The news from Haditha, Iraq, made me sick in my stomach.
On May 26, 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported:
Marines from Camp Pendleton wantonly killed unarmed Iraqi civilians, including women and children, and then tried to cover up the slayings in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha, military investigations have found.Officials who have seen the findings of the investigations said the filing of criminal charges, including some murder counts, was expected, which would make the Nov. 19 incident the most serious case of alleged U.S. war crimes in Iraq.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - zingzing
"The Mafia doesn't do investigations."
dude. stop. i give up. not quite. do you not see the connection here? i thought i made it quite clear. do you think there would be no conflict-of-interest at play? not even one little bit? do you trust the fucking military that much? i know you aren't a complete fool.
"In a war zone [the military has] complete, arbitrary authority."
but should they? and do they have complete control over the press room back in bhagdad? because they find them "annoying?" yeah, that's going a little far.
27 - William Gardner
The only thing offends me is how quick you would hang a soldier over the word of an Iraqi.
28 - AK
#22 William -
I Agree 100%. Everyone seems to be comparing apples to oranges here...
29 - QM
William, you are a scary person. A 3 year old child was executed. If the military thinks that is their job, then maybe we should revisit and possibly revise their objectives. This whole exercise is supposed to be about providing 'freedom', which I always assumed meant that you didn't get randomly executed.
30 - zingzing
who's talking about hanging? and i have no problems with peaceful iraqi civilians, especially not the ones with bullets in their backs.
ak, what are you talking about? what apples, what oranges?
your own military says that united states soldiers slaughtered 24 civilians, going house to house, gunning down men, women and children. what the fuck can you say about that? "apples to oranges..."
see dave? this is what i am talking about. the military is very happy to water these things down. walk in a soldier's shoes... whatever. they aren't soldiers anymore. they are murderers
31 - zingzing
yippee! it's the new game, execution by rampaging soldier! appropriate for children ages 3-86!
32 - Dave Nalle
Zing and Gardner, you're both flying off into unreasonable extremes here.
The lack of cooperation of some Iraqi civilians is certainly shameful, but many others do cooperate with and support the troops. But even so, citizens being uncooperative, shouldn't buy them a bullet in the head. If they should be punished there ought to be a legal process for it.
Dave
33 - zingzing
what's unreasonable about being angry that some of our troops are executing civilians? um, it's pretty damn bad. i must say. not much more i can say about it though.
34 - William Gardner
Ok let me get this right! I'm suppose to be all upset becuase supposedly our soldiers killed a 3 year old while fighting the enemy. I agree with you that it is tragic,but it is not our soldiers fault that the insurgents hide in a house full of women and children. When your getting shot at in Iraq you shoot back. Ive seen an entire house blowed up using apache helo's becuase insurgents was in that house. Do you think for one moment anybody including myself was worried about civilians in that house. I value my life and the life of American Soldiers more then any Iraqi's life. Them People are fighting soldiers while surronding themselves with women and children are we not suppose to shoot back? Why dont you take your ass over there and get put in that same situation and see how quick you pull the trigger.
Another thing since your so quick to judge our soldiers how come your not upset everytime them Innocent people sacrifice women and children in the name of allah. Let me remind you of 911 and all the innocent people them terrorist sacrificed to make thier point.
35 - gonzo marx
comment #23 sez..
*The Mafia doesn't do investigations.*
factually incorrect, and woefully naive in and of itself
just for the record, mind you
Excelsior?
36 - William Gardner
Dave do you know what the survival rate of an American is in Iraq if he was to walk down any street unarmed? about 5 minutes. Insurgents is paying big money to kill Americans. Do you know how many times the Iraqi Police have been caught helping insurgents plant IED's. Ask any soldier who has spent time in Iraq how many Iraqi Soldiers they would trust with thier lives.First rule of thumb for survival is never trust an Iraqi National. Oh yeah the one's that cooperate with soldiers usually get thier heads chopped off in town. The Iraqi people are not like Americans you can not put our values on them and to do so shows your ignorance. What we think is right and wrong is completly different to them. And to them there is nothing wrong with killing Americans it is thier religious duty to do so.
37 - zingzing
mr. gardner... nevermind. that's the same arguement vietnam vets give for killing civilians over there. it doesn't make it right. it's not even close to right. you don't walk house to house, killing children and old men. where are these supposed insurgents? never heard about them. all i heard about was a homemade bomb.
38 - zingzing
oh god. why are you defending murderers? they snapped, and killed people who had no business being killed? what, are you saying that killing an iraqi is no biggie because they would kill us right back? hmm? and that makes who better than what?
39 - Matthew T. Sussman
Yeah, well, you know who else killed innocent people?
HITLER.
40 - zingzing
TED BUNDY.
41 - William Gardner
Zing as far as i am concerned if an entire village is harboring insurgents. Then the entire Village is guilty, and deserve the same treatment as the insurgents.
42 - William Gardner
Zing why are you defending Iraqi Nationals. If you know what the your talking about then i guess you know the survivors already admitted to knowing there was a bomb planted and an ambush set. AND THEY DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT!!! That is enough to tell me none of the people was innocent. Just by your speech i can tell your [Deleted] looking for any excuse to condemn this war. Bottom line is you have women and children over there killing american troops and im sorry you disagree with killing them. If you are harboring Insurgents then you are not innocent, and if you attack soldiers then you deserve to be exterminated.
43 - Dave Nalle
Zing, it sounds a bit like you're defending murderers too, though not in as blatant a way as WG.
WG: 'm suppose to be all upset becuase supposedly our soldiers killed a 3 year old while fighting the enemy.
If that's what happened I wouldn't be all that upset either. But it's not. The fighting was over. They lined up unarmed civilians and shot them in the back of the head. That's wrong by any standard.
Dave
44 - William Gardner
I also dont care how many crying Iraqi Nationals they line p infront of a TV crying over there dead friends and family. I will always take the word of our soldiers of the word of a dirty Iraqi National who cant be trusted as far as you throw them.
45 - zingzing
what ambush? i heard nothing of any ambush.
i'm not LOOKING for an excuse to condemn this war. you'd have to be blind not to.
i don't think any of thsoe dead iraqis were actively killing american troops. even attacking them. did they find any insurgents? haven't seen anything about that. let me know if they have. show me a link that says that all these murdered people were found to be surrounding and protecting insurgents, who actually had weapons and were going to attack our soldiers. show me. prove me wrong. i'd like it better if our troops didn't just randomly slaughter innocents, trust me. but that's all i see here.
46 - William Gardner
Dave not one American has addmitted to doing that. We are going on the word of Iraqi Nationals who have admitted already to setting an ambush.Who ami supposed to believe a soldier or an iraqi
47 - zingzing
william, maybe you should read this again. dave: "They lined up unarmed civilians and shot them in the back of the head."
and you think this is okay?
48 - zingzing
oh, you don't believe that's what happened. okay. fine.
49 - gonzo marx
a wingnut who gives conservatives a bad named sez...
*Zing as far as i am concerned if an entire village is harboring insurgents. Then the entire Village is guilty, and deserve the same treatment as the insurgents.*
now, can any other REAL fucking vets tell me just how many articles of the UCMJ this mere statement violates...extra credit for the jarhead that can say how many it would violate if actually carried out
clue forming for this rocket scienctist....the US invaded Iraq unasked...therefor the Iraqis are under NO obligation to help the invading force, especially against their own countrymen and possibly family..and definately at great risk to themselves
would we want them too? of course...but you cannot expect them to undergo the same stress and hardships that military personnel endure
what WG seems to be implying is that cripples, women and children and old people live up to the same standard as professional US military
just goes to show you, you can take the boy out of Stupidville.....
Excelsior?
50 - William Gardner
zing said:what ambush? i heard nothing of any ambush.
i'm not LOOKING for an excuse to condemn this war. you'd have to be blind not to.
i don't think any of thsoe dead iraqis were actively killing american troops. even attacking them. did they find any insurgents? haven't seen anything about that. let me know if they have. show me a link that says that all these murdered people were found to be surrounding and protecting insurgents, who actually had weapons and were going to attack our soldiers. show me. prove me wrong. i'd like it better if our troops didn't just randomly slaughter innocents, trust me. but that's all i see here.
last night on CNN they interviewed a survivor who admitted that she knew a bomb was planted to kill americans as they came by. Your statement is enough for me to know you have no idea what is going on over there, you could never possibly fathom what itis like. Anytime they plant a bomb in the road we callit an Ambush becuase it is usually followed by small arms fire to kill the survivors. I have personally tracked Iraqi nAtionals down from IED sites to find them sitting on thier porch acting like they did nothing wrong while thier entire family says had nothing todo with it. This is what our soldiers is dealing with over there. Our soldiersis fighting Iraqi's who is getting paid big money to kill Americans.
51 - William Gardner
Like i said Not one American has admitted to murdering these people, we are going onthe wordof Iraqi Nationals and there wordis worth nothing. Until an American Soldier steps up and admits it then i believe nothing the Iraqi Nationals say. Ans shame on any American who does other wise.
52 - Clavos
WG, there's photographic and video evidence, shot by Marines.
53 - zingzing
i'm just going by what i've read, wg. was there any small arms fire after the ied? were these people rounded up and executed DURING that small arms fire?
how many murderers admit to murdering? and when they do (if they do) admit to it, how will you feel about having waited around for a murderer to admit it, rather than giving one bit of credence to what a surviving ("dirty") iraqi has to say? do you really think that ALL iraqis are bad people? all of them liars?
54 - Clavos
Coorection to my #52: The video was not shot by Marines, but the photos were.
55 - Q Bit
@zing: clearly that's what WG thinks. He has a distorted view of the world and I won't be surprised if his views are also echoed from other right wing corners.
Forget about murders, how many soldiers voiced their concern on Abu Ghraib before the pictures appeared? ZERO.
And you expect them come out clear on Haditha?
56 - Lumpy
I'd be very surprised if other right wingers shared wg's xenophobia. Most of them admire and support the efforts of the iraqi people to be free.
57 - William Gardner
Im not a right winger im somebody who has spent time in iraq fighting these people. We train Marines to find and kill the enemy. Our soldiers did what they where trained to do. WHat are we to tell our soldiers only kill men who shoot at you first! that is stupid. Our soldiers is dealing with gorilla warfare over there and that kind of war is always ugly. If you want to prosecute somebody prosecute Rumesfeld he is the idiot who cuased all this mess. You people do not have a clue what is going on over there.You have no idea what Iraqi people are like, you can not fathom it. They still have public beheadings and i have seen them cut a small childs had off for stealing bread to eat becuase he was hungry.But oh yeah we're not upset about that stuff!!
58 - MCH
"If you want to prosecute somebody prosecute Rumesfeld he is the idiot who cuased all this mess."
Dittos...and don't forget GW Bush and Wolfowitz...
59 - Clavos
WG #57: ..."WHat are we to tell our soldiers only kill men who shoot at you first! that is stupid."
Yeah, it sure is, and it's also what we were told (literally) in Vietnam--we all know how well that turned out!
Comment only--I am NOT defending the alleged actions of the Marines at Haditha OR those of Calley and his henchmen at My Lai, so don't attack me.
60 - William Gardner
Wel let me say, if these soldiers went into a house and slaughtered this people for no reason then yes they are wrong and need to have the book throwed at them. But all the evidence is not in and there is to many conflicting stories. But i stand behind the soldiers until proven guilty and i will never take the word of a Iraqi National over a soldiers.
61 - zingzing
you can do just that. but it doesn't look like there is going to be a happy ending for you. hopefully, the soldiers are cleared of all charges. that is, hopefully, if they are innocent... also, your grammar is really terrible.
62 - Clavos
..."also, your grammar is really terrible."
Gratuitous, irrelevant and just plain rude, Zing.
63 - Christopher Rose
Mr Gardner's blind refusal to consider taking the word of ANY Iraqi over an American soldier's is entirely symptomatic of the problems the USA has in understanding the rest of the world.
64 - zingzing
clavos--nice to meet you. how do you know me so well so fast? it's uncanny.
65 - William Gardner
Look here i could care less about my grammar or what you think of it. I mean I think your a bleeding heart liberal who cares more about the enemy then our own soldiers but im not pointing that out now am I? Another thing Zing until you have spent some time in some type of combat, war, or simular stressful situation you have no right to arm chair quater back a war or second guess a Soldier.
66 - William Gardner
Mr. Rose
I can tell by your statement that you like many others have never been to Iraq or fought along side our soldiers. If you had, then you would know the first rule of thumb is to never trust an Iraqi National.
You say "understanding the rest of the world" Why do Americans need to understand the rest of the world. Was 911 becuase we didnt understand the muslims?
67 - Christopher Rose
Mr Gardner, I can tell by your response that you just make stuff up to suit your prejudice.
It's clearly obvious that the USA's ignorance of the Muslim world was a major factor in what happened when Al Qaeda attacked your country.
Based on your hysterical overstatement, I take it you'd believe someone with the integrity of, say, Lindy England over the new Iraqi government?
"Why do Americans need to understand the rest of the world" pretty much tells us all we need to know about your deep insight into the world. Thanks for your "contribution".
68 - William Gardner
Mr. Rose i dont make stuff up and I tell it like i see it. According to you 911 was America's fault.Well the only thing i have to say to that is your full of shit.[DELETED] How is that for understanding?
you said : It's clearly obvious that the USA's ignorance of the Muslim world was a major factor in what happened when Al Qaeda attacked your country.
Agian i repeat myself why does America need to care about the muslim world or the rest of the world?
69 - William Gardner
You know im not going to get into a debate about 911 with you becuase it is obvious your an idiot, But i still stick by my original statement that you havenever been to Iraq and fought along side our soldiers. You have no idea what it is like or what they are going through and until you do you need to shut up. You have no right to second guess anything they did.
70 - Q Bit
WG and whoever thinks he's right:
From today's L. A. Times :
The Marines stopped next at the home of customs official Younis Salim Nusaif, 45, his wife, Aida Yassin, and their six children. The 42-year-old Yassin was in bed that morning, recovering from a recent operation. Her sister had come to stay with the family and help with housework while she recuperated.
Everyone was at home when the troops arrived. And all but one 12-year-old girl were slain. Along with the parents and visiting sister, four girls and a boy, their ages ranging from 4 to 15, were shot by the Marines, said neighbors and the surviving child, Safa Younis Salim.
71 - bush
911 != war != killing childrens
72 - Smart bomb
If only those marines on the ground had been in a far away command center and had dropped a smart bomb or a laser guided missle they could have then called it a "wedding party" or an insurgent hideout and they would have completely escaped any review. Use smart bombs, they do not kill innocent civilians as far as our media is concerned.
73 - Vernon
Only the USA Politicans have Rules of War while the damn enemy shoots our soldiers. Our troops should receive Medals not getting screwed by our Politicans.
74 - William Gardner
First of all you are taking a quote out of the L.A. Times and that is all i need to say about that. Second of all like i been saying it is Iraqi Nationals claiming this and we are suppose to take thier word over our Soldiers. Plus i see L.A. Times didnt mention the fact that the same 12 year old girl who survived admitted she had known about the bomb that was planted to kill the marines and that is why she stayed home from school i the first place becuase she knew there was going to be fighting. So agian i say IF THE PEOPLE IN THAT HOUSE KNEW THIER WAS AN AMBUSH SET UP FOR OUR SOLDIERS AND DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT THEN THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.IF YOU HARBOR TERRORIST THEN YOU ARE A TERRORIST. THE ONLY PEOPLE TO BLAME HERE IS THE IRAQI'S FOR NOT WEEDING THESE PEOPLE OUT.
75 - William Gardner
Political correctness has no place in a war!