First Lt. Ehren Watada has defied the Army, won't serve in Iraq - faces court martial.
When First Lt. Ehren Watada refused to be deployed in Iraq, he probably didn’t have Victorian poet Alfred Tennyson in mind. “Theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die,” wrote Tennyson in describing the ill-fated British Charge of the Light Brigade. Watada did choose to reason why, because he views the war as illegal. His offer to resign, or fight in Afghanistan, couldn’t placate an Army determined to make an example…
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26 - Nancy
Clavos #9: so what Calley was really convicted of was lying, claiming he was given an order he wasn't?
27 - Arch Conservative
While several of the more reasonable individuals who have posted on this thread have pointed out that "war on terror" may be a poor choice of words....Ms. moonraven isn't making a semantic distinction when she says there's no war on terror.
She is saying that there is no threat posed by radical fundamentalist islam and that America is the problem.
She's your typical leftist anti American [Edited]
28 - Nancy
No, Arch: MR is way waaaaay left. She's not the typical US liberal at all, as she herself has pointed out on aother thread. Even I'm way left of typical Lefties on SOME issues, altho I'm far right on others. I dunno - who on here considers themselves to be "typical" i.e. moderate liberals?
29 - Clavos
Nancy #26:
No, Calley was convicted on three counts of premeditated murder and one count of assault with intent to kill.
My point was he lied (or so a jury found, by acquitting Medina)) about having received orders for the My Lai incident.
And I believe he didn't do it under orders.
I don't condone what Calley and his soldiers did, but I think I understand why it happened.
30 - Nancy
Waitaminnit - now I'm even more confused. So, Calley claimed he got orders to off My Lai, but he in fact hadn't, & did it on his own? Wasn't he under orders to take out the Enemy? Which leads me to: how the hell can you commit murder during a war - especially when the enemy is prone to stuff like wiring their own kids w/explosives, etc.? That's insane. You're either there to kill or you're not.
31 - Emry
S.T.M #24 - "...while it might also have had an Empire, Britain at the time of Lord Tennyson's writing had long been a parliamentary democracy and a vibrant and vigorous one at that - and one that believed above all else in certain inalienable rights and personal freedoms (sound familiar?)."
Are you by any chance a "chauvinist pig", S.T.M?
How can you have vibrant and vigorous democracy if women aren't allowed to vote?
32 - Clavos
But the people Calley was convicted of killing were judged to be innocent civilians, not enemy.
He had no orders to kill innocent civilians.
The question mark that will never be fully resolved in some people's minds is whether or not those people were, in fact, innocent, since they were harboring combatants. The trial decided that they were innocent.
Discerning who was "innocent" and who was enemy was one of the most difficult aspects of that war, believe me. Most times when we had to, American lives hung in the balance, and the decision had to be made instantly.
The trial determined, however that Calley and his men were not in exactly that "instant" kind of situation; hence the "premeditated" aspect of his convictions.
33 - Mark
I see today they declared a mistrial on this case. The judge is afraid to put the legality of the Iraq war on trial. Wonder why? Could it be if the war is found illegal it could open a pandoras box for Bush, the administration and company? From my ignorant understanding of military, I see military tribunals, judges, court martials and everything as very biased. Watada doesn't have a chance but I am sure he realized that and knew the consequences of disobedience and probably is prepared for whatever they dole out. Usually, people that engage in civil disobedience have thought through the consequences and have arrived at some place in their mind that is willing to suffer those consequences to stand up for what they believe. Go Watada you have my support
34 - Nancy
Moi aussi.
35 - moonraven
Arch: You believe no doubt in the Tooth Fairy, too.
Too bad there's no quarter under your pillow this time.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the US citizen. That's why the US government routinely makes suckers out of jokers like you.
Whether I am the most leftist and most un-estadudinese on this board--or on the planet--has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
The military is a screwball organization. Example: I spent 11 days at Fort McClellan as an E5 in the CASP program--in order to get a story that Mike Wallace DIDN?T get for 60 Minutes.
The program was a complete crock. When I publically said I would have no part of it, they offered to make me a MAJOR! I filed a statement of conscientious objection to the program and to war. They flew me back to Seattle (where I arrived in time to speak at Amnesty Day) and gave me an honorable discharge--which hung in the place of honor--over the toilet--for a number of years.
36 - moonraven
sorry, anti-estadunidense. Dark in here--and I am not a touch typist.
37 - STM
Emry asked: "Are you by any chance a "chauvinist pig", S.T.M?"
Probably, but then I'm a boor ... also, where DID women have the vote at the time? The country I live in was one of the first in the world to give women the vote, and it wasn't that long after the Crimean war.
It's all relative Emma-ry, and timelines are important; what seemed right then obviously isn't today, but just having a vibrant democracy in the first place was the thing that paved the way for women's suffrage.
38 - Clavos
but just having a vibrant democracy in the first place was the thing that paved the way for women's suffrage.
True.
Totalitarian societies tend to take away, not give voters power to vote.
39 - STM
Evenin' Clav, how are you old mate? ... just another little smack on the hand from Emma-ry.
I think she's right though about my male chauvinism though and it's something I really need to address with every fibre of my being ... example: here I am, yahooing and carrying on and watching a fu.king great rugby match involving my team in Durban when I really should have been out and about in the p.ssing rain on my Saturday morning off collecting money for the nursing mothers' association or findacureforvaginalthrush.org. Honestly, sometimes I just don't know how I can live with myself. I can't stand unreconstructed males and neither can the rest of the pub.
Speaking of which, Dave's been copping it over his Vox Populi debacle, eh?. Lol. Tee hee. Do squirm and wriggle (as in out of) mean the same thing in Nalle's lexicon, do you think??
40 - STM
Nancy wrote: "Moi aussi."
Moi too!
41 - Clavos
Hi, mate.
You mean to say you're not a feminist?
My wife, with supreme irony, often accuses me of being a "SNAG", a Sensitive, New Age Guy.
She's a great gal, though, so I don't take offense.
Yep, ol' Dave's somewhat beleaguered these days. I've pretty much stayed out of the fray; I get accused enough as it is of being his "lap dog" and worse.
42 - STM
My wife's response to the meterosexual/SNAG/I'm a male feminist debate: just men, trying another sneaky ruse to con their way into your pants. "Oh, yes ... most men ARE neanderthals ... I really understand where you're coming from. Now, how about another vodka?"
I used to sit next to a bloke at work who liked to tell everyone he was a feminist. What a wanker. His other main claim to fame was that he and a whole lot of other basket-weaving idiots used to strip down, paint themselves up and run around a park with spears while making grunting-type noises to get in touch with their "male warrior side". I asked him why he didn't just play footy or go to the pub like every other bastard. Cutting down on lentils and mung beans and eating a rare steak every now and then probably would have helped too. But fair dinkum, how the hell can a bloke be a feminist?
You can only believe in the concept of feminism if you're a man. It's like white people who aren't of aboriginal descent saying they know how tough it is to be black. They can't know ...
43 - Clavos
So, you've got those weirdos over there too, huh?
Nothing like a good fishing trip with your mates and a coolerful of beer for getting "in touch with your male" whatever.
I really can't see these guys; what's more I don't think most women do, either. At least, not the women I know, who are a mix of my mate's wives and women I know from work, as well as some of my wife's friends.
All of 'em great people, and not a one interested in the metrosexual type guys.
But I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...
44 - Emry
S.T.M
"Probably"?? Not sure are we, cobber?
BTW, you were droning on and on and on about Britain not OZ.
Up your timelines and groaner excuses with a sharp stick, you tosser.
Whichever way you try to spin it this is half-assed pap:
"Oops, little mistake there Darrell, and one that I do love to correct ... while it might also have had an Empire, Britain at the time of Lord Tennyson's writing had long been a parliamentary democracy and a vibrant and vigorous one at that - and one that believed above all else in certain inalienable rights and personal freedoms (sound familiar?)."
Flush your sloppy drivel down the crapper. There were/are certain rights and freedoms for certain people, lesser rights and freedoms for the common bloke and blokette and much, much lesser, or no rights for the blacks, browns and reds.
Loved setting you straight.
45 - STM
Fantastic Emma-ry ... for once, one of your standard vitriolic personal attacks that actually runs to more than two lines. You go girl.
46 - Emry
Stick with "Oops", STuMpy, the rest was ZZZZZZZZZZ.
47 - STM
Anything that would make you go to sleep and disappear would be a fu.king bonus. I'll keep trying.