The Vietnam era taught us a lot. Whether we remember that knowledge on Tuesday, is a question that remains to be seen.
I touched on this very briefly in one of my posted called Thank You Mr. President.
In that post, I started to explain the problems that cost us a victory in the Vietnam War. I contended that the problem was that Lyndon Johnson was conflicted about the War in Vietnam. He did not support the war, but knew it was necessary in stopping the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. Furthering the problem, he surrounded himself with a diverse crowd of opinionated advisors.
George Ball, the undersecretary of State was against the escalation of the war in Vietnam. Robert McNamara, the Secretary of State was in favor. These are just snapshots of the administration here, and it was representative of the conflict within Johnson's soul.
There are a number of reasons why we lost the Vietnam War. Some of it had to do with civilians in government trying to play general, which led to poor execution.
But my humble opinion of the main reason we lost the war in Vietnam was the protestors. Protestors chipped away at the fighting spirit of our nation. It spread and became rampant.
This then effected Johnson, who ended up not seeking a second term. Nixon then won on a platform to get us out of Vietnam.
Also, there is evidence that North Vietnam supported and corroborated with the Peace Protestors:(Click to See Actual Document)
From Document:
I. The antiwar movements in the US are unpredictable. They have been widely developed from Washington DC and New York to other states. At the beginning, only a small number of people of the middle class, intellectuals, students, writers, artists, and religious people joined these movements, but now they have rallied a large number of people, including members of the Senate and House of Representatives, former ministers and ambassadors, ex-service men, repatriated soldiers, draftees, service men, and a portion of the working class. The majority of US workers were not politically aware because the US labor Unions (supporting the government) only motivated them to struggle for their own interests.
The spontaneous antiwar movements in the US have received assistance and guidance from the friendly ((VC/NVN)) delegations at the Paris Peace Talks. Of the US antiwar movements, the two most important ones are: The PCPJ ((the People's Committee for Peace and Justice)) and the NPAC ((National Peace Action Committee)). These two movements have gathered much strength and staged many demonstrations. The PCPJ is the most important. It maintains relations with us. Through its activities, we see that the PCPJ has made progress in its newly-adopted policy lines with the following strategic alteration:
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Jim Carruthers
It's a miracle!
Yes, it's a miracle this homunculus hasn't choked on his own vomit yet, or forgotten how to breathe.
I have to be sure to forward this to my Vietnamese neighbours, I'm sure they'll have something to say which can't be translated into english easily, but will be something like "me so angry, me hate you long time".
2 - Adam Bloom
How the hell do you still believe we can "win" this "war"?
We "lost" the Vietnam "war" because casualties racked up so high they started drafting MIDDLE-CLASS kids, and then, to the shock of the world, the MIDDLE-CLASS suddenly didn't like the war.
And um, North Vietnam supported the peace protestors? Um, duh, they sort of had a stake in the whole thing. You think any American soldiers might have supported the protestors?
3 - Mac Diva
It should be "are intertwined."
(Lord, the skills of some of these 'I'm superior' guys leave a lot of to be desired.)
4 - curt
art -
please, spare me.
don't pretend to know something about stuff that happened 15-20 years before you were born, and then try to lecture those of us who were around back then on what's right and wrong about what took place, ok?
i'm a vietnam era vet, i lost one cousin and one classmate over there, and i've interviewed and profiled dozens of local combat vets (ww2, korea, vietnam) for my column with my hometown newspaper. i don't pretend to know what war is about, because only the guys who've actually served in combat really know.
i can tell you this, art. that respect and credibility are earned through your actions - not demanded on a web site.
here's what i recommend: do more than rj elliott. after you get out of high school, enlist in the military and then volunteer to serve in combat in iraq. witness a buddy on your right get his head blown off, and another buddy to your left get gut shot and die an agonizing death with his intestines pouring out of stomach like spaghetti.
if you survive, then when you come back and want to pontificate what war is about...you'll be surprised how many more folks will take you seriously.
5 - Jim Carruthers
Art, never mind the Vietnamese people, trycoming up with one sensible reply to this guy from Detroit , then I'll think you have something to say. Go ahead, tell me something.
6 - Art Green
I love to tick you guys off.
7 - Jim Carruthers
Art, ticks do nothing but spread disease.
So, where's the pesticide?
8 - Art Green
I think I will turn this into a daily thing. That way I can get some good editing tips by discerning people that correct internet essays!
Plus, the best thing! I get the enjoyment of reading your gasp at the sight of a different viewpoint.
9 - Art Green
Nice punchline, Jim.
10 - Adam Bloom
Yes, we "gasp at the sight" of the viewpoint of 49% (or less, just basing this on four-year old numbers) of America, it's so completely and utterly shocking.
Have you ever responded to anyone ELSE's viewpoint? By any chance? Like we're doing to yours? Did ya notice that?
11 - Jim Carruthers
I was going to try and correct you, but realized that I would only being contributing to feeding an ignorant, blind, hateful, little twat.
So just go stick your wee head up your own commodious bunghole. Go talk with this guy.
12 - Art Green
Oh, you guys are so angry and tough.
13 - Mac Diva
Such a callow youth.
I would love to think the protesters ended an unjust war the U.S. should never have become involved in. But, I know that they can only take some of the credit. As historians such as Barbara Tuchman have made abundantly clear, the Vietnamese (yes, little yellow people who relied on pungee sticks instead of cluster bombs) ended the war by winning it. They kicked American and French arse. The U.S. could have become as mired in trying to control the Vietnamese as the French did, but it might still be there now. The lesson to be learned from Vietnam is that European and European-derived nations can no longer impose their will on Second and Third World countries to the extent they would like without paying a heavy price for doing so. I wouldn't be surprised if that lesson is learned anew as a result of the U.S. adventure in Iraq.
14 - Art Green
I did not ask questions if we should or should not have entered the war. I'm saying that the protestors broke our will to fight.
15 - Mac Diva
You haven't a clue what you are talking about, Art. Some advice: less writing and more reading. You can start with Tuchman's books. She is considered one of the best war historians ever. From there, I recommend Lewis Puller, Jr.'s Fortunate Son. Puller was the son of the most decorated Marine in history. He became back from Vietnam without both legs and much of his hands. Then Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July. He is a quadriplegic who was beat up by Right Wing thugs during a protest. Like Puller, he came from a Right Wing family and had his eyes opened in Vietnam. If you need a break from nonfiction, Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried and Going After Cacciato, will be on topic but works of the imagination. I'm sure other posters will have additional suggestions. Despite the proud to be know-nothings that sometimes dominate comments, there are some smart, well-read people around here.
16 - Art Green
If those books are about the merits of the war, I do not need to waste my time.
17 - Jim Carruthers
Gosh, 85, we've not missed you.
If you are so hella confident that things are just going peachie over in Iraq, why aren't you there?
All you've done is prove you're an asshat, and I expect your handlers are just making all sorts of signals which equate to "shut the fuck up".
But that's okay, because the more stupid you appear, the more likely it appears that the USA will go for the less horrid choice.
But then, I'm sure there are all sort of casual Bush voters just waiting for you to grasp them and say: "you'se my bestest pal 4eva!". So if you vote for Shrub, you get this lifetime tool. Bonus!
Ripley : What's this "eighty-five" thing?
18 - curt
art -
i didn't think you planned on putting your money where your mouth is. much safer staying home spouting war slogans while someone else pays the ultimate sacrifice over there, huh?
another rj elliott type (ie, right-wing chickenhawk cyber-patriot).
19 - Mac Diva
Art, reading good books is not wasting time.
20 - Art Green
Well, I'm in a military family. Grandfather served in WWII in the Navy. Great-uncle died in WWII when his ship was sank. Dad was in Vietnam and was totally and permanately disabled from the war. Two uncles who had tours of duty in Vietnam.
I'm 17 right now. Turn 18 on June 25th, 2005. If I told you I would be joining the military, it would be a waste of time. It's not like you cynics would believe anything I say anyways.
21 - Victor Plenty
Art, why insult the American military this way? It's really quite shocking for you to suggest that the highly trained officer corps or the heavily armed front line soldiers of the United States Armed Forces would let their will to fight be sapped by anything as paltry as a few protests back home.
Anybody who has taken a basic civics course can tell you that the freedom to protest is one of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed in the very Constitution our military is sworn to defend and uphold. Many, many articulate combat veterans have stated that they fought precisely so that people back home would continue to enjoy such freedoms.
But now you tell us that the American military is irresolute. You say our veterans failed to fulfill their mission in Vietnam because people protested against that war. You say our soldiers now on the ground will fail to fulfill their mission in Iraq if people continue to protest against this war. You say our soldiers will fail to fulfill their mission if people vote differently from the way you think they should vote.
Well, Art, I have to tell you, I think more highly of our soldiers than that. I believe their will to fight will not be undermined by the blathering of loudmouthed civilians like you. They will continue to defend your freedom to insult them.
But let me give you a little advice. Be careful how you phrase your theories if you're around some veterans who have been drinking. They might get angry enough to forget you have an inalienable right to insult them.
22 - Jim Carruthers
Art, I can tell you the last thing professional military personnel want to be near is brain-dead cannon fodder like you.
You are what gets real soldiers and sailors killed because you're stupid and you've swallowed too much stupid propaganda.
But you don't have to worry about enlisting, because if Shrub gets back in, you'll just be drafted.
The current US war machine isn't about professionals, just bodies.
23 - Art Green
I'm not insulting the troops. I'm saying that people in the Vietnam War spat at the soldiers in uniform. They called them baby killers, etc.
Now, the Iraq War has not even came close to Vietnam in terms of controversy. I think the protestors right now are being fairly respectful. But what is to say they will step back into their old chants and tactics?
Protests are intended solely to end the war. I'm not questioning their right to protest. I'm questioning the intelligence of doing it.
It sends a perception to the troops that our country is not behind them. We don't support what you are doing, but we support you? That is what protestors are saying, basically.
Most Vietnam Veterans will tell you, and I believe them, that they did not lose the war in Vietnam. They just left.
Do you really believe electing a President that does not believe in the mission in Iraq is going to actually help these troops to win the war he does not believe in?
Is John Kerry going to win a war he would not fund? Is John Kerry going to win a war that was a diversion? Is he going to bring allies for the wrong war?
Our soldiers can we win the War in Iraq, but we need to stand united in the goal of winning this war. Instead of sniping about the ones we have lost, why don't we focus on finishing the job right?
Underminded by me? At least I'm someone who supports their cause? Do you actually believe they think you think more highly of them?
Is it because soldiers 3 to 1 support the President that makes you come to the conclusion that I'm degnigrating the troops? Is it because Iraq War Vets and currently serving in Iraq are scared of a Kerry Presidency?
They will continue the fight because they believe in this President and they believe that the Republican Party will give them the tools to victory..not someone who claims to support the troops but not the cause they are fighting in.
Let me give YOU some advice. Do not preach to about supporting the troops when you pray they fail. You pray their blood in spilled so that the American people's spirit is sunk and they will elect John Kerry.
Don't deny it. What is bad for America is good for John Kerry's talking points. They, predictably celebrated when the 1,000th soldier died so they can talk about the great milestone on the campaign trail.
Don't preach to me about supporting our troops. Don't even cross that line. Your boy abandoned our troops as a young man, and he will abandon our troops as President.
24 - Art Green
Jim:
In the words of Teresa Heinz-Kerry: Shove it, you Neanderthal scumbag.
No, Jim... you and people like you get people killed in the name of peace. WWII could have been avoided if Neville Chamberlain grew a pair and crushed Hitler when he was weak.
Tens of millions of people were killed in the name of peace. Peace is a great thought. I wish we had peace. I wish there was no war. I wish there was not evil in this world. But the fact is there is, Jim. There is. And if you cannot own up to the fact that inaction kills, you are the one that is brain dead.. not I.
25 - Jim Carruthers
Art, since I have tattoos older than you, and spent years in the Royal Canadian Navy, and know four ways to kill you, one involving salmon mousse, kindly suck my crusty arse.