Well, I've tried to avoid it, but the Veil Controversy has refused to die down. It all started when Jack Straw, ex-Foreign Secretary and Labour MP for Blackburn where roughly 26% of his constituents are Muslim, wrote a column on Thursday for the Lancashire
'I felt uncomfortable about talking to someone “face-to-face” who I could not see.So I decided that I wouldn’t just sit there the next time a lady turned up to see me in a full veil, and I haven’t.
Now, I always ensure that a female member of my staff is with me.
I explain that this is a country built on freedoms. I defend absolutely the right of any woman to wear a headscarf.
As for the full veil, wearing it breaks no laws.
I go on to say that I think, however, that the conversation would be of greater value if the lady took the covering from her face.'
Why would it make Straw 'uncomfortable' to speak to a veiled woman? Presumably he doesn't feel 'uncomfortable' speaking to someone over the phone, or by email. Still, Straw thinks there is a bigger 'issue' here, namely:
'my concern that wearing the full veil was bound to make better, positive relations between the two communities more difficult.
It was such a visible statement of separation and of difference.'
Here is the real issue - Straw is arguing that wearing the veil makes living in a multi-cultural society harder, because it is a 'visible statement' of 'separation' and 'difference'. This is the real issue because, quite frankly, who cares what does or does not make Jack Straw feel uncomfortable? In any event, as Mike Marqusee quite correctly points out,
'Like Jack Straw, I find it awkward to talk with women who veil their faces. Unlike Jack Straw, I don't assume that the onus is on them to relieve me of my discomfort, or that this discomfort is inevitable and entrenched, or that it betokens an unbridgeable cultural gap or irreconcilable social difference'
Now, the multi-culturalism point is more worthy of discussion. Britain is a multi-cultural society, and we have many laws in place to protect racial and religious minorities. The goal of a multi-cultural society, essentially, is to have people of many different cultures, races and religions living together harmoniously. This is an admirable goal, and one we should all work towards.
So - does wearing a veil make multi-culturalism more difficult? Does it stoke racial tensions? Is it anti-social? Is it right to ask Muslim women to remove their veils?
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Darleen
The freedom to engage in a particular behavior does not preclude the ability of others to judge whether that behavior is good/bad/appropriate/moral/immoral.
The "choice" to wear the veil or burka in Western society is wrong. Period.
This has nothing to do with "Islamophobia", but with the sloppy "progressive" thinking that stops all discussion with the line "we must be tolerant and respectful of other cultures."
No, we don't.
Western Civilization has an expression when we talk about people who have behaved in an dishonorable manner "s/he should be ashamed! s/he should never show their face in decent company again!"
The veil is a public symbol of humiliation. It is demeaning. That a female chooses to publicly demean herself doesn't lessen that humiliation. Westerners are not "uncomfortable" because of the difference, but because they are so accustomed to women as autonomous beings competing equally with men to be faced with such an obvious proclamation of unworthiness creates a feeling of embarrassment on the observers part.
This isn't a headscarf or wearing long sleeves or other modest clothing. This is a public statement that a woman is so shamefully different from a man she has to hide her face in public. If the veil was such a wonderful statement of piety, then Muslim men should be hiding their face in public too.
I'm only sorry that some Westerners have been so cowed by multi-culturalist chic they have to frame their arguments in gooey "I feel uncomforable" rather than being forthright in declaring "This is a bad idea because ..."
A female may choose genital mutilation on "cultural" grounds... does that mean we cannot have an opinion that such choice is wrong?
2 - Binny
Wow! absolutely amazing article. Probably the best atricle i've found browsing on the web, trying to understand the pros and cons of this debate. You make so much sense. I'll buy it.
Congrats! you've earned my utmost respect!
3 - roxsana
Are women permitted to go unveiled in public in Saudia Arabia? No. Why not? Because it is contrary to religious belief there. My belief here in the UK is quite clear that it is wrong for either sex to conceal their face in personal dealings.
Whose faith is right? In Saudi Arabia, presumably as the state religion, Islam takes precedence. In the UK, the official religion is Christianity. Therefore if I as a Christian ask a Moslem woman to respect my beliefs and remove her veil while we talk, should she not do so?
Or do Moslems in the UK actually believe that their religion is superior and the rest of us should make all the concessions they demand while they make none? This is not just dismissive of our religion but also rude and offensive on a personal level.
4 - Vanessa
First of all Roxana, your requirements of dealing with an unvieled woman rather than a veiled one has nothing to do with your christian beliefs (please point me to the bible where it does say that people, when they deal with each other have to be able to see each other's faces) but more to do with what you're personally comfortable with. So really there's no question about respecting your religious beliefs.
Instead of debating endlessly on a "veil" - why not educate ourselves on why these women wear it, and just respect them for the choice they've made. They do it as part of their religious beliefs... let's learn about it and tolerate that. Maybe it's time to look at them in a different way, without hate and fearfulness. Because, as much as we'd all like to criticise them for the way their dress make the 'greater society' feel, it's not a very easy thing for them to do in a western society like ours.
And for all you veiled women out there - reach out to your 'non-veiled' colleagues, neighbours, friends... heck, stop people in the street if you can and educate them about why you really wear the veil and explain to them that you are not here to intimidate or frighten them. Let them know that you have made a few life choices, important to you and why you feel they should respect you for it. Let's not make the veil a taboo subject. Discuss it openly - you have nothing to be ashamed about.
This is a sad reality of it all - anything new and alien will always be intimdating. So, let's educate!
5 - Johney
I do respect the decision of Muslim women to wear the Viel. But I agree with Jack Straw in one thing that it will be more comfortable talking to somebody face to face rather than talking to a face covered in veil.
I do not want to mix up religion or faith with this controversy. It is just easy to talk to someone face to face. And as a non-expert in Muslim religion, I do not know the significance of the Veil for muslim women. But one thing is for sure, it is making them a separate group and is causing discomfort among normal people while interacting with Veiled women.
Pakistan's Ex- Prime minister was a lady and was a very educated Muslim women. I have not seen her in veil in any international meetings.
So I do not think veil has anything to do with Muslim religion; it is more showing the culture in which most Muslim women was brought up.
It is 21st century and I think, it is time for change. Even though it(Veil) might be interpreted as created for protecting women, I believe in today's world , society is giving enough protection for women, whether they belong to Muslim or any other religion and in today's situtaion, the viel is mostly unnecessary.
But I am against Jack Straw's idea of not allowing Muslim women in veil to his office. We should empower Muslim women and they should be given assurances of freedom and they, like the pakistann Ex-Prime minister, will one day come out of the Veil.
Regards,
Johney
6 - anila
I'm a non white muslim woman and I'm appauled by the increase in the use of the veil by young muslim women. it is a political statement, a way of spitting in the face of this country and it's history. anybody who has the slightest understanding of what women have done here to gain the rights and representation that we have should be correctly annoyed by this adolescent and ignorant display of childishness.
The comments about the telephone and the wearing of dark glasses completely miss the point that we know and accept things about the people we are communicating with in this way you don't talk to a cold caller in the same way as you address your mother do you?
You are foolish to see it for anything more than this and you are helping discredit islam by giving head to this pathetic story.
Look at the way the media is running with this. it's only a very few muslim women who do this, and it is generally at the behest of men.
Anyone who says this is not the case has precious little understanding of Islam and islamic communities.
7 - Bliffle
"it is true that non-Muslims in Britain are often intimidated or made uncomfortable by a veiled woman, but the problem lies with them, not the veiled woman."
Nonsense. Muslims are trying to impose their peculiar customs, one at a time, on western society. Next we will hear that muslim policemen in London refuse to stand guard duty at the Israeli, or any other, embassy or institution.
8 - anon
Islamophobia??
Islamophobia was launched in 1996 by a self-proclaimed "Commission on British Muslims and Islamophobia." The word literally means "undue fear of Islam" but today it is used to mean "prejudice against Muslims", with this dramatic perversion of the meaning: ment to do one thing,isolate people with questions, fears, disbelief in islam, and put them all under one roof....."Muslim Haters". Today we are being blackmailed by Islamophobia, just look at what happens when someone speaks out about his/her beliefs on the veil: utter condemnation from all sides, or when someone draws an image of there prophet, the side of islam which we including most muslim groups fear, apears and marches in our capital city burning crosses and flags and carrying signs reading "death to all those who oppose Islam"...do all the Non-muslims have a reason to fear islam...Yes we do.
British Muslims now have Sharia in areas of finance and mortgages; halal food in schools, hospitals and prisons; faith schools funded by the state; prayer rooms in every police station in London; and much more. This process has been assisted by the British government through its philosophy of multiculturalism, which has allowed some Muslims create a state within a state in the UK. even if you are a staunch christian or a blatent athiest you have to admit that the equal rights advocated by our government is nothing more than one sided, and its has been all the Islamophobics, in the true meaning of the word who have been handed the dirty end of the stick.
9 - Stan
I live in a country where strict laws exist to prevent racial vilification of anyone ... but I don't think it applies to the English. I am of the understanding that not vilifying them can lead to many forms of social ostracism and may also constitute social suicide.
When speaking to a Pom, most native-born people find it neccessary to avert their eyes from the lilywhite skin, and we'd much rather they got a suntan as soon as they arrived; learned that heaven is cold beer and warm pies, not the other way around; rugby is played by 15 men not 10; cricket is a life-or-death obsession not a genteel summer pastime, and that it's OK to make small talk about more than the weather.
Still, it's their right to be the way they are, whether we like it or not. And most assimilate, kind of, eventually.
However, the one thing I'll never forgive them for is stealing the corner of our flag and using it as their own. Bastards.
10 - Nancy
Veils were originally supposed to shield men (not women) from the "temptation" of seeing women's faces. Alas, most of the muslim women I've seen are pretty homely by anyone's standards, and looking one full in the face is hardly going to inspire the impetus to rape & ravishment in ANY male.
Currently the canard is that it preserves the modesty of a woman - which is utter bullshit, a half-assed excuse for ensuring male dominance by imposing its symbol, the veil/burqa, on women to remind them they are nothing more than chattel & second class citizens.
This may be the law & custom in the arab/muslim states, but it isn't in Britain or the US or any other western nation. Westerners try for the most part to respect customs of the middle eastern nations; middle easterners can damn well start to respect the customs & laws of the western countries they migrate to - and that includes dropping the veil/burqa as well as adhering to western notions of law & order, and not the barbarism that reigns back in the pissholes they come from. If they love the old eastern customs so much, they should go back to where they started. They should NOT be expecting the west & everyone in it to conform to them, nor should any westerners or their countries or governments do so.
As for Islamophobia, I can't think of a better religion to be phobic of. From the inception, muslims have proven over & over again that theirs is no religion of peace or equity, but a religion of oppression, violence, and double talk. It sure as hell isn't fundamentalist Zen Buddhists or Jains or Amish out there bombing, cutting off heads, & ramming airplanes into buildings; it's MUSLIMS, and nobody else.
11 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
"the one thing I'll never forgive them for is stealing the corner of our flag and using it as their own. Bastards.
I'm with you on that, Stan. But you Aussies do sound more British than the Average Canadian does. And if you want to seriously run the Brits down, you guys need to learn to write "favorite" instead of "favourite," and say "zee" instead of "zed"...
To stick to the topic here and not to trip up on one's veil, I want to note that the identifiably Moslem women who have commented here do not like this business with the veil. Hmmm...
Where I live, religious women cover their hair. This is true of both Moslems and Jews. This is done on the grounds of modesty as dictated by the standards of the two faiths. Speaking as a police volunteer respnsible for the security of the citizens around me in a country where a head covering could easily hide a bomb or detonating device, I would never ask either a Jewish or Moslem woman to uncover her hair for me if there were a female soldier who could do it instead.
On my list of priorities, and any rabbi would agree with me, saving a life comes far above sparing modesty. I have the feeling that if the Moslem women here were asked (or forced?) to wear a veil, the men would suffer and the women would tell them to go a somewhat hotter abode...
Noting as I do that the identifiably Moslem women here do not seem to think that a veil confers "freedom" as it were, what has me curious is why the Heathlander, who, to my knowledge, is not a Moslem or a believer of any variety, undertakes its vehement defense? I wonder if he would like to add the practice of female genital mutilation to his causes celèbre under the rubric of "celebrating differences in a multicultural society"?
12 - A_Name
Islamophobia is perfectly warranted.
See also: London, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, etc etc
13 - Adam
You make no mention of the security issue. If I walked down the street with my face masked in this way I would be stopped by the police. Why should others be treated differently, particularly against a background of extremist terrorism which might be a motivation to conceal identity?
14 - p-air
That's a tough and rational line you've drawn and defended appropriately. Frankly I have to agree w/you in general. My concern however, is that to the extent that you disregard what those fm Islamic societies have to say about the veil's representation, then you may be going to far in defending those women who wear it in secular society. Their wearing of the veil could indeed come not fm simple social pressure but fm fear and we would need to get to the root of that issue too. If they fear those members of their community who might harm or extradite them fm the group, that too would be wrong and cause for taking action. Agreed that this should have nothing to do w/Mr. Straw's discomfort, but we also can't ignore the possibility that irrational behavior can come from the veiled women's side as much as fm those in secular worlds, and so we need to become more sensitive to the meaning carried by wearing of a veil (not just assume that it's a purely religious observation), much like we are now sensitized by the meaning behind the wearing of a "swaztika".
15 - Muhammad Sheth
Mr.Straw has run out of issues . He seems to forget that his job is to represent the interest/s of his constituents - veiled or otherwise. And that they can vote him out, at the next available opportunity, if he failed to do that. The veil represents a protection to a chaste woman from the lustful and evil eyes of lewd men and women. Jack straw is no angel ! My suggestion? Jack Straw needs to take a basic course in Islam - Islam 101 - so he understand that the veil ( a form of protection from unwanted attention ) is not required for Jack to meet his mother, wife, sister or a daughter because he is not a potential source of damage for them. For all other women in his presence, even for a justifiable need of communication, Islam commands a strict code of conduct lest this woman - the one who is charged with the honour of giving birth to the humanity- be tarnished in any way whatsoever.
The Wayfarer, NY
16 - Donnie Marler
Perhaps he should, Muhammad. Perhaps all Muslims should be required to take courses in assimilating into the culture in which they've chosen to live as well.
17 - Maria
Darleen, The veil is NOT "a public symbol of humiliation" In my opinion a woman who is almost naked in a magazine is a symbol of humiliation for women. A veil isnt meant to degrade women, it's meant for just the opposite. I think it is completely disrespecting women when you put them on a billboard almost naked as opposed to women wearing a veil. If you think America doesnt disrespect women, you must be blind. look around, look at all of the women who are ogled upon and looked at each day in the most disrespectful manner. By the way, Pakistan is a Muslim country, and they had a female president in power. THAT is how women are equal, not how much skin women show.
18 - Maria
Donnie, culture has nothing to do with wearing a scarf. just because I live in America and I was born here doesnt mean I'm going to prance around in a miniskirt because that is what conforming to an American Society means. There are plenty of people from India who wear saris in downtown dc. Why are we not questioning what they are wearing? Is it because you can still see their faces? Why is covering your face any different than wearing something besides American clothes?
19 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
Darleen: 'The freedom to engage in a particular behavior does not preclude the ability of others to judge whether that behavior is good/bad/appropriate/moral/immoral.'
It doesn't - I explicitly said that, if he thought there was an issue, Jack Straw had not only the right but the duty to to raise it. I think he was wrong not because he rasied it, but because of what he raised.
'The "choice" to wear the veil or burka in Western society is wrong. Period.'
Why, though? I assume you must have a very good reason, in order to criticise someone for apparently harmlessly exercising their right to freedom of expression.
'This has nothing to do with "Islamophobia", but with the sloppy "progressive" thinking that stops all discussion with the line "we must be tolerant and respectful of other cultures."'
We should be tolerant and respectful of other cultures that aren't harming us and that aren't breaking the laws of our society. Of course, being tolerant and respectful does not rule out criticism, but no-one said it did.
'The veil is a public symbol of humiliation. It is demeaning. That a female chooses to publicly demean herself doesn't lessen that humiliation'.
Firstly, of course it does, byt anyway; why do you get to decide what the veil is a symbol of? What if I decide that your trainers are a symbol of public humiliation. Does that mean you should take them off? All those women who choose to wear the veil because they feel comfortable in it...who are you to tell them that no, actually, what they're doing is publicly humiliating themselves, and would they please stop?
'This isn't a headscarf or wearing long sleeves or other modest clothing. This is a public statement that a woman is so shamefully different from a man she has to hide her face in public.'
No, it's a public statement, mostly, that the woman wants to wear a veil and feels free to do so. That is a good thing. Now, I'm not saying there aren't cases where women feel forced to wear the veil, and that is obviously a bad thing. But where they want to...it is a symbol of nothing less than free expression.
'A female may choose genital mutilation on "cultural" grounds... does that mean we cannot have an opinion that such choice is wrong?'
There is, of course, a difference. Self-harm due to indoctrination is one thing; a fashion choice is quite another. The difference is suffering; genital mutilation causes huge suffering, whereas wearing a piece of cloth over your head is completely harmless.
Binny: Thanks.
roxsana: 'In the UK, the official religion is Christianity.'
Erm...so? Unlike S. Arabia, the UK is a secular society, and that's something I'm extremely thankful for. It means that Christians, with their crazy cultish beliefs and practises, have no more influence on me than other religions, with their crazy cultish beliefs and practises. But as long as they don't try and impose those practises on me, that's fine. It's great that, unlike Saudi Arabia, here in the UK we have a multi-cultural society that, in theory, allows people to follow their own cultures as long as it doesn't break the common law. Are you saying you want the UK to become like S. Arabia??
'herefore if I as a Christian ask a Moslem woman to respect my beliefs and remove her veil while we talk, should she not do so?'
No, she shouldn't, because in the UK we don't value Christians higher than Muslims. And, again, that is a very very good thing.
'Or do Moslems in the UK actually believe that their religion is superior and the rest of us should make all the concessions they demand while they make none?'
Hang on, let me get this straight. So by daring to cover their bodies with cloth, Muslims are declaring their religion is superior and are demanding you make concessions? What? I suppose that by daring to breathe or pray in their own homes, they are demanding you make concessions too. That's ludicrous.
'his is not just dismissive of our religion but also rude and offensive on a personal level.'
It's not dismissive of 'our' religion, but even if it was...so what? I'm dismissive of all religion, and that's OK. As to offensive and rude...you can't be quite sure it was intended that way, and so the issue is, as I say, not with the veil but with people like you who for some reason get offended by it.
vanessa: "This is a sad reality of it all - anything new and alien will always be intimdating. So, let's educate! "
Exactly!
'It is just easy to talk to someone face to face. And as a non-expert in Muslim religion, I do not know the significance of the Veil for muslim women. But one thing is for sure, it is making them a separate group and is causing discomfort among normal people while interacting with Veiled women.'
Yes, it is causing discomfort among some people (I wouldn't say 'normal' people...), but the problem is with them, not the woman wearing the veil. Yes, it might be easier to talk to someone face-to-face if you aren't used to talking to someone with a veil. The solution? Get used to talking to someone with a veil!
As to the separate group...yes, veil wearing women are marked out as Muslims, which is a separate group from non-Muslims. So? We all belong to many different groups. When I wear a Liverpool FC t-shirt, I'm marking my self out in a separate group. When Hindus wear those red dots on their foreheads (can't remember the name) or Christians wear crosses or jews wear kippas, or when school children wear school uniforms...they're all marking themselves out as part of a separate group. Society can function with many different groups, as long as all those groups abide by the common law.
If by 'separate' you mean isolated, then perhaps, but again that is more to do with people being uncomfortable with veils than the veils themselves.
'But I am against Jack Straw's idea of not allowing Muslim women in veil to his office.'
I would be too, but he does allow women to wear veils in his office. He requests that they remove it, but are completely free to decline, as he makes sure to point out to them.
anila: 'it is a political statement, a way of spitting in the face of this country and it's history.'
Why?
Bliffle: 'Nonsense. Muslims are trying to impose their peculiar customs, one at a time, on western society.'
Of course they aren't. They aren't trying to make you wear a veil, are they? When you put on a baseball cap, are you imposing your sense of fashion on others? No, because you aren't trying to make others wear baseball caps too.
'Next we will hear that muslim policemen in London refuse to stand guard duty at the Israeli, or any other, embassy or institution.'
It's not the same at all, but anyway - the policemen in question did not request to be moved because of political or religious beliefs, but because he feared for the safety of his family in Lebanon. Which is absolutely perfectly reasonable.
anon: 'he word literally means "undue fear of Islam" but today it is used to mean "prejudice against Muslims"'
I used it to mean 'undue fear of Islam' which is the correct meaning, even if the former often leads to the latter.
'Currently the canard is that it preserves the modesty of a woman - which is utter bullshit, a half-assed excuse for ensuring male dominance by imposing its symbol, the veil/burqa, on women to remind them they are nothing more than chattel & second class citizens.'
You're missing something. There is no need for a 'canard', because Muslim women do not need to justify their decision to wear a veil to you or anyone else. It doesn't matter if you think its bullshit, although if you do then go ahead and say so. You, like them, have a right to free expression. But don't take it upon yourself to tell them what and what not to do, for they have as little reason to warp their lifestyle to fit your views as you do theirs.
'This may be the law & custom in the arab/muslim states, but it isn't in Britain or the US or any other western nation. Westerners try for the most part to respect customs of the middle eastern nations; middle easterners can damn well start to respect the customs & laws of the western countries they migrate to - and that includes dropping the veil/burqa as well as adhering to western notions of law & order, and not the barbarism that reigns back in the pissholes they come from.'
Is that what you call 'respecting' Middle Eastern customs? Pissholes? Ignoring that, you are correct to demand that people who move to the UK (as everyone else who lives here) should respect our laws. They should respect our customs, just as we should respect theirs. They don't have to OBEY our customs, just as we don't have to OBEY theirs. See?
'They should NOT be expecting the west & everyone in it to conform to them
They aren't. You're the one expecting others to conform to your views.
Ruvy: 'Noting as I do that the identifiably Moslem women here do not seem to think that a veil confers "freedom" as it were, what has me curious is why the Heathlander, who, to my knowledge, is not a Moslem or a believer of any variety, undertakes its vehement defense?'
Firstly, there have been maybe two or three Muslim commenters here - not necessarily representative. There obviously are many Muslim women in Britain, the majority according to Ruth Kelly and others, who want to wear a veil even though they do not feel coerced. If that is the case, it doesn't matter if you point to a billion other Muslim women who hate the veil, because all that matters is that those women who choose to wear one not out of coercion have the right to do so, and shouldn't be pestered not to.
As to why I chose to right the article...well, I suppose we could conduct a four-hour long discussion analysing my possible motives and reasons and blah blah but I don't really want to. I think we should focus not on me but on the wordses.
A_Name: Islamophobia, by definition, is unwarranted, and at any rate the veil has nothing to do with Bali/London/9.11 etc.
Adam: 'You make no mention of the security issue.'
I make no mention of it because that was not a reason put forth by Jack Straw or any of the other commentators I read. I don't think it is much of an issue; we seemed to have found ways to manage so far. If it really is one, then that's something else. I'm talking about whether Muslim women have a principle right to wear a veil, whether it is a help or hindrance to multi-culturalism here in the UK and whether Jack Straw was right to ask them to remove it because it marks them out as separate and makes him, and others, feel uncomfortable.
p-air: 'Their wearing of the veil could indeed come not fm simple social pressure but fm fear and we would need to get to the root of that issue too.'
It certainly could, and if fear or coercion has anything to do with it, it is completely wrong and should be stopped. That is the case with most things. I took the words of politicians and journalists and the Muslim women to whom I quoted as fact when they said that the majority of women in the UK wear the veil because they want to. Certainly, very few of the girls that went to my school (about 40% of which was comprised of Muslims - I went to school in Hounslow) seemed to be wearing the veil of fear, although undoubtedly some were. That's why I make the constant qualification; I'm only talking about women who wear it out of choice free from coercion and fear.
20 - Bliffle
"'Next we will hear that muslim policemen in London refuse to stand guard duty at the Israeli, or any other, embassy or institution.'
It's not the same at all, but anyway - the policemen in question did not request to be moved because of political or religious beliefs, but because he feared for the safety of his family in Lebanon."
"...he feared for the safety of his family in Lebanon."
Really? Who did he fear? The English? The Israelis?
21 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
No, he feared they would be targeted by radical Islamist group if it was found out that their son was guardin 'the enemy'.
22 - Bliffle
Oh. So he feared recriminations if he did his civic duty? Thus, the islamic rabble of Lebanon creates civil policy in London. How odd that anyone would consider that legitimate.
23 - Nancy
Indications are, based on interviews by various western female journalists with 'native' muslim women, that they wear the veil because if they don't, muslim men will either rape them, beat the crap out of them, or kill them. Some 'freedom', huh? If burqas conferred privacy and security, then why don't we see men rushing to put it on, hmmm? This is typical muslim gender control & harrassment of women, nothing else, and no amount of muslim blather & lies by the muslim males can justify it or cover that fact up. Overwhelmingly, where muslim women have been given the opportunity to ditch the burqa, they have done so. Look at Afghanistan. Women threw their burqas away by the truckloads, and only resumed them when the Taliban came back & forced them to put them on again. Perhaps the west should offer muslim women sanctuary, and ship all muslim males over the age of 5 back to point of origin. Muslims - the men, that is - are nothing more than a rabble of culturally barbarian bullies, and always have been.
24 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Something tells me, Jamie, that for all your spririted defense of the "freedom" of Moslem women to wear the veil, that Nancy has it on the money. In many places, if Moslem women do not wear the veil, they fear being raped, beaten or worse... I have not seen Arab women wearing a veil in Israel and I think I understand why.
Ah, freedom in a multicultural society. Isn't it lovely?
25 - Jamie Stern-Weiner
Bliffle: It is entirely reasonable for someone to simply request that they be moved for fear of the safety of their family. Of course, if that request is then refused he is under obligation to serve duty nonetheless, but if the same job can be performed by someone else then it makes no sense to put someone in harm's way unecessarily.
Nancy/Ruvy: As we've already noted, things a quite different in Afghanistan then here. In Afghanistan and countries like it, the oppression of Muslim women by men is far more widespread and socially acceptable, and yes, the veil has historically been used as a tool for oppression in these countries. Consequently, it is unsurprising that when given the chance, the women chose to embrace their new found freedom by getting rid of their veils.
In Britain, there's a different picture. While oppression and subordination of women still goes on, it is less frequent, and there are definitely women here who wear the veil out of choice, because they feel comfortable in it or whatever. In fact, these women would seem to be in the majority. As to interviews, I've provided a link in the article to BBC interviews of 4 Muslim women none of whom support Straw's stance on this. In the Independent article I linked to, but on the paper version (it isn't on the internet, for some reason), there were interview of three Muslim British women, and either two of three (cnt remember) of these disagreed with Straw's stance. So if we're talking about interviews, all the evidence I see points to the fact that there are women in the UK who wear the veil because they truly want to. The question is, should they, and should we take it upon ourselves to ask them not to? I gave my answer in the article above.