What I tell my black grandchildren about the cad who shouted a lie at the president.
What does it do to my black grandchildren when they watch television and see mobs of threatening white people supporting a South Carolina congressman who shouted “You lie” at the biracial president of the United States in a Joint Session of Congress viewed all over the world? How does it affect them to see guns brought to speeches given by the president? How puzzling it must be for them to hear some white people say they want their country back – from whom? I know what to tell them. Hold steady and keep the faith is what I tell my grandchildren and I bring perspective to the current white hysteria. Things were much worse 50 years ago for black people in America. Fifty years ago a far larger percentage of white Americans expressed anti-black sentiments in far more direct and violent ways.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Christopher Rose
Baronius: have you finally gone completely bonkers or just lost the ability to understand English?
If there is any twisted thinking going on here, it certainly isn't his...
27 - zingzing
jesus christ, baronius... just look at what you wrote.
28 - Baronius
"That's the problem, as far as I [Cindy takes another cheap shot, this time in brackets] can tell."
Cindy, if I could imagine his life accurately, it wouldn't change the fact that he's become infected by the disease he's spent his life fighting.
29 - Dr Dreadful
I did see something on ThinkProgress yesterday which was a series of links to photos of 'hostile, racist' anti-Obama protestors. I clicked on each of them. Most assuredly they were hostile; vicious, even. Some were demented. But - with the exception of the 'Joker' poster/T-shirt - I couldn't see how by any stretch of the imagination the signs they were holding could be construed as racist. Perhaps they're alluding to some subtlety of civil rights history that I'm unaware of. IMO the left isn't doing its credibility any favours by playing the race card in that way.
But neither are you, Baronius, if you sincerely expect us to believe, as you apparently do, that none - absolutely none - of the conservative opposition to the President is racially motivated.
C'm on. Meet me in the middle here.
30 - Clavos
C'm on. Meet me in the middle here.
Isn't that where the quagmire is?
31 - Baronius
Dread, I'm going by this rule: if something focuses inordinately on race, it's racist; if it doesn't, it's not. I've heard Glenn Beck or Michael Savage (I always get those two confused) say things that I consider racist. That's why I don't listen to whichever one it is.
Yes, I recognize that racism exists. As I've said before, it's no longer respectable, so I don't see it as a signficant force. The one occasion in which racism is respectable is in comments like Horace's, which is why I react to it so negatively. Horace's racism originates from his decency.
I'll add this. If you want to reinvigorate white anti-black racism, you'll have to take away the shame that's associated with it. One way of doing that is by tossing around the accusation so much that it loses all meaning. I personally don't care if I'm called a racist. Fortunately, I'm not a racist. We're creating a situation in which the guy who opposes UHC, wants lower taxes, and hates blacks doesn't care if he's called a racist. That's dangerous.
32 - Dr Dreadful
Dread, I'm going by this rule: if something focuses inordinately on race, it's racist; if it doesn't, it's not.
Baronius, if Horace were a 20-year-old college student your rule of thumb might have some validity.
But you haven't adequately explained how the evidence before you - an optimistic article which draws a favourable comparison between the racial landscape the author's grandchildren see today and the one he experienced in his pre-civil-rights-revolution youth - enables you to diagnose Horace as a racist.
33 - Ruvy
Horace,
I was looking for the appropriate comment to this very well written article. First of all, those who criticize you for seeing things through eyes of race have not walked through the hatred you have, and have not suffered the bigotry and ingratitude you have. I wish I could be as restrained in my writing as you are.
Your article reflects the grace and intelligence of a man who knows how to write, and has a reason to. And in all truth, I'm sincerely glad that Americans could see past melanin to elect a man of mixed race whom most perceive as a black man. I sincerely regret (for your sakes, not mine) that Barak Obama was that man. Your nation will suffer for its choice - though it can be argued that it didn't really have a choice in 2008.
Having said that, I ask you to look at the other side of the issues, and read the article of a woman who has gone from one side of the ideological spectrum to the other, and like you, writes with grace, intelligence and maturity. The article covers a very large demonstration in DC that the mass media tried to down-play and this woman's experience at it.
34 - zingzing
ruvy: "The article covers a very large demonstration in DC that the mass media tried to down-play and this woman's experience at it."
it was front page news everywhere, ruvy. mark williams was on cnn yesterday (or maybe the day before).
35 - Glenn Contrarian
Ruvy -
To back up what zing pointed out, the demonstration was front-page news on the NYT, too (never mind that years ago, a FAR larger anti-war demonstration was relegated to page 8 underneath a 'Viagra' ad).
The oh-so-far-left MSM meme...is simply that: a meme. All you have to do is to look at all the brouhaha by ALL the networks about Obama and 'Reverend' Wright during the election...and how little attention McCain and 'Reverends' Hagee and Parsley got, even though their preaching was every bit as (and perhaps more) ridiculous as Wright's.
The left-wing MSM is a strawman, Ruvy - and the Republicans and conservatives have done a masterful job of making it seem that way.
36 - Glenn Contrarian
Baronius -
You don't think racism has a great deal to do with the Rabid Right?
Then tell me: can you envision this level of hatred and blatantly false accusations against, say, a President Gore? Or a President Kerry?
37 - Baronius
Dread, I don't see this article as optimistic at all. It assigns racial motives to those who disagree with the president. It jumps from comparisons with monkeys to disagreements about stimulus spending, as if each is an equally racist proposition. It smears the contemporary South for its parents' sins. Its utopian vision is of a world without racism - but the good races will have the numbers, just in case.
38 - Doug Hunter
"Then tell me: can you envision this level of hatred and blatantly false accusations against, say, a President Gore? Or a President Kerry?"
Yes, against president Bush by your kind. Obviously, you're blind to that fact though for reasons we've covered before. When those lies were being tossed around and the hatred palpable you would certainly think it justified, just like those folks at the tea parties and republican members of government do now.
39 - Dr Dreadful
Dread, I don't see this article as optimistic at all.
Really? It's entitled 'This Too Shall Pass'. It contains, among others, the following statements:
"Many black people and some white people of good will died during the Southern white rage of the civil rights period. That could never happen today, I tell my grand children, there are far many more whites of good will in the South than there were in those days."
"I tell my 8- and 10-year-old granddaughters who are also cousins that they are in a generation who will grow into lives of total equality with their white contemporaries."
"Will the mostly white Southern rejection of a black president lead to a race war in America? Even though Wal-Mart is out of ammo, I don’t think so."
It assigns racial motives to those who disagree with the president.
The article is from the perspective of a South Carolinian and reflects Horace's observations as regards his white Southern neighbours. Are you seriously going to tell me that they have completely cast off the shackles of history and are, to a voter, absolutely happy with the notion of a black president?
I've already said that while I think a lot of the anti-Obama protestors are totally tonto - and so were the most virulent of the anti-Bush ones, BTW - I don't see racism in most of their placards. A few, but not most.
That doesn't make Horace implausible.
40 - Clavos
can you envision this level of hatred...against, say, a President Gore? Or a President Kerry?
At least as much from me. If not more -- particularly for that slimebag asshole, Kerry.
41 - Ruvy
Glenn,
I don't buy the garbage that the media is far left - or right. They are far corporate, and what has happened in the last few months in the States is the virtual merging of the government with the corporations - fascism in other words.
The main stream media are now mere ministries of propaganda for whatever clown sits in the White House. And the little guy gets screwed royally - and has a royal pain in the ass as a result.
42 - El Bicho
"I've argued more than once that Reagan deserves the credit for winning the final victory in the Cold War"
Doesn't matter how many times you argue, Reagan doesn't deserve the credit alone
43 - Horace Mungin
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please lower your voices, else truth shall take flight. All I wish is that one day we shall All arrive upon the wings of a same spirit.
Baronius, I'd love to have lunch with you one day so you could see for yourself that I'm a loving and compassionate person. I'm traveling the rest of this month - where are you - I hope near somewhere I'll be this month. You can email me your location and if I'm near there during any of my travels I'll buy you lunch.
44 - zingzing
"the virtual merging of the government with the corporations - fascism in other words."
that's more communism than it is fascism (although fascism, for all its hatred of communism*, does follow a similar economic path), and there are a lot of things about fascism that aren't in your definition. besides, that's not what is going on here. the gov't has little to no power over those corporations that it lent money to. and what does "virtual" mean in your sentence?
"The main stream media are now mere ministries of propaganda for whatever clown sits in the White House."
i'm pretty sure that you were saying that obama had the msm in his pocket (but not all of the msm) looooong before this little theory of a propaganda ministry popped into your brain. a good portion of the msm liked obama long before he took office (and you complained about THAT then,) and have not only discussed his short-comings, but also give voice to his competition.
long after obama is out of office (be that in 3 and 1/2 or 7 and 1/2 years... or assassination...), the media will still either like or dislike the current administration. they aren't propoganda. that's just silly talk.
really, if the msm was a propaganda ministry, would it look like this? would fox be allowed to exist? would papers around the nation be able to have their own editorial pages without government control? would you be able to write on a u.s. website from israel? would i be able to say "fuck obama," no matter how i mean it, without fear of repercussion? (i have no fear of repercussion. and neither do you when you say such things.)
*hey! something conservatives and fascists can agree on!
45 - Cindy
Bar,
I apologize. You've told me that before and yet I managed to disregard it again.
(Hopefully, it'll sink in soon.)
A reiteration of what I see as the problem.
If I come from a different place in the world, with different experiences. In order to see what someone else is saying I would have to do the work of putting myself in his place. And it would take work--be a real struggle. It would mean an embarkation into another person's reality. An immersion in it. Until I could see anything close to the world they see.
So, it's not that you can't.
46 - Baronius
Horace, I suspect that you're the nicest guy in the world.
47 - roger nowosielski
Right on, Cindy. I don't want to offend my friend Baronius, but I don't think there's a racist bone in Horace's body. It's not pity that he inspires but precisely the opposite - a kind of envy (at least insofar as I'm concerned) about the richness of his experience. It's that kind of background that, given talent and hard work, can make one into a great American writer. Which he is.
48 - roger nowosielski
Cindy: that was in response to your #25.
49 - roger nowosielski
"Horace's racism originates from his decency."
That's the darnedest statement that I've ever heard. Would someone other than Baronius explain it to me!
50 - Cindy
(Hey there Roger. :-) hope class is going well.)
51 - Jordan Richardson
Baronius continues to raise the "point" that racism is no longer respectable (I think in another location he used the word "legitimate") as though that somehow diminishes its effect on those who feel it. That is, honestly, some of the strangest thinking I've ever witnessed.
52 - roger nowosielski
I'll make it, but I feel as deficient, defective and stupid like . . . Brand new language, brand new terminology, totally different way of thinking from the way I'm used to. I'm quite facile at processing and dealing with abstract ideas - that's what my training has been all about - but when it comes to "engineering," I'm a total incompetent. But I shall overcome.
53 - roger nowosielski
Exactly. Like "no longer being respectable" is supposed to work as though it countermanded reality.
Strange thinking indeed.
54 - zingzing
baronius: "Horace's racism originates from his decency."
that reminds me of the time that my pseudo-girlfriend caught me sleeping with another woman and, during the ensuing argument, i yelled out "DON'T JUDGE ME FOR THE THINGS I DO!"
to this day, i have no fucking clue what that was supposed to mean.
55 - roger nowosielski
Yet you said it.
So are we dealing here with a strange case of Baronius's blurt?
56 - Akil
Horace,
First of all I enjoyed your article.
I usually listen to public radio whenever I pick my oldest son up from daycare. While no banter about the economy, or public options, or Kanye did what, will break his focus on kicking the back of my chair; whenever the broadcaster mentions "The President..." like clockwork my two year old fills in the blank with "OOOBAMAA!"
My earliest political memories where of President Reagan. Both of my boys will grow up in an America where having a black man as president is just the way things have always been.
The Congressman's outbursts create an opportunity to reflect on what the office of president should mean. Many Americans thought is was just the funniest thing that an Iraqi journalist hurled his shoes at one of OUR president.
I fought in Iraq and lost friends in that country because President Bush empowered ideologues to make decisions about the lives of other people children, while ignoring the advice of those in his administration who'd actually served. But he was still OUR President.
I respect and admire President Obama for a host of reasons. But none of those reasons are why I see little distinction between Congressman Wilson's outburst and the shoe hurling incident. Our condemnations of the congressman ring hollow if the presidency is to be respected only when we share warm personal feelings for the person filling the office.
57 - El Bicho
In Baronius' world, gumdrops grow on trees, it's summer vacation every day, and white people inform others if they are experiencing racism.
58 - Glenn Contrarian
Doug -
You know, I'm getting real tired of your pretensions. The sheer hatred foisted in Obama's direction is far beyond anything any other American president has faced - period. You'll claim otherwise...but your postings evince your lack of objectivity.
For the life of me, I don't remember seeing any accusations of Bush being Muslim, or Bush "pallin' around" with terrorists, or Bush being accused of not being born in America...
...and I must wonder what the oh-so-patriotic Right Wing would be saying if:
- The media noted that former President Obama attended an investment meeting at the Washington, D.C. Ritz-Carlton hotel on September 10, 2001 and in particular a meeting with Shafiq bin Laden, representing joint interests of the Saudi Binladin Group and Carlyle; or
- The Obama family had had strong relations with the Saudi royal family since before WWI; or
- Obama's grandfather had supported the Nazi party; or
- British intelligence leaked a document that said, "Obama wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."; or
- Obama wrote an executive signing statement that allowed him to declare a state of emergency and essentially run the country by fiat; or
- Obama joked, "Things would be a lot easier in a dictatorship, so long as I'm the dictator."
If Obama did any one of those things, we'd be looking at civil disruption by the right wing on a national scale...and I think you know that.
BUT since all these were just the oh-so-All-American Bush family, well, THAT's okay in the eyes of conservative America!
59 - zingzing
glenn, that was masterful. but somehow, i get this feeling that the right wing around here can deny it...
where's dave been these last few days?
60 - roger nowosielski
"If Obama did any one of those things, we'd be looking at civil disruption by the right wing on a national scale..."
But we ARE looking at it. And Mr. Hunter, one of the most sensible of the bunch, is a perfect example.
61 - Doug Hunter
It's the same crap with Bush and Obama. One was friends with the Sauds, the other Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright. One was 'AWOL' the other wasn't born in the US. Both look to expand the powers of the federal government and spend like drunken sailors. Bush had to deal with 9/11, Katrina, and economic downcycles bookending his administration. Obama only has the recession so far, he should consider himself lucky.
The only real difference is your crush on Obama. You get all thin skinned and sentimental because it's your little buddy in office. Tough shit, grow a pair and get over it. You want to spread hate on Bush but exempt you messiah. There are plenty that want to spread it the other way and they're just as ignorant and obstinate as those on your side. Get used to it.
62 - zingzing
if it's the same crap (not that it is), where was the right wing then? the only real difference was your crush on bush. and don't give me any crap about "we were there," when you clearly were not.
63 - Clavos
Actually they are mirror images:
The left wing beat up on the right winger Bush, and now the right wing is beating up on the left winger Obama.
It's a grand old amerikan tradition...
64 - Doug Hunter
"But we ARE looking at it. And Mr. Hunter, one of the most sensible of the bunch, is a perfect example."
What have I ever disrupted except a liberal lovefest? At least I restrict my rantings to responses in the comment section. Glenn has the Realists of the world on his side writing much hasher invective several pages in length every other day during the Bush administration (and continuing on against Obama for not going far enough now of course). I realize he can't understand that because he felt his side was 'speaking truth to power!' while everyone who disagrees now is a delusional idiot. Strangely, those tea party members and healthcare protesters are under the same spell only in reverse.
I know you're not a delusional idiot. We differ because we have different (although not as much as you would think) value systems. I take a bit more liberty and self determination and you favor more interconnected compassion. From that point we can have a rational discussion of issues and likely come to a reasonable compromise.
To Glenn's of the world who won't take that first step and admit that the other side isn't wrong, just different, I have nothing nice to say. I will stoop to that level. When he starts treating the ideas of freedom and liberty as concepts, instead of a disease that the cause must be found and eradicated, then we can have a fine adult discussion.
65 - Doug Hunter
"where was the right wing then?"
Doing the same crap you guys are now. Calling for civility and decorum. Asking people to honor the office and look at the issues from a different perspective. Same shit in reverse.
66 - Cobra
Horace,
I thoroughly enjoyed your piece. You have a flair for writing that speaks to me on a personal level. My mother is 83 years old. I visit her very often now. She grew up in Virginia, and lived almost half of her life under Jim Crow, but she has a loving spirit, and a congeniality that I recognize in your work.
Like you, she would invite people over for Sunday dinner, who fifty years ago, would've had her drinking from a separate fountain.
So what's going on here?
I think what happens in America today is that since we have over 300 Million people, you can narrow-cast and niche market yourself rich through "extremist enterprising."
If you can find 1/10th of 1% of the population to agree with whatever extreme position you have, you can make a decent living. Up that figure a few clicks, and you can become a media cult of personality.
That's the theory of the long tail. If you can make millions on the lunatic fringe, why bother even trying to be reasonable?
--Cobra
67 - Glenn Contrarian
Doug -
"To Glenn's of the world who won't take that first step and admit that the other side isn't wrong, just different, I have nothing nice to say.
Have I personally insulted you? No. Have you personally insulted me? Remember our 'moral superiority' discussion? Yes, you have insulted me...and I have yet to return your personal insult with one of my own.
So don't give me this claptrap about you 'stooping down' to my level.
FYI, why don't you peruse ALL of my writings and see if you can find (on this or any other forum, political or religious) ANY SINGLE INSTANCE of me personally insulting someone?
No, you won't - because you choose to ASSUME the worst of me.
Doug, I have shown you provable facts and provable numbers...and you (like most conservatives here on BC) are flatly refusing to answer with provable facts and provable numbers.
One more thing - your idea that I treat "freedom and liberty...as a disease", when have I EVER, even ONCE made a statement ANYWHERE CLOSE to that?
I haven't - but you, who wants to believe the worst of someone who's willing and able to stand up to you, can't believe that I might actually be a patriot.
You have falsely accused me. Either have the determination to prove your accusation using the words that I have posted...or have the courage to apologize for making a false accusation.
You can't do one...and I strongly suspect you won't allow yourself to do the other. That's why you insult me and falsely accuse me. You see, insults are a common resort for the weak or insecure. I am neither, and so I do not need to insult you.
Tell me, Doug - how much time have you spent in the military? This "freedom and liberty is a disease" 20-year military man would really like to know.
And one more thing - I used to be a Republican and still agree with at least two of their platform issues...but on the majority of the issues, their ideas (or refusal to accept ideas) are not good for America. THAT, sir, is why I post as I do. It is NOT the party...but it IS the issues that party supports or opposes.
But again - since you're obviously able to judge me as someone who thinks freedom and liberty is a disease...how long did you serve? Hm?
68 - zingzing
"Doing the same crap you guys are now. Calling for civility and decorum. Asking people to honor the office and look at the issues from a different perspective. Same shit in reverse."
of course, we didn't bring guns and pray for his death, but you know, whatever. do you think that makes your side's actions any better? look at glen's list of grievances. if obama did any of that, what would you say?
the left made a stink because he was dragging us into a bullshit war through lies, hoisting the patriot act on us, trying to make second class citizens of millions of people, writing executive statements that made him a dictator... come on. what the fuck is that?
what has obama done that even fucking compares? and yet you want to shoot his ass and bury him in the ground. or at least some of you do. and the rest of you just wouldn't go that far, but are perfectly willing to let someone else do it.
69 - Clavos
Mirrors...
70 - Glenn Contrarian
Clavos -
Mirrors indeed...and when viewed in the mirror the wrong way, the molehill of Obama's faults might indeed compare to a mountain comprised of an illegal war started on false pretenses, a Justice Department politicized for partisan gain, Katrina, and torture committed in the name of America.
Mirrors, indeed.
71 - zingzing
clavos: "Mirrors..."
life in a funhouse.
72 - roger nowosielski
An allusion to Lost in the Funhouse by
John Barth?
Try The End of the Road. You'll love it.
73 - hanjie song
Horace,
It seems Georgia Tech's best son has agreed with you.
74 - hanjie song
Doug-
I do agree the polarization of American politic has occurred, and the gap is arguably still widening. However, Bush is the biggest catalyst for the issue.
The public's outrage for Bush spawn out their disdains for his policies, not because he's a white man from Texas.
In contrast, most critics of the health care can not provide rational objections to it, they merely "want their America back."
Except "their America" was never as good as they would like to believe it to be.
75 - Clavos
Well, if Jimmy Carter says it's racism, it must be...