Army recruitment ads urge parents to help children "find their strength." Hopefully they won't "find" them returned in body bags.
Surely you've seen those army commercials that have been airing for about six months now? Are you as sickened as I am? Well, I don't know about you, but they represent yet another shining example of some things that really BURN MY ASS!!…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - allendrury
I find these ads laughable! Only an absolute cretin would think shipping your boy off to the military would make them a ‘man’. After their military service they could come home and resemble the marine neighbor in ‘”American Beauty.” Where does this fossil mentality reside?
I know who the ads are trying to connect with, and it isn't the kid with good grades heading to college. Now before some conservative goes crazed here I do not mean that there are not some bright peope who join the military after high school.
But I find our current leaders too willing to start wars without cause. A way to stem that would be to have the draft in place. I strongly suspect that needless wars would not be overly popular then.
Had it not been for Bush I would never have thought the draft was an option to consider. But given what we now suffer through, a draft seems an objective way to insure white rich boys from nice Republican families bleed at the same percentage rate as poor kids on the other side of the tracks.
And as I noted, wars based on lies will never get very far.
27 - ArmyGirl
Crap!
Here's an unfettered link.
28 - Dave Nalle
So Elvira, are you seriously saying that undisciplined, directionless kids who join the army don't, as a rule, come out with stronger characters and better job skills than they would have if they didn't?
Dave
29 - chancelucky
Okay, I read the article on military recruiting meeting its goal in December.
2 items
1) they remain behind pace for the fiscal year.
2) they take care to set the recruiting target for the month of December very low. The quota was 741.
I believe one of the issues is that they've been lowering recruiting targets in general. (I'd have to look at the numbers) to avoid the embarrassment of falling short.
I've noticed that the recruiting articles take care not to compare the "numbers" to how many replacements are actually needed to maintain our commitments. Instead, they always only refer to the "quotas". I assume there's a relationship between the recruitment quotas and the actual need, but it's not that easy to come up with the latter.
30 - sr
Speaking of fossil mentality, I present allendrury direct from San-Fran. He will be joined with his war hero Hanoi Jane and sing their rendition of Kumbaya. Must believe this song will put tears in Iran's eyes. sr
31 - allendrury
Well 'sr' I suggest you get a part time job to help pay for the added taxes that all these new Vets will require for war injuries and VA hospitals. I can think of nothing more sad than to see a crippled young man returning from Iraq and knowing it as all based on a lie. But I bet you feel good.
32 - Anthony Grande
O.k., I get it. You are anti-millitary and no 17 year old on the internet is going to change that.
But what I saw in your post is a whole bunch of untrue myths about the Army.
You claimed that they are looking for the brainless, dopey, fellons and just about anyone else who cannot succeed in life without them.
This is false.
The Army is not easy to get into and has strict rules that the people you described wouldn't pass:
1. Anyone that plans a millitary future must take the ASVAB test. This test tests your basic knowledge and just about everything you should know after 4 basic years in High School. To pass this test you have to score a 31. For many people it is hard to get and most of the brainless dopes fail and cannot join.
2. You have to have graduated from High School so eliminate a whole bunch of those brainless dopes who somehow passed the ASVAB.
3. They do an extensive background check on your criminal history. I know for a fact that you can't be on probation and believe that you cannot have any major felonies. I know for a fact that you are not qualified to enlist if you have a history with narcotics (taking or selling). In the program that I enlisted in you cannot have a criminal record at all.
4. You have to be in perfect health and cannot have a history of asthma. You must pass a blood, urine and breath test.
%. Then Boot Camp is impossible to pass for anyone that is not there physically.
If you pass you are now a soldier that can be discharged and fined if you show any signs of drug abuse or disobiency and if ever charged of anything above a parking ticket.
33 - ArmyGirl
As for the issue of "who" is watching the ads and acting upon them, try facts not what you "believe".
34 - sal m
the draft is bad (duh)and trying to recruit for our all volunteer army - which by the way is the world's finest army - via advertisements is bad. sorry but you can't have it both ways.
and the assertion that somehow the army preys on unstable types is the stuff of hollywood fantasy and anti-military propaganda. our army - all of our armed forces - have at their disposal the most technologically advanced equipment available anywhere in the world, and to be able to operate all of these tools of war the modern soldier has to be intelligent and well trained. and by the way, like it or not these people are risking their asses every day to keep our asses safe and sound over here.
if you hate the war, say so. if you hate the military, say so.
And actually, what is your point here? You mention being disgusted on several levels, but don't reveal what these levels are.
Are these "levels" your hatred of the military and the hatred of the war?
Are you basing your point of view on the situation of Goldie Hawn in Private Benjamin and the fact that you know a woman who was misled during her recruitment process?
That's kind of a thin reed on which to hang all this anger.
35 - sr
Allen, I am a vet. Did you see me crippled after two tours in Nam? Of course not. Were you with me at Khe Sanh. Of course not. Then to tell me I bet you feel good for my comment. Cant remember seeing you in Cambodia. Allen this would be a great vacation just for you. I have more friends on the Memorial Wall then you have fingers and toes. When did you see crippled vets at the VA returning from Iraq. Poor fools. Did this all for a lie. You make me want to vomit. To think our men and women in uniform are doing this just so Mr. Allen can blog on. My Daughter is in flight school. She is an Ensign with the US NAVY. Im sure her destination points to the far east. My Son is headed in the same direction as a Navel Aviator. No Im not a man of means. Just love my kids. Almost forgot. I have a part time job. sr
36 - sfc ski
"but I know of at least one woman who was similarly misled by her recruiter,"
Elvira, no one likes to admit they were too dumb to read their enlistment contract, and too shortsighted to see what they were getting into.
I think these ads actually appeal to both parents and prospective recruits in one way; they realize you have to grow up and move out of the house, and a tour in the military is one good way to do it without relying on handouts.
Americans have a real love of prolonged adolescence, it appears.
Here, we have troops in their late teens and early 20's making important decisions and meetign challenges, all of which will help them upon their return to civilian life. (Which more than a few of them will do, even though a large percentage of them appear to like what they do here in Iraq and reenlist.)
Look, ifkids or parents are dumb enough to make life decisions based on a 30 second commercial, they have bigger problems than the ads themselves.
37 - Elvira Black
Hi folks; had to take a nappie and all. Here's some responses. If I forgot anything important, just lemme know!
SR:
Elvira is like, an old doo-wop song I think. Don't remember who does it. The name also represents Elvira, Mistress of the Dark, but that's another story...
You mentioned (comment 35) that your daugher is in flight school. I take it, then, that she is a commissioned recruit. Thus, I also assume she will have the kind of top-notch professional opportunities sometimes presented or implied in the army ads. I'm sure she and your son will continue to do you proud. I just don't know if non-commissioned folks have as many quality opportunities to move up. Perhaps you can elaborate or enlighten me re: this.
I think many Vietnam vets have had a very rough time of it. Vietnam was not a popular war here, and many who bravely fought returned not to victory parties but to little support and sometimes out and out contempt. In retrospect, many feel this was something we should never have been engaged in. In any case, many lives were lost, and North Vietnam is still, if I recall correctly, communist.
Similarly, the Iraqi war is not supported wholeheartedly by all. As I said, I think most Americans support our brave troops but not all support the war and the questionable means by which we became involved. Again, there are real young lives at stake here. I love democracy and freedom and hate the "Axis of Evil," but I still think that some soldiers who have served a tour in Iraq may be returning somewhat disillusioned. I don't know. All in all, I think the decision to send our troops into harms way should not be taken lightly, or with ulterior motives not revealed to us. One might say that makes a mockery out of the cause the troops feel they are there for in the first place.
38 - Elvira Black
Allen Drury (re comment #26):
I believe that many who enlist are lured into doing so by the promise of good training and the chance to get an education. And at least some do find that the potential benefits pay off for them.
But you're right--not many are going to risk their young lives in this way if they have more viable options. You don't see many Congressman's/women's sons and daughters enlisting. Easy to send other people's children over there to do the dirty work.
I am also not implying that those who choose to enlist are inferior or stupid. I just think some see no other way to truly get ahead. My own boyfriend, as I've mentioned, enlisted for Vietnam at 17, right after he graduated high school. He was wounded in AIT, and thus did not have to serve, but was honorably discharged. He now says enlisting was the smartest thing he ever did, since he gets substantial medical and drug beefits, which he urgently needs. But I cannot pretend I'm not relieved he didn't have to serve and risk life and limb.
My problem with the ads is that I feel like they are encouraging parents to send their sons and daughters into a situation that is not accurately presented here--at least not at this time, IMHO. Although not everyone's MO will involve direct combat, many many will. The army's first priority is, of course, getting their recuitment numbers into line, not bettering their soldiers professionally or educationally. As in Vietnam, I think most who joine are those with the least opportunities and options elsewhere.
Not to get too radical here, or imply a conspiracy theory, but I think it is very useful for our government to maintain a disadvantaged group who can be more easily convinced to engage in such a desperately risky endeavor. In other words, those who have the fewest options open to them her are the ones who are more readily convinced to risk their lives "over there."
39 - Elvira Black
Allen Grande (comment 32):
Ah, I see the revenge of the trolls has returned again--now coming to a post near you.
Just as RedTard initially did, you conveniently and immediately trivialize the dialogue here by labeling me "anti-war." Perhaps if you read the comments I've left here, you'd understand that your simple, naieve way of viewing the world is not always accurate, and that glibly hurling insults and epithets really serves noone but yourself.
My b/f had broken his arm badly when he was a kid. He should not have been allowed to enlist in the first place due to this old injury. And indeed, when his arm was broken again in AIT, he was discharged honorably. But the recujiters seemed all too happy to look the other way when they needed folks in 'Nam.
My piece was meant, in part, to be satirical/sarcastic in tone. Somehow, and not surprisingly, I'd guess this went over your head. You're confusing my feelings about our recruits with the way I believe the army views them and is presenting them in these ads. But then, detecting subtleties and refusing to see everything in such black and white terms would take all of the fun out of this for you, wouldn't it?
40 - elvira Black
Sal M (comment 34):
Just as there is anti-military propaganda, so there is military propaganda. This is just the way it is, IMHO.
Again, labeling me anti-war and anti-miltary it order to quickly and conveniently place me into a black and white stance and stereotype me--just so you can readily dismiss as some sort of liberal whack job--just won't wash here.
Thing is, those who maintain an open mind and a willingness to hear disparate viewpoints often realize that there are many grey areas in life, and one can support the troops without necessarily supporting the current conflict wholeheartedly.
I never claimed that those who join up are deficient or defective--just more likely to be disenfranchised and without other viable options. The army ads, in my opinion, capitalize on that--and on a parent's natural wish to see their son or daughter achieve direction and purpose in life--tempered with the fear that their child may lose their life in the process..
41 - Elvira Black
sfc ski (Comment 36):
It's not that I think parents and children are "dumb" enough to make life decisions based on a thirty second spot, but that they may be desperate enough to do so considering the sometimes bleak alternatives.
I'm sure the armed forces are an excellent way for many to learn valuable skills and enjoy good career and educational opportunities. I don't deny that.
But saying that you have to read the fine print because otherwise being duped is just another example of how "all's fair in love and war" is rather disingenuous. Blaming the victim doesn't seem like the answer to me. If I feel the ads are deliberately misleading, then I also feel that people who are genuinely looking for a career or education may take the message of these ads to heart--perhaps in a very literal manner.
When I make an important life decision, I like to be able to first explore all the available options, including their pros and cons, and then make an informed choice. I don't think these ads serve that purpose, esp. if it's so readily agreed that you do have to be astute enough to read the fine print. Doesn't this indicate a level of dishonesty, perhaps even "trickery"--understandable, perhaps, from the army's point of view--that even those in total support of the war readily admit to?
42 - Elvira Black
Anthony Grande:
Oops--sorry for calling you Allen. Brain spasm...
43 - sfc sski
By metioning the fine print, I meant to illustrate that people don't always consider the full ramifications of their actions. As in, " I joined the Army, but now they tell me I have to go to war?".
If you were to read an actual enlistment contract, you'd see it is pretty straightforward.
Another sticking point, "they are encouraging parents to send their sons and daughters into a situation that is not accurately presented here"
Actually the ads suggest that people look into the pros and cons of enlistment, not just sign up.
44 - Shark
Simple solution: Bring Back The Draft.
~end of "debate"
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Andy's line of the day: "...the Navy isn't really the military..."
heh.
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RedTard, when you say "your kind" -- you should replace it with a new phrase, it's a little less German-sounding; and hey, do you like Ross Perot? That little nasal whine combined with a chihuahua-like bark....?
"You people... you people..."
Seriously. "You people" sounds better than "YOUR KIND"
Yer welcome,
Shark -- CEO & Marketing Director at Final Solutions, Inc.
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STEPS IN Pavlov's Revenge:
1) "liberal" speaks
2) Redtard salivates
3) Redtard accuses speaker of hating America and opposing freedom.
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I did a take on this ARMY AD issue many moons ago.
It's funny, tho.
45 - Andy Marsh
I used to hear the same thing from boneheads that joined the navy...you mean I have to go to sea??? DUH!
I joined when I was 17...I had to get away from my parents. When I retired almost 10 years ago..I told my father at my retirement ceremony..."Pop...you were a real asshole when I was 17...sure glad you grew out of it!"
Elvira - I was enlisted, not an officer...for 20 years...I added up all my classroom hours while in the navy a couple of years ago...over 4000 hours of classroom time...4000 hours...and I wasn't even in the nuclear field! A typical work year, that's 40 hours a week times 52 weeks, is only 2080 hours! Think about that...that's almost 2 straight years of 40 hours a week in a classroom. Plus they fed me and gave me a place to sleep...free medicial and dental...an awesome retirement plan...where else can you retire and collect a pension at 36?
I have no regrets...regardless of what assholes like drury say!
Ask your BF if going in when he was 17 was a good thing or a bad thing...I know it sure helped me grow up...although...I'm still pretty immature now...but I like it that way...keeps me young!
46 - elvira Black
sfc sski:
Here's the thing:
Everyone knows there are risks involved in joinging up--esp. during wartime. One question is, then: if I am joining up and risking my life for my country, why am I being asked to do so?
I'm a baby boomer, and my dad served in WW II. Everyone in my cohort for the most part can say the same. The cause we were fighting then was overwhelmingly urgent; there was no controversy at home over whether going over to Europe and risking life and limb were the right thing to do.
Even if you have no doubts that we should be involved in the current conflict, does it not give you pause that the Administration was not forthcoming about why we went there in the first place?
Secondly, I don't see anywhere in the army ads where it talks about the cons of joining up--at least not in any commercial I've seen. I maintain, again, that many who sign up do so because they have little opportunity or options for advancement--or at least, don't see any--and are willing to risk their lives for some perceived personal benefit.
The benefit being presented in the ads is clear. Training, education, a chance to do something important to the country, and become a "man." I sardonically implied, in my "interpretatioin," that a parent might be relieved to get their kid out of the house and on with their lives.
But from what my boyfriend has told me, this was the situation he was faced with at 17. He was an "air force brat," whose father had served not only during WW II but also in Vietnam--in the second case teaching English to (I would imagine) the South Vietnamese we were aiding). My b/f recalls he was over there for a very long stretch of time, leaving his mom to care for five children (my b/f, three brothers, and a sister who later passed away).
He also told me that in essence, his dad, who had served bravely, got kind of a raw-ish deal. Although I can't swear to it, he basically said that his dad was compelled to go over to Vietnam in order to remain in the military and be able to eventually retire with a pension. In fact, he injured his back there severely, but did not complain for fear of being thrown out altogether and, again, losing his livelihood. After the war, he'd tried teaching as a civilian, but did not make enough for his family, and thus accepted this situation.
His dad never received the Purple Heart he was entitled to, and was denied the rank he deserved due to a clerical error. He never make a stink about it, but getting his rank rectified would have meant better benefits and a larger pension for his family.
I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but the point I'm making is that the army as an insitution is not primarily concerned with the potential individual benefits to those who serve. The fact that funds to VA hospitals have been cut in recent years attests to that.
I maintain that many who would never ordinarily undertake a "job" where they would risk life and limb feel compelled to do so because the alternatives, for them, look grim. And their parents may also perceive this, as they worry what the future holds for their sons or daughters. They can't afford to send them to college, for one thing, as many others more well off can. To them, it thus seems like the horrible prospect of losing their child may be worth the risk. This is the side that the army presents--because they need recruits. It just seems to me that the ad campaign, like so many others, is absurd on the face of it.
Everyone knows that MacDonald's commercials don't really discuss the disadvantages of Big Macs and fries. Cigarette ads (though less ubiquitious than they used to be) don't talk about cancer, though they may need to add a warning in the ad. Does this mean that any smoker will look at the warning, suddenly realize for the first time that cigs can kill you, and quit then and there?
I'll take it even further. We now have ads for every prescriptoin on the market, and furthermore, these ads are aimed directly at the consumer, and not the doctor. In other words, we are to "ask our doctor about x." Are we the doctors? No. But the drug companies will take all the help they can get.
Do these ads discuss the risk? Yes, the "fine print"--in this case, potential side effects--are run through, including death in some cases. Does this stop people from "asking their doctor" about these meds? Not if the meds will help relieve often very distressing symptoms that are interfering with the quality and possibly length of life.
We do cost-benefit analyses of this kind every day--weighing the risks against the benefits of our ultimate decisions. For many people--including Congressmen's children--the risks would not be worth the potential reward, because they don't need the Army to help train them or put them through college. Do you see many of these more privileged youngsters lining up to be recruited? No, just as you wouldn't see someone with a mild headache asking their doctor for a prescription for migraine medication. And in some cases, at least, consumers who have symptoms prefer to forego a risky med that may very well kill them, depending on how urgently they think they need it.
So if erectile dysfunction is a very distressing symptom to you, you may "ask you doctor about Viagra" even after knowing it could kill you.
The difference is, in this case, that those "buying" know the risks, but choose to take them in many cases because the alternatives look less desirable, albeit much safer.
Do I understand why the Army runs these commercials? Absolutely. But in a climate where we are involved in a controversial war, and with so much coming to light regarding the real reason we actually got involved and risked the lives of our young people, I maintain that this renders the current ads as the equivalent of a cruel joke--and the joke, as in so many cases, is on the poorest and most disadvantaged of our fellow citizens.
47 - Andy Marsh
Elvira - I think you want disclaimers on the commercials...like the ones for stuff like olestra...but I don't think the army causes things like anal leakage!!!
I would say...that if your to stupid to realize that you may end up in a war if you join the army..especially in this day and age...then you probably won't be able to pass the ASVAB test anyway...and you can't get in!
48 - Andy Marsh
and VA benefits come from congress...not the military!
49 - Elvira Black
sfc ssk:
Let me also add a more personal example, lest you think I'm just sitting high atop my ivory tower. I have asked my boyfriend many times why he joined up for Vietnam at the age of 17, right after finishing high school a year earlier than most. At various times, he brings up various reasons.
Firstly, he was, as I say, an "air force brat." He and all his siblings were enormously proud of their dad's bravery, and looked up to him as a role model. He, in turn, often stressed the advantages of a career in the sevice, citing the benefits and job security. This despite the fact that his NCO military pay did not stretch far with five children to feed--but the money he made teaching in the 60s for the public schools simply did not suffice, so he re-enlisted.
I think this was a good part of the reason my b/f and two of his brothers served, though his brothers were too young to serve in 'Nam.
After high school, my b/f weighed his options. He knew if he waited to be drafted, aside from perhaps letting his dad down (or so he thought), he would face an even more unpleasant fate than the rigors of basic per se. Being an enlisted man meant better treatment and more respect from his superior officers, right off the bat. Given the example of an adored father, his sense of self-worth would not allow him to wait to be called to service.
Secondly, his parents had no money to send him to college, and he was not of a mind to head off to Canada. I should hasten to add that his intended MO was medic, one of the most risky of all MOs in the field, as I understand it. Although he wanted to serve with valor, he preferred not to be on the delivering end of a gun if at all possible.
My b/f, coming from a poor family, had been working at least part time for many years--since age eight or so, when his parents compelled him to take a paper route to help out with family expenses. He knew that after high school he would have to get a job in a hurry or else join up. He did get a job, but it was very dead end. So the army seemed like the most logical choice for him.
Although neither he--nor his father for that matter--now believes that the Vietnam conflict was a wise decision for the US to get involved in, he does feel that his training--before he received the "million dollar wound" preventing him from serving--helped him develop a sense of strength, order, and discipline. But for a number of his cohorts there, being in the armed forces also meant coming home with an addiction to heroin, PTSD, or grave physical injury. All this, and more--instead of a parade, they got basically spit on, did they not?
Nevertheless, I'm sure there are young people who do benefit from joining up in many ways. I'll grant you that. I'm not a "Hanoi Jane," and I do realize that sometimes war is necessary, and that our country must be defended and protected. I hope this helps clarify my position for you and others who have questioned it here.
50 - Bing
Post #31
Allen I can think of something more sad than what you mentioned......a vet coming back from Iraq only to have "enlightened liberals" tell him over and over again that he fought a war based on lies when he knows it's not true.
51 - Elvira Black
Shark:
I knew you were brilliant, but I had no idea you were capable of this degree of merciless satire! I ROLFd all over myself at the evil genius of your "ad campaign." Whoa....you are wicked!
Andy:
Don't know when you served, but yes, one of my b/f's brothers was able to get his BA and master's thanks to the armed forces. He served during peace time though, so it really worked to his advantage. He was, incidentally, an MP.
As I've said above, I'm not naieve enough to expect the army to put little disclaimers in like: warning--joining the army may be hazardous to your health. Of course not!
And I don't think people join because they are boneheads. They join in some cases because it seems like the best alternative possible for them. It sounds like this was the case for you as well, no?
You also said that VA benefits come from Congress. Well, this is the same Congress that ok'd this war, no? Without having all the facts at hand? The same Congress that does not urge their own kids to join up to defend their country? Who can cut benefits at will for our troops and our vets? That Congress?
52 - elvira Black
Bing:
As I have stated repeatedly, I am not a liberal---though I do consider myself enlightened, thanks. I can only assume that eigher you have not perused the whole thread or my comments therein--or that you are simply more invested in hurling cheap epithets than in exploring the "truth" yourself.
53 - Andy Marsh
Yeah..that would be the congress...but I'll also say that I'd do whatever I could to get my own kids out of serving! They're girls though...don't give me that womens lib crap either! and we have a pretty good lobby group called the FRA...Fleet Reserve Association...that does it's best to maintain our benefits.
It was the best move for me because I was an obnoxious 17 year old who's father drove a Kenworth tractor trailer with no power steering...in other words...he had arms like my freaking legs...and he hit really really hard...thank goodness though...not very often!
and so you know...I was in the navy from '77 to '96. So, I missed Vietnam by, what a year or two...and I was in a factory school in Syracuse NY for Desert Storm.
54 - Elvira Black
Andy:
Because he is still poor and has major health concerns, my b/f is extremely glad he signed up because the health benefits made it worthwhile in retrospect. He doesn't get a VA pension, BTW--just served and got out.
I'm just glad he didn't come home with a toe tag, because then I would never have met him.
55 - ArmyGirl
Elvira,
You keep spewing this nonsense about the "poor and disadvantaged" being deluded into service. You still don't know the facts about enlistment demographics.
You call yourself a Libertarian? Try Idiotarian!
56 - Sister Ray
The idea of achieving manhood through battle has been around a lot longer than this particular ad campaign.
The "Army of One" slogan was weird. No wonder it's gone.
The draft used to be a fact of life - if you were a man, you went into the military. That was how the world worked. It's a different world now.
You weaken your argument with the reference to a fictional comedy like "Private Benjamin."
57 - Elvira Black
ArmyGirl:
Thank you first of all for your personal attack, which is not allowed. As an army girl, I'm sure you are acquainted with rules and reg's, no?
Facts is a relative term. One woman's facts are another's partisan interpretation of the stats to prove a point that the "analyzer" already sees as a foregone conclusion.
Hmmm....I see the report is courtesy of the Heritage Foundation--correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a conservative think tank with an obvious bias and agenda?
The "unexpected rise in re-enlistment rates," for example--how much is this to do with the necessity of those who thought they could come home who have been pressed into extra service due to lower (yes lower) recuitment figures?
I have read through most of what you provided in the link, and I find it to be a very "creative" interpretation of stats. Ever heard the saying: There's lies, there's damn lies, and there's statistics?
I don't have the benefit of a cut and paste option as far as I know, so I can't elaborate much further and don't feel any obligationi to do so.
As I said before, those who come in for the kill with a personal attack, assuming they know where I stand and what they can label me, are really not following the "rules" of reasoned, albeit sometimes very "lively", discourse. Save your blunt attacks for the army, Army Girl.
58 - Elvira Black
Sister ray:
You say:
"You weaken your argument with the reference to a fictional comedy like "Private Benjamin."
Well, I'm a writer, and I admit that I like to be read. Posts where people can find a touchstone, even if it is a little "off the wall" or tongue in cheeck, are probably more likely to be read and discussed.
Call it irony, poetic license, dramatic effect, what have you. From those I have talked to, the army is not forthcoming about all the "cons" of enlistment. Even those who are "for" this war readily admit that you have to be a fool not to understand the risks involved, and if necessary to read that fine print. No way the army is going to go out of their way to aid you--and why should they?
I find humor, rather than the humorless bashing engaged in by individuals such as ArmyGirl, much more likely to make people sit up and take notice enough to read and respond to a post.
And being a typical writer who likes to be read, I'm all for that.
59 - Andy Marsh
I think you should have used the "Stripes" reference...it probably would have gone over better...much more popular movie...IMHO!
You know...Bill Murray screaming, "ARMY TRAINING, SIR!"
60 - Dave Nalle
Thank you first of all for your personal attack, which is not allowed. As an army girl, I'm sure you are acquainted with rules and reg's, no?
That's not a personal attack. A disagreement or a statement that your facts are incorrect is not a personal attack.
Facts is a relative term. One woman's facts are another's partisan interpretation of the stats to prove a point that the "analyzer" already sees as a foregone conclusion.
No, facts are facts. Interpretation is something different. Most of us can tell the two apart.
Hmmm....I see the report is courtesy of the Heritage Foundation--correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a conservative think tank with an obvious bias and agenda?
The raw data is what it is. It's indisputable and it's available from other sources and remains exactly the same. The analysis may be biased, but the facts which it is based on are not.
The "unexpected rise in re-enlistment rates," for example--how much is this to do with the necessity of those who thought they could come home who have been pressed into extra service due to lower (yes lower) recuitment figures?
None, because it doesn't say 'unexpected rise in involuntary retention', it says 'reenlistment'. Reenlistment is voluntary.
I've read the source data direct from the army, and the Heritage report is basically correct. Enlistment resurged in the second half of 2005 for the regular armed forces, and in fact for years the breakdown of troops has been dominated by the white middle class, not the poor and minorities.
Dave
61 - Elvira Black
Andy:
I don't remember if I saw that movie--if I did it's too long ago to recall most of it. But from the line you quoted, i assume that the implication was that army recruits are less than equipped for normal life and are only fit for following orders and putting heads on sticks.
Since I'm trying not to alienate anyone right off the bat, I have to say that using that ref might stir up some people--SOME people--(or maybe just one?) who posted here--who could in all likelihood truthfully say:
"I resemble that remark."
62 - Andy Marsh
actually...in Stripes...the company's drill sargeant gets blown up, so they end up finishing their training on their own...they show up for graduation at the very last minute...the base commander asks..."Where have you been?"...Murray's character says..."Training Sir"..."what kind of training?" asks the commander...Murray, "ARMY TRAINING, SIR!"
very funny movie...one of my favorites!
63 - Elvira Black
Dave:
Hmmm. Do the demographics on income and education include Commissioned officers, for example? This would likely skew the income/educational level upward.
Middle class is a relative term. My b/f's family might have been considered middle class by this standard, but the fact was that he had zero chance of getting funding from his parents for college. With five kids, his parents could literally barely put food on the table. Luckily, they got a lot of that government cheese and army surplus peanut butter to stretch out those elaborate "middle class" meals.
Middle class does not necesarilly equal wealthy, or even "comfortable"-- or college educated.
Whites make up a vast percentage of the general pop, so it does not surprise me to learn they may make up the majority of the army pop. The old "army of one" campaign was designed to try to lure in more poor minorities, (empasis on the world minority and what it literally implies) who bristled at the idea of enlisting, despite poor prospects and low income. Thus more middle class recruits.
An epithet like "idiotarian" aimed specifically at me is, in my book, an ad hominem personal attack. I'll let the comments editor decide.
Enlistment served in the second half of 2005...hmm...I'll have to double check the "facts" for that one. Perhaps those army commercials paid off after all. I believe someone else pointed out that the army decreased the "enlistment goal" number to avoid embarassment after recruitment goals were not met.
PS: just checking--Is enlistment the same as recuitment? Someone tell me--isn't an enlisted man officer material?
I admit that I could be wrong about the para immediately above--I've been known to be wrong before lol. Thus I've posed it as a question.
Reenlistment may be voluntary, but what's your def of "voluntary?" I'm not over there, so I can't say, but I never used the phrase "unexpected rise in involuntary retentioin," which you chose to put in quotes as if I'd said it.
When I said (and I quote) "pressed into extra service," this could simply mean pressure exerted to stay the course because the recruits are needed for a cause they supposedly fiercely believe in.
"No, facts are facts. Interpretation is something different. Most of us can tell the two apart."
And interpretations often vary, depending on one's own beliefs and agendas. Thus the perception of the "facts" is quite malleable, depending on where you sit.
64 - Welfare Cheese
When I was a senior in high school it was a running joke to give your buddies name and address to recruiters. They would show up on their doorstep within a week. I would rather talk to a Jehova's witness.
As far as the ASVAB, we were forced to take it our senior year. They said if you don't want it graded don't sign it. I didn't and they did. I filled in abacadaba for the whole test and passed. One of the first questions was something along the lines of: A kangaroo is a (a)plant (b)mammal (c)chemical (d)none of the above.
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
Albert Einstein
65 - Justin Berry
How do you feel about the Marine ads? I never saw one that said it was easy. I know you havent stated that they burned your butt, just curious. Marines are about the only branch that hasnt had trouble with recruiting. As this is my branch of choice, I am sure that my experience will vary greatly from other branches.
66 - Elvira Black
Welfare cheese (I'm lol'ing as I type this--great name):
Now, now, play nice and don't irk the other commenters! That's a good cheese.
Great Einstein comment--only thing is you didn't enclose quotes so someone might (duh) think that Einstein took the test and put Abracadabra in there too.
He didn't, did he?
67 - Andy Marsh
Justin - is it true...once a marine, always a marine? Or no such thing as an ex-marine? Just curiousity from one of those that haul you guys around for a living...
68 - Elvira Black
Justin:
Yes, the Marine ads are quite different. They appeal, I think, to those who want to stand out from the rank and file. The ad basically implies that it's tough to get in and it's a tough job too.
69 - Elvira Black
Hey--pssst---
Anyone interested in another frenzied comment battlezone might want to also check out Pro-Life or Anti-Sex? if you haven't already.
Speak out and (as the right wing curmudgeon and popular NYC radio host Bob Grant always said) let your voice be heard!
(Only problem was, if he didn't like what he heard in your voice, he'd sometimes hang up on you and intone:
Get off my phone, you creep!)
But anyway...carry on!
70 - zingzing
andy marsh: "I think you want disclaimers on the commercials...like the ones for stuff like olestra...but I don't think the army causes things like anal leakage!!!"
i think they call this "fecal urgency" these days. i can't decide which is worse, but i tell you, if my band every pulls a "hey jude/revolution" style double-a side single, it would have to be called "anal leakage/fecal urgency." it's all too much.
71 - Andy Marsh
I didn't ask for the disclaimers...I was thinking that might help Elvira and the temp of her butt! I knew what I was getting into all 4 times I enlisted!
72 - Justin Berry
Yes it is true for me. I cant speak for all of my brothers but I will say I still feel like a Marine. I consider every marine past and present my brother and would gladly do anything for them, even die with them. I will fight to the death with them in hopes that they make it through. Thanks for all the free luxury cruises. I am sure if you guys hadnt been around they would have tried to make us swim everywhere. Semper Fi
73 - Walker
There is nothing wrong with the ads.
It's your typical brain washing tactic to get new meat on the front lines.
At least they don't conscript you so they are not to blame if anything happens to you.
They just convince you to go out and risk your life some place you've never heard of.
In a war that you have no idea what its all about.
For a commander and chief whos kids are home safe and tucked into their beds wearing the designer PJ's.
And if you get hurt or killed, well it's your fault for signing up and not the govts.
Sweet, finally the govt isn't going to get the blame.
WRONG!
Yes they should because the Govt is preying on the poor.
They know that poor people can't afford to send their kids out for a secondary education.
So they offer free eduction after you complete your term of duty.
The poor can't afford to pay for a college education and the only way to do so is to join one of the armed forces.
After you are done then you get to go to school, providing you live long enough to get there that is.
They should be finding ways to educate the poor not eliminate them.
I have read a couple of blogs of mothers praying for the safe return of their kids because they took the military so that they could get and education.
I could understand fighting for your country and protecting your family, but when there is no need for a large military why recruit?
Is there a hidden agenda?
Pencils for bullets.
So much for the pen being mightier the the sword.
You need to fire the bullet first before you can pick up the pen according to the Govt or stay poor and uneducated.
But you know what is even more scarier?
It's the fucken educated people that are coming up with all of this shit.
"Sigh"
74 - Elvira Black
Justin:
I think you represent our country's "knights in shining armor." Thank you!
Walker:
This is the basic position I maintain as well, though a few others here seem to vehemently disagree. Not talking about WW II, but about a current war that we were led into under false pretenses and that our young people are risking their lives for.
As I said elsewhere, I would even go so far as to be a bit on the "conspiracy theory-ish" side by saying there are definite advantages for the government---and maybe even to the economy --to maintain a poor/underclass. This way, there will always be a fresh supply of those who are desperate enough to enlist in the hopes of grabbing up those benefits. Some do; some die.
Easy to say que sera sera to the death toll when, like our President, you don't have any kids serving.
I don't know if anyone else here is as enraged as I am over Dick Cheney's hypocrisy--from what I understand he got deferrments three times. Now he is one of our most gung ho supporters of the war, is he not? Tell me if I'm wrong.
In a word (or two): It sucks.
75 - EMC(SW) USN Retired
Hi all,
I spent 20 years in the navy, ending in 2002. I admittedly am not coming from a reserve perspective, but an active duty one, but I'd like to comment nonetheless. Whether it be active duty or reserve, I think we have to keep in mind that the prime function of the military is to protect and defend the interests of the United States, at home and abroad. I just looked over the Army Reserve web site, and believe it or not, I found NOTHING that guaranteed you could go to college full time on the government's dime AND never have to leave your home AND never be called to military action. What I did find, is this statement, and many like it:
"As a Soldier in the Army Reserve, part of your job is to defend our country and uphold our freedoms. World events may create a need for you to be called into Active Duty.
In support of Operations Iraqi Freedom, Noble Eagle and Enduring Freedom, Army Reserve Soldiers have been activated and deployed throughout the United States and overseas."
I admit, there are recruiters out there who lie, either blatantly or covertly. Joining the military is a contract, and as with any contract, you should rely only on what you see in writing and make sure you understand it before you sign it. In fact, enlistment contracts contain a disclaimer that states specifically any promises made not covered in the contract are not valid.
I am not without compassion for the men and women who have to say goodbye to their loved ones and leave the relative calm of their everyday lives to go in harm's way. I did it for 20 years and I can honestly say it never got any easier. However, these young men and women were NOT drafted. They volunteered of their own free will to enter into their contract of enlistment.
The military does offer many opportunitites, for travel, education, employment, etc. It also requires many painful sacrifices. It is obviously NOT for everyone. If you are the kind of person that makes career decisions based solely on a TV commercial, I respectfully submit that the military may not be for you.