The news from Haditha, Iraq, made me sick in my stomach.
On May 26, 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported:
Marines from Camp Pendleton wantonly killed unarmed Iraqi civilians, including women and children, and then tried to cover up the slayings in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha, military investigations have found.Officials who have seen the findings of the investigations said the filing of criminal charges, including some murder counts, was expected, which would make the Nov. 19 incident the most serious case of alleged U.S. war crimes in Iraq.…
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— go to most recent comments126 - Always A Marine
"they knew about the ambush ahead of time, they where part of it, the girl admitted to it, and they got what they deserve."
Did the girl or someone else in the house spot for the insurgents? If all they did was remain silent about their knowledge of an IED then they deserve our scorn and a punishment that should be determined by their government, not ours. I'm curious William, you have said several times that you were 'fighting beside the Marines' in Iraq. What branch are you in?
127 - Walt Poole
In the interest of full disclosure, you probably would call me a "bleeding liberal". This whole thing is a real SHAME (& more) for those involved & the whole US. But the real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn't, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances. To cite a cliche War is Hell & things like this (or worse) probably happen all the time. We just don't focus on it as much. The real villains here are W & Co. & those who "voted" for him. This is what you get in a War, whether we like it or not. Those people should have thot about that then.
128 - Always A Marine
"The problem with Mr. Friedman's answer is that historically, "patriotic volunteer" armies have tended to evolve into armies of men who are in it for the money"
You obviously haven't seen the pay scale for enlisted soldiers (E1-E3).
;- )
129 - pingpong
i chanced upon this page from google news - and now i wish i hadn't.
why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me. why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow 'protecting my freedom' is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq. that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east). why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi's should 'be cooperative' or risk being executed is way beyond me.
i think what troubles me is not that some people feel that there is some kind of reason for what the mariines did - sure the situation is everyday extreme - but that does not mean justification. what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed, that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize 'iraqis' in favor of the 'human' us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi's are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. '
thanks for the opportunity to rant - perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less 'special' than any nationality - and there is really nothing very 'special' about america - move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. - learn to see the shit everywhere except home.
130 - Clavos
You obviously haven't seen the pay scale for enlisted soldiers (E1-E3).
;- )
Actually, I've been paid it; as in Mr. Friedman's words, a "slave", though I never thought of it that way. Don't they keep adding more and more financial incentives these days as the enlistment rates slip?
Though enlistment rates are up since Iraq, they had been declining for years, right?
131 - Always A Marine
"But the real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn't, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances."
Don't be so sure that any Marine in Iraq feels that Saddam had anything to do with the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. The Marines in Iraq are doing the same thing the soldiers, sailors, and airmen are doing...following orders. They go where they are told. Do you think they get orders to go somewhere and they say 'nahh, I'm not going'? And if you think the Marines are sitting around in Iraq, foaming at the mouth for a chance to kill someone, you are equally incorrect.
132 - Walt Poole
In the interest of full disclosure, you might call me a "bleeding liberal". This whole thing is a real SHAME (& more) for those involved & the whole US. The real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & the most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn't, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances. To cite a cliche War is Hell & things like this (or worse) probably happen all the time. We just don't focus on it as much. The real villains here are W & Co. & those who "voted" for him. This is what you get in a War, whether we like it or not.
133 - William Gardner
Always a Marine I am not at liberty to say what i do. I can tell you i work for D.O.D and D.O.S i was located in the sunni triangle. I have worked with S.F. 5-7 cav, 42 I.D. and more. Basically i was there to support 3 rd ID and all branches that fell under it. Plus i should know a little bit about this situation because part of my job was tracking the enemy down from POO sites. Ive done O.P.s, Flash C.P's, to QRF. I was there When them three car bombs went off killing all them Iraqi Nationals and our military rushed to thier aid and treated every one of them. Ill be the first to tell you that not all Iraqi's are bad people.But you would be a fool to trust one of them with your life.
134 - scowler
Mr. Poole, thanks for your disclosure. We probably would have figured out your politics without it but thanks anyway. In the same spirit let it be known that I am not a "bleeding liberal".
I place your entire commentary in the category of regurgitated liberal media nonsense.
135 - John Sara
Regardless of the outcomes of the investigation into the alleged massacre. This does not change the fact that the war upon Iraq was illegal, immoral and unjustified. When no alleged WMDs etc were found it was decided to call the INVASION, 'Operation Iraqy Liberation'.
Sounds like OIL to me.
Two wrongs do not make a wright.
Americans are the invading force therefore should
not expect to be welcome. I do not know how inward looking your Americans are. You call yourself a great nation yet forget about your world policies and double standards which have brought all this hatred.
136 - Always A Marine
Yes, Clavos they have added incentives and bonuses for enlisting in certain fields. But what price tag do you put on risking your life on a daily basis, knowing that once you say "Yes", there's no turning back, no quitting.
BTW, I never considered myself a 'slave' while I was on active duty either. I was proud to serve and if asked, would do it again.
137 - Clavos
Whew, I never thought I'd be called a villain for having voted!
138 - Clavos
I understand what you're saying, Marine, but nevertheless many people do, and for a lot less than you might think. Several guys I knew in Nam did it all over the world for years.
139 - William Gardner
Agian let me clarify myself and say lets not condem these soldiers straight to hell just yet on the words of an Iraqi national. Let our military conduct thier investigation and see what they find. Another thing im not saying Iraqi nationals are inhuman, but lets get real would you trust a crack head to hold your wallet.Hell no you wouldnt so why should are soldiers trust Iraqi Nationals with thier lives when the Iraqi Nationals have proven time after time they are not to be trusted. But letme carify this for you ignorant people " IF YOU HIDE,PROTECT, AID OR HELP AN INSURGENT THEN YOU ARE AN INSURGENT YOUR DAMN SELF.
140 - William Gardner
John Sara your right! Iraq was alot better off with Saddam in control. ...*good grief*
141 - William Gardner
John Sara you talk like your not an American, what country you from. You say "we act like we are a great nation". I have news for you, America is a great Nation and if it wasnt for us half of Europe would be speaking German right now.
142 - Always A Marine
#141 - I have no doubt about that but they were probably paid better than the average enlistee is paid today, and again, when they want out, they can always quit. That being said, I'm sure there are also those that would do it for far less.
One thing that has been said and repeated here is that the Marines in question were 'stressed out' and 'snapped under the pressure'. Assuming the allegations to be true, that would be a piss poor defense. If the allegations are proven to be false, there is still questions surrounding the events that took place. I would hope that those responsible would have the intestinal fortitude to take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences whatever they may be.
143 - Always A Marine
WG - "Agian let me clarify myself... "
I think you've made yourself perfectly (and painfully) clear. Repeating it in all caps doesn't make it any more intelligent.
144 - William Gardner
Well some people a little slower then others. Have to repeat things over and over until it sinks in.
145 - Poole
Mr. scowler: TNX & plse SPECIFICALLY tell us all the liberal media here. (BTW Limb says Iraq is SAFER than Wash. D.C. It ISN'T according to Fed figures. And tell that to these Marines).
146 - concerned
I find much that is being written here most disturbing. I served in the British Army for seven years, saw action in the Falklands and did three tours of duty in Northern Ireland (where I was injured by a thrown nail bomb, the officer next to me had his face torn off)...I was a volunteer as are all in the US/British Military and it always mystifies me when professional soldiers complain about the job they are doing, or how stressful it is in the battle situation. Really, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
There were those in my company who were nothing short of bloody bastards and who loved any chance to use the force that they had available...I would imagine this applies to all armies (yes even the US Marine corp) but and this is a big but, there are very defind rules of engagement. Even if you are scared a professional soldier should be trained to such an extent that his actions are instinctive, not based upon a knee jerk reaction to seeing a fallen comrade. I get the distinct impression that some bloggers here see the Iraqi people as subhuman. Yes of course there are those who will fight at any cost, but in my experience most are just scared civilians who want to see tomorrow and have food to eat. Why did the young girl not forewarn of the bomb, who knows, but I would imagine that the insurgents would be equally unkind to anyone aiding the occupying forces (as they see the US Army)as WG would want to be to her. I do find WG's comments extremely ignorant though...using his thinking it would have been perfectly fine for me to have come over to the USA and blithely shoot anyone who attended a Sinn Fien rally because the money raised at those functions KNOWINGLY went to support the IRA who ultimately killed a friend of mine.
Just bear in mind that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, it is all a matter of perspective.
147 - pingpong
i chanced upon this page from google news - and now i wish i hadn't.
why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me. why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow 'protecting my freedom' is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq. that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east). why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi's should 'be cooperative' or risk being executed is way beyond me.
i think what troubles me is not that some people feel that there is some kind of reason for what the mariines did - sure the situation is everyday extreme - but that does not mean justification. what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed, that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize 'iraqis' in favor of the 'human' us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi's are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. '
thanks for the opportunity to rant - perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less 'special' than any nationality - and there is really nothing very 'special' about america - move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. - learn to see the shit everywhere except home.
148 - Dave Nalle
why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me.
This is a question which I've raised here quite a few times before. There are some here, like MCH who just don't care about anyone but their own people, and others like Gardner who have a personal axe to grind with the Iraqis. But the fact remains that we're all human and there are certain lines which we cannot cross no matter how much we are provoked. To do that lowers us to the same level as the terrorists.
why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow 'protecting my freedom' is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq.
Then you are sadly ignorant of the state of world affairs. We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics, and if we do not find a way to neutralize them outside of the US, we will be fighting them here. I'm not saying that the Iraq war was the right way to go about dealing with them, but the problem is real, and some solution other than just offering ourselves as victims has to be found.
that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east).
Incredibly naive. We've seen the damage they can do to us. How can you possibly think the problem is confined to the mideast?
why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi's should 'be cooperative' or risk being executed is way beyond me.
Well, some Iraqis realize that the occupation is a transitional phase in the process of establishing them with a free and autonomous local government. Despite the lack of coopertation in this instance, there have been many, many cases where Iraqi civilians have provided vital information used to catch large numbers of terrorists.
what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed,
The government which has been installed is far from senseless. It's actually rather brilliantly conceived - mostly by Iraqis - who have put a lot of thought into how they can create a viable government for a very troubled and diverse country.
that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize 'iraqis' in favor of the 'human' us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi's are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. '
That's just Gardner's crazy rant. I don't think anyone else here really agrees with him on that.
perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less 'special' than any nationality - and there is really nothing very 'special' about america - move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. - learn to see the shit everywhere except home.
I've travelled to scores of different countries and lived for substantial periods of time in 7 different countries, including some in the middle east. All told I've spent more than a dozen years living overseas. I speak 3 languages besides English, and have relatives who live in two different European nations. The truth is that America IS special. It's not perfect, but it's unique among the nations of the world in the nature of its government and the freedom of its people. It's not as special as it was 30 or 40 or 50 years ago, but it is still relatively free of a lot of the political, social adn economic repression which are ubiquitous elsewhere.
Dave
149 - scowler
Mr. Poole, it took me a second to recognize your reference to Limb as Limbaugh. In fact I never listen to his show so I won't comment on what you say he has claimed. As do many wise Americans who find themselves in the political grey zone between the extreme liberal left and the radical right, I try to think for myself and I don't accept every piece of reported news and commentary as gospel fact.
150 - scowler
Mr. Nalle, I salute and respect your even-handedness.
151 - Wee Free
"Democracy assassinated the family that was here," - Written on a wall in Haditha
A lot of people don't care to lay things straight, Dave inclusive. I sense a spirit of dismisal of this event in your wtite-up and postings, it's alright that this happen so far it's was done by our boys, yes the U.S. Military is not a mafia but they are better doing the killing than the insurgents.
But you can't seem to remember that our primary reason for being over there is to liberate that country. So what do you want the ordinary Iraqis to make of the liberators if they behave like their deposed evil rulers?
Could could you please remind me what Saddam is being tried for right now? Murder of innocents. If you justify the behaviour of a few of our troops that seems to be going rotten in a barrel of mush, then shouldn't Saddam be able to justify the round up, trial and execution of Iraqis unfortunate enough to be near the scene of the attempt on his life in Dujail?
I guess you will repeat your earlier statement about the mafia now, 'The responsible marines are better than Saddam was because they are well trained and they only killed a few babies' or 'a lot happens in war.' so "Fog of war" applies to that situation too so we should fair enough to give the responsible marines the benefit of doubt. But does "fairness" come to play only when an American is pulling the trigger?
We should give the responsible marines the benefit of doubt, innocent until proven guilty right? Well how does that apply to the assasinated Iraqis in this incident and in numerous other unreported incidents. Guilty based on association, because insurgents are hiding amongst them they must all meet the fate of insurgents. No trial or lengthy investigations for those ones (7 months! How Ridiculous), just instant justice from the barrel of a marine's rifle.
I can't question the patriotism of our troops and of Washington, but this issue is about morals more than anything else, if you don't have it, you are not in the position to demand it from others. If we don't have the morals to oversee that country then we have no business being there or teaching them how to live their life.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, Saddam/Iraq vis-a-vis the United States.
152 - Christopher Rose
Dave: your rebuttal in #77 of my point in comment #63 is simply wishful thinking on your part and also completely misses the point.
The USA is one of the most controversial and, in its own little way, one of the most extreme countries in the world.
If you think the USA is a well integrated member of the global community you are totally tripping out on daydreams.
It's worth repeating: The USA DOES NOT really understand the rest of the world too well and mostly doesn't seem to want to.
The fact that you have, in your usual immodest way, simply dismissed the point of view of a non-American only serves to underline and re-inforce my original statement...
153 - John Sara
Just for the record. I am Australian born an yes I am sad to say my sycophant Government has aided and abetted the war criminals who chose to use the word liberation to murder innocent woman and children in Iraq.
I seem to remember back in 1986 RUMSFELD was photographed shaking hands with SADDAM.
The coalition of the willing actually supplied all the Chemical, Biological WMD in the first place.
No personal attack upon you W.G. (and others) I know war is war and unfortunate things happen but do not use the word 'liberation' when the people being liberated are being murdered by the liberators. It is estimated between 30,000 to 40,000 innocents have died since the beginning of hostilities. Try explaining to them that being alive under SADDAM was worse than being killed by the Americans.
I hate to burst your bubble but America can never allow Iraq to become a Democracy. If they did not have a puppet government they would become a Theocracy which would ally themselves with Iran. People do not realize there is a difference between Westernization and Democracy.
Sorry for going tangent to the discussion on the subject massacre but the surviving child tried to conceal herself underneath her bed and was hunted down then shot.
A good outcome from this is that all these professional trained killers will one day return to their homeland and try to blend into society. These societies have sown their seeds and will reap their rewards.
154 - Bliffle
Haditha was inevitable once the decision was made to go to war and then occupy the vanquished country. Just as Mi Lai was. For politicians to feign shock and "troubledness" means they are either ignorant or thoughtless. But one supposes that they will do what irresponsible leaders usually do: blame the lowest people in the command chain. The Buck Stops Somewhere Else.
155 - John Sara
Smell the roses. You can't see the forest for the trees. This war was wrong. Therefore being part of the licensed killing spree does not make it right. W.G. just because you served in this theatre of war and was embedded with the invaders don't believe that you were helping Iraqis being liberated. People like you are so righteous and have no conscience for their actions. You have made it painfully obvious that you also have assisted in liberating innocent Iraqis to their graves.
156 - troll
having been there and done that WG must continue to demonize 'the enemy'
imagine carrying around images of killing a child for the rest of your fucking life
troll
157 - MCH
"We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics..."
- Dave Nalle
Nalle, please refrain from using the word "we" when referring to others who've been brave enough to enlist and put their lives on the line.
158 - pingpong
Then you are sadly ignorant of the state of world affairs. We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics, and if we do not find a way to neutralize them outside of the US, we will be fighting them here. I'm not saying that the Iraq war was the right way to go about dealing with them, but the problem is real, and some solution other than just offering ourselves as victims has to be found.
Our disagreement here has nothing to do with who is or is not ignorant of world affairs. Rather, we disagree on interpretation of events. You seem to think that attacks and rhetoric against the US are actually a threat or desire to overrun or dominate the US. I have seen very little evidence of this. People such as Bin Laden are more concerned with setting up a theocracy in the middle east and want America out. Not to say that this is at all desirable, though I can understand the desire of Saudi's, for example, to want an end to corrupt rule (which favors America economically).
Since you are traveled, then unless you went as an overpaid ex-pat, you would have seen the pernicious effect of US trade and foreign policy is in many non-industrialized countries. This makes America a pretty easy rhetorical target. And as you can see, the rhetoric works. I believe that it is naive to this there is an 'enemy' that can be neutralized. The more the US and its allies work to 'neutralize,' the easier is has proven to be to encourage these loosly sympathetic 'cells.'
- No point in arguing over the government. Those like me see this as a puppet government that will eventually fall in civil war. You are more optimistic.
- Not sure where you get off on America being special. Americans have economic freedom and if they don't have money, then they don't have freedom. Frankly speaking, America ranks as one of the most intolerant countries I've ever lived in.
159 - Deano
I have only a couple of comments - first - while I sympathize with the many soldiers and Marines who are under constant threat of insurgent attack and have no easy way to differentiate the insurgents from the civilians, the wholesale and indiscriminant killing of civilians either by accident or by intent damages the long-term effectiveness of all the US counter-insurgency operations.
In the long-run, slaughtering a handful of civilians, if that is what has happened at Haditha, does not meet the goals and objectives of the overall mission to stabilize Iraq...it also violates the fundamental principles upon which the US was founded and dishonors the moral code of both the Marine Corps and the warrior ethic.
Second - to expect that the civilians of Haditha deserve this type of slaughter because they didn't warn the troops of a possible ambush is asinine. A significant number of Iraqis do not want the occupation, even if a number of them recognize it as a path to greater stability. They do not like being occupied , a fact which is unsurprising. In addition - they have to live there long after the US patrol meanders around the bend and disappears. They are doing what civilians always do - hunker down, protect your family, stay out of the way of the insurgents as much as possible, cooperate when you have to, with whoever you have to. This doesn't mean they automatically 'support" the insurgents, but when 10 men with AK-47's and anti-tank weapons move into your neighborhood and announce they are going to stay for awhile - and some of them are possibly relatives or possibly tied in with the local sheikhs and tribal leaders - what in the hell do you think Joe Nobody with an 8-year old son, a sick mother-in-law and a scared wife is going to do? Be realistic - cooperation only comes with a strong guarantee of security and that hasn't existing in Iraq since day one.
Debates such as this one which collectively tar the military as always engaged in cover-ups, or expecting them to have some type of omnipetent capabilities to discern friend from foe need to avoid falling into the tit-for-tat partisanship or using the incident to "prove" the war is unjust or illegal or somehow the fruit of a poisonous tree, or conversely that "Iraqi nationals" are evil and subhuman and deserve what they get. Both of these approaches are blatent self-justifications.
Opposition or criticism of incidents such as Haditha does not automatically equate to "supporting the enemy" or attacking the troops. Neither does membership in the military or service in Iraq automatically qualify you to ignore the rules of war as you wish or when you wish. If the marines involved did what is being claimed then they are guilty of murder. being active in a combat zone or under stress does not absolve them of their responsbilities. Thousands of other troops are active in Iraq and Afghanistan, under stress and great difficulty and wholesale slaughter and execution of civilians is NOT the norm for them.
160 - Dave Nalle
Christopher R. wrote:
The USA is one of the most controversial and, in its own little way, one of the most extreme countries in the world.
"extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" - Barry Goldwater.
If you think the USA is a well integrated member of the global community you are totally tripping out on daydreams.
I specifically did NOT say this. In fact, I said the opposite of this. What makes the US unique and special is that it isn't part of the herd mentality and march towards socialism and economic failure which has seized so much of the rest of the world.
It's worth repeating: The USA DOES NOT really understand the rest of the world too well and mostly doesn't seem to want to.
Generally true. And they don't understand us or make any effort to. All they do is resent the US for not living like they do and being successful despite it.
The fact that you have, in your usual immodest way, simply dismissed the point of view of a non-American only serves to underline and re-inforce my original statement...
The key thing is that unlike many I dismiss their point of view while at the same time understanding it. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but after having analyzed its merits or lack thereof.
Dave
161 - Dave Nalle
Nalle, please refrain from using the word "we" when referring to others who've been brave enough to enlist and put their lives on the line.
MCH, we're not living in the world of Starship Troopers, much though you'd like to. In the real world citizens still get to have a voice in and be concerned about what their government is doing even if they haven't served in the military.
Dave
162 - Dave Nalle
A lot of people don't care to lay things straight, Dave inclusive. I sense a spirit of dismisal of this event in your wtite-up and postings,
I didn't write the article, so you're a bit confused here.
it's alright that this happen so far it's was done by our boys, yes the U.S. Military is not a mafia but they are better doing the killing than the insurgents.
You might want to consider the numerical comparison here. Who have killed more civilians in Iraq, the US or the insurgents. The insurgents win by a factor of more than 10 to 1.
Dave
163 - Dawn
I have to say "regrettable excesses" is the worse terminology used for the intentional killing of innocent civilians.
Whatever your political affiliations - can't we all agree that the actions those marines took in Haditha were closer to monstrous and horrific abuse of authority and a vile aberration of our mission in Iraq - not regrettable excesses?
You make it sound like they had one too many martinis and barfed in the bushes.
Dude, you can't spin murder into something less than murder.
164 - Dave Nalle
Our disagreement here has nothing to do with who is or is not ignorant of world affairs. Rather, we disagree on interpretation of events. You seem to think that attacks and rhetoric against the US are actually a threat or desire to overrun or dominate the US.
The truth is that these terrorists CAN strike at the US. It's not realistic to expect them to overrun us, but they can clearly do a great deal of harm. If you don't see this you've been living in a cave for the last 30 years.
I have seen very little evidence of this. People such as Bin Laden are more concerned with setting up a theocracy in the middle east and want America out. Not to say that this is at all desirable, though I can understand the desire of Saudi's, for example, to want an end to corrupt rule (which favors America economically).
How did attacking the WTC help them set up a theocracy in the middle east again? The US had little interest in interfering with the internal politics of the region beyond protecting oil interests and Israel until they attacked us. We were perfectly willing to buy oil from anyone, even theocrats, if they were reliable.
Since you are traveled, then unless you went as an overpaid ex-pat, you would have seen the pernicious effect of US trade and foreign policy is in many non-industrialized countries.
You seem to confuse US trade with the imperialism of the first half of the last century. The effects of US trade are generally extremely positive on every country where we do business, resulting in gradual increases in wages and the standard of living. Many have unrealistic expectations of what the impact of US trade ought to be. Our main interface with foreign nations is through our business interests, and they're there to do business, and trade eventually benefits everyone, even if it's only a matter of child laborers earning 40 cents an hour instead of 25 cents an hour - that's still an enormous improvement in wages from their perspective.
This makes America a pretty easy rhetorical target. And as you can see, the rhetoric works. I believe that it is naive to this there is an 'enemy' that can be neutralized. The more the US and its allies work to 'neutralize,' the easier is has proven to be to encourage these loosly sympathetic 'cells.'
Except that the level of terrorist activity within the US since 9/11 does not seem to have increased, while apprehension of terrorists has.
- Not sure where you get off on America being special. Americans have economic freedom and if they don't have money, then they don't have freedom.
Ah, but the key thing is that every American has an opportunity to have money, and the truth is that even our poorest are better off in material welfare than the average citizens of most of the world.
Frankly speaking, America ranks as one of the most intolerant countries I've ever lived in.
Then I can't imagine where you've been living. Every country I've lived in or traveled in has been more racially, socially and religiously intolerant than the US with only a couple of exceptions. The entire continent of Africa is engaged in genocidal race warfare, so they're right out. The entire middle east is dominated by cultures which are racially, religiously and socially totally intolerant. Southeast asians are among the most racist and clannish people I've ever encountered. Europe holds itself out as a model of tolerance, but the truth is very different. The average European is strongly racist and xenophobic and it's getting worse. Nazism and nativism are on the rise all over the continent, even in England. Even in the Scandinavian countries their famous tolerance has led to a backlash because of the behavior of the immigrants they foolishly allowed into their closed ecopolitical systems. I remember a conversation I had with a German acquaintance a few years ago in which he maintained that black people couldn't learn or understand things you told them because they have an extra layer of skin.
I'll give you Australia and Canada. Aside form ongoing prejudice against their ethnic minorities, they're pretty much comparable to the US as far as tolerance goes.
Dave
165 - Q Bit
Dave:
You might want to consider the numerical comparison here. Who have killed more civilians in Iraq, the US or the insurgents. The insurgents win by a factor of more than 10 to 1.
That's bull shit. You are talking like the Rummy Clowns.
Simply put, there wasn't any insurgency before the US invasion.
People are dying everyday in Iraq. In principle, every death can be blamed on the US invasion and rightfully so - it doesn't really matter if it had occured from an American Bullet or an insurgent bullet.
In any case it is highly unlikely that the deaths from insurgency outnumber those from American Bullets and Bombs.
******
Bring back the troops. Don't let the right wing propaganda muddle the reality. Staying in Iraq will only result in more deaths on both sides. From when this is an acceptable situation?
166 - Christopher Rose
Dave, your #160 is a perfect example of the points I made. I can't decide whether I'm pleased to be right or depressed because you STILL just don't get it.
"The key thing is that unlike many I dismiss their point of view while at the same time understanding it. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, but after having analyzed its merits or lack thereof."
Based on what you've written about Europe here on BC, you don't get it at all. You're a classic example of the man who knows so much but understands so little.
You're not an accountant are you? You sure talk like someone who knows the price of everything but not its value...
167 - Dave Nalle
Q Bit, sorry, I can't accept your argument. People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam. We haven't made things any worse, we've just changed the parameters under which they're dying.
And Christopher, your Eurocentric prejudices are showing, and it's you who don't get it. I know exactly what you and others, including many in the US, see as so attractive in the European approach to rights, society and government, and unlike those who have bought into it, I look at it from the outside, can weigh the evidence and see how absolutely bankrupt a system it is. The articles I've written here on BC merely illustrate and lay out some of the facts of the situation.
As for the value of things, nothing has value if you have to give up fundamental freedoms to purchase it.
Dave
168 - troll
*People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam.*
Dave - I assume that you mean that these deaths were the direct result of Bathist violence
- source please
troll
169 - nobody
Dave, give it a rest; you must be exhausted, poor thing, doing all that research on infanticide and bestiality must really play tricks with your head.
170 - Wee Free
Dave either you wrote the article or not you are still insisting on begging the question.
If we are all to close our eyes tightly and imagine that Iraqi insurgents have killed more civilians than U.S. fire power has since the war started, then does that fallacy allow us to join the insurgebts in wantonly killing. Is this a way of admitting defeat...if you can't beat em' you join em?
Insurgent killing Innocent Iraqis, U.S. military massacring innocent Iraqis, innocent civilians getting killed any which way you look. Who is right depends on which side you are on, forget ethics, forget morals, forget international credibility.
What happens the next time we try to build a Coalition of the "Needy"? Where would our credibility be then? No small wonder Iran can thumb it's nose at us now, Ahmedijad knows fully well we can't come at him alone without losing some foot hold in another crucial part of the world, and he also knows the US can't gather any reasonable coalition because we don't have the credibility to approach worthy allies for military support. That's why he looks relaxed for a person that is living dangerously while the political and policy making leaders in the US grow gray and wrinkly with the effort of solving the equation that is Iran.
But did you say a thousand deaths per month under Saddam, could you back-up that allegation with some solid proven facts? Yes a lot of deaths under Saddam, but the U.S. had a hand in them. From the days of the U.S. backed and actively encouraged war with Iran to the days of the U.N. sactions, we have been stiring the pot of that unfortunate nation counter clockwise for a long while now.
I hope persons like you will stand clear of the flag pole someday so you could have a broader view of the horizon.
171 - Fu Hong Ma
I think it's sad that civilians are being killed. Innocent lives are being sacrificed to gain some progress in the war to stabilize Iraq. The marines involved in the killings should be under investigation and charged with the innocent killings if they did indeed commit these crimes. I don't think we should be in war with Iraq because we are not gaining any progress. This report only shows that the only progress we are gaining in the war against Iraq is innocent lives of civilians being killed. All we are gaining is more casualties. Is that the price we have to pay to stabilize Iraq? I think it's just wrong to sacrifice lives of innocent civilians in the heat of battle.
172 - Richard Brodie
What can you expect when young men from the 21st Century are sent back in time to try and deal with a 7th Century society engaged in barbaric internecine strife?
As long as primitive minds are still controlled by a religion conceived in and appropriate to the early Dark Ages, there will be an inevitable return to perpetual tribal civil war no matter how hard we try to impose an alien modern political form on them.
173 - Bliffle
Dave: "And Christopher, your Eurocentric prejudices are showing, and it's you who don't get it. I know exactly what you and others, including many in the US, see as so attractive in the European approach to rights, society and government, and unlike those who have bought into it, I look at it from the outside, can weigh the evidence and see how absolutely bankrupt a system it is."
A lot of truth here. Sad truth, alas. The Euro approach seems to be to speak nobly but not act. Because to act would make one subject to criticism. And the easiest way to do that is to speak against the US.
174 - sr
Dusty, Not sure if we understand your liberal point of view. Would think as you a more conservative following would instill the desired efect called for. You are 100% correct more of this affirmative that President Nixon would hold true in our current uncertainty. President Carter seemed to distance himself reguarding the Hindasa Treaty. Will respect your opinion. Would you also concur the UN may not be up for tasking this?
Great comment dude.
175 - Dave Nalle
People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam.*
Dave - I assume that you mean that these deaths were the direct result of Bathist violence
- source please
Troll, are you seriously asking for a source on Saddam's record of institutionalized murder and genocide? I find it hard to believe you've missed out on it.
Here's one source on the Anfal Campaign where at least 100,000 Kurds were murdered in 1988.
Then there were the purges in 1991 where over 250,000 Shia and Kurds were killed after the Gulf War.
These are conservative estimates of death from Human Rights Watch. Those 350,000 alone are substantial, but these huge murder sprees are just part of the ongoing murder of Iraqi civilians which went on day to day. Saddam would regularly 'cleanse' his many prisons and just have all the prisoners - mostly political - taken out and shot a few hundred or even several thousand at a time adding up to thousands every year. Plus there were many smaller massacres and genocides. Given the scope of his other crimes, the occasional village of a few thousand people wiped out hardly ticks the register. Then there were the women abducted to rape rooms and the summary executions of prostitutes and thieves. It goes on and on.
For a detailed overview of all the human rights abused in Iraq, check out this document from the British government, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
Estimating 1000 deaths per month is ridiculously low for a regime which HRW described as engaging in 'systematized murder' of its own population.
Dave