the possibility that the president could attempt to reach the same results through the legislative process"
brian, General Raul Baduel warning mirrors Chavezs congressional leader Mario Iseais asserting that that is in fact what is planned.
Now with all due respect for all the facts brian, which is it?
Has Chavez (excepted his defeat) and fully intends to respect the vote of majority as you and Castro seem to assert, OR, are we to believe Chavez other statements that go along with his congressional leaders when they say they do not withdraw one comma of this referendums proposal and will not given up on making them a reality through the legislature.
Which one of Chavezs statements do we believe brain?
If we are to believe you brain, all this talk of futher inacting the referendum following the "NO vote" by Chavez and his congressional leaders never said. If that were true then General Raul Baduel warnings about what they are clearly saying and he is warning the nation about is just needless paranoia, like you claim I am showing.
While you bask is the lu lu sunnyland of naivete and make statements like.......Chavez govt is the most reliable in living memory....Chaevz and his cronies is the legislature are planning on dimming the lights in the back rooms of congress and preparing for Referendum round II.
This will happen in the same room all these same guys who voted 160 to 3 in favor of the entire constitutional changes who drafted them at Chavezs insistence.
brian, in light of all the facts, I urge you to be open to discussion/debate on all of them. That is both the honest and courageous thing to do. I hope you choose this over naivete, because naivete is not a valid excuse in the same way ignorance is not an excuse for the law.
By the way, nice work on getting a handle on how to use HTML links in your posts.
Franco
334 - moonraven
"I have mixed feelings about the referendum results.
As someone who lives in Latin America (Mexico for 15 years) and who spends time in Venezuela and supports the Bolivarian project as one of the VERY few on the planet that is positive I would have liked to see folks less fearful, more ready to risk the status quo in pursuit of something a lot better.
I also know the electorate"not just in Venezuela but here in Mexico and also in the US"of which I am a citizen, still"and how easy it is to manipulate it by fear.
It was precisely fear that was used as The Big Stick in this referendum: Fear that a very popular president was going to become a dictator in the very unhealthy tradition that has existed here, in every instance with either the active installation of same by the Us"or at the very least with its active support"which has created a history of terror and misery.
The fact that most countries in the European Union, for example, do not set term limits for their presidents was conveniently not part of the fear-based propaganda that bludgeoned the Venezuelan electorate.
The opposition"I would like to HOPE"will mature some after this victory, but I doubt it.
The Opposition has not grown in number"as it marshalled a mere three hundred thousand more voters to its cause in the year since Chavez was re-elected president with 63% of the vote.
The chavistas brought 3 million fewer voters to the polls, however"with the highest abstention of any election (except for the one for the National Assembly which the opposition boycotted).
I THINK"and of course I could be completely wrong"that the 3 million fewer votes had to do with two things: the manipulation of fear (including the violence in the run up to the voting) and the short time given for discussion and debate in a REAL sense.
On the plus side, as has already been mentioned ad infinitum, yesterday’s referendum demonstrates that democracy is more than alive and well in the Venezuela of president Chavez"something that cannot be said here in Mexico after last year’s fraudulent election that included a Dirty War in its run up"nor in the US, where folks’ votes are not even counted if they are demographically risky"and in many cases, the demographically risky are simply not allowed to vote.
Those who see the referendum results as a setback for Chavez would be well-advised to analyse the situation.
Chavez has a history of making great lemonade when life hands him lemons"as evidenced by his being elected president after a failed coup attempt, his return to Miraflores after 47 hours during the coup against him in 2002, his masterful management of the sabotage against the petroleum industry in Dec. 2002-Jan. 2003"which did close to 20 billion dollars’ damage and from which the Venezuelan economy bounced back to the tune of a major boom which continues to this moment.
I am sure he was feeling a little down when the CNE announced the results, as he is very high on the feeling scale, but he is also one of the most intelligent leaders on the planet: It didn’t take him long to re-establish his serenity and get moving forward.
If there were more leaders like Chavez, the planet would not be in the disastrous state it’s in"and our species would not be facing a much-merited extinction."
(Posted on commondreams)
335 - moonraven
Just one PS from the Beautiful Bird:
The runup in the US press before yesterday was ALL about how there was going to be fraud in the referendum because Chavez was a dictator and everything was fixed.
Not a peep yesterday: All the US press indicated that the results were 100% clean.
It's the same CNE, the same process, machines, etc. The difference: THEIR horse squeaked across the line in a photo finish.
Hypocrisy, as usual.
If the Sí vote had squeaked across, the US government and its servile press would have cried: Masive fraud, dictator, kill Chavez, the whole 9 yards.
336 - brian
Youre back Moonraven
337 - brian
Was the referendum defeated? If 46 % of the voters didnt turn up to vote, because they only vote in elections on Chavez, then the Opps didnt win, except by default. And strategic terrroism.
338 - brian
Franco: 'First of all brain, you sound more like Castro then anyone else.'
Franco: Fact: If what you and Castro say is true about Chavez.....a President that respects and governs for the majority of the Venezuelans and President Chavez accepted his defeat.......then Chavez would not have also said in the same concession speech (the half you left out)...... "the reform plan is not dead, I do not withdraw one comma of this proposal. This proposal is still alive."'
Yes it is...as you may have noticed, 49.4% of voters voted in its favour.And 46 % of voters did not vote..ergo, it is not dead.
Franco: 'If Chavezs own words of prophesy are not enough of a warning to you, Mario Isea, Chavez congressional leader of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Chavezs congressional bloc that controls congress) said following the NO vote victory......."Chavez allies in congress have not given up on making them a reality through the legislature".'
Good
Badaul..who got to him!
339 - brian
silver surfer...aka SS: 'Does Brian actually read what people post??'
yes he does. Do people believe what they actually post? Would they say the same thing under oath? Would you?
340 - brian
Unlike the Oilygarchs, Chavez is honest:
Chavez: "I will not eliminate a single comma from the Constitutional proposal!"
Prensa Latina: The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela will continue strengthening, President Hugo Chavez affirmed after recognizing the results of a referendum that rejected his proposed constitutional reform.
According to Chavez, the project was defeated because about three million of his habitual followers abstained, and recalled that only inexperienced recruits believe the cause is lost when faced with the first obstacle.
Though there are still many votes to be counted, the president of the National Electoral Council, Tibisay Lucena, said there is a clear tendency towards the NO.
Chavez, who entered national politics when leading a failed civic-military uprising in 1992, recalled that many defeats later turned into political triumphs.
In an address to the country very early Monday, shortly after the first official report on the referendum was released, the President indicated democracy will keep bringing the historic project started in 1999 to fruition.
Chavez also congratulated the adversaries for their victory, and clarified it is a long battle for socialism, in the framework of the current Constitution.
"I will not eliminate a single comma from the proposal," he stressed.
The Venezuelan leader went on by recalling Simon Bolivar's remarks if the majority does not accept it, I will delegate it to posterity but, not to 100-year posterity, he noted, and affirmed he will keep fostering the changes in compliance with Constitution. '
341 - brian
'However, Mr. Chavez does deserve points for abiding by the will of the people--this time'
46 % of the people didnt vote..had they, would you be saying the same thing? I doubt it.
342 - Clavos
"Doubt" all you want, brian.
The FACT is...they didn't.
343 - Franco
#338 "brian
Yes it is...as you may have noticed, 49.4% of voters voted in its favour.And 46 % of voters did not vote..ergo, it is not dead.
It is not clear what point you are trying to make here. Would you please elaborate.
344 - REMF
Oh look. Clavos and Franco agree with Nalle. How novel.
345 - Franco
nevermind brian, I got it from your post #341
346 - Franco
#338 " brian
......."Chavez allies in congress have not given up on making them a reality through the legislature".'
Good
OK, you do understand don't you that I made clear in my post, just as General Raul Baduel did when he stated.......be on alert to the possibility of Chavez imposing these changes in an unconstitutional and undemocratic way.......that going through the legislature denies the people any more choice, it’s not a vote by the people, it is enacted by the legisalture, meaning their is no democracy in the process.
Is this what you are saying “Good” to?
347 - brian
Franco: 'It is not clear what point you are trying to make here. Would you please elaborate.'
Had they all voted, the results would have favoured Chavez.
348 - brian
Franco: 'be on alert to the possibility of Chavez imposing these changes in an unconstitutional and undemocratic way.......'
channel Badaul all you like. Badaul knows full well Chavez has never behaved unconstitutionally. But the oligarchs that you seem to be supporting have...
This is one more of the man you lies you invent. Show me one eg where Chavez has behaved in 'an unconstitutional and undemocratic way', while hes been in office.
349 - brian
Badaul uses the word : 'possibility'....has he any experience of Chavez acting in such a way to make that a likelihood? Perhaps Badaul is unaware of the actual behaviour of his new buddies. Here is a sample:
'The most scandalous was an anonymous two-page spread in the country's
largest circulation newspaper, Últimas Noticias, which claimed about the
Constitutional Reform:
"If you are a Mother, YOU LOSE! Because you will lose your house, your
family and your children (children will belong to the state)."
The illegal ad, which was caught and suspended by the Venezuelan
National Electoral Council (CNE) after a few days in the press, has received
relatively high-profile attention in the Venezuelan press, and even
Chavez joked about it last Friday on the nightly pro-Chavez talk show, La
Hojilla. What appears to have gone completely ignored, however, is the
fact that the ad itself was placed by an organization which has at its
core, dozens of subsidiaries of the largest
US corporations working in Venezuela.
etc
U.S. Companies Behind Anti-Reform Propaganda in Venezuela
350 - brian
Franco: 'Now with all due respect for all the facts brian, which is it? '
since when have you respected ALL the facts? Like the concerted efforts to terrorise venezuelans into voting against the reforms...see my previous post.
351 - brian
Irony: Oligarchs embrace 1999 constitution...
'While many in the progressive community have been trying to argue that democracy is in fact alive and well in Venezuela for so long now, it has been a difficult argument to maintain with Chavez always on the winning side. Certainly, Chavez's concession of the vote and his request that those in favor of the SI recognize the results serves to delegitimize those that continue to call Chavez an "aspiring tyrant" as Donald Rumsfeld did in his editorial released yesterday entitled
"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez"
The opposition response has been jubilant. The irony is thick considering what a response from the opposition might have looked like if the results were switched. There were reports that opposition groups were already found to be printing shirts reading "Fraud". Something that has been particularly interesting in the last few months has been to see the way the opposition has come to embrace the 1999 constitution as their own, adding to the irony, since many of these same people were vehemently opposed to the that constitution's passing. '
I Thought Dictators Couldn't Lose Elections!
352 - Franco
#347 " brian
Had they all voted, the results would have favored Chavez.
So in making that point, is that to say that if Chavez and the legislator change the constitution, it’s legal because had all the people voted, it would have been changed anyway?
353 - Lapdog
Lowdown Dirty Liar Dubya Bush and his Gang of Murdering Thugs are making headlines again today.
But here's my question: Does anyone have an accurate account of the number of mainstream news providers, in Venezuela and elsewhere, that broadcast either anti-Chavez or pro-Chavez messages to the Venezuelan people, in the weeks leading up to the vote on December 2nd?
BTW, the first headline I saw today in the MSM was Bush the Lying Puke telling "Iran to come clean".
354 - Franco
#348 "brian
Badaul knows full well Chavez has never behaved unconstitutionally. But the oligarchs that you seem to be supporting have...This is one more of the man you lies you invent. Show me one eg where Chavez has behaved in 'an unconstitutional and undemocratic way', while hes been in office.
Well brain, besides that statement being a complete and utter mixed bag of denial, unsubstantiated suppositions, and ad hominem attacks, there is one thing you now inscribe that is decidedly a new low yourself by calling both General Raul Baduel is a lair and I am too for posting is words on this thread. It would have been better had you just stated that we pick up a weapon and you’d see us in the bush.
In calling General Raul Baduel and me repetitive and inventive lairs to make a rebuttle, when you offer no basis of fact, no logical arguments, you have not only showed yourself to be a liar, but a coward as well.
Your refuses to believe facts and instead choosing to hide behind fallacious un-realities created to fit your political agendas is not only self delusion, it's dangerous. History has proven this kind of unchecked fiction eats away at democracy. Are you now going to call history a lair too?
You have gone off track some where and think Baduel has lost sight of the heart of the Bolivian Revolution that he has shared with Chavez for 25 years now. But you have no proof to offer in support of your thinking. Your only argument boils down to nothing more then disagreeing with anyone who questions or disagrees with Chavez. These are exactly the psychiatric defined caricature traits exhibited by people who blindly submit faithfully to oculists.
Baduel is the most dedicated supporter of the Bolivian Revolution today just like he was when he and Chavez sore an oath to it in 1983. Should you choose to study his history with Chavez, you will be presented with evidences that it is Chavez, not Baduel who is the traitor to that oath and the Venezuelan people. But those facts are apparently too detestable for you to contemplate. When was it that you became too afraid to think for yourself brian?
For the record, I defy anyone on BC to dispute the following facts.
1. General Raul Baduel is a champion of the Bolivian Revolution at its very heart, and its truth as laid out in both 1983 and the 1999 Contitution which both Chavez and Baduel swore oaths to server and uphold.
2. It was in fact Chavez, not Baduel who chose to abandon their oath together to serve and defend this 1983 vision and the 1999 constitution that Chavez had his hands in writing and Baduel supported.
3. It is in fact Chavez, not Baduel who is the traitor to their shared common 25 year long cause together in this revolution by abandoning his presidencal oath to server and protect the 1999 contitution.
4. It was in fact Baduel who defended this constitution in 2002 that made it possible for Chavez to return to power through this Constitution during that 2002 coup.
5. It is a fact Baduel stands today as the true defender to the heart of the revolution for all of Venezuela that has vision of all of the people, and not to polarize the people against each other.
6. It is a fact that Chavez made the following statement after General Raul Baduel helped him regain the full power of the presidency following that 2002 coup.
7. A chastised Chavez gave an early morning speech, thanking his supporters and said “I pledge to change, to really change after this experience. I promised to govern inclusively, to bring critics on board.
8. It is Chavez, not Baduel who has gone back on this pledge and promise to govern inclusively by his intention to rewrite the 1999 Constitution.
Now you can chose to hang on to denial on what ever you want about the above facts, but they are documented and easily confirmed.
And another fact you cant escape is that your above statement has failed entirely in your efforts to spin them away.
You continue to do your part in the progressive left to prove their inability to enter the arena of ideas of discussion/debate and win, so you/they have to discredit us, shut us up, use ad hominem attacks, and resort to lies.
It has been said that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. You are more then just simple evidence attesting to this truth.
I will say it again. General Raul Baduel stands as a champion of both the Bolivian Revolution and the Venezuelan people when he supports both the 1999 Constitution and the principals of democracy that it upholds for all Venezuelans.
Anything short of this is tyranny and you remain part of it brian.
355 - Dr Dreadful
the first headline I saw today in the MSM was Bush the Lying Puke telling "Iran to come clean".
Reading the news this morning, it does remind me rather queasily of 2003:
1. Bush claims country X is trying to make WMDs
2. Country X denies this
3. Bush continues to claim that country X is trying to make WMDs
4. Independent monitoring body finds no evidence that this is so
5. Bush tells country X to come clean and admit that they are trying to make WMDs
6. In absence of evidence that country X is trying to make WMDs, Bush makes it up
7. Bush invades country X
We are already at step 5. Brace yourselves.
356 - brian
'A chastised Chavez gave an early morning speech, thanking his supporters and said "I pledge to change, to really change after this experience. I promised to govern inclusively, to bring critics on board.'
thats a very odd 'fact' care to show me where you got it, Franco?
No government does what you say: govern inclusively? Name me a govt that does that??? there are none.
357 - brian
Moonraven posted these interesting facts on commondreams on Hugo Chavz estranged wife..i will post them here. As the Marisabel has been real pain. and its nice to know more about her.
'Marisabel Rodriguez may be a perfectly nice person"but from what this poster has seen of her she is unstable and she was really disappointed that the guy she married didn’t start right off feeding at the public trough and cutting deals with the oligarchy.
When her then-husband refused to accept the presidential salary, and created a foundation to receive it"for the purpose of university scholarships for poor young folks"she had a rude awakening.
She apparently wanted a burocrat who took weekends off and flew her off to exotic spots on vacations on the taxpayer’s Bolivar.
She was conflictive as hell, and at the point of the divorce became actively involved in a religious sect and ran around speaking in tongues (sounds like the religious right is also making inroads in Venezuela"and not just the Catholic religious right).'
358 - USpace
Great post! It will take quite a while to turn Venezuela into a Cuba, but as long as communists run the country it will just get worse and worse. Chavez is determined.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe thinks
let’s PLAY communism
pretend to fix the world
by destroying it
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
long to taste communism
but be a party leader
or join the wretched masses
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
demand should exceed supply
but don’t let prices rise
shortages are much better
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe thinks
communism is GREAT
excellent way to destroy
countries for generations
.
359 - brian
That was one absurd post , Uspace.....so long as the US funds the old greedy and violent power elite, so long can venezuelans expect trouble.
360 - Dave Nalle
Seems to me that pointing out the fraud even when they won the election shows integrity and a concern for the legitimacy of Venezuelan elections which is truly praiseworthy.
Dave
361 - brian
'Seems to me that pointing out the fraud even when they won the election shows integrity and a concern for the legitimacy of Venezuelan elections which is truly praiseworthy'
not so...not when there was no fraud.Integrity is not something the oligarchs and their ilk have ever shown. Cast your tiny mind back to april 2002.
362 - brian
More on the voting:
'The final results of the vote on Venezuela's Constitutional Reforms are coming in at this moment.
The results of the vote upon which President Chávez conceded at 1:20 AM, Venezuelan time on 3 December, were based upon 87.4% of the votes reported from the automated voting system. However, there were outlying areas where voting took place manually. These took place primarily in the states of Amazonas and Delta Amacouro. Where automated voting took place in these two states, the people voted overwhelmingly for the Constitutional Reforms. However, the votes that were received from the manual system in these two states had not yet been counted.'
...
'The "SI!" vote carried 15 of Venezuela's 24 states. The primary losses and abstention were seen in areas with the highest population density.
'
which is as expected...
363 - Clavos
A new opinion piece in The Economist, published on December 6th titled The beginning of the end for Hugo Chávez, begins with this very amusing observation:
"AT HIS final rally before a referendum on constitutional reform on December 2nd, President Hugo Chávez warned tens of thousands of his red-shirted supporters, many of them bused in from across the country to fill Caracas's Avenida Bolívar, that voting yes to the reform was a vote for him whereas a no vote would be “a vote for George W. Bush”. So one reading of the referendum's result is that in nine years in power it has been Mr Chávez's signal achievement to turn Venezuela into the only place on the planet nowadays where the American president could win a popular vote."
Beyond the humor, the author makes a compelling case for his/her point that Chavez's defeat at the polls marks the beginning of the end for his "Bolivarian Revolution;" not only in Venezuela, but on the rest of the continent as well.
Among other comments, the author notes that the economy, touted as healthy because of its growth rate in recent years, has in reality been managed with "incompetence," and with "recklessly expansionary policies," factors which have been evident to even the most casual student of economics for some time now.
364 - brian
Thats amusing, except the vote was NOT for Bush, rhetoric aside. NOW had they a vote on whose best: Bush or Chavez, even those who voted would either abstain or vote Chavez.
All the Economist has shown is its own bias, and so the doubtfullness of its opinions.
365 - brian
Reports of the Bolivarian revolutions demise are greatly exaggerated...
And as you admit, the Economist desires the removal o of Chavez...that only proves they are not an independent media...and so cant be trusted.
366 - Clavos
"All the Economist has shown is its own bias, and so the doubtfullness of its opinions...
...that only proves they are not an independent media...and so cant be trusted."
Exactly like venezulanalysis, commondreams, and other partisan sites which also are not independent media and which labor mightily to keep Chavez in power; in fact, this is true of virtually all the sites which have been linked on these threads by those who support Chavez.
367 - Franco
All the Economist has shown is its own bias, and so the doubtfullness of its opinions.
Ya Clavos, can't you get it though your thich skull that it is only brians biased sites that are doubtless. How may times does he need to keep reminding you of this.
368 - Clavos
I'm not only thick-skulled, Franco, I'm stubborn too.
369 - brian
'Exactly like venezulanalysis, commondreams, and other partisan sites which also are not independent media and which labor mightily to keep Chavez in power; in fact, this is true of virtually all the sites which have been linked on these threads by those who support Chavez.'
The difference is what they publish is true and verifiable. Youve not offered any evidene to show their reports are false...Thats the issue....
370 - Clavos
"The difference is what they publish is true and verifiable"
As are reports in respected journals like The Economist.
371 - Lapdog
It's business as usual for Chavez and friends.
"Hugo Chávez and leaders of six other South American nations launched a regional development bank that they tout as the continent's answer to United States-influenced international lenders".
Read about it here
372 - brian
Clavos: 'As are reports in respected journals like The Economist.'
respected by whom? And on Chavez....
According to Davem, the Economist wrote that chavistas shot at antichavistas...something not even the BBC was prepared to write. But, well, here is the far right Economist:
Economist
With its caption to a picture meant to tell us that the chavistas are murderous thugs...Is that journalism? No, id call it black propaganda...
So if thats what it takes to be 'respected' the respect is not a desirable goal.