The news from Haditha, Iraq, made me sick in my stomach.
On May 26, 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported:
Marines from Camp Pendleton wantonly killed unarmed Iraqi civilians, including women and children, and then tried to cover up the slayings in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha, military investigations have found.Officials who have seen the findings of the investigations said the filing of criminal charges, including some murder counts, was expected, which would make the Nov. 19 incident the most serious case of alleged U.S. war crimes in Iraq.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Q Bit
WG:
You said, "Plus i see L.A. Times didnt mention the fact that the same 12 year old girl who survived admitted she had known about the bomb.."
Tell me the the source of your info, send me the link.
77 - Dave Nalle
Christopher Rose wrote:
Mr Gardner's blind refusal to consider taking the word of ANY Iraqi over an American soldier's is entirely symptomatic of the problems the USA has in understanding the rest of the world.
No, it's not. That's an utter load of crap. His attitude is absolutely atypical of Americans as a group, our soldiers AND our foreign policy. We're working hand in hand with Iraqis to rebuild their country and establish a government, and that requires a great deal of trust. Others around the world may have problems with the US, but if they're based on the assumption that we're all like Gardner, they're fallacious and entirely in the minds of the USA-bashers.
Dave
78 - Dave Nalle
I will always take the word of our soldiers of the word of a dirty Iraqi National who cant be trusted as far as you throw them.
Will you take the word of JAG investigators who said that contrary to the soldiers claims that the people died from shrapnel, they were in fact killed with small arms fire at close range from behind, and that ballistical analysis shows that the guns used were US issue, not AK-47s or other arms typically available to insurgents?
Dave
79 - Brad
From all of the reports I have read the only official (meaning USA official) source of information was from somebody at the Pentagon who wished to remain anonymous. The NCIS is doing an investigation into the matter and no charges have yet been filed. So far all we know somebody who was upset with how the investigation was going, or wanted some money, or had some other personal motive decided to leak some information that should not have been leaked.
On comes the media scrutiny. The media has already made up their minds. They have apparently made up yours too. Our troops are coming under fire for no personal gain of their own. They're dying out there every day for the people who are killing them. It's not our business to pass judgement on them. The military is dealing with the situation and hopefully all of this media attention does not affect the outcome.
What happens if it turns out the majority of this story was made up? What if before the military investigators got there the locals decided to conjure up some dirt by killing innocent people? What if, just what if, it turns out they're innocent. Not only is the muslim world using this as fuel for the fanatical muslim movement but if they are innocent and declared so then they will say we are covering this up.
So perhaps we shouldn't be having this conversation. Perhaps we should let the people who have the information make the determination.
80 - Anti W Gardner
Comprehend all the remarks, but paid more interest in what W Gardner annotations. He is full of shit. You call yourself a human being and you natter like that, maybe you should be part of those we cried for at the park on May 29, because you not supposed to be here opening your grubby mouth and talking.
Please think for once like a human being, and type sagacious comments. All your annotations are just bizarre, meaningless and incongruous. Can you just shut the fuck up and let justice prevail
81 - Carter
You people are so full of shit!
What do you think happens when a roadside bomb goes off? You think magic fairies plant it and nobody around knows about it? Um... no. Insurgents plant it and everybody around knows it's being planted. And they sit on their asses and do nothing about it, a US convoy comes along, the bomb goes off and young Marines are killed as if an unseen hand just reached out.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You have no understanding of the situation these young men are in. They drive around in convoys getting hit from all sides, while the people they are there to help sit on their asses passively while people in their midst fight dirty. Dirty. And you expect them to sit there and get killed.
You know what the Israelis would do after a roadside bomb? They send a bomb into the immediate neighbourhood. You know what the Nazis would do? They would massacre everyone within a kilometre radius and raize the buildings to the ground (they did as much in WW2 and, contrary to popular belief, there were no major uprisings against the Nazis in occupied territories). And now because a handful of Marines are strained to the breaking point and finally fight back in a way that, while it would make you people sitting comfortably at home squeamish, is a way that is quite effective at stopping this kind of attack. And you sit at your little PCs blogging about them - demonizing them - as if they are Mafia. You would shit your pants and turn to a blob of jelly if you were under the kind of pressure they are; if you had seen a few of you best friends blown to pieces. I recommend you all shut the fuck up! None of you have any moral platform to stand on and judge the actions of these desparate young soldiers.
82 - Dave Nalle
So now the Nazis are our standard of conduct, Carter? I'll say no thanks to that plan.
dave
83 - William Gardner
Q-bit i cant give you a link becuase I saw the video Interview on CNN with that wolf guy (Situation Room). It was on CNN and im sure if you check thier website you will find it.
Dave im not sure if you backed me up or insulted me. lol I know im coming off as a bad guy but i really dont care. I know what it is like over there and you are right we are supposed to be working with the Iraqi people hand in hand to rebuild thier nation. But that isnt what is going on over there. The Iraqi People are untrust worthy and they have proven it time after time. The insurgents hide amongest them and they refuse to give them up or help our soldiers find them.
Point is we shouldnt be judging these soldiers on the word of Iraqi's we should wait until our military concludes thier investigation and accept what ever our military says happened for good or bad. The Iraqi people have no credability and the last thing we should do is believe anything they say.
84 - Anti W Gardner
Mr. Gardner was talking about going to war, was it free, even overpaid, there is a job that needs to be done not a law that needs to be broken.
To Mr. Dave, I just think the investigation will not turn out like this if the newspaper guys have not published something out or interviewed some Iraqis. It’s sad but hey it’s a war BUT that does not give any human being whether American or Iraqis to kill another human being in an execution style.
People in the army, navy or military are doing their job just like every other person, but unfortunately, guns are involved, and some few have abused that usage because they have the power to or in retribution, which is totally intolerable
The investigation I believe took the right direction but waited too long, and like someone said, how many more, how many haditha more do we still have in our hands, how many more do we know about.
At the end of this war, we will all see how irresponsible and how untrained most of these kids that jump out of high school into military are. There should be a revamp of military training particularly mind exercise given to these kids.
85 - Brad
Dave,
I think the point he is trying to come across with that a proven effective way of dealing with people who hate you is let them know there will be dire consequences if they take action against you. You may or may not disagree, but you're not the one in Iraq, and neither am I.
Brad
86 - William Gardner
Amen Carter!!!!! Thank You!!!
Dave to your post #78
Several of our soldiers have been killed in Iraq and thier bodies stripped of clothing and weapons. Who is to say the Insurgents didnt use American weapons they took off dead soldiers and do this themselves.
87 - Truthteller
Mr. Gardner,
You're evil and appear to be mildly retarded. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
88 - Michele Mehl
I'd like to know if the “innocent” civilians were housing terrorists. If the marine's walked into a house full of terrorist firing upon them and if "innocent" women and children scrambled and the marines felt their lives were in jeopardy (are these children 13 and look like young men capable of shooting back or were they 3 or 4 an not a threat to their safety?).
If the stance of our government is to consider those that harbor terrorist the enemy, terrorist shouldn't put the lives of their wives and children in harms way by asking them to give them shelter (or share shelter with them).
If the marines truly did this, they should be punished. But, we have good soldiers and hopefully we can hear both sides of the story before assuming they are guilty. There are things happening in this war that are not being reported (for example, there have been cases of terrorist killing children and then blaming Americans). I hope the military is looking at the actual bullets to see if the bullets came from American guns or from the terrorist’s guns.
I also hope that if the marine's had justified reasons for acting, that the Bush administration comes to their defense.
89 - Anti W Gardner
Mr. Carter, executing a human just like you is what you call fighting back; now I believe some people needs to go out of their society and see how people live in other societies and by the way, what makes you think Iraqis believe you are trying to help them.
I am sure Mr. Carter has never been out of his town his entire life, comparing the Nazi’s with the so called well trained American Soldiers. The point is there are some bad apples in the military and it should not take a long time to get rid of those bad apples.
Going to war to anyone in the military is like going to his or her normal chores. That is what they are trained for, and there are rules, there are laws which govern what the person is trained for, that law or rules should be strictly followed, anyone above that law should be punished.
It’s a shame that it took over 6 month before the commander in chief knew about these massacres, American soldiers should be in Dafur (Sudan) and not in Iraq, it’s a shame and shame to anyone that does not support justice when a law is broken.
Those bad apples should be well punished and be a lesson to others
90 - Brad
The media has blown this up and there is no such thing as a positive outcome. More American soldiers will die now because of TIME magazine wanting to get an exclusive story.
91 - BOOO
Some people made stupid comments. Why should those iraqis risk their life to DO ANYTHING to stop the roadside bomb? Just to save the American's life? You have watched too many Hollywood movies. Can they just choose silence? Did their silence make them so guilty to be shot?
92 - William Gardner
TO: Anti W Gardner I could give a damn if you agree with me or not. You sound like that zing fellow, A bleeding heart liberal who has no bussiness discussing anything dealing with War, [Edited]. You act like this is a crime scene some where in rural America! It is a WAR ZONE, People are going to Die in a war. And i stick to my original saying if the people in that house knew about the Bomb and was Harboring the Insurgents then they deserve what they got! I wouldnt give a million Iraqi's for one American Soldier.
93 - Al from MO
As R-Lee says... "semper fi" or is it "shoot them between the eyes".
94 - scowler
Let's agree that the death of innocent civilians is a regrettable tragedy. However let's also not be so quick to "lynch mob" our soldiers. We (private citizens) may never know what really happened in Haditha. Neither side will likely be satisfied with the findings. I for one,however, will not presume to pass judgement on our Marines because I have never experienced live combat. I can easily imagine that these intense repetitive life-threatening experiences may result in a loss of control with tragic consequences.
In every war ever fought, soldiers have done extraordinary as well as horrible things. Heroism, cowardice, friendly fire, civilian casualties..... these events occur in every war! We do not live in a perfect or fault-free world. At this stage in human evolution,
war is still the primary means for conflict resolution when diplomacy fails. Unfortunately, it is not possible to wage war without getting our hands bloody. I place the blame on the process and not the process-server.
95 - what have you been smoking
Ok bush attacks a country that didnt attack us on 911, had no ties with alqeda (now a proven fact, and just saying it doesnt make it so) and you expect the iraqis to help you find IDE. Good for you that you fought beside a soldier but how come none of the soldiers have any backbone to get the ppl who caused all this (i.e rumy, bush and dick) even you admit that it was a mistake (they should be tried for war crimes) you went there to get weapons of mass destruction but seems like you return becoming one urself. What was that moto for the marienss. protect the weak or something but i guess that was just B.S. After the shock and aweeeee did you expect them to greet you with flower (oh i forgot you did) i guess you should have given flowers to bin laden to than.
96 - Clavos
Well said, scowler!
97 - Anti W Gardner
It’s just sad that people like Mr. Gardner still exist aftermath the standing of this country, being a leader in freedom of human and exercising human rights. Mr. Gardner said “I wouldn’t give a million Iraqi's for one American Soldier.”, that just show how shallow minded he is. Yes it is a WAR ZONE, not an EXECUTION ZONE.
Goddamit, you need to go back to school and learn the meaning of being at WAR or better still, help yourself out by going to Wikipedia and learn something, plssssssssssss
98 - what have you been smoking
I place the blame on the process and not the process-server.
exactly right... all for what power, control, money?
99 - William Gardner
It is painfully obvious that you people have no idea what your talking about. You have no idea what it is like over there, nor or you capable of fathoming it. Our soldiers are there to Help the Iraqi People and all the Iraqi People have to do is point out the insurgents and our soldiers will take care of it. The reason the Iraqi people dont turn the insurgents over is becuase the majority of them are family members.You have 12 to 18 year old children over there trying to kill soldiers and catch it on video tape so they can collect thier rewards.I mean i could go on all day about this and try to help you understand but i feel like it would be a waste of time.
100 - Jaymac
What seems to be missing everywhere, including Congress, is an appreciation of just what a professional military force signifies. Except for the Guards and the reservists, who are dying from IEDs because they are the drivers, the combat forces are self-styled professionals, the US foreign legion. Their profession is killing.
These killings and many others not reported ... and all covered up ... are the direct and foreseeable consequences of having a professional force. If Bush had to rely on a conscript force, we would not be in Iraq at all. A democratic republic must not have a standing army that can enable a simpleminded and zealot leadership to drag the country into war as Shrub has done.
Our brave professionals wearing ceramic armor, living in walled medieval forts and driving Abrams tanks and other armored vehicles taunt and mock their enemy, who fight with Kalashnikovs and wear dishdashas and turbans. These rag tag tribesmen humiliated the British Army in 1922 just as they humiliate the american marines and army in 2006. So who has courage.
Ours is not the Army of the United States, as it was called in World War II, but the US Army. There is a big difference. Does this Republic need a professional army or a marine corps at all? Is it constitutional for the Guards to fight outside the US territorial borders.
Support the troops? -- they're professional killers, not draftees. They are a world class embarrassment.
101 - Jim Smith
As a former combat Marine that spent 12 years in the Marine Corps I find the killing of "innocent" civilians a regretable by product of a unconventional war, but in no way do I find the action in itself a capital offense. What troubles me more than the killing is the question of integrity as far as any alleged "cover up".
Marines are honorable men (and women) performing a noble task, defending the freedoms of all of us "bloggers". A cover up, misrepresntations of the facts, and lying bring discredit to a Corps that has exemplified the ideals that this great nation was founded upon
102 - BOOO
William Gardner is really retarded. In #86 he said: " Several of our soldiers have been killed in Iraq and thier bodies stripped of clothing and weapons. Who is to say the Insurgents didnt use American weapons they took off dead soldiers and do this themselves."
So the iraqis were so smart that they killed the civilians with American weapons and invited American soldiers to the scene to take pictures and bribed them to report to their commander that those people were killed by a roadside bomb? What a good plot!
103 - William Gardner
I need to apologize i didnt mean everybody when i said " you people have no idea" some of you do [Edited] Scrowler said it best.
104 - Anti W Gardner
The girls killed inside Khafif's house alone were aged 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates. Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76, who was in wheelchair since diabetes forced a leg amputation years ago, 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three of the middle-aged men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law and four children--4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia and more.
The remains of the 24 lie today in a single cemetery, called Martyrs' Graveyard
Please for God’s sake, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Carter and the other obtuse and imprudent human being that cannot think should shut their sullied mouth
105 - Roderick Beck
Dave Nalle is incorrect in claiming that the Marines started an investigation not long after the massacre. Rather they began a coverup that was only
blown by the press. Nalle is engaging in classic right wing damage control.
106 - William Gardner
[Edited] Jim smith i agree with everything you said but the Military isnt threw with its investigation and we can only wait and see.
107 - Roderick Beck
Jim,
My father served honorably in the Korean war. His view was that the military was the last bastion of conformism and mediocrity. Indeed, his view was that
the institution has been treated as a sacred cow.
Let's talk about the real military. The military is an interest group like any other. To try to portray as above human self interest is naive. The US military will always find justification for more money, more fancy weapons, etc.
108 - nobody
Dave "On the positive side" Nalle: Your feeble attempt to intrument a reprieve to those beasts is preposterous.
Gonzo "ummm..." Marx: Where's your staying power...?
Zing "stop defending this shit" zing: Foul language never made a good man smarter :)
William "You people make me sick!" Gardner: You, sir , are a genuine aberration of a human being who shouldn't be let out of your halfway house without being properly medicated and supervised. Running thru the streets of Baghdad on a Humvee and armed to the last tooth doesn't make you a better man, nor braver, nor better informed. Don't know how this blog ever made it to google; where's the debate?
109 - Dave Nalle
Roderick, I clarified that in comment #12. Those immediately involved did attempt a coverup, but when it was brought to the attention of those higher up in the chain of command an investigation was initiated and has now been completed. And there WAS some investigation almost immediately after the event, because photos were taken of the bodies on site, and those bodies weren't left sitting there for 3 months.
Dave
110 - Clavos
You make some interesting points, Jaymac, but I can't agree with this:
"If Bush had to rely on a conscript force, we would not be in Iraq at all."
In the 1960s, Kennedy was able to involve us in Vietnam and LBJ was able to greatly esacalate and prolong our involvement using mostly draftees, of which I was one. The fact that most of us sent over there were draftees didn't even slow them down.
That said, I think your central point about the danger of our current means of staffing the military with only volunteers is a good one; we ARE in danger of having our military become purely mercenary. There is also the problem of much of the country no longer having a vested interest in the quality of our armed forces, and in how they are managed.
The best solution to this is reinstatement of the draft on a truly universal basis (a la the Israelis). Only then will we once again have a true citizen militia as envisioned by the Founding Fathers.
111 - William Gardner
Anti W Gardner agian let me repeat myself i could careless what Iraqi Nationals Claim we did. Until the Military comesout and say our soldiers did this im not going to believeit. You expect me to take the word of an Iraqi National, the same people who dig up thier own dead and leave the remains for the dogs to eat just so they can hide weapons, then you are crazy.
112 - Always A Marine
It's very interesting and somewhat discomforting to sit here and read the comments posted. As for Dave's comment regarding adopting the Nazi standards as our own, I agree that is not the way to go. As a Marine, I find it more that a little disappointing to see our soldiers and Marines being compared to Nazi's, the Mafia, or Hitler. It is equally disappointing to see comments like "You have no right to second guess anything they did" or "Why does America ... care about the Muslim world or the rest of the world". I spent 4 years on active duty making sure that people like Gardener, Zing, and Dave were free to say whatever they like, whether I like it or not. Freedom of speech is not limited to just popular speech. The popular speech usually isn't what needs protecting.
113 - Anti W Gardner
Mr. Gardner said “You expect me to take the word of an Iraqi National”. Lol, WHO ARE YOU. A human being just like every other human in this lost World we called Planet Earth.
Maybe you forgot something, or maybe you have not actually think this through, the moment a rumor occurs, with more than 10 people talking, then there must be some truth in it.
You can see how sensible you are Mr. Gardner. Why did the Military backtracked their stories, you in no way thought of that, why will one of the soldiers that carried the dead young girl told her mum that the girl hunts her in her dream, never thought of that either, or why did one of the Soldiers called her parents to find him a good lawyer if he did not do anything bad, never thought of that either.
I just think you are one of those down low brothers that believe it is not bad.
Your name really befits you, “Gardner”, please go cultivate the ground and grow some more trees so that the World can breathe better. Let levelheaded and unprejudiced humans leave comment on this blog.
114 - Danyel
I am not a member of the military. However, hearing stories of what is going on over there is very similair to Vietnam. Our UNIFORMED soldiers don't know who or where their enemies are. Our enemies are not in uniforms, they all look like the civilians- kids, women and men involved in the killing of innocent American soliders. Just like in Vietnam, woman and children take up arms and plant road side bombs and kill our men, mostly young men. A road side bomb had just attacked their convoy, one of their friends was killed. They didn't know who did it but went to find out. In rage and emotional disturbance they went into the houses after killing the two people in the cab. The houses were very close to where the bomb detonated. Hell ya, if I was a marine (and mine you I'm a non violent woman) I would be suspicious, scared, vengeful. I would go ballastic and want revenge on the people closest to my dead friend and the bomb. Soilders are human and humans are not perfect. There is a breaking point. I can see myself doing what they did. Sorry you folks who don't want to put yourselves in their positions or who, because your against the war, you condemn all bad and unfortunate violence that comes along with war. Get your damn heads out of the sand. If these insurgents, men, woman AND CHILDREN would stop the violence against our men, then things like this would not happen. We are a democracy and in wars its to our disadvantage because most of our enemies do not adhere by the rules of engagement. They are killers and savages. The US military have their hands bound in the feild by proper and decent rules of engagement when it has NEVER been given to them. So screw it- once in awhile people need to be taught a lesson. Even if you are a 3 year old living in a house with terrorist. Oops. Our enemies wouldn't care - why should we. Osama Bin Laden didn't care when there were daycares and schools in and around the world trade centers. And neither would these barbaric insurgents. So get a life and support your neighbors who are fighting in Iraq. God knows most Americans are too selfish, weak and would never leave the comforts of the US to fight for their country, their families and their way of life. So don't judge nor damn these soldiers. These kids are already so screwed up with pstd what do you expect to happen when you get bombed and your in shock and rage and your buddy gets killed. I'd probably and YOU CAN'T SAY YOU WOULDN'T IN THAT SITUATION- do the same exact thing. SO get off your high horse you selfish, ignorant and forgetful of 9/11 [Edited].
115 - scowler
"nobody".... Your comments are not worthy of the cyberspace they so obnoxiously occupy.
"anti W Gardner".... Your statements of "righteous indignation" are a pathetic imitation of original thought.
Of all the post-ers I have read tonight, only Mr. Gardner has actually been in the fighting that all the rest of us armchair sitters are commenting on and passing judgement about. Mr. Miller as a combat veteran also has a leg to stand on. The rest of us are truly unqualified to pass judgement. We can have our own opinions based on our personal "moral compass" but we should be very careful about passing blanket verdicts against these soldiers without "walking a mile in their shoes".
116 - don
I can in no way condoned the killing of any one including capital murder. But in the case of these killings. In war you are programed that the enemy is of no value and less than human and after a while you will believe this and then with the natural feeling of revenge and rage terrible things will happen. Good troops only do as they are conditioned and programmed. Our troops are stetched and are living on the edge every day. Think of your worse fears, like falling and then imagine what it would be like to hang on to a thin thread 24hrs/7days a week. If these troops are punished severly then I say let this administration suffer the same consequences. Listen ! our children who are over in this war are not natural borne killers. These are our kids who will NEVER be the same,who have been brain washed against every thing we tried to instill in them about empathy and love. This administration is so protective to prevent the citizens of this country to see the body bags annd the coffins of our boys and girls. so the impact of this war is so hidden to the public, and now they make such an issue of this ordeal.IO hate killing and murder in all ways. But this administration has made the decision to enter this war and Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield are just as guilty as our troops.
117 - William Tell
This is the third incident at this location. The last killed 9 or l4 marines.
Those in the taxicab were spotters as were
many of those in the nearby houses.
There is a much more efficient way of hanlding this without Americans getting killed.
These people have no value for life. They execute people daily at a nearby bridge one was
a captured American Marine they disemboweled to the cheers of the residents of Haditha.
If you think these people are nice people and they will accept a democracy, think again.
118 - nobody
Now I'm really afraid, Danyel... I hope you're not my neighbor.
119 - Anti W Gardner
Mr. Danyel or whatever your name is, your garbage comment has been read, you can now go to bed and buy yourself a beer, thanks
Have you been arrested for Domestic violence before, so just because your friend abused you, that means you can go ballistic and kick his or her ass, then something potentially damaging your brain.
Listen like a bird and talk like a wise person, don’t just slink up here and start chatting away, please do not do that, this is a stern issue.
120 - Brad
Referring to the mercenary comment I'd like any of you to refer to a conversation that took place at the end of the last draft between William Westmoreland and Milton Friedman. I will find a verbatim quote of it and post.
121 - Brad
Mr. Westmoreland was providing testimony for a commision when he stated he did not want command an army of mercenaries.
Mr. Friedman (interrupting): General, would you rather command an army of slaves?
Mr. Westmoreland: I don't like to hear our patriotic draftees referred to as slaves.
Mr. Friedman: I don't like to hear our patriotic volunteers referred to as mercenaries. If they are mercenaries, then I, sir, am a mercenary professor, and you, sir, are a mercenary general; we are served by mercenary physicians, we use a mercenary lawyer, and we get our meat from a mercenary butcher.
122 - nobody
And I am a mercenary blogger. Good Night :)
123 - William Gardner
Look I am sorry some of you guys dont understand where im coming from but unless you have been over there in it then you have no idea what it is like. The Iraqi Nationals are two faced they take money from the Army and the insurgents. You cant trust them or take thier word for anything. Only a fool would believe anything they say. It will get you killed over there to trust one of them.I have admitted and never denied that if the Marines did these things then yes it is horrible and they should be punished. But when i see a interview on CNN with a survivor and she is admitting she knew about the ambush ahead of time i have to ask myself. DO i really care what happened to them? The answer is no i dont, they knew about the ambush ahead of time, they where part of it, the girl admitted to it, and they got what they deserve. As far as im concerned they got what they deserve.If the Iraqi people would stop helping the insurgents and help the troops none of this would have happened.
124 - scowler
Point well taken, Mr. Friedman (and Brad).
125 - Clavos
The problem with Mr. Friedman's answer is that historically, "patriotic volunteer" armies have tended to evolve into armies of men who are in it for the money, or more commonly, for the thrill of the hunt and kill.