Well, if we did not already have enough reasons to declare Iran to be a member of the "axis of evil" we now have two more:
Well, if we did not already have enough reasons to declare Iran to be a member of the "axis of evil" we now have two more:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
126 - Cyrus the Great
Defender,
This is from debka, Jan 4th, 07:
The USS John C. Stennis strike group will this month join the USS Dwight Eisenhower aircraft carrier group and USS Boxer strike force in the Persian Gulf “as a warning to Syria and Iran” in face of acts seen as provocative, and to give commanders more flexibility in the region. Deployment of the Stennis group puts a total of 16,000 US sailors in the region as well as another nuclear carrier and 7 escort warships, 10 air squadrons, 2 submarines and helicopters to support amphibious landings on enemy soil.
It seems you read as fast as you type!
127 - Bird of Paradise
Defender, I'm not sure what questions you have asked that I have not responded to? You have said,
" . . . bird of paradise, you are wrong at some points,iran would never make any nuclear weapons and even if they do i'm positive the government of iran would not take advantage of them even if in war."
In the very post you are respondiing to (#121) I laid out a clear and reasonable explanation for my opinion.
You, however, only make a completely unsupported assertion that flies in the face of public reality when you say, "Iran would never make any nuclear weapons."
Perhaps it is you who should be responding to my question about how Ahmadinajad can be "reliable" and "delusional" at the same time?
128 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Shavua Tov,
Before I continue saying anything, I wish to clarify with some definitions, all of which are badly needed. I'm posting this so that all of you who write here understand very clearly just where it is I'm coming from.
1. Zionist movement: a largely secular movement to bring Jews home to the land of Israel.
2. State of Israel: the political expression of the Zionist movement.
3. Children of Israel: the descendants of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of TeraH, a high priest in Sumer, in the city of Ur, who left when the king he served died.
4. People of Israel: the descendants of the sons of Israel, who were divided into a number of tribes.
5. Kingdom of Israel: This has two definitions.
a) the Kingdom of Saul, David and Solomon which extended as far as the Euphrates River at the height of its power.
b) the secessionist kingdom of ten tribes that separated from the tribes of Judah and Shim'on after the death of Solomon and accession to the throne of his son ReHavám. With time, this kingdom weakened and the territory of the tribe of Benyamin became part of the southern kingdom of Yehudá (Judah).
6. Jews: Originally, the descendants (tribe) of Yehudá, one of the sons of Israel. With time, the tribe of Shim'on merged into the tribe of Yehudá, and with time, the tribe of Benyamín merged as well. At the time of its fall, the Kingdom of Yehudá represented the tribes of Yehudá, Shim'on, Benyamin and those people of the tribe of Leví who lived within the borders of the kingdom. The descendants of these people are the Jews mentioned in definition #1.
7. Israeli: This has two definitions.
a) one who lives within the State of Israel, and who is subject to its jurisdiction.
b) an artificial cultural construct, a creation of the Zionist movement, an attempt to create a new Jew, one uninfluenced by the rabbis and the decadent culture of Eastern Europe.
8. Palestine: This has three definitions.
a) The territory of the Land of Israel under the name given it by the Romans in 100 CE or so, Syria Palestina. This name was given the territory to insult the Jewish inhabitants of the country, as the name Palestine recalls the name Philistine, an Aegean people that fled to this country, settling in the vicinity of what is now Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Gath.
b) the territory covering both sides of the Jordan River granted to the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with the states purpose of creating within it a "Jewish national homeland."
c) the political construct of Arab terrorist organizations who wish to end the State of Israel, and to end the Jewish presence in this region.
9. Palestinian: This has two definitions.
a) resident of the territory of Mandate Palestine, an individual under its legal jurisdiction. Under international law, the successor state to the Palestine Mandate is the State of Israel.
b) an artificial cultural construct of the terrorist movements representing the Arab refugees who left the Palestine Mandate during the war that broke out in 1947-49. A great deal of "academic" work was done by the Husseini family to construct a history for this non-existent nationality.
Now.
I am a Jew. I am a citizen of the State of Israel, and therefore an Israeli under definition 7a above. But when I express my own opinions, I am not talking as an Israeli, under the artificial construct of 7b) above. I speak as a Jew, and as a member of one of the tribes of Israel.
As for me, I believe that the State of Israel is collapsing of its own corruption and lack of purpose, as it has already served its purpose. But it will be replaced, not by a "Palestine," but by a Jewish entity far different from what we have seen, and one that is able to cope with the coming reunification of Yehudá (the Jews) with the brother tribes that appeared lost to history. Nothing is lost under the sight of G-d. I refer you all to the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37.
In my next comment, I will attempt to answer what you've asked me since Friday afternoon. I don't generally use the computer on the Jewish Sabbath, and did not read your questions until now.
129 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Defender,
"I'm still not informed why Avigdor Lieberman, Israeli minister of strategic affairs, keeps calling on U.N. and the Security Council for a military action against Iran and he highly recommends and the letter that he recently sent to U.N. to impose harshest and the most extensive sanctions against Iran the world has ever seen in order to suspend Iran's uranium enrichment."
I suppose this is directed at me. That's a good question. Essentially, the answer is that he can do no more than write letters. The government of the State of Israel is like a eunuch when it comes to foreign and military affairs, unwilling to defend its own people, or act on behalf of fulfilling Jewish destiny or the destiny of the People of Israel. If you look carefully at my previous comment, #128, you will see that the People of Israel is an entity quite different than the State of Israel, and that Jews are merely a part of the People of Israel. When I write, I write as a Jew looking to see the fulfillment of the national destiny of the People of Israel.
The State of Israel, to which Avigdor Lieberman has wedded his own future, is something which is on its way out, and which has no future. And neither does Lieberman, nor the man who thinks he is Lieberman's boss, Ehud Olmert. This is the reason why Avigdor Lieberman, who has an empty title in an empty government, writes letters to the U.N.
A Jewish government, one dedicated to the future of the Jewish People and to the future of the entire People of Israel, would have bombed out Bushehr and destroyed it a couple of years ago, long before the Russians had reached the stage they have reached in its construction. Such a government would have encouraged regime change in Teheran, to get rid of these fools who are ruining your country. If this succeeded, they then would have come forth with a plan to see to it that nobody in Teheran has to freeze in the winter or shvitz in the summer due to lack of electricity. That is what a Jewish government would do. In the end, Teheranis, not to mention everybody else in the mountains of your country, would benefit. In addition to all of this, you would be dealing with a true ally rather than an enemy or an imperialist power seeking to ruin your futures.
But this "Israeli" government of eunuchs? Given that they have no balls, they write letters asking "great" powers (like America, a country on the verge of bankruptcy and economic collapse) to bail them out of the threats they perceive. And as you see, ships from America afflict Assyria and the "other bank," Iran. Check out my article on the Imminence of War to find out what that means.
I hope this answers your question, defender.
130 - Cyrus the Great
Ruvy,
Comment #128 was interesting although very berief. I read article "immenence of war" with interest. I beleive Iran's manouver was beyond expectation of her enemies. So, attack has been postponed. American fleet in Persian gulf will be damaged badly in any confilict with Iran. Contrary to your beleive and many other observers, immediate target of Iranian missiles and possibly airforce (if anything survive the dog fights) will be aircraft carriers and bases that jet fighters jump form them. Not Israel or oil tankers. This may extend as far as island of Diego Garica. It will be such a disaster, that everyone will forget about Pearl harbour alltogether. Iran will try to destroy bases of US air force, so decrease the chance of 2nd,3rd,..... waves of attacks. Iran's army may try to cut supply lines of US troops in Iraq and then try to take them in surprise. All of above and more will give enough excuse to nuke Iran. Thousands of deaths in few hours and life of hunderds of thousands in danger will give Bush administration justification to use nuc weapons against Iran. God help all of us.
131 - Bird of Paradise
Cyrus, Several months ago there were two (actually almost three) US Carrier fleets in the Persian Gulf region. It seems that there has been some shuffling of the naval presence.
In any case, what you speculate on in your comment is quite possible IF Iran has the resources to launch such an abitious military attack on US forces. I highly doubt that they have the capacity to do the sort of damage that you are describing.
Even so, I cannot imagine even the most rabid official in the US military, State Department, Department of Defense or the White House would see any value in precipitating the sort of death and destruction that you suggest.
While I do not personally advocate a military assault on Iran (my article says, "Sanctions") I do not imagine the United States doing more than a seizure of Gulf oil platforms and the bombing of selected military targets (radar sights and air bases) and a "surgical" strike against one or more of the nuclear production sites . . . not designed to destroy the nuclear program but to set it back another five years or so to buy time.
None of these attacks would be likely to effect very many civilian Iranis.
The only way that there could be the level of death and destruction that you envision would be if Iran responded with a nuclear attack on Israel or the American military forces.
This would, of course, be suicidal for Iran.
The other scenario would be a massive Irani military assault against Iraq. This would also be suicidal and would most certainly lead to the quick demise of the present Iranian government (but not necessarily the mullahs' hold a power).
The most likely Iranian response would be the deployment of the tens of thousands of trained terrorists and suicide bombers that they have recruited over the past decade.
This would be deadly and destablizing but hardly decisive . . .
Personally, I do not wish any military confrontation with Iran of any kind. But as long as Iran keeps its hands in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq, and continues to pursue nuclear weapons, the likelihood of some military action will continue to grow.
132 - ERIC th wise
good comments defender and cyrus and bird.
and ruvy,
133 - defender
cyrus on comment # 126,
according to your sources, somebody has been lying lately( the news press conference) because i read the article in cnn.com four weeks ago and realized that the the u.s. jet fighters have stopped penerating the airspace of bushehr, it's hard to blieve it because if they are penerating the air space everyday, iran's administration would have strongly reacted and responded to their acts. so send me article at farhad_raoufi39 at yahoo.com i would be delighted to take a look at it and find out more.
bird of paradise, I personaly do not blieve that ahmadinejad is delusional, It's more of overdramatic sometimes and my question was not how ahmadinejad can be reliable and delusional at the same time either. my question to you and ruvy was " haven't russia and china supported iran's right of nuclear production? or have you forgotten for some reasons that russia and china, are too members of the security council?"
(comment # 119), i advise you to read comment # 119 and 122 carefully again. i will only take three minutes or less. ruvy of the jerusalem, i read comment 128 and 129, what you said on comment 129 about both countries cooperating together was amazing but also impossible to happen, deep down i really wish that takes place one day but from what i've seen of israel untill now is just declaring war and shedding more blood. i don't personaly have anything against the people of israel nor i will ever have, not even the soldiers and the fighters, they're just obeying their commanders, i don't think israel should be wiped off the map like the ahmadinejad had said( and idon't think he meant the exact same thing of what he said too), my problem is with the government of israel, israel is infected from the inside, it all effects the world from the root,Moshe Katzav and avigdor liberman and omelet should be replaced by democratics so as the bush being replaced by john kerry. as long as those four people are in power nor iran and nor israel will see that day and the world will not see the face of peace.
134 - Cyrus the Great
Bop,
)
)
)
Look below, this is part of article written by Mark Gaffney:
What US Forces Could Face in the Gulf
Today the Russian army is a shadow of its former glory and the Russian navy rusts in port. Nonetheless, Moscow remains the leader in several key areas of military hardware, including the important field of cruise anti-ship missile technology. Although Russian anti-ship missiles have never been used in combat, they are so formidable they have already altered the balance of naval power. The Russian Sunburn missile, for example, has been called "the most lethal anti-ship weapon in the world." It flies at mach-2, can hit a squirrel in the eye, and has a range of 130+ miles. (see
The newer Yakhonts missile is even more capable. It flies at mach-2.5, is just as accurate, and has a range of 185 miles. (see
Assuming the Iranians have acquired these weapons, there will be no place of safety in the entire Persian Gulf in the event of war. Every part of the Persian lake will be within range of the Iranian coast. This means that every US naval vessel on patrol in the Gulf, i.e., the entire 5th fleet, will be exposed to counterattack.
The Sunburn is a sea-skimmer. It was designed to defeat the US Navy's Aegis radar defense system by cruising just above the water, i.e., below radar. In its final approach the Sunburn also makes violent end-maneuvers to defeat close-in defenses. American sailors who are unfortunate enough to be in harm's way will probably never see these weapons coming. One Sunburn missile can sink or disable any ship in the US Navy, and the Yakhonts reportedly has been optimized for use against our large carriers. If the Iranians have these weapons in sufficient numbers they can stage a massed attack and saturate US defenses. In which case the Gulf will become a shooting gallery. Thousands of US sailors will die gruesome deaths at sea.
At the start of the 1982 Falklands war Argentina had only five French-made Exocet anti-ship missiles, yet managed to sink two British warships. With enough of them the Argentines might have sunk the entire British fleet. Yet, the Exocet is primitive by comparison to the latest Russian missiles. Has Iran acquired them? According to various reports the Iranians were in Moscow as early as 2000 shopping for Sunburns and Yakhonts, among other items. Although the details of the subsequent arms deal were never disclosed, it's a safe bet the Russians did not say "Nyet." Missile exports are a cash cow for Moscow, generating much-needed hard currency; and oil-rich Iran certainly has the cash. (source -- scroll down at
The above analysis is not just one man's opinion. In recent years a number of papers and studies have all agreed that the US Navy has only limited defenses against the latest Russian anti-ship missiles; and, according to a 2000 GAO report, which was based on the US Navy's own data, our most vulnerable vessel is the pride of the fleet, i.e., the flagship, the behemoth carriers. This is why some have described them as floating death traps and have called for their retirement. The GAO report also stressed that there will be no silver bullet. The US Navy will continue to be vulnerable for years to come. Yet, the average American remains clueless.
135 - Cyrus the Great
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SS-N-22 Sunburn Russian name
3M80/P-80Zubr,P-270 Moskit
Mission: Short to Medium Range Ship-to-Ship Missile
Development-Country-Name: Russia
Deployment-Country-Name: Russia, Ukraine, Iran, India
Development Year: early 1970s
Deployment Year: 1980
Retire Year:
(the scale shows 1 meter)
Length 9.38m
Body Diameter 76cm
Wingspan 1.3m
Launch Weight 3,950kg
Warhead Conventional HE or 200kT nuclear
Guidance Inertia with update, active/pasiveradar
Propulsion Ramjet, solid
Range 90km/120km(3M80E)
Accuracy
No. of Manufacture 600
No. of Deployment 200(1991)
Design Raduga Design Bureau
Manufacture
Copyright(c)1997 Missile.index
136 - defender
thanks cyrus the great, that was some positive and useful information. ruvy and bird of paradise please read comment 133 if you still haven't read it yet and if you have please respond.
best regards.
defender
137 - Bliffle
The USN has a long and inglorious record of strategic failure, cf., Pearl Harbor. Anyone can see that well-designed modern unmanned missiles can sink the Navy, just as in 1941 anyone could see that many squads of airplanes could sink the Navy. Didn't Billy Mitchell demonstrate that? But the Admirals can't give up the bloated ship programs that swell their egos and their wallets.
138 - Bird of Paradise
Cyrus, That article by Mark Gaffney (I looked up the original which has been reproduced all over the net . . . it seems to be the definitive article on the subject) raises very real concerns. Even so, there has been some progress in neutralizing them. Read and note that the article was written over two years ago.
The democratic underground also has some interesting discussion on this very subject taking place this week. Some of the commentors suggest various ways to avoid the sunburn threat.
In any case, I can't imagine that our defenses are LESS than they were two+ years ago. Technology is not as low as it used to be and we have been working on a response to the Sunburn and its predecessor for over 20 years now.
At the very least, if it cannot be defended against directly then there will be ways to simply avoid it . . . by staying far away from it.
139 - Bird of Paradise
I tried to include a link to an article in freerepublic (with a counter to the sunburn threat) in my last comment but it seems to draw a "banned word" response. I have tried again but something in it still seems to be banned. Strange . . .
140 - Cyrus the Great
"In any case, I can't imagine that our defenses are LESS than they were two+ years ago. Technology is not as low as it used to be"
Bop,
U r right. Iran is not sitting idle, either. Remember INF stealth warship was hit by an Iranian made antiship missle off the Lebonon coast. That warship was equipped with 2 modern anti-missle system (Although, they said they were not activated) and as I said was built with stealth technology. Iran is now producing at least one generation beyond above missile. Not to mention new acquirements from Russians.
141 - defender
bird of paradise words will not do anything unless they are taken into action. what ahmadinejad did was just theorizing an idea about wiping israel off the map but what israelies administration itself is doing is simply taking the words of ahmadinejad into action, the state of israel government attacked leobnan last summer for no reason, they are still killing women and childrens in palestine and firing up the holy places such as mosques.is that war against terrorism or do you consider that of justice? and recently avigdor liberman, foreign spokesman of israel has sent a letter to the u.n. security council and urged them to revoke iran's license, and impose harshest and the most extensivet sanction the world has ever seen in order to stop iran's uranium enrichment.
and by the way ruvy in jerusalem and bird os paradise, please read my comment number 133 if you still haven't read it and if you have, please respond to it. i wrote my reactions about what you said .
142 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Defender,
The last time the world had to seriously pay attention to anything the United Nations said was in 1950 when the Security Council voted to send military forces to Korea to counter the North Korean invasion.
Since then, everything the Security Council has done has been a joke.
If Russia and China are supporting Ahmadinejad in the UN, and they are, then they are using him as a proxy to counter American influence in Central Asia. The Americans have managed to make themselves odious to the Chinese and get themselves in debt to them all at the same time. The Russians want very much to resume their role as a world power.
So many power plays are going in addition to the power play going on by Iran versus its neighbors.
This is not an issue of whether Iran has the "right" to have nuclear plants. This is an issue of whether Iran should be frothing at the mouth about killing off the Jews (that is what this questioning the holocaust and talking about destroying Israel means) AND having the possibility to make nuclear weapons at the same time. Someone who froths at the mouth like a rabid dog about destroying a neighboring country, and who uses guerilla forces under his command (HizbAllah) to launch rocket attacks against the same country is not the kind of fellow one wishes for a neighbor with nuclear weapons.
Get rid of this idiot at the top and don't talk about war, even if your regime does not like our regime, and the trouble goes away.
Ahmadinejad is serious about his intentions. He intends to be in control of the Temple Mount, using such tools as are available to him. So he, and his backers, Russia and China are a real threat to this country.
If he is overturned, and the ability of Iran to attempt to destroy us removed, there will be no problems, even if your regime does call us the little satan every 10 days.
143 - Bird of Paradise
defender, " haven't russia and china supported iran's right of nuclear production? or have you forgotten for some reasons that russia and china, are too members of the security council?"
Yes they have and yes they are.
I hope that answers your question.
144 - defender
ruvy of the jerusalem, the rumors of iran government commanding the hezbollah is just an opinion and is not a fact, it has not proved yet, the only evidence is iran owning the same kind of rockets as the ones were fired by hezbolaah against the state of israel. we can not consider it as a proven fact,a lot of countries have the same kind and brands of weapons as the ones that were fired last summer by hezbollah of leobnan, and ahmadinejad had said that israel should be wiped off the map? have you ever asked yourself why? why he said something like that? or you just got mad swiftly that you did not manage to think about and seek the reason that he represented something like that. i know the answer, althouth it was a stupid and a sick thing to say but i he has a reason to it and i don't blame him for saying it because the reason he said that for is strong enough to blame israel to make ahmaadinejad say something like that, president ahmadinejad said that because he felt anger and you could say the government and the millitary of israel actually tempted him and the whole muslim world to do something about it and he was the first to respond. when we heard the israeli soldiers opening fire on bunch of unarmed women and children innocent civilians of the region of palestine(the occupied lands) we got mad, when we heard the attack of israeli forces to mosques , the holy place of muslims and killing all the innocent civillians of the region we got mad and i say to you ruvy, with all due respect, if that's how army and the commanders of the israel train their soldiers to kill and no mercy, no heart at all, even i say that such a country should be wiped off the map or destroyed or regime-changed and i give the president a right to say that with all of that. even if the government of iran attack israel with the biggest army the world has ever seen and invade that country, iranian soldiers have enough humanity and soul in themselves not to take the lives of the innocent. what does life of all those women and children and even infants had to do with terrorism and israel's political issues.
i didn't want to say this but from the pages of the history, now we all know that the soldiers of israel have no life, completely dark and ruthless. i fell sorry for them. ruvy now don't give me anymore of your personal aspects of life and how the israel has impacted it. i want you to answer my question if you can. but you probably just give another comment about your bliefs which has nothing to do with the subject.
145 - defender
let me get this right,so by: "the ability of Iran to attempt to destroy us removed, there will be no problems, even if your regime does call us the little satan every 10 days." are you suggesting that iran should be limited of all the lastest weapon thechnologies and nuclear systems just because your little country feel unsafe and unsecure about iran having them? what, you want me to laugh at this. don't humiliate yourself more than what you already have ruvy, israel has 200 nuclear atom bomb kelears , united kingdom(England) has only 190. so you guys get to keep your little country and it does not force us to limithe uranium enrichment because of another country's mischiefs. i advise you to read the comment 144 carefully. that explains everything.
146 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
defender,
I'll have to answer you more thoroughly when I put my cat down. He's an old fellow and needs affection now and again. It's very difficult to type with one hand and a nine kilo cat on your shoulder...
But you do deserve an answer.
147 - defender
and before you do, ruvy, remember that i still don't have anything against the people of the israel, but from your side of story you're just blaming ahmadinejad for everything and you don't even bother to mention what tempted him to say that and i feel that some things should be said. i highly recommend you to read comment # 133 all over again, it will take you just a minute, that way you can think better and realize what i truly mean and then give me a full and strong answer,
best regards
defender
148 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Defender,
Now that I've put the cat down, I can type a little better.
You wrote, "I don't personally have anything against the people of Israel nor I will ever have, not even the soldiers and the fighters, they're just obeying their commanders; I don't think Israel should be wiped off the map like the Ahmadinejad had said (and I don't think he meant the exact same thing of what he said too); my problem is with the government of Israel..."
In essence, my problem is with the government of Israel, too. When HizbAllah started shooting rockets at us last summer, the appropriate strategy would have been landings at sea from the north and west, attacking HizbAllah where they were not expecting it, and massive air strikes on the Syrian city of Al Anjar, where HizbAllah was coordinating its missile strikes.
Had I been in command of Israeli military forces, there would not have been attacks on Lebanon (except for a military offensive from the north of the territory held by HizbAllah), but rather on Syria, which was providing the route for the arms and aid to HizbAllah.
There was no reason to waste missiles on trucks carrying civilians, which is what the IDF was forced to do, given its orders from the clown Olmert, who was following HIS orders from the Americans.
Now, as for the Iranians controlling and funding HizbAllah, this is just a known fact. During the war, orders were heard given in Farsi to the HizbAllah soldiers. The only country which trains its military officers in Farsi is Iran. So the link was very clear.
After the fighting ended, Debkafile carried an article on Ahmadinejad and others in Iran being dissatisfied with Nasrallah, and restricting his role to being a
loudmoutha mouthpiece for HizbAllah. It is painfully clear that the regime in Tehran is attempting to create a replication of the Persian Empire of 1,400 years ago, where Persian soldiers were stationed on the Mediterranean.Long before this rocket assault by HizbAllah in July, Ahmadinejad talked about a world existing without Israel. One of the first articles I commented on here was about just this in November, 2005. So this is not new, and certainly not in response to an event that occurred seven months later.
Israel has had nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver fatal blows to every Arab capital, in addition to Tehran, for over thirty years. No Israeli politician has ever talked publicly about attempting to eradicate a neighboring country here. Such talk, when one has nuclear weapons, is irresponsible and dangerous, to say the least.
In fact, the policy here has been just the opposite. The government has refused to talk about its nuclear capabilities until the American secretary of state pushed the cat out of the bag in hearings before the United States senate.
But your government talks of eradicating my country through one side of its mouth, and talks about obtaining nuclear capabilities through the other. This policy may make you happy as an Iranian, but it is irresponsible and dangerous.
Given this, from my side, it is necessary to consider how to eradicate what is a mortal threat to this nation. Bear in mind that this is a small country, smaller than the plain in which Tehran itself sits. The simplest, albeit most brutal solution, is to destroy Tehran, the center of the Islamic Republic. Without a strong center, the provinces will not long remain within Iran, and the separatist opportunities in your country will be taken advantage of. The Ozeris in the north may be the first to secede from a country without a capital. Azerbaijan, after all, is an independent country.
If this sounds cold and unfeeling, bear in mind that a child in Tehran is just as innocent as a child in Tel Aviv. Neither deserve to die. Children in Isfahan are just as innocent as children in Haifa and Tzfat, but children in Haifa and Tzfat have died at the hands of HizbAllah - an Iranian puppet - while children in Isfahan have not died at the hands of Israeli forces.
YOUR LEADER ALREADY HAS JEWISH BLOOD ON HIS HANDS. You may not want me dead, but the man who is the voice of your country does. This is not acceptable to me. Period.
So, while I would like to see Olmert, Halutz, Livni, Peretz, Lieberman, Pines-Pas, Tamir and many others swing from the hangman's noose, I still must consider the threat posed by a regime that makes it clear that we Jews are to die. That is the regime that sits in Tehran.
In the final analysis, I see nothing wrong with a responsible regime possessing nuclear weapons. Th mere possession of nuclear weapons, by itself, does not create an enemy. The rulers of your country do not constitute a responsible regime.
At some point soon, the present rulers of Israel, who are mostly criminals, will have to be removed, and a responsible Jewish regime take over in their stead. At that point, you will see a very different tone from the IDF (or its successor) and a very different tone from this nation's capital. Until then, you will be talking to someone like me, who is not afraid of Iran and who is willing to contemplate its destruction, should that be necessary.
I bear no hatred for the Persian people. But you must consider; are the Persian people responsible for those who lead them, and for those who are now leading them to a bloody disaster?
149 - Cyrus the Great
Ruvy you wrote:"but children in Haifa and Tzfat have died at the hands of HizbAllah - an Iranian puppet - while children in Isfahan have not died at the hands of Israeli forces"
How about Iranian men and women died in the hand of Kurds separatist in Iran. This is a FACT that they are Israeli pupets. Isn't it Ruvy? Your leaders have Iranian blood in their hands either.
Contrary to defender, I do not deny Hezbollah is trained and equipped by Iran. During the war with Isreal, Hezbollah war room was actually below Iranian embassy in Beirut. Iran defeated Israel in electronic warfare. We broke all their communication codes. We Knew their next moves all the times. Iranian soldiers and officers were killed in that war. Above are all confirmed by independent observers.
Now, Ruvy, your government started that war with sending petrol units to borders areas where they knew may be encountered Hezbollah. Olmert send them to die. Ofcourse, he has justification for that!
Hezbollah is one of Iran's deterrance against Israeli's attack on Iran and your govervment wanted to remove it. Hezbollah fired rockets to civilian areas as a retaliation to Israeli ponding civilian areas of Lebonon for several days. What do u expect from them Ruvy? Just watching IAF almost wiping out their country?
According to debka, now Iran is in command of whole missile force of Syria. Iran assemble its own missiles after shipments to Syrian. But, again these are all deterrance. Iran will not start a war with Israel. This is a fact.
By the way, if u follow the new. A Brithish newspaper published Israeli's plan for nuc attack to Iran. As far as I know, there is no Iranian plan for attack to Israel.
150 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Cyrus,
You wrote (or meant to write) "How about Iranian men and women who died at the hands of Kurd separatists in Iran. This is a FACT that they are Israeli puppets. Isn't it Ruvy? Your leaders have Iranian blood in their hands as well."
My apologies, Cyrus. Apparently, you are right about the Israeli operatives working with Kurdish separatists in your country. So Olmert and his predecessors do have Iranian blood on their hands as well. But none of our leaders call publicly for the destruction of your country, merely the destruction of its ability to destroy us. If your leaders were silent about their intentions for nuclear weapons, merely developing them without making threats of eradication of Israel, the leadership here, a bunch of sluggards and lazy dogs at best, would say and do nothing.
You also write, "Now, Ruvy, your government started that war with sending patrol units to borders areas where they knew may be encountered by Hezbollah. Olmert sent them to die. Of course, he had justification for that!
Hezbollah is one of Iran's deterrence against Israeli's attack on Iran and your government wanted to remove it. Hezbollah fired rockets to civilian areas as a retaliation to Israeli ponding civilian areas of Lebonon for several days. What do u expect from them Ruvy? Just watching IAF almost wiping out their country?"
This is not the sequence of events that I remember. The IDF did approach Lebanese territory. Whether the two soldiers were captured on Lebanese territory or not is open to question. However, the Katyusha rockets were not sent in response to destructive raids but almost immediately upon artillery fire on southern Lebanon. And all these events began on one single day, 12 July, including the rocket attacks from HizbAllah.
The destructive air-raids over Lebanon did not begin immediately at all, and only occurred after Olmert got clearance from Washington as to what he could and could not do.
I strongly suspect that one way or another, there would have been a Katyusha bombardment of the Galilee. In our Talmud, written nigh two millennia ago, it warned that the Galilee would be destroyed. The date the bombardment of the Galilee began, 12 July, was a fast day marking a three week period before the actual destruction of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem 2,600 years ago by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar. So, if one looks, one can see the Hand of G-d in these events.
The fact that the bombardment began on that day was what caught my attention. The pathetic strategy of our leaders, and their willingness to act like the dogs of the United States, instead of the leaders of a sovereign nation responsible for the defense of a country, led to a well deserved defeat.
151 - Cyrus the Great
Ruvy,
You wrote: "If your leaders were silent about their intentions for nuclear weapons, merely developing them without making threats of eradication of Israel, the leadership here, a bunch of sluggards and lazy dogs at best, would say and do nothing."
Despite, I hate Ahmadinejad because of his big mouth, because he can not control his anger (as defender said he was angry when he held the speech!), and because he does not deserve to be our president, but he never mean physical destruction of Israel. What he means is very close to what you like to happen in your country. Change in the structure of your government. This is the same thing we hope to happen in Iran. I beleive Israel has been used and misused by the big corporations for controlling energy resources of middle east. The next step is Iran. This is all about self interest. They do not care about your religion, race or country of origin. This is the reason British government recently approve sale of 72 Eurofighters to Saudi's government who spreading hatred to Shie, Persians, Jews, Christians, Hindu's and basically any nonarab and nonsunnis.
152 - defender
with all due respect ruvy, what you responded was very interesting but also, as i expected, have nothing to do with the original subject, what i was expecting to hear from you was an explanation for killing and opening fires on women and children and innocent unarmed people of the region.see even if iran has blood of israelis on his hand, the thing is, they only shooted rockets at the whole country ( which i still doubt) and wanted to take down the millitary bases, but soldiers of israel knew that there were no officials or terrorists among them and they wasted them with knowledge. or were they just looking for usama bin ladan or ahmadinejad between all those innocent villagers? i wrote : "president ahmadinejad said that because he felt anger and you could say the government and the millitary of israel actually tempted him and the whole muslim world to do something about it and he was the first to respond. when we heard the israeli soldiers opening fire on bunch of unarmed women and children innocent civilians of the region of palestine(the occupied lands) we got mad, when we heard the attack of israeli forces to mosques , the holy place of muslims and killing all the innocent civillians of the region we got mad " this way what i wanted an explanation to hear about from you that you didn't even bother to notice. and i wrote : " if that's how army and the commanders of the israel train their soldiers to kill and no mercy, no heart at all, even i say that such a country should be wiped off the map or destroyed or regime-changed and i give the president a right to say that with all of that. even if the government of iran attack israel with the biggest army the world has ever seen and invade that country, iranian soldiers have enough humanity and soul in themselves not to take the lives of the innocent. what does life of all those women and children and even infants had to do with terrorism and israel's political issues.
i didn't want to say this but from the pages of the history, now we all know that the soldiers of israel have no life, completely dark and ruthless. i fell sorry for them." you didn't bother to say anything about this one either. you just give me your intentions of iran funding hezbollah. and by the way , afghanian millitary command their soldiers by farsi too, but we even don't know for sure if there were farsi commands. how do you know? were you there in hezbollah bases to hear it from their commanders? if not then don't spread empty and vague rumors that are not true. answer it this time ruvy. you are just blaming the whole story on ahmadinejad but as i said before there was a reason to what he said and israelies tempted him to say that and cyrus, there is no way to controll the anger of seeing though people killing weak and innocents. this just how it looks to us and the whole muslim world. what united states is doing is simply turning the people of iran against the government an they have sucseeded untill now, they are trying to take down the government from the inside by banning the country from the peace and the comfort that the people want for their lifetime, for example they gave FiFa huge amounts of money to ban the iranian national team from the international soccer events but after the angry protests they gave iran a temporary limit to participate in the asian cup 2007. thats their strategy to make another revolution in iran as we all know. so don't forget to write about the two things that i told you about ruvy of the jerusalem.
153 - Bird of Paradise
FYI, Omar, at Iraq the Model, has some thoughts about some of the things we have been discussing here. His recent post from Baghdad is worth a read.
154 - defender
i read it, bird of paradise, it was no good, it was useless and untrue, ruvy of the jerusalem , you still haven;t answer(comment 152), do it so, and bird of paradise, do you agree with me on 152? why not?
155 - Bird of Paradise
defender, if the best you can come up with is, "it was no good, it was useless and untrue," then there is no point in continuing this conversation. You assert a version of reality that is contradicted by common sense and objective fact and offer nothing but words of denial and obfuscation in return.
Iran is a meddling, destablizing power in the Middle East. It has repeatedly shown that it has no respect for the sovereign rights and territories of neighboring nations (including the United States . . . all embassies are considered sovereign territory of the nation they represent).
Iran's attempts to become a great and influential military power in the region (including its massive, clandestine and illegal nuclear weapons program) has resulted in the breakdown of its own once-prosperous economy (with high and still-growing unemployment and the erosion of its educational system and even its oil industry not to mention the disaster its international policies have brought to its economic balance of trade).
There is only one explanation for Iran's self-destructive behavior over the past 25+ years and that is its commitment to export and expand the influence of its Shi'ite/Iranian Islamist revolution beyond its national borders.
With its oil reserves, educated and sophisticated population, Iran could easily become a model of health, wealth and prosperity for the rest of the world.
But its potential has been squandered by leaders who care far more for the propogation and expansion of their religious fanaticism than they do for the welfare of their own people.
No matter what you say, defender, the reality is that Iran is not a threat because it is being threatened. Iran is being threatened because it has proven itself again and again and again that it is a threat (including the information included in my post that began this comment thread).
I know . . . I know what you are thinking . . .
"This is no good, it is useless and untrue."
This time, just keep your words to yourself and eat them.
156 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Defender,
The day this country was declared independent, it was attacked by all the Arab nations around it (except Lebanon). We defeated all our attackers except for the Arab Legion, which was forced into a defensive perimeter that constitutes what became Jordanian territory. Had the Jordanians not gone to war with us in 1967, they would still have that territory, and I would not be living in it.
So the record is clear: Arab nations have wanted to see the destruction of any Jewish state since 1948, and they have attempted to massacre off Jews in this country since 1920.
Your nation has decided to side with these losers and your leader has talked about a world without Israel. He, like the Arab Nazis who surround us, is bent on the death of Jews living in this part of the world. So long as he can persecute a Jewish minority in Iran, he doesn't care if they live there. But in his eyes, we do not deserve our own country. He intends to back up his word with nuclear missiles and weaponry. Whatever I think of the Israeli government, and I do not think much of it at all, it is clear that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and ALL who support him, are a mortal threat to this nation and must die.
One holocaust is enough, and even a filthy coward like Olmert will not tolerate another one.
So, put simply, whatever you personally may think, your nation has decided to exterminate ours. If it attempts to do so, the price you will pay will be more than you can bear.
END OF DISCUSSION.
157 - defender
bird of paradise:
what i meant by " it was no good and untrue" i meant that it was not based on facts and the majors that can be disscussed or talked about, that was only the intentions of that guy and and no offenses but i thought that you might manage you figure that out on yourself. the iran's national ranking system has proven that unemployment has decreased to 47 percent and it is not considered as a conflict anymore.
iran does not try to become the strongest millitary power in the region and it's only targeting its only goal which is to be independent. iran is responsible enough to critisize what's best for their economic, political and other national issues and does not need the help of the noble countries. what iran is focusing on is to be independent but apparently looks like the westerns are not too happy about it. but it's the day that united states and their followers should learn that this nation is not their puppet and it will be independent under its own circumstances.
uneducation is not a problem to worry about anymore either, the public issues of this nation has been leaded to a resolution by the government. iran is not in the need of becoming the super-power of the region, because it already is. recent reports of cia and british intelligence association has shown that iran has more weaponary systems than what the whole middle east countries have alltogether, no one can claim that iran does not have atomic nuclear bombs only because they don't have the power stations. most of the iranian people are maintaining that iran does have nuclear weapons and they say iranian officials would be impaired and brain-illed if they try to set up a nuclear power station just for nuclear weapons. they say its "humiliating" and its easier to trade and purchase the nuclear weapons instead which they already have. iran hasn't been self-destructive for the past 25 years and on the contrary it has more been improving every day.
ruvy of the jerusalem:
our leader nor any arabs want all the jewish dead. they are willing to see a change in the government and they will to any costs but it is up to the hands of your leaders to determine if they want to shed the bloods of too many which they do or surrender before anyone gets hurt. ahmadinejad and he is supporters are only a threat to the oppressors and tyrants. is israel a tyrant? ahmadinejad is a president who seeks peace and can't accept cruciality, not a serial killer or a dictator like hitler. he does not want jewish people dead as i said before, the thing is your government is taking out the weaks but the strong has comen for them. that's why liberman is so scared and cries out empty shrieks to the security council. however i never said that israelian or liberman and his followers must die. thats violence which i am facing right now on comment 156 by ruvy, i said we need changes in israel administration but no violence. that's why we have politics. we seek a resolution for our conflicts with our brains not our weapons. and you still haven't given me the answer of my comment 152. it is so simple: What was the goddamn reason to kill and open fire on the women and childrens who were going back to their homes in palestine and not doing anything to the israelian soldiers? what was the goddamn reason to blow up the mosques? the holy place of muslims all around the world?? but you have no answer for that except one word."violence". as i said before and i will again, it's in your blood, the violence, if iran attacks the israel with biggest army the world have ever seen and israel government falls down, iranian soldiers have enough humanity and logic not to take the lives of the innocent childs of telaviv.
but iranians are the heir of darious, cyrus, and kourosh and we have enough will to do anything to make this world a better place to live, whatever it takes. that government sick days are numbered. iran does not want to remove the jewish state, the jews can live in peace and keep their country, we are just willing to make some improvements anysoon now.
158 - mark
welcome back defender, strong comment i agree with defender, i strongly disagree with the contents of comment # 156. nice job defender.
159 - Bird of Paradise
Re comment #157 "unemployment (in Iran) has decreased to 47 percent and it is not considered as a conflict anymore."
Are you serious? And you cite this statistic to refute my assertion that Iran's economy is a mess?
ROTFL
160 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Defender,
One last time - copied from comment #148. This time in bold and in italics.
In essence, my problem is with the government of Israel, too. When HizbAllah started shooting rockets at us last summer, the appropriate strategy would have been landings at sea from the north and west, attacking HizbAllah where they were not expecting it, and massive air strikes on the Syrian city of Al Anjar, where HizbAllah was coordinating its missile strikes.
Had I been in command of Israeli military forces, there would not have been attacks on Lebanon (except for a military offensive from the north of the territory held by HizbAllah), but rather on Syria, which was providing the route for the arms and aid to HizbAllah.
There was no reason to waste missiles on trucks carrying civilians, which is what the IDF was forced to do, given its orders from the clown Olmert, who was following HIS orders from the Americans.
The strategy of attacking civilians in Lebanon was dictated to Olmert from Washington, who abandoned a much more effective plan that the IDF had prepared to deal with HizbAllah.
So put you blame on the interfering Americans and the idiot who obeyed them (Olmert), not on the IDF, nor on the Jewish people...
161 - Cyrus the Great
Defender you wrote:
"iranians are the heir of darious, cyrus, and kourosh and we have enough will to do anything to make this world a better place to live, whatever it takes."
Between me and you. Why shouldn't we first make Iran a better place to live. This is not what we deserve. Leave other countries alone. Let them to take care of their problems. We have our own problems. Palestinians fought against us in 1980s war shoulder to shoulder with Iraqis. They hate Persians. Like many other Arabs. This is a FACT.
162 - defender
cyrus the great, i can't recall that i like palestinians too , i'm fully aware of their cooperation in iran-iraq war and participating against us. i'm only using it or you could say i am taking advantage of olmert actions to palestinians, we all know for sure that he didn't do it for us. yes and i even blieve that palestinians are going thorough these things because of their own acyions but let's not forget that we are not trying to mind other countries bussiness, yes i agree we need to find a solution for our own country's conflicts at the first place, but the problem is soverign countries are just making it harder for us to do so. nuclear production is one of our problem-solutions too but america and israel are doing their best to stop it, we all know that americans do not fear iran making nuclear weapons, they donot want any improvements in iran whatsoever. they want iran to be weak so they do not worry about iran being strong again. did you know that bush just sent another 20,000 soldiers to iraq and they have spotted their submarines and ships in gulf. they want complete control in iraq, they wanted the same thing in afghanistan but they only have the north in control AND taliban is controlling the south. thanks to america and israel and france and germany, iran has not had the chance to solve their own public problems.
(no offenses to you ruvy, i meant the government of israel, i agree with you AT SOME POINTS but i mostly disagree with you overall.)
hope to see you all again in blogcritics one day.
best regards
defender
last comment in this section by me.